March 18, 2025 • 32 mins
On this episode, we will hear from Mark Blumenthal, the founder and executive director of the American Botanical Council (ABC). The ABC has been at the forefront of education about medicinal plants, protecting endangered species and promoting the effective use of herbal medicine for over 50 years. Join us to hear from this amazing trailblazer in herbalism.
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Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to five to Thrive Live. I'm doctor Lisau Schuler,
and I'm happy to have you join us tonight. Five
to five Live is a podcast about thriving for those
who have been affected by cancer and chronic disease, and
I co host the show with my good friend Carolyn Gazella.
You can find all of our past show podcasts on
any major podcast outlet, as well as a schedule on
(01:03):
our website, which is ithriveplan dot com. So tonight I'm
going to be talking with Mark Blumenthal, who is the
founder and the executive director of the American Botanical Council
or ABC. This is a leading independent research and educational
nonprofit dedicated to dissemining, disseminating accurate, reliable, and responsible information
(01:26):
on herbs and medicinal plants, edible and medicinal fungi. Mister
Blumenthal is the editor in chief and publisher of Herbal Graham,
which is ABC's international peer reviewed quarterly journal. He's been
a busy man. He's appeared on more than four hundred
radio and television shows. He's written more than five hundred articles, reviews,
(01:47):
and book chapters forwards. He's frequently quoted in the media.
He's been doing this for over fifty years. He's really
a leader in the global botanical and natural products community,
really at the kind of the champion, champion of science
based herbal education, research, ethnobotany, sustainable regenerative practices. So I'm
(02:10):
delighted to have him on the show this evening. We're
going to get to him in a moment, but before
we do, I'm going to thank our sponsors, and those
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more at doctor Ohira Probiotics dot com. So Mark, welcome
to five to Thrive Live.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Howdy Lison, thank you so much for inviting me to
join you.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Of course, so you know you've been involved with herbs
medicinal plants for over fifty years, which is really remarkable,
and I mean, what led you into this in the
very ny How did you get so interested in Nerbs.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I graduated from college in nineteen sixty eight. It was
the height of the builder for the Vietnam War and
also the height of the anti war activity for many
of us. And I was involved with that. And you know,
it was during the Vietnam War and they were going
to abolish the graduate school deferments for many of us
graduating seniors just three months before we were graduating and
(04:25):
planning on going on to graduate school. I planned to
go to grad school and or law school. And I
guess is one good thing about the Vietnam War, it
is one less lawyer in the world because I did so,
no chief shotting, a lot of good friends at the lawyers.
But I was going to grad school and you know,
study political science, philosophy or law, and you know, I
(04:47):
had to start thinking about what am I really going
to do. I was just on the cusp of being
twenty two years old, and like a lot of people
back then, you were just trying to think of what
are our values? What do we really believe in? And
I really realized that at that time that life is sacred.
A human life is sacred, and then I eventually extended
it to animal life too, and I realized that I
could not kill an animal by looking in its eyes
(05:09):
and saying, I really need to kill you to feed
myself or feed my family, even though I didn't have
one at the time. So I just decided to become
a vegetarian and started going to what we're called health
food stores. Back then, we didn't have the so called
natural food stores and the whole foods type markets we
have today. And there were pill shops mainly, and that
contained foods for special dietary purposes, like people for low
(05:32):
sodium diets, you know, for people who had kidney diseases
or hypertension or whatever, and so there were special foods.
You can only get vited. You couldn't get vitamin C
even in a drug store back then. Hardly you can
get yogurt in a grocery store. You had to go
to a health food store for that whole week bread.
These are things that we take for granted, but back
in those days, you had to go to a health
(05:53):
food store. So I started going. I saw a whole
wall of these herbal teas, and I didn't recognize any
except peppermin and Cameo mile and books on historical folkloric
uses of medicinal plants, which fascinated me, as well as
books on foraging for wild edible plants, and that became
a hobby for me. I started reading these books about
you know plants and how they can be used as
(06:14):
food as well as medicine, and I just got hooked
on you know medicinal plants. And I ended up living
on a commune up near Tous, New Mexico, in seventy
and seventy one, off the grid, no electricity, no water
for several years until I moved back to Austin in
seventy two, and out of all that, I started eventually
an herb company with a friend of mine, wholesaling herbs
(06:35):
and just got into the business of herbs and later
got more involved with the idea of research, education and
advocacy and infrastructure for the herbal community and helped found
some herbal organizations that have grown into various organizations, including
my former newsletter Irbal Graham, which became my peer review journal,
(06:56):
and the American Botanical Council, which I founded as a
vehicle to take the then newsletter Erbo Graham and turn
it into a scientific American style for color, peer reviewed,
credible journal, but a readable journal on medicinal plants. So
that's kind of how my trajectory evolved.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah. Wow, Well you come by this honestly then, is
what I would say. And yeah, so you know you've
been publishing erbal Graham for all over forty years. It's
a beautiful it's a beautiful publication. First of all, the
photographs are amazing, and the articles are really quite good.
I know, they're all peer reviewed and very scientific but
(07:38):
informative at the same time. How would you characterize the
herbal Graham and you know, how's it different? What role
does it play in this world of natural healthcare?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Well, thank you, And our entire website at rbalgraham dot
org is based on rbal Graham, but we have some
in our organization. Rblegraham dot org is based originally on
Erbograham and a lot of the projects and programs that
evolved with the America Botanical Council that we have, you know,
quite a few different publications and other programs which we
may or get into, all evolved from the pages of
(08:08):
herbal Gram by reporting on various issues regarding quality control
and regulation and the need for better regulation on herbs.
Back in the day when there was really no appropriate regulation,
you know, scientific research to reporting on clinical trials, most
of them coming out of Germany and Western Europe back
in this eighties and nineties, when there was no clinical
(08:28):
research going on in the United States, and doctors and
other health professionals were just totally clueless about the amount
of research going on around the world, scientific research on herbs.
So a lot of what we did reported on in
Erbalgram eventually became programs or projects of ABC as the
organization evolved as a vehicle to take originally Erbograham as
a newsletter and turn it into a scientific American style
(08:51):
or National geographic. We've been called the National Geographic of herbs,
and I'm grateful for that, and I'm not saying whether
we are anywhere near that, but other people have called
that to us. Matter of fact that one of the
nicest letters I ever got one time was a Christmas
time somebody sent us a nice donation. They said, you know,
my wife and I we recycle all our magazines except
for two, National Geographic and Herbal Graham. And you know,
(09:14):
I figured out, okay, we've arrived, because, as you pointed out,
erbal Graham is a beautiful publication. And part of the
issue of communicating the value of herbs is communicating the
beauty of the plants. And for many years we relied
on our good friend the late Stephen Foster, who was
a botanist, article a researcher, an author, and one of
(09:36):
the world's premier photographers on herbs and medicinal plants. And
we have just acquired the entire collection of this by
the way of his photography, over one hundred and fifty
thousand images of over seventeen hundred properly botanically identified medicinal
plants that have adorned the pages of our magazine for
close to forty years, and over sixty five covers of
(09:59):
our magazine. We're now publishing issue number one forty three
in a few weeks to this quarterly so and many
of the covers come from Stephen's incredible photography. So the
idea of presenting the science and having things peer reviewed
and having it being accurate and responsible and reliable and
authoritative coincides with are wanting people to appreciate the beauty
(10:21):
and the color and the morphology of herbs and medicinal
and aromatic plants.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, well, well said beautiful, and I'm so glad you
have his collection of photographs because they're really quite extraordinary. So,
you know, this American Botanical Council nonprofit that you founded
in nineteen ninety eight has, I would argue, and I'm
sure you would humbly agree, really served an important role
in not only herbalism and medicinal you know, the use
(10:51):
of medicinal plants, but ethnopharmacognacy, botany. Like maybe if you
could just describe how you have with all of those disciplines, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Thank you. Actually we were found in nineteen eighty eight,
and Erbogram the poem found in nineteen eighty three. But
just to be clear, eight nineteen eighty eighth, I started
Erbograham as a vehicle to take I started ABC as
a vehicle to take Erbogram from newsletter to magazine journal
level and then everything else throughout from that. You know,
there's a science called pharmacognity, which you're well aware of,
(11:24):
and pharma cognity is a little known science outside of
the pharmacy profession, and even inside the pharmacy profession. Now
it's pretty much moribund, but it used to be required
for all pharmacists graduating from the seventy two or seventy
five schools of pharmacy. Back then in the United States,
they often called it weeds and seeds. It no longer required,
has been overtaken by medicinal chemistry, but pharmacognocy was the
(11:48):
study of drugs of natural origin, pharmaceutical drugs that come
from plants or in some cases animals, but mostly from plants,
and that science has evolved in the early late nineteenth century,
early twentieth century, and then has kind of moved into
more medicinal chemistry because there's more focused on the chemistry
(12:11):
than the plants. But even then about different surveys will
tell you different answers, but at least twenty five percent
of our modern medicines still are derived directly or indirectly
from medicinal plants, and up to fifty percent may still
be plant derived in the sense that the chemistry of
the drug is often artificially or synthesized to mimic a
(12:36):
naturally occurring plant compound, and they artificially make it because
they can make it cheaper than collecting the plant or
growing the plant and all that kind of stuff. So
pharmacognitcy is a very foundational science to legitimate herbal medicine
and the use of herbs and medicinal plants in modern
medicine and pharmacy. You mentioned ethnopharmacology, which is a cousin
(12:58):
of ethnobotany, which is a study of how native and
indigenous cultures utilize plants in their their their native area
and are they trade with other groups of people of
the tribes or groups of clans from other parts of
the world where they trade back and forth. So ethnobodany
(13:19):
is a study of how people evolved with plants and
utilize them for food, for fiber, for shelter, for fragrance,
for magic and ritual as well as for medicine and color,
et cetera. All the different ways that people evolved over
the last one hundred thousand years or more with using
the plants around them or trading for them. Ethno Pharmacology
and medical botany is basically the subset of ethnobotany where
(13:43):
you study primarily the medicinal uses of plants in a
native and indigenous cultures. So these are part of their
foundational to modern herbal medicine, whether that whether you're a
traditional herbalist or you're a naturopathic physician going to one
of the four year accredited postgraduate schools of medicine that
(14:04):
are that produce naturalropathy degrees, which you have done, fortunately
and which I respect very very greatly. And you know,
even for people in the area of pharmacy and in medicine,
the little bit of medicinal plant training that they might
get is based on a ethnobotany and pharmacognity. So these
are the primary foundational sciences that deal with underpinning herbal medicine.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, and I think that that was a really nice
and important description because you linked closely conventional medicine pharmacy
with plants, and you know, they are still as relevant
now as they have been for as long as humans
have been on this planet. And I think that's an
important thing for people to kind of think about. And
(14:52):
remember there's been a lot of changes, of course, so
one of the things that's happened is there has been
a pluripher a proliferation of products, plants based products, and
with that comes, you know, a continuum of quality. And
the American Botanical Council has addressed this in lots of ways.
(15:12):
One of the ways that you've addressed this is through
the Botanical Adulterance Prevention Program or BAP. And so tell
us a little bit about what PAP.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Is, and before I do that, if I may, and
may go back one step further, one step again, and
just to say that herbs and medicinal plants are baked
into modern pharmacy and medicine through the use of the
origin of the word drug, because the word drug comes
from an old Dutch word drogue, which means to dry,
because they dried plants to save them for use as medicines.
(15:43):
And the word drought has the same derivation. The origin
of the word drought. The origin of the word drug
comes the word dry in German or Dutch, so it's
a drug, is really a dried plant used for medicinal purposes.
Originally that was the original use of the term drug.
So that's where it comes from. By the way, Now
many herbs today are stold in the marketplace as food,
(16:06):
a certain category of foods called dietary supplements. And that's
because in nineteen ninety four, Congress pass to the Dietary
Supplement Health and Education Act in nineteen ninety four, because
there was misregulation and lack of rational regulation by the
Food and Drug Administration back that time, and herbs it
had no place to be safe harbor to be sold
in the marketplace because if anything was sold for any
(16:28):
health purposes, FDA automatically interpreted or misinterpreted as being a drug.
And if you didn't spend the fifty million dollars back
then is what it costs to get a new drug approved,
you know, you couldn't market it. And that was not
going to ever happen. What's happened is there's been a
proliferation and there's thousands and thousands of different products on
the market because it's relatively easy barrier to entry to
get into the market and sell various herbal dietary supplements
(16:50):
or non urbal supplements, whether it's fish oil or whatever.
And the fact of the matter is some of these
products are adulterated and by adult altered in this case,
I mean that they are not what they claim to
be on the label. They are mislabeled a number one
by accident. They may have the wrong stuff in them,
(17:11):
or something that shouldn't be in there in there. But
more likely, and this is the problem, more likely they
are guilty of or the people selling them are guilty
of what's called economically motivated adulteration. That is, people have
intentionally changed what's in the bottle compared to what's on
the label and what the consumer thinks they're getting, or
(17:33):
what the pharmacist or the naturopath or the herbalist things
they're recommending because somebody's cheating. And this goes back thousands
of years. One of the best articles that we have
re published, I think foundationally and intentionally when we started
our Botanical Adulterance Prevention program fourteen years ago, the first
of now ninety two peer reviewed articles that are freely
(17:54):
accessible on the ABC website at Herbalgraham dot org. The
first article that was by the late Stephen Foster, the
photographer we mentioned a moment ago, was called a Brief
History of Adulteration of herbs, spices, and medicinal plants or
plant drugs. And the point is we went back to
Greco Roman times two thousand years ago and documented all
(18:19):
these different instances of when people were intentionally selling X
and calling it Y, or removing something from X, or
adding sand to the cinnamon or whatever to increase the weight.
All the different ways that people cheated in the marketplace.
So our Botanical Adulterence Prevention Program, known by its acronym
(18:40):
bat BAPP, the world's largest nonprofit research and education consortium
dealing with trying to help the responsible members of the
urban medicinal plant community internationally know what stuff is being adulterated,
(19:00):
how it's being adulterated, what the evidence is that shows
that proves that it's subject to adulteration, and how they
can protect themselves by using proper appropriate fit for purpose
laboratory analytical methods to identify adulteration and or authenticate and
assure the identity of whatever product ingredients they're putting in
(19:22):
their products. Because there are many, many high quality companies
that are reliable, that are run by very ethical people
who care about the quality of the ingredients they sell.
They care about the way they're processed, the way they
care about the way they're packaged and marketed, and they
care about the consumers effect the consumers experience when taking
these products, usually for their health benefit. And then there's
(19:44):
other companies that are more sometimes in it for the
money only and they may be less committed to the
type of rigorous quality control that's necessary. We're making this
information available about what herbs are being subject to adulteration,
which is an ancient, ancient problem. It's not a model issue.
It's both. It's been around a long time. We're making
that information available to help protect the responsible members of
(20:07):
the community so they don't get victimized by the scrupulous
sellers of fraudulent material. Right.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, it's really important because you know, one of the
things that people sometimes might experience is they have the
right herb for the right thing, but they don't have
a good quality product. So then they come away thinking, ah,
herbs don't work. It's as old medicine, you know, let
me move on to more modern options, whereas in fact,
(20:34):
sometimes the real issue there is the quality of the
herb or the herbal product. Yeah, okay, well, I'm glad
you've taken the lead on this really important issue. And
I guess sort of related to this issue is sustainability.
You know, I'm getting more and more concerned about sustainability
with the growing demand from medicinal herbs, and I'm just wondering,
(20:57):
what do you think is our current herbal global verbal
market sustainable? And you know, there are more and more
plans to get added to the endangered plant list, like,
how do you see this working itself out?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Thank you for asking that. Twenty eighteen and we took
on a project called the Sustainable Herbs Project for five
and a half years. We've helped build it up and
incubated it and as now, as of July, the summer
of twenty twenty four, we spun off until now it's
called Sustainable RBS Initiative and they have their own website
and I encourage people to check it out, and we're
(21:32):
building another website, another page on our website about sustainability.
And the point of this is that we are very
concerned that companies get the proper guidance and education on
how to sustainably harvest or access or source their herbal material.
(21:53):
Much of these herbal materials are coming from underdeveloped countries.
A lot of them are picked from the wild, so
there's a sustainability issue just from wild harvesting. More and
more of these herbal products are being actually cultivated in
small farms as well as large farms, depending on whatever
it is and where the farming is happening. So there
(22:14):
is a whole industry involved with just sourcing the plant
material that goes into herbal teas that goes into capsules
and capsules and tablets as far as herbal powders, or
are extracted with water or alcohol or other solvents to
make dry or liquid her herbal products, herbal extracts and
(22:35):
then again sold as liquids and or sold as the
solid doses farms as tablets or capsules, or put into
food products, or put into cosmetic products. Even so, there's
a whole, huge and ancient trade going on around the world,
and it's a global economy in this and of course
because of rising sea levels on coastal areas and changes
(22:57):
in climate, there are concerns about not all the availability
of some of these plants, but also the changes in
weather pattern can also change the actual chemistry of certain plants.
People in China have indicated in certain cases, and we
published an article about this years ago, that tea from
certain areas taste different because the growing conditions shift, and
(23:20):
when growing conditions shift for a plant, sometimes the chemistry
of the plant will shift also when it's harvested. Because
plant chemistry, as you well know, is there in the
plant as what we call secondary plant metabolites to help
with the protection of the plant against herbivorous insects and
or the encroachment from other plants. So sun, the amount
(23:43):
of sun, the amount of soil, amount of rain, and
other climatic conditions can affect the actual balance of certain
chemistry in the plants, which can affect they're not only
their flavor in the case of teeth, but also affect
their medicinal effect based on the nutrients and or pharmacologically
active plant chemicals that we harvest the plant for for
(24:03):
its entirety and or for certain extracts. So these things
are subject to change with weather patterns changing, So there's
all kinds of angles that are important on sustainability. It's
not just about the plant itself, but it's the quality
of the plant that you're getting. And also it's about
the people involved in the value network. And instead of
(24:26):
saying supply chain, we'd like to say value network and
supply chain is so linear and really if you look
at it, it's like a root system. It's a network
of people all along the way, especially at the beginning,
and we want to honor them and try to ensure
that they get adjusted in living an appropriate wage for
their good works, which makes these plant materials available to us.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, so important, and I'm glad you tied in the
climate changes and the impact that has. These are all
things we need to address for lots of reasons, this
just being one of them. So you know, that's one
way herbalism has changed since you first started. And I
want to just sort of ask kind of blend two
(25:09):
intended questions into one. You've launched a new program called
herb TV, and wondering if you could tell us a
little bit about that and if that somehow perhaps relates
to just sort of trends and things that are happening
in herbalism.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Let's look at a trend. According to a twenty twenty
two survey, ninety two percent of American adults or Americans
using the Internet used YouTube. Ninety two percent of Internet
users go to YouTube at least once or more times.
So we have a YouTube channel. It's called herb TV.
There's no dot, it's herb tv htrb TV. Right now,
(25:46):
we have about several hundred videos on there, and we're
adding new ones every week. These are videos that some
of which we inherited from a good friend named David
la Luzerne, a pharmacist turned herbalist up in Madison, Wisconsin
who started taking videos and documenting herbal lectures and herb
walks and very many famous herbalists. And then when he
(26:07):
retired a few years ago, he still acted by the
way in the local sustainability and environmental community just got
out of it sold he had two herb stores. He
got rid of his pharmacies and turned him into herb stores.
Now he's gotten rid of those. But Dave Loluzern great guy,
and he donated some three hundred or more different video
interviews on video digital tape to ABC for us to
(26:31):
have and we decided, well, okay, we have to deal
with COVID. It been in the last five years, but
we eventually got this off the ground and herb TV
was something he already had, but we just didn't have
the bandwidth and the resources that we put a lot
of time and energy in which we're starting to do now.
So we're going to be producing and we are producing
our own videos. We have a ten or twelve minute
(26:51):
video on Milkwhistle, Broccoli, oshwagandha tonkat Ali and Saw Palmeto.
Those are the first five videos that we've done, about
ten minutes each, which are non commercial videos that basically
deal with various aspects of each of these herbs and
their benefits, their uses, their science, their traditional use, et cetera.
And then we're also we're going to be making more
(27:11):
of our own in housemade videos, but also we're aggregating
video from other sources, from friends and colleagues that have
a trove of video content that they're making available to us.
So Rosemary Glasstar has offered some to us, our good
friend Chris Killum has offered some video to us. So
this is going to become not just an ABC outlet,
(27:34):
but it's also going to become a portal where is
becoming a portal for all kinds of herb related video content.
So a wide variety of educational opportunities for people, all free.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Fantastic, So great to hear it. Okay, so we just
have a couple of minutes left and I would love
to give you the chance. I'm going to ask you
to share your websites with us, But first, any final
thoughts you'd like to leave with our listeners.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well, I think that it's important. For first of all,
thanks for having me on. I really appreciate this. I've
always admired your energy and your clarity of your commitment
to natural medicine, and as a big fan of yours.
And I know that you haven't said this, but you've
been a very honored and welcome member of the ABC
Advisory Board for probably twenty years or maybe maybe longer,
I don't know, So thank you for that. Appreciate you
(28:21):
and some of the period review you've done for some
of our articles. I think the important thing here is
that you know herbs work. Bottom line, herbs work. You
know it, I know it. Many people listening right now
know it as well. Some people do not know as
well as we do, but we know that they work.
So we have a default commitment and a bias toward
herbs what we're doing at ABC. When we first started,
you know, herbs didn't get much respect. That were considered
(28:43):
folkl or old wives tales, to put it in a
misogynistic majority of back in the day. You know, we're
showing people that there is good, good, documented clinical research
and science showing the safety and benefits of numerous herbal
products long they are made properly, et cetera. And our
goal is to help increase the public awareness, whether it's consumers,
(29:06):
health professionals, researchers, journalists, government employees, that there is an
appropriate role for herbal medicine and herbal medicinal products, whether
it be dietary sepments or herbal drug products or both
and more. There's a legitimate and appropriate play for these
things as part of good self care and good health care.
(29:28):
Let's remember self medication requires self education. We're part of
the way to help educate people so that they become
educated users of how to employ these herbs rationally into
a very holistic, but robust and healthcare regimen, and herbs
(29:49):
are part of that, especially when you consider the fact
that herbs, like the adaptogens are here to help increase
our wellness and increase our robustness, our piece of our vitality,
increase our immune syste and function. Conventional medicine doesn't have
anything in this category.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, so fantastic final hurrah for herbs. I'm right there
with you, and I just want to thank you Mark
for your you know, one hundred percent dedication to plants
and to people. And what is the website that you
can share with our listeners so they can learn more
about the American Botanical.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Council Herbalgraham dot org, h g R B A, l
g R A M dot org. If you go to
erblegrahamdaughter dot org, Herbalgraham dot org and you register, we'll
send you a free newsletter every Tuesday afternoon called Herbalnews
and Events. It's totally free and it has all kinds
of information about HERB conferences, ORB webinars, like eight or
(30:45):
ten articles from the week, the news around the world
in the last week. That's herb centric and et cetera.
So tons of free information at Herbalgraham dot org. Where
at member based organization, we thrive on membership, we thrive
on donations, and yet we also have about twenty percent
of our content is freely accessible to the general public.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Well, thank you, thank you so much, and that wraps
up this episode of five to Thrive Live Again. I
want to thank our sponsors. Set you a Glutathion, the
superior glued to ion to support liver and immune health.
Cognizance Ofticoline to help enhance memory, focus and attention, Doctor
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(31:28):
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listener for joining us. May you experience joy, laughter and love.
It's time to thrive. Everyone, have a great night. Sinks
(32:04):
in us.
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to five to Thrive Live. I'm doctor Lisau Schuler,
and I'm happy to have you join us tonight. Five
to five Live is a podcast about thriving for those
who have been affected by cancer and chronic disease, and
I co host the show with my good friend Carolyn Gazella.
You can find all of our past show podcasts on
any major podcast outlet, as well as a schedule on
(01:03):
our website, which is ithriveplan dot com. So tonight I'm
going to be talking with Mark Blumenthal, who is the
founder and the executive director of the American Botanical Council
or ABC. This is a leading independent research and educational
nonprofit dedicated to dissemining, disseminating accurate, reliable, and responsible information
(01:26):
on herbs and medicinal plants, edible and medicinal fungi. Mister
Blumenthal is the editor in chief and publisher of Herbal Graham,
which is ABC's international peer reviewed quarterly journal. He's been
a busy man. He's appeared on more than four hundred
radio and television shows. He's written more than five hundred articles, reviews,
(01:47):
and book chapters forwards. He's frequently quoted in the media.
He's been doing this for over fifty years. He's really
a leader in the global botanical and natural products community,
really at the kind of the champion, champion of science
based herbal education, research, ethnobotany, sustainable regenerative practices. So I'm
(02:10):
delighted to have him on the show this evening. We're
going to get to him in a moment, but before
we do, I'm going to thank our sponsors, and those
include Cetria, which is a patented form of glutathione which
increases blood glutathione levels. It's a master antioxidant in the
body's primary defense against free radicals, and it also helps
(02:32):
to support respiratory health, and you can learn more at
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that helps your brain to produce more energy, which in
turn improves your brain's function, memory, focus, and attention. So
look for Cognizant on the label of a brain support
(02:52):
formula or go to Cognizant dot com for more information.
We also thank pro Thrivers wellness supplements, including Thriver's Wellness Brain,
which contains Cognizant as well as some other brain supporting
nutrients and herbs, and you can find pro Thriver's Wellness
Brain online at Pureformulas dot com. You can also look
for pro Thrivers Wellness Sleep, which is a supplement that
(03:14):
combines higher dose melatonin and some other sleep supporting natural
ingredients specifically designed for thrivers. And finally, doctor or Hero Probiotics,
a best selling probiotic for over thirty years, contains twelve
probiotic strains which are shelf stable without refrigeration due to
a unique three year fermentation process, and you can learn
(03:37):
more at doctor Ohira Probiotics dot com. So Mark, welcome
to five to Thrive Live.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Howdy Lison, thank you so much for inviting me to
join you.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Of course, so you know you've been involved with herbs
medicinal plants for over fifty years, which is really remarkable,
and I mean, what led you into this in the
very ny How did you get so interested in Nerbs.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I graduated from college in nineteen sixty eight. It was
the height of the builder for the Vietnam War and
also the height of the anti war activity for many
of us. And I was involved with that. And you know,
it was during the Vietnam War and they were going
to abolish the graduate school deferments for many of us
graduating seniors just three months before we were graduating and
(04:25):
planning on going on to graduate school. I planned to
go to grad school and or law school. And I
guess is one good thing about the Vietnam War, it
is one less lawyer in the world because I did so,
no chief shotting, a lot of good friends at the lawyers.
But I was going to grad school and you know,
study political science, philosophy or law, and you know, I
(04:47):
had to start thinking about what am I really going
to do. I was just on the cusp of being
twenty two years old, and like a lot of people
back then, you were just trying to think of what
are our values? What do we really believe in? And
I really realized that at that time that life is sacred.
A human life is sacred, and then I eventually extended
it to animal life too, and I realized that I
could not kill an animal by looking in its eyes
(05:09):
and saying, I really need to kill you to feed
myself or feed my family, even though I didn't have
one at the time. So I just decided to become
a vegetarian and started going to what we're called health
food stores. Back then, we didn't have the so called
natural food stores and the whole foods type markets we
have today. And there were pill shops mainly, and that
contained foods for special dietary purposes, like people for low
(05:32):
sodium diets, you know, for people who had kidney diseases
or hypertension or whatever, and so there were special foods.
You can only get vited. You couldn't get vitamin C
even in a drug store back then. Hardly you can
get yogurt in a grocery store. You had to go
to a health food store for that whole week bread.
These are things that we take for granted, but back
in those days, you had to go to a health
(05:53):
food store. So I started going. I saw a whole
wall of these herbal teas, and I didn't recognize any
except peppermin and Cameo mile and books on historical folkloric
uses of medicinal plants, which fascinated me, as well as
books on foraging for wild edible plants, and that became
a hobby for me. I started reading these books about
you know plants and how they can be used as
(06:14):
food as well as medicine, and I just got hooked
on you know medicinal plants. And I ended up living
on a commune up near Tous, New Mexico, in seventy
and seventy one, off the grid, no electricity, no water
for several years until I moved back to Austin in
seventy two, and out of all that, I started eventually
an herb company with a friend of mine, wholesaling herbs
(06:35):
and just got into the business of herbs and later
got more involved with the idea of research, education and
advocacy and infrastructure for the herbal community and helped found
some herbal organizations that have grown into various organizations, including
my former newsletter Irbal Graham, which became my peer review journal,
(06:56):
and the American Botanical Council, which I founded as a
vehicle to take the then newsletter Erbo Graham and turn
it into a scientific American style for color, peer reviewed,
credible journal, but a readable journal on medicinal plants. So
that's kind of how my trajectory evolved.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah. Wow, Well you come by this honestly then, is
what I would say. And yeah, so you know you've
been publishing erbal Graham for all over forty years. It's
a beautiful it's a beautiful publication. First of all, the
photographs are amazing, and the articles are really quite good.
I know, they're all peer reviewed and very scientific but
(07:38):
informative at the same time. How would you characterize the
herbal Graham and you know, how's it different? What role
does it play in this world of natural healthcare?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Well, thank you, And our entire website at rbalgraham dot
org is based on rbal Graham, but we have some
in our organization. Rblegraham dot org is based originally on
Erbograham and a lot of the projects and programs that
evolved with the America Botanical Council that we have, you know,
quite a few different publications and other programs which we
may or get into, all evolved from the pages of
(08:08):
herbal Gram by reporting on various issues regarding quality control
and regulation and the need for better regulation on herbs.
Back in the day when there was really no appropriate regulation,
you know, scientific research to reporting on clinical trials, most
of them coming out of Germany and Western Europe back
in this eighties and nineties, when there was no clinical
(08:28):
research going on in the United States, and doctors and
other health professionals were just totally clueless about the amount
of research going on around the world, scientific research on herbs.
So a lot of what we did reported on in
Erbalgram eventually became programs or projects of ABC as the
organization evolved as a vehicle to take originally Erbograham as
a newsletter and turn it into a scientific American style
(08:51):
or National geographic. We've been called the National Geographic of herbs,
and I'm grateful for that, and I'm not saying whether
we are anywhere near that, but other people have called
that to us. Matter of fact that one of the
nicest letters I ever got one time was a Christmas
time somebody sent us a nice donation. They said, you know,
my wife and I we recycle all our magazines except
for two, National Geographic and Herbal Graham. And you know,
(09:14):
I figured out, okay, we've arrived, because, as you pointed out,
erbal Graham is a beautiful publication. And part of the
issue of communicating the value of herbs is communicating the
beauty of the plants. And for many years we relied
on our good friend the late Stephen Foster, who was
a botanist, article a researcher, an author, and one of
(09:36):
the world's premier photographers on herbs and medicinal plants. And
we have just acquired the entire collection of this by
the way of his photography, over one hundred and fifty
thousand images of over seventeen hundred properly botanically identified medicinal
plants that have adorned the pages of our magazine for
close to forty years, and over sixty five covers of
(09:59):
our magazine. We're now publishing issue number one forty three
in a few weeks to this quarterly so and many
of the covers come from Stephen's incredible photography. So the
idea of presenting the science and having things peer reviewed
and having it being accurate and responsible and reliable and
authoritative coincides with are wanting people to appreciate the beauty
(10:21):
and the color and the morphology of herbs and medicinal
and aromatic plants.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, well, well said beautiful, and I'm so glad you
have his collection of photographs because they're really quite extraordinary. So,
you know, this American Botanical Council nonprofit that you founded
in nineteen ninety eight has, I would argue, and I'm
sure you would humbly agree, really served an important role
in not only herbalism and medicinal you know, the use
(10:51):
of medicinal plants, but ethnopharmacognacy, botany. Like maybe if you
could just describe how you have with all of those disciplines, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Thank you. Actually we were found in nineteen eighty eight,
and Erbogram the poem found in nineteen eighty three. But
just to be clear, eight nineteen eighty eighth, I started
Erbograham as a vehicle to take I started ABC as
a vehicle to take Erbogram from newsletter to magazine journal
level and then everything else throughout from that. You know,
there's a science called pharmacognity, which you're well aware of,
(11:24):
and pharma cognity is a little known science outside of
the pharmacy profession, and even inside the pharmacy profession. Now
it's pretty much moribund, but it used to be required
for all pharmacists graduating from the seventy two or seventy
five schools of pharmacy. Back then in the United States,
they often called it weeds and seeds. It no longer required,
has been overtaken by medicinal chemistry, but pharmacognocy was the
(11:48):
study of drugs of natural origin, pharmaceutical drugs that come
from plants or in some cases animals, but mostly from plants,
and that science has evolved in the early late nineteenth century,
early twentieth century, and then has kind of moved into
more medicinal chemistry because there's more focused on the chemistry
(12:11):
than the plants. But even then about different surveys will
tell you different answers, but at least twenty five percent
of our modern medicines still are derived directly or indirectly
from medicinal plants, and up to fifty percent may still
be plant derived in the sense that the chemistry of
the drug is often artificially or synthesized to mimic a
(12:36):
naturally occurring plant compound, and they artificially make it because
they can make it cheaper than collecting the plant or
growing the plant and all that kind of stuff. So
pharmacognitcy is a very foundational science to legitimate herbal medicine
and the use of herbs and medicinal plants in modern
medicine and pharmacy. You mentioned ethnopharmacology, which is a cousin
(12:58):
of ethnobotany, which is a study of how native and
indigenous cultures utilize plants in their their their native area
and are they trade with other groups of people of
the tribes or groups of clans from other parts of
the world where they trade back and forth. So ethnobodany
(13:19):
is a study of how people evolved with plants and
utilize them for food, for fiber, for shelter, for fragrance,
for magic and ritual as well as for medicine and color,
et cetera. All the different ways that people evolved over
the last one hundred thousand years or more with using
the plants around them or trading for them. Ethno Pharmacology
and medical botany is basically the subset of ethnobotany where
(13:43):
you study primarily the medicinal uses of plants in a
native and indigenous cultures. So these are part of their
foundational to modern herbal medicine, whether that whether you're a
traditional herbalist or you're a naturopathic physician going to one
of the four year accredited postgraduate schools of medicine that
(14:04):
are that produce naturalropathy degrees, which you have done, fortunately
and which I respect very very greatly. And you know,
even for people in the area of pharmacy and in medicine,
the little bit of medicinal plant training that they might
get is based on a ethnobotany and pharmacognity. So these
are the primary foundational sciences that deal with underpinning herbal medicine.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, and I think that that was a really nice
and important description because you linked closely conventional medicine pharmacy
with plants, and you know, they are still as relevant
now as they have been for as long as humans
have been on this planet. And I think that's an
important thing for people to kind of think about. And
(14:52):
remember there's been a lot of changes, of course, so
one of the things that's happened is there has been
a pluripher a proliferation of products, plants based products, and
with that comes, you know, a continuum of quality. And
the American Botanical Council has addressed this in lots of ways.
(15:12):
One of the ways that you've addressed this is through
the Botanical Adulterance Prevention Program or BAP. And so tell
us a little bit about what PAP.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Is, and before I do that, if I may, and
may go back one step further, one step again, and
just to say that herbs and medicinal plants are baked
into modern pharmacy and medicine through the use of the
origin of the word drug, because the word drug comes
from an old Dutch word drogue, which means to dry,
because they dried plants to save them for use as medicines.
(15:43):
And the word drought has the same derivation. The origin
of the word drought. The origin of the word drug
comes the word dry in German or Dutch, so it's
a drug, is really a dried plant used for medicinal purposes.
Originally that was the original use of the term drug.
So that's where it comes from. By the way, Now
many herbs today are stold in the marketplace as food,
(16:06):
a certain category of foods called dietary supplements. And that's
because in nineteen ninety four, Congress pass to the Dietary
Supplement Health and Education Act in nineteen ninety four, because
there was misregulation and lack of rational regulation by the
Food and Drug Administration back that time, and herbs it
had no place to be safe harbor to be sold
in the marketplace because if anything was sold for any
(16:28):
health purposes, FDA automatically interpreted or misinterpreted as being a drug.
And if you didn't spend the fifty million dollars back
then is what it costs to get a new drug approved,
you know, you couldn't market it. And that was not
going to ever happen. What's happened is there's been a
proliferation and there's thousands and thousands of different products on
the market because it's relatively easy barrier to entry to
get into the market and sell various herbal dietary supplements
(16:50):
or non urbal supplements, whether it's fish oil or whatever.
And the fact of the matter is some of these
products are adulterated and by adult altered in this case,
I mean that they are not what they claim to
be on the label. They are mislabeled a number one
by accident. They may have the wrong stuff in them,
(17:11):
or something that shouldn't be in there in there. But
more likely, and this is the problem, more likely they
are guilty of or the people selling them are guilty
of what's called economically motivated adulteration. That is, people have
intentionally changed what's in the bottle compared to what's on
the label and what the consumer thinks they're getting, or
(17:33):
what the pharmacist or the naturopath or the herbalist things
they're recommending because somebody's cheating. And this goes back thousands
of years. One of the best articles that we have
re published, I think foundationally and intentionally when we started
our Botanical Adulterance Prevention program fourteen years ago, the first
of now ninety two peer reviewed articles that are freely
(17:54):
accessible on the ABC website at Herbalgraham dot org. The
first article that was by the late Stephen Foster, the
photographer we mentioned a moment ago, was called a Brief
History of Adulteration of herbs, spices, and medicinal plants or
plant drugs. And the point is we went back to
Greco Roman times two thousand years ago and documented all
(18:19):
these different instances of when people were intentionally selling X
and calling it Y, or removing something from X, or
adding sand to the cinnamon or whatever to increase the weight.
All the different ways that people cheated in the marketplace.
So our Botanical Adulterence Prevention Program, known by its acronym
(18:40):
bat BAPP, the world's largest nonprofit research and education consortium
dealing with trying to help the responsible members of the
urban medicinal plant community internationally know what stuff is being adulterated,
(19:00):
how it's being adulterated, what the evidence is that shows
that proves that it's subject to adulteration, and how they
can protect themselves by using proper appropriate fit for purpose
laboratory analytical methods to identify adulteration and or authenticate and
assure the identity of whatever product ingredients they're putting in
(19:22):
their products. Because there are many, many high quality companies
that are reliable, that are run by very ethical people
who care about the quality of the ingredients they sell.
They care about the way they're processed, the way they
care about the way they're packaged and marketed, and they
care about the consumers effect the consumers experience when taking
these products, usually for their health benefit. And then there's
(19:44):
other companies that are more sometimes in it for the
money only and they may be less committed to the
type of rigorous quality control that's necessary. We're making this
information available about what herbs are being subject to adulteration,
which is an ancient, ancient problem. It's not a model issue.
It's both. It's been around a long time. We're making
that information available to help protect the responsible members of
(20:07):
the community so they don't get victimized by the scrupulous
sellers of fraudulent material. Right.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, it's really important because you know, one of the
things that people sometimes might experience is they have the
right herb for the right thing, but they don't have
a good quality product. So then they come away thinking, ah,
herbs don't work. It's as old medicine, you know, let
me move on to more modern options, whereas in fact,
(20:34):
sometimes the real issue there is the quality of the
herb or the herbal product. Yeah, okay, well, I'm glad
you've taken the lead on this really important issue. And
I guess sort of related to this issue is sustainability.
You know, I'm getting more and more concerned about sustainability
with the growing demand from medicinal herbs, and I'm just wondering,
(20:57):
what do you think is our current herbal global verbal
market sustainable? And you know, there are more and more
plans to get added to the endangered plant list, like,
how do you see this working itself out?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Thank you for asking that. Twenty eighteen and we took
on a project called the Sustainable Herbs Project for five
and a half years. We've helped build it up and
incubated it and as now, as of July, the summer
of twenty twenty four, we spun off until now it's
called Sustainable RBS Initiative and they have their own website
and I encourage people to check it out, and we're
(21:32):
building another website, another page on our website about sustainability.
And the point of this is that we are very
concerned that companies get the proper guidance and education on
how to sustainably harvest or access or source their herbal material.
(21:53):
Much of these herbal materials are coming from underdeveloped countries.
A lot of them are picked from the wild, so
there's a sustainability issue just from wild harvesting. More and
more of these herbal products are being actually cultivated in
small farms as well as large farms, depending on whatever
it is and where the farming is happening. So there
(22:14):
is a whole industry involved with just sourcing the plant
material that goes into herbal teas that goes into capsules
and capsules and tablets as far as herbal powders, or
are extracted with water or alcohol or other solvents to
make dry or liquid her herbal products, herbal extracts and
(22:35):
then again sold as liquids and or sold as the
solid doses farms as tablets or capsules, or put into
food products, or put into cosmetic products. Even so, there's
a whole, huge and ancient trade going on around the world,
and it's a global economy in this and of course
because of rising sea levels on coastal areas and changes
(22:57):
in climate, there are concerns about not all the availability
of some of these plants, but also the changes in
weather pattern can also change the actual chemistry of certain plants.
People in China have indicated in certain cases, and we
published an article about this years ago, that tea from
certain areas taste different because the growing conditions shift, and
(23:20):
when growing conditions shift for a plant, sometimes the chemistry
of the plant will shift also when it's harvested. Because
plant chemistry, as you well know, is there in the
plant as what we call secondary plant metabolites to help
with the protection of the plant against herbivorous insects and
or the encroachment from other plants. So sun, the amount
(23:43):
of sun, the amount of soil, amount of rain, and
other climatic conditions can affect the actual balance of certain
chemistry in the plants, which can affect they're not only
their flavor in the case of teeth, but also affect
their medicinal effect based on the nutrients and or pharmacologically
active plant chemicals that we harvest the plant for for
(24:03):
its entirety and or for certain extracts. So these things
are subject to change with weather patterns changing, So there's
all kinds of angles that are important on sustainability. It's
not just about the plant itself, but it's the quality
of the plant that you're getting. And also it's about
the people involved in the value network. And instead of
(24:26):
saying supply chain, we'd like to say value network and
supply chain is so linear and really if you look
at it, it's like a root system. It's a network
of people all along the way, especially at the beginning,
and we want to honor them and try to ensure
that they get adjusted in living an appropriate wage for
their good works, which makes these plant materials available to us.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, so important, and I'm glad you tied in the
climate changes and the impact that has. These are all
things we need to address for lots of reasons, this
just being one of them. So you know, that's one
way herbalism has changed since you first started. And I
want to just sort of ask kind of blend two
(25:09):
intended questions into one. You've launched a new program called
herb TV, and wondering if you could tell us a
little bit about that and if that somehow perhaps relates
to just sort of trends and things that are happening
in herbalism.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Let's look at a trend. According to a twenty twenty
two survey, ninety two percent of American adults or Americans
using the Internet used YouTube. Ninety two percent of Internet
users go to YouTube at least once or more times.
So we have a YouTube channel. It's called herb TV.
There's no dot, it's herb tv htrb TV. Right now,
(25:46):
we have about several hundred videos on there, and we're
adding new ones every week. These are videos that some
of which we inherited from a good friend named David
la Luzerne, a pharmacist turned herbalist up in Madison, Wisconsin
who started taking videos and documenting herbal lectures and herb
walks and very many famous herbalists. And then when he
(26:07):
retired a few years ago, he still acted by the
way in the local sustainability and environmental community just got
out of it sold he had two herb stores. He
got rid of his pharmacies and turned him into herb stores.
Now he's gotten rid of those. But Dave Loluzern great guy,
and he donated some three hundred or more different video
interviews on video digital tape to ABC for us to
(26:31):
have and we decided, well, okay, we have to deal
with COVID. It been in the last five years, but
we eventually got this off the ground and herb TV
was something he already had, but we just didn't have
the bandwidth and the resources that we put a lot
of time and energy in which we're starting to do now.
So we're going to be producing and we are producing
our own videos. We have a ten or twelve minute
(26:51):
video on Milkwhistle, Broccoli, oshwagandha tonkat Ali and Saw Palmeto.
Those are the first five videos that we've done, about
ten minutes each, which are non commercial videos that basically
deal with various aspects of each of these herbs and
their benefits, their uses, their science, their traditional use, et cetera.
And then we're also we're going to be making more
(27:11):
of our own in housemade videos, but also we're aggregating
video from other sources, from friends and colleagues that have
a trove of video content that they're making available to us.
So Rosemary Glasstar has offered some to us, our good
friend Chris Killum has offered some video to us. So
this is going to become not just an ABC outlet,
(27:34):
but it's also going to become a portal where is
becoming a portal for all kinds of herb related video content.
So a wide variety of educational opportunities for people, all free.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Fantastic, So great to hear it. Okay, so we just
have a couple of minutes left and I would love
to give you the chance. I'm going to ask you
to share your websites with us, But first, any final
thoughts you'd like to leave with our listeners.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well, I think that it's important. For first of all,
thanks for having me on. I really appreciate this. I've
always admired your energy and your clarity of your commitment
to natural medicine, and as a big fan of yours.
And I know that you haven't said this, but you've
been a very honored and welcome member of the ABC
Advisory Board for probably twenty years or maybe maybe longer,
I don't know, So thank you for that. Appreciate you
(28:21):
and some of the period review you've done for some
of our articles. I think the important thing here is
that you know herbs work. Bottom line, herbs work. You
know it, I know it. Many people listening right now
know it as well. Some people do not know as
well as we do, but we know that they work.
So we have a default commitment and a bias toward
herbs what we're doing at ABC. When we first started,
you know, herbs didn't get much respect. That were considered
(28:43):
folkl or old wives tales, to put it in a
misogynistic majority of back in the day. You know, we're
showing people that there is good, good, documented clinical research
and science showing the safety and benefits of numerous herbal
products long they are made properly, et cetera. And our
goal is to help increase the public awareness, whether it's consumers,
(29:06):
health professionals, researchers, journalists, government employees, that there is an
appropriate role for herbal medicine and herbal medicinal products, whether
it be dietary sepments or herbal drug products or both
and more. There's a legitimate and appropriate play for these
things as part of good self care and good health care.
(29:28):
Let's remember self medication requires self education. We're part of
the way to help educate people so that they become
educated users of how to employ these herbs rationally into
a very holistic, but robust and healthcare regimen, and herbs
(29:49):
are part of that, especially when you consider the fact
that herbs, like the adaptogens are here to help increase
our wellness and increase our robustness, our piece of our vitality,
increase our immune syste and function. Conventional medicine doesn't have
anything in this category.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, so fantastic final hurrah for herbs. I'm right there
with you, and I just want to thank you Mark
for your you know, one hundred percent dedication to plants
and to people. And what is the website that you
can share with our listeners so they can learn more
about the American Botanical.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Council Herbalgraham dot org, h g R B A, l
g R A M dot org. If you go to
erblegrahamdaughter dot org, Herbalgraham dot org and you register, we'll
send you a free newsletter every Tuesday afternoon called Herbalnews
and Events. It's totally free and it has all kinds
of information about HERB conferences, ORB webinars, like eight or
(30:45):
ten articles from the week, the news around the world
in the last week. That's herb centric and et cetera.
So tons of free information at Herbalgraham dot org. Where
at member based organization, we thrive on membership, we thrive
on donations, and yet we also have about twenty percent
of our content is freely accessible to the general public.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Well, thank you, thank you so much, and that wraps
up this episode of five to Thrive Live Again. I
want to thank our sponsors. Set you a Glutathion, the
superior glued to ion to support liver and immune health.
Cognizance Ofticoline to help enhance memory, focus and attention, Doctor
or Heroes, Probiotics award winning pre and probiotic formulas and
(31:28):
pro thrivers wellness supplements designed specifically for thrivers. Thank you
listener for joining us. May you experience joy, laughter and love.
It's time to thrive. Everyone, have a great night. Sinks
(32:04):
in us.
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