June 17, 2025 • 30 mins
On this episode of Five to Thrive Live, our guests, Laura Pole and Nancy Hepp from CancerChoice.org will share findings from their recent research review on vitamin D and cancer prevention, treatment toleration and cancer survival. Optimal dosing will also be discussed. You may be surprised at what you learn!
Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
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Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guests should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment programs.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to five to Thrive Live, a podcast about thriving
for those who have been affected by cancer and chronic disease.
I'm doctor Lise Auschuler and I co host with my
good friend Carolyn Gazella. You can find all of our
past show podcasts on iHeartRadio, Spotify, Pandora, iTunes, Stitcher, and
you can find schedule on ithriveplan dot com. Well tonight,
(01:03):
we have two guests with me, Lucky Me. I have
Laura Pole and Nancy Hepp. They're both from Cancer Choices
dot Org. You'll learn more about that organization, and we're
going to be talking about vitamin D in the context
of cancer. They're going to share some of the more
recent research findings around this very interesting vitamin. So before
we get to that, I'll tell you a little bit
(01:25):
more about them. Laura Pole is senior clinical consultant for
Cancer Choices. She is an oncology clinical nurse specialist who
has been providing integrative oncology, clinical care, navigation, consultation, and
educational services for over forty years. Nancy Hepp has a
master's degree, recently retired after serving as the first program
(01:47):
manager and lead researcher for content on Cancer Choices website,
where she researches and summarizes the best available evidence on
more than sixty complimentary cancer therapies and lifestyle practices. Now,
before we start a conversation, I want to thank our sponsors,
and the sponsors are Immuse, a unique, patented post biotic
(02:10):
that gives your immune system a key advantage. Ammuse is
an ingredient in many immune supporting dietary supplements. To look
for Ammuse on the label or go to immusehealth dot
com for more information. Also cognizanceticoline, which is nature's way
of keeping your brain functioning on all cylinders. So if
you want to enhance your brain's function, your memory, focus,
(02:32):
and attention, look for Cognizant on the label of your
dietary supplement or go to Cognizant dot com for more information.
We also thank pro Thrivers Wellness supplements, including pro Thriver's
Wellness Brain, which includes cognizant as well as some other
brain supporting nutrients and herbs. You can find pro Thriver's
Wellness Brain online at Pureformulas dot com. You can also
(02:55):
look for pro Thrivers Wellness Sleep, a supplement which combines
higher dosemail latonin and other sleep supporting natural ingredients specifically
designed for thrivers. And finally, doctor Orhira's Probiotics, a best
selling probiotic for over thirty years with twelve probiotic strains
which are shelf stable due to a unique three or
(03:16):
fermentation process and no refrigeration required. And you can learn
more at doctor Orhira Probiotics dot com. And with that,
I would like to welcome Laura Nancy. Hello, hellolcome to you.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Well.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I'm delighted to have you both on. I heard you
give a presentation on this topic at the Oncology Association
of Nature Pathic Physicians conference this last spring. Was very
impressed with the depth, breadth, and sophistication of your review,
and I know you did this review as part of
your work with Cancer Choices dot org. So Laura, let's
start with you tell us a bit about cancer choices.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Yeah, so, cancer choices which actually started our pilot in
two thousand Fife, so we've been around for ten years now.
We are a science based, an open access meaning it's
free website that provides information and guidance on integrative cancer
(04:14):
care to people with cancer, their caregivers and the healthcare
professionals who take care of them. And I would maybe
people in the audience know what I mean when I
say integrative oncology, but just to clarify, that is the
coordinated combination of conventional cancer care like chemotherapy, surgery, radiation,
(04:39):
alongside complementary therapies. And I don't mean their therapies that
complement you or they're free, but they complement conventional therapy
like therapies like acupuncture or things like vitamin D, as
well as combining lifestyle practices. So the three of those
make up the three pillars of integrative cancer care. And
(05:03):
we provide reviews of complementary therapies, like this review we
did of vitamin D. We also have handbooks on managing
symptoms and side effects and handbooks on lifestyle practices that
have benefiting people with cancer. We also have handbooks on
(05:24):
how to optimize your internal body terrain to make your
body less hospitable to cancer, along with lots of other information.
But that's sort of the basics, and we're really excited
that an independent review was published. It was a survey
of eleven websites that offer information on cancer, complementary and
(05:46):
alternative care, and our site was given the highest rating
for quality and trustworthiness of information.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
That is fantastic well deserved. I refer patients to cancer
choices dot org. I think it's a fit, fantastic, very reliable,
trustworthy place to get information.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
And you're going to hear a little bit more about
why as we go through this review.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So, Nancy, one of the reviews, obviously is that is
this one on vitamin D. So first of all, just
how would you describe the volume of research for vitamin
D specifically in cancer care when we compare it to
maybe the volume of research for other natural compounds.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Well, of the twenty five nancial products and supplements that
I personally have reviewed, vitamin D by far has the
most research that we were able to assess and summarize
and compare and find patterns in.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Yes, lots and lots.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
So let's start with a very very important, very kind
of fundamental question. Does this body of research support a
link between vitamin D deficiency and increased cancer risk.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Yes, yes, for both cancer as a whole and for
many specific cancer types, including the big ones of breast cancer, prostate,
lung cancer, colledirectol and includings. Have all other kinds of
gastro intestinal, skin cancer, kidney cancer, or very and thyroid,
many kinds of cancer. Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Okay, so vitamin D deficiency increases the risk of major cancers.
That is an important takeaway, and really I think why
so many more practitioners are in fact starting to test
people for vitamin D. But we'll come back to that
in a moment. Okay, let's just take it a step
further for a moment. So, Laura, what's the link between
(07:38):
vitamin D deficiency and cancer survival? So now we've already
been diagnosed with cancer, does it matter anymore?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yes, it does. We found evidence from the research that
we looked at of nine different cancers that people who
had low vitamin D levels don't tend to live as
long compared to those who have efficient vitamin D levels.
I don't know if you want me going to name the.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Nine cancers, Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Blood cancer, breast cancer, coorectal, stomach, liver melanoma, pancreatic cancer,
prostate cancer, and renal cancer. And they might be finding
more even as we are speaking today. But that's what
we found.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay, So we've got two very important take homes. Vitamin
D deficiency is associated with an increased risk of getting
cancer and an increased risk of dying from cancer. So far,
so taking this sort of a slightly different tact, Laura,
what does vitamin D sufficiency do in terms of the
experience of cancer itself? Are there benefits from being vitamin
(08:46):
D sufficient.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yes, on several different levels, and I'll talk a little
bit about each of these. There's a lower risk of cancer,
less chance of dying from cancer, better chance of living
longer if you have cancer, less problems with certain treatment
side effects, improved effectiveness of some treatments. So starting with
(09:09):
sufficiency in people who have bladder cancer, lung cancer, prostate cancer,
and colorectal cancer. In women, there's a lower risk of
bladder of these cancers. There's a lower risk of dying
from colorectal cancer, lung cancer, and prostate cancer. When your
(09:31):
levels are adequate, there's a better chance of living longer
in those who have lung cancer, children who get bone
mirror transplants, and if they have higher levels of vitamin
D they have lower risk of dying from that treatment
compared to children who had lower levels. Also, we're beginning
(09:52):
to see we call this kind of preliminary evidence better
outcomes from immune checkpoint inhibitor treatment as far as side
effects and symptom go. In general, people with low vitamin
D levels tend to have more side effects and symptoms
related to cancer or their treatment. As far as treatment
(10:14):
side effects go, people who have adequate levels may have
less pain from aromatase inhibitor therapy, which is a really
big deal, and less peripheral neuropathy caused by chemo. And
though the evidence isn't as strong, when you supplement vitamin
D and people who have low levels, they seem to
(10:35):
have better bone health, less fatigue, less inflammation of the
mucous membranes in their mouth, a less atrophy of the
vagina during tomoxithin. And I know you didn't ask about inflammation,
but it's interesting to note that in people with a
vitamin D deficiency who also have high levels of C
(10:56):
reactive protein ERP, which is Mark telling us there's inflammation
somewhere in the body. Their CRP levels go down as
you correct, but not overcorrect the deficiency with vitamin D supplementation.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Yeah, so this is really important. This is a bit
of a nuance.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I want to just explain, because it's one thing to
say vitamin D deficiency is associated with an increased risk
of cancer and an increased risk of death from cancer.
But one could still argue, well, that's not cause and effect.
Maybe the cancer caused the deficiency, but this data that
you just presented suggests that it actually is a causal relationship,
(11:38):
or at least a contributory relationship, because when vitamin D
is sufficient, all of those parameters change. Now the risk
of cancer is lower, the risk of death from cancer
goes down, and then of course all of the benefits
that you just mentioned in terms of side effects reducing,
better toleration, better efficacy of treatment. So really important kind
(11:59):
of overall, like, yes, stamp of approval of vitamin D
in relationship to cancer. Now we can't go too much
further is without discussing what we're talking about in terms
of the amount. So nancy is more better and are
there any situations which indicate that too much vitamin D
(12:21):
could be harmful.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Well, this is a very nuanced and complex answer, so
forgive me for taking a little more time. More is
not always better. The research we've looked at and we
have looked at hundreds of studies, and the patterns are
very consistent across studies that if you are deficient or insufficient,
(12:47):
which is an intermediate category between deficient and sufficient, if
you are below sufficiency, more raising your vitamin D serum
level is better on all of these parameters related to cancer.
Once you achieve sufficiency, it's not at all clear that
(13:09):
getting higher and higher and ever higher levels will bring
you any further benefits. Once you've achieved sufficiency, you're not
going to see much more benefit from raising your vitamin
D levels further. And in fact, men show a very
distinct U shaped curve for prostate cancer and lung cancer
(13:34):
for both risk of cancer and for survival after a
diagnosis whereat people with the lowest vitamin D levels have
a substantially higher risk of those two cancers lung in prostate,
almost double the risk of people who at sufficiency. But
also once the levels start getting too high, then also
(13:59):
it goes right back up and you have an increased
risk of cancer eighty to eighty five percent higher risk
of cancer or cancer mortality at levels that are higher
than just at sufficiency.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Right, So the little red riding hood, you know, the porridge,
too small, too big, just right, we've got that situation
going on with vitamin D. There's sort of a just
right spot, that trough or the bottom of the u
as you say, in that shaped curve. So let's get
very specific. Most people get when they get their vitamin
(14:36):
D level tested. It comes out as n anagrams per
mill leader in the United States, and there's some controversy
about testing because it's not considered one hundred percent accurate.
There's like a margin of error. But that being said,
when you say deficiency, what numbers are we talking about?
And when you say sufficiency, what numbers are we talking about?
Speaker 5 (14:57):
Okay, this is where it gets even trickier. Most as
you mentioned, most people in the United States get their
numbers and nanograms per milli leader. But there is another
unit of measure used, and that's nanimals per leader, and
that's what most of the published research uses. And if
(15:19):
I wanted to design something to confuse people, I don't
think I could have gotten better than calling one unit
nanograms per milli leader and the other animals per leader.
They both start with nano and they both end with leader,
but they are off by a factor of two and
a half, so that ten nanograms would be the same
(15:42):
as twenty five animals. Forty nanograms is one hundred animals.
So you really have to pay attention to the numbers
and make sure that you're comparing the numbers and the
unit that you've gotten to the recommendations. So with that background,
(16:06):
the numbers that we have used are from the Institute
of Medicine, and sufficiency begins at twenty nanograms per millileter
or fifty nanimals per milli leader I'm sorry, animals per lead.
So anything below that would be considered insufficient or even deficient.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And what would you consider to be the top optimal
level Because a lot of people now are supplementing with
vitamin D and their levels go up and up and up,
and you've talked about this U shaped curve, Is there
sort of a from the research any indication about a
top level.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Yes, for men, especially for prostate and lung cancer. The
upper limit where where we definitely see an uptick is
forty nanograms per milli leader or one hundred animals per leader.
There has been no upper margin identified for women, but
very little research has investigated levels above that forty nanograms
(17:12):
or one hundred animal left. So we don't know if
there is an upper level, and it just hasn't. We
haven't studied enough women who are above that level yet.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, And I think to add complication to this a
little bit is that you know, depending on somebody's condition,
like if somebody has osteoporosis, their tolerance or their need
for viting D is a little bit higher. They know,
the research seems to suggest that a higher zerum level
might be more beneficial, same with immune deficiencies. But for
(17:42):
the average person who doesn't have a condition, who's really
looking to vitamin D as a prevention, I think your
range of twenty to forty is very sound and that
seems to be very scientifically backed up. Would you agree, yes, Okay,
all right, so is the best way to adjust vitamin
(18:04):
D through supplementation?
Speaker 4 (18:06):
And again this is kind of a masking.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
This based on your review of the studies, Like most
studies that look at vitamin D and the impact of
changing vitamin D on outcomes. Are they using vitamin D
supplements or are they putting people outside in the sun.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Most of them are using supplements. It's so much better
to control our production of vitamin D within our skin
from sunlight depends so much on our skin color, so
that people with very pale skin will produce vitamin D
much more quickly than someone with very dark skin. And
(18:40):
the latitude and the season where we're at, So the
further we are from the equator, and the season of
the year, and how much direct sun we get, and
how many clothes we're wearing, and all of those things
will dramatically impact our vitamin D production. As a rule
of thumb, your skin is not producing any vitamin D
(19:01):
from sunlight. If your shadow is not shorter than you are.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
That's great, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So basically, what like ten am to two pm something
like that.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
And depending on the time of year. Now I live
north of Seattle, and we go from October until March,
where my shadow is never shorter than me, even at
new So it depends a lot on the season and
your latitude.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
As I said, okay, and vegans are particularly at risk
for vitamin D deficiency. Why is that because most Sorry.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Yeah, Laura, why don't you go ahead?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Okay, yeah, I'm the food here, although Nancy's a great
cook too, because many of the foods that contain vitamin
D are animal products, egg, yolks, cod liver, oil, fish oil,
wild caught fish like salmon, Oregon meat's like liver, butter. Now, mushrooms,
(20:04):
even medicinal mushrooms have that have been exposed to sunlight.
Isn't that interesting? They can be a source of vitamin
B D two, but your body has to convert that
to D three. And then there are of course of
products like dairy products oj soy milk and cereals which
have had vitamin D added. But you know, it's it's
(20:28):
not really You're not gonna get the amount of vitamin
D you need just from food alone.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Okay, so how do you this is a little bit off,
I mean, kind of a riff on that, but how
would you recommend that a vegan supplement vitamin D. I
was recently introduced to vegan vitamin D from from I
think it's like it, which was something I had not
(20:59):
been familiar with. And stand there's supplements now that are
available as vitamin D three from liking. But that's kind
of new to me. What do you have any other
ideas on that?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
No, that's a good question.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Lease.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Uh you know, we're going to talk about AI in
a little bit, but you know, I'm gonna have to
look that up. Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean, because I'm
not a vegan, I never looked at my supplements to see,
you know, where where the vitamin D was coming from.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Yeah, okay, man, do you know.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Uh no, this is new to me.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yeah. I think it's kind of a new thing.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Okay, so let's let's go back then, Laura, I want
to ask you one more question about.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Vitamin D.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
You talked about how reliable Cancer Choices is as a
source of information, and so you know, nowadays, with a
increasingly entering into our lives, people are googling and getting
searches through chat, GPT or some of the other back engines.
How would you compare that sort of the integrity of
(22:12):
that information compared to Cancer Choices And in general, how
do you advise people around doing the research using AI
for vitamin D related questions?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah? I want to if you're sitting in front of
your smartphone or or your computer, go to Cancer Choices
dot org and go to blog and community. In the
upper navigation column, we just published a piece on how
(22:47):
to use AI to navigate cancer information. So some tips
and considerations because and unfortunately I hear that even the newer,
supposedly most more powerful versions of AI are hallucinating more,
which hallucinating means it's making things up or putting things
(23:09):
that aren't accurate. So you know, we're not there yet
with AI being and it probably never will be faultless.
But and when you use AI in general, like if
you go on cancer choices and use AI assistant, it's
(23:29):
going to pull from within cancer choices, so you know,
we consider that to be reliable. But when you just
go to AI in general, it's going to pull from
the universe. So it helps to be to be know
what you want to ask it. Uh, So for instance,
(23:51):
you want to have some details, for instance, I'll give
you one. You want to explore integrative approaches to your
cant care, you can ask I'm going to submit details
about my specific diagnosis. And you are an integrative oncologist,
so talking to AI like it is, and after I
(24:12):
share my case, I want you to give me a
list of complimentary therapies that are going to help with
my side effects and want to interact with my treatment.
So you see how specific you need to be when
you're doing an AI query. So when you just put
more general things up there, it's just going to start
(24:32):
pulling from everywhere, and then you have to keep prompting
it to get more. But they don't know. They're not
trained to give you a right or wrong answer. It's
just looking for patterns, so they don't know if the
answer is always accurate. So, like I said, if you
(24:55):
go to trusted resources like Cancer Choices, ask which is
the American Society of Clinical Oncology PubMed about herbs from
memorial Sloan Kettering is another place to get information about
supplements and herbs. So you use some sites like that,
(25:19):
you're gonna get less of this problem from AI. So
you know, now the first thing when you do a
search on Google, the first thing that comes up. Maybe
it's good that it's not ads anymore, but it's gonna
be AI. So if you can get to Cancer Choices
and if the answer isn't there related to integrated oncology,
(25:44):
then you can actually ask us a question and we'll
see if we can find you an answer on there.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
You know, I think that what you just said is
I mean very important like these A is not quite
there yet.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
It's still generating.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
It's just a massive information and pulling it through with
no critical analysis of the information, which is what humans
are so better at, and that's what's really gone into
cancer choices. I know you have a very strenuous process
of creating the reviews and.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Vetting them and making sure that they're very reliable.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So thank you for doing that and putting all this
information out there. So I want to ask each of
you in our couple minutes left. I'll start with you, Nancy,
any final thoughts you'd like to leave with our listeners.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Yes, if you suspect or have any inclination that your
vitamin D levels might be low, get tested. If you
want to take vitamin D but you think you might
be sufficient already, get tested. So my bottom line is
get tested and then work with your health professional to
(26:57):
stay within a sufficient level without.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Over great And actually I should have made this clarification
at the get go, but all of us have just
been speaking about vitamin D, but in the way in
which we're talking about it, we're actually talking about the
circulating form of vitamin D, which is twenty five hydroxy
vitamin D or vitamin D three is another shorthand for it.
(27:20):
People like us often just shorthanded to vitamin D. But
just to make that point, because there are there is
vitamin D two which is available as a supplement that's
a slightly like a precursor to vitamin D three, and
so there's I just want to make that clarification. So
when you get your blood tested, like Nancy's recommending, you
(27:41):
would be testing your twenty five hydroxy vitamin D or
your vitamin D three level.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
And Laura, what about you?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, I will, you know, I second what Nancy said.
I navigate people with cancer some an inaugrade of oncology
nurse now gator and if there's any supplement, I ask
about and encourage people to not necessarily to take it,
but find out what your levels are and just ask,
(28:13):
you know, I just about advise everybody to check on that.
I'll add my functional medicine primary care doctor, and you know,
I was asking her about measuring my blood levels and
she said, well, we're going to measure it at the
end of the summer. And if you don't have adequate
levels from summer. You are certainly not going to have
(28:35):
enough to carry you through the winter, but that's when
it should be at its highest level. And that impressed
upon me and then your bat stores it and then
that takes you tied you you know, through the winter.
But yes, get your levels tested.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Great information. So if people are excited to learn more
about vitamin D and other complementary integrated therapy and they
want to investigate Cancer Choices again the website.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Www dot Cancer Choices all one word dot org.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
All right, well, thank you both so much, really appreciate
your work, your time tonight, and that wraps up this
episode of five to Thrive Live. We thank our sponsors
Amused post biotic for enhanced immunity, cognizanceticoli to help enhance memory,
focus and attention, Doctor or Heroes, Probiotics award winning pre
and probiotic formulas and pro thrivers wellness supplements designed specifically
(29:36):
for thrivers. Thank you listener for joining us. May you
experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to thrive everyone,
have a great night.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
H
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guests should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment programs.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to five to Thrive Live, a podcast about thriving
for those who have been affected by cancer and chronic disease.
I'm doctor Lise Auschuler and I co host with my
good friend Carolyn Gazella. You can find all of our
past show podcasts on iHeartRadio, Spotify, Pandora, iTunes, Stitcher, and
you can find schedule on ithriveplan dot com. Well tonight,
(01:03):
we have two guests with me, Lucky Me. I have
Laura Pole and Nancy Hepp. They're both from Cancer Choices
dot Org. You'll learn more about that organization, and we're
going to be talking about vitamin D in the context
of cancer. They're going to share some of the more
recent research findings around this very interesting vitamin. So before
we get to that, I'll tell you a little bit
(01:25):
more about them. Laura Pole is senior clinical consultant for
Cancer Choices. She is an oncology clinical nurse specialist who
has been providing integrative oncology, clinical care, navigation, consultation, and
educational services for over forty years. Nancy Hepp has a
master's degree, recently retired after serving as the first program
(01:47):
manager and lead researcher for content on Cancer Choices website,
where she researches and summarizes the best available evidence on
more than sixty complimentary cancer therapies and lifestyle practices. Now,
before we start a conversation, I want to thank our sponsors,
and the sponsors are Immuse, a unique, patented post biotic
(02:10):
that gives your immune system a key advantage. Ammuse is
an ingredient in many immune supporting dietary supplements. To look
for Ammuse on the label or go to immusehealth dot
com for more information. Also cognizanceticoline, which is nature's way
of keeping your brain functioning on all cylinders. So if
you want to enhance your brain's function, your memory, focus,
(02:32):
and attention, look for Cognizant on the label of your
dietary supplement or go to Cognizant dot com for more information.
We also thank pro Thrivers Wellness supplements, including pro Thriver's
Wellness Brain, which includes cognizant as well as some other
brain supporting nutrients and herbs. You can find pro Thriver's
Wellness Brain online at Pureformulas dot com. You can also
(02:55):
look for pro Thrivers Wellness Sleep, a supplement which combines
higher dosemail latonin and other sleep supporting natural ingredients specifically
designed for thrivers. And finally, doctor Orhira's Probiotics, a best
selling probiotic for over thirty years with twelve probiotic strains
which are shelf stable due to a unique three or
(03:16):
fermentation process and no refrigeration required. And you can learn
more at doctor Orhira Probiotics dot com. And with that,
I would like to welcome Laura Nancy. Hello, hellolcome to you.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Well.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I'm delighted to have you both on. I heard you
give a presentation on this topic at the Oncology Association
of Nature Pathic Physicians conference this last spring. Was very
impressed with the depth, breadth, and sophistication of your review,
and I know you did this review as part of
your work with Cancer Choices dot org. So Laura, let's
start with you tell us a bit about cancer choices.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Yeah, so, cancer choices which actually started our pilot in
two thousand Fife, so we've been around for ten years now.
We are a science based, an open access meaning it's
free website that provides information and guidance on integrative cancer
(04:14):
care to people with cancer, their caregivers and the healthcare
professionals who take care of them. And I would maybe
people in the audience know what I mean when I
say integrative oncology, but just to clarify, that is the
coordinated combination of conventional cancer care like chemotherapy, surgery, radiation,
(04:39):
alongside complementary therapies. And I don't mean their therapies that
complement you or they're free, but they complement conventional therapy
like therapies like acupuncture or things like vitamin D, as
well as combining lifestyle practices. So the three of those
make up the three pillars of integrative cancer care. And
(05:03):
we provide reviews of complementary therapies, like this review we
did of vitamin D. We also have handbooks on managing
symptoms and side effects and handbooks on lifestyle practices that
have benefiting people with cancer. We also have handbooks on
(05:24):
how to optimize your internal body terrain to make your
body less hospitable to cancer, along with lots of other information.
But that's sort of the basics, and we're really excited
that an independent review was published. It was a survey
of eleven websites that offer information on cancer, complementary and
(05:46):
alternative care, and our site was given the highest rating
for quality and trustworthiness of information.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
That is fantastic well deserved. I refer patients to cancer
choices dot org. I think it's a fit, fantastic, very reliable,
trustworthy place to get information.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
And you're going to hear a little bit more about
why as we go through this review.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So, Nancy, one of the reviews, obviously is that is
this one on vitamin D. So first of all, just
how would you describe the volume of research for vitamin
D specifically in cancer care when we compare it to
maybe the volume of research for other natural compounds.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Well, of the twenty five nancial products and supplements that
I personally have reviewed, vitamin D by far has the
most research that we were able to assess and summarize
and compare and find patterns in.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Yes, lots and lots.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
So let's start with a very very important, very kind
of fundamental question. Does this body of research support a
link between vitamin D deficiency and increased cancer risk.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Yes, yes, for both cancer as a whole and for
many specific cancer types, including the big ones of breast cancer, prostate,
lung cancer, colledirectol and includings. Have all other kinds of
gastro intestinal, skin cancer, kidney cancer, or very and thyroid,
many kinds of cancer. Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Okay, so vitamin D deficiency increases the risk of major cancers.
That is an important takeaway, and really I think why
so many more practitioners are in fact starting to test
people for vitamin D. But we'll come back to that
in a moment. Okay, let's just take it a step
further for a moment. So, Laura, what's the link between
(07:38):
vitamin D deficiency and cancer survival? So now we've already
been diagnosed with cancer, does it matter anymore?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yes, it does. We found evidence from the research that
we looked at of nine different cancers that people who
had low vitamin D levels don't tend to live as
long compared to those who have efficient vitamin D levels.
I don't know if you want me going to name the.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Nine cancers, Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Blood cancer, breast cancer, coorectal, stomach, liver melanoma, pancreatic cancer,
prostate cancer, and renal cancer. And they might be finding
more even as we are speaking today. But that's what
we found.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay, So we've got two very important take homes. Vitamin
D deficiency is associated with an increased risk of getting
cancer and an increased risk of dying from cancer. So far,
so taking this sort of a slightly different tact, Laura,
what does vitamin D sufficiency do in terms of the
experience of cancer itself? Are there benefits from being vitamin
(08:46):
D sufficient.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yes, on several different levels, and I'll talk a little
bit about each of these. There's a lower risk of cancer,
less chance of dying from cancer, better chance of living
longer if you have cancer, less problems with certain treatment
side effects, improved effectiveness of some treatments. So starting with
(09:09):
sufficiency in people who have bladder cancer, lung cancer, prostate cancer,
and colorectal cancer. In women, there's a lower risk of
bladder of these cancers. There's a lower risk of dying
from colorectal cancer, lung cancer, and prostate cancer. When your
(09:31):
levels are adequate, there's a better chance of living longer
in those who have lung cancer, children who get bone
mirror transplants, and if they have higher levels of vitamin
D they have lower risk of dying from that treatment
compared to children who had lower levels. Also, we're beginning
(09:52):
to see we call this kind of preliminary evidence better
outcomes from immune checkpoint inhibitor treatment as far as side
effects and symptom go. In general, people with low vitamin
D levels tend to have more side effects and symptoms
related to cancer or their treatment. As far as treatment
(10:14):
side effects go, people who have adequate levels may have
less pain from aromatase inhibitor therapy, which is a really
big deal, and less peripheral neuropathy caused by chemo. And
though the evidence isn't as strong, when you supplement vitamin
D and people who have low levels, they seem to
(10:35):
have better bone health, less fatigue, less inflammation of the
mucous membranes in their mouth, a less atrophy of the
vagina during tomoxithin. And I know you didn't ask about inflammation,
but it's interesting to note that in people with a
vitamin D deficiency who also have high levels of C
(10:56):
reactive protein ERP, which is Mark telling us there's inflammation
somewhere in the body. Their CRP levels go down as
you correct, but not overcorrect the deficiency with vitamin D supplementation.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Yeah, so this is really important. This is a bit
of a nuance.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I want to just explain, because it's one thing to
say vitamin D deficiency is associated with an increased risk
of cancer and an increased risk of death from cancer.
But one could still argue, well, that's not cause and effect.
Maybe the cancer caused the deficiency, but this data that
you just presented suggests that it actually is a causal relationship,
(11:38):
or at least a contributory relationship, because when vitamin D
is sufficient, all of those parameters change. Now the risk
of cancer is lower, the risk of death from cancer
goes down, and then of course all of the benefits
that you just mentioned in terms of side effects reducing,
better toleration, better efficacy of treatment. So really important kind
(11:59):
of overall, like, yes, stamp of approval of vitamin D
in relationship to cancer. Now we can't go too much
further is without discussing what we're talking about in terms
of the amount. So nancy is more better and are
there any situations which indicate that too much vitamin D
(12:21):
could be harmful.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Well, this is a very nuanced and complex answer, so
forgive me for taking a little more time. More is
not always better. The research we've looked at and we
have looked at hundreds of studies, and the patterns are
very consistent across studies that if you are deficient or insufficient,
(12:47):
which is an intermediate category between deficient and sufficient, if
you are below sufficiency, more raising your vitamin D serum
level is better on all of these parameters related to cancer.
Once you achieve sufficiency, it's not at all clear that
(13:09):
getting higher and higher and ever higher levels will bring
you any further benefits. Once you've achieved sufficiency, you're not
going to see much more benefit from raising your vitamin
D levels further. And in fact, men show a very
distinct U shaped curve for prostate cancer and lung cancer
(13:34):
for both risk of cancer and for survival after a
diagnosis whereat people with the lowest vitamin D levels have
a substantially higher risk of those two cancers lung in prostate,
almost double the risk of people who at sufficiency. But
also once the levels start getting too high, then also
(13:59):
it goes right back up and you have an increased
risk of cancer eighty to eighty five percent higher risk
of cancer or cancer mortality at levels that are higher
than just at sufficiency.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Right, So the little red riding hood, you know, the porridge,
too small, too big, just right, we've got that situation
going on with vitamin D. There's sort of a just
right spot, that trough or the bottom of the u
as you say, in that shaped curve. So let's get
very specific. Most people get when they get their vitamin
(14:36):
D level tested. It comes out as n anagrams per
mill leader in the United States, and there's some controversy
about testing because it's not considered one hundred percent accurate.
There's like a margin of error. But that being said,
when you say deficiency, what numbers are we talking about?
And when you say sufficiency, what numbers are we talking about?
Speaker 5 (14:57):
Okay, this is where it gets even trickier. Most as
you mentioned, most people in the United States get their
numbers and nanograms per milli leader. But there is another
unit of measure used, and that's nanimals per leader, and
that's what most of the published research uses. And if
(15:19):
I wanted to design something to confuse people, I don't
think I could have gotten better than calling one unit
nanograms per milli leader and the other animals per leader.
They both start with nano and they both end with leader,
but they are off by a factor of two and
a half, so that ten nanograms would be the same
(15:42):
as twenty five animals. Forty nanograms is one hundred animals.
So you really have to pay attention to the numbers
and make sure that you're comparing the numbers and the
unit that you've gotten to the recommendations. So with that background,
(16:06):
the numbers that we have used are from the Institute
of Medicine, and sufficiency begins at twenty nanograms per millileter
or fifty nanimals per milli leader I'm sorry, animals per lead.
So anything below that would be considered insufficient or even deficient.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And what would you consider to be the top optimal
level Because a lot of people now are supplementing with
vitamin D and their levels go up and up and up,
and you've talked about this U shaped curve, Is there
sort of a from the research any indication about a
top level.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Yes, for men, especially for prostate and lung cancer. The
upper limit where where we definitely see an uptick is
forty nanograms per milli leader or one hundred animals per leader.
There has been no upper margin identified for women, but
very little research has investigated levels above that forty nanograms
(17:12):
or one hundred animal left. So we don't know if
there is an upper level, and it just hasn't. We
haven't studied enough women who are above that level yet.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, And I think to add complication to this a
little bit is that you know, depending on somebody's condition,
like if somebody has osteoporosis, their tolerance or their need
for viting D is a little bit higher. They know,
the research seems to suggest that a higher zerum level
might be more beneficial, same with immune deficiencies. But for
(17:42):
the average person who doesn't have a condition, who's really
looking to vitamin D as a prevention, I think your
range of twenty to forty is very sound and that
seems to be very scientifically backed up. Would you agree, yes, Okay,
all right, so is the best way to adjust vitamin
(18:04):
D through supplementation?
Speaker 4 (18:06):
And again this is kind of a masking.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
This based on your review of the studies, Like most
studies that look at vitamin D and the impact of
changing vitamin D on outcomes. Are they using vitamin D
supplements or are they putting people outside in the sun.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Most of them are using supplements. It's so much better
to control our production of vitamin D within our skin
from sunlight depends so much on our skin color, so
that people with very pale skin will produce vitamin D
much more quickly than someone with very dark skin. And
(18:40):
the latitude and the season where we're at, So the
further we are from the equator, and the season of
the year, and how much direct sun we get, and
how many clothes we're wearing, and all of those things
will dramatically impact our vitamin D production. As a rule
of thumb, your skin is not producing any vitamin D
(19:01):
from sunlight. If your shadow is not shorter than you are.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
That's great, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So basically, what like ten am to two pm something
like that.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
And depending on the time of year. Now I live
north of Seattle, and we go from October until March,
where my shadow is never shorter than me, even at
new So it depends a lot on the season and
your latitude.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
As I said, okay, and vegans are particularly at risk
for vitamin D deficiency. Why is that because most Sorry.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Yeah, Laura, why don't you go ahead?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Okay, yeah, I'm the food here, although Nancy's a great
cook too, because many of the foods that contain vitamin
D are animal products, egg, yolks, cod liver, oil, fish oil,
wild caught fish like salmon, Oregon meat's like liver, butter. Now, mushrooms,
(20:04):
even medicinal mushrooms have that have been exposed to sunlight.
Isn't that interesting? They can be a source of vitamin
B D two, but your body has to convert that
to D three. And then there are of course of
products like dairy products oj soy milk and cereals which
have had vitamin D added. But you know, it's it's
(20:28):
not really You're not gonna get the amount of vitamin
D you need just from food alone.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Okay, so how do you this is a little bit off,
I mean, kind of a riff on that, but how
would you recommend that a vegan supplement vitamin D. I
was recently introduced to vegan vitamin D from from I
think it's like it, which was something I had not
(20:59):
been familiar with. And stand there's supplements now that are
available as vitamin D three from liking. But that's kind
of new to me. What do you have any other
ideas on that?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
No, that's a good question.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Lease.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Uh you know, we're going to talk about AI in
a little bit, but you know, I'm gonna have to
look that up. Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean, because I'm
not a vegan, I never looked at my supplements to see,
you know, where where the vitamin D was coming from.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Yeah, okay, man, do you know.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Uh no, this is new to me.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yeah. I think it's kind of a new thing.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Okay, so let's let's go back then, Laura, I want
to ask you one more question about.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Vitamin D.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
You talked about how reliable Cancer Choices is as a
source of information, and so you know, nowadays, with a
increasingly entering into our lives, people are googling and getting
searches through chat, GPT or some of the other back engines.
How would you compare that sort of the integrity of
(22:12):
that information compared to Cancer Choices And in general, how
do you advise people around doing the research using AI
for vitamin D related questions?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah? I want to if you're sitting in front of
your smartphone or or your computer, go to Cancer Choices
dot org and go to blog and community. In the
upper navigation column, we just published a piece on how
(22:47):
to use AI to navigate cancer information. So some tips
and considerations because and unfortunately I hear that even the newer,
supposedly most more powerful versions of AI are hallucinating more,
which hallucinating means it's making things up or putting things
(23:09):
that aren't accurate. So you know, we're not there yet
with AI being and it probably never will be faultless.
But and when you use AI in general, like if
you go on cancer choices and use AI assistant, it's
(23:29):
going to pull from within cancer choices, so you know,
we consider that to be reliable. But when you just
go to AI in general, it's going to pull from
the universe. So it helps to be to be know
what you want to ask it. Uh, So for instance,
(23:51):
you want to have some details, for instance, I'll give
you one. You want to explore integrative approaches to your
cant care, you can ask I'm going to submit details
about my specific diagnosis. And you are an integrative oncologist,
so talking to AI like it is, and after I
(24:12):
share my case, I want you to give me a
list of complimentary therapies that are going to help with
my side effects and want to interact with my treatment.
So you see how specific you need to be when
you're doing an AI query. So when you just put
more general things up there, it's just going to start
(24:32):
pulling from everywhere, and then you have to keep prompting
it to get more. But they don't know. They're not
trained to give you a right or wrong answer. It's
just looking for patterns, so they don't know if the
answer is always accurate. So, like I said, if you
(24:55):
go to trusted resources like Cancer Choices, ask which is
the American Society of Clinical Oncology PubMed about herbs from
memorial Sloan Kettering is another place to get information about
supplements and herbs. So you use some sites like that,
(25:19):
you're gonna get less of this problem from AI. So
you know, now the first thing when you do a
search on Google, the first thing that comes up. Maybe
it's good that it's not ads anymore, but it's gonna
be AI. So if you can get to Cancer Choices
and if the answer isn't there related to integrated oncology,
(25:44):
then you can actually ask us a question and we'll
see if we can find you an answer on there.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
You know, I think that what you just said is
I mean very important like these A is not quite
there yet.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
It's still generating.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
It's just a massive information and pulling it through with
no critical analysis of the information, which is what humans
are so better at, and that's what's really gone into
cancer choices. I know you have a very strenuous process
of creating the reviews and.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Vetting them and making sure that they're very reliable.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So thank you for doing that and putting all this
information out there. So I want to ask each of
you in our couple minutes left. I'll start with you, Nancy,
any final thoughts you'd like to leave with our listeners.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Yes, if you suspect or have any inclination that your
vitamin D levels might be low, get tested. If you
want to take vitamin D but you think you might
be sufficient already, get tested. So my bottom line is
get tested and then work with your health professional to
(26:57):
stay within a sufficient level without.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Over great And actually I should have made this clarification
at the get go, but all of us have just
been speaking about vitamin D, but in the way in
which we're talking about it, we're actually talking about the
circulating form of vitamin D, which is twenty five hydroxy
vitamin D or vitamin D three is another shorthand for it.
(27:20):
People like us often just shorthanded to vitamin D. But
just to make that point, because there are there is
vitamin D two which is available as a supplement that's
a slightly like a precursor to vitamin D three, and
so there's I just want to make that clarification. So
when you get your blood tested, like Nancy's recommending, you
(27:41):
would be testing your twenty five hydroxy vitamin D or
your vitamin D three level.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
And Laura, what about you?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, I will, you know, I second what Nancy said.
I navigate people with cancer some an inaugrade of oncology
nurse now gator and if there's any supplement, I ask
about and encourage people to not necessarily to take it,
but find out what your levels are and just ask,
(28:13):
you know, I just about advise everybody to check on that.
I'll add my functional medicine primary care doctor, and you know,
I was asking her about measuring my blood levels and
she said, well, we're going to measure it at the
end of the summer. And if you don't have adequate
levels from summer. You are certainly not going to have
(28:35):
enough to carry you through the winter, but that's when
it should be at its highest level. And that impressed
upon me and then your bat stores it and then
that takes you tied you you know, through the winter.
But yes, get your levels tested.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Great information. So if people are excited to learn more
about vitamin D and other complementary integrated therapy and they
want to investigate Cancer Choices again the website.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Www dot Cancer Choices all one word dot org.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
All right, well, thank you both so much, really appreciate
your work, your time tonight, and that wraps up this
episode of five to Thrive Live. We thank our sponsors
Amused post biotic for enhanced immunity, cognizanceticoli to help enhance memory,
focus and attention, Doctor or Heroes, Probiotics award winning pre
and probiotic formulas and pro thrivers wellness supplements designed specifically
(29:36):
for thrivers. Thank you listener for joining us. May you
experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to thrive everyone,
have a great night.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
H
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