November 12, 2024 • 30 mins
On this episode, medical oncologist, Dr. Krisstina Gowin on the topic of care-taking the spirit during the experience of cancer. Cancer is a jarring, often times painful, experience. The experience of cancer can also be a transformative and soulful. On this episode, Dr. Gowin will share her insights for healing with cancer.
Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guests should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
They welcome to find to Thrive Live, a podcast about
thriving for those who have been affected by cancer and
chronic disease. I'm doctor Lisau Schuler and a co host
(00:48):
with my good friend Carolyn Gazelle, and you can find
all past show podcasts on every major podcast outlet, including
now the YouTube channel, and you can find a schedule
of our shows at ithriveplan dot com. So tonight I'm
going to be talking with doctor Christina Gowan about tending
to the spirit and to the process of healing during
(01:10):
the experience of cancer, and we're going to hear from
her in just a moment. Doctor Gowan is an Associate
Professor of Medicine at the City of Hope in Orange County, California.
She's also the educational director of the Chern Family Center
for Integrative Oncology. She completed internal medicine residency at the
(01:31):
University of Southern California She did her hematology and medical
oncology training at Mayo Clinic in Arizona, and also received
training and integrative medicine at the Andrew Wild Center of
Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona. She's a hematology
oncology clinician, researcher.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
And educator.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
She is founder and co director of the first Integrative
Oncology fellowship program for physicians in the nation, and has
authored a book entitled Living Well with a Milo Proliferative Neoplasm. So,
before we get on with this really important conversation, do
want to thank our sponsors. First, we have Immuse, a
(02:10):
unique patented post biotic that gives your immune system a
key advantage. Amuse is an ingredient in many immune supporting
dietarized supplements, so look for Amuse on the label or
go to immuse health dot com for more information. We
also have Cognizance of a cooline, which is nature's way
of keeping the brain's energy producing centers firing on all cylinders.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
If you're looking for a way to enhance.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Your brain function, including memory, focus, and attention, look for
Cognizant on the label or go to Cognizant dot com
for more information. Pro Thriver's Brain is a product, for example,
that contains cognizant and there are other brain supporting nutrients
and herbs in that product, and you can find pro
Thriver's Brain online at Pureformulas dot com. We also thank
(02:54):
doctor ohiros Probiotics, a best selling probiotic for over thirty years,
which contains twelve alotic strains which are chef stable without
refrigeration due to their unique three year fermentation process, and
you can learn more at doctor Ohiroprobiotics dot com. So
with that, Doctor Gawan, welcome to five to Thrive Live.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Oh my goodness, thank you so much for having me.
I am so honored to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, I'm honored to have you, and I'm very excited
about this topic, and I'm very excited to have this
conversation with you. In particular. You know, you're a hematology
oncology clinician. You've participated in cancer research, You've co found
in the first integrative medicine Hemonk Clinical Fellowship, You've recently
taken on your new position at the City of Hope
(03:41):
Jurn Integrative Medicine Center, so you obviously have a lot
of passion for what you do. Where does all this
passion come from?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
What a good question. Oh thank you so much for
asking that.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
And you know, I think that question that really kind
of gets down to how vulnerable do we want to
be when we answer question like that? And today I'm
feeling vulnerable. So I'm going to tell you a little
bit about me and my childhood.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
And my goodness.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I think so much of our passion is truly built
from resiliency and from our experiences. And so for me.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
I really had a tough childhood.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I was raised in poverty, and I witnessed poly substance
abuse and had food insecurity. And when I was nine
years old, I lost both of my parents in a
car accident of which I was in, thank you, I
was in and I was a survivor with my best
friend of seven cars and all of them had passed,
(04:45):
and that was wild. And then two years later, my
caregiver was in a car accident again and in a
coma for three months, and it's just so much trauma
and and for a child, and so that really sent
me into my own spiral of polysubstance abuse and behavioral issues.
(05:10):
And slowly during that process there was a fire building
inside of me of resiliency, of strength, and a kind
of a sense of what does all of this mean?
Why am I here? And why am I experiencing all
of this? And it just it came to me slowly,
(05:33):
but it came to me that, oh, my goodness, I
feel so much stronger.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Because of these apperiences.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
And I now know that there's something I have to give.
I want to help escort others who are suffering and
help them find the way, to find meaning and find
purpose and find joy amidst it all. And it occurred
(06:02):
to me after I kind of went in my own
spiritual quest in teenage years, if you believe it, meditating
and working with books from John Kabatsen and Deep Chopra
and Caron miss and all of these wonderful teachers, that
in cancer care, that is a place where you can
(06:24):
do that right, You can really interact with other spirits,
other souls, other people on this kind of journey of
trying to find meaning and healing. And so that's where
I find my passion. It's really in my story and
(06:44):
my deep desire to be on that journey with others
and to help them find their way and their light.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Wow. Well, first of all, I'm sorry that you've experienced
so much trauma in your past, and you know, somebody
meeting you would never guess and the trauma that you've
been through, so you clearly have tremendous resilience. And I'm
just very and impressed with the way you've taken that
trauma and transformed it into a career of health and
(07:17):
healing from you and others too many others. So thank
you for all that you do. And why so, speaking
of cancer, you mentioned that this is kind of a
good place for you to have landed. Why Why do
you think a cancer diagnosis is so unique in how
it impacts people's lives? And I do believe also that
(07:38):
there's something unique about a diagnosis of cancer.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Why is that?
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Yeah, there's something about all of a sudden being told
that there's an existential threat, right that everything you know
of in this existence could be lost. And I think
that's a wake up call and it's shocking and opening,
(08:06):
heart opening and also crushing at the same time. And
that kind of pressure really really opens people up in
unique ways. And I see that there's new kind of
sources if you will, of awareness of awe of gratitude
of the capacity to forgive, the desire to give back,
(08:32):
and to connect. And so it's really just something transformational
that I see occurs after cancer diagnosis.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, I would agree with you for sure.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It rattles life apart and then people have to figure
out how they want to put it together or back together. So,
you know, you also talk about medicine for healing, and
you have mentioned several components and one of those is connection.
So talk a little bit about how connection serves the
(09:08):
process of healing.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you that that was an evolution
and when I started to meet with patients, I would
always go and I talk about health and healing and
four pillars body, mind, spirit and joy. And spirit does
not resonate with everyone I found. And so that pillar
(09:31):
for me has really transformed into connection. And I love
that because it's so kind of multifaceted. That connection can
be many different things, right. Certainly, it can be in
a spiritual sense, like connecting to whatever higher power that
(09:53):
we connect with or the patient in front of us
connects with. But it also can be nature, it could
be with our community. And so I love the expansion
of connection and are expanding that definition and really allowing
us to explore that when we're trying to find this
(10:16):
as a modality of healing, and how do we really
tap into all of those different modalities of connection? And
I think connection too is about realizing we are not alone,
right that? And I think this is true too, that
we're in human existence. It's kind of a lonely thing.
(10:40):
We come in to this world alone, we leave alone,
and that can be lonely. And so to have this
kind of a weakening that we are not alone in
this experience is.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Really I think comforting.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
And I love this. I don't know if you've at
least heard this kind of parable that was from a
Buddhist parable, and essentially there was maybe I'll just spend
a moment to kind of share this parable. And so
there was a little girl who had lost her grandfather
(11:19):
and the grandfather had been so close to her and
so so meaningful in her life, and she was just devastated.
And her mother, in her anguish, saw that she needed
to give her medicine but didn't know how, and she
had this beautiful idea of saying, hey, there is the
anecdote to your grief, and I have just one task
(11:42):
for you to do this, you have to go to
every single one of the homes in our community and gather.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
A cup of sugar.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
But here's the catch that to get this antidote to work,
you have to gather the sugar from a home that
has not been touched by grief or loss. And so
she goes home to home to home, knocking on doors
and finds that that doesn't exist, that every single one
(12:12):
of her neighbors had been touched by grief and loss.
And she's her stories after stories that broke her heart
and touched her, and she came she was walking home
and feeling kind of broken hearted that she had not
retrieved this cup of sugar that was going to be
the anecdote for her pain. And in that realized that
(12:35):
her anecdote had been found right, that it was the
connection and realization that we are all connected by suffering,
by pain, by loss, by grief, that this is the
human experience, and that in of itself is healing medicine.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Beautiful, you know, it is so true.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
That's why I think that's really the origin of cancer
support groups, and it's why so many of my appointments
in my practice, I hardly ever see just the patient.
It's usually the patient and their partner or some member
of their family there. So there is this thing about
cancer too that clarifies the critical necessity really of feeling
(13:23):
in connection with others. Right, Yeah, beautiful story. You know,
there's another thing you speak about which is a little
bit different, and it's joy, and I think that can
be a bit elusive for people who are going through
challenging treatments, who perhaps have very serious prognosis prognoses, So,
how do you encourage people to integrate joy?
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Yeah, So joy, very much like connection, has been an
evolution in my practice that I came in thinking that, oh,
let us just talk about joy and start to really
instill that. And it was kind of a naive thought
at the beginning because the realization is is that joy,
(14:08):
what I observed at least, was not accessible at the
beginning because it really had to be processed through grief first, Right,
the grief around it, grief encapsulate their joy, and they're
still interrelated. The more grief we have, the more capacity
almost we have for joy, but we have to process
(14:31):
that grief first. So I think that's the first thing
I've learned to do is that on the path to
joy that we really have to hold up our grief,
hold up the losses, the loss of dreams, the loss
of identity, the loss of financial stability, the loss of
the life we used to have, and let that go
(14:53):
and process it before we can begin to do really
fun but sometimes hard work of finding joy again through
a cancer diagnosis. And so that's been the process for me,
is to really work with the patients in front of
(15:15):
me and say, you know, how do we get there,
how do we really facilitate that process? And then after
we've done that, and usually it takes a little a
little while, right, a couple of months at least, before
the joy work can really begin. But then it's about
making lists, right, It's about finding the little things that
(15:37):
are joyful again and allowing those to be new definitions
of joy.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Of joy that you know.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Maybe wasn't defined in the past is joy but now
is newly joyful, right, new connections, Being able to slow
down a little bit and take in some of the
nature around taking the moment to smell your beautiful cup
of coffee in the morning. Is that, like the simple
joys often are really the most kind of eye opening
(16:11):
and profound that we had missed previously. And so I
think joy is always an evolution and a constant changing dynamic.
But what a fun one, What a fun pillar to
really begin to work through. And I've seen many open
(16:32):
up and say, oh my gosh, that is the thing
that really has changed my whole life is to really
kind of anchor in and say what is it that
brings me joy?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, yeah, you know. I love the way you frame
that up.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It reminds me of a couple of things.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
One is a book I read not.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Long ago called Bittersweet by Susan Kane. She also wrote Quiet,
which is a book about introversion that's quite nice, But
this is she talks a lot about this idea of
that you mentioned too, about grief and joy being very intertwined,
and in fact, it's that exquisite painful experience of loss
(17:14):
or longing that reminds us of the joy that we
have in us, that you know, and that there's that
artists really are people that are in touch with that
sort of duality of grief and joy in the same experience.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So yeah, I like I.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Like I said, And you also remind me of another
attribute you talk about, which is gratitude something that nurtures
the spirit. I recently read something by Brother David steinel Rass,
who's this you know monk that just is the gratitude
Monk is kind of his nickname because he's so grateful
all the time. But he said that he several years
(17:55):
ago started a practice of finding gratitude every day for
something that he's never express gratitude for before, and he's
expressed a lot of gratitude. So that's quite amazing and
I found that just so inspiring. And anyway, so I'm
just wondering, you know what, what what have you seen
as the impact of gratitude, particularly in people who have
been diagnosed with cancer? And how do you incorporate that
(18:18):
into your healing work?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Yeah, I you know, I think gratitude is one of
the most potent medicines we all can do for ourselves, right,
And I think it's really it's it's an action rather
than an experience. And I think we think of it
it's going to land on us, right like a butterfly
or something. We're going to be graced by by the gratitude.
(18:42):
But it's really what I found is the more we
practice it intentionally, the more access, we get to the little,
the little moments of kind of circling back around to
our conversation about joy, right, And so the just kind.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Of logistical ways we can do that.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
And I think you probably at least have heard of these,
and many of us have, and it's just a reminder
to do them for ourselves. But greeting the day with gratitude, right,
what is it that makes us feel open and alive
and connected each day? And then to your point again, Lisa,
that how do we expand that bubble? How do we
(19:25):
name new things? How do we redefine what is making
us feel grateful each day? And as we start naming
all those new things, they become more prevalent, right, and
we become even more.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Grateful and more grateful.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
And so it really kind of begets itself and is
a self fulfilling.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Prophecy of gratitude.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
So greeting the day with gratitude is one gratitude jars, right,
keeping a jar and jotting down what makes us grateful,
and then any time that we need to be filled
up sitting that jar. So many ways gratitude journals, but
I usually would kind of ask, what is it that
(20:11):
really connects with you? Which of these practices really connect
with you? And then we make a commitment to do
that every day. However that looks and I think we
need reminders, right, reminders to do all of these things,
the connection, the joy, and the gratitude. But it really
is an action, right, something we do with intention every
(20:34):
day and it just really I think is transformational.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
It really is. Gratitude is so powerful.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, for sure, absolutely, And it doesn't take it doesn't
negate the difficulty of whatever the experience is around cancer treatment,
et cetera. It just infuses into our daily day to
day the acknowledgement of kind of both end. Right, So
we can have a very difficult, challenging experience and we
(21:04):
can also have a lot of And I think just
that balance is so helpful because otherwise we get pulled
just towards challenge all the time and with nothing to
balance it, that's when I think we get distressed. Yeah,
becomes hard for a spirit to soar. So what about purpose?
(21:24):
How does purpose support the spirit? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (21:29):
I love this idea of purpose and the Japanese have
a whole concept around it called ikey Guy, which I
recently came across and really resonated with and it's the
concept that refers to a reason for being or a
passion that gives life value and joy. And it's kind
(21:50):
of this intersection of mission and passion and profession and
purpose and what a powerful concept. And I went to
the literature because I'm a science nerd and I can't
help myself, and I went to the literature and said,
who studied this concept? Because and I'll circle back around
to this, I found it a really potent medicine. And
(22:12):
there's actually one hundred and eighteen publications looking at icky
Guy as an intervention from Japan and it's helpful for
depression and anxiety and quality of life. So there's actually
research around this. But I think in the context of
cancer is that we need a reason to get up
(22:37):
in the morning, right, We need something that lights the
fire inside us and to contribute to those around us
in some way. And so I've really had a joyful
opportunity to kind of brainstorm. And this is as part
of the process I think integrade of oncology consultations of
(23:02):
what gets you out of bed in the morning, what
lights your fire, and how do we nurture that because
that is medicine that will make you feel more alive
to sit in that chemotherapy chair and more resilient and
so that you can get out the next day. And
so I think there's a lot more work to be
(23:23):
done here. I think in the context of cancer, ach
guy and purpose has been really overlooked, I would say,
and understudied. And so that's going to be part of
my own path, I think, is to better understand this.
But I do think it's medicine. And I feel, as
you heard, I feel that inside me, it's the achy
(23:44):
guy that makes me alive and passionate and what makes
me want to work and connect with everyone around me.
So I think there's some really potent medicine in this
concept of ichy guy.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And I think too, when somebody is actually is faced
with the cancer that is advanced and has had to
abandon let's say their vocation or is beginning to recognize
they may not live long enough to see their children
reach adulthood or whatever the case might be, that their
(24:18):
sense of purpose might have to shift to. And I
some of the patients that I find to be the
most healed despite a state of their disease are those
that have asked themselves the question, you know, how can
this disease serve? How can this disease serve me in
my life?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Like? What could not that?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It's not the same thing as saying why did I
get this? It's more like, Okay, I'm in this experience,
now what purpose can this serve me?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
As a human?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
And I think that too, is such a powerful way
to move forward with something that's very difficult.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
We bet I'm wondering too, Lisa, because you're a survivor,
and how did this play for you and your healing?
And maybe even I wonder all of these concepts what
really resonates with you and your path? And I'm sure
that's all tied into your own sense of purpose and
ikey guy, Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I mean I think that all the things you've talked about,
you know, came up for me and in a very
fresh way. You know, I would say, like you, I've
devoted a good part of my life to my own
inner development. And when I was diagnosed with cancer and
stared at mortality in a more acute way, which is
(25:36):
what cancer diagnosis does, I think for a lot of us,
it really helped me to appreciate Wow, no, matter what
I do in life or accomplish or participate in, the
purpose behind it is to be more loving, to be
more kind, to connect with others, to find the joy
(25:58):
in as many moments as I can. So Yeah, I think,
if anything, it just settled these principles within me in
a very deep and very profound, unshakable way, which have
not left since.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
Wow. Now I love this concept of you know, connecting
with love too, and I think, you know, that's that's
something that is rising.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I think in medicine.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
As a culture, that that love is medicine and connecting
to our own love and the kind of collective love
of wanting to heal ourselves and one another.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
It's really a beautiful thing. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
So you're, you know, working in the belly of the beast,
so to speak. You know, you're in the middle of
conventional ecology. Of course, you have a lot of what
you do in the integrative oncology world as well. But
given your experience as a provider, how can oncology care
conventional oncology can become more engaged, not even engaged, but
(27:02):
more proactively engaged with the spiritual healthcare of those diagnosed
with cancer.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Yeah, and this is an area where I think I'm
going to really be devoting the rest of my career too.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I am so excited.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
I'm excited to be moving away from I'm still going
to be doing conventional care. But how do we create
a culture where this is just part of our repertoire
of caring for our patients. And as you know, I'm
really a passionate educator and building educational models, and so
(27:42):
the next step I think is to really start to
create models of education where every oncologist, every palliative care doctor,
every nurse and fusion nurse, palliative care nurse has some
has access at least to curriculum to have these conversations
(28:05):
and to really highlight that it is medicine, that this
is the heart of good, good medicine, and that we
really need to be, you know, teaching our next generation
that this is not you know, an add on, that
this is the heart and the core of what good
medicine looks like.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Right, good, fantastic. Well, I'm supporting you all the way,
and this has been such a great show. Unfortunately we're
kind of out of time. But how can our listeners
find you your book, anything else you'd like to share.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Oh my goodness, well the city of Hope, Orange County.
What I guess what I'd like to share is that,
you know, just to leave with the concept of empowerment,
right that, yes, it is important to follow traditional cancer
or care, and it is important to be thinking about
(29:03):
lifestyle medicine and what we eat matters, and how we
move matters, but it is also so so important to
nurture the all of these aspects within. And this is
what we can do ass patients ourselves, right, this is
what we can really lead, and so it's really empowering.
(29:24):
And so I guess that's the message I like to leave,
is just the true empowerment that this kind of medicine
can really give beautiful.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Well, on that wonderful note, we're going to wrap up
this episode of five to Thrive Live Again. I want
to thank our sponsors cognizanceticoline to help enhance memory, focus
and attention, immuse a post biotic for immune support, doctor
Rahira's Probiotics Award winning pre and probiotic formulas and pro
thrivers wellness supplements designed specifically for thrivers. And I hope
(29:59):
you listener have enjoyed your time with us. May you
experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to thrive. Everyone,
have a great night.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Loves Loves the Jay. The city is f
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guests should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
They welcome to find to Thrive Live, a podcast about
thriving for those who have been affected by cancer and
chronic disease. I'm doctor Lisau Schuler and a co host
(00:48):
with my good friend Carolyn Gazelle, and you can find
all past show podcasts on every major podcast outlet, including
now the YouTube channel, and you can find a schedule
of our shows at ithriveplan dot com. So tonight I'm
going to be talking with doctor Christina Gowan about tending
to the spirit and to the process of healing during
(01:10):
the experience of cancer, and we're going to hear from
her in just a moment. Doctor Gowan is an Associate
Professor of Medicine at the City of Hope in Orange County, California.
She's also the educational director of the Chern Family Center
for Integrative Oncology. She completed internal medicine residency at the
(01:31):
University of Southern California She did her hematology and medical
oncology training at Mayo Clinic in Arizona, and also received
training and integrative medicine at the Andrew Wild Center of
Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona. She's a hematology
oncology clinician, researcher.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
And educator.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
She is founder and co director of the first Integrative
Oncology fellowship program for physicians in the nation, and has
authored a book entitled Living Well with a Milo Proliferative Neoplasm. So,
before we get on with this really important conversation, do
want to thank our sponsors. First, we have Immuse, a
(02:10):
unique patented post biotic that gives your immune system a
key advantage. Amuse is an ingredient in many immune supporting
dietarized supplements, so look for Amuse on the label or
go to immuse health dot com for more information. We
also have Cognizance of a cooline, which is nature's way
of keeping the brain's energy producing centers firing on all cylinders.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
If you're looking for a way to enhance.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
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with that, Doctor Gawan, welcome to five to Thrive Live.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Oh my goodness, thank you so much for having me.
I am so honored to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, I'm honored to have you, and I'm very excited
about this topic, and I'm very excited to have this
conversation with you. In particular. You know, you're a hematology
oncology clinician. You've participated in cancer research, You've co found
in the first integrative medicine Hemonk Clinical Fellowship, You've recently
taken on your new position at the City of Hope
(03:41):
Jurn Integrative Medicine Center, so you obviously have a lot
of passion for what you do. Where does all this
passion come from?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
What a good question. Oh thank you so much for
asking that.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
And you know, I think that question that really kind
of gets down to how vulnerable do we want to
be when we answer question like that? And today I'm
feeling vulnerable. So I'm going to tell you a little
bit about me and my childhood.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
And my goodness.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I think so much of our passion is truly built
from resiliency and from our experiences. And so for me.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
I really had a tough childhood.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I was raised in poverty, and I witnessed poly substance
abuse and had food insecurity. And when I was nine
years old, I lost both of my parents in a
car accident of which I was in, thank you, I
was in and I was a survivor with my best
friend of seven cars and all of them had passed,
(04:45):
and that was wild. And then two years later, my
caregiver was in a car accident again and in a
coma for three months, and it's just so much trauma
and and for a child, and so that really sent
me into my own spiral of polysubstance abuse and behavioral issues.
(05:10):
And slowly during that process there was a fire building
inside of me of resiliency, of strength, and a kind
of a sense of what does all of this mean?
Why am I here? And why am I experiencing all
of this? And it just it came to me slowly,
(05:33):
but it came to me that, oh, my goodness, I
feel so much stronger.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Because of these apperiences.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
And I now know that there's something I have to give.
I want to help escort others who are suffering and
help them find the way, to find meaning and find
purpose and find joy amidst it all. And it occurred
(06:02):
to me after I kind of went in my own
spiritual quest in teenage years, if you believe it, meditating
and working with books from John Kabatsen and Deep Chopra
and Caron miss and all of these wonderful teachers, that
in cancer care, that is a place where you can
(06:24):
do that right, You can really interact with other spirits,
other souls, other people on this kind of journey of
trying to find meaning and healing. And so that's where
I find my passion. It's really in my story and
(06:44):
my deep desire to be on that journey with others
and to help them find their way and their light.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Wow. Well, first of all, I'm sorry that you've experienced
so much trauma in your past, and you know, somebody
meeting you would never guess and the trauma that you've
been through, so you clearly have tremendous resilience. And I'm
just very and impressed with the way you've taken that
trauma and transformed it into a career of health and
(07:17):
healing from you and others too many others. So thank
you for all that you do. And why so, speaking
of cancer, you mentioned that this is kind of a
good place for you to have landed. Why Why do
you think a cancer diagnosis is so unique in how
it impacts people's lives? And I do believe also that
(07:38):
there's something unique about a diagnosis of cancer.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Why is that?
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Yeah, there's something about all of a sudden being told
that there's an existential threat, right that everything you know
of in this existence could be lost. And I think
that's a wake up call and it's shocking and opening,
(08:06):
heart opening and also crushing at the same time. And
that kind of pressure really really opens people up in
unique ways. And I see that there's new kind of
sources if you will, of awareness of awe of gratitude
of the capacity to forgive, the desire to give back,
(08:32):
and to connect. And so it's really just something transformational
that I see occurs after cancer diagnosis.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, I would agree with you for sure.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It rattles life apart and then people have to figure
out how they want to put it together or back together. So,
you know, you also talk about medicine for healing, and
you have mentioned several components and one of those is connection.
So talk a little bit about how connection serves the
(09:08):
process of healing.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you that that was an evolution
and when I started to meet with patients, I would
always go and I talk about health and healing and
four pillars body, mind, spirit and joy. And spirit does
not resonate with everyone I found. And so that pillar
(09:31):
for me has really transformed into connection. And I love
that because it's so kind of multifaceted. That connection can
be many different things, right. Certainly, it can be in
a spiritual sense, like connecting to whatever higher power that
(09:53):
we connect with or the patient in front of us
connects with. But it also can be nature, it could
be with our community. And so I love the expansion
of connection and are expanding that definition and really allowing
us to explore that when we're trying to find this
(10:16):
as a modality of healing, and how do we really
tap into all of those different modalities of connection? And
I think connection too is about realizing we are not alone,
right that? And I think this is true too, that
we're in human existence. It's kind of a lonely thing.
(10:40):
We come in to this world alone, we leave alone,
and that can be lonely. And so to have this
kind of a weakening that we are not alone in
this experience is.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Really I think comforting.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
And I love this. I don't know if you've at
least heard this kind of parable that was from a
Buddhist parable, and essentially there was maybe I'll just spend
a moment to kind of share this parable. And so
there was a little girl who had lost her grandfather
(11:19):
and the grandfather had been so close to her and
so so meaningful in her life, and she was just devastated.
And her mother, in her anguish, saw that she needed
to give her medicine but didn't know how, and she
had this beautiful idea of saying, hey, there is the
anecdote to your grief, and I have just one task
(11:42):
for you to do this, you have to go to
every single one of the homes in our community and gather.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
A cup of sugar.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
But here's the catch that to get this antidote to work,
you have to gather the sugar from a home that
has not been touched by grief or loss. And so
she goes home to home to home, knocking on doors
and finds that that doesn't exist, that every single one
(12:12):
of her neighbors had been touched by grief and loss.
And she's her stories after stories that broke her heart
and touched her, and she came she was walking home
and feeling kind of broken hearted that she had not
retrieved this cup of sugar that was going to be
the anecdote for her pain. And in that realized that
(12:35):
her anecdote had been found right, that it was the
connection and realization that we are all connected by suffering,
by pain, by loss, by grief, that this is the
human experience, and that in of itself is healing medicine.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Beautiful, you know, it is so true.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
That's why I think that's really the origin of cancer
support groups, and it's why so many of my appointments
in my practice, I hardly ever see just the patient.
It's usually the patient and their partner or some member
of their family there. So there is this thing about
cancer too that clarifies the critical necessity really of feeling
(13:23):
in connection with others. Right, Yeah, beautiful story. You know,
there's another thing you speak about which is a little
bit different, and it's joy, and I think that can
be a bit elusive for people who are going through
challenging treatments, who perhaps have very serious prognosis prognoses, So,
how do you encourage people to integrate joy?
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Yeah, So joy, very much like connection, has been an
evolution in my practice that I came in thinking that, oh,
let us just talk about joy and start to really
instill that. And it was kind of a naive thought
at the beginning because the realization is is that joy,
(14:08):
what I observed at least, was not accessible at the
beginning because it really had to be processed through grief first, Right,
the grief around it, grief encapsulate their joy, and they're
still interrelated. The more grief we have, the more capacity
almost we have for joy, but we have to process
(14:31):
that grief first. So I think that's the first thing
I've learned to do is that on the path to
joy that we really have to hold up our grief,
hold up the losses, the loss of dreams, the loss
of identity, the loss of financial stability, the loss of
the life we used to have, and let that go
(14:53):
and process it before we can begin to do really
fun but sometimes hard work of finding joy again through
a cancer diagnosis. And so that's been the process for me,
is to really work with the patients in front of
(15:15):
me and say, you know, how do we get there,
how do we really facilitate that process? And then after
we've done that, and usually it takes a little a
little while, right, a couple of months at least, before
the joy work can really begin. But then it's about
making lists, right, It's about finding the little things that
(15:37):
are joyful again and allowing those to be new definitions
of joy.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Of joy that you know.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Maybe wasn't defined in the past is joy but now
is newly joyful, right, new connections, Being able to slow
down a little bit and take in some of the
nature around taking the moment to smell your beautiful cup
of coffee in the morning. Is that, like the simple
joys often are really the most kind of eye opening
(16:11):
and profound that we had missed previously. And so I
think joy is always an evolution and a constant changing dynamic.
But what a fun one, What a fun pillar to
really begin to work through. And I've seen many open
(16:32):
up and say, oh my gosh, that is the thing
that really has changed my whole life is to really
kind of anchor in and say what is it that
brings me joy?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, yeah, you know. I love the way you frame
that up.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It reminds me of a couple of things.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
One is a book I read not.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Long ago called Bittersweet by Susan Kane. She also wrote Quiet,
which is a book about introversion that's quite nice, But
this is she talks a lot about this idea of
that you mentioned too, about grief and joy being very intertwined,
and in fact, it's that exquisite painful experience of loss
(17:14):
or longing that reminds us of the joy that we
have in us, that you know, and that there's that
artists really are people that are in touch with that
sort of duality of grief and joy in the same experience.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So yeah, I like I.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Like I said, And you also remind me of another
attribute you talk about, which is gratitude something that nurtures
the spirit. I recently read something by Brother David steinel Rass,
who's this you know monk that just is the gratitude
Monk is kind of his nickname because he's so grateful
all the time. But he said that he several years
(17:55):
ago started a practice of finding gratitude every day for
something that he's never express gratitude for before, and he's
expressed a lot of gratitude. So that's quite amazing and
I found that just so inspiring. And anyway, so I'm
just wondering, you know what, what what have you seen
as the impact of gratitude, particularly in people who have
been diagnosed with cancer? And how do you incorporate that
(18:18):
into your healing work?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Yeah, I you know, I think gratitude is one of
the most potent medicines we all can do for ourselves, right,
And I think it's really it's it's an action rather
than an experience. And I think we think of it
it's going to land on us, right like a butterfly
or something. We're going to be graced by by the gratitude.
(18:42):
But it's really what I found is the more we
practice it intentionally, the more access, we get to the little,
the little moments of kind of circling back around to
our conversation about joy, right, And so the just kind.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Of logistical ways we can do that.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
And I think you probably at least have heard of these,
and many of us have, and it's just a reminder
to do them for ourselves. But greeting the day with gratitude, right,
what is it that makes us feel open and alive
and connected each day? And then to your point again, Lisa,
that how do we expand that bubble? How do we
(19:25):
name new things? How do we redefine what is making
us feel grateful each day? And as we start naming
all those new things, they become more prevalent, right, and
we become even more.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Grateful and more grateful.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
And so it really kind of begets itself and is
a self fulfilling.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Prophecy of gratitude.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
So greeting the day with gratitude is one gratitude jars, right,
keeping a jar and jotting down what makes us grateful,
and then any time that we need to be filled
up sitting that jar. So many ways gratitude journals, but
I usually would kind of ask, what is it that
(20:11):
really connects with you? Which of these practices really connect
with you? And then we make a commitment to do
that every day. However that looks and I think we
need reminders, right, reminders to do all of these things,
the connection, the joy, and the gratitude. But it really
is an action, right, something we do with intention every
(20:34):
day and it just really I think is transformational.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
It really is. Gratitude is so powerful.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, for sure, absolutely, And it doesn't take it doesn't
negate the difficulty of whatever the experience is around cancer treatment,
et cetera. It just infuses into our daily day to
day the acknowledgement of kind of both end. Right, So
we can have a very difficult, challenging experience and we
(21:04):
can also have a lot of And I think just
that balance is so helpful because otherwise we get pulled
just towards challenge all the time and with nothing to
balance it, that's when I think we get distressed. Yeah,
becomes hard for a spirit to soar. So what about purpose?
(21:24):
How does purpose support the spirit? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (21:29):
I love this idea of purpose and the Japanese have
a whole concept around it called ikey Guy, which I
recently came across and really resonated with and it's the
concept that refers to a reason for being or a
passion that gives life value and joy. And it's kind
(21:50):
of this intersection of mission and passion and profession and
purpose and what a powerful concept. And I went to
the literature because I'm a science nerd and I can't
help myself, and I went to the literature and said,
who studied this concept? Because and I'll circle back around
to this, I found it a really potent medicine. And
(22:12):
there's actually one hundred and eighteen publications looking at icky
Guy as an intervention from Japan and it's helpful for
depression and anxiety and quality of life. So there's actually
research around this. But I think in the context of
cancer is that we need a reason to get up
(22:37):
in the morning, right, We need something that lights the
fire inside us and to contribute to those around us
in some way. And so I've really had a joyful
opportunity to kind of brainstorm. And this is as part
of the process I think integrade of oncology consultations of
(23:02):
what gets you out of bed in the morning, what
lights your fire, and how do we nurture that because
that is medicine that will make you feel more alive
to sit in that chemotherapy chair and more resilient and
so that you can get out the next day. And
so I think there's a lot more work to be
(23:23):
done here. I think in the context of cancer, ach
guy and purpose has been really overlooked, I would say,
and understudied. And so that's going to be part of
my own path, I think, is to better understand this.
But I do think it's medicine. And I feel, as
you heard, I feel that inside me, it's the achy
(23:44):
guy that makes me alive and passionate and what makes
me want to work and connect with everyone around me.
So I think there's some really potent medicine in this
concept of ichy guy.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And I think too, when somebody is actually is faced
with the cancer that is advanced and has had to
abandon let's say their vocation or is beginning to recognize
they may not live long enough to see their children
reach adulthood or whatever the case might be, that their
(24:18):
sense of purpose might have to shift to. And I
some of the patients that I find to be the
most healed despite a state of their disease are those
that have asked themselves the question, you know, how can
this disease serve? How can this disease serve me in
my life?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Like? What could not that?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It's not the same thing as saying why did I
get this? It's more like, Okay, I'm in this experience,
now what purpose can this serve me?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
As a human?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
And I think that too, is such a powerful way
to move forward with something that's very difficult.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
We bet I'm wondering too, Lisa, because you're a survivor,
and how did this play for you and your healing?
And maybe even I wonder all of these concepts what
really resonates with you and your path? And I'm sure
that's all tied into your own sense of purpose and
ikey guy, Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I mean I think that all the things you've talked about,
you know, came up for me and in a very
fresh way. You know, I would say, like you, I've
devoted a good part of my life to my own
inner development. And when I was diagnosed with cancer and
stared at mortality in a more acute way, which is
(25:36):
what cancer diagnosis does, I think for a lot of us,
it really helped me to appreciate Wow, no, matter what
I do in life or accomplish or participate in, the
purpose behind it is to be more loving, to be
more kind, to connect with others, to find the joy
(25:58):
in as many moments as I can. So Yeah, I think,
if anything, it just settled these principles within me in
a very deep and very profound, unshakable way, which have
not left since.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
Wow. Now I love this concept of you know, connecting
with love too, and I think, you know, that's that's
something that is rising.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I think in medicine.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
As a culture, that that love is medicine and connecting
to our own love and the kind of collective love
of wanting to heal ourselves and one another.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
It's really a beautiful thing. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
So you're, you know, working in the belly of the beast,
so to speak. You know, you're in the middle of
conventional ecology. Of course, you have a lot of what
you do in the integrative oncology world as well. But
given your experience as a provider, how can oncology care
conventional oncology can become more engaged, not even engaged, but
(27:02):
more proactively engaged with the spiritual healthcare of those diagnosed
with cancer.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Yeah, and this is an area where I think I'm
going to really be devoting the rest of my career too.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I am so excited.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
I'm excited to be moving away from I'm still going
to be doing conventional care. But how do we create
a culture where this is just part of our repertoire
of caring for our patients. And as you know, I'm
really a passionate educator and building educational models, and so
(27:42):
the next step I think is to really start to
create models of education where every oncologist, every palliative care doctor,
every nurse and fusion nurse, palliative care nurse has some
has access at least to curriculum to have these conversations
(28:05):
and to really highlight that it is medicine, that this
is the heart of good, good medicine, and that we
really need to be, you know, teaching our next generation
that this is not you know, an add on, that
this is the heart and the core of what good
medicine looks like.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Right, good, fantastic. Well, I'm supporting you all the way,
and this has been such a great show. Unfortunately we're
kind of out of time. But how can our listeners
find you your book, anything else you'd like to share.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Oh my goodness, well the city of Hope, Orange County.
What I guess what I'd like to share is that,
you know, just to leave with the concept of empowerment,
right that, yes, it is important to follow traditional cancer
or care, and it is important to be thinking about
(29:03):
lifestyle medicine and what we eat matters, and how we
move matters, but it is also so so important to
nurture the all of these aspects within. And this is
what we can do ass patients ourselves, right, this is
what we can really lead, and so it's really empowering.
(29:24):
And so I guess that's the message I like to leave,
is just the true empowerment that this kind of medicine
can really give beautiful.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Well, on that wonderful note, we're going to wrap up
this episode of five to Thrive Live Again. I want
to thank our sponsors cognizanceticoline to help enhance memory, focus
and attention, immuse a post biotic for immune support, doctor
Rahira's Probiotics Award winning pre and probiotic formulas and pro
thrivers wellness supplements designed specifically for thrivers. And I hope
(29:59):
you listener have enjoyed your time with us. May you
experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to thrive. Everyone,
have a great night.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Loves Loves the Jay. The city is f
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