May 5, 2025 • 47 mins
Fear holds many back from becoming their best selves. Jill Schulman, expert in leadership and positive psychology, shares how to build bravery like a muscle, take courageous action, and curate relationships that support growth. Learn the science-backed strategies to overcome fear and live without regret.
https://www.jillschulman.com
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https://www.jillschulman.com
Inspire Vision Podcast is broadcast on K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Inspire Vision Podcast TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Inspire Vision Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek
(00:22):
the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any
suggested ideas.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
At the end of the day, it's not about what
you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what
you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,
who you've made better. It's about what you've given back
Thanzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is
to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you
(00:51):
to do the same.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Jill, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Hey, this is real, rare, great topic. It's for me.
It just really struck me hard when I saw that
this is what you talked about, because I've been considering
this particular topic and relationship to helping people to understand
how to really become their better selves. And we'll get
into that. But what I'd love for you to do
(01:18):
is to kind of share with the audience your journey.
Who are you, what is your past, and how did
you come to this point in time where you're talking
about bravery. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Sure, So I started my life journey in the Midwest
in Minnesota, and then my first career was blowing things
up in the Marine Corps. I was a United States Marine.
I was a combat Engineer officer, and then I moved
from being someone who was responsible for marines that would
(01:51):
blow things up to then I started selling drugs, the
legal kind right pharmaceutical industry. I went into Corporate America.
Fell in love with science and the industry of helping people,
so I went into that industry. So I worked in
Corporate America for thirteen years, and then I realized how
(02:14):
much I valued so much of the personal development and
the leadership development. I realized that just because I was
a United States Marine Corps officer doesn't mean I was
a great leader yet, and I learned so much about
how to look at myself and become a better person,
how to be a better leader. And so I ended
(02:36):
up moving into that space doing leadership development inside of
a Fortune one hundred company and then that was my
jumping off point and I started my own company. It
had such an impact on me as a leader as
a person. I really loved just helping others become their
best self. So I've had my company for now ten years,
(02:57):
and a few years ago, just because I love learning
and growing, I decided to go back to school and
study and I decided to study the science of happiness
and well being or positive psychology, which I feel like
a lot of people are talking about the science of happiness,
And what I ended up researching and really honing in
(03:19):
on as I did my research for my capstone project
was really what we're talking about today, which is how
do people how do you help people really become their
best selves, accomplish the meaningful things they want in life,
and what really holds them back? And that led me
to realizing that sometimes fear like people really want to
(03:40):
do things, they want to accomplish things, but they don't
do it, and what's the reason they let fear hold
them back? So I was become obsessed and said, how
do I help people overcome that fear? Because if you
don't overcome that fear and you stay, you stay in
this comfort zone. Right, then you live a life of regret,
(04:02):
and then you don't see how great like life can be.
So that's what landed me where I am today now,
I write, I speak, I research the science of bravery.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Oh I love that, and you know it's so true.
I'm glad you brought up fear because I was hoping
you would talk about that, because what I have found
is that fear, as you say, it stops so many
people in so many ways. You know, I've interviewed a
lot of people who talk about how they're continually getting
into these bad relationships and they don't get out of them,
(04:38):
and they keep getting attracted to the same time and
so forth. And as I've looked at that, and as
we've talked about that, I think one of the key
elements is the fear of change, the fear of something,
the fear of the unknown versus being able to accept
I mean, comfortable with the known, creates such a such
(04:58):
a dichotomy because then they're not able to get out,
as you say, and I actually do what they want
to do. And I'm loving the pictures. It's just behind
you is that Buddha.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
There is Buddha. And then if you look around my
office I have everything's very intentional. There let me see
way down, I'm trying to get my fingers right here.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
But right up.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
There that is Epictetus, right stoke philosopher. That's Marcus Aurelius
right there. So yeah, I have a lot of a
lot of different inspiring figures that really influence my work
and create the environment to call forth my best work.
So yeah, and then.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Isn't it interesting those philosophies? And I found as I've
studied many of them that I really look at what
are the similarities, and there's so many similarities between that
and the whole goal is to help people not to suffer.
And that's one of Buddha's mad because this is not
to suffer. And yet here you have and here we're
(05:57):
talking about how people areeing that suffering in their lives
because of fear, because of the inability to move forward.
So let's talk about that a bit. When you talk
about the science of bravery, what would you say that.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Is, well, it's looking at what are the things that
we know with the scientific evidence to back it up
on how we can build bravery so that people can
step forward in the presence of fear, because look at
what is bravery? I get that question. Then what is
(06:35):
bravery and what is it not? So bravery is defined
as not eliminating fear. It's not becoming fearless, it's not
it's not waiting until you're perfectly ready in confidence. So
bravery is taking steps forward in the presence of fear.
So that's the first thing that people need to understand.
(06:57):
I think that's why people don't take steps forward, keep
waiting until they're not scared anymore. Well, it's not gonna
happen if you're gonna wait until you're ready, if you're
gonna wait until there's no fear, then you're probably never
gonna take a step forward, and that's why they get stuck. Right. So,
so that's what bravery is. And then you add the
science of bravery. You know, let's look at the scientific
(07:18):
rigor behind. What are things that people can do to
build bravery? And what I'm excited to share with the
world is there's things that anyone can do to build
their bravery. And I use an analogy of it's like
a muscle. You know, if you want to build a
bicep and you have you don't have very strong muscles.
(07:39):
You're gonna go to the gym and you're going to
keep working out that muscle until it gets stronger. Well,
what we know about bravery, there's things that you can do,
think of exercises for your bravery muscle, for your brain
that can help you build that capacity for bravery so
you can take those courageous, courageous actions. So so I
call it the science of bravery because I think there's
(08:00):
a lot of people that are just kind of motivational
and be like, just go out there and be brave
and rah rah, right, you know, which I appreciate their
passion and they're trying to help people. But I feel
like I have a responsibility because like I'm a nerd,
Like I'm not going to just tell you what I
think you should do to be brave. I got to
tell you the things that I know with scientific certainty
(08:21):
that if you do these things, it will lead to
you being braver and then stepping forward toward what you
want and that's going to lead to your greatest life.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
So yeah, and you know, the question that I have
had oftentimes is, in fact, I was talking to someone
that I interviewed just last week, and I asked, you know,
she's doing a lot of astrology and that kind of stuff,
and I said, so are you doing life coaching? And
her comment was I was, but I quit because people
(08:55):
never were able to get aware of what the issues were.
And so as you talk about bravery, and you're talking
about you know, as you were in the Marines and
you were with you know, obviously observing fighting going on
and that type of thing, and also now in the
corporate world where what you're doing, how many times do
(09:15):
you find that they're not even aware of the issues
that they need to be brave about.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Yeah, I mean first is awareness. Yeah, I think that
I think what people are unaware of. I think people
mistakenly think that the path to happiness and well being
is staying comfortable. As you use the word suffering earlier. Right,
(09:43):
I don't want to suffer, so I should just stay
comfortable and I shouldn't take any risks because isn't that
what will bring me happiness? But I need to tell
everyone the truth, right, and the truth is choosing the
easy path. Staying comfortable all the time is the to suffering. Right,
So that awareness comes about when you when you help
(10:06):
people understand that when you step into challenges, when you
step toward things that you're scared of, those are the
things that are going to bring you the greatest levels
of happiness and well being and fulfillment. But it seems
kind of counterintuitive, and and Doug, especially right now, I
think that our world has gotten a little too soft.
(10:29):
We're getting a little too soft trying to take away
all like, let's take away stress, let's take away discomfort,
if there's any adversity, let's take it away. It's just
not it's not realistic. I mean, I think the younger generation.
I can say this because I've got two teenage daughters.
I think there's just a culture of just let me
have more me days and and and you know, I
(10:53):
just I want I want my me day. I want
things to be easy. If you have a me day,
a self careday six out of seven days, you're just
being lazy and you just don't want to get uncomfortable.
If you have a self care of me day once
a week, then it's a good rest to be able
to get back to doing the hard thing. So I
(11:15):
think in general, the pendulum is swung too far. And yes,
you know, I believe that sometimes people can encounter too
much stress and diversity, and they do need to get
a little bit of a rest. But just in general,
our world is getting too soft, and I guess I'm
on a mission to help people understand that they are
stronger than they think, and if they try to step
(11:36):
into things that are hard and uncomfortable, that will actually
lead to a more comfortable, better life.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, and you know, you talked about the culture of softness,
and I totally agree with you on that, but also
what I observe is a culture of anger. And you know,
it's it's fascinating. I've got a good friend that all
of a sudden, I'm starting to see a bunch of
posts that are just there's a sense of anger in
each of those posts, and particularly with all the changes
(12:06):
that have taken place politically and so forth, all of
a sudden, here's all these posts going on about anger, anger, anger.
And it was interesting because I looked at that and
I thought, you know, what, we tend to allow ourselves
to be angry. And my experience is is if you
look at that, that anger, if you really try to
analyze that, that goes back deeper than just what's happening today.
(12:30):
It goes back into that childhood, It goes back into
whatever experiences so that when a trigger occurs, that anger arises.
And I think so many people are not willing to
really look at that. So how do you help people
as you're working with people, particularly the leadership that you
do with the leadership training, how do you help a
leader that's struggling to really be willing? Is the bravery
(12:57):
to be looking at introspectively what's really going on in
my life, what's causing this type of behavior and this
type of emotion which then reflects in my behavior.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Well, I think when people look in the mirror and
have to be honest and a little bit vulnerable, that's
the ultimate form of bravery. Right. It's very easy to
point the fingers of blame on why things are not
going well, but we've got to take some ownership there.
You to talk about people being angry, like, you know,
(13:32):
I spend a lot of time teaching leaders about emotional intelligence, right,
just teaching them that I understand that things happen and
you have these emotional responses, but these things are going
to continue happening. The world is is there's always going
to be stressed, There's going to be adversity things that
are happening, but you have the choice on how to
(13:55):
how you let that impact you. Right, So, emotional intelligence,
things happen, You've got the triggers, but how you respond
to those triggers ultimately impacts your life the life of
the people that you lead. So are you just going
to become a victim and allow events happening in the
world just dictate your mood and control you or are
(14:18):
you going to decide that You're going to decide how
to respond in the best way to best serve you,
the team that you lead, and your family. So, like
I say, look in the mirror, right, what is the
impact of you getting angry and just and then letting
that angry eat you up? And is that really what
you want? So I think a lot of the work
(14:38):
that I do is I want people to really look
in the mirror and go, what is it that you
really want in life? What is the impact that you
want to have in life? And what's holding you back
from being able to accomplish it? And usually fear is
that root cause?
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Well, and you know you're working with the corporate America.
But what I have found and I say, but and
what I have about is that each one of us
in our lives needs to be that individual leader. And
so what you talk about, in my opinion, is so
important just for individuals to understand that, you know, what,
(15:22):
their lives are dictated by their own personal leadership, and
so everything that you're talking about is it is so
true and applies to that. Now, I know you talk
about three pillars of bravery, and I'd love for you
to talk about that a little bit more and we'll
get into that discussion.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Yeah. Well, as I just want to add onto what
you're saying, which is a great link into the three pillars,
which sometimes the hardest person to lead is to lead yourself.
So the three pillars that I talk about I commonly
reference as self leadership. Right, so we've got to be
great self leaders right first before we can lead others.
So you know this, these three pillars that would be
(16:00):
going over with you, this is really for an individual
to be able to apply the way I'm gonna explain it.
But then the job of the leaders is how do
you develop your team employees that are self leaders. If
you can have a team of self leaders that have
these three pillars, they're doing it consistently, then you're going
to be the best leader ever. But let's start like
thinking of the individual. So in order for someone to
(16:22):
build this capacity for bravery, there's really three different dimensions
of things that you know, exercises that we can do
to build the skill, and they're all interconnected. So if
you start moving on one, it ends up impacting another dimension.
So they're all like interconnected. So there's brave mindset, there's
brave actions, and there's brave relationships. And when you leverage
(16:46):
all three together, it absolutely creates this upward spiral and
helps you achieve those things that you've always wanted that
you're fearful of. So brave mindset is really believing that
you can achieve hard things. It's believing that with hard
work and effort you'll be able to develop that new skill,
(17:07):
that you'll be able to accomplish that goal. So a
lot of the research that's under my brave mindset comes
from Carol Dweck, who's known for her growth mindset using
the power of yet. Like if I say I have
this goal that I want to run a five k race,
and I say to myself, right, I'm not a runner.
(17:28):
What am I kidding me, I could never do that.
I'm not a runner. You just think of like add
that power of yet, I'm not a runner yet, or
I could not run a five k yet. So if
you use that word yet, what it does it unlocks
our perception of thinking, like our skills and abilities are
(17:48):
not fixed. With hard work and effort, I can get there.
So brave mindset is and there's four different things that
I teach there and I don't need to go into
all of them, but it's all these different really cognitive
skills of believing that it's possible. Imagine if someone doesn't
believe it's ever possible to do something really hard, Well,
if you don't believe it's possible, then you're not going
(18:10):
to take action. So we got to start working on
the mindset first.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
And actually I want you to talk about those four elements.
You don't have to go into it in depth, but
I'll just kind of list them. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Yeah. So one is what I talked about in terms
of growth mindset, so believing that it's possible using the
power of yet. The second thing is that stress is
enhancing mindset coming from Aliah Crumb Kelly McGonagall, where they
have done a lot of research on your mindset on
stress or challenges is predictive of your response to stress.
(18:45):
So it's really changing people's mindset instead of thinking like, oh,
stress and adversity or challenges are horrible, it's shifting it
to challenges our opportunities for me to grow skills and
get stronger. When I experience stress, this is my body
responding in a way to help me perform at my best. Right,
(19:08):
I can feel my heart pumping, I can feel breathing.
This is my body preparing me to do my best,
so that stress is enhancing mindset. Third is really all
around positive emotions Barbara Frederickson's work. Also Marty Seligman, father
of positive psychology, on his Learned Optimism, it's teaching people
that you do not have to be victim victims of
(19:32):
your emotions back to emotional intelligence. Instead, we can acknowledge
the emotions that we feel right, but then we can
actually generate the emotions that are gonna best serve us,
the teams that we lead, or the people in our lives.
So it's all the research there on generating positive emotions.
(19:52):
And then finally the fourth thing and brave mindset is
for us to really take control of our self talk.
You know, many of us have this little internal voice.
Actually we all do. We all have this internal chatter
of things that we tell ourselves. And many times that
internal chatter is this this voice that says, you can't
(20:13):
do it, you suck, you're a loser, You're never going
to be able to do this. So sometimes we have
this little voice in our head that is saying always negative,
like pessimistic things. And this goes back to teaching people
that you have the power to be able to refute
those things and change that constant dialogue in your head
(20:33):
because those words you keep hearing do have an impact
on your performance. So there's ways that we can try
to change that internal dialogue to better service. So those
are the four practical strategies that I teach and break.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Will and I love that last one because you know,
we talk so much about mindset, and one thing we
don't talk about as much some do is the fact
that here's these neural pathways that have been developed. It's habitual.
So as you talk about I'm not good enough, all
of these imprints that we developed as young children or whenever,
(21:08):
it's habitual because it's been impregnated into our mind along
those neuropathways, and so the ability as you were talking about,
to be able to change those and science tells us
now that you can literally take a neural pathway, move
it to the side, and create a new one which
(21:29):
is much more positive.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Yeah, and this goes back to my analogy of building
a muscle, Like the first time you go into the
gym and try to lift some really heavy dumbbells, like,
it's going to be hard and you're going to be sore.
So as you start working on building your bravery and
start doing some of these exercises or in the academic word,
they call them interventions, but it's just exer kind of
(21:52):
brain exercises. In practice, it's going to be hard in
the beginning because you don't really have that part of
your brain isn't as strong, and you don't have as
many neuropathways. But you do the work and then just
like your muscle goes, oh god, that was a hard workout.
I better make that muscle stronger, our brain does the
same thing. So our neuroplasticity, like it'll start building and
then it gets This is the thing, is it gets
(22:13):
easier over time. Right, we get cortical thickening. So like
our brains are like in a way. I mean, they're
not muscles, but I love the analogy because you know,
parts of our brain can literally get thicker when we
work them out. And then, as you talked about neuropathways,
we're going to start creating many more new neural pathways
to light up that part of our brain. So we've
(22:34):
got more super highways going to that part of our
brain and that part of our brain, and so it does.
It actually gets easier over time. And that's when I
say you're developing this capacity for bravery. It's hard in
the beginning, but once you start getting some momentum, it
gets easier over time.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
So are you using affirmations to help people use affirmations
to use meditation? I know one thing that I do
is as I'm meditating, I like the concept of very
specific meditative quote affirmations that I will say out loud
as I'm doing my walking meditation to literally, you know,
(23:10):
be able to start to change those areas that I
find I struggle with. And if I'm doing that constantly, constantly,
that starts to change that neural pathway. What's your approach
on that how to help people to kind of do.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
That, you know, I think there's a lot of different
ways we can try to help people change that internal dialogue.
One of the ones that I learned when when I
was when I was at U Penn earning my master's
in positive psychology, I was sitting in a class and
one of my professors was doctor Karen Revick, and she
(23:45):
told me a way to change our internal dialogue. And
for me, it absolutely worked, and I found it's been
really really practical for my audiences especially, I've got to
I got to admit something to sometimes if things feel
a little too soft and a little too woo woo,
(24:06):
I kind of like roll my eyes or in my
audience when I go to Corporate America and I've got
all of these business people, like sometimes what I teach them,
I've got to make sure just it makes sense to
them where they're going to do it. Where if I
start talking about we're going to start meditating, and we're
going to start with affirmations, like I might lose them
(24:28):
right there right exactly now. So So I when I
was doing my research too, I'm like, what are the
what are some of these things I can teach people
to do that that almost everyone it would be willing
to do. And I have this test, like if my
husband would do it, then anyone will do it because
he's the one that will roll his eyes. So it's like,
do will it pass like my husband's test. So what
(24:51):
she recommended is she says, you know when you're when
you're listening to that in your dialogue, she goes, I
just want you to listen to it, and when you realize, like,
is that really help helping me? And if the voice
in your eye is not helping you, you got to
recognize it and say, huh, like let's change this. Let's
change it. So first of all is awareness, awareness of
like listen to that internal voice and if it's not
(25:12):
helping you, let's decide to do something about it. So
I love that in terms of awareness, and then her
strategy that she taught in classes, she goes, I want
you to imagine that that exact same thing that you're
telling yourself in your head, you just heard someone you
care about say out loud about themselves. Maybe it's your child,
maybe it's your best friend, it's someone that you care
(25:32):
about deeply. You've just heard him say those horrible things
that you said in your own like I can't do it,
I'm not good en not whatever those things are. And
then she says, what would you say to that loved one?
What's the truthful thing that you would say to that
you know? And she calls it, what is the truth
that you want to try to tell them? And if
it was one of my teenage daughters, I would say,
(25:53):
that is absolutely not true. You do have the ability.
It's going to take some time and effort, but you
are you are great, you are capable. You can do it.
So those affirmations I sneak them in there. I sneak
them in there, but I do it with Karen Riiviick's
you know, her strategy here is if you just think
about how do you overcome it? Recognize when you're saying
(26:13):
something to yourself that isn't helping you, and then imagine
what you would say to somebody else that you care about,
how would you help them change their thinking? And you
apply that to yourself. Be that person that helps with
your own internal dialogue. So when you kind of do this,
when you detach yourself from the thoughts and say, what
would an outside person that cares about me, say to me.
(26:34):
It helps people come up with that really easily and
they think it's it makes sense and it's not too
wu wu where most people actually do that. So that's
one of the primary strategies I uset. I just sneak
it in.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
There well, and it reminds me. As I went back
to business school and got really into human behavior, one
of the things that they talked about is step outside
of yourself. And you know, so when you're talking about awordeness,
step outside of yourself and observe what's going on. But
then I love what you say there also step outside
of yourself and start to talk to yourself. And I
(27:08):
love that approach. I think that's brilliant.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Yeah, and it's just simple. It's just it's a simple
way of doing it.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, it really is. So there's the brave mindset. Now
let's talk about the brave action all right.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Well, the reason why it's so important to go to
these other two dimensions of bravery is there I think
a lot of people out there that there their dreamers.
They set goals, they believe they can do anything, but
then they don't take a step forward. So so brave
action is you know, the brave mindset opens up the
(27:43):
door for possibility, but brave action is stepping through that door.
So brave action are what are some of the evidence
based practices that help people take that step through the door.
So so one of them that I teach my clients
so we can go back to my like my strategies.
One is set a tangible goal. So once you set
that tangible goal of what is it that you want
(28:05):
to accomplish, you've got to make sure that it's both meaningful, right,
so it matters, it really matters to you intrinsically. It's
got to be something that's important to you, and it
also has to be challenging. It's got to get you
out of your comfort zone. And then it's also got
to be specific. Due to Lock and Latham's research on
you know, goal setting theory, So if you believe that
you can do hard things and you kind of have
(28:25):
a wish, then we got to get to the work
of saying, let's set that tangible goal and let's make
sure that's written down right. And then the next step
after you develop that goal is I use the analogy
of a ladder, and I think it's been used. I don't.
I don't know who to give credit to for the
ladder analogy. I certainly didn't come up with it. But
if if you think of your goal as the top
(28:47):
rung to this ladder, right, and then of course your
ladder is leaning against the thing that's very meaningful to you.
So think of that analogy. Now you need to come
up with what are the what are the rungs to
the ladder that will lead you to the top. So
breaking down how to accomplish the goal in those achievable
steps makes you feel more comfortable to take that step.
(29:10):
So it's developing those implementation intentions in the literature, but
you still can't stop there. So one of the keys
to being able to achieve your goal, and this is
coming from someone who's an expert in positive psychology, is
thinking about what will get in your way and what
will go wrong. This is doctor Gabrielle Uttengen's research where
(29:33):
she talks about if you really want to achieve something
that's important to you, you need to anticipate the adversity
the challenges, both externally and many times internally, and then
develop contingency plans on what you're going to do if
that happens. Imagine I set a goal I want to
go to the gym each day. That's those are my
(29:54):
little steps. It's really thinking about what might get in
my way of getting to the gym. Ternal challenges would
be like there's a blizzard, there's no way I can
get to the gym, or maybe my car battery doesn't work.
But most of the times it's not those external things,
you know. It usually is it's us and you know.
And so she really has you go through and identify
(30:17):
the things that may get in your way from taking action,
and then she has you do contingency planning. So I
love her work, which is absolutely brilliant. So you actually
want to think about what may get in your way
and develop a ingency plan so that way, when it happens,
you just go right into action. You've got your ntingency plan.
Or when something goes wrong, instead of like the sky
(30:39):
is falling, like you know what, this isn't working and
I'm just going to quit, you're ready, you psychologically like
ready when there's a challenge, because if you're setting a
challenging goal, there are going to be bumps in the road.
So when a bump in the road, happens. You're not
going to just go in the corner and cry and
say it didn't work. You're going to be able to
overcome it.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Well, I love that, And you know, when when I
was working with small businesses, I never got into the
corporate area. But I love your ladder analogy and because
what I would do and using that analogy, I'd say, Okay,
what's your goal? What's your dream? Now, here's the top wrong,
this is what you're achieving. Let's go to the wrong
right before that? What would have to happen here for
(31:20):
you to achieve that? And then okay, if you have
done that, what do you need to do here on
this rung in order to achieve that? And then you
start working backwards and all of a sudden, that's where
the awareness of oh my goodness, I've got to start.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Right here, we got to start right here. And then
but they at least see like they see the steps
and that first step is something they think they can do.
And then the last part of brave action gets to
ruthless planning, prioritization, and focus. We are naturally wired many
(31:55):
times to procrastinate. Are you procrastinator? I'm a procrastinator? If
I don't. So if we've got a big project or
a goal and we know that we've got to get
things done, we wake up in the morning and usually
the first thing that we do is not the hard thing.
We will do the easy thing, the easy thing, and
then we wait until the end of the day do
the hard thing, and many times at the end of
the day we just push it to tomorrow. So this
(32:18):
is developing the discipline to decide what do I need
to do each day or at a minimum each week.
You can look at your Sometimes if you have a
big goal, maybe you'll work on a big goal like
two days a week. But you've got to do the
ruthless planning, prioritization, and you have to attack those hard
tasks first thing in the morning. So you got to
(32:40):
run at the really hard things. And when you do
that first thing in the morning, you get a dopamine hit,
you feel so accomplished, and you become more productive throughout
the day. So instead of putting off the hard thing,
it's teaching people that you wake up first thing in
the morning and you go right after the hardest thing,
the thing that you maybe even be dreading, the thing
(33:02):
that you're dreading, doing or the most uncomfortable. If you
start with that, it's amazing how you can start training
your brain to again attack the hard things, get him
going first thing in the morning, and then you're so
much more productive and you start getting this momentum. You've
ever heard of Brian Tracy in the business world, remember.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
That name, Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Okay, So he wrote the book called Eat that Frog right,
and his whole book was he said, Mark Twain at
this this, this this phrase, like, if you eat a
frog first in the morning, there's nothing harder that you're
going to do, and your day is going to go great.
So he's the one who I think sold, you know,
thirty eight million copies of that book. But the whole
concept was ruthless planning, prioritization, and focus. If you really
(33:45):
care about the goal, you need to get after it
first thing each day. And it's really hard in the beginning,
but you develop that habit of doing that, and then
you crave that dopamine hit. You want to get that
hardest thing done well.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
And you know you talked about originally, you know, the
call sure easy. How many times do you see people
trying to jump those rungs. In other words, go for
wrung number two to run number five and not worry
about three four.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
And what happens when they do that, well, you know,
I mean sometimes good things can happen and maybe they
have to skip a step, but you know it, you
know so many things, and maybe I'm gonna get a
little too deeper philosophical here is you know, getting up
to the top of the ladder. That is a great goal,
and you do want to achieve the goal, but really
(34:33):
the thing that we're really striving for is not just
achieving the goal at the top and getting to the top.
It's it's who we're becoming on the journey, the transformation
that we're experiencing, right because guess what what happens when
you get to the top ring, You know, when you achieve.
If you're always waiting to be happy when you get
(34:55):
to the goal accomplishment, then it's not going to last
very long, right, Like we'll be happy for a day
or but then it's like what is the next thing?
So like it's getting it's learning how to love the
journey of taking brave action and when you develop these
have it it's something that serves you and it's like
you're growing and you're developing along the way. So it's
(35:15):
really what I love about the science of bravery is
when people start putting this into practice and you ask them,
like what impact has it had, they don't really talk
about achieving the goal. They're like, it's the person that
I've become.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
And that's yeah, yeah, I love that. In fact, I
talk about that a lot because it's like, you know,
you look at your behavior and it's merely a reflection
of who you are. And so when people are trying
to change outcomes in their lives, it's not a matter
of doing this, doing this, doing this. It's becoming and
(35:49):
as you say, going up the steps of the ladder,
it's a transformation that's taking place within yourself. And I
love that that you talked about that.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Yeah, yeah, it's really helping people move from like I'm
a victim of life and life it just happens to me,
and teaching them that you can be the hero, right.
I mean, it's really taking people almost through a hero's journey,
like you can take the wheel and steer your life.
And when you do, it's hard and there's going to
(36:20):
be some bumps along the road. But it is absolutely
exhilarating when you realize you have that power you have
you are so much more powerful than you you even
can imagine. And when you just start kind of unlocking
a little bit of bravery, Like it's kind of like
this fly. Well, you learn about this brave mindset and
then you start learning about how to take brave action,
(36:41):
and then we'll get to brave relationships. And when you do,
it really becomes this upward spiral and it's it's exhilarating
and people don't have to be stuck in this rut.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Oh yeah, and let's talk about the let's talk about
the third pillar, the brave relationships.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Yeah, so brave relationships is about trying to curate the
right brave tribe. I call it the brave tribe that
will support your journey. So I say curate very very intentionally, like,
(37:20):
if you want to accomplish this goal or grow in
this way, who are the people that you want to
surround yourself with that are going to support your journey,
that can help you when you slip a step, that
are going to that are going to be there to
support you to make sure that you get up that
ladder right. And the reason why it's so important to
(37:41):
curate those people is sometimes they're not the people that
we're around right now. So let's say you want to
and we can use a simple example, right, you know,
Let's say I want to I want to climb a mountain.
What's the mountain that I want to climb? I might
have people around me that would that I hang out
with regularly, and they're like, why on earth would you
want to climb That is the stupidest thing ever, that
(38:02):
sounds dangerous. Shouldn't do that. So sometimes the people that
you're around, what they're going to tell you is to
probably stay small, and it's because they care about you
and they don't want you to take risks. So curating
a brave tribe would be finding who are other people
that have climbed this mountain and let me go and
(38:22):
meet them and let me ask them for advice. So
being brave is and I'm being vulnerable and saying, hey,
I don't know how to do this, even at work, right, Hey,
I've never led a project like this before. You led
a couple projects very similar to this sometime, can you
share some of your wisdom advice? Can you show me
how to do it right. So, so surrounding yourself with
the people that have the wisdom or the knowledge that
(38:45):
can support you on that journey. And if you're going
up that ladder, there's times that you're going to slip,
that you're going to be uncomfortable, you may be ready
to quit. You need to have the people that you
can call that are going to help you keep going,
that are going to call forth your best right. So
the reason why I use the word brave around that is,
first of all, you got to get outside of your
(39:06):
little bubble and maybe go and seek out other people
and approach them and ask them for their help. That
takes bravery, right. And then whenever you when you do
stumble and fall, many people think, oh, to be brave,
you just figure it out on your own, Like, you know,
I don't need any help, I'm fine, right, Actually, the
(39:29):
braver thing to do is to admit you don't know,
admit mistakes, and ask for help. So that that takes vulnerability,
the ultimate bravery. So within brave relationships, it's curating the
brave tribe, going outside and developing new relationships with people
that will support the journey. In addition to, like you know,
(39:50):
the relationships that you have. And then it's asking for
help and support, also asking for suggestions for improvement. So
even if things are going well, like who's the person
you could trust, I could say doctor Doug, Like you
are an expert in this and things are going pretty well,
but do you have any suggestions and things I can
be doing differently or better so I can get to
the top of the ladder, So seeking feedback. And then
(40:13):
the last element of brave relationships is you've got to
be looking for people to help you, but also who
can you extend a hand down and help up? Because
you know, when you actually help others, not only are
you helping them, but you actually get a bigger dopamine
hit and you get more pleasure more, you get a
(40:33):
bigger boost to your well being when you help others
than even getting help. So I make sure that I
teach that because we always have to pay it forward.
And many times when I have a huge audience, let's
when I'm speaking in fronting in front of audiences you
know across the country, even across the globe, one common
thing I'll ask is I'll say, how many of you like?
(40:55):
Admitting you might be stuck in asking for help. Raise
your hand, hi, if you like doing that. Now very
few hands go up because people don't feel comfortable doing that.
And then I ask the next question, how many of
you help or enjoy helping others that may be a
little bit stuck to help them achieve their goals? How
many do you like mentoring others? Everyone loves helping others,
(41:18):
And I say, why is that? And so do you?
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Guys?
Speaker 4 (41:21):
See the difference here? So you're hesitating to ask for
help because you don't think they want to help you
and it's going to make you But you like helping others.
So sometimes that's a good reminder to make people feel
more comfortable.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Actually well, in vulnerability, it's interesting, and I think fear
of play such a role in that is that you know,
we're afraid to be vulnerable, but as you say, it's
only when we're vulnerable that we're able to really grow
and get that help. And the other thing is, you know,
it's so interesting to look at who you have surrounded
(41:52):
yourself with and really look at their lives and what
they're accomplishing and realizing that, hey, you know what if
that's not where I want to be. As you say,
I need to curate a new group of friends, a
new group of associates, a new group of relationships.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Yeah you you you are who you hang out with
or you know, really thinking, who do you surround yourself with,
Like I'm thinking of my stoic you know, philosophers that
have influenced me in this and by the way, anything
I'm teaching, or even anything that we have studied in
more recent you know science, it all it's all ancient.
(42:28):
It's all ancient wisdom. We're not doing anything new, We're
just we're just talking about it in a different way.
And you know, ancient wisdom is now proven with modern science.
But it's all the same stuff. But yeah, you know,
like so William James, you know, the really the gentleman
that really started psychology. You know, he says, like, you
are what you attend to, right, So you are what
(42:50):
you attend to, what you think about what you do,
so like make sure you think about that or you know, epictitis,
my favorite stoic you know, says, you know, surround yourself
with people that will call forth your best, that will
challenge you to be your very best.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
That's pretty powerful, all right, Yeah, it is, so any
stories any quick stories about how you've really helped someone
embrace us bravery in their lives and transform them.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
Yeah. I can think of just someone that is a
colleague in positive psychology and they studied positive psychology because
they really wanted to understand it and had dreams of
being able to apply it to help others lives, but
they were in a job and in the job was security, right,
(43:45):
And you know, by taking them through this, and even
though they're a fellow person that studied positive psychology to
really help them go through the steps, it gave them
the confidence to start stepping toward what they really want
to do. And I find that a lot in careers,
Like I'm in a job and I really don't like it,
but I just get paid and I'm just kind of
(44:06):
in this rut, you know. So in the case that
I'm talking about, you know, this person started taking steps
and then ended up making a transition, and now this
person is doing the work that they feel called to do,
and they're just like, if I wouldn't have taken this risk,
if I wouldn't have taken this risk and moved in
that direction, I just I don't know where I would be.
(44:29):
So that's kind of the one thing I want to
make sure that your your audience, you know, keeps in
mind is what is it that you really want? What's
the impact that you want to make in the world,
you know, and what are you doing now? And is
there a gap between where you are now and what
you really want to do and what is holding you back?
And if fear's one of those things, I just have
(44:51):
good news for anyone. Anyone can be brave. It's not
a trait that you're born with. It's not a trait
that you're born with. Anyone can build the capacity to
be brave, to take those courageous, courageous acts and it
just and it's doing the work, you know, day in
and day out. So that's that's the good news.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
And then there's your message. Ask for it. So as
we close, how how do people find you and how
what is your desire in accomplishing and helping people that
may get in contact with you.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
Well, the easiest way is people can just go to
my website, which is Jill Shulman dot com. So first
name is pretty easy to spell.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
J I l L.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Last name is s C h U L M A
N dot com. And if you go to my website.
You can sign up for my newsletter. You can also
take a Bravery self assessment. It's gonna really measure how
strong is your bravery in this three dimensions and then
it will give you some practical tips and what you
can do with it. So I give that away for
(45:58):
free so that everyone can kind of get that a
idea of where they are and build it. And then
I'm all over social media, so I've got YouTube channel
and Instagram and TikTok and you know Facebook. So I
would just encourage your people to follow me because I'm
going to be always giving you little tips and little
reminders that will will hopefully help propel you forward to
(46:21):
take brave action or to be brave in your life.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Love it and I love it. Hey, thank you so much, Jill.
That's it has been fantastic, And I think the most
fantastic things. The very last thing you said is they're
there to help people. You're there to make a difference
with people. And I'm not hearing you talk about it.
They can sign up for this procedure or that and
so forth. You're just there to help.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
And that is that really is my mission is to
is I want people to realize that they have the
ability to be brave. They have an ability to take
control of their life, and it's scary, but when they
take stuff for that way, it absolutely is a game
changer in terms of their level of success. But what's
(47:07):
most important is their happiness and well being. At the
end of life, we look back and I want to
help people avoid the pain of regret. I always wanted to,
but I never did, right, So that's my motivation.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Right Well, thanks so much, and folks, thanks for listening.
I guarantee you, I know you enjoyed this one. I
hope you'll join us again soon. This is doctor Doug
saying no mistay
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek
(00:22):
the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any
suggested ideas.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
At the end of the day, it's not about what
you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what
you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,
who you've made better. It's about what you've given back
Thanzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is
to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you
(00:51):
to do the same.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Jill, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Hey, this is real, rare, great topic. It's for me.
It just really struck me hard when I saw that
this is what you talked about, because I've been considering
this particular topic and relationship to helping people to understand
how to really become their better selves. And we'll get
into that. But what I'd love for you to do
(01:18):
is to kind of share with the audience your journey.
Who are you, what is your past, and how did
you come to this point in time where you're talking
about bravery. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Sure, So I started my life journey in the Midwest
in Minnesota, and then my first career was blowing things
up in the Marine Corps. I was a United States Marine.
I was a combat Engineer officer, and then I moved
from being someone who was responsible for marines that would
(01:51):
blow things up to then I started selling drugs, the
legal kind right pharmaceutical industry. I went into Corporate America.
Fell in love with science and the industry of helping people,
so I went into that industry. So I worked in
Corporate America for thirteen years, and then I realized how
(02:14):
much I valued so much of the personal development and
the leadership development. I realized that just because I was
a United States Marine Corps officer doesn't mean I was
a great leader yet, and I learned so much about
how to look at myself and become a better person,
how to be a better leader. And so I ended
(02:36):
up moving into that space doing leadership development inside of
a Fortune one hundred company and then that was my
jumping off point and I started my own company. It
had such an impact on me as a leader as
a person. I really loved just helping others become their
best self. So I've had my company for now ten years,
(02:57):
and a few years ago, just because I love learning
and growing, I decided to go back to school and
study and I decided to study the science of happiness
and well being or positive psychology, which I feel like
a lot of people are talking about the science of happiness,
And what I ended up researching and really honing in
(03:19):
on as I did my research for my capstone project
was really what we're talking about today, which is how
do people how do you help people really become their
best selves, accomplish the meaningful things they want in life,
and what really holds them back? And that led me
to realizing that sometimes fear like people really want to
(03:40):
do things, they want to accomplish things, but they don't
do it, and what's the reason they let fear hold
them back? So I was become obsessed and said, how
do I help people overcome that fear? Because if you
don't overcome that fear and you stay, you stay in
this comfort zone. Right, then you live a life of regret,
(04:02):
and then you don't see how great like life can be.
So that's what landed me where I am today now,
I write, I speak, I research the science of bravery.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Oh I love that, and you know it's so true.
I'm glad you brought up fear because I was hoping
you would talk about that, because what I have found
is that fear, as you say, it stops so many
people in so many ways. You know, I've interviewed a
lot of people who talk about how they're continually getting
into these bad relationships and they don't get out of them,
(04:38):
and they keep getting attracted to the same time and
so forth. And as I've looked at that, and as
we've talked about that, I think one of the key
elements is the fear of change, the fear of something,
the fear of the unknown versus being able to accept
I mean, comfortable with the known, creates such a such
(04:58):
a dichotomy because then they're not able to get out,
as you say, and I actually do what they want
to do. And I'm loving the pictures. It's just behind
you is that Buddha.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
There is Buddha. And then if you look around my
office I have everything's very intentional. There let me see
way down, I'm trying to get my fingers right here.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
But right up.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
There that is Epictetus, right stoke philosopher. That's Marcus Aurelius
right there. So yeah, I have a lot of a
lot of different inspiring figures that really influence my work
and create the environment to call forth my best work.
So yeah, and then.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Isn't it interesting those philosophies? And I found as I've
studied many of them that I really look at what
are the similarities, and there's so many similarities between that
and the whole goal is to help people not to suffer.
And that's one of Buddha's mad because this is not
to suffer. And yet here you have and here we're
(05:57):
talking about how people areeing that suffering in their lives
because of fear, because of the inability to move forward.
So let's talk about that a bit. When you talk
about the science of bravery, what would you say that.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Is, well, it's looking at what are the things that
we know with the scientific evidence to back it up
on how we can build bravery so that people can
step forward in the presence of fear, because look at
what is bravery? I get that question. Then what is
(06:35):
bravery and what is it not? So bravery is defined
as not eliminating fear. It's not becoming fearless, it's not
it's not waiting until you're perfectly ready in confidence. So
bravery is taking steps forward in the presence of fear.
So that's the first thing that people need to understand.
(06:57):
I think that's why people don't take steps forward, keep
waiting until they're not scared anymore. Well, it's not gonna
happen if you're gonna wait until you're ready, if you're
gonna wait until there's no fear, then you're probably never
gonna take a step forward, and that's why they get stuck. Right. So,
so that's what bravery is. And then you add the
science of bravery. You know, let's look at the scientific
(07:18):
rigor behind. What are things that people can do to
build bravery? And what I'm excited to share with the
world is there's things that anyone can do to build
their bravery. And I use an analogy of it's like
a muscle. You know, if you want to build a
bicep and you have you don't have very strong muscles.
(07:39):
You're gonna go to the gym and you're going to
keep working out that muscle until it gets stronger. Well,
what we know about bravery, there's things that you can do,
think of exercises for your bravery muscle, for your brain
that can help you build that capacity for bravery so
you can take those courageous, courageous actions. So so I
call it the science of bravery because I think there's
(08:00):
a lot of people that are just kind of motivational
and be like, just go out there and be brave
and rah rah, right, you know, which I appreciate their
passion and they're trying to help people. But I feel
like I have a responsibility because like I'm a nerd,
Like I'm not going to just tell you what I
think you should do to be brave. I got to
tell you the things that I know with scientific certainty
(08:21):
that if you do these things, it will lead to
you being braver and then stepping forward toward what you
want and that's going to lead to your greatest life.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
So yeah, and you know, the question that I have
had oftentimes is, in fact, I was talking to someone
that I interviewed just last week, and I asked, you know,
she's doing a lot of astrology and that kind of stuff,
and I said, so are you doing life coaching? And
her comment was I was, but I quit because people
(08:55):
never were able to get aware of what the issues were.
And so as you talk about bravery, and you're talking
about you know, as you were in the Marines and
you were with you know, obviously observing fighting going on
and that type of thing, and also now in the
corporate world where what you're doing, how many times do
(09:15):
you find that they're not even aware of the issues
that they need to be brave about.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Yeah, I mean first is awareness. Yeah, I think that
I think what people are unaware of. I think people
mistakenly think that the path to happiness and well being
is staying comfortable. As you use the word suffering earlier. Right,
(09:43):
I don't want to suffer, so I should just stay
comfortable and I shouldn't take any risks because isn't that
what will bring me happiness? But I need to tell
everyone the truth, right, and the truth is choosing the
easy path. Staying comfortable all the time is the to suffering. Right,
So that awareness comes about when you when you help
(10:06):
people understand that when you step into challenges, when you
step toward things that you're scared of, those are the
things that are going to bring you the greatest levels
of happiness and well being and fulfillment. But it seems
kind of counterintuitive, and and Doug, especially right now, I
think that our world has gotten a little too soft.
(10:29):
We're getting a little too soft trying to take away
all like, let's take away stress, let's take away discomfort,
if there's any adversity, let's take it away. It's just
not it's not realistic. I mean, I think the younger generation.
I can say this because I've got two teenage daughters.
I think there's just a culture of just let me
have more me days and and and you know, I
(10:53):
just I want I want my me day. I want
things to be easy. If you have a me day,
a self careday six out of seven days, you're just
being lazy and you just don't want to get uncomfortable.
If you have a self care of me day once
a week, then it's a good rest to be able
to get back to doing the hard thing. So I
(11:15):
think in general, the pendulum is swung too far. And yes,
you know, I believe that sometimes people can encounter too
much stress and diversity, and they do need to get
a little bit of a rest. But just in general,
our world is getting too soft, and I guess I'm
on a mission to help people understand that they are
stronger than they think, and if they try to step
(11:36):
into things that are hard and uncomfortable, that will actually
lead to a more comfortable, better life.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, and you know, you talked about the culture of softness,
and I totally agree with you on that, but also
what I observe is a culture of anger. And you know,
it's it's fascinating. I've got a good friend that all
of a sudden, I'm starting to see a bunch of
posts that are just there's a sense of anger in
each of those posts, and particularly with all the changes
(12:06):
that have taken place politically and so forth, all of
a sudden, here's all these posts going on about anger, anger, anger.
And it was interesting because I looked at that and
I thought, you know, what, we tend to allow ourselves
to be angry. And my experience is is if you
look at that, that anger, if you really try to
analyze that, that goes back deeper than just what's happening today.
(12:30):
It goes back into that childhood, It goes back into
whatever experiences so that when a trigger occurs, that anger arises.
And I think so many people are not willing to
really look at that. So how do you help people
as you're working with people, particularly the leadership that you
do with the leadership training, how do you help a
leader that's struggling to really be willing? Is the bravery
(12:57):
to be looking at introspectively what's really going on in
my life, what's causing this type of behavior and this
type of emotion which then reflects in my behavior.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Well, I think when people look in the mirror and
have to be honest and a little bit vulnerable, that's
the ultimate form of bravery. Right. It's very easy to
point the fingers of blame on why things are not
going well, but we've got to take some ownership there.
You to talk about people being angry, like, you know,
(13:32):
I spend a lot of time teaching leaders about emotional intelligence, right,
just teaching them that I understand that things happen and
you have these emotional responses, but these things are going
to continue happening. The world is is there's always going
to be stressed, There's going to be adversity things that
are happening, but you have the choice on how to
(13:55):
how you let that impact you. Right, So, emotional intelligence,
things happen, You've got the triggers, but how you respond
to those triggers ultimately impacts your life the life of
the people that you lead. So are you just going
to become a victim and allow events happening in the
world just dictate your mood and control you or are
(14:18):
you going to decide that You're going to decide how
to respond in the best way to best serve you,
the team that you lead, and your family. So, like
I say, look in the mirror, right, what is the
impact of you getting angry and just and then letting
that angry eat you up? And is that really what
you want? So I think a lot of the work
(14:38):
that I do is I want people to really look
in the mirror and go, what is it that you
really want in life? What is the impact that you
want to have in life? And what's holding you back
from being able to accomplish it? And usually fear is
that root cause?
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Well, and you know you're working with the corporate America.
But what I have found and I say, but and
what I have about is that each one of us
in our lives needs to be that individual leader. And
so what you talk about, in my opinion, is so
important just for individuals to understand that, you know, what,
(15:22):
their lives are dictated by their own personal leadership, and
so everything that you're talking about is it is so
true and applies to that. Now, I know you talk
about three pillars of bravery, and I'd love for you
to talk about that a little bit more and we'll
get into that discussion.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Yeah. Well, as I just want to add onto what
you're saying, which is a great link into the three pillars,
which sometimes the hardest person to lead is to lead yourself.
So the three pillars that I talk about I commonly
reference as self leadership. Right, so we've got to be
great self leaders right first before we can lead others.
So you know this, these three pillars that would be
(16:00):
going over with you, this is really for an individual
to be able to apply the way I'm gonna explain it.
But then the job of the leaders is how do
you develop your team employees that are self leaders. If
you can have a team of self leaders that have
these three pillars, they're doing it consistently, then you're going
to be the best leader ever. But let's start like
thinking of the individual. So in order for someone to
(16:22):
build this capacity for bravery, there's really three different dimensions
of things that you know, exercises that we can do
to build the skill, and they're all interconnected. So if
you start moving on one, it ends up impacting another dimension.
So they're all like interconnected. So there's brave mindset, there's
brave actions, and there's brave relationships. And when you leverage
(16:46):
all three together, it absolutely creates this upward spiral and
helps you achieve those things that you've always wanted that
you're fearful of. So brave mindset is really believing that
you can achieve hard things. It's believing that with hard
work and effort you'll be able to develop that new skill,
(17:07):
that you'll be able to accomplish that goal. So a
lot of the research that's under my brave mindset comes
from Carol Dweck, who's known for her growth mindset using
the power of yet. Like if I say I have
this goal that I want to run a five k race,
and I say to myself, right, I'm not a runner.
(17:28):
What am I kidding me, I could never do that.
I'm not a runner. You just think of like add
that power of yet, I'm not a runner yet, or
I could not run a five k yet. So if
you use that word yet, what it does it unlocks
our perception of thinking, like our skills and abilities are
(17:48):
not fixed. With hard work and effort, I can get there.
So brave mindset is and there's four different things that
I teach there and I don't need to go into
all of them, but it's all these different really cognitive
skills of believing that it's possible. Imagine if someone doesn't
believe it's ever possible to do something really hard, Well,
if you don't believe it's possible, then you're not going
(18:10):
to take action. So we got to start working on
the mindset first.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
And actually I want you to talk about those four elements.
You don't have to go into it in depth, but
I'll just kind of list them. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Yeah. So one is what I talked about in terms
of growth mindset, so believing that it's possible using the
power of yet. The second thing is that stress is
enhancing mindset coming from Aliah Crumb Kelly McGonagall, where they
have done a lot of research on your mindset on
stress or challenges is predictive of your response to stress.
(18:45):
So it's really changing people's mindset instead of thinking like, oh,
stress and adversity or challenges are horrible, it's shifting it
to challenges our opportunities for me to grow skills and
get stronger. When I experience stress, this is my body
responding in a way to help me perform at my best. Right,
(19:08):
I can feel my heart pumping, I can feel breathing.
This is my body preparing me to do my best,
so that stress is enhancing mindset. Third is really all
around positive emotions Barbara Frederickson's work. Also Marty Seligman, father
of positive psychology, on his Learned Optimism, it's teaching people
that you do not have to be victim victims of
(19:32):
your emotions back to emotional intelligence. Instead, we can acknowledge
the emotions that we feel right, but then we can
actually generate the emotions that are gonna best serve us,
the teams that we lead, or the people in our lives.
So it's all the research there on generating positive emotions.
(19:52):
And then finally the fourth thing and brave mindset is
for us to really take control of our self talk.
You know, many of us have this little internal voice.
Actually we all do. We all have this internal chatter
of things that we tell ourselves. And many times that
internal chatter is this this voice that says, you can't
(20:13):
do it, you suck, you're a loser, You're never going
to be able to do this. So sometimes we have
this little voice in our head that is saying always negative,
like pessimistic things. And this goes back to teaching people
that you have the power to be able to refute
those things and change that constant dialogue in your head
(20:33):
because those words you keep hearing do have an impact
on your performance. So there's ways that we can try
to change that internal dialogue to better service. So those
are the four practical strategies that I teach and break.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Will and I love that last one because you know,
we talk so much about mindset, and one thing we
don't talk about as much some do is the fact
that here's these neural pathways that have been developed. It's habitual.
So as you talk about I'm not good enough, all
of these imprints that we developed as young children or whenever,
(21:08):
it's habitual because it's been impregnated into our mind along
those neuropathways, and so the ability as you were talking about,
to be able to change those and science tells us
now that you can literally take a neural pathway, move
it to the side, and create a new one which
(21:29):
is much more positive.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Yeah, and this goes back to my analogy of building
a muscle, Like the first time you go into the
gym and try to lift some really heavy dumbbells, like,
it's going to be hard and you're going to be sore.
So as you start working on building your bravery and
start doing some of these exercises or in the academic word,
they call them interventions, but it's just exer kind of
(21:52):
brain exercises. In practice, it's going to be hard in
the beginning because you don't really have that part of
your brain isn't as strong, and you don't have as
many neuropathways. But you do the work and then just
like your muscle goes, oh god, that was a hard workout.
I better make that muscle stronger, our brain does the
same thing. So our neuroplasticity, like it'll start building and
then it gets This is the thing, is it gets
(22:13):
easier over time. Right, we get cortical thickening. So like
our brains are like in a way. I mean, they're
not muscles, but I love the analogy because you know,
parts of our brain can literally get thicker when we
work them out. And then, as you talked about neuropathways,
we're going to start creating many more new neural pathways
to light up that part of our brain. So we've
(22:34):
got more super highways going to that part of our
brain and that part of our brain, and so it does.
It actually gets easier over time. And that's when I
say you're developing this capacity for bravery. It's hard in
the beginning, but once you start getting some momentum, it
gets easier over time.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
So are you using affirmations to help people use affirmations
to use meditation? I know one thing that I do
is as I'm meditating, I like the concept of very
specific meditative quote affirmations that I will say out loud
as I'm doing my walking meditation to literally, you know,
(23:10):
be able to start to change those areas that I
find I struggle with. And if I'm doing that constantly, constantly,
that starts to change that neural pathway. What's your approach
on that how to help people to kind of do.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
That, you know, I think there's a lot of different
ways we can try to help people change that internal dialogue.
One of the ones that I learned when when I
was when I was at U Penn earning my master's
in positive psychology, I was sitting in a class and
one of my professors was doctor Karen Revick, and she
(23:45):
told me a way to change our internal dialogue. And
for me, it absolutely worked, and I found it's been
really really practical for my audiences especially, I've got to
I got to admit something to sometimes if things feel
a little too soft and a little too woo woo,
(24:06):
I kind of like roll my eyes or in my
audience when I go to Corporate America and I've got
all of these business people, like sometimes what I teach them,
I've got to make sure just it makes sense to
them where they're going to do it. Where if I
start talking about we're going to start meditating, and we're
going to start with affirmations, like I might lose them
(24:28):
right there right exactly now. So So I when I
was doing my research too, I'm like, what are the
what are some of these things I can teach people
to do that that almost everyone it would be willing
to do. And I have this test, like if my
husband would do it, then anyone will do it because
he's the one that will roll his eyes. So it's like,
do will it pass like my husband's test. So what
(24:51):
she recommended is she says, you know when you're when
you're listening to that in your dialogue, she goes, I
just want you to listen to it, and when you realize, like,
is that really help helping me? And if the voice
in your eye is not helping you, you got to
recognize it and say, huh, like let's change this. Let's
change it. So first of all is awareness, awareness of
like listen to that internal voice and if it's not
(25:12):
helping you, let's decide to do something about it. So
I love that in terms of awareness, and then her
strategy that she taught in classes, she goes, I want
you to imagine that that exact same thing that you're
telling yourself in your head, you just heard someone you
care about say out loud about themselves. Maybe it's your child,
maybe it's your best friend, it's someone that you care
(25:32):
about deeply. You've just heard him say those horrible things
that you said in your own like I can't do it,
I'm not good en not whatever those things are. And
then she says, what would you say to that loved one?
What's the truthful thing that you would say to that
you know? And she calls it, what is the truth
that you want to try to tell them? And if
it was one of my teenage daughters, I would say,
(25:53):
that is absolutely not true. You do have the ability.
It's going to take some time and effort, but you
are you are great, you are capable. You can do it.
So those affirmations I sneak them in there. I sneak
them in there, but I do it with Karen Riiviick's
you know, her strategy here is if you just think
about how do you overcome it? Recognize when you're saying
(26:13):
something to yourself that isn't helping you, and then imagine
what you would say to somebody else that you care about,
how would you help them change their thinking? And you
apply that to yourself. Be that person that helps with
your own internal dialogue. So when you kind of do this,
when you detach yourself from the thoughts and say, what
would an outside person that cares about me, say to me.
(26:34):
It helps people come up with that really easily and
they think it's it makes sense and it's not too
wu wu where most people actually do that. So that's
one of the primary strategies I uset. I just sneak
it in.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
There well, and it reminds me. As I went back
to business school and got really into human behavior, one
of the things that they talked about is step outside
of yourself. And you know, so when you're talking about awordeness,
step outside of yourself and observe what's going on. But
then I love what you say there also step outside
of yourself and start to talk to yourself. And I
(27:08):
love that approach. I think that's brilliant.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Yeah, and it's just simple. It's just it's a simple
way of doing it.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, it really is. So there's the brave mindset. Now
let's talk about the brave action all right.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Well, the reason why it's so important to go to
these other two dimensions of bravery is there I think
a lot of people out there that there their dreamers.
They set goals, they believe they can do anything, but
then they don't take a step forward. So so brave
action is you know, the brave mindset opens up the
(27:43):
door for possibility, but brave action is stepping through that door.
So brave action are what are some of the evidence
based practices that help people take that step through the door.
So so one of them that I teach my clients
so we can go back to my like my strategies.
One is set a tangible goal. So once you set
that tangible goal of what is it that you want
(28:05):
to accomplish, you've got to make sure that it's both meaningful, right,
so it matters, it really matters to you intrinsically. It's
got to be something that's important to you, and it
also has to be challenging. It's got to get you
out of your comfort zone. And then it's also got
to be specific. Due to Lock and Latham's research on
you know, goal setting theory, So if you believe that
you can do hard things and you kind of have
(28:25):
a wish, then we got to get to the work
of saying, let's set that tangible goal and let's make
sure that's written down right. And then the next step
after you develop that goal is I use the analogy
of a ladder, and I think it's been used. I don't.
I don't know who to give credit to for the
ladder analogy. I certainly didn't come up with it. But
if if you think of your goal as the top
(28:47):
rung to this ladder, right, and then of course your
ladder is leaning against the thing that's very meaningful to you.
So think of that analogy. Now you need to come
up with what are the what are the rungs to
the ladder that will lead you to the top. So
breaking down how to accomplish the goal in those achievable
steps makes you feel more comfortable to take that step.
(29:10):
So it's developing those implementation intentions in the literature, but
you still can't stop there. So one of the keys
to being able to achieve your goal, and this is
coming from someone who's an expert in positive psychology, is
thinking about what will get in your way and what
will go wrong. This is doctor Gabrielle Uttengen's research where
(29:33):
she talks about if you really want to achieve something
that's important to you, you need to anticipate the adversity
the challenges, both externally and many times internally, and then
develop contingency plans on what you're going to do if
that happens. Imagine I set a goal I want to
go to the gym each day. That's those are my
(29:54):
little steps. It's really thinking about what might get in
my way of getting to the gym. Ternal challenges would
be like there's a blizzard, there's no way I can
get to the gym, or maybe my car battery doesn't work.
But most of the times it's not those external things,
you know. It usually is it's us and you know.
And so she really has you go through and identify
(30:17):
the things that may get in your way from taking action,
and then she has you do contingency planning. So I
love her work, which is absolutely brilliant. So you actually
want to think about what may get in your way
and develop a ingency plan so that way, when it happens,
you just go right into action. You've got your ntingency plan.
Or when something goes wrong, instead of like the sky
(30:39):
is falling, like you know what, this isn't working and
I'm just going to quit, you're ready, you psychologically like
ready when there's a challenge, because if you're setting a
challenging goal, there are going to be bumps in the road.
So when a bump in the road, happens. You're not
going to just go in the corner and cry and
say it didn't work. You're going to be able to
overcome it.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Well, I love that, And you know, when when I
was working with small businesses, I never got into the
corporate area. But I love your ladder analogy and because
what I would do and using that analogy, I'd say, Okay,
what's your goal? What's your dream? Now, here's the top wrong,
this is what you're achieving. Let's go to the wrong
right before that? What would have to happen here for
(31:20):
you to achieve that? And then okay, if you have
done that, what do you need to do here on
this rung in order to achieve that? And then you
start working backwards and all of a sudden, that's where
the awareness of oh my goodness, I've got to start.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Right here, we got to start right here. And then
but they at least see like they see the steps
and that first step is something they think they can do.
And then the last part of brave action gets to
ruthless planning, prioritization, and focus. We are naturally wired many
(31:55):
times to procrastinate. Are you procrastinator? I'm a procrastinator? If
I don't. So if we've got a big project or
a goal and we know that we've got to get
things done, we wake up in the morning and usually
the first thing that we do is not the hard thing.
We will do the easy thing, the easy thing, and
then we wait until the end of the day do
the hard thing, and many times at the end of
the day we just push it to tomorrow. So this
(32:18):
is developing the discipline to decide what do I need
to do each day or at a minimum each week.
You can look at your Sometimes if you have a
big goal, maybe you'll work on a big goal like
two days a week. But you've got to do the
ruthless planning, prioritization, and you have to attack those hard
tasks first thing in the morning. So you got to
(32:40):
run at the really hard things. And when you do
that first thing in the morning, you get a dopamine hit,
you feel so accomplished, and you become more productive throughout
the day. So instead of putting off the hard thing,
it's teaching people that you wake up first thing in
the morning and you go right after the hardest thing,
the thing that you maybe even be dreading, the thing
(33:02):
that you're dreading, doing or the most uncomfortable. If you
start with that, it's amazing how you can start training
your brain to again attack the hard things, get him
going first thing in the morning, and then you're so
much more productive and you start getting this momentum. You've
ever heard of Brian Tracy in the business world, remember.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
That name, Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Okay, So he wrote the book called Eat that Frog right,
and his whole book was he said, Mark Twain at
this this, this this phrase, like, if you eat a
frog first in the morning, there's nothing harder that you're
going to do, and your day is going to go great.
So he's the one who I think sold, you know,
thirty eight million copies of that book. But the whole
concept was ruthless planning, prioritization, and focus. If you really
(33:45):
care about the goal, you need to get after it
first thing each day. And it's really hard in the beginning,
but you develop that habit of doing that, and then
you crave that dopamine hit. You want to get that
hardest thing done well.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
And you know you talked about originally, you know, the
call sure easy. How many times do you see people
trying to jump those rungs. In other words, go for
wrung number two to run number five and not worry
about three four.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
And what happens when they do that, well, you know,
I mean sometimes good things can happen and maybe they
have to skip a step, but you know it, you
know so many things, and maybe I'm gonna get a
little too deeper philosophical here is you know, getting up
to the top of the ladder. That is a great goal,
and you do want to achieve the goal, but really
(34:33):
the thing that we're really striving for is not just
achieving the goal at the top and getting to the top.
It's it's who we're becoming on the journey, the transformation
that we're experiencing, right because guess what what happens when
you get to the top ring, You know, when you achieve.
If you're always waiting to be happy when you get
(34:55):
to the goal accomplishment, then it's not going to last
very long, right, Like we'll be happy for a day
or but then it's like what is the next thing?
So like it's getting it's learning how to love the
journey of taking brave action and when you develop these
have it it's something that serves you and it's like
you're growing and you're developing along the way. So it's
(35:15):
really what I love about the science of bravery is
when people start putting this into practice and you ask them,
like what impact has it had, they don't really talk
about achieving the goal. They're like, it's the person that
I've become.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
And that's yeah, yeah, I love that. In fact, I
talk about that a lot because it's like, you know,
you look at your behavior and it's merely a reflection
of who you are. And so when people are trying
to change outcomes in their lives, it's not a matter
of doing this, doing this, doing this. It's becoming and
(35:49):
as you say, going up the steps of the ladder,
it's a transformation that's taking place within yourself. And I
love that that you talked about that.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Yeah, yeah, it's really helping people move from like I'm
a victim of life and life it just happens to me,
and teaching them that you can be the hero, right.
I mean, it's really taking people almost through a hero's journey,
like you can take the wheel and steer your life.
And when you do, it's hard and there's going to
(36:20):
be some bumps along the road. But it is absolutely
exhilarating when you realize you have that power you have
you are so much more powerful than you you even
can imagine. And when you just start kind of unlocking
a little bit of bravery, Like it's kind of like
this fly. Well, you learn about this brave mindset and
then you start learning about how to take brave action,
(36:41):
and then we'll get to brave relationships. And when you do,
it really becomes this upward spiral and it's it's exhilarating
and people don't have to be stuck in this rut.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Oh yeah, and let's talk about the let's talk about
the third pillar, the brave relationships.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Yeah, so brave relationships is about trying to curate the
right brave tribe. I call it the brave tribe that
will support your journey. So I say curate very very intentionally, like,
(37:20):
if you want to accomplish this goal or grow in
this way, who are the people that you want to
surround yourself with that are going to support your journey,
that can help you when you slip a step, that
are going to that are going to be there to
support you to make sure that you get up that
ladder right. And the reason why it's so important to
(37:41):
curate those people is sometimes they're not the people that
we're around right now. So let's say you want to
and we can use a simple example, right, you know,
Let's say I want to I want to climb a mountain.
What's the mountain that I want to climb? I might
have people around me that would that I hang out
with regularly, and they're like, why on earth would you
want to climb That is the stupidest thing ever, that
(38:02):
sounds dangerous. Shouldn't do that. So sometimes the people that
you're around, what they're going to tell you is to
probably stay small, and it's because they care about you
and they don't want you to take risks. So curating
a brave tribe would be finding who are other people
that have climbed this mountain and let me go and
(38:22):
meet them and let me ask them for advice. So
being brave is and I'm being vulnerable and saying, hey,
I don't know how to do this, even at work, right, Hey,
I've never led a project like this before. You led
a couple projects very similar to this sometime, can you
share some of your wisdom advice? Can you show me
how to do it right. So, so surrounding yourself with
the people that have the wisdom or the knowledge that
(38:45):
can support you on that journey. And if you're going
up that ladder, there's times that you're going to slip,
that you're going to be uncomfortable, you may be ready
to quit. You need to have the people that you
can call that are going to help you keep going,
that are going to call forth your best right. So
the reason why I use the word brave around that is,
first of all, you got to get outside of your
(39:06):
little bubble and maybe go and seek out other people
and approach them and ask them for their help. That
takes bravery, right. And then whenever you when you do
stumble and fall, many people think, oh, to be brave,
you just figure it out on your own, Like, you know,
I don't need any help, I'm fine, right, Actually, the
(39:29):
braver thing to do is to admit you don't know,
admit mistakes, and ask for help. So that that takes vulnerability,
the ultimate bravery. So within brave relationships, it's curating the
brave tribe, going outside and developing new relationships with people
that will support the journey. In addition to, like you know,
(39:50):
the relationships that you have. And then it's asking for
help and support, also asking for suggestions for improvement. So
even if things are going well, like who's the person
you could trust, I could say doctor Doug, Like you
are an expert in this and things are going pretty well,
but do you have any suggestions and things I can
be doing differently or better so I can get to
the top of the ladder, So seeking feedback. And then
(40:13):
the last element of brave relationships is you've got to
be looking for people to help you, but also who
can you extend a hand down and help up? Because
you know, when you actually help others, not only are
you helping them, but you actually get a bigger dopamine
hit and you get more pleasure more, you get a
(40:33):
bigger boost to your well being when you help others
than even getting help. So I make sure that I
teach that because we always have to pay it forward.
And many times when I have a huge audience, let's
when I'm speaking in fronting in front of audiences you
know across the country, even across the globe, one common
thing I'll ask is I'll say, how many of you like?
(40:55):
Admitting you might be stuck in asking for help. Raise
your hand, hi, if you like doing that. Now very
few hands go up because people don't feel comfortable doing that.
And then I ask the next question, how many of
you help or enjoy helping others that may be a
little bit stuck to help them achieve their goals? How
many do you like mentoring others? Everyone loves helping others,
(41:18):
And I say, why is that? And so do you?
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Guys?
Speaker 4 (41:21):
See the difference here? So you're hesitating to ask for
help because you don't think they want to help you
and it's going to make you But you like helping others.
So sometimes that's a good reminder to make people feel
more comfortable.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Actually well, in vulnerability, it's interesting, and I think fear
of play such a role in that is that you know,
we're afraid to be vulnerable, but as you say, it's
only when we're vulnerable that we're able to really grow
and get that help. And the other thing is, you know,
it's so interesting to look at who you have surrounded
(41:52):
yourself with and really look at their lives and what
they're accomplishing and realizing that, hey, you know what if
that's not where I want to be. As you say,
I need to curate a new group of friends, a
new group of associates, a new group of relationships.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Yeah you you you are who you hang out with
or you know, really thinking, who do you surround yourself with,
Like I'm thinking of my stoic you know, philosophers that
have influenced me in this and by the way, anything
I'm teaching, or even anything that we have studied in
more recent you know science, it all it's all ancient.
(42:28):
It's all ancient wisdom. We're not doing anything new, We're
just we're just talking about it in a different way.
And you know, ancient wisdom is now proven with modern science.
But it's all the same stuff. But yeah, you know,
like so William James, you know, the really the gentleman
that really started psychology. You know, he says, like, you
are what you attend to, right, So you are what
(42:50):
you attend to, what you think about what you do,
so like make sure you think about that or you know, epictitis,
my favorite stoic you know, says, you know, surround yourself
with people that will call forth your best, that will
challenge you to be your very best.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
That's pretty powerful, all right, Yeah, it is, so any
stories any quick stories about how you've really helped someone
embrace us bravery in their lives and transform them.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
Yeah. I can think of just someone that is a
colleague in positive psychology and they studied positive psychology because
they really wanted to understand it and had dreams of
being able to apply it to help others lives, but
they were in a job and in the job was security, right,
(43:45):
And you know, by taking them through this, and even
though they're a fellow person that studied positive psychology to
really help them go through the steps, it gave them
the confidence to start stepping toward what they really want
to do. And I find that a lot in careers,
Like I'm in a job and I really don't like it,
but I just get paid and I'm just kind of
(44:06):
in this rut, you know. So in the case that
I'm talking about, you know, this person started taking steps
and then ended up making a transition, and now this
person is doing the work that they feel called to do,
and they're just like, if I wouldn't have taken this risk,
if I wouldn't have taken this risk and moved in
that direction, I just I don't know where I would be.
(44:29):
So that's kind of the one thing I want to
make sure that your your audience, you know, keeps in
mind is what is it that you really want? What's
the impact that you want to make in the world,
you know, and what are you doing now? And is
there a gap between where you are now and what
you really want to do and what is holding you back?
And if fear's one of those things, I just have
(44:51):
good news for anyone. Anyone can be brave. It's not
a trait that you're born with. It's not a trait
that you're born with. Anyone can build the capacity to
be brave, to take those courageous, courageous acts and it
just and it's doing the work, you know, day in
and day out. So that's that's the good news.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
And then there's your message. Ask for it. So as
we close, how how do people find you and how
what is your desire in accomplishing and helping people that
may get in contact with you.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
Well, the easiest way is people can just go to
my website, which is Jill Shulman dot com. So first
name is pretty easy to spell.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
J I l L.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Last name is s C h U L M A
N dot com. And if you go to my website.
You can sign up for my newsletter. You can also
take a Bravery self assessment. It's gonna really measure how
strong is your bravery in this three dimensions and then
it will give you some practical tips and what you
can do with it. So I give that away for
(45:58):
free so that everyone can kind of get that a
idea of where they are and build it. And then
I'm all over social media, so I've got YouTube channel
and Instagram and TikTok and you know Facebook. So I
would just encourage your people to follow me because I'm
going to be always giving you little tips and little
reminders that will will hopefully help propel you forward to
(46:21):
take brave action or to be brave in your life.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Love it and I love it. Hey, thank you so much, Jill.
That's it has been fantastic, And I think the most
fantastic things. The very last thing you said is they're
there to help people. You're there to make a difference
with people. And I'm not hearing you talk about it.
They can sign up for this procedure or that and
so forth. You're just there to help.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
And that is that really is my mission is to
is I want people to realize that they have the
ability to be brave. They have an ability to take
control of their life, and it's scary, but when they
take stuff for that way, it absolutely is a game
changer in terms of their level of success. But what's
(47:07):
most important is their happiness and well being. At the
end of life, we look back and I want to
help people avoid the pain of regret. I always wanted to,
but I never did, right, So that's my motivation.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Right Well, thanks so much, and folks, thanks for listening.
I guarantee you, I know you enjoyed this one. I
hope you'll join us again soon. This is doctor Doug
saying no mistay
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