November 12, 2025 • 47 mins
Retired Lieutenant Colonel Richard K. Cassem II, US Army, now Senior Army Instructor, provides illuminating clarity on the Proper Use of the Military. This episode is dedicated to the well-being of veterans, fully acknowledges the trauma that many suffer and emphasizes how to find the support veterans need. Host Bahia asks about the role of the National Guard, ICE agents & the struggle soldiers face if asked to follow illegal orders that they should not. Listen to Lt Col Cassem II. It's a must.
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It's Your Voice is broadcast live Wednesdays at 8PM ET Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). It's Your Voice is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
It's Your Voice Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
for choosing W four c Y Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Logic, Let's beach lochic, Let's peak sure in Lotic, Let's
breech in lot, Let's breach o in logic, Let's breech
(00:47):
and logic.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Let's breach of.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Lot. Hello, and welcome to It's Your Voice, the show
that hosts and riching conversations in diversity. My name is
Bihia Yasagn. I'm a core alignment coach and a diversity educator,
and if you're interested in seeing the programs I can
offer to help people align their values and their actions together,
(01:16):
you can find my website at Know what you Want
Coaching dot WordPress dot com. Today we're having an amazing show.
Every year we take time to honor and thank veterans
on or New Your Veterans Day. This year we'll be
having other veterans on later, but I wanted to usually
(01:37):
have a panel, but I wanted to focus this show
on helping clarify issues that a lot of people are
confused about right now, about the proper role of military
branches and service. And again, as we do every year,
express gratitude for the service and sacrifice veterans give, and
(02:00):
also reinforce how much healing and support people who serve
and combat especially deserve when they return home. And before
I introduce our guests, who you will recognize when you've
been following the show, I wanted to again well together,
(02:23):
we dedicate this show to my first cousin, Bobby, and
who is my guests uncle. I just want to read
it to. But first before I read the dedication, let's
let's bring Richard Camille casts the second out please, and
(02:44):
I'm going to rich if I may, I'd like to
read a little bit of your bio, and then well,
thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
It's my privilege.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
And then then I want to let people know what
or to your family member Bobby did in his service.
So Richard Camille Cassim the second is a retired lieutenant
colonel and we call him rich Cassum. He's a retired
infantry officer and the Middle East and North Africa Foreign
Area Officer. His last assignment was Arabian Peninsula Division Chief
(03:18):
for the Joint Staff. In that capacity, he was advisor
to the Chairman of the Joint Staff, General Dunford, and
military policy in the Arabian Peninsula. So that is a
lot right now. You're a senior instructor at a junior
ROTC High school, is that correct?
Speaker 5 (03:38):
That's correct, So thank you be here for having me
on again. I've enjoyed my previous panel sessions and I
have to say it's a privilege and a bit intimidating
to be your only guest the first time. But I
will do my best to provide as much facts and
(04:00):
information as I can to help people understand what's going on.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Thank you, and you always do and thanks for being
willing to let me take up this whole show with
just being able to get some clarity from you. And
you instruct and you teach every day. You have a
very important role and you have so much integrity. I
just really trust you as a resource, you know, reliable information.
(04:25):
So I want and also if I miss anything about
your uncle Bobby, I want to just say why we're
dedicating this show to him. Please add and then we'll
start our conversation. So Bobby was a UH one eight
telicopter pilot who served eighteen months in Vietnam transporting and
(04:46):
extracting US and Vietnamese troops into an out of hot
landing zones. He had extreme amount of courage as he
had to hover while taking heavy enemy fire when the
Distinguished Flying Cross two Bronze Stars for valor and two
Air Medals for Valor. And it's with great sadness that
(05:10):
I share that he it was such a traumatic experience
and just not enough support for people who serve that
he is no longer with us. Bobby suffered so much
he took his own life as his own hands. And
we know he's not alone. And we are also going
to provide a crisis number that our wonderful sound engineer.
(05:34):
There's our banner already. I'm going to just say this number. Now,
anybody who's listening who knows a veteran or who is
a veteran who could use some support. One thing you
can do is you can text eight three eight two
five five. There's online chat available Veterans Crisis Line dot net.
I will I'll say it again at the end. If
(05:54):
you're able to view, you see the number on the
screen one eight hundred two seven three eight two five
five and you can press one. So that's just very
important to just name one resource. So back to you, Well, Casa,
I don't know if you want to add any words
to that.
Speaker 5 (06:14):
Well, I just want to say by way of introduction
that you know, I come from a family where I
have many relatives who served in the military. My brother
and now my nephew are currently on active duty. My
father served, and both of my grandfathers served, and of
(06:39):
course Uncle Bobby, my my father's brother, served And while
we have many happy memories of our military service, you know,
Uncle Bobby is a reminder of what can happen if
soldiers or military people in general return from combat and
(06:59):
don't receive the treatment and the care and the respect
from from their fellow citizens that they deserve. And unfortunately,
as you and I both know, uncle Bobby killed himself
upon his return from Vietnam. You know, he was not
married and had no children, and he just he didn't
(07:21):
have a support structure like my father did. My father
was married, I was born, so he had a wife
and a son. So, you know, please, if if there's
a veteran out there listening who is in crisis, please
call the number or text the number on the the's
scrolling on the screen below. And and even if you're
(07:42):
struggling but aren't in imminent crisis, then I encourage veterans
to connect with their local VFW or American Legion or
some other veterans support group, just to have someone to
share and get information about services that are available two veterans.
(08:06):
So I think that's that's very important. And of course
we would like to prevent any further veterans suicides, veteran
you know, veteran homelessness, any of those issues. And so
I encourage you to reach out if you need help,
and even if you just need a community to be
(08:27):
a part of.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Thank you so much. That was so well poor, so
well put as having communities to make a big difference.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Yes, absolutely, I have been I've been very fortunate to
have been able to work with the VFW for for
several years now. I before I moved to Uniontown, Pennsylvania,
I was the District commander of the Department of Pennsylvania
District twelve for the VFW, and it's there's just so
(08:57):
many resources available that the people don't realize until they
until they reach out and connect. So the VFW, the
American Legions, they have veteran service officers who can help
you get the benefits that you deserve and provide you
with resources if you need it.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
So we hope to.
Speaker 5 (09:23):
See every veteran get all the benefits that they're entitled
to and of course prevent suicides and prevent you help
people recover from from PTSD and other stresses that come
with serving in combat.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Thank you for emphasizing that. I'm so glad you had support.
I just wondered, I know you had your like you said, family,
and I know your Yeah, your grandfather had an honorable discharge.
I think I just found a certificate.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I'm proud.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
I'm proud to say that all of my relatives who
have served were orally discharged.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
So yes, that it is.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Part of the identity of my family, part of my
own identity. I've had many relatives who served honorably in
the military, and I'm proud to be among.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Them, and we're proud of you and all of them. Wow,
I want to look at an outline because there's there's
so many different directions we could go in, but I
appreciate the direction of if you can share what you
(10:35):
think we should know, because, as let's just say, as
an average American referring to myself, there's so much we
don't remember or we didn't learn about even basic civics,
much less what are what are our military branches doing?
There's just too much ignorance, right, and it's it's really,
(10:58):
it's really a surfacing now, So please share with us
what you think it would be important for us to
know about civil control of the military under the Constitution.
I think I see people kind of looking at the
Constitution again these days and the need to exercise command
of the military in a responsible way.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
All right, But I know that some of your students
are listening, and I hope that some of mine are
as well. So, without getting too technical, the framers of
our Constitution were concerned about any one individual wielding too
much power, so they decided that important decisions should belong
(11:46):
it should be important. Decision making was a responsibility of Congress.
Of course, there are hundreds of people in Congress in
two houses, right, the Senate and the House of Representatives,
So Congressional decision making is by design slow and deliberate.
They also understood that some decisions are too cumbersome for
(12:10):
many people to make, so in an emergency, then we
need a single person who can make some decisions. So
they divided up the power and the responsibilities, and they
gave the power to declare war and to conclude peace
to the Congress, and so Congress gets to decide who
(12:32):
our friends and enemies are. They gave command of the
military to the president. So what that means is that
the professionals who fight and win our nation's wars don't
decide who we fight. They don't get to choose who
their enemies are, so they determine how to prosecute the wars.
(12:57):
Under the command of the president means that we don't
have a commander of the army or a commander of
the navy, or a commander of the military. We have
chiefs of staff who coordinate the efforts of the military
under the president. Well, under we have cheess. The staff,
(13:18):
who coordinate their efforts under the Chairman of the Joint Staff,
who provides his best military advice to the President. Now
we call this civilian control of the military. Now, the
President and Congress and the military have to follow certain
rules that are set forth originally by the Constitution and
(13:40):
subsequently by our code of Laws. And we call this
the rule of law. So civilian control of the military
and the rule of law are both suggest the need
for Congress, the President, the Secretary of Defense, the service secretaries,
and the military leadership to exercise man of the military
(14:01):
in a responsible way. For example, Uh, there's a law
known as the pass Cooma Tatis Act, which states that
no regular military force may be used to conduct police
actions against US citizens. Now, it's more complicated than that.
The National Guards are not considered regular military forces. Right,
(14:25):
So national guards are are exempt from that, and in fact,
federal forces have from time to time been uh employed,
uh employed by the president to to conduct civil actions.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
You can think back to.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Integration of black students and white students.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
And so in certain during the civil rights era, this
was uh you know, this began to thisctice became more
common than it had prior to that. So, so I
think those two, those two factors are very important to
to to understand that in the United States we have
(15:17):
civilian control of the military, and the military and our
government both have to follow the rule of law.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
So I think one thing that's confusing about the National
Guard is that it's a national clarify for me.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yes, okay, all right, yet state right.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
So Initially, when the Constitution was written, these militias were
called state militias, and each state had a militia.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Uh. And in fact, the belief was.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
That that a a state militia was necessary to the
existence of a state, and all the states were considered
themselves to be free states. You know, the Constitution conglomerated
these states under a federal government, but each state felt
(16:13):
that it was a free, independent state, and each one had.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Its own militia.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
When we thought the Revolutionary War, the states united their
state militias under the command of General Washington, and they
called it the Continental Army, but it was but each
regiment had its own state affiliation and they were they
(16:38):
were state militias, and they still are to this day,
state militias most commonly. But these state militias now you know,
over time the rules changed and morphed, and now these
state militias can be federalized and used as part of
the regular force. So in the case of the army,
(16:59):
that would be the regular our army and the Army
Reserve and the National Guard can be used to supplement those.
And likewise, sometimes the federal force can be used to
conduct certain civil actions, for example, hurricane relief right things
like that. So it's not as clear cut as you
(17:23):
would think if you just read the Constitution. A good
example would be the Second Amendment to the Constitution, which
says something to the effect of a well regulated militia
being necessary to the function of a free state. The
rights of American citizens to keep in bear arms shall
not be infringed. So the purpose of the Second Amendment,
(17:47):
the reason why Americans were allowed to keep in bear arms,
was so that they could serve in their state militias.
That's changed, yes, I mean that's and I mean it
does say that the the Amendment, which has been upheld
by the Supreme Court, does say that American citizens have
(18:07):
the right to keep in bear arms.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
And so the the determination of the of the Supreme
Court was that even if you don't join your state militia,
you still have the right to keep the bear arms.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Well, let me ask the next question they have We
talked a little bit about the need to care for
soldiers upon their return from combat. You can always add
we can always add more to that, right.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
Well, I mean, clearly this hits home for us because
we both are related to Uncle Bobby uh And and
so we we understand the the need for this. And
as a district commander for the VFW, I have seen
many veterans who who need that support and they don't
(18:58):
as a as a soldier, just as a soldier returning
from combat, you wouldn't necessarily know what kind of treatment
you're entitled to. You might not even realize that you
have symptoms of PTSD or certain mental health stresses that
(19:19):
come with coming home from combat, or even some types
of non combat service. And so it's important to have
a community that can help you recognize that. That might
come in the form of your family, or it might
come in the form of the VFW. The advantage to
(19:42):
the American Legion, the VFW disabled American veterans. There's a
large number of organizations out there. The advantage to these organizations,
is that you're with people who have experienced similar things
and they can help you. If you you're in a
large a large group like that, you're likely to find
somebody who's able to help you. Some of those members
(20:05):
of the Legion and the VFW and the DAV are
specially trained to be service officers and they can lead
you to the people who are able to help. So
they themselves might not be able to provide you with
the help you need, but they can. They can direct
you where you need to go. And then even if
(20:29):
you're not suffering from any PTSD or suicidal thoughts or
anything severe like that, they can help you. They can
help ensure that you're getting the benefits to which you're
entitled because I know, when I retired from the army,
I had some idea what benefits I was entitled to,
(20:49):
but I'm not you know, I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Not a lawyer.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
I didn't know all the benefits. And so these people
specialize in that kind of thing, and they can they
can help direct you to to make sure that you're
have the opportunity at least to take advantage of all
the benefits that you're entitled to.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
Yeah, and we've talked about in previous shows that depending
on your demographic or skin color, it was necessarily especially
in the past, information was not given and provided to
some people of color about some of the benefits and
they were excluded in one of our former guests, Calvin
(21:32):
Handy mentioned that he was lucky to have known what
to pursue benefits because it wasn't shouted out and he
was speaking as a black man, And that just comes
to my mind. How and I do believe the arc
is bending more towards justice, but it takes time and
(21:54):
sometimes there's pushbacks. But you know, on previous shows we've
talked about how, yeah, exactly what you're saying. Ask to
find someone who will advocate for you if you feel
like you're not getting benefits that you totally deserve. That
reminds me of one of one of my other questions.
I'm gonna look at my phone because that's where I
(22:16):
do a lot of typing. Let me just just scrolling
back a little bit. Well, I know that I don't
know this might seem obvious to us, but can you
just share why you think it's so important that we
educate our youth and also not just our youth us
me here, so many adults are getting particularly like, I
(22:41):
don't know, baffled. I think right now I'm confused about
you know, wait, wait is that what the National Guard
is supposed to do? Or or if people are wearing
camo are they in the army? Anyway, I just I
would like to hear from you why it's so important
to educate youth and adults about, you know, the role
of the military and civics and leadership.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Certainly so.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
Just by way of background, I served in the Army
from nineteen ninety four to twenty eighteen, and I've been
a lifelong student, constantly learning in school, and so from
that perspective, I think that learning is important. The more
knowledge you have, the more tools you have to make
(23:27):
critical decisions, you know, and to think critically. And then
of course, after I well, after I retired from the army,
I was a student again at the Lutheran Theological Seminary
in Gettysburg, and then I became an educator in the
public school system. So I think that, you know, from
(23:48):
that perspective, I do truly believe that it's important to
educate young people about the role of the military.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
And so I'm a.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
Junior RTC instructor, and in that capacity, I teach students
about civics and leadership. The JROTC program is open to
all boys and girls in high school and there's no
military commitment for participating in JROTC. So, unlike Senior ROTC
and college where we're training people to become military officers,
(24:24):
in JROTC, we teach the leadership in civics, no tactics,
where there's no military commitment. And in fact, our battalion
commander is a female student, Riley Brebridge, and she is
responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen in
the battalion. And those include things lots of skills that
(24:47):
you wouldn't you might not even consider, but fundraising, for example,
right in order to conduct our military ball, we have
to raise money, so we have to conduct fundraisers cadets.
It's a cadet run program, so they plan and execute
the fundraisers under the guidance and supervision of Command Surge
(25:08):
Major Lash and Doc and me the two instructors recruiting cadets.
They have to recruit, not recruiting military recruiting, but recruiting
students into Junior ROTC service learning projects. They plan and
conduct service learning projects veterans appreciation events. So one of
(25:29):
the things that the students learn in JAROTC is to
appreciate what the veterans in the community have done. And
so they do that by interacting with veterans and talking
to them and performing color guards at ceremonies, and they
get to learn something about what these veterans have done,
(25:52):
learn to appreciate their service. Continuous improvement, so one of
the things we do in JAROITCS. Every year we want
the battalion to be better than it was the year before,
so we're constantly looking at how we can improve. And
then Cadet Breveridge, as the battalion commander, is the spokesperson
(26:12):
for our battalion and so in that capacity, she has
been out to visit of VFW, representatives from the disabled
American Veterans, and an organization known as the Military Order
of the Kooties, which is a group of people that
encourages provides encouragement and support to veterans who are in
(26:34):
the hospital. And through all of this, the cadets learn
the role of the military. They learned to appreciate the
role of the military in American society. So you know
what the military does, why it exists, and so we
(26:55):
know that most of the cadets in j ROTC are
not going to graduate from high school and join the military,
but but they will graduate from high school with an
appreciation for the role of military and an understanding of
what the military is supposed to do and and what
(27:15):
the military does, and how how the military is used
responsibly under the Constitution and the laws of the United States.
So and when to recognize when that might not be
occurring as well, Right, I mean that that's the that's
it's one thing to understand how the military is used responsibly,
(27:36):
but the reason you would want to know that is
so that you could identify if that, ever is not
happening properly.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Right, That's a that's a great segue into some other
questions that I'm hearing a lot of students ask, and
just to the best of your ability, and and some
of them are are like I went around and asked
some adults like do you know I'm bear person like
me so, and a lot of a lot of us
(28:04):
were like, well, I don't know, let me look it up.
Let me look it up. And then people like, well,
how do you know that AI answer is correct?
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Correct?
Speaker 4 (28:12):
The first one that I heard very recently is ICE
a branch of the military, Because there's so there's so
much there's a lot of disturbing videos about what ICE
is doing in different cities in our country, and I
think of the roughness of taking people without identifying themselves
(28:36):
or being masked, and then and so people were like,
wait a minute, are they even how do they fit into?
You know, the structure?
Speaker 5 (28:44):
Right, So the short answer to your question is that
ICE is not a part of the Department of Defense.
ICE belongs to the Department of Homeland Security, just like
the Coast Guard does for example. Now from here on out,
I am more of an expert on the Department of
(29:05):
Defense than I am on the Department of Fundland Security.
So I will I'll do the best I can to
stick to the facts here. But ICE, which stands for
United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement under the leadership of
Acting Director Todd Lyons was ICE was created after the
(29:29):
September eleven attacks. It was created in two thousand and two.
At the time, it was a relatively small course, but
in two thousand and five, under the so okay, let
me back up, a second here. So the executive branch
of the government under the under the leadership of the
(29:52):
President of the United States, is responsible for enforcing the
laws that Congress makes. So Congress makes the laws, the
President is responsible for enforcing the laws. So some of
the tools that the president has to do that are
law enforcement the military. So ICE is a law enforcement
(30:17):
entity under the leadership of President Trump. In twenty twenty five,
it became the largest and most well funded federal law
enforcement agency in US history. The mission of ICE is
to protect America through criminal investigation and enforcing immigration laws,
(30:41):
to preserve national security and public safety. So national security
and public safety are clearly two functions of the executive
branch of the government, and ICE is supposed to facilitate
public safety and national security through criminal investigating and enforcing
immigration laws. Enforcing the law, that's what the executive branch
(31:03):
is supposed to do, enforce the laws the Congress passes. Right, So,
the ICE has two main branches within it. The first
is the Homeland Security and Investigations branch, which is responsible
for the disruption of transnational crime, and the Enforcement and
(31:26):
Removal Operations branch, which is responsible for the deportation of
undocumented immigrants.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Thank you that I didn't realize there that was under
two different right.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (31:40):
So yeah, it's it's that enforcement and removal ops branch
of ICE.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
That receives the most publicity.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Okay, And and well I'm sure there's not as simple
yes or no. So this kind of the next question
that I I keep hearing is is it legal? It's
the way it's asked for ICE agents to not have
(32:10):
not have a badge, not identify who they are, not
say specifically, and and to be bass. And also this
seems like some aer and T shirts and regular clothes
and some are and camera clothes. I was with students
today being shown videos and in this sort of a
mixed crowd of theoretically ICE agents somewhere in like Camra
(32:35):
clothes and you can pick up clothes like that at
the Goodwill thrift store, you know. But but you know,
it's confusing because people are like, oh, wait a minute,
is the arm is the arm are we a is
the United States using the army to do that? It
just got so confusing. But I guess the question in
there is is it legal to not say, you know,
(32:56):
identify what agent you're from? If you're taking someone and
is not Is that not lacking due process when people
are masks and thinking people, especially in really kind of rough,
sometimes really violent ways.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Yeah, well, so part of your question is is easy
to answer.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Part of it is not.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Uh the question, you know, is it uh legal to
detain people without due process? The answer is clearly no, right.
The fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution says that all American
citizens are entitled to due process, So that part of
your question is easy to answer. The question about whether
(33:40):
it's legal to uh, you know, address in in in
a camouflage military style uniform, that that is more difficult,
or whether it's legal to to you know, mask your face.
You know, I I don't know that answer to that, I,
(34:01):
you know, based on what I know about uh more
regular police operations. Police officers generally identify themselves. They have
a badge, they wear a uniform.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
You know.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
In the military, we wear a uniform, and in fact,
uh you know, if we're captured, we are required to
provide our name and and UH service identification number and
date of birth to our captors. So it seems to
me like you should have to identify yourself. But I
don't know I mean, I know that it that there's
(34:37):
a federal law against impersonating a military officer.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
I don't know if there's a law. I don't think.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
In fact, I know there's not a law that that
against impersonating a military person in general. So like if
you wanted to go buy a camouflage uniform and walk
around town in it, it's not illegal U, But in
the course of performing your official federal duties, I don't know.
(35:06):
I would think not. But I without the legal education
required there, I can't. I can't say definitively now it
seems wrong to me, but but I can't. I can't
say that it's I don't know whether it's illegal.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Yeah, I just think it's painful for not just as
students but all of us. Is to see like the
lack of due process, it's just very disillusioning and very concerning.
It's not only like intimidating, but it's also very concerning,
just even to witness like wait, wait, wait, wait, this
(35:41):
is America, so that lack of due process.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Is definitely UH.
Speaker 5 (35:48):
Seizing or detaining a person or a person's property without
a warrant would be a violation of due process, and
that would be against the law.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
Yeah, let me see what else my.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Even then, I I just want to caveat and be careful.
I mean, clearly a police officer can arrest someone in
the act of performing a violent crime without a warrant.
So I mean, I I don't want to say, you know,
I'm I'm not a professor of legal studies, so so
I'm I'm just giving I'm just giving you the best
(36:24):
answers I can here. But I would not, uh, you know,
count any of this as being.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
You know, official right, and and you're not an attorney,
and you're not right representing a legal attorney. I just
it's I think it's just helpful to be able to
talk out loud. But the I mean, I think just
some of it is just acknowledging that people who are
not being violent are being taken and not without a warrant,
(36:55):
even like from like hospitals or even churches or courtrooms
when they're going when they're following the legal processes to
whether it's you know, in a stage of becoming a
citizen or you know, people who've lived here for a
lot of years paying taxes who don't have criminal history.
I think it's just honestly, it's just hard to justify
(37:17):
and help students or friends or neighbors. Well, I think
that's why there's so much, so many protests and resistance,
because I think a lot of people are recognizing, wait
a minute, this is not following our laws. There's just
a lot of behavior. But I'm not gonna you don't
have to comment on that. I'm just kind of sharing
(37:38):
what I'm feeling and seeing around me. Me feel free
to comment, but that's just more like me commenting.
Speaker 5 (37:45):
Yeah, I would hope that the that the members of
the legal the judicial branch of our government would be
able to, you know, interpret what's going on fairly and
put a stop to any activity that is a violation
of due process. But I think in the in the
(38:08):
capacity that I'm speaking to you today, I don't think
that I'm qualified to, uh, you know, make any judgments
about any specific actions.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
No, understand you're not doing that, and you're just pointing
out that you know the roles of the branches. You know,
we do have a judicial branch who can hopefully make
sure follow follow the situations and help America follow the law.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Let's see.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
I think one other I think I just have one
more question from what I say, are my kids, they're
not actually my kids. Let's see. Oh yeah, this this
relates to the I was thinking about this when you
were talking about the ATSD and turning turning for help,
(39:04):
you know, post service. But I was thinking. I've been
thinking about you know, soldiers and like National Guard or
you know, anybody in any branch of the military or
working for and it just seems to be different mindset
right now with ICE. But I worry about soldiers who
might be in different circumstances. And I am not thinking
(39:27):
of anything specific right now, but there we might be
circumstances where they feel like they're being told to fall
in order that they know is illegal. And then I've
you know, we've had some high ranking general experts say
things like you do not have to obey an order
that is illegal. But but I'm thinking that would be
(39:50):
so tough, Like how could you be a soldier and
not follow in order, even if in your heart of
hearts you're thinking, oh gosh, this isn't legal. I don't
really feel like it's the reality of you having an
option or of saying, oh no, I actually I'm going
to you know, talk to so and so or I'm
not going to participate that. It seems to me we
could we have people must be people in service who
(40:12):
are currently suffering PTSD. And even from that kind of
dilemma where you're asked to do something that goes against
your values or goes against what you believe is legal.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
Right, So, yeah, not only do you not have to
follow an order that is illegal or immoral, you, as
a soldier, you have an obligation not to follow an
order that you know to be illegal or immoral. Now,
that's that's the ethics. The problem is when you encounter
(40:46):
an ethical dilemma where any option that you have to
choose from requires you to violate part of your moral code. So, okay,
do I disobey my order?
Speaker 4 (40:58):
You know?
Speaker 5 (40:59):
I think you know, uh, you know, obedience is important,
but I also think that, uh you know, so you know,
do I choose to disobey the order I received?
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Do I choose to disobey the law? This?
Speaker 5 (41:12):
This is where things you know, and sometimes it's just
not very it's not entirely clear. And so I would
say that, you know, my my advice to to a
soldier or any member of the military would be don't
violate an order if you know that it I mean,
excuse me, don't obey an order if you know to
know it to be illegal or immoral. But you better
(41:32):
be doggone sure that it's illegal or immoral, you know,
I would I would say, if there's some ambiguity there
and you have the time, uh in the space to
do it, then maybe consult with with a JAG officer
or uh or consult with your chain of command and
(41:53):
and maybe get a second you know, get some other opinions.
It's a it's a lot of use you're for a
group of people to say we we think that this
is wrong and we shouldn't do it, than it is
to to try to go it alone. So it's a
it's a it's not straightforward. It's complicated, but you not
(42:18):
you are required to not obey in order if you
know it to be illegal or immoral. The trick is
knowing what's illegal and immoral and and and being sure
you know about it, so uh, you know, sometimes sometimes
you end up in a you know, in a dilemma
where you know somebody is a sniper shooting at your
(42:42):
platoon from a hospital and you know it's uh illegal,
to h to assault a hospital, but you're taking fire
from you know, so you know, what what do you do?
Do you put potentially put patients in the hospital at
risk by returning fire to to the sniper, or do
you allow the sniper to continue to pick off members
(43:03):
of or platent. You know, it's either you know, whatever
you do, you're going to violate some part portion of
your moral code and then in that case you have
to make the best judgment you can.
Speaker 4 (43:15):
That's well put. Yeah, and and thank you for clarifying
and emphasizing that it's actually illegal to follow an illegal order.
It's against your orders to follow an illegal order. And
I'm thinking about like I guess, like National Guard in
different cities. I think sometimes it's just you know, have
(43:38):
it can be extremely uncomfortable if you're asked to do
something that you're not actually trained for as well, which
I think is currently happening in different arenas, but that
could be a whole other show. Yeah, well, I want
to give you a talking of about three minutes left
to just share whatever sort of closing thoughts have or
(44:01):
anything else you'd like us to know before we have
to wrap up.
Speaker 5 (44:04):
Yeah, I mean, I would just kind of summarize and say,
you know, we live in a society where the military
is controlled by civilian authorities, and it's incumbent upon all
of us military and civilian to employ our military in
a responsible way. We operate under the rule of law,
(44:25):
so none of us is above the law, regardless of
our position or stature.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
I think it's very.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Important to educate the US citizenry, especially young people, about
the role of the military and to teach them some
civics and leadership so that they understand how the military
is properly employed, what those veterans have gone through, and
(44:53):
how they should be treated upon their return, and also
to be able to recognize when something is a you
and you know, there are there are many uh uh
departments uh within the executive branch that all serve to
help the president enforce the laws. The military is one
(45:13):
of them. The law enforcement activities such as the FBI, ICE,
the Department of Findline Security are you know, are others
and uh, it's it's a big it's a big government
with lots of moving parts, and it's it can it
can get confusing. So uh, you know, if you have
the opportunity to educate yourself about it. I would take
(45:36):
advantage of that.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
That's great, and I want to underscore that if you
notice something is askew, like if we're educated, then we
can notice something is askew, and then we can call
our representatives and we can talk to other people and
we can build some support to try to write what
we see is wrong. I want to just read the
number one more time. For anybody listening. You can go
(45:57):
online for veterans Cristis line dot net, or you can
call one eight hundred and two seven three eight two
five five for anyone who needs to connect to community.
And please break isolation. Don't be alone if you're feeling alone.
And thank you, Thank you to all veterans. Thank you
to Lieutenant Richard Cass and rich Cass, and thank you
(46:18):
so much, Lieutenant Colonel.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
I really appreciate the education you've given me. Tonight.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
It was nice to see you again.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
Nice to see you again. And thank you Rebel our engineer,
and Dean our producer, and to the listeners and viewers,
and please tune in next Wednesday at eight pm and
talk for TV or W four c Y dot com
and maybe all have enriching conversations and educational conversations this week.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Good night.
Speaker 6 (46:42):
For now, let's beech, let's beach, in let's speech, in
let's preach.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
A artic gallet switch is a laric galllet switch off
the h
The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are
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(00:20):
for choosing W four c Y Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Logic, Let's beach lochic, Let's peak sure in Lotic, Let's
breech in lot, Let's breach o in logic, Let's breech
(00:47):
and logic.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Let's breach of.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Lot. Hello, and welcome to It's Your Voice, the show
that hosts and riching conversations in diversity. My name is
Bihia Yasagn. I'm a core alignment coach and a diversity educator,
and if you're interested in seeing the programs I can
offer to help people align their values and their actions together,
(01:16):
you can find my website at Know what you Want
Coaching dot WordPress dot com. Today we're having an amazing show.
Every year we take time to honor and thank veterans
on or New Your Veterans Day. This year we'll be
having other veterans on later, but I wanted to usually
(01:37):
have a panel, but I wanted to focus this show
on helping clarify issues that a lot of people are
confused about right now, about the proper role of military
branches and service. And again, as we do every year,
express gratitude for the service and sacrifice veterans give, and
(02:00):
also reinforce how much healing and support people who serve
and combat especially deserve when they return home. And before
I introduce our guests, who you will recognize when you've
been following the show, I wanted to again well together,
(02:23):
we dedicate this show to my first cousin, Bobby, and
who is my guests uncle. I just want to read
it to. But first before I read the dedication, let's
let's bring Richard Camille casts the second out please, and
(02:44):
I'm going to rich if I may, I'd like to
read a little bit of your bio, and then well,
thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
It's my privilege.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
And then then I want to let people know what
or to your family member Bobby did in his service.
So Richard Camille Cassim the second is a retired lieutenant
colonel and we call him rich Cassum. He's a retired
infantry officer and the Middle East and North Africa Foreign
Area Officer. His last assignment was Arabian Peninsula Division Chief
(03:18):
for the Joint Staff. In that capacity, he was advisor
to the Chairman of the Joint Staff, General Dunford, and
military policy in the Arabian Peninsula. So that is a
lot right now. You're a senior instructor at a junior
ROTC High school, is that correct?
Speaker 5 (03:38):
That's correct, So thank you be here for having me
on again. I've enjoyed my previous panel sessions and I
have to say it's a privilege and a bit intimidating
to be your only guest the first time. But I
will do my best to provide as much facts and
(04:00):
information as I can to help people understand what's going on.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Thank you, and you always do and thanks for being
willing to let me take up this whole show with
just being able to get some clarity from you. And
you instruct and you teach every day. You have a
very important role and you have so much integrity. I
just really trust you as a resource, you know, reliable information.
(04:25):
So I want and also if I miss anything about
your uncle Bobby, I want to just say why we're
dedicating this show to him. Please add and then we'll
start our conversation. So Bobby was a UH one eight
telicopter pilot who served eighteen months in Vietnam transporting and
(04:46):
extracting US and Vietnamese troops into an out of hot
landing zones. He had extreme amount of courage as he
had to hover while taking heavy enemy fire when the
Distinguished Flying Cross two Bronze Stars for valor and two
Air Medals for Valor. And it's with great sadness that
(05:10):
I share that he it was such a traumatic experience
and just not enough support for people who serve that
he is no longer with us. Bobby suffered so much
he took his own life as his own hands. And
we know he's not alone. And we are also going
to provide a crisis number that our wonderful sound engineer.
(05:34):
There's our banner already. I'm going to just say this number. Now,
anybody who's listening who knows a veteran or who is
a veteran who could use some support. One thing you
can do is you can text eight three eight two
five five. There's online chat available Veterans Crisis Line dot net.
I will I'll say it again at the end. If
(05:54):
you're able to view, you see the number on the
screen one eight hundred two seven three eight two five
five and you can press one. So that's just very
important to just name one resource. So back to you, Well, Casa,
I don't know if you want to add any words
to that.
Speaker 5 (06:14):
Well, I just want to say by way of introduction
that you know, I come from a family where I
have many relatives who served in the military. My brother
and now my nephew are currently on active duty. My
father served, and both of my grandfathers served, and of
(06:39):
course Uncle Bobby, my my father's brother, served And while
we have many happy memories of our military service, you know,
Uncle Bobby is a reminder of what can happen if
soldiers or military people in general return from combat and
(06:59):
don't receive the treatment and the care and the respect
from from their fellow citizens that they deserve. And unfortunately,
as you and I both know, uncle Bobby killed himself
upon his return from Vietnam. You know, he was not
married and had no children, and he just he didn't
(07:21):
have a support structure like my father did. My father
was married, I was born, so he had a wife
and a son. So, you know, please, if if there's
a veteran out there listening who is in crisis, please
call the number or text the number on the the's
scrolling on the screen below. And and even if you're
(07:42):
struggling but aren't in imminent crisis, then I encourage veterans
to connect with their local VFW or American Legion or
some other veterans support group, just to have someone to
share and get information about services that are available two veterans.
(08:06):
So I think that's that's very important. And of course
we would like to prevent any further veterans suicides, veteran
you know, veteran homelessness, any of those issues. And so
I encourage you to reach out if you need help,
and even if you just need a community to be
(08:27):
a part of.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Thank you so much. That was so well poor, so
well put as having communities to make a big difference.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Yes, absolutely, I have been I've been very fortunate to
have been able to work with the VFW for for
several years now. I before I moved to Uniontown, Pennsylvania,
I was the District commander of the Department of Pennsylvania
District twelve for the VFW, and it's there's just so
(08:57):
many resources available that the people don't realize until they
until they reach out and connect. So the VFW, the
American Legions, they have veteran service officers who can help
you get the benefits that you deserve and provide you
with resources if you need it.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
So we hope to.
Speaker 5 (09:23):
See every veteran get all the benefits that they're entitled
to and of course prevent suicides and prevent you help
people recover from from PTSD and other stresses that come
with serving in combat.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Thank you for emphasizing that. I'm so glad you had support.
I just wondered, I know you had your like you said, family,
and I know your Yeah, your grandfather had an honorable discharge.
I think I just found a certificate.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I'm proud.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
I'm proud to say that all of my relatives who
have served were orally discharged.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
So yes, that it is.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Part of the identity of my family, part of my
own identity. I've had many relatives who served honorably in
the military, and I'm proud to be among.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Them, and we're proud of you and all of them. Wow,
I want to look at an outline because there's there's
so many different directions we could go in, but I
appreciate the direction of if you can share what you
(10:35):
think we should know, because, as let's just say, as
an average American referring to myself, there's so much we
don't remember or we didn't learn about even basic civics,
much less what are what are our military branches doing?
There's just too much ignorance, right, and it's it's really,
(10:58):
it's really a surfacing now, So please share with us
what you think it would be important for us to
know about civil control of the military under the Constitution.
I think I see people kind of looking at the
Constitution again these days and the need to exercise command
of the military in a responsible way.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
All right, But I know that some of your students
are listening, and I hope that some of mine are
as well. So, without getting too technical, the framers of
our Constitution were concerned about any one individual wielding too
much power, so they decided that important decisions should belong
(11:46):
it should be important. Decision making was a responsibility of Congress.
Of course, there are hundreds of people in Congress in
two houses, right, the Senate and the House of Representatives,
So Congressional decision making is by design slow and deliberate.
They also understood that some decisions are too cumbersome for
(12:10):
many people to make, so in an emergency, then we
need a single person who can make some decisions. So
they divided up the power and the responsibilities, and they
gave the power to declare war and to conclude peace
to the Congress, and so Congress gets to decide who
(12:32):
our friends and enemies are. They gave command of the
military to the president. So what that means is that
the professionals who fight and win our nation's wars don't
decide who we fight. They don't get to choose who
their enemies are, so they determine how to prosecute the wars.
(12:57):
Under the command of the president means that we don't
have a commander of the army or a commander of
the navy, or a commander of the military. We have
chiefs of staff who coordinate the efforts of the military
under the president. Well, under we have cheess. The staff,
(13:18):
who coordinate their efforts under the Chairman of the Joint Staff,
who provides his best military advice to the President. Now
we call this civilian control of the military. Now, the
President and Congress and the military have to follow certain
rules that are set forth originally by the Constitution and
(13:40):
subsequently by our code of Laws. And we call this
the rule of law. So civilian control of the military
and the rule of law are both suggest the need
for Congress, the President, the Secretary of Defense, the service secretaries,
and the military leadership to exercise man of the military
(14:01):
in a responsible way. For example, Uh, there's a law
known as the pass Cooma Tatis Act, which states that
no regular military force may be used to conduct police
actions against US citizens. Now, it's more complicated than that.
The National Guards are not considered regular military forces. Right,
(14:25):
So national guards are are exempt from that, and in fact,
federal forces have from time to time been uh employed,
uh employed by the president to to conduct civil actions.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
You can think back to.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Integration of black students and white students.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
And so in certain during the civil rights era, this
was uh you know, this began to thisctice became more
common than it had prior to that. So, so I
think those two, those two factors are very important to
to to understand that in the United States we have
(15:17):
civilian control of the military, and the military and our
government both have to follow the rule of law.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
So I think one thing that's confusing about the National
Guard is that it's a national clarify for me.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yes, okay, all right, yet state right.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
So Initially, when the Constitution was written, these militias were
called state militias, and each state had a militia.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Uh. And in fact, the belief was.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
That that a a state militia was necessary to the
existence of a state, and all the states were considered
themselves to be free states. You know, the Constitution conglomerated
these states under a federal government, but each state felt
(16:13):
that it was a free, independent state, and each one had.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Its own militia.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
When we thought the Revolutionary War, the states united their
state militias under the command of General Washington, and they
called it the Continental Army, but it was but each
regiment had its own state affiliation and they were they
(16:38):
were state militias, and they still are to this day,
state militias most commonly. But these state militias now you know,
over time the rules changed and morphed, and now these
state militias can be federalized and used as part of
the regular force. So in the case of the army,
(16:59):
that would be the regular our army and the Army
Reserve and the National Guard can be used to supplement those.
And likewise, sometimes the federal force can be used to
conduct certain civil actions, for example, hurricane relief right things
like that. So it's not as clear cut as you
(17:23):
would think if you just read the Constitution. A good
example would be the Second Amendment to the Constitution, which
says something to the effect of a well regulated militia
being necessary to the function of a free state. The
rights of American citizens to keep in bear arms shall
not be infringed. So the purpose of the Second Amendment,
(17:47):
the reason why Americans were allowed to keep in bear arms,
was so that they could serve in their state militias.
That's changed, yes, I mean that's and I mean it
does say that the the Amendment, which has been upheld
by the Supreme Court, does say that American citizens have
(18:07):
the right to keep in bear arms.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
And so the the determination of the of the Supreme
Court was that even if you don't join your state militia,
you still have the right to keep the bear arms.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Well, let me ask the next question they have We
talked a little bit about the need to care for
soldiers upon their return from combat. You can always add
we can always add more to that, right.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
Well, I mean, clearly this hits home for us because
we both are related to Uncle Bobby uh And and
so we we understand the the need for this. And
as a district commander for the VFW, I have seen
many veterans who who need that support and they don't
(18:58):
as a as a soldier, just as a soldier returning
from combat, you wouldn't necessarily know what kind of treatment
you're entitled to. You might not even realize that you
have symptoms of PTSD or certain mental health stresses that
(19:19):
come with coming home from combat, or even some types
of non combat service. And so it's important to have
a community that can help you recognize that. That might
come in the form of your family, or it might
come in the form of the VFW. The advantage to
(19:42):
the American Legion, the VFW disabled American veterans. There's a
large number of organizations out there. The advantage to these organizations,
is that you're with people who have experienced similar things
and they can help you. If you you're in a
large a large group like that, you're likely to find
somebody who's able to help you. Some of those members
(20:05):
of the Legion and the VFW and the DAV are
specially trained to be service officers and they can lead
you to the people who are able to help. So
they themselves might not be able to provide you with
the help you need, but they can. They can direct
you where you need to go. And then even if
(20:29):
you're not suffering from any PTSD or suicidal thoughts or
anything severe like that, they can help you. They can
help ensure that you're getting the benefits to which you're
entitled because I know, when I retired from the army,
I had some idea what benefits I was entitled to,
(20:49):
but I'm not you know, I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Not a lawyer.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
I didn't know all the benefits. And so these people
specialize in that kind of thing, and they can they
can help direct you to to make sure that you're
have the opportunity at least to take advantage of all
the benefits that you're entitled to.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
Yeah, and we've talked about in previous shows that depending
on your demographic or skin color, it was necessarily especially
in the past, information was not given and provided to
some people of color about some of the benefits and
they were excluded in one of our former guests, Calvin
(21:32):
Handy mentioned that he was lucky to have known what
to pursue benefits because it wasn't shouted out and he
was speaking as a black man, And that just comes
to my mind. How and I do believe the arc
is bending more towards justice, but it takes time and
(21:54):
sometimes there's pushbacks. But you know, on previous shows we've
talked about how, yeah, exactly what you're saying. Ask to
find someone who will advocate for you if you feel
like you're not getting benefits that you totally deserve. That
reminds me of one of one of my other questions.
I'm gonna look at my phone because that's where I
(22:16):
do a lot of typing. Let me just just scrolling
back a little bit. Well, I know that I don't
know this might seem obvious to us, but can you
just share why you think it's so important that we
educate our youth and also not just our youth us
me here, so many adults are getting particularly like, I
(22:41):
don't know, baffled. I think right now I'm confused about
you know, wait, wait is that what the National Guard
is supposed to do? Or or if people are wearing
camo are they in the army? Anyway, I just I
would like to hear from you why it's so important
to educate youth and adults about, you know, the role
of the military and civics and leadership.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Certainly so.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
Just by way of background, I served in the Army
from nineteen ninety four to twenty eighteen, and I've been
a lifelong student, constantly learning in school, and so from
that perspective, I think that learning is important. The more
knowledge you have, the more tools you have to make
(23:27):
critical decisions, you know, and to think critically. And then
of course, after I well, after I retired from the army,
I was a student again at the Lutheran Theological Seminary
in Gettysburg, and then I became an educator in the
public school system. So I think that, you know, from
(23:48):
that perspective, I do truly believe that it's important to
educate young people about the role of the military.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
And so I'm a.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
Junior RTC instructor, and in that capacity, I teach students
about civics and leadership. The JROTC program is open to
all boys and girls in high school and there's no
military commitment for participating in JROTC. So, unlike Senior ROTC
and college where we're training people to become military officers,
(24:24):
in JROTC, we teach the leadership in civics, no tactics,
where there's no military commitment. And in fact, our battalion
commander is a female student, Riley Brebridge, and she is
responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen in
the battalion. And those include things lots of skills that
(24:47):
you wouldn't you might not even consider, but fundraising, for example,
right in order to conduct our military ball, we have
to raise money, so we have to conduct fundraisers cadets.
It's a cadet run program, so they plan and execute
the fundraisers under the guidance and supervision of Command Surge
(25:08):
Major Lash and Doc and me the two instructors recruiting cadets.
They have to recruit, not recruiting military recruiting, but recruiting
students into Junior ROTC service learning projects. They plan and
conduct service learning projects veterans appreciation events. So one of
(25:29):
the things that the students learn in JAROTC is to
appreciate what the veterans in the community have done. And
so they do that by interacting with veterans and talking
to them and performing color guards at ceremonies, and they
get to learn something about what these veterans have done,
(25:52):
learn to appreciate their service. Continuous improvement, so one of
the things we do in JAROITCS. Every year we want
the battalion to be better than it was the year before,
so we're constantly looking at how we can improve. And
then Cadet Breveridge, as the battalion commander, is the spokesperson
(26:12):
for our battalion and so in that capacity, she has
been out to visit of VFW, representatives from the disabled
American Veterans, and an organization known as the Military Order
of the Kooties, which is a group of people that
encourages provides encouragement and support to veterans who are in
(26:34):
the hospital. And through all of this, the cadets learn
the role of the military. They learned to appreciate the
role of the military in American society. So you know
what the military does, why it exists, and so we
(26:55):
know that most of the cadets in j ROTC are
not going to graduate from high school and join the military,
but but they will graduate from high school with an
appreciation for the role of military and an understanding of
what the military is supposed to do and and what
(27:15):
the military does, and how how the military is used
responsibly under the Constitution and the laws of the United States.
So and when to recognize when that might not be
occurring as well, Right, I mean that that's the that's
it's one thing to understand how the military is used responsibly,
(27:36):
but the reason you would want to know that is
so that you could identify if that, ever is not
happening properly.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Right, That's a that's a great segue into some other
questions that I'm hearing a lot of students ask, and
just to the best of your ability, and and some
of them are are like I went around and asked
some adults like do you know I'm bear person like
me so, and a lot of a lot of us
(28:04):
were like, well, I don't know, let me look it up.
Let me look it up. And then people like, well,
how do you know that AI answer is correct?
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Correct?
Speaker 4 (28:12):
The first one that I heard very recently is ICE
a branch of the military, Because there's so there's so
much there's a lot of disturbing videos about what ICE
is doing in different cities in our country, and I
think of the roughness of taking people without identifying themselves
(28:36):
or being masked, and then and so people were like,
wait a minute, are they even how do they fit into?
You know, the structure?
Speaker 5 (28:44):
Right, So the short answer to your question is that
ICE is not a part of the Department of Defense.
ICE belongs to the Department of Homeland Security, just like
the Coast Guard does for example. Now from here on out,
I am more of an expert on the Department of
(29:05):
Defense than I am on the Department of Fundland Security.
So I will I'll do the best I can to
stick to the facts here. But ICE, which stands for
United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement under the leadership of
Acting Director Todd Lyons was ICE was created after the
(29:29):
September eleven attacks. It was created in two thousand and two.
At the time, it was a relatively small course, but
in two thousand and five, under the so okay, let
me back up, a second here. So the executive branch
of the government under the under the leadership of the
(29:52):
President of the United States, is responsible for enforcing the
laws that Congress makes. So Congress makes the laws, the
President is responsible for enforcing the laws. So some of
the tools that the president has to do that are
law enforcement the military. So ICE is a law enforcement
(30:17):
entity under the leadership of President Trump. In twenty twenty five,
it became the largest and most well funded federal law
enforcement agency in US history. The mission of ICE is
to protect America through criminal investigation and enforcing immigration laws,
(30:41):
to preserve national security and public safety. So national security
and public safety are clearly two functions of the executive
branch of the government, and ICE is supposed to facilitate
public safety and national security through criminal investigating and enforcing
immigration laws. Enforcing the law, that's what the executive branch
(31:03):
is supposed to do, enforce the laws the Congress passes. Right, So,
the ICE has two main branches within it. The first
is the Homeland Security and Investigations branch, which is responsible
for the disruption of transnational crime, and the Enforcement and
(31:26):
Removal Operations branch, which is responsible for the deportation of
undocumented immigrants.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Thank you that I didn't realize there that was under
two different right.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (31:40):
So yeah, it's it's that enforcement and removal ops branch
of ICE.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
That receives the most publicity.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Okay, And and well I'm sure there's not as simple
yes or no. So this kind of the next question
that I I keep hearing is is it legal? It's
the way it's asked for ICE agents to not have
(32:10):
not have a badge, not identify who they are, not
say specifically, and and to be bass. And also this
seems like some aer and T shirts and regular clothes
and some are and camera clothes. I was with students
today being shown videos and in this sort of a
mixed crowd of theoretically ICE agents somewhere in like Camra
(32:35):
clothes and you can pick up clothes like that at
the Goodwill thrift store, you know. But but you know,
it's confusing because people are like, oh, wait a minute,
is the arm is the arm are we a is
the United States using the army to do that? It
just got so confusing. But I guess the question in
there is is it legal to not say, you know,
(32:56):
identify what agent you're from? If you're taking someone and
is not Is that not lacking due process when people
are masks and thinking people, especially in really kind of rough,
sometimes really violent ways.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Yeah, well, so part of your question is is easy
to answer.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Part of it is not.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Uh the question, you know, is it uh legal to
detain people without due process? The answer is clearly no, right.
The fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution says that all American
citizens are entitled to due process, So that part of
your question is easy to answer. The question about whether
(33:40):
it's legal to uh, you know, address in in in
a camouflage military style uniform, that that is more difficult,
or whether it's legal to to you know, mask your face.
You know, I I don't know that answer to that, I,
(34:01):
you know, based on what I know about uh more
regular police operations. Police officers generally identify themselves. They have
a badge, they wear a uniform.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
You know.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
In the military, we wear a uniform, and in fact,
uh you know, if we're captured, we are required to
provide our name and and UH service identification number and
date of birth to our captors. So it seems to
me like you should have to identify yourself. But I
don't know I mean, I know that it that there's
(34:37):
a federal law against impersonating a military officer.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
I don't know if there's a law. I don't think.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
In fact, I know there's not a law that that
against impersonating a military person in general. So like if
you wanted to go buy a camouflage uniform and walk
around town in it, it's not illegal U, But in
the course of performing your official federal duties, I don't know.
(35:06):
I would think not. But I without the legal education
required there, I can't. I can't say definitively now it
seems wrong to me, but but I can't. I can't
say that it's I don't know whether it's illegal.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Yeah, I just think it's painful for not just as
students but all of us. Is to see like the
lack of due process, it's just very disillusioning and very concerning.
It's not only like intimidating, but it's also very concerning,
just even to witness like wait, wait, wait, wait, this
(35:41):
is America, so that lack of due process.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Is definitely UH.
Speaker 5 (35:48):
Seizing or detaining a person or a person's property without
a warrant would be a violation of due process, and
that would be against the law.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
Yeah, let me see what else my.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Even then, I I just want to caveat and be careful.
I mean, clearly a police officer can arrest someone in
the act of performing a violent crime without a warrant.
So I mean, I I don't want to say, you know,
I'm I'm not a professor of legal studies, so so
I'm I'm just giving I'm just giving you the best
(36:24):
answers I can here. But I would not, uh, you know,
count any of this as being.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
You know, official right, and and you're not an attorney,
and you're not right representing a legal attorney. I just
it's I think it's just helpful to be able to
talk out loud. But the I mean, I think just
some of it is just acknowledging that people who are
not being violent are being taken and not without a warrant,
(36:55):
even like from like hospitals or even churches or courtrooms
when they're going when they're following the legal processes to
whether it's you know, in a stage of becoming a
citizen or you know, people who've lived here for a
lot of years paying taxes who don't have criminal history.
I think it's just honestly, it's just hard to justify
(37:17):
and help students or friends or neighbors. Well, I think
that's why there's so much, so many protests and resistance,
because I think a lot of people are recognizing, wait
a minute, this is not following our laws. There's just
a lot of behavior. But I'm not gonna you don't
have to comment on that. I'm just kind of sharing
(37:38):
what I'm feeling and seeing around me. Me feel free
to comment, but that's just more like me commenting.
Speaker 5 (37:45):
Yeah, I would hope that the that the members of
the legal the judicial branch of our government would be
able to, you know, interpret what's going on fairly and
put a stop to any activity that is a violation
of due process. But I think in the in the
(38:08):
capacity that I'm speaking to you today, I don't think
that I'm qualified to, uh, you know, make any judgments
about any specific actions.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
No, understand you're not doing that, and you're just pointing
out that you know the roles of the branches. You know,
we do have a judicial branch who can hopefully make
sure follow follow the situations and help America follow the law.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Let's see.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
I think one other I think I just have one
more question from what I say, are my kids, they're
not actually my kids. Let's see. Oh yeah, this this
relates to the I was thinking about this when you
were talking about the ATSD and turning turning for help,
(39:04):
you know, post service. But I was thinking. I've been
thinking about you know, soldiers and like National Guard or
you know, anybody in any branch of the military or
working for and it just seems to be different mindset
right now with ICE. But I worry about soldiers who
might be in different circumstances. And I am not thinking
(39:27):
of anything specific right now, but there we might be
circumstances where they feel like they're being told to fall
in order that they know is illegal. And then I've
you know, we've had some high ranking general experts say
things like you do not have to obey an order
that is illegal. But but I'm thinking that would be
(39:50):
so tough, Like how could you be a soldier and
not follow in order, even if in your heart of
hearts you're thinking, oh gosh, this isn't legal. I don't
really feel like it's the reality of you having an
option or of saying, oh no, I actually I'm going
to you know, talk to so and so or I'm
not going to participate that. It seems to me we
could we have people must be people in service who
(40:12):
are currently suffering PTSD. And even from that kind of
dilemma where you're asked to do something that goes against
your values or goes against what you believe is legal.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
Right, So, yeah, not only do you not have to
follow an order that is illegal or immoral, you, as
a soldier, you have an obligation not to follow an
order that you know to be illegal or immoral. Now,
that's that's the ethics. The problem is when you encounter
(40:46):
an ethical dilemma where any option that you have to
choose from requires you to violate part of your moral code. So, okay,
do I disobey my order?
Speaker 4 (40:58):
You know?
Speaker 5 (40:59):
I think you know, uh, you know, obedience is important,
but I also think that, uh you know, so you know,
do I choose to disobey the order I received?
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Do I choose to disobey the law? This?
Speaker 5 (41:12):
This is where things you know, and sometimes it's just
not very it's not entirely clear. And so I would
say that, you know, my my advice to to a
soldier or any member of the military would be don't
violate an order if you know that it I mean,
excuse me, don't obey an order if you know to
know it to be illegal or immoral. But you better
(41:32):
be doggone sure that it's illegal or immoral, you know,
I would I would say, if there's some ambiguity there
and you have the time, uh in the space to
do it, then maybe consult with with a JAG officer
or uh or consult with your chain of command and
(41:53):
and maybe get a second you know, get some other opinions.
It's a it's a lot of use you're for a
group of people to say we we think that this
is wrong and we shouldn't do it, than it is
to to try to go it alone. So it's a
it's a it's not straightforward. It's complicated, but you not
(42:18):
you are required to not obey in order if you
know it to be illegal or immoral. The trick is
knowing what's illegal and immoral and and and being sure
you know about it, so uh, you know, sometimes sometimes
you end up in a you know, in a dilemma
where you know somebody is a sniper shooting at your
(42:42):
platoon from a hospital and you know it's uh illegal,
to h to assault a hospital, but you're taking fire
from you know, so you know, what what do you do?
Do you put potentially put patients in the hospital at
risk by returning fire to to the sniper, or do
you allow the sniper to continue to pick off members
(43:03):
of or platent. You know, it's either you know, whatever
you do, you're going to violate some part portion of
your moral code and then in that case you have
to make the best judgment you can.
Speaker 4 (43:15):
That's well put. Yeah, and and thank you for clarifying
and emphasizing that it's actually illegal to follow an illegal order.
It's against your orders to follow an illegal order. And
I'm thinking about like I guess, like National Guard in
different cities. I think sometimes it's just you know, have
(43:38):
it can be extremely uncomfortable if you're asked to do
something that you're not actually trained for as well, which
I think is currently happening in different arenas, but that
could be a whole other show. Yeah, well, I want
to give you a talking of about three minutes left
to just share whatever sort of closing thoughts have or
(44:01):
anything else you'd like us to know before we have
to wrap up.
Speaker 5 (44:04):
Yeah, I mean, I would just kind of summarize and say,
you know, we live in a society where the military
is controlled by civilian authorities, and it's incumbent upon all
of us military and civilian to employ our military in
a responsible way. We operate under the rule of law,
(44:25):
so none of us is above the law, regardless of
our position or stature.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
I think it's very.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Important to educate the US citizenry, especially young people, about
the role of the military and to teach them some
civics and leadership so that they understand how the military
is properly employed, what those veterans have gone through, and
(44:53):
how they should be treated upon their return, and also
to be able to recognize when something is a you
and you know, there are there are many uh uh
departments uh within the executive branch that all serve to
help the president enforce the laws. The military is one
(45:13):
of them. The law enforcement activities such as the FBI, ICE,
the Department of Findline Security are you know, are others
and uh, it's it's a big it's a big government
with lots of moving parts, and it's it can it
can get confusing. So uh, you know, if you have
the opportunity to educate yourself about it. I would take
(45:36):
advantage of that.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
That's great, and I want to underscore that if you
notice something is askew, like if we're educated, then we
can notice something is askew, and then we can call
our representatives and we can talk to other people and
we can build some support to try to write what
we see is wrong. I want to just read the
number one more time. For anybody listening. You can go
(45:57):
online for veterans Cristis line dot net, or you can
call one eight hundred and two seven three eight two
five five for anyone who needs to connect to community.
And please break isolation. Don't be alone if you're feeling alone.
And thank you, Thank you to all veterans. Thank you
to Lieutenant Richard Cass and rich Cass, and thank you
(46:18):
so much, Lieutenant Colonel.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
I really appreciate the education you've given me. Tonight.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
It was nice to see you again.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
Nice to see you again. And thank you Rebel our engineer,
and Dean our producer, and to the listeners and viewers,
and please tune in next Wednesday at eight pm and
talk for TV or W four c Y dot com
and maybe all have enriching conversations and educational conversations this week.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Good night.
Speaker 6 (46:42):
For now, let's beech, let's beach, in let's speech, in
let's preach.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
A artic gallet switch is a laric galllet switch off
the h
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