August 11, 2025 • 44 mins
Brenda K. Reynolds joins Dr. Doug to share her powerful journey from personal crisis to personal growth, introducing her FROGS framework for navigating change. Discover how to turn “Now what?” into “Why not?” and use life’s challenges as stepping stones to resilience and purpose.
https://www.brendakreynolds.com
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https://www.brendakreynolds.com
Inspire Vision Podcast is broadcast on K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Inspire Vision Podcast TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Inspire Vision Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek
(00:22):
the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any
suggested ideas.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
At the end of the day, it's not about what
you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what
you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,
who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.
Denzel Washington, Welcome to inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is
to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you
(00:51):
to do the same.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Brenda welcome.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Oh I'm excited. You know, it's always so interesting how
people can together. And you know, I was doing an
interview just the other day talking about synchronicity, and I
think it's so amazing that you know that works so well,
and you know, you have such an interesting topic and
I'm looking forward to talking about it. I'd love for
you to share with the audience your story, your journey,
(01:18):
because I know that had a lot to do with
what you're doing now.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
It really does, really does. I mean I for my career.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
For the most of my career, I've been in a
training and development leader or organization development consultant. But you know,
what I was using in my work started to come
in handy in two thousand and eight when my.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Life took a side turn.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
It took it went sideway as I found myself unexpectedly divorcing,
becoming a single mom with two little boys, no guaranteed income,
no healthcare benefits, and every part of my life needed
to change.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
And in that moment, I were thinking, I was.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Really grateful that I had the background and training that
I did, and wishing that I could share more of
those messages with others.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
And so ultimately that's what I did.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
And in the two books that I've written, there really
about helping people through times of change and helping folks
be more resilient.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
And how does that work for you?
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Oh, I'm being tested right now, you know, doctor Doug.
I'm being tested. I think along with the rest of
the world. Right we wake up every morning and say
that wasn't a dream. Things are really changing. I got
to read my own books.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Well, yeah, it's so interesting. You know. We talk about
and as I say, I just got up an interview
talking about synchronicity, and one of the points that I
wanted to make for the folks that were listening is
that synchronicity doesn't always bring about the good things. Sometimes
(02:53):
we experience things that we don't consider good. But over
the years, as we look back, we realized it kind
of put us on a path. For instance, with your divorce,
with what happened in two thousand and eight, you know
that certainly wasn't something you would consider great, but look
where's put you now?
Speaker 4 (03:11):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
I always say I did a ted X talk and
I talk about navigating transition fog, and what I say
in that is, you know, we don't see the gift
of the fog until it's in the rearview mirror, and
then we look back and go, oh, yeah, I traveled
through that and I wouldn't want to do it again.
But I got to some destination that was pretty cool.
But man, that was a foggy, tricky journey.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Well, and you've written two books and I know we're
going to talk about this last book that you've written,
which I appreciate you have sent me, and so I
had a chance to skim through it. But what was
the first book you wrote and what motivated that and
what's it about?
Speaker 5 (03:47):
That first book was really after years after my divorce,
when I thought, gee, I wish leaders had this information
when they're leading themselves and others through times of change,
the information that I had from my master's degree program
in organization development. And then it occurred to me, well,
(04:09):
why don't I make that available to them.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
They don't have to go back and get an advanced degree.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
What if I write a very manageable, easy to read
book that takes some of those content topics and breaks
it down for them. So it's called TBD to be Determined,
Leading with clarity and confidence in uncertain times. And so
I wrote this right before my youngest son was going
off the year before he was going off to college,
because I did want to be that sad, weepy mom
(04:36):
that was sending him out the door. I wanted him
to be excited about his next chapter. And it really
was a time in my life, doctor Doug, where I
said to myself what are the dreams I haven't fulfilled yet?
What if I start to pursue one of those so
that I'm equally excited about the next chapter in my
life as he goes off to launch his And so
(04:57):
that's what I did. I wrote the book in twenty
seventeen and then was invited to do a ted X
talk on one of the topics in the book, which
is navigating transition fog.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
All right, and you know we met via LinkedIn and
that is really a very business side and I know
that most of your background has been working with businesses.
But what I have found is I've done a little
bit of consulting, was that what we talked about in
business applied so well to life. And so that's where
(05:27):
I like our focus of the discussion today is, you know,
as we talk about things, and we can bring up
what you talk you know, what you wrote in that
book as well as the other one. But the key
is is that what we can do in life. And
I kind of like to reverse it because I think
ultimately our success in business in a large degree, not always,
(05:48):
but in a large degree, depends on our success in life. Now,
there are obviously those who have been extremely successful in
business and not very successful in life. But the reality
I think with the majority of the population is if
they can become successful in their life, and that has
a lot of innuendos to it, that they can then
(06:09):
experience a successful and joyful experience in what they're doing
in business. But I think the most important thing is life.
They can enjoy life.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
I think you make a good good point, which is
I think we're conditioned in some weird way and I've
never thought about this until this moment to put it
this way, But we see life as a subset of
work instead of work as a subset of life, and
we forget that the bigger context is life. And when
I am coaching any executive, we probably spend more of
(06:41):
our time talking about their life than we do their
work world. Because they have plenty of people. They can
talk about their work world with plenty of folks who
can give them advice.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
But when it.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
Comes to opening up and being real and vulnerable and
authentic about the impact work has on the rest of
their life or the price they may be paying in
the rest of their life, they really need a trusted
companion to talk about those things with. Because the leadership
space can be pretty lonely and you have to watch
(07:14):
what you say to whomever well.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And you know, it's interesting also, and I've seen this
happen a lot, where you get people that are in
management positions and they are the most uncomfortable people to
work with. And when you look at that and really
analyze that, you can recognize that that has everything to
do with who they are and whatever is managing those
(07:39):
emotions rather than their management style per se.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
To me, being a good leader is mastering your use
of self. I call it use of self. How do
you show up in that space and use yourself? And
to do that, you know you need good self knowledge.
Better self knowledge means better self management means better leadership.
And so it's you know, leadership's and inside job. We
(08:05):
start there. That's my philosophy.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Anyway, and leadership in life I think becomes the whole key.
So let's talk about the second book. And it's really
a work book, which I love how you've done that.
But talk about the second book and what is that
about and and what motivated you to write this one?
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Well, you know, I got even further away from my
life circumstances and I began. I was still working with
a lot of people to your earlier point who were
not just wrestling with leadership, but they wanted to talk
about life, leading their lives.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
And I started to.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Reflect back, well, it's a very interesting talk about synchronous synchronicities.
When I was being divorced, my divorce attorney said to me, Brenda,
whatever you do, do not come in here and start
telling me about some guy you've met, some prince charming
that's going to save the day for you until you
have kissed at least five frogs. Now, doctor Doug, I
(09:03):
couldn't imagine going on one date, let alone five, So
that stuck with me, and as I began dating, I
was counting them.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Off like frogs, like one, two, three, four, five.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
I'm like, oh, maybe I'll write a book on, you know,
navigating divorce and dating. And then at the end of
the fifth frog, I thought, oh, that's gonna be a
really lame book. Forget that, so I just dropped the
whole thing. But those frogs stayed in my brain. And
then fast forward. I was walking by my television one
day and somebody said, frogs is an acronym for fully
(09:33):
reliant on God.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Now in the space that I was in.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
I probably waved my middle finger at the television that day,
thinking I'm not feeling like God is in my life
at this moment, but it still.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Was with me.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
And then I had a dream one night, and I
had a dream about this frog. And the next day
I went shopping with a girlfriend in the store just
chalk full of little knickknacks and chatchkes, and the first
thing my eyes went to was this ceramic frog that
was the exact frog.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
I dreamed about the night before. And then two weeks later, I.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
Was going through my office cleaning it out, and I
had saved an old Christmas card from a client, absolutely
nothing remarkable about it except that on the front of
that card was this frog. And it's like I started
seeing five frogs, you know, and I thought, what is
with the frogs?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
And I looked to them up.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
I started doing some research to find out just how
resilient frogs are and that they are symbols of change
and transformation.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
And as I reflected on my journey.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
I thought, oh, wait a minute, these are kind of
the stages we go through when any disorienting life or
work event hits us. And so each of the frogs
stands for a different stage that we go through on
the road to getting more and more resilient.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Well, I love that. As I looked at that, I've
been really contemplating a lot of things for a while,
and you know, I haven't written a book yet, but
I'm trying to. But what fascinated me is as I
was looking at the frogs and what you wrote for
each one of them, it just parallels so much. And
I think what's interesting is everyone comes from a different perspective,
(11:22):
and yet when you look at the reality of what
the message is is very similar. I find that fascinating.
I mean, being here in Thailand, you know, I've loved
to study Buddhism and then and I happen to be Christian,
so I'll start with that. But then also as I've
interviewed a number of people, they've talked about Vetic yoga,
(11:46):
which is really Hinduism. So I started looking at that,
and what I found is that the message from each
of those which are thousands, at least hundreds of not
thousands of years apart, are very similar.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
It's scient wisdom that comes through all across the world,
you know, and we just have different messengers who package
it differently, and someone who needs to hear it presented
this way, and somebody who needs to hear it presented
in frog form, and you know, somebody who comes from
it academically, and someone who comes from it, you know,
(12:21):
through religious religion. And so I think, yeah, we're all
downloaded with some of these messages were supposed to be
sharing simultaneously.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Well, let's talk about your philosophy, let's talk about let's
talk about what you personally went through or what you've
worked with clients, and you've seen what they've gone through.
But let's talk about frogs.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Oh, frogs.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
I've really never thought so much about frogs until I
started writing this, And really, to be honest with you,
there's an entire book I will write, and I've started
years ago. I started writing a full blown book on
this topic, and it's not quite ready yet. I'm still
not sure exactly where it goes. So in the meantime,
(13:03):
I thought, let me put out a guided journal on
the topic to see if it sticks, to see if
the acronym makes sense to people.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
And that's how the journal really came to be. And
it's been fascinating since I put it out to.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Hear the really unique ways people are using it, in
ways that I could never have even imagined. And so
the frogs is, you know, the F stage is when
something happens whether we whether we choose it, or it's
imposed on us. You know, my life situation was imposed
on me. But again you have to surrender to that.
(13:40):
Here it is, here we go, I'm about to go
on a journey. And in the F stage, it feels
like everything's falling apart. At a minimum, you're in a
fork in the road and you're trying to make a
lot of decisions, and there are a lot of other
F words that show up. We freak out, we may
get frustrated. We're in our raw feelings. It's a highly
(14:02):
emotional state and we want to honor that because the
emotions are real, and if we don't, they get stuffed down.
And even when I relate this model to what happens
in organizational life when leaders navigate change, when they announce
a big change, they often don't really want to hear
everybody's feelings. They just want to pretend they don't exist
(14:25):
and get on with the change. But research shows if
you don't let people find a healthy way to process
those emotions. As human beings, they get stuck deep in,
they get stuffed into the culture, and they will kind
of raise their rear their heads in very strange ways
and inopportune times because there's a distrust that get baked
(14:48):
gets baked into the culture.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Well, I know, it's interesting as to talk about freaking out.
You know. One of the things I've looked at is
I've interviewed different people that have gone through different processes
of transformation. What I find is there's always some situation
that has occurred in their life that causes that freaking out.
And I think that you know, you look at that,
(15:11):
you look what you went through. I've certainly gone through
similar things, and you realize that it's only that situation
that finally causes us to be motivated to start to
do something about our lives. It suddenly gives us realization that,
you know what, this is not the life that I want.
Speaker 5 (15:30):
It isn't It had me do a lot of things,
It had me say, you know, to be honest, I
was living in my dream home, a home I never
could have imagined living in, and in that moment, that
home meant nothing to me, and I said to myself
in this next chapter of life, it's really like I
will never get attached to material items again, and it's
really more about I want to lead a simple life,
(15:53):
a very simple life. And so that put me, you know,
on that trajectory. It put my focus squarely on on
my only prayer and goal was let me raise two
amazing human beings. That matters to me more than what
someone's going to pay me every year to do the
work that I do. It put me in a place
(16:14):
of saying what's really important to me now? And ultimately
it led me down a path where I could say, well,
what are the dreams I haven't fulfilled?
Speaker 4 (16:22):
And I guarantee you I don't think I would have
written a book. I don't think I.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
Would have hit the speaking circuit or done a ten
X talk if it hadn't been for that f moment
in my life.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Well, and that moves you into what you were just
talking about, which is the R which is reflecting and responsible.
And you know, I love that because you know, if
as we freak out, if we can really take the
time and have the ability to start to reflect as
you did, and honestly, you know, step outside of yourself,
look at your life and go, okay, what would I
(16:57):
want you to think about that? That becomes that's the thing.
But I love the word responsibility too, because I think
so many times people find themselves in evictim olty and
they don't even know that they're there, but all of
a sudden, they do not take responsibility for what's going
on in their lives. And obviously there are things such
(17:18):
as you talked about, you know, the divorce. It was
something that just happened and probably not you know whatever.
But things happen in our lives that we can say,
you know what, I'm not responsible for that. But what
we are responsible for is how we respond.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
Absolutely, and you know that responsibility.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
And that reflection goes two directions.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
So we look to the past and say, what was
my part in being here? What did I contribute to
this showing up? Because I think we have to start
with ourselves, and then we say, okay, now what's my part?
What is my You know, I break the word responsibility
out into the two words I always have the ability
to choose my response.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
It's my response.
Speaker 5 (18:03):
Ability, and that's where your power comes from. Remembering that
no matter what happens, you get to choose your response,
and you can I had a mentor who once said
to me, you can choose to change or influence a situation.
So that's option one. Option two is you can accept
(18:25):
it even temporarily, or the third is you have to
get out of it. And if you can just remember
that no matter what happens to you in life, you
always have those three choices. You feel less like a
victim because you get to pick what you're.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Going to do well. And as you've worked with and
again I assume you don't do a lot of personal coaching.
It sounds like you do more corporate and business type
of stuff. But even as you're working with those leaders
that you're working with, you find oftentimes they fall into
that victimhood.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
It's easy to It's either that or you know, no
leader feels like they're really in charge because even if
you're at the tippity top of the organization as a CEO,
you're still responding to the stakeholders, the shareholders, Wall Street,
the board, so no one really sees the things that
are happening is fully theirs, and so in that way,
(19:20):
it can feel like, yeah, they're not taking the full
responsibility or you can blame your employees because they're just
not getting on board with the change, or they're just
being so ungrateful.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
But I have a.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Background in organization dynamics, so I understand all of those invisible.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Forces that are happening in the organization.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
To set it up that way and try to shine
some light on that for people so they can see
from where they sit in the organization, what they're part
in the situation is, and what choices they have for
how they're going to show up. But I do want
to say this too, doctor Doug. It is fascinating to me.
And again this is where I just surrender to the universe.
I've always worked worked with businesses and leaders and corporations,
(20:03):
but I am noticing in the past year more and
more folks are coming to me who want to work with.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Me personally in personal life.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
And I think some of that is because the journal
the journal, it's not real corporate y. I mean, you
can use it that way if you're doing a corporate situation,
but it really just I think it really just speaks
to anybody, and so I'm just paying attention they're coming
and I actually have three different women who are asking
me for personal coaching that I'm working on proposals for
(20:37):
this week.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
That's great. And as you look at that from a
standpoint of this concept of victimhood, how would you help people,
let's get to the personal level rather than the business.
How would you help people to begin to understand that?
And I love how you use the word, you know,
responsibility and responsible. How can you help them to understand
(21:00):
and that whatever is happening, they have that responsibility. They
cannot blame someone else or what they're experiencing in life.
They may say, all right, this event happened, but they
can only blame themselves and take responsibility for their response,
for their emotions, and for their behavior based on their emotions.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, I think the power is in you know.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
I think the muscle we need to build and we're
in that R stages is learning how to reframe things.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
So if we see this as this thing that happened
to me that I didn't deserve.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
And I have a quote in here that I'm going
to probably misquote, but I love it. It's like saying
I'm because you know you're wearing red, but you're saying
because I'm a good person, bad things shouldn't happen to me.
The bull doesn't care. You know, if you're out here
expecting the world to treat you fairly because you're good,
(21:56):
it's like expecting the bull not to charge because you're
a vegetarian. Right, it's going to happen to us. We
cannot get away from things happening to.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Us that don't feel fair. So I think the first
step is accepting that life is not fair.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
No one said it was going to be. No one
said it was going to be. So what do you
do with your unfair situation?
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Is the question?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, And you know, it's interesting the Buddha talks about
that a lot, which I'm fascinated by. That philosophy that
he has is this concept of everyone experiences suffering. His
whole model was to help people to get to the
point where, yeah, life happens, but they don't have to suffer.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
And bring the choices that Buddha says, yes, suffering is
a choice. That's not the choice you want to make.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
That's right. So as you talk about that, the reality
is that we can ultimately get to the point where
life happens, but we don't let it affect us negatively.
We don't allow it to cause us to suffer extremely
but rather just understand what's going on, maybe understand that
(23:07):
it's part of synchronicity that we don't understand yet, but
ultimately as we work through it, and that goes through
your next phase. And so i'll have you talk about
that as far as once we do the reflecting, once
we take that responsibility, then we go into the old
what does that stand for?
Speaker 5 (23:25):
And it's funny because I think you're leading into it
with that comment about Buddhism right. Part of the overcoming
the obstacles, which is what O stands for, is one
of the first things is surrendering to the situation.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Two.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
Buddhism talks about this concept also in permanence, which I love.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
It reminds us that, oh.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
You're having a great day, well just wait, that's going
to change, right, the next day may not be so great.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Oh you're having a bad day, Well don't worry. It's
going to change and you'll have a good day.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
So good and bad is going to we're going to
flip flop between them because we're always in a state
of impermanence. So I think when we're having a tough time,
if we remind ourselves. This isn't going to be here
like this forever. But we also appreciate then the really
good times because we know they're not going to last
(24:16):
forever either. There's going to be a bump ahead somewhere,
and then we get to live in gratitude with what's
right in front of us. And I think the overcoming
obstacles is, you know, some of those obstacles are mindset obstacles.
Some of them are just keeping ourselves from being paralyzed
and making even the smallest inroad, the smallest step towards something.
(24:41):
You know, I remember back in my divorce days, just
getting out of bed felt like a huge win. Just
getting showered, or just getting two kids off to the
school bus. Those are all winds, And to this day,
it just happened two weeks ago. I thought, Man, I
feel really busy right now, But I don't know how
(25:02):
productive I'm being. You know, a lot of the work
I'm doing isn't really even paying paid work, you know
what am I doing? But I know I'm doing important
stuff on some level. So I actually took a piece
of paper and I started writing down, I'm looking over
here because it's here somewhere and I started writing down
the things I had been working on that week, and
many of them were foundational things like updating my website
(25:24):
and updating my bio and making a few phone calls,
and they were really important things, but they didn't feel
like they were instantly creating an outcome. But I had
to in that moment remind myself that this is headway,
This is important stuff.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
I think we lose track of it. We only count
the big things.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Yes, And I love how you talk about mindset and
how you know, we've grown up, particularly in the US
culture of wanting things now, and you know, we we
have lost that to understand the value of patients and
understanding that, you know what, we have to do those
(26:06):
foundational things first before we can expect the results. But
let's talk about mindset a little bit, because I think
that's really important. As you talk about mindset, what are
you really talking about and what is what is? What
are those subconscious things that can affect our mindset? And
how do we get to the point where we are
really in control of our mindset as you know, totally
(26:29):
talks about in control of managing our ego and those
type of things which I think becomes extremely important if
we want to move into the next step of moving forward.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
Yeah, I think it's really taking You know, I have
a mentor who used to call that voice in our
heads his yama yama, and he said, you know, your
yama yama, which is your ego voice, is always there
for most of us. And so it isn't about getting
rid of it, but it is about learning to turn
the volume down on it, because that creates a negative mindset,
(27:02):
and that voice is usually talking to us worse than
we would ever talk to a friend of ours. It
says really terrible things to us, and so we've got
to turn it down because it's going to tell you
this is terrible and this thing that's happening to you
is devastating. Well what if it isn't you know, what
if that thing is here to serve us in some
(27:24):
strange way, but we just can't see what it.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Is just yet.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
And so part of the obstacles we need to overcome
is how we're even looking at the situation.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
And if we reframe.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
What looks like a challenge as something more favorable. Not
to say we get real Pollyanna, but we do say,
what if we get curious, what if this is here
to serve me somehow.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
What if this is here to teach me something?
Speaker 5 (27:52):
What if this is an opportunity disguised as a problem,
And when we can reframe a rainy day as an
opportunity to get some home projects done. Or when I
was going through my divorce and we moved and my
children were in a new neighborhoodhere I didn't really know anyone.
(28:12):
I ended up taking a job back inside Corporate America
for four years just to pay the bills, and I
had this long, hour long commute, and I for the
first three months I cried every day there and.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Back because I didn't want to do this commute.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
And one day a friend said to me on the telephone, Hey, Brenda,
this isn't forever.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
This is just a temporary bridge to what's next.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
And I was like, Oh, something about it that day
was what I needed to hear, And all of a sudden,
I was able to reframe my commute as what a
gift I have been a whole hour two hours a
day where I can stay in touch with family, make
phone calls to friends, listen to a radio program, a
book on tape. And I went so far as to say,
(29:03):
I want to make the most of this commute. I
sold my car and I bought a pre owned sports car,
and I'm like, I'm going to love this commute in
every way. I'm going to take advantage of the time.
I'm going to love my vehicle. I'm going to feel
like I'm so lucky I get to drive this thing
for two hours every day.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
And that was how I chose.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
To say, what are the things I can control to
make this more palatable?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Well, and as you start to work with individuals, I
know you're going to come up with this if you
haven't already, is you watch this behavior and it doesn't
make sense. It just doesn't make sense. It's not even
something they want to do, but it seems like it's
habitual mindset that they continue to do. And how often
(29:49):
have you thought and going into what are those subconscious
imprints that are causing the response? You know, talk about divorce,
we talk about relationships. As I was doing some certifications
in coaching, one of the things that came up and
(30:09):
I always laugh about it because the fellows said, you know,
this is something if you're in a relationship and things
are struggling. He says, never do this, but this is
what you should do. When your partner starts to get upset.
What you need to do is sit back and say, honey,
what emotion just came up that you responded to and
(30:31):
helping them to understand that an event has no emotions
tied to it. We apply an emotion, and oftentimes that
emotion we apply is based on those subconscious beliefs, of
subconscious imprints that oftentimes we had no control over that
caused us to respond in an interesting way. I mean,
(30:52):
we look at what's going on right now in the
United States, the anger that exists, all of that is
on both sides, and it's interesting to me to see
how people react and I think to myself, you know what,
here's the surface reaction going on, but what's internally going
(31:12):
on to cause someone to respond that way? And I
think that that really gets into that whole concept of
reflecting and responsibility that you talk about, is being able
to recognize what's happening there and then you get into
the oh where you're starting to overcome some of those obstacles.
And I really think you know, as we know, ninety
(31:33):
percent of our brain is subconscious.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
Right what drives our behaviors is really ninety percent subconscious,
and so it's about you know, I always know when
I'm coaching someone and I just get this this intuitive
feeling that it's time to ask a deep question like that,
and you know when you've stumbled on some subconscious hardwiring
that's in there. I remember coaching a key was in
(32:00):
a world renowned cardiac surgeon and he was just known to.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
Be a bear to work with.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
I mean, it got to the point where people were quitting.
He couldn't keep nurses, the operating room could not get staffed.
His reputation preceded him. They were having a hard time
recruiting people. And I coached him for a while and
then one day I finally said to him, tell me
about your childhood. And I build enough trust with him
(32:30):
that he would. And he shared with me how as
a young little boy he had to escape a war
torn country for his life, and so for him, his
conditioning is that life is a battleground, life is a
war and he showed up every day like a warrior,
(32:50):
and Wow, we had the most incredible conversation. And sometimes
those are the moments and you just see the emotion
in people after e'bask a cer in question that you
know they're about to have a breakthrough.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
And it had me look at him differently too.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
It had me appreciate why he shows up the way
he does based on his early life conditioning and his
subconscious beliefs.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
So we got to unpack those.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
He's still there, he has managed to you his I
think his head was on the chopping block at the time,
but he is still there. And it's very funny. He
said to me in our very last session, and this
was long before I even thought about writing a book.
He looked at me and said, so, Brenda, do you
think you're writing a book someday?
Speaker 4 (33:33):
And I was like, I don't know where that is
coming from. I said, I don't know why. He goes,
do you think I'll be in it? We need to
get your ego under control.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah, And I love that. And you know what, for
people to understand that, that's what it means to overcome obstacles,
they are their greatest obstacle. They's subconsciousness their greatest obstacle.
And so I love that they freak out, that they
start to reflect then and be responsible for that and
then start to overcome those and that moves us into
(34:04):
the next one, which is the G. And then what
occurs as they're doing that process.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
It's g. I think I'm growing and now. And this
is in the smallest of ways, you know. It was.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
I was talking to my mother yesterday about a friend
of hers who just lost her husband back in November,
and my mom said, oh, Mary's really showing some signs
of growth. She's practicing going out to eat by herself.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
She's never had to do that before. She's always had
her partner. And you know, some people go, what's the
big deal? You know, I to do that all the time.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
But to Mary, it's a very big deal and it
shouldn't be minimized. And I think we minimize our growth
within ourselves sometimes we.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Go, oh, well, that's a new big deal. You know.
I don't know if this happens to other people.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
But the minute I wrote I remember, before I wrote
a book, I was like, if I would meet an author,
I would revere them, Oh my gosh, you wrote a book,
because that is something I've always wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Once I wrote a book, I was like, I wrote
a book. Anyone can write a book. It stops being
such a big deal.
Speaker 5 (35:12):
Anymore, and we start to minimize that thing that was
actually a very big, complicated deal. And so we have
to not minimize our growth in any way, shape or form,
big or small, because even without trying, we're going to grow. Now,
if we are really intentional, we can have very big leaps.
(35:35):
Going back to the frog, right, we can take and
now what and turn.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
It into a why not. We can make that big leap.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
We can find ourselves more resilient, we can find ourselves
better at reframing difficult situations. We can find ourselves taking
risks we never would have taken if this thing hadn't
happened to us. But the reason I have a spot
in the back of the journal to record hops is
because the hops, big progress doesn't happen in one big
(36:06):
quantum leap. You know, even if you think about professional
sports athletes, you know, we see them on the screen
and they're the star quarterback.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
For an NFL team. Guess what, there were so many
things that.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
Had to happen along the way, and every one of
those counted. So if we count our hops and record them,
then we actually notice our progress. And I like the
idea that a hop is only one letter away from
hope because it's in the hops that hope shows up
(36:39):
that we're going somewhere good well.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
And I love that and the fact that you know,
the continual hops and the realization that you know, sometimes
we're going to hop to the side which may not
be where we wanted to be, but you know, we
have to because there's this obstacle in front of us.
They're recognizing on that growing part that it is a process,
is something that we have to have patience for and
(37:02):
trusting that we can actually accomplish. And when we do
that and focus on that and overcome, and sometimes you
will repeat, but that overcome and overcome, and all of
a sudden, we start to really see that growth. I
love that.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
I saw this diagram on social media, so I'm totally
blatantly stealing it, and it showed this diagram of something happening,
and this little word caption comes up that says, oh,
I can't do that, Oh.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
Maybe I can.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
Oh I can't do that, Well maybe I can, and
I did, Oh maybe I can do that, Oh I can,
and I did. I Mean, we start out going I
don't know if I can do that, and then we
get to the point where after time of doing something
and proving ourselves again and again. When that thing shows
up next, we go I got this, I got this.
(37:53):
But it's only because we've had that series of small
successes and we build our confidence.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Yes, and once we've been able to do that over time,
then comes in the S. And what is the S?
Speaker 5 (38:04):
Oh, my divorce attorney would be so proud of the
S stage because the S is not waiting for someone
else to make it better for you. It's not the
prince or the princess who saved the day and brought
you the crown. It's you crowning a more sovereign, expanded,
stronger royal version of yourself.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
It's where you say I did that.
Speaker 5 (38:31):
I don't know how I did that. I wouldn't want
to do it again, but I did it. And the
beauty when we get to that space is it's from
that space that we can share our stories with people
going through similar situations and we serve from that space.
(38:51):
I very much think the way I work with people
today has so much to do with what I went through.
I've even had people will hire me because of some
of my life experiences because they go, you're going to
understand me.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
You're going to get it. You won't judge me.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
You've been through something similar, and so this thing that
felt so awful has actually become, in some cases, the
very thing that creates trust and authenticity between me and
the person I'm working with.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
And ultimately we crown our our more resilient version of.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Ourselves well, and then we pay it forward. And it's
so interesting, isn't it. I mean, is as I have
interviewed so many people, it's fascinating to me how they've
gone through these difficult times such as you did, and
yet ultimately when they come out, then there's that sense
of I want to serve others. I want to be
(39:48):
able to help others and help lift their lives up
and not ultimately be trodden down by the experiences, but
being able to understand that they can transform for those experiences
and become as you say, a stronger and as you
put it, and you didn't say the words, but sovereign self,
someone who literally now is in control of their lives. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:11):
And I mean I've had to talk to my self
talk on occasion too, because I started speaking on the topic,
and there have been times when I've said to myself,
you know who wants to hire me.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
I mean, my story it's pretty vanilla. It's a divorce.
In today's world.
Speaker 5 (40:31):
Sadly people say, yeah, I have no big deal. It's
a divorce. Most of us you know what that's about.
It's not like I've scaled a mountain. I haven't lost
a limb, I haven't survived a shipwreck.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
I'm not a celebrity. Who would want to hear my story?
That's really simple story of resilience.
Speaker 5 (40:53):
And then I really had to have a talk and
to with myself to say, well, Brenda, let's get real.
If you're staring out at an audience of listeners, how
many of them can relate to scaling a mountain, being
a celebrity, losing a limb?
Speaker 4 (41:08):
Very few?
Speaker 5 (41:09):
But I've at at least fifty percent of those folks
have known what it's like to go through a big
life transition.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Or a divorce.
Speaker 5 (41:16):
And so I had to reframe for myself. This isn't
a boring, vanilla story. This is a story that more
people can even relate to. So we have to watch
what our self talk says to us, because it is
so quick to minimize us and say, well, that thing
I went through wasn't a big deal compared to what
other people go through, And so you know, we have
(41:37):
to be mindful of this thing called comparative grief where
we say, well, what I'm going through is nothing compared
to what the people in the Ukraine are going for
going through, which is true, and I can have grief
and pray for them and not minimize whatever is going
on in my life that is relative to my life.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Well, and as you say, I think so well, is
that you never know that one person. And you know,
I've really focused on the one in my life now
because originally it's like, all right, how am I going
to help all of these people? And all of a
sudden it's like, you know what. It goes back to
the story of the little boy during the shellfish, you know,
out the surfish out in the ocean, and you know,
(42:20):
the man saying what are you doing? He says, You're
not going to make a difference. He goes, I just
did for that one. And I think that's so important
for people to understand that as they go through this
process of frogs, and I love that as they go
through that process, they will find themselves sertain typically reaching
the one there will be one person out there that
(42:41):
they will be able to touch, and as that happens,
it will make the difference of that individual's life. And
so you know, as I hear what you've been doing
and so forth, I just honor you for what you've
done and what you are doing because it makes a difference.
And I think that's so important. He guess what our.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
Time is up?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
So so what I'd love for you to do, though,
is share with the audience just kind of a final message.
What would be that message that you'd like to share
with them?
Speaker 5 (43:13):
My message is that behind every now what is a
why not?
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Like why not?
Speaker 5 (43:22):
Ready to be unleashed. So when the now what shows up?
Say to yourself, what could this make possible?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (43:29):
I love it? I love it? And how do people
find you? Share with you their website and how can
they find your book?
Speaker 5 (43:36):
They can find both books on Amazon, that's easy, or
through my website which is Brenda at Brenda the letter
k Reynolds R E Y N O L d s
dot com.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Easiest way to find me.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
And like you, you know, whether you're a group, an
organization or that one little individual starfish.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I like working with the starfish too. And get Ben.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Wonderful, wonderful Brenda, thank you so much. This has been
just a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
It was, it really was. We could do around two
and three, you know, so I absolutely.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Hate you go ahead and book yourself again.
Speaker 4 (44:15):
I would love it jeezing, But thank you so much.
I enjoyed every minute.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
All right, and folks, thanks for listening. I hope you've
really enjoyed this and you'll take some things to heart.
And definitely I've got that book and I tell you
it's just fascinating. It's worth looking at. So anyway, thanks
for listening. I hope you join us again soon. This
is doctor Doug saying no mistay
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek
(00:22):
the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any
suggested ideas.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
At the end of the day, it's not about what
you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what
you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,
who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.
Denzel Washington, Welcome to inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is
to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you
(00:51):
to do the same.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Brenda welcome.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Oh I'm excited. You know, it's always so interesting how
people can together. And you know, I was doing an
interview just the other day talking about synchronicity, and I
think it's so amazing that you know that works so well,
and you know, you have such an interesting topic and
I'm looking forward to talking about it. I'd love for
you to share with the audience your story, your journey,
(01:18):
because I know that had a lot to do with
what you're doing now.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
It really does, really does. I mean I for my career.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
For the most of my career, I've been in a
training and development leader or organization development consultant. But you know,
what I was using in my work started to come
in handy in two thousand and eight when my.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Life took a side turn.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
It took it went sideway as I found myself unexpectedly divorcing,
becoming a single mom with two little boys, no guaranteed income,
no healthcare benefits, and every part of my life needed
to change.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
And in that moment, I were thinking, I was.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Really grateful that I had the background and training that
I did, and wishing that I could share more of
those messages with others.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
And so ultimately that's what I did.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
And in the two books that I've written, there really
about helping people through times of change and helping folks
be more resilient.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
And how does that work for you?
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Oh, I'm being tested right now, you know, doctor Doug.
I'm being tested. I think along with the rest of
the world. Right we wake up every morning and say
that wasn't a dream. Things are really changing. I got
to read my own books.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Well, yeah, it's so interesting. You know. We talk about
and as I say, I just got up an interview
talking about synchronicity, and one of the points that I
wanted to make for the folks that were listening is
that synchronicity doesn't always bring about the good things. Sometimes
(02:53):
we experience things that we don't consider good. But over
the years, as we look back, we realized it kind
of put us on a path. For instance, with your divorce,
with what happened in two thousand and eight, you know
that certainly wasn't something you would consider great, but look
where's put you now?
Speaker 4 (03:11):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
I always say I did a ted X talk and
I talk about navigating transition fog, and what I say
in that is, you know, we don't see the gift
of the fog until it's in the rearview mirror, and
then we look back and go, oh, yeah, I traveled
through that and I wouldn't want to do it again.
But I got to some destination that was pretty cool.
But man, that was a foggy, tricky journey.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Well, and you've written two books and I know we're
going to talk about this last book that you've written,
which I appreciate you have sent me, and so I
had a chance to skim through it. But what was
the first book you wrote and what motivated that and
what's it about?
Speaker 5 (03:47):
That first book was really after years after my divorce,
when I thought, gee, I wish leaders had this information
when they're leading themselves and others through times of change,
the information that I had from my master's degree program
in organization development. And then it occurred to me, well,
(04:09):
why don't I make that available to them.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
They don't have to go back and get an advanced degree.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
What if I write a very manageable, easy to read
book that takes some of those content topics and breaks
it down for them. So it's called TBD to be Determined,
Leading with clarity and confidence in uncertain times. And so
I wrote this right before my youngest son was going
off the year before he was going off to college,
because I did want to be that sad, weepy mom
(04:36):
that was sending him out the door. I wanted him
to be excited about his next chapter. And it really
was a time in my life, doctor Doug, where I
said to myself what are the dreams I haven't fulfilled yet?
What if I start to pursue one of those so
that I'm equally excited about the next chapter in my
life as he goes off to launch his And so
(04:57):
that's what I did. I wrote the book in twenty
seventeen and then was invited to do a ted X
talk on one of the topics in the book, which
is navigating transition fog.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
All right, and you know we met via LinkedIn and
that is really a very business side and I know
that most of your background has been working with businesses.
But what I have found is I've done a little
bit of consulting, was that what we talked about in
business applied so well to life. And so that's where
(05:27):
I like our focus of the discussion today is, you know,
as we talk about things, and we can bring up
what you talk you know, what you wrote in that
book as well as the other one. But the key
is is that what we can do in life. And
I kind of like to reverse it because I think
ultimately our success in business in a large degree, not always,
(05:48):
but in a large degree, depends on our success in life. Now,
there are obviously those who have been extremely successful in
business and not very successful in life. But the reality
I think with the majority of the population is if
they can become successful in their life, and that has
a lot of innuendos to it, that they can then
(06:09):
experience a successful and joyful experience in what they're doing
in business. But I think the most important thing is life.
They can enjoy life.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
I think you make a good good point, which is
I think we're conditioned in some weird way and I've
never thought about this until this moment to put it
this way, But we see life as a subset of
work instead of work as a subset of life, and
we forget that the bigger context is life. And when
I am coaching any executive, we probably spend more of
(06:41):
our time talking about their life than we do their
work world. Because they have plenty of people. They can
talk about their work world with plenty of folks who
can give them advice.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
But when it.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
Comes to opening up and being real and vulnerable and
authentic about the impact work has on the rest of
their life or the price they may be paying in
the rest of their life, they really need a trusted
companion to talk about those things with. Because the leadership
space can be pretty lonely and you have to watch
(07:14):
what you say to whomever well.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And you know, it's interesting also, and I've seen this
happen a lot, where you get people that are in
management positions and they are the most uncomfortable people to
work with. And when you look at that and really
analyze that, you can recognize that that has everything to
do with who they are and whatever is managing those
(07:39):
emotions rather than their management style per se.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
To me, being a good leader is mastering your use
of self. I call it use of self. How do
you show up in that space and use yourself? And
to do that, you know you need good self knowledge.
Better self knowledge means better self management means better leadership.
And so it's you know, leadership's and inside job. We
(08:05):
start there. That's my philosophy.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Anyway, and leadership in life I think becomes the whole key.
So let's talk about the second book. And it's really
a work book, which I love how you've done that.
But talk about the second book and what is that
about and and what motivated you to write this one?
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Well, you know, I got even further away from my
life circumstances and I began. I was still working with
a lot of people to your earlier point who were
not just wrestling with leadership, but they wanted to talk
about life, leading their lives.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
And I started to.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Reflect back, well, it's a very interesting talk about synchronous synchronicities.
When I was being divorced, my divorce attorney said to me, Brenda,
whatever you do, do not come in here and start
telling me about some guy you've met, some prince charming
that's going to save the day for you until you
have kissed at least five frogs. Now, doctor Doug, I
(09:03):
couldn't imagine going on one date, let alone five, So
that stuck with me, and as I began dating, I
was counting them.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Off like frogs, like one, two, three, four, five.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
I'm like, oh, maybe I'll write a book on, you know,
navigating divorce and dating. And then at the end of
the fifth frog, I thought, oh, that's gonna be a
really lame book. Forget that, so I just dropped the
whole thing. But those frogs stayed in my brain. And
then fast forward. I was walking by my television one
day and somebody said, frogs is an acronym for fully
(09:33):
reliant on God.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Now in the space that I was in.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
I probably waved my middle finger at the television that day,
thinking I'm not feeling like God is in my life
at this moment, but it still.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Was with me.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
And then I had a dream one night, and I
had a dream about this frog. And the next day
I went shopping with a girlfriend in the store just
chalk full of little knickknacks and chatchkes, and the first
thing my eyes went to was this ceramic frog that
was the exact frog.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
I dreamed about the night before. And then two weeks later, I.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
Was going through my office cleaning it out, and I
had saved an old Christmas card from a client, absolutely
nothing remarkable about it except that on the front of
that card was this frog. And it's like I started
seeing five frogs, you know, and I thought, what is
with the frogs?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
And I looked to them up.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
I started doing some research to find out just how
resilient frogs are and that they are symbols of change
and transformation.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
And as I reflected on my journey.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
I thought, oh, wait a minute, these are kind of
the stages we go through when any disorienting life or
work event hits us. And so each of the frogs
stands for a different stage that we go through on
the road to getting more and more resilient.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Well, I love that. As I looked at that, I've
been really contemplating a lot of things for a while,
and you know, I haven't written a book yet, but
I'm trying to. But what fascinated me is as I
was looking at the frogs and what you wrote for
each one of them, it just parallels so much. And
I think what's interesting is everyone comes from a different perspective,
(11:22):
and yet when you look at the reality of what
the message is is very similar. I find that fascinating.
I mean, being here in Thailand, you know, I've loved
to study Buddhism and then and I happen to be Christian,
so I'll start with that. But then also as I've
interviewed a number of people, they've talked about Vetic yoga,
(11:46):
which is really Hinduism. So I started looking at that,
and what I found is that the message from each
of those which are thousands, at least hundreds of not
thousands of years apart, are very similar.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
It's scient wisdom that comes through all across the world,
you know, and we just have different messengers who package
it differently, and someone who needs to hear it presented
this way, and somebody who needs to hear it presented
in frog form, and you know, somebody who comes from
it academically, and someone who comes from it, you know,
(12:21):
through religious religion. And so I think, yeah, we're all
downloaded with some of these messages were supposed to be
sharing simultaneously.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Well, let's talk about your philosophy, let's talk about let's
talk about what you personally went through or what you've
worked with clients, and you've seen what they've gone through.
But let's talk about frogs.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Oh, frogs.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
I've really never thought so much about frogs until I
started writing this, And really, to be honest with you,
there's an entire book I will write, and I've started
years ago. I started writing a full blown book on
this topic, and it's not quite ready yet. I'm still
not sure exactly where it goes. So in the meantime,
(13:03):
I thought, let me put out a guided journal on
the topic to see if it sticks, to see if
the acronym makes sense to people.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
And that's how the journal really came to be. And
it's been fascinating since I put it out to.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Hear the really unique ways people are using it, in
ways that I could never have even imagined. And so
the frogs is, you know, the F stage is when
something happens whether we whether we choose it, or it's
imposed on us. You know, my life situation was imposed
on me. But again you have to surrender to that.
(13:40):
Here it is, here we go, I'm about to go
on a journey. And in the F stage, it feels
like everything's falling apart. At a minimum, you're in a
fork in the road and you're trying to make a
lot of decisions, and there are a lot of other
F words that show up. We freak out, we may
get frustrated. We're in our raw feelings. It's a highly
(14:02):
emotional state and we want to honor that because the
emotions are real, and if we don't, they get stuffed down.
And even when I relate this model to what happens
in organizational life when leaders navigate change, when they announce
a big change, they often don't really want to hear
everybody's feelings. They just want to pretend they don't exist
(14:25):
and get on with the change. But research shows if
you don't let people find a healthy way to process
those emotions. As human beings, they get stuck deep in,
they get stuffed into the culture, and they will kind
of raise their rear their heads in very strange ways
and inopportune times because there's a distrust that get baked
(14:48):
gets baked into the culture.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Well, I know, it's interesting as to talk about freaking out.
You know. One of the things I've looked at is
I've interviewed different people that have gone through different processes
of transformation. What I find is there's always some situation
that has occurred in their life that causes that freaking out.
And I think that you know, you look at that,
(15:11):
you look what you went through. I've certainly gone through
similar things, and you realize that it's only that situation
that finally causes us to be motivated to start to
do something about our lives. It suddenly gives us realization that,
you know what, this is not the life that I want.
Speaker 5 (15:30):
It isn't It had me do a lot of things,
It had me say, you know, to be honest, I
was living in my dream home, a home I never
could have imagined living in, and in that moment, that
home meant nothing to me, and I said to myself
in this next chapter of life, it's really like I
will never get attached to material items again, and it's
really more about I want to lead a simple life,
(15:53):
a very simple life. And so that put me, you know,
on that trajectory. It put my focus squarely on on
my only prayer and goal was let me raise two
amazing human beings. That matters to me more than what
someone's going to pay me every year to do the
work that I do. It put me in a place
(16:14):
of saying what's really important to me now? And ultimately
it led me down a path where I could say, well,
what are the dreams I haven't fulfilled?
Speaker 4 (16:22):
And I guarantee you I don't think I would have
written a book. I don't think I.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
Would have hit the speaking circuit or done a ten
X talk if it hadn't been for that f moment
in my life.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Well, and that moves you into what you were just
talking about, which is the R which is reflecting and responsible.
And you know, I love that because you know, if
as we freak out, if we can really take the
time and have the ability to start to reflect as
you did, and honestly, you know, step outside of yourself,
look at your life and go, okay, what would I
(16:57):
want you to think about that? That becomes that's the thing.
But I love the word responsibility too, because I think
so many times people find themselves in evictim olty and
they don't even know that they're there, but all of
a sudden, they do not take responsibility for what's going
on in their lives. And obviously there are things such
(17:18):
as you talked about, you know, the divorce. It was
something that just happened and probably not you know whatever.
But things happen in our lives that we can say,
you know what, I'm not responsible for that. But what
we are responsible for is how we respond.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
Absolutely, and you know that responsibility.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
And that reflection goes two directions.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
So we look to the past and say, what was
my part in being here? What did I contribute to
this showing up? Because I think we have to start
with ourselves, and then we say, okay, now what's my part?
What is my You know, I break the word responsibility
out into the two words I always have the ability
to choose my response.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
It's my response.
Speaker 5 (18:03):
Ability, and that's where your power comes from. Remembering that
no matter what happens, you get to choose your response,
and you can I had a mentor who once said
to me, you can choose to change or influence a situation.
So that's option one. Option two is you can accept
(18:25):
it even temporarily, or the third is you have to
get out of it. And if you can just remember
that no matter what happens to you in life, you
always have those three choices. You feel less like a
victim because you get to pick what you're.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Going to do well. And as you've worked with and
again I assume you don't do a lot of personal coaching.
It sounds like you do more corporate and business type
of stuff. But even as you're working with those leaders
that you're working with, you find oftentimes they fall into
that victimhood.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
It's easy to It's either that or you know, no
leader feels like they're really in charge because even if
you're at the tippity top of the organization as a CEO,
you're still responding to the stakeholders, the shareholders, Wall Street,
the board, so no one really sees the things that
are happening is fully theirs, and so in that way,
(19:20):
it can feel like, yeah, they're not taking the full
responsibility or you can blame your employees because they're just
not getting on board with the change, or they're just
being so ungrateful.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
But I have a.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Background in organization dynamics, so I understand all of those invisible.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Forces that are happening in the organization.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
To set it up that way and try to shine
some light on that for people so they can see
from where they sit in the organization, what they're part
in the situation is, and what choices they have for
how they're going to show up. But I do want
to say this too, doctor Doug. It is fascinating to me.
And again this is where I just surrender to the universe.
I've always worked worked with businesses and leaders and corporations,
(20:03):
but I am noticing in the past year more and
more folks are coming to me who want to work with.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Me personally in personal life.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
And I think some of that is because the journal
the journal, it's not real corporate y. I mean, you
can use it that way if you're doing a corporate situation,
but it really just I think it really just speaks
to anybody, and so I'm just paying attention they're coming
and I actually have three different women who are asking
me for personal coaching that I'm working on proposals for
(20:37):
this week.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
That's great. And as you look at that from a
standpoint of this concept of victimhood, how would you help people,
let's get to the personal level rather than the business.
How would you help people to begin to understand that?
And I love how you use the word, you know,
responsibility and responsible. How can you help them to understand
(21:00):
and that whatever is happening, they have that responsibility. They
cannot blame someone else or what they're experiencing in life.
They may say, all right, this event happened, but they
can only blame themselves and take responsibility for their response,
for their emotions, and for their behavior based on their emotions.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, I think the power is in you know.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
I think the muscle we need to build and we're
in that R stages is learning how to reframe things.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
So if we see this as this thing that happened
to me that I didn't deserve.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
And I have a quote in here that I'm going
to probably misquote, but I love it. It's like saying
I'm because you know you're wearing red, but you're saying
because I'm a good person, bad things shouldn't happen to me.
The bull doesn't care. You know, if you're out here
expecting the world to treat you fairly because you're good,
(21:56):
it's like expecting the bull not to charge because you're
a vegetarian. Right, it's going to happen to us. We
cannot get away from things happening to.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Us that don't feel fair. So I think the first
step is accepting that life is not fair.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
No one said it was going to be. No one
said it was going to be. So what do you
do with your unfair situation?
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Is the question?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, And you know, it's interesting the Buddha talks about
that a lot, which I'm fascinated by. That philosophy that
he has is this concept of everyone experiences suffering. His
whole model was to help people to get to the
point where, yeah, life happens, but they don't have to suffer.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
And bring the choices that Buddha says, yes, suffering is
a choice. That's not the choice you want to make.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
That's right. So as you talk about that, the reality
is that we can ultimately get to the point where
life happens, but we don't let it affect us negatively.
We don't allow it to cause us to suffer extremely
but rather just understand what's going on, maybe understand that
(23:07):
it's part of synchronicity that we don't understand yet, but
ultimately as we work through it, and that goes through
your next phase. And so i'll have you talk about
that as far as once we do the reflecting, once
we take that responsibility, then we go into the old
what does that stand for?
Speaker 5 (23:25):
And it's funny because I think you're leading into it
with that comment about Buddhism right. Part of the overcoming
the obstacles, which is what O stands for, is one
of the first things is surrendering to the situation.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Two.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
Buddhism talks about this concept also in permanence, which I love.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
It reminds us that, oh.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
You're having a great day, well just wait, that's going
to change, right, the next day may not be so great.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Oh you're having a bad day, Well don't worry. It's
going to change and you'll have a good day.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
So good and bad is going to we're going to
flip flop between them because we're always in a state
of impermanence. So I think when we're having a tough time,
if we remind ourselves. This isn't going to be here
like this forever. But we also appreciate then the really
good times because we know they're not going to last
(24:16):
forever either. There's going to be a bump ahead somewhere,
and then we get to live in gratitude with what's
right in front of us. And I think the overcoming
obstacles is, you know, some of those obstacles are mindset obstacles.
Some of them are just keeping ourselves from being paralyzed
and making even the smallest inroad, the smallest step towards something.
(24:41):
You know, I remember back in my divorce days, just
getting out of bed felt like a huge win. Just
getting showered, or just getting two kids off to the
school bus. Those are all winds, And to this day,
it just happened two weeks ago. I thought, Man, I
feel really busy right now, But I don't know how
(25:02):
productive I'm being. You know, a lot of the work
I'm doing isn't really even paying paid work, you know
what am I doing? But I know I'm doing important
stuff on some level. So I actually took a piece
of paper and I started writing down, I'm looking over
here because it's here somewhere and I started writing down
the things I had been working on that week, and
many of them were foundational things like updating my website
(25:24):
and updating my bio and making a few phone calls,
and they were really important things, but they didn't feel
like they were instantly creating an outcome. But I had
to in that moment remind myself that this is headway,
This is important stuff.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
I think we lose track of it. We only count
the big things.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Yes, And I love how you talk about mindset and
how you know, we've grown up, particularly in the US
culture of wanting things now, and you know, we we
have lost that to understand the value of patients and
understanding that, you know what, we have to do those
(26:06):
foundational things first before we can expect the results. But
let's talk about mindset a little bit, because I think
that's really important. As you talk about mindset, what are
you really talking about and what is what is? What
are those subconscious things that can affect our mindset? And
how do we get to the point where we are
really in control of our mindset as you know, totally
(26:29):
talks about in control of managing our ego and those
type of things which I think becomes extremely important if
we want to move into the next step of moving forward.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
Yeah, I think it's really taking You know, I have
a mentor who used to call that voice in our
heads his yama yama, and he said, you know, your
yama yama, which is your ego voice, is always there
for most of us. And so it isn't about getting
rid of it, but it is about learning to turn
the volume down on it, because that creates a negative mindset,
(27:02):
and that voice is usually talking to us worse than
we would ever talk to a friend of ours. It
says really terrible things to us, and so we've got
to turn it down because it's going to tell you
this is terrible and this thing that's happening to you
is devastating. Well what if it isn't you know, what
if that thing is here to serve us in some
(27:24):
strange way, but we just can't see what it.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Is just yet.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
And so part of the obstacles we need to overcome
is how we're even looking at the situation.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
And if we reframe.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
What looks like a challenge as something more favorable. Not
to say we get real Pollyanna, but we do say,
what if we get curious, what if this is here
to serve me somehow.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
What if this is here to teach me something?
Speaker 5 (27:52):
What if this is an opportunity disguised as a problem,
And when we can reframe a rainy day as an
opportunity to get some home projects done. Or when I
was going through my divorce and we moved and my
children were in a new neighborhoodhere I didn't really know anyone.
(28:12):
I ended up taking a job back inside Corporate America
for four years just to pay the bills, and I
had this long, hour long commute, and I for the
first three months I cried every day there and.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Back because I didn't want to do this commute.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
And one day a friend said to me on the telephone, Hey, Brenda,
this isn't forever.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
This is just a temporary bridge to what's next.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
And I was like, Oh, something about it that day
was what I needed to hear, And all of a sudden,
I was able to reframe my commute as what a
gift I have been a whole hour two hours a
day where I can stay in touch with family, make
phone calls to friends, listen to a radio program, a
book on tape. And I went so far as to say,
(29:03):
I want to make the most of this commute. I
sold my car and I bought a pre owned sports car,
and I'm like, I'm going to love this commute in
every way. I'm going to take advantage of the time.
I'm going to love my vehicle. I'm going to feel
like I'm so lucky I get to drive this thing
for two hours every day.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
And that was how I chose.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
To say, what are the things I can control to
make this more palatable?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Well, and as you start to work with individuals, I
know you're going to come up with this if you
haven't already, is you watch this behavior and it doesn't
make sense. It just doesn't make sense. It's not even
something they want to do, but it seems like it's
habitual mindset that they continue to do. And how often
(29:49):
have you thought and going into what are those subconscious
imprints that are causing the response? You know, talk about divorce,
we talk about relationships. As I was doing some certifications
in coaching, one of the things that came up and
(30:09):
I always laugh about it because the fellows said, you know,
this is something if you're in a relationship and things
are struggling. He says, never do this, but this is
what you should do. When your partner starts to get upset.
What you need to do is sit back and say, honey,
what emotion just came up that you responded to and
(30:31):
helping them to understand that an event has no emotions
tied to it. We apply an emotion, and oftentimes that
emotion we apply is based on those subconscious beliefs, of
subconscious imprints that oftentimes we had no control over that
caused us to respond in an interesting way. I mean,
(30:52):
we look at what's going on right now in the
United States, the anger that exists, all of that is
on both sides, and it's interesting to me to see
how people react and I think to myself, you know what,
here's the surface reaction going on, but what's internally going
(31:12):
on to cause someone to respond that way? And I
think that that really gets into that whole concept of
reflecting and responsibility that you talk about, is being able
to recognize what's happening there and then you get into
the oh where you're starting to overcome some of those obstacles.
And I really think you know, as we know, ninety
(31:33):
percent of our brain is subconscious.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
Right what drives our behaviors is really ninety percent subconscious,
and so it's about you know, I always know when
I'm coaching someone and I just get this this intuitive
feeling that it's time to ask a deep question like that,
and you know when you've stumbled on some subconscious hardwiring
that's in there. I remember coaching a key was in
(32:00):
a world renowned cardiac surgeon and he was just known to.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
Be a bear to work with.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
I mean, it got to the point where people were quitting.
He couldn't keep nurses, the operating room could not get staffed.
His reputation preceded him. They were having a hard time
recruiting people. And I coached him for a while and
then one day I finally said to him, tell me
about your childhood. And I build enough trust with him
(32:30):
that he would. And he shared with me how as
a young little boy he had to escape a war
torn country for his life, and so for him, his
conditioning is that life is a battleground, life is a
war and he showed up every day like a warrior,
(32:50):
and Wow, we had the most incredible conversation. And sometimes
those are the moments and you just see the emotion
in people after e'bask a cer in question that you
know they're about to have a breakthrough.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
And it had me look at him differently too.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
It had me appreciate why he shows up the way
he does based on his early life conditioning and his
subconscious beliefs.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
So we got to unpack those.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
He's still there, he has managed to you his I
think his head was on the chopping block at the time,
but he is still there. And it's very funny. He
said to me in our very last session, and this
was long before I even thought about writing a book.
He looked at me and said, so, Brenda, do you
think you're writing a book someday?
Speaker 4 (33:33):
And I was like, I don't know where that is
coming from. I said, I don't know why. He goes,
do you think I'll be in it? We need to
get your ego under control.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah, And I love that. And you know what, for
people to understand that, that's what it means to overcome obstacles,
they are their greatest obstacle. They's subconsciousness their greatest obstacle.
And so I love that they freak out, that they
start to reflect then and be responsible for that and
then start to overcome those and that moves us into
(34:04):
the next one, which is the G. And then what
occurs as they're doing that process.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
It's g. I think I'm growing and now. And this
is in the smallest of ways, you know. It was.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
I was talking to my mother yesterday about a friend
of hers who just lost her husband back in November,
and my mom said, oh, Mary's really showing some signs
of growth. She's practicing going out to eat by herself.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
She's never had to do that before. She's always had
her partner. And you know, some people go, what's the
big deal? You know, I to do that all the time.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
But to Mary, it's a very big deal and it
shouldn't be minimized. And I think we minimize our growth
within ourselves sometimes we.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Go, oh, well, that's a new big deal. You know.
I don't know if this happens to other people.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
But the minute I wrote I remember, before I wrote
a book, I was like, if I would meet an author,
I would revere them, Oh my gosh, you wrote a book,
because that is something I've always wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Once I wrote a book, I was like, I wrote
a book. Anyone can write a book. It stops being
such a big deal.
Speaker 5 (35:12):
Anymore, and we start to minimize that thing that was
actually a very big, complicated deal. And so we have
to not minimize our growth in any way, shape or form,
big or small, because even without trying, we're going to grow. Now,
if we are really intentional, we can have very big leaps.
(35:35):
Going back to the frog, right, we can take and
now what and turn.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
It into a why not. We can make that big leap.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
We can find ourselves more resilient, we can find ourselves
better at reframing difficult situations. We can find ourselves taking
risks we never would have taken if this thing hadn't
happened to us. But the reason I have a spot
in the back of the journal to record hops is
because the hops, big progress doesn't happen in one big
(36:06):
quantum leap. You know, even if you think about professional
sports athletes, you know, we see them on the screen
and they're the star quarterback.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
For an NFL team. Guess what, there were so many
things that.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
Had to happen along the way, and every one of
those counted. So if we count our hops and record them,
then we actually notice our progress. And I like the
idea that a hop is only one letter away from
hope because it's in the hops that hope shows up
(36:39):
that we're going somewhere good well.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
And I love that and the fact that you know,
the continual hops and the realization that you know, sometimes
we're going to hop to the side which may not
be where we wanted to be, but you know, we
have to because there's this obstacle in front of us.
They're recognizing on that growing part that it is a process,
is something that we have to have patience for and
(37:02):
trusting that we can actually accomplish. And when we do
that and focus on that and overcome, and sometimes you
will repeat, but that overcome and overcome, and all of
a sudden, we start to really see that growth. I
love that.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
I saw this diagram on social media, so I'm totally
blatantly stealing it, and it showed this diagram of something happening,
and this little word caption comes up that says, oh,
I can't do that, Oh.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
Maybe I can.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
Oh I can't do that, Well maybe I can, and
I did, Oh maybe I can do that, Oh I can,
and I did. I Mean, we start out going I
don't know if I can do that, and then we
get to the point where after time of doing something
and proving ourselves again and again. When that thing shows
up next, we go I got this, I got this.
(37:53):
But it's only because we've had that series of small
successes and we build our confidence.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Yes, and once we've been able to do that over time,
then comes in the S. And what is the S?
Speaker 5 (38:04):
Oh, my divorce attorney would be so proud of the
S stage because the S is not waiting for someone
else to make it better for you. It's not the
prince or the princess who saved the day and brought
you the crown. It's you crowning a more sovereign, expanded,
stronger royal version of yourself.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
It's where you say I did that.
Speaker 5 (38:31):
I don't know how I did that. I wouldn't want
to do it again, but I did it. And the
beauty when we get to that space is it's from
that space that we can share our stories with people
going through similar situations and we serve from that space.
(38:51):
I very much think the way I work with people
today has so much to do with what I went through.
I've even had people will hire me because of some
of my life experiences because they go, you're going to
understand me.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
You're going to get it. You won't judge me.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
You've been through something similar, and so this thing that
felt so awful has actually become, in some cases, the
very thing that creates trust and authenticity between me and
the person I'm working with.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
And ultimately we crown our our more resilient version of.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Ourselves well, and then we pay it forward. And it's
so interesting, isn't it. I mean, is as I have
interviewed so many people, it's fascinating to me how they've
gone through these difficult times such as you did, and
yet ultimately when they come out, then there's that sense
of I want to serve others. I want to be
(39:48):
able to help others and help lift their lives up
and not ultimately be trodden down by the experiences, but
being able to understand that they can transform for those experiences
and become as you say, a stronger and as you
put it, and you didn't say the words, but sovereign self,
someone who literally now is in control of their lives. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:11):
And I mean I've had to talk to my self
talk on occasion too, because I started speaking on the topic,
and there have been times when I've said to myself,
you know who wants to hire me.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
I mean, my story it's pretty vanilla. It's a divorce.
In today's world.
Speaker 5 (40:31):
Sadly people say, yeah, I have no big deal. It's
a divorce. Most of us you know what that's about.
It's not like I've scaled a mountain. I haven't lost
a limb, I haven't survived a shipwreck.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
I'm not a celebrity. Who would want to hear my story?
That's really simple story of resilience.
Speaker 5 (40:53):
And then I really had to have a talk and
to with myself to say, well, Brenda, let's get real.
If you're staring out at an audience of listeners, how
many of them can relate to scaling a mountain, being
a celebrity, losing a limb?
Speaker 4 (41:08):
Very few?
Speaker 5 (41:09):
But I've at at least fifty percent of those folks
have known what it's like to go through a big
life transition.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Or a divorce.
Speaker 5 (41:16):
And so I had to reframe for myself. This isn't
a boring, vanilla story. This is a story that more
people can even relate to. So we have to watch
what our self talk says to us, because it is
so quick to minimize us and say, well, that thing
I went through wasn't a big deal compared to what
other people go through, And so you know, we have
(41:37):
to be mindful of this thing called comparative grief where
we say, well, what I'm going through is nothing compared
to what the people in the Ukraine are going for
going through, which is true, and I can have grief
and pray for them and not minimize whatever is going
on in my life that is relative to my life.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Well, and as you say, I think so well, is
that you never know that one person. And you know,
I've really focused on the one in my life now
because originally it's like, all right, how am I going
to help all of these people? And all of a
sudden it's like, you know what. It goes back to
the story of the little boy during the shellfish, you know,
out the surfish out in the ocean, and you know,
(42:20):
the man saying what are you doing? He says, You're
not going to make a difference. He goes, I just
did for that one. And I think that's so important
for people to understand that as they go through this
process of frogs, and I love that as they go
through that process, they will find themselves sertain typically reaching
the one there will be one person out there that
(42:41):
they will be able to touch, and as that happens,
it will make the difference of that individual's life. And
so you know, as I hear what you've been doing
and so forth, I just honor you for what you've
done and what you are doing because it makes a difference.
And I think that's so important. He guess what our.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
Time is up?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
So so what I'd love for you to do, though,
is share with the audience just kind of a final message.
What would be that message that you'd like to share
with them?
Speaker 5 (43:13):
My message is that behind every now what is a
why not?
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Like why not?
Speaker 5 (43:22):
Ready to be unleashed. So when the now what shows up?
Say to yourself, what could this make possible?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (43:29):
I love it? I love it? And how do people
find you? Share with you their website and how can
they find your book?
Speaker 5 (43:36):
They can find both books on Amazon, that's easy, or
through my website which is Brenda at Brenda the letter
k Reynolds R E Y N O L d s
dot com.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Easiest way to find me.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
And like you, you know, whether you're a group, an
organization or that one little individual starfish.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I like working with the starfish too. And get Ben.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Wonderful, wonderful Brenda, thank you so much. This has been
just a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
It was, it really was. We could do around two
and three, you know, so I absolutely.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Hate you go ahead and book yourself again.
Speaker 4 (44:15):
I would love it jeezing, But thank you so much.
I enjoyed every minute.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
All right, and folks, thanks for listening. I hope you've
really enjoyed this and you'll take some things to heart.
And definitely I've got that book and I tell you
it's just fascinating. It's worth looking at. So anyway, thanks
for listening. I hope you join us again soon. This
is doctor Doug saying no mistay
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