June 16, 2025 • 44 mins
Former trial attorney turned executive coach, Paul Glover, shares his journey from success to downfall, and the powerful lessons in transformation, leadership, and self-awareness he gained along the way. Discover why having a “fool” in your life is essential, and how to uncover blind spots, and the real path to lasting change.
Inspire Vision Podcast is broadcast on K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Inspire Vision Podcast TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Inspire Vision Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Inspire Vision Podcast is broadcast on K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Inspire Vision Podcast TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Inspire Vision Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, or any advice.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You should seek the services.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
At the end of the day, it's not about what
you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what
you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,
who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.
Denzel Welshon, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is
to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you
to see.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Paul Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Thank you, doctor Doug. I appreciate being here.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Well, I'm looking forward to this. You know, I had
a chance to listen to your ted X talk and
it was really fascinating and you obviously went into some
interesting topics. But what I'd love for you to do
is share with the audience kind of your background and
I know that will bring up the whole story to
a little degree, and then we'll get into that maybe
a little bit further. But if you could do that,
(01:14):
I know you do a lot of different things, and
if you could share with the audience what was your
journey that brought you to this point, I think that
would be interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Absolutely well. For thirty years, I was a practicing federal
trial attorney in the city of Chicago, practicing labor and
employment law. I took a detour. I became a convicted felon,
spent five and a half years in a federal prison,
got out, and because I could no longer practice law,
(01:46):
I decided I was going to take my life experiences,
including the concept of surviving, of failure and recovering, and
turning it into a coaching platform. I've been an executive
coach since two thousand and one. I now have a
national coaching practice. My largest client's billion dollar privately held company.
(02:10):
That's my trajectory. In about thirty seconds, it covers seventy years.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Okay, So as you work with these large companies, what's
your main focus with them or is it kind of
in general? I know when I was working with very
small companies as a consultant. I was finding that I'm
really focusing on the organizational aspects of it and kind
of going through a whole process of marketing and all
of that type of thing. What's your focus with those companies?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, I bill myself as the NOBS workplace performance coach.
I work with the executive suite, and it's all about
improving leadership of the leaders. I actually my tagline is
challenging the best to become better, and I work exclusively
in taking those leadership skill sets and making them much better.
(03:02):
That's it in a nutshell. I wish it was more complicated,
but it's not. I take my experience plus the experience
of being a coach now for thirty years, and I
turned that into some valuable actionable input.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Okay, And you know what I find fascinating as I
worked with individuals, and like I say, not to the
degree that you do by any stretch of the imagination,
but while I was doing that, what I found was
there so often that whatever skills you were teaching business
wise were literally skills that they needed in their own lives.
(03:37):
Because each one of us really needs to be a
leader in our own life. Is that not true?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Oh? Absolutely? The concept of trying to By the way,
this is a new concept. I absolutely agree with you.
But leadership prior to the pandemic, especially was compartmentalized. You
left your personal life at home. Leaders did not like
the concept of sharing. They didn't want to be vulnerable,
(04:03):
they didn't want to be authentic. They felt that that
made them look weak and ineffective. The pandemic changed that
people stopped being willing to accept this division of your
one thing outside of work and you're another thing at work.
You're not. You're a holistic person. You bring that bagage
(04:23):
wherever it may be to the workplace, but you also
take it home with you. So yeah, you're actually you're
spot on with us. My context of coaching is about
their life, not just about their work.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Okay. And you know, I listened to your ted X talk,
as I mentioned, and and you talk about the fact
that everybody needs a fool in their life. And we're
going to get into that, Okay, but that's going to
be maybe near the end of what we're going to
talk about today, because one of the things I want
to talk to you about, because you had mentioned them,
is these blind spots that we have and briggers that
(05:00):
activate them. I in fact, I found a quote that
I found interesting and I want to share it with
you with the audience because I think it's pertinent to
what we're going to talk about. Is from Carljng and
what he says is, until you make the unconscious conscious,
it will direct your life and you will call it
fate and yeah, spot on. And what I find is
(05:24):
that so often we don't realize that our literal experience
in life is a result of that unconscious subconscious, those
those triggers, those blind spots as you refer to them.
And so I'm going to ask you a very transparent question.
You were You were an attorney in Chicago. By the way,
I grew up in Chicago, so I love Chicago. But
(05:46):
you were an attorney in Chicago you ended up going
to prison.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Why? Ego?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Ego?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yes, and let me tell you that ego was my
blind spot. I think it is the blind spot for many.
And yes, my ego led me to believe that I
was tell you I was, I was the smartest guy
in the room. There was never any room that I
was in that I didn't truly believe that I was
extraordinarily successful as an attorney and a smart guy, but
(06:17):
stupid when it comes to relationships. And because of that
ego and the desire to belong. I came from a
broken home and I strived to find stability in my life,
but I also needed acceptance. I always felt like I
was an outcast. I was a loaner. I did not
(06:38):
join groups, and the clientele that I represented was morally reprehensible. However,
I was fascinated by them, and they really wanted me
to join their group, because having a smart lawyer to
defend you when you commit a crime is a plus.
(06:59):
And I wanted that group. I wanted to belong and
they gave me the opportunity. But there's initiation fee to
belong to any group, and that initiation fee was obviously
to commit those morally reprehensible tasks, the things that you did,
and I did that with I did that willfully. I
(07:20):
don't I make no bumps about it. I absolutely deserve
to go to prison. However, so those two blind spots
for me, the ego and the need to belong, allowed
me to be triggered by the way people recognize your
blind spots even though you don't.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
And then if they're not good. They'll take advantage of them.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Absolutely, they'll manipulate you by pressing triggering those blind spots.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Okay, So one of the things that I've observed in
myself as well as others, and as we've talked on
these podcasts for years now about this topic, is fascinating
that we literally create our life, We literally create our experiences,
and oftentimes we don't realize initially at least that those
(08:07):
experiences are a result of those limiting beliefs that we
have a subconscious type of things. Oftentimes it's not even conscious.
Oftentimes it's actually built in our DNA, and we don't
realize that the epigenetics of that is causing us to
do certain things. But my question for you, and you
had mentioned a little bit of it, but let's let's
(08:29):
do a deep dive, because I think for the audience
it would be really fascinating for them to understand what
you discovered in a deep way about your previous life
as a child and your subconscious imprints, and you call
them blind spots that triggered you to do the things
that you did that ultimately now you are very sorry
(08:54):
that you did, and obviously you have changed your life
but what were those things talked about needing to be accepted?
Were there others that you wanted to be a part
of a group? What was it that actually literally caused
you to make those decisions and at the time feel
like it was okay.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Well, first, just you're correct about these mind spots are
with us from birth. They they're there. We don't see them,
but we also can't get rid of them. It does
not matter how hard we try, they continue to exist.
It is our ability to recognize them and exert control.
(09:36):
So at the time, because first overconfident, very successful, ego
driven one and more, by the way, trial trial lawyers
are adrenaline junkies. You know you're not a trial lawyer
if you don't enjoy the high and I did. My
problem was between trials when I wasn't actually in front
(09:57):
of the jury and in court in front of the
jumb engaged in that verbal combat with a worthy opponent.
I was bored. I didn't like that, and I saw it.
I sought out adrenaline inducing opportunities. And by the way,
this group that I speak of, my client base, offered
me that they offered me acceptance, They offered me the
(10:20):
adrenaline high. They offered me the ego stroking that I craved.
I needed to be told that I was good. I
needed to be told I was exceptional. This came from again,
I go back to my childhood. A broken home leaves
that indelible impact on you. You never feel like you're
completely first, You feel like you may have caused it.
(10:43):
You don't know why adults do what they do as
a kid, so you make those assumptions. And I assumed
that it was something that I did. I never found
that out, obviously because it wasn't true. But it didn't
mean I didn't believe it. I did believe it. And
because of that, I was always offering from imposter syndrome.
Even though I would tell you I was the smartest
(11:04):
guy in the room, I was never sure that that
level of doubt continues to permeate every action that I took.
So I craved that. I craved all of the stuff
that I got from people who realized my blind spots
and decided to take advantage of them.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Well, and you know that's true, and unfortunately you know
whether it's people. And like I said, I grew up
in Chicago, so I get what you're talking about. But
you know, people that are not necessarily good will obviously
identify those type of things and take advantage of those.
There are others that will take advantage of situations that
(11:46):
will empower them. For instance, when you get into abuse,
whether it's physical or mental or emotional, whatever that happens
to be. So often people find themselves continually in those
same relationships because they've never been able to figure out
internally and subconsciously what they were, what was really going on,
(12:07):
what was causing that type of thing. Now I want
to disagree with you on one thing, and okay, and
it may be worth thinking the same thing, and there
is no disagreement. But my belief system, and as I've
studied it, what I find is that there literally is
a way to change neural pathways. So do we ever
(12:28):
totally overcome those imprints and get them wipe from a memory.
Absolutely not. But I believe that as we consciously, with
a mindset and emotional intelligence, start to observe what's going
on and literally allow ourselves to recognize reframe those because
(12:49):
as you say, it's really perception from childhood all the time,
or at least a lot of the time, and be
able to change the neural pathways to where you don't
totally eliminate the neural pathways, but you've moved to the side,
to the point that if you were really in a
conscious situation, when those emotions start to come up, you
immediately moved them to the side because you're now more
(13:09):
conscious and you've created a stronger nearrow pathway. What are
your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
No, first, I don't disagree with you at all. I
think that for most of us it is extraordinarily difficult
for us to do that on our own. That's why
we'll talk about the concept of the pool. That's my crunching.
But let me tell you that the seminal event that
allowed me the opportunity to do exactly what you say
(13:35):
was going to prison. If I had not gone to
prison first, I wouldn't have survived. I would have been
dead long ago. That experience forced me to understand these
blind spots, and with the help of a support system,
I did exactly what you said. I started to change
the way I looked at my life and how I behaved,
(13:57):
but only under that amount of direct It took me
going to prison. And let me tell you how wrong
we embedded these are I stood in front of a
judge who was getting ready to sentence me to seven
years of incarceration and two things. First, I had practiced
in front of this judge, and the judge said, as
he prepared the sentence me, you're one of the few
(14:17):
people that I wish I could give more time to,
but he couldn't under the sentencing guidelines. And he offered
me an opportunity. He said, I'm going to reduce your
sentence by twenty percent if you do only two things. First,
I'd already been found guilty. It was my second trial.
I'd been found guilty in the second trial. I was
(14:37):
going to go to prison. Yeah, there was no way
around this. He said, you must accept responsibility for what
you did, and you must agree to cooperate with the
prosecuting attorney to concerning those people that committed the crimes
with you. Now, listen, is a no brainer, isn't it?
A twenty percent reduction in prison time? Lets me go
(14:59):
home a year year and a half early. And I
said no, and.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
You probably would have been killed in prison. Maybe let's
be honest.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
By the way, I have to admit I had an
insurance package that we don't need to talk about that.
I don't think that would have happened. Second, you could
be very selective about information. But the reality was that
I didn't do that out of fear, I tell you truthfully.
I did it out of the the need to still
be a part of this group that would have that
could cut me loose in a heartbeat. Right, there is
(15:34):
no honor among thieves. And if you think that someone
is going to support you when you get in trouble,
you're wrong. They run away from you. But that's how
strongly embedded my needs were, my blind spots were. It
took going to prison, and it took two years of
incarceration before I started to understand the need to do
exactly what you said, reframe my life and start to
(15:59):
have this this opportunity to see it differently but also
to behave differently based on this different perception.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Well, and you know, you talk about something fascinating. So
this is nothing I thought we were going to talk about.
But let's talk about prison for a minute, because you know,
so often people come out of prison as convicted whatever,
and they have a real struggle in their lives to
be able to you know, generate income, to be able
to get a decent job and so forth. Obviously that
(16:28):
didn't happen to you. But my question is this, and
I think it may be important for the audience to
understand if this is what happened in prison, did they
offer you some coaching, Did they offer you anything for
you to be able to finally get into where you
were able to analyze what was going on as you
were talking about or was that all on your own
(16:49):
by just reading and doing those things.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
The prison is not about rehabilitation, it's warehousing. No, they
don't offer any opportunities to change your life. Prison. It's
just not what it's The system is not structured that way.
So no, I did this on my own, and I'll
tell you. I'll tell you this seminal moment. I spent
the first two years of incarceration engaged in revenge fantasy.
(17:12):
I was going to get even with everyone who put
me in prison. I accepted no responsibility for having myself,
destroying my life, leaving my family destitute, and spending five
and a half years, at age fifty in prison. The
thing that the thing that happened was at the end
of year two men that I had seen in prison
(17:35):
when I got there, started and got and been released
started to come back, and that shocked me, and I
suddenly realized that if I did not put in the
effort to change who I was and how I behaved,
how I thought that I was going to be a
career criminal, that was going to be made. I was
going to lose my family and continue to get out,
(17:57):
commit the same crimes, maybe the different fashion, and returned
to prison. That shock started me on this transformation journey.
But no, prison doesn't do any of that for you.
I'll let me relate to anecdotes. Because I was never
of service. It was never a part of my life
to be of service to anyone except myself. Until I
(18:20):
went to prison and my wife and I reached a compact.
I had asked her to become my fool, the person
who would help me transform, and she said no. She said,
I know you, I love you, but I know that
if I say something you need to change or that
you're wrong, We're going to end up in a debate.
She said, I'm not going to drive five and a
(18:41):
half hours one weekend a month to spend two days
with you and fight, so I'm not interested. Shocked me.
I was like, oh my god, it's a person who
loves me the most, and they're not going to help me.
I said that I need to do this, and she said,
so she loved. Thirty days later, she comes back and
we had this discussion and I said, okay, let's talk
(19:02):
about how we can make this work, because I have
to do this. If I can't do this, I can't
do it on my own. And she said, all right,
I'll tell you what the rules are. She said, every month,
the last hour of our visit, I'm going to give
you three things you need to work on, and when
I come back a month later, you better tell me
what you've done to work on them. She said. The
first time you don't do that, I'm done so with
(19:24):
that force, and I mean it killed me to hear that,
because at the end of every visiting session for four
four years after that, the last half hour she would,
by the way, she never she never lacked for things
to tell me I needed to change.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
So I can't.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Imagine, oh, yeah, I I destroyed her life. I mean, seriously,
if the fact that she stayed with me is crazy,
she and she would give me the three things, and
all I could say was.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Thank you, Yeah, let me let me ask you this
question because you know, you talk in general about after
two years you decided you needed to really do that.
What caused the AHA moments for you to suddenly sit
back and say, you know what, I've got to change
or my life will never change and I'll be back
here again in a number of years. What was that
(20:14):
AHA moment for you? Because what I find so often
is people go through lives and many of them never
have an AHA moment. They just continue on and continue on,
whereas other people something happens that gives them that AHA
moment that says, you know it, I've got to do
this introspective work. What was it for you?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
First, I'm going to disagree with you. Everybody has an
AHA moment, you just choose to ignore.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
It, right, Okay, you're right, you're right.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Well yeah and so so yeah, and again. I saw
guys start to come back to prison, and it just
was it was like, oh my god, that was it.
That was the lightning bolt that shocked me up. Until
that time, it had never occurred to me that people
would ever come back. Don't you learn your lesson? So
(21:00):
at that point I realized that I was not learning
my lesson. That I was exactly like them. And again
self esteem came into this because I was in prison
thinking I'm an educated guy, I've got the every opportunity
when I get out, And then I certainly realized probably not.
If I'm not different, life will not be different from me.
(21:20):
Why would it be. This was just an interlude. If
I didn't do something about it, it would just be
a repeat. So that was it, And you know, I
wish I could tell you that was a specific thing,
but it just was suddenly realizing and being shocked by
the fact that people would come back to this place
that I was find so hard to get out of.
(21:41):
It just realization, you know, and and I wish again
nothing else. The interesting thing was when I talked to
my wife, that was that was That was actually when
you want the aha moment when she said she was
not going to help me. That you're a spot on. Yes,
The aha moment was not this realization about what I
(22:02):
needed to do. It was the realization that the person
who loved me the most was not going to help
me to do it. And that was the turning.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Point because of who you were as far as she
understood up to that point. Absolutely, yeah, which I find me.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
So you talk about fool, and you defined it very
well in your ted X talk. But I like for
you now, because we're going to talk about this, you
say you need a fool in your life, talk a
little bit about the background of that, because most people,
I'm sure are not going to get it.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Nobody gives it. Let's that's why I was a But
I started trying to pitch this Beepore are like, You've
got to change the title. It's not no one's going
to understand any No, I'm I'm a reader. But in prison,
I was a voracious reader. Right, there's so much time,
and I read about the concept of the medieval king
(22:55):
who was appointed by God, and the concept of the
fool that was the counterbalance to infallibility. The deal was
that the king, because he was appointed by God, was infallible.
Anyone who challenged the king his behavior, his actions committed
committed treason and would have their head cut off. However,
(23:16):
the exception to that was the fool. Now, when we
see the fool in a picture or in a movie,
we look at him as an entertainer sitting at the
foot of the throne. They're dressed up in that weird garb.
They jump up and they sing a song, they tell
a joke. That wasn't the function of the fool. The
function of the fool was because they were viewed as
being crazy, they had the psychological safety to tell the
(23:40):
king they were wrong. So the fool actually was a
trusted advisor to the king, which was that counterbalance to
absolute power. I loved that concept. I read it and
I said, you know, first I said, ego, I'm the king, right,
I didn't say I was. I said, I'm the king.
(24:01):
I need to find the fool, all right. So the
concept was at was backwards at the beginning. But as
I worked my way through this concept with my wife,
who was my fool, became my fool and gave me
the gift of truth. And I look at coaching as
(24:21):
a calling because of my experience. I bought that with
me and I developed a coaching process based on my
being a leader's fool. So many leaders live in echo chambers.
They only hear how good they are. The psychological safety
we talk about it a lot, right, the safety and
(24:42):
the freedom to tell someone the truth. Well, we love
to think that that exists in our organizations, but it doesn't.
People are afraid to tell leaders the truth they know
something bad will happen to them, or they're afraid of will.
So as an independent contractor a coach, I said, well,
that's my job. I will tell leaders the truth. And
(25:05):
that's been the basis for coaching. So that's the process
and the concept of the pool. And I believe my
Ted Talks says it, everyone needs a pool in their life.
If you don't have someone to tell you the truth
about you, you will never be able to overcome those
blind spots, even recognize them, avoid those triggers and start
(25:26):
to reach your full potential as a human being.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Well, and you know, I believe that's true. And whether
we call them coaches or you know, if the psychologists
or whatever you want to call them, or you know,
your personal full But here's my question. Obviously, quite frankly,
you were very fortunate that your wife, ultimately, when she
decided to do that, had the ability to do that.
(25:52):
I've worked with some people just kind of more as
a friend than anything else, and I know sometimes that's
where you get your fools. But as I've worked with
a few people, and one that comes to my mind
particularly they also have other friends that literally, in my opinion,
in my professional opinion, are leading them the wrong way
(26:15):
and are supporting them in their idiocy and not really
and in their ego and all of those type of things,
rather than telling them the truth, maybe because they don't
know the truth, or number two, because they don't really
have the courage to tell the truth because they're afraid
that it might ruin the friendship or whatever. So as
(26:36):
you talk about finding that fool in your life, how
important is it and what guidelines do you need to
use in order to make sure that whoever that is,
that's your fool, that's your coach that's there to help you,
is really doing it in an appropriate way.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
First, it is difficult.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Most people don't want to Most people don't want to
be a pool. By the way, is an uncomfortable position
to give the gift of truth because the person that
you're giving it to is going to be resistant to it.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
So the first thing that I tell everyone is you
need to find someone who cares more about you than
they do themselves. If if that's the groundwork, then that works.
They also have to be wise enough to know how
to communicate with you in a way that doesn't create
additional resistance. There's built in defensiveness when someone tells us
(27:30):
we're wrong, So they've got to want to do that.
But they have to care enough about you to be
willing to do this hard thing. That's why doing it
with friends extraordinarily difficult. I believe why the friendship is
at risk. If you tell someone something they don't want
to hear, may very well damage the friendship. That's why
(27:52):
I look at coaches and I look at mentors as
the place to go to find that person who cares
enough about you but also cares enough to tell you
the truth. That's too different caring. And by the way,
you mentioned something, why don't people want to do this first?
They may in the business world, people don't want to
(28:15):
be your fool because they're after something from you that.
They don't want you to be different. They want you
to stay the same. So yeah, and they'll feed that
ego and develop that echo chamber, so you have no
desire to do anything other than listen to them tell
you how great you are. So that's why coaches and
why mentors have so much value in the leadership process. Also,
(28:39):
I love peer groups. I think the peer groups provide
an opportunity, if they're appropriately put together, to have that
psychological safety to tell someone the truth about a situation.
But that requires a lot of honesty in a group setting.
So there's a limitation to that. So back to the coaching,
I look at coaching as okay.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
So so so here here's the other question. I have
you know, the whole concept that you you are the
average of the five people that you surround yourself with.
And again, as you're looking about talking to coaches, and
believe me, I I understand how this works because I've
seen a lot of coaches that I'm going, oh my goodness, okay,
(29:23):
And so how do you how do you determine that
that individual? Do you need to look at their lives
and because if they're if they're in the same boat
you are, then you know and quite frankly, a lot
of the times our friends are in the same boat
we are, and they are the worst people to be
our fool and if they are that, they are we're
(29:46):
very foolish. So so what what do you do? How
do you how do you determine someone is going to
really be a good mentor a good coach for you?
Are are there some red flags versus green flags that
you can share with the audience as they think about
maybe doing this for themselves and finding someone that they
(30:08):
can ask about and question in order to really make
sure that they're getting someone a value, or as they
start the process, are there some red flags that might
come up that they can say, you know what, I
don't think this is the right fool for me.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, first I tell everyone I'm not a life coach,
and so I'll tell you the basis for my coaching
is a client of mind gave me a testimonial. He said,
Paul is a shirpum. He will get you to the mountaintop,
but he will not carry your pack. And to me,
that's what you're looking for in a coach. If you
(30:44):
want a coach to carry your pack and they agree
to do it, that's not the person that will help
you for transformation. So when you look at someone, they
have to be hard enough to tell you what's wrong,
to give you the gift of truth, then help you
create that action plan, whatever that may be. It's got
to me that the concept of helping someone change is
(31:08):
you can't just talk about it. You actually have to
put together a plan. So they can do it, and
then you become their accountability buddy. Your obligation is to
make sure that when they say they're going to do something,
they do it. And if they don't, then you have
that serious conversation about is this process working? And am
I the person for you if it's not?
Speaker 4 (31:30):
And how important? How important is it you talk about
making that plan? How important is it for the individual
to make the plan rather than the coach.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Absolutely, I can't. I can't tell you what you want?
Why why would I want to do that? I can
tell you at some point if what you want has value,
so we can have that discussion. And by the way,
I don't believe the coaching is for the small things.
If all you want someone to make you a better speaker,
well you can find a speaking coach for that. But
(32:03):
that's something that I don't look at as being a
part of what I want to do. I want it
to be meaningful for myself. I want to feel some
satisfaction out of helping someone along their journey of transformation.
By the way, coaching, to me a leader is about legacy.
You can't just coach for today. You should be coaching
for the legacy of this person. This requires that deeper
(32:24):
introspection about who they are and what they're accomplishing, and
that action plan has got to be moving them forward.
I find we do an awful lot of naval gazing gazing,
and I don't see it as being beneficial. If you
enter into a coaching relationship, you've got to be willing
to do the hard work, but the coach has also
(32:46):
got to be willing to hold you accountable for doing
the hard work. And that dynamic has got to be
there in every conversation. You have a conversation where nothing
is happening, where you're not moving forward, where you're not
taking an action that's beneficial.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Well, and how often do you find, as you're working
with these leaders that you make a suggestion, you tell
them the truth, and what's the percentage of them that say, oh,
okay versus you know you're full of it?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Well, first, eighty percent of the people that are referred
to me don't do business with me. I don't. So
I've got a twenty percent of the people who referred
become clients. And I'm absolutely okay with that, because it
is hard work if you're going to transform people. And
by the way, we've got ourselves caught up and how
easy life is supposed to be. And if I say
(33:35):
I want to do it, then that's like doing it. No,
this is a hardcore thing. And I use my own
example of it took me four years after I had
decided that I needed to change to be able to
transform where I felt I was different. You said it rewiring.
Reframing had to take place, and it takes place slowly.
(33:55):
Both success and failure rewires our brain. And therefore we've
got to be aware of that. We've got to be
able to take action so it doesn't derail us. So
again it's a concept of first you got to feel it.
And I know that sounds that sounds like Nave unclazy.
I think that I pretty quickly can find out I've
got a pretty good bullshit antenna, and so I can
(34:17):
tell what somebody's prepared to do the hard work. And
I don't engage in the relationship until I feel it.
That's certain, and if I don't feel it, I'm not
going to do it. The same thing on the other side,
if you're looking for someone who is just going to
placate you and support your bad habits, they're all over
the place. You don't need a coach for that. You
need to have someone who's serious about your transformation and
(34:40):
you have to be serious about it. It's a it's reciprocity.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Well, and that's so true. And like I say, I
have one friend that I work with just because he's
my friend, and every time we talk, I'm saying, look,
this could ruin our friendship. Are you okay with that?
It's like, yes, is it okay? So anyway, but you know,
you use the word failure, and I think that that's
an area that I'd love to chat about real quick,
(35:06):
because so often we, you know, we fail, and that
brings about a sense of guilt, of shame, of all
those type of things, and you know, and re emphasizes
the imposter syndrome if we happen to have that, which
for the audience means that you never really believe you're
good enough and can be successful, even though it may
(35:26):
appear that you are. So when we talk about failure,
how do we reframe that into something that is positive
that we can express gratitude for rather than the opposite.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Well, I you know, I I do courses on failure
because I tell people I'm a subject matter expert. I
have absolutely failed to the degree that most people fortunately
aren't going to. The recovery process from that is based
on reframing failure as lessons to learn, because every failure
(36:01):
truly has a lesson to teach us. First, we have
to accept the responsibility for it. That's one of the
big things. And the reason that it's a big thing
is most of the time when we fail, we're trying
to escape it. We want to ignore it, we want
to move on from it. We don't want to examine it.
And by the way, I don't believe in embracing failure.
I hate the concept of failure. I hate to fail,
(36:23):
but I understand its importance. And so when we understand
the importance and we reframe it as a lesson to learn,
we turn it into a positive. You know what Thomas
Edison said, I haven't failed ten thousand times. I've just
found nine hundred nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine
ways that it doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Does it work? Yeah, you can't.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
In Winston church yarll, success is stumbling from failure to
failure and not losing your enthusiasm. That's truly where we're
at with this First, you are going to fail. It
is inevitable. I truly believe it's fifty percenter of our life.
The question is are you going to do something with
the experience. I did something with the experience. I tell
(37:06):
every leader when you fail, it teaches you a couple
of things. First, there is a lesson to laurn, so
you don't do it again. Second, it teaches you humility
and escaping hubris is a great thing for a successful person.
Otherwise it will cause you to It will cause you
to fail harder than anything else.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
Okay, Yeah, And as you talk about the leaders, let's
talk about individuals. We all experience failures in our lives.
And that's kind of the same concept, isn't it That
if we after those failures and can sit back and say, Okay,
what am I going to learn from this and do
that with a sense of humility and a sense of
(37:48):
gratitude and allow the ego to be pushed aside, that
then we start to learn, and therefore we start to
not make those same mistakes.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Well, and you're yes, and believe me when I talk
about my failure, not only did I fail as a professional,
I fail as a father. I fail as a husband.
I mean, I just failed across There is nothing I
didn't fail at in my life at that point in time.
And yes, you do have to come out of that
and go, okay, how about first, I'd have to be
(38:19):
willing to accept a different perspective, a different point of view,
and I have to make sure that the person my wife,
had the psychological safety to do that. So you frame it,
You put together a structure that allows those conversations to
take place, because without the feedback from the other people
that have been impacted by the failure, you're not going
(38:42):
to be able to do something different, You're not going
to learn the lesson. That feedback is so important, once again,
the gift of truth. So no, it's your ability to say,
I accept responsibility for my part in this failure, whether
it be personal or professional, and I am going to
make sure that the people that I have impacted are
(39:04):
in the process of allowing me to learn the lesson.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
And that's wonderful. And you know what, I think you
hit a show on the head that communication to those
that have been affected, the communication of being able to
honestly take responsibility and say, hey, you know, if you
happen to have an argument with your spouse or whatever.
It's like, Hey, you know, I learned this and I
thought it was funny because when I was going through
some coaching certifications, one of the comments that was made was,
(39:30):
you know, this is something that if you ever get
in an argument with your with your spouse, you should
be able to say. But don't you dare ever say it,
or you're going to really get in trouble. And that
was honey, what emotion came up in your mind when
this happened. But the point is is that if we
(39:53):
do that for ourselves and say, you know what, I
just got angry, but what caused that emotion to come up?
And me what was that anger emotion and what triggered that?
And if we take responsibility for that and to start
to communicate that, all of a sudden, those relationships change
in a very positive way.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yes, you're yes, they do. And what you just said
is absolutely true. And by the way, once again you
mentioned the trigger right. Whenever you overreact to something there's
a reason. Rather than ignore the reason, explore the reason,
find out what it was, and you can do that
through someone else. You say, hey, I know how I
(40:35):
just sounded to you. Tell me, let's discuss that. Let's
have an exchange of why that happened, because I truly
don't want to do it again. You see, we also
have to be willing to say I'm trying not to
do this. You know how much graverification you get out
of being angry with someone. You get to turn around
and walk away and you just feel like, oh my god,
(40:57):
that was a good thing. It's not a good thing.
You ruined a relationship, right, And.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
You know, one of the things that came up in
one of my discussions was, you know how how keia
would be to step outside of yourself and really, now
you're getting into that mindfulness, into that consciousness of stepping
outside and said, okay, Doug, you know I'm over here
talking to me and saying why why did you get triggered?
(41:24):
Was what was the trigger that did that? And if
you can step outside of yourself without any emotion and
start to have that discussion with yourself, all of a sudden,
you start to really gain insights into what's going on.
And I think that's so important. So as we close today,
can you believe that time has already gone by? I'm
sitting here looking to the timer going, Oh, my goodness,
(41:47):
But what would be a message that you'd like to
share with the audience.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Well, I think we've pretty much had the message throughout
this conversation. You've been very good at making sure that
I've been able to deliver my message. You're responsible for yourself.
Don't try to give that responsibility to someone else. We
often do that. We want someone else to be responsible
for who we are, where we're going, the journey we're on.
(42:11):
Don't do that, And you've mentioned it without saying the words.
Become self aware. Take the time to know yourself. This
is a difficult journey, but you can do this and
find someone that you trust and that cares about you
so that you're able to have discussions like we're having
that will give you the information you need to transform.
(42:35):
The concept of transformation is a lifelong journey. It's never
over if it's over your dead. So think about the
transformation that you want, think about the legacy you want
to leave, and start to structure your own path. Someone said,
if you think you know the path you're on, you're
on the wrong path.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
All right, Well that's insightful. Thank you for that. That
was a great message. That is a great message. So
how do people find you? Or maybe once more important,
depending on what you'd like, how do people find your
ted Talk? Which which do you think would be most
important for the audience today?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
I would tell you to go to the ted talk seriously.
The TEDx is where my message was given with as
much emotion as I could muster, and it is it
explains everything we talked about in a different perspective. And
by the way, the last, the last remark of my
ted talk is if you don't think first. I believe
(43:34):
that if you have a pool, you have to become
a pool, and if you're not willing to do that,
then you don't understand the value of having a fool.
Speaker 4 (43:44):
Yes, so yeah, I love that. So what do people
google in order to find your ted Talk?
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Ball Glover, ted X and Paul Glover? What Ball Glover
and his and tedxx All Glover will take you right
to it? Great?
Speaker 4 (44:02):
All right, well, Paul, thank you. This has been fascinating.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Doctor Doug. I so much appreciate top for you to
talk to you. It's been It's been invigorating. I love
the conversation and I love the opportunity to be in
front of your audience. Everyone have a blessed day.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Well, and thank you so much, and folks, thank you
for listening. I hope you're getting some insights on this.
And like I said, I watched the Ted Talks. It's fascinating,
So get there and watch his TEDx talk because I
think it'll give you some great insights. So anyway, this
is doctor Doug saying thank you so much and no
mistay
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, or any advice.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You should seek the services.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
At the end of the day, it's not about what
you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what
you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,
who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.
Denzel Welshon, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is
to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you
to see.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Paul Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Thank you, doctor Doug. I appreciate being here.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Well, I'm looking forward to this. You know, I had
a chance to listen to your ted X talk and
it was really fascinating and you obviously went into some
interesting topics. But what I'd love for you to do
is share with the audience kind of your background and
I know that will bring up the whole story to
a little degree, and then we'll get into that maybe
a little bit further. But if you could do that,
(01:14):
I know you do a lot of different things, and
if you could share with the audience what was your
journey that brought you to this point, I think that
would be interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Absolutely well. For thirty years, I was a practicing federal
trial attorney in the city of Chicago, practicing labor and
employment law. I took a detour. I became a convicted felon,
spent five and a half years in a federal prison,
got out, and because I could no longer practice law,
(01:46):
I decided I was going to take my life experiences,
including the concept of surviving, of failure and recovering, and
turning it into a coaching platform. I've been an executive
coach since two thousand and one. I now have a
national coaching practice. My largest client's billion dollar privately held company.
(02:10):
That's my trajectory. In about thirty seconds, it covers seventy years.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Okay, So as you work with these large companies, what's
your main focus with them or is it kind of
in general? I know when I was working with very
small companies as a consultant. I was finding that I'm
really focusing on the organizational aspects of it and kind
of going through a whole process of marketing and all
of that type of thing. What's your focus with those companies?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, I bill myself as the NOBS workplace performance coach.
I work with the executive suite, and it's all about
improving leadership of the leaders. I actually my tagline is
challenging the best to become better, and I work exclusively
in taking those leadership skill sets and making them much better.
(03:02):
That's it in a nutshell. I wish it was more complicated,
but it's not. I take my experience plus the experience
of being a coach now for thirty years, and I
turned that into some valuable actionable input.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Okay, And you know what I find fascinating as I
worked with individuals, and like I say, not to the
degree that you do by any stretch of the imagination,
but while I was doing that, what I found was
there so often that whatever skills you were teaching business
wise were literally skills that they needed in their own lives.
(03:37):
Because each one of us really needs to be a
leader in our own life. Is that not true?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Oh? Absolutely? The concept of trying to By the way,
this is a new concept. I absolutely agree with you.
But leadership prior to the pandemic, especially was compartmentalized. You
left your personal life at home. Leaders did not like
the concept of sharing. They didn't want to be vulnerable,
(04:03):
they didn't want to be authentic. They felt that that
made them look weak and ineffective. The pandemic changed that
people stopped being willing to accept this division of your
one thing outside of work and you're another thing at work.
You're not. You're a holistic person. You bring that bagage
(04:23):
wherever it may be to the workplace, but you also
take it home with you. So yeah, you're actually you're
spot on with us. My context of coaching is about
their life, not just about their work.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Okay. And you know, I listened to your ted X talk,
as I mentioned, and and you talk about the fact
that everybody needs a fool in their life. And we're
going to get into that, Okay, but that's going to
be maybe near the end of what we're going to
talk about today, because one of the things I want
to talk to you about, because you had mentioned them,
is these blind spots that we have and briggers that
(05:00):
activate them. I in fact, I found a quote that
I found interesting and I want to share it with
you with the audience because I think it's pertinent to
what we're going to talk about. Is from Carljng and
what he says is, until you make the unconscious conscious,
it will direct your life and you will call it
fate and yeah, spot on. And what I find is
(05:24):
that so often we don't realize that our literal experience
in life is a result of that unconscious subconscious, those
those triggers, those blind spots as you refer to them.
And so I'm going to ask you a very transparent question.
You were You were an attorney in Chicago. By the way,
I grew up in Chicago, so I love Chicago. But
(05:46):
you were an attorney in Chicago you ended up going
to prison.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Why? Ego?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Ego?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yes, and let me tell you that ego was my
blind spot. I think it is the blind spot for many.
And yes, my ego led me to believe that I
was tell you I was, I was the smartest guy
in the room. There was never any room that I
was in that I didn't truly believe that I was
extraordinarily successful as an attorney and a smart guy, but
(06:17):
stupid when it comes to relationships. And because of that
ego and the desire to belong. I came from a
broken home and I strived to find stability in my life,
but I also needed acceptance. I always felt like I
was an outcast. I was a loaner. I did not
(06:38):
join groups, and the clientele that I represented was morally reprehensible. However,
I was fascinated by them, and they really wanted me
to join their group, because having a smart lawyer to
defend you when you commit a crime is a plus.
(06:59):
And I wanted that group. I wanted to belong and
they gave me the opportunity. But there's initiation fee to
belong to any group, and that initiation fee was obviously
to commit those morally reprehensible tasks, the things that you did,
and I did that with I did that willfully. I
(07:20):
don't I make no bumps about it. I absolutely deserve
to go to prison. However, so those two blind spots
for me, the ego and the need to belong, allowed
me to be triggered by the way people recognize your
blind spots even though you don't.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
And then if they're not good. They'll take advantage of them.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Absolutely, they'll manipulate you by pressing triggering those blind spots.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Okay, So one of the things that I've observed in
myself as well as others, and as we've talked on
these podcasts for years now about this topic, is fascinating
that we literally create our life, We literally create our experiences,
and oftentimes we don't realize initially at least that those
(08:07):
experiences are a result of those limiting beliefs that we
have a subconscious type of things. Oftentimes it's not even conscious.
Oftentimes it's actually built in our DNA, and we don't
realize that the epigenetics of that is causing us to
do certain things. But my question for you, and you
had mentioned a little bit of it, but let's let's
(08:29):
do a deep dive, because I think for the audience
it would be really fascinating for them to understand what
you discovered in a deep way about your previous life
as a child and your subconscious imprints, and you call
them blind spots that triggered you to do the things
that you did that ultimately now you are very sorry
(08:54):
that you did, and obviously you have changed your life
but what were those things talked about needing to be accepted?
Were there others that you wanted to be a part
of a group? What was it that actually literally caused
you to make those decisions and at the time feel
like it was okay.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Well, first, just you're correct about these mind spots are
with us from birth. They they're there. We don't see them,
but we also can't get rid of them. It does
not matter how hard we try, they continue to exist.
It is our ability to recognize them and exert control.
(09:36):
So at the time, because first overconfident, very successful, ego
driven one and more, by the way, trial trial lawyers
are adrenaline junkies. You know you're not a trial lawyer
if you don't enjoy the high and I did. My
problem was between trials when I wasn't actually in front
(09:57):
of the jury and in court in front of the
jumb engaged in that verbal combat with a worthy opponent.
I was bored. I didn't like that, and I saw it.
I sought out adrenaline inducing opportunities. And by the way,
this group that I speak of, my client base, offered
me that they offered me acceptance, They offered me the
(10:20):
adrenaline high. They offered me the ego stroking that I craved.
I needed to be told that I was good. I
needed to be told I was exceptional. This came from again,
I go back to my childhood. A broken home leaves
that indelible impact on you. You never feel like you're
completely first, You feel like you may have caused it.
(10:43):
You don't know why adults do what they do as
a kid, so you make those assumptions. And I assumed
that it was something that I did. I never found
that out, obviously because it wasn't true. But it didn't
mean I didn't believe it. I did believe it. And
because of that, I was always offering from imposter syndrome.
Even though I would tell you I was the smartest
(11:04):
guy in the room, I was never sure that that
level of doubt continues to permeate every action that I took.
So I craved that. I craved all of the stuff
that I got from people who realized my blind spots
and decided to take advantage of them.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Well, and you know that's true, and unfortunately you know
whether it's people. And like I said, I grew up
in Chicago, so I get what you're talking about. But
you know, people that are not necessarily good will obviously
identify those type of things and take advantage of those.
There are others that will take advantage of situations that
(11:46):
will empower them. For instance, when you get into abuse,
whether it's physical or mental or emotional, whatever that happens
to be. So often people find themselves continually in those
same relationships because they've never been able to figure out
internally and subconsciously what they were, what was really going on,
(12:07):
what was causing that type of thing. Now I want
to disagree with you on one thing, and okay, and
it may be worth thinking the same thing, and there
is no disagreement. But my belief system, and as I've
studied it, what I find is that there literally is
a way to change neural pathways. So do we ever
(12:28):
totally overcome those imprints and get them wipe from a memory.
Absolutely not. But I believe that as we consciously, with
a mindset and emotional intelligence, start to observe what's going
on and literally allow ourselves to recognize reframe those because
(12:49):
as you say, it's really perception from childhood all the time,
or at least a lot of the time, and be
able to change the neural pathways to where you don't
totally eliminate the neural pathways, but you've moved to the side,
to the point that if you were really in a
conscious situation, when those emotions start to come up, you
immediately moved them to the side because you're now more
(13:09):
conscious and you've created a stronger nearrow pathway. What are
your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
No, first, I don't disagree with you at all. I
think that for most of us it is extraordinarily difficult
for us to do that on our own. That's why
we'll talk about the concept of the pool. That's my crunching.
But let me tell you that the seminal event that
allowed me the opportunity to do exactly what you say
(13:35):
was going to prison. If I had not gone to
prison first, I wouldn't have survived. I would have been
dead long ago. That experience forced me to understand these
blind spots, and with the help of a support system,
I did exactly what you said. I started to change
the way I looked at my life and how I behaved,
(13:57):
but only under that amount of direct It took me
going to prison. And let me tell you how wrong
we embedded these are I stood in front of a
judge who was getting ready to sentence me to seven
years of incarceration and two things. First, I had practiced
in front of this judge, and the judge said, as
he prepared the sentence me, you're one of the few
(14:17):
people that I wish I could give more time to,
but he couldn't under the sentencing guidelines. And he offered
me an opportunity. He said, I'm going to reduce your
sentence by twenty percent if you do only two things. First,
I'd already been found guilty. It was my second trial.
I'd been found guilty in the second trial. I was
(14:37):
going to go to prison. Yeah, there was no way
around this. He said, you must accept responsibility for what
you did, and you must agree to cooperate with the
prosecuting attorney to concerning those people that committed the crimes
with you. Now, listen, is a no brainer, isn't it?
A twenty percent reduction in prison time? Lets me go
(14:59):
home a year year and a half early. And I
said no, and.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
You probably would have been killed in prison. Maybe let's
be honest.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
By the way, I have to admit I had an
insurance package that we don't need to talk about that.
I don't think that would have happened. Second, you could
be very selective about information. But the reality was that
I didn't do that out of fear, I tell you truthfully.
I did it out of the the need to still
be a part of this group that would have that
could cut me loose in a heartbeat. Right, there is
(15:34):
no honor among thieves. And if you think that someone
is going to support you when you get in trouble,
you're wrong. They run away from you. But that's how
strongly embedded my needs were, my blind spots were. It
took going to prison, and it took two years of
incarceration before I started to understand the need to do
exactly what you said, reframe my life and start to
(15:59):
have this this opportunity to see it differently but also
to behave differently based on this different perception.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Well, and you know, you talk about something fascinating. So
this is nothing I thought we were going to talk about.
But let's talk about prison for a minute, because you know,
so often people come out of prison as convicted whatever,
and they have a real struggle in their lives to
be able to you know, generate income, to be able
to get a decent job and so forth. Obviously that
(16:28):
didn't happen to you. But my question is this, and
I think it may be important for the audience to
understand if this is what happened in prison, did they
offer you some coaching, Did they offer you anything for
you to be able to finally get into where you
were able to analyze what was going on as you
were talking about or was that all on your own
(16:49):
by just reading and doing those things.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
The prison is not about rehabilitation, it's warehousing. No, they
don't offer any opportunities to change your life. Prison. It's
just not what it's The system is not structured that way.
So no, I did this on my own, and I'll
tell you. I'll tell you this seminal moment. I spent
the first two years of incarceration engaged in revenge fantasy.
(17:12):
I was going to get even with everyone who put
me in prison. I accepted no responsibility for having myself,
destroying my life, leaving my family destitute, and spending five
and a half years, at age fifty in prison. The
thing that the thing that happened was at the end
of year two men that I had seen in prison
(17:35):
when I got there, started and got and been released
started to come back, and that shocked me, and I
suddenly realized that if I did not put in the
effort to change who I was and how I behaved,
how I thought that I was going to be a
career criminal, that was going to be made. I was
going to lose my family and continue to get out,
(17:57):
commit the same crimes, maybe the different fashion, and returned
to prison. That shock started me on this transformation journey.
But no, prison doesn't do any of that for you.
I'll let me relate to anecdotes. Because I was never
of service. It was never a part of my life
to be of service to anyone except myself. Until I
(18:20):
went to prison and my wife and I reached a compact.
I had asked her to become my fool, the person
who would help me transform, and she said no. She said,
I know you, I love you, but I know that
if I say something you need to change or that
you're wrong, We're going to end up in a debate.
She said, I'm not going to drive five and a
(18:41):
half hours one weekend a month to spend two days
with you and fight, so I'm not interested. Shocked me.
I was like, oh my god, it's a person who
loves me the most, and they're not going to help me.
I said that I need to do this, and she said,
so she loved. Thirty days later, she comes back and
we had this discussion and I said, okay, let's talk
(19:02):
about how we can make this work, because I have
to do this. If I can't do this, I can't
do it on my own. And she said, all right,
I'll tell you what the rules are. She said, every month,
the last hour of our visit, I'm going to give
you three things you need to work on, and when
I come back a month later, you better tell me
what you've done to work on them. She said. The
first time you don't do that, I'm done so with
(19:24):
that force, and I mean it killed me to hear that,
because at the end of every visiting session for four
four years after that, the last half hour she would,
by the way, she never she never lacked for things
to tell me I needed to change.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
So I can't.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Imagine, oh, yeah, I I destroyed her life. I mean, seriously,
if the fact that she stayed with me is crazy,
she and she would give me the three things, and
all I could say was.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Thank you, Yeah, let me let me ask you this
question because you know, you talk in general about after
two years you decided you needed to really do that.
What caused the AHA moments for you to suddenly sit
back and say, you know what, I've got to change
or my life will never change and I'll be back
here again in a number of years. What was that
(20:14):
AHA moment for you? Because what I find so often
is people go through lives and many of them never
have an AHA moment. They just continue on and continue on,
whereas other people something happens that gives them that AHA
moment that says, you know it, I've got to do
this introspective work. What was it for you?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
First, I'm going to disagree with you. Everybody has an
AHA moment, you just choose to ignore.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
It, right, Okay, you're right, you're right.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Well yeah and so so yeah, and again. I saw
guys start to come back to prison, and it just
was it was like, oh my god, that was it.
That was the lightning bolt that shocked me up. Until
that time, it had never occurred to me that people
would ever come back. Don't you learn your lesson? So
(21:00):
at that point I realized that I was not learning
my lesson. That I was exactly like them. And again
self esteem came into this because I was in prison
thinking I'm an educated guy, I've got the every opportunity
when I get out, And then I certainly realized probably not.
If I'm not different, life will not be different from me.
(21:20):
Why would it be. This was just an interlude. If
I didn't do something about it, it would just be
a repeat. So that was it, And you know, I
wish I could tell you that was a specific thing,
but it just was suddenly realizing and being shocked by
the fact that people would come back to this place
that I was find so hard to get out of.
(21:41):
It just realization, you know, and and I wish again
nothing else. The interesting thing was when I talked to
my wife, that was that was That was actually when
you want the aha moment when she said she was
not going to help me. That you're a spot on. Yes,
The aha moment was not this realization about what I
(22:02):
needed to do. It was the realization that the person
who loved me the most was not going to help
me to do it. And that was the turning.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Point because of who you were as far as she
understood up to that point. Absolutely, yeah, which I find me.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
So you talk about fool, and you defined it very
well in your ted X talk. But I like for
you now, because we're going to talk about this, you
say you need a fool in your life, talk a
little bit about the background of that, because most people,
I'm sure are not going to get it.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Nobody gives it. Let's that's why I was a But
I started trying to pitch this Beepore are like, You've
got to change the title. It's not no one's going
to understand any No, I'm I'm a reader. But in prison,
I was a voracious reader. Right, there's so much time,
and I read about the concept of the medieval king
(22:55):
who was appointed by God, and the concept of the
fool that was the counterbalance to infallibility. The deal was
that the king, because he was appointed by God, was infallible.
Anyone who challenged the king his behavior, his actions committed
committed treason and would have their head cut off. However,
(23:16):
the exception to that was the fool. Now, when we
see the fool in a picture or in a movie,
we look at him as an entertainer sitting at the
foot of the throne. They're dressed up in that weird garb.
They jump up and they sing a song, they tell
a joke. That wasn't the function of the fool. The
function of the fool was because they were viewed as
being crazy, they had the psychological safety to tell the
(23:40):
king they were wrong. So the fool actually was a
trusted advisor to the king, which was that counterbalance to
absolute power. I loved that concept. I read it and
I said, you know, first I said, ego, I'm the king, right,
I didn't say I was. I said, I'm the king.
(24:01):
I need to find the fool, all right. So the
concept was at was backwards at the beginning. But as
I worked my way through this concept with my wife,
who was my fool, became my fool and gave me
the gift of truth. And I look at coaching as
(24:21):
a calling because of my experience. I bought that with
me and I developed a coaching process based on my
being a leader's fool. So many leaders live in echo chambers.
They only hear how good they are. The psychological safety
we talk about it a lot, right, the safety and
(24:42):
the freedom to tell someone the truth. Well, we love
to think that that exists in our organizations, but it doesn't.
People are afraid to tell leaders the truth they know
something bad will happen to them, or they're afraid of will.
So as an independent contractor a coach, I said, well,
that's my job. I will tell leaders the truth. And
(25:05):
that's been the basis for coaching. So that's the process
and the concept of the pool. And I believe my
Ted Talks says it, everyone needs a pool in their life.
If you don't have someone to tell you the truth
about you, you will never be able to overcome those
blind spots, even recognize them, avoid those triggers and start
(25:26):
to reach your full potential as a human being.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Well, and you know, I believe that's true. And whether
we call them coaches or you know, if the psychologists
or whatever you want to call them, or you know,
your personal full But here's my question. Obviously, quite frankly,
you were very fortunate that your wife, ultimately, when she
decided to do that, had the ability to do that.
(25:52):
I've worked with some people just kind of more as
a friend than anything else, and I know sometimes that's
where you get your fools. But as I've worked with
a few people, and one that comes to my mind
particularly they also have other friends that literally, in my opinion,
in my professional opinion, are leading them the wrong way
(26:15):
and are supporting them in their idiocy and not really
and in their ego and all of those type of things,
rather than telling them the truth, maybe because they don't
know the truth, or number two, because they don't really
have the courage to tell the truth because they're afraid
that it might ruin the friendship or whatever. So as
(26:36):
you talk about finding that fool in your life, how
important is it and what guidelines do you need to
use in order to make sure that whoever that is,
that's your fool, that's your coach that's there to help you,
is really doing it in an appropriate way.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
First, it is difficult.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Most people don't want to Most people don't want to
be a pool. By the way, is an uncomfortable position
to give the gift of truth because the person that
you're giving it to is going to be resistant to it.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
So the first thing that I tell everyone is you
need to find someone who cares more about you than
they do themselves. If if that's the groundwork, then that works.
They also have to be wise enough to know how
to communicate with you in a way that doesn't create
additional resistance. There's built in defensiveness when someone tells us
(27:30):
we're wrong, So they've got to want to do that.
But they have to care enough about you to be
willing to do this hard thing. That's why doing it
with friends extraordinarily difficult. I believe why the friendship is
at risk. If you tell someone something they don't want
to hear, may very well damage the friendship. That's why
(27:52):
I look at coaches and I look at mentors as
the place to go to find that person who cares
enough about you but also cares enough to tell you
the truth. That's too different caring. And by the way,
you mentioned something, why don't people want to do this first?
They may in the business world, people don't want to
(28:15):
be your fool because they're after something from you that.
They don't want you to be different. They want you
to stay the same. So yeah, and they'll feed that
ego and develop that echo chamber, so you have no
desire to do anything other than listen to them tell
you how great you are. So that's why coaches and
why mentors have so much value in the leadership process. Also,
(28:39):
I love peer groups. I think the peer groups provide
an opportunity, if they're appropriately put together, to have that
psychological safety to tell someone the truth about a situation.
But that requires a lot of honesty in a group setting.
So there's a limitation to that. So back to the coaching,
I look at coaching as okay.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
So so so here here's the other question. I have
you know, the whole concept that you you are the
average of the five people that you surround yourself with.
And again, as you're looking about talking to coaches, and
believe me, I I understand how this works because I've
seen a lot of coaches that I'm going, oh my goodness, okay,
(29:23):
And so how do you how do you determine that
that individual? Do you need to look at their lives
and because if they're if they're in the same boat
you are, then you know and quite frankly, a lot
of the times our friends are in the same boat
we are, and they are the worst people to be
our fool and if they are that, they are we're
(29:46):
very foolish. So so what what do you do? How
do you how do you determine someone is going to
really be a good mentor a good coach for you?
Are are there some red flags versus green flags that
you can share with the audience as they think about
maybe doing this for themselves and finding someone that they
(30:08):
can ask about and question in order to really make
sure that they're getting someone a value, or as they
start the process, are there some red flags that might
come up that they can say, you know what, I
don't think this is the right fool for me.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, first I tell everyone I'm not a life coach,
and so I'll tell you the basis for my coaching
is a client of mind gave me a testimonial. He said,
Paul is a shirpum. He will get you to the mountaintop,
but he will not carry your pack. And to me,
that's what you're looking for in a coach. If you
(30:44):
want a coach to carry your pack and they agree
to do it, that's not the person that will help
you for transformation. So when you look at someone, they
have to be hard enough to tell you what's wrong,
to give you the gift of truth, then help you
create that action plan, whatever that may be. It's got
to me that the concept of helping someone change is
(31:08):
you can't just talk about it. You actually have to
put together a plan. So they can do it, and
then you become their accountability buddy. Your obligation is to
make sure that when they say they're going to do something,
they do it. And if they don't, then you have
that serious conversation about is this process working? And am
I the person for you if it's not?
Speaker 4 (31:30):
And how important? How important is it you talk about
making that plan? How important is it for the individual
to make the plan rather than the coach.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Absolutely, I can't. I can't tell you what you want?
Why why would I want to do that? I can
tell you at some point if what you want has value,
so we can have that discussion. And by the way,
I don't believe the coaching is for the small things.
If all you want someone to make you a better speaker,
well you can find a speaking coach for that. But
(32:03):
that's something that I don't look at as being a
part of what I want to do. I want it
to be meaningful for myself. I want to feel some
satisfaction out of helping someone along their journey of transformation.
By the way, coaching, to me a leader is about legacy.
You can't just coach for today. You should be coaching
for the legacy of this person. This requires that deeper
(32:24):
introspection about who they are and what they're accomplishing, and
that action plan has got to be moving them forward.
I find we do an awful lot of naval gazing gazing,
and I don't see it as being beneficial. If you
enter into a coaching relationship, you've got to be willing
to do the hard work, but the coach has also
(32:46):
got to be willing to hold you accountable for doing
the hard work. And that dynamic has got to be
there in every conversation. You have a conversation where nothing
is happening, where you're not moving forward, where you're not
taking an action that's beneficial.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Well, and how often do you find, as you're working
with these leaders that you make a suggestion, you tell
them the truth, and what's the percentage of them that say, oh,
okay versus you know you're full of it?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Well, first, eighty percent of the people that are referred
to me don't do business with me. I don't. So
I've got a twenty percent of the people who referred
become clients. And I'm absolutely okay with that, because it
is hard work if you're going to transform people. And
by the way, we've got ourselves caught up and how
easy life is supposed to be. And if I say
(33:35):
I want to do it, then that's like doing it. No,
this is a hardcore thing. And I use my own
example of it took me four years after I had
decided that I needed to change to be able to
transform where I felt I was different. You said it rewiring.
Reframing had to take place, and it takes place slowly.
(33:55):
Both success and failure rewires our brain. And therefore we've
got to be aware of that. We've got to be
able to take action so it doesn't derail us. So
again it's a concept of first you got to feel it.
And I know that sounds that sounds like Nave unclazy.
I think that I pretty quickly can find out I've
got a pretty good bullshit antenna, and so I can
(34:17):
tell what somebody's prepared to do the hard work. And
I don't engage in the relationship until I feel it.
That's certain, and if I don't feel it, I'm not
going to do it. The same thing on the other side,
if you're looking for someone who is just going to
placate you and support your bad habits, they're all over
the place. You don't need a coach for that. You
need to have someone who's serious about your transformation and
(34:40):
you have to be serious about it. It's a it's reciprocity.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Well, and that's so true. And like I say, I
have one friend that I work with just because he's
my friend, and every time we talk, I'm saying, look,
this could ruin our friendship. Are you okay with that?
It's like, yes, is it okay? So anyway, but you know,
you use the word failure, and I think that that's
an area that I'd love to chat about real quick,
(35:06):
because so often we, you know, we fail, and that
brings about a sense of guilt, of shame, of all
those type of things, and you know, and re emphasizes
the imposter syndrome if we happen to have that, which
for the audience means that you never really believe you're
good enough and can be successful, even though it may
(35:26):
appear that you are. So when we talk about failure,
how do we reframe that into something that is positive
that we can express gratitude for rather than the opposite.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Well, I you know, I I do courses on failure
because I tell people I'm a subject matter expert. I
have absolutely failed to the degree that most people fortunately
aren't going to. The recovery process from that is based
on reframing failure as lessons to learn, because every failure
(36:01):
truly has a lesson to teach us. First, we have
to accept the responsibility for it. That's one of the
big things. And the reason that it's a big thing
is most of the time when we fail, we're trying
to escape it. We want to ignore it, we want
to move on from it. We don't want to examine it.
And by the way, I don't believe in embracing failure.
I hate the concept of failure. I hate to fail,
(36:23):
but I understand its importance. And so when we understand
the importance and we reframe it as a lesson to learn,
we turn it into a positive. You know what Thomas
Edison said, I haven't failed ten thousand times. I've just
found nine hundred nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine
ways that it doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Does it work? Yeah, you can't.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
In Winston church yarll, success is stumbling from failure to
failure and not losing your enthusiasm. That's truly where we're
at with this First, you are going to fail. It
is inevitable. I truly believe it's fifty percenter of our life.
The question is are you going to do something with
the experience. I did something with the experience. I tell
(37:06):
every leader when you fail, it teaches you a couple
of things. First, there is a lesson to laurn, so
you don't do it again. Second, it teaches you humility
and escaping hubris is a great thing for a successful person.
Otherwise it will cause you to It will cause you
to fail harder than anything else.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
Okay, Yeah, And as you talk about the leaders, let's
talk about individuals. We all experience failures in our lives.
And that's kind of the same concept, isn't it That
if we after those failures and can sit back and say, Okay,
what am I going to learn from this and do
that with a sense of humility and a sense of
(37:48):
gratitude and allow the ego to be pushed aside, that
then we start to learn, and therefore we start to
not make those same mistakes.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Well, and you're yes, and believe me when I talk
about my failure, not only did I fail as a professional,
I fail as a father. I fail as a husband.
I mean, I just failed across There is nothing I
didn't fail at in my life at that point in time.
And yes, you do have to come out of that
and go, okay, how about first, I'd have to be
(38:19):
willing to accept a different perspective, a different point of view,
and I have to make sure that the person my wife,
had the psychological safety to do that. So you frame it,
You put together a structure that allows those conversations to
take place, because without the feedback from the other people
that have been impacted by the failure, you're not going
(38:42):
to be able to do something different, You're not going
to learn the lesson. That feedback is so important, once again,
the gift of truth. So no, it's your ability to say,
I accept responsibility for my part in this failure, whether
it be personal or professional, and I am going to
make sure that the people that I have impacted are
(39:04):
in the process of allowing me to learn the lesson.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
And that's wonderful. And you know what, I think you
hit a show on the head that communication to those
that have been affected, the communication of being able to
honestly take responsibility and say, hey, you know, if you
happen to have an argument with your spouse or whatever.
It's like, Hey, you know, I learned this and I
thought it was funny because when I was going through
some coaching certifications, one of the comments that was made was,
(39:30):
you know, this is something that if you ever get
in an argument with your with your spouse, you should
be able to say. But don't you dare ever say it,
or you're going to really get in trouble. And that
was honey, what emotion came up in your mind when
this happened. But the point is is that if we
(39:53):
do that for ourselves and say, you know what, I
just got angry, but what caused that emotion to come up?
And me what was that anger emotion and what triggered that?
And if we take responsibility for that and to start
to communicate that, all of a sudden, those relationships change
in a very positive way.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yes, you're yes, they do. And what you just said
is absolutely true. And by the way, once again you
mentioned the trigger right. Whenever you overreact to something there's
a reason. Rather than ignore the reason, explore the reason,
find out what it was, and you can do that
through someone else. You say, hey, I know how I
(40:35):
just sounded to you. Tell me, let's discuss that. Let's
have an exchange of why that happened, because I truly
don't want to do it again. You see, we also
have to be willing to say I'm trying not to
do this. You know how much graverification you get out
of being angry with someone. You get to turn around
and walk away and you just feel like, oh my god,
(40:57):
that was a good thing. It's not a good thing.
You ruined a relationship, right, And.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
You know, one of the things that came up in
one of my discussions was, you know how how keia
would be to step outside of yourself and really, now
you're getting into that mindfulness, into that consciousness of stepping
outside and said, okay, Doug, you know I'm over here
talking to me and saying why why did you get triggered?
(41:24):
Was what was the trigger that did that? And if
you can step outside of yourself without any emotion and
start to have that discussion with yourself, all of a sudden,
you start to really gain insights into what's going on.
And I think that's so important. So as we close today,
can you believe that time has already gone by? I'm
sitting here looking to the timer going, Oh, my goodness,
(41:47):
But what would be a message that you'd like to
share with the audience.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Well, I think we've pretty much had the message throughout
this conversation. You've been very good at making sure that
I've been able to deliver my message. You're responsible for yourself.
Don't try to give that responsibility to someone else. We
often do that. We want someone else to be responsible
for who we are, where we're going, the journey we're on.
(42:11):
Don't do that, And you've mentioned it without saying the words.
Become self aware. Take the time to know yourself. This
is a difficult journey, but you can do this and
find someone that you trust and that cares about you
so that you're able to have discussions like we're having
that will give you the information you need to transform.
(42:35):
The concept of transformation is a lifelong journey. It's never
over if it's over your dead. So think about the
transformation that you want, think about the legacy you want
to leave, and start to structure your own path. Someone said,
if you think you know the path you're on, you're
on the wrong path.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
All right, Well that's insightful. Thank you for that. That
was a great message. That is a great message. So
how do people find you? Or maybe once more important,
depending on what you'd like, how do people find your
ted Talk? Which which do you think would be most
important for the audience today?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
I would tell you to go to the ted talk seriously.
The TEDx is where my message was given with as
much emotion as I could muster, and it is it
explains everything we talked about in a different perspective. And
by the way, the last, the last remark of my
ted talk is if you don't think first. I believe
(43:34):
that if you have a pool, you have to become
a pool, and if you're not willing to do that,
then you don't understand the value of having a fool.
Speaker 4 (43:44):
Yes, so yeah, I love that. So what do people
google in order to find your ted Talk?
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Ball Glover, ted X and Paul Glover? What Ball Glover
and his and tedxx All Glover will take you right
to it? Great?
Speaker 4 (44:02):
All right, well, Paul, thank you. This has been fascinating.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Doctor Doug. I so much appreciate top for you to
talk to you. It's been It's been invigorating. I love
the conversation and I love the opportunity to be in
front of your audience. Everyone have a blessed day.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Well, and thank you so much, and folks, thank you
for listening. I hope you're getting some insights on this.
And like I said, I watched the Ted Talks. It's fascinating,
So get there and watch his TEDx talk because I
think it'll give you some great insights. So anyway, this
is doctor Doug saying thank you so much and no
mistay
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