October 16, 2024 • 50 mins
Dr. Michelle Famula is the President of the Davis, CA Chapter of League of Women Voters. WLV encourages & educates voters on our rights & impacts on legislative issues. Also a retired physician & former Medical Clinic Director with 35 years of experience in primary care of young adults on a college campus, and expert medical knowledge, Dr. Famula conveys the depth of the tragic cruelty & medical ignorance of “heartbeat” laws which create unconscionable elimination of standard obstetrical care.
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It's Your Voice is broadcast live Wednesdays at 8PM ET Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). It's Your Voice is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
It's Your Voice Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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Speaker 2 (00:30):
Let's speak Sure.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
In Lot, Let's breech in Lot's.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
In Lott's Lot, Let in a lot of.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hello, and welcome to It's Your Voice, the show that
hosts enriching conversations and diversity. My name is Bihia Yaxon.
I'm a diversity educator and a Coreliament coach. I support
organizations and individuals in identifying patterns of bias that are
not serving them or the people they serve, and helping
(01:19):
them step out of it and cultivate new patterns which
are far more inclusive. They create belonging and actual equity
in a way that has.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Not been common yet. Getting closer to it over time.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I have a really exciting show tonight for those who
are interested in thinking about how to vote. I know
some people are not interested, some people are waiting for motivation,
some people want to learn more. And I have an
amazing guest, doctor Michelle Famula. Thank you for being out
(01:58):
here today, and we called the show Voters determine Government's
role over our lives. So if this interests you, tune
in and stay with us. Doctor Famula is not only
the president of a League of Women's Voters, she is
also a physician and going to read the bio. But Michelle,
(02:20):
come on out while I want to read your bio
because it's so interesting. And I was originally asking much
doctor Famula to be on to talk about the League
of Women's Voters, and then I found out about her
physician background. So we're going to be able to hit
two areas, two topics tonight.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
So I just want to read.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
That you are the president of the Davis, California Chapter
of League of Women's Voters. They joined in twenty eighteen
to help encourage voter participation and educate voters about their
voting rights and the impacts of legislative issues and vulnerable
populations in our communities. You are now a retired physician
(03:02):
and former medical clinic director with thirty five years of
experience and primary care of young adults on a college campus.
She's provided internal medicine, primary care, and reproductive and sexual
health clinical care. And you came to California in nineteen
eighty one and after medical training in New Jersey in
(03:23):
New York, and it's.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
After you retired.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
After she retired, she continues to teach in the UCD
School of Medicine, Department of Public Health Services, with a
focus on health care policy and prevention, prevention care, and
reproductive and sexual health. Thank you so much for being
here and for doing all that you do.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Oh, thank you. It's a pleasure. My career has been
a pleasure for me.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
That's wonderful to hear.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I went in to start first with you, letting folks
know a little bit of history about the League of
Women's Voters and the mission.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah. Sure, I'm happy to do that. The League's been
around for quite a while. It actually was something I
had heard about back when I was in my twenties
and was interested in what was going on in the country.
That certainly was the time of the Vietnam War, the
(04:28):
time of a lot of changes in women's rights and
civil rights, and the League was something I was aware
of as being something that citizens could participate in to
become more educated about what the voting issues were. The
League's been around for over one hundred years. Started in
(04:52):
nineteen twenty after the nineteenth Amendment passed. That was the
amendment enfranchising women, giving them the right to vote, which
they didn't previously have. There were many more rights that
they still didn't have after they got the right to vote.
But one of the things that I learned about the
league because I thought that pretty much it was there
(05:14):
solely to help with the suffragettes and becoming eligible to vote.
But actually the League really went into full swing after
the first election after the nineteenth Amendment passed, the federal
election in nineteen twenty, when, much to the dismay of
(05:36):
the organizers, only about a third of the eligible new
voters voted. And so they did a deep dive and
they said, what's going on here? We thought this was
something that people, once they had the opportunity, they just
they let their voice be heard. And it turned out
that a lot of folks didn't know how to vote,
(05:59):
didn't know what on the ballot, didn't know what their
vote would actually mean, and so it became something where
there wasn't quite the desire when the rubber hit the
road to actually go out there and vote, and then
some people just logistically couldn't get to the ballot. So
(06:20):
what the League was really about was giving people the
information that they needed to know how to register, to
know where to go to vote, to know what their
vote meant, who was on the ballot, what the issues were,
and so that they'd have the confidence, not just the right,
(06:40):
but the confidence and the access and opportunity and knowledge
to cast a vote.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
And so that was.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Something that really attracted me to the League as I
learned that that the mission really is if you want
a representative democracy that has meaning, it means that voters
need to understand what they're voting for and how to
do it and to get there and actually use their
(07:12):
voice and vote.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Thank you, And it's so striking how that is still
needed today and and thank goodness the volunteers like you
were keeping the League of Women Voters Dot alive and
there for people who are listening and can't see the
manner streaming on the video. The website for the League
of Women Voters is LWV dot org and there's all
(07:40):
kinds of information And I love that you you informed
us that it's nonpartisan. It's just it's to give people information.
And I want to just emphasize what you said about it,
so that when we have information, we can have confidence
(08:01):
and knowledge and you know, power knowledge and using our
voice is also you know, using our power.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, the League, I'm sorry I didn't interrupt you. Now,
the League isn't here to pick winners and losers. The
League wants the citizens to pick the winners and losers.
The League wants the citizens to exercise their assent so
that those governing can know that they are representing the
(08:35):
will of the people and that the directions they're taking
are not really oppressive or dictatorial, but actually where the
voters are hoping that their government will go. So the
League is not seeking to be partisan. It doesn't endorse candidates,
(08:59):
it doesn't endorsed parties. It looks at issues. In fact,
a major part of what the League does is to
study issues and then take positions based on those studies.
The League has principles that it advocates for. And then
(09:20):
when it looks at legislation, it's asking the question, is
this governance that will support those important principles? And is
this good governance? Is this sustainable? Is this in line
with the will of the people. That those are the
(09:40):
kinds of questions the League asks. And then when it
makes its suggestions about what measures on a ballot should
be endorsed in a vote, you know, the League recommends
vote yes on and then fill in the blank. It's
generally not a statement they make without giving a full
(10:06):
explanation for what the issue is and what they anticipate
the legislation will make happen over time in order to
promote good governance and you know, a better democracy for us.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
All that's great.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
You're by taking a stand and making recommendations, you're helping
us see the impact, the potential impacts or the logical
consequence impacts. If I vote knowing this, this is what's like,
this is what it's likely to if I vote yes,
that's what it's likely lead to. And that's so helpful.
I think that's very helpful to undecided voters and for
(10:56):
someone to do our research that can take so much
time when we have two or three jobs, and we're
raising families and or you know, or we're single parents.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
I'm always so grateful when.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
There's somebody, a reliable, credible organization does the research for us,
and I could decide.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, well, I know, I appreciate your saying that. So
the League has two major publications in every state, in
every election, and those two publications are something called Vote
with the League, and then they give you their reasons
for why they support certain measures, and again not candidate endorsements,
but what's on the ballot as far as legislative measures.
(11:38):
And then the other one is something called pros and cons.
So for me, it hearkens back to LeVar Burton when
he used to do the reading rainbow. Don't take my
word for it, do your own research. One what the
League puts out in pros and cons is, here are
the folks who have been so strongly in favor of
(12:01):
this coming to the voters to pass. Here are the
folks who are completely opposed to this passing. And so
you have the pros, you have the cons. It tells
you who the major contributors to those positions are. In
many cases, who the major financers of those positions are
(12:22):
and then basically the league takes a step back and says,
what do you think? But it presents the information in
a way that I think is intended to be digestible.
A separate thing they put out is something called an
Easy Voter Guide. It's not the pros and cons, it's
the short version. But people are busy. They recognize that
(12:47):
if they're going to give you a nineteen page, you know,
pamphlet on pros and cons, maybe you'll read it, maybe
you won't. The Easy Voter Guide that's kind of a
five to seven page pamphlet of you know, here's what
we think are the key principles. Maybe this will help
you come to a conclusion.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
That's great to know that you are transparent about what
the principles are and give all the background and information
so people don't have to wonder what's behind this stance.
Well it's spelled out, and I have questions about down
(13:30):
ballot voting, but I see there's another question here I'll
read that says, what's the difference between a republican a democracy,
and then of course a democratic republican?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd love to tell you that I
am an academic in government. I'm not trying to sidestep
the question, but I think I'm very likely to get
it wrong. I won't have the exact definition. In a
river of democracy, we all do recognize that we are
(14:03):
not all called into a room every four years and
put our hands in the air and say we want this,
we want that. We really do vote for legislators who
we ask to go through the myriad. I mean, we
have ten measures on the ballot, and if anyone who's
(14:24):
got the energy and the constitution to look at all
the different bills I'm just speaking California that have gone through,
and all the different committees that look at them know
that they are electing folks to go and represent what
they believe is good for us, and a represented a
(14:46):
representation of what we would like to see happen. I
don't know the formal definition of these things, to be
honest with you, so I don't want to misquote them.
But clearly we understand we are voting to have our
best interest served by the people who govern us.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, I appreciate that you just explain representative democracy versus
direct democracy. Where but that's why we pick representatives, which
is a really good segue to my question about I
think sometimes, especially when I was a younger voter, the
(15:30):
most exciting thing was to be able to vote for
the president of the United States. And it was a
while before I got more politically aware and gained more
knowledge and started seeing oh yeah, you know, reading and
doing research and looking at Frosen content impacts before I
realized how important it was how the representatives we choose,
(15:52):
whether it's a House of sentatives, our senators, that that
is so important to also research and know who you're
voting for and the issues they represent and how they
will vote and if they will vote to represent your views.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Well, absolutely, you know, we put a lot of emphasis
on the presidency and no surprise, I mean it gets
it gets all of our eyeballs, with all of the
ads and all of the interviews and all of the
travel and the months and months that go into a
(16:29):
presidential campaign. Sometimes it seems like these campaigns run for
the full four years, and we've heard the name so
many times, But what really impacts us so many times
day by day is our local elected officials, certainly our
(16:50):
state legislators passing the laws that impact our day to
day lives. And when we think about the presidents. See,
we have to go back to our simple Civics lessons
of understanding that presidents do not write laws. That the
(17:12):
laws are created up from the people in the Congress,
and that's what comes to the president's desk. Now, clearly
an administration tries to influence the direction that bills will take,
and the president has the power of the veto. But
the president can't create laws from whole cloth. I have
(17:36):
heard recently, We've all heard recently about executive action. But
if we go back to our civics lessons, this is
not the intent of where the power of government is
intended to come from. In fact, it's almost it's almost
(17:57):
a last step when Congress doesn't seem to be able
to get its act together. And that, I think is
where we should draw the most concern about divisiveness within
our government and polarization of parties, because the truth is
(18:22):
the good legislation, and I think everyone will say this
independent of party affiliation or candidate preference. Good legislation comes
from that hard work of people with different perspectives coming
together and hammering out the laws that govern us in
(18:47):
a way that minimally hurts marginalized people and maximumly benefits
the larger community and is sustainable and brings in that
critical element of the assent of the governed that we
feel like we have been well led and well managed,
(19:13):
well overseen, and that our laws are not frivolous or
inappropriately hurtful or marginalizing of people and communities. So we
need that working together, and we need to recognize that
(19:35):
when we vote, it's not just about the president, it's
about every other office that leads up to decision making
that will eventually fall to the president.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
That's such an important point because we need leaders who
understand that we need to have different points of view
that can listen and negotiate and work to gather voices
that unify and don't alienate and don't otherwise people.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
There's a.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Has been benefits everyone when we have a president who
actually wants unity and understands it will benefit the people
who actually really really cares about the people and would
actually try to unify anyone in any position to work
towards understanding.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
And working it out. Like I like what you said about.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
We all need different points of view to help us
develop critical thinking and say well and to compromise, and like, well,
I wanted all this, but I see the point of that.
I mean, when we have real representative democracy, that that
kind of thing, you know, America is missing that and
we're we're winning.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Give a back.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, And we know that compromise is not a bad word.
Compromise is often the first step to something much better.
We just need to figure out how to get there,
and oftentimes it turns out to be a much better
result than what any one group thought would be the
(21:26):
best answer. Because we all come with our own experiences,
we all come with our own understandings, and those are
very diverse in our world. And until we are confronted
by alternative perspectives in a respectful way, we don't have
(21:50):
the opportunity to rethink how it could be better. And
if we don't do that, then we risk having a
lot of damage on the way to a better solution.
I'm also very very mindful of the phrase united in
(22:11):
United States. We are all here for each other. You know.
I can hear the word California used as a pejorative.
I can hear the word Florida used as a pejorative.
It's all us, we are all in this together. And
(22:31):
being in it together is something we owe each other.
And I believe what's made us one of the most
successful and most stable and strong countries in the world
because we have that kind of commitment to each other.
(22:56):
And that has troubled me greatly when I hear any
suggestion that that's a mistake for us to have that
commitment to each other. We need to just dismiss those
who don't see it the way we see it. We
(23:16):
need to wonder and we need to ask why don't
you see it the way we see it? And are
what are we missing or what are you missing? What
do we owe each other? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
That's uh.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I think so many people are hungry for the ability
to do that. I mean, actually, one thing I teach
is communicating across differences. And it's amazing how many people
are scared to step out of their silos or expose
themselves to other views out of fear or just not knowing.
(23:55):
Like you know, fear sadly as a great negative motivator
and taking risks and trusting through just through dial I mean,
we're lucky. We're not at war in this country. We're
not being bombed, we're not being We're the ones. We're
the privileged ones. Yeah, all of a sudden know that
(24:15):
there's different standards of who's safe in this country and
who's safer and who's safest, but we are relatively so privileged,
and I just really strongly encourage us to take, you know,
dialogue and listen.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
And then I know it's hard, but I want.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
To go back to some notes I took when we
talked the other day, because this is so helpful. Let
me see if I can find my little notepage. Well,
you've already spoken to like the value of like nurturing
our representative democracy by like learning and doing critical thinking
(24:53):
and maybe trying to trying to read other points of
view if you're not.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Talking them.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I think human relations is really important in communicating cross
serviances and yeah, and uh, which it does motivate us
to vote, It does help and we have knowledge and
we have confidence. So I really feel like you have
touched on a lot of those points, and I wanted
to now if this is a good time to segue
(25:24):
into one issue that seems to be really important to
a lot of people. Again, I have skepticism about polling
and and I you know, but despite that, I have
noticed in any polls I see or come upon that
(25:46):
reproductive health rights and comes up a lot, is like really.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Really important.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
To so many voters, Republican, Democratic, independent, women and men
more men are paying attention and supporting and realizing this
impacts me too, Like I want to be a father
or a partner that's another woman partner, Like this is
my family too. It affects families, it affects the economy,
it affects our ability to choose how.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
We want to live.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
And it's it's just unbelievable that it's even a question
mark in this country that if we choose one candidate
there's lots of like sort of guarantees and promises that
female bodies will not have a choice over their lives.
It's just it's it's still blows my mind. But I
(26:41):
when it you're so good from your experience of breaking
down an understanding of what pro choice means and what like,
I think our understanding of abortion in America has been
really narrow for decades and has a strong bias of like, ooh,
(27:01):
you're evil person if you even think about it, Like
that's kind of the limit of some people's understanding of
what an abortion is and I myself have learned a
lot from physicians like you since Roe v Way was
overturned about how necessary what we call abortions are and
obstetrical care. And there's so many cases and times that
(27:27):
the general public does not understand or knows why this
particular medical intervention is critical. And you wouldn't want to
take it away from anybody if you cared about all
human beings.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Sorry, no, I feel as if two different elements of
pregnancy and obstetrical care have been completely conflated and mixed together.
And I think, as I mentioned to you before, I
(28:01):
do not expect the population as a whole to suddenly have,
you know, four years of medical training and another four
years of obstetrical residency and that kind of experience. But
there is a tremendous confusion. I think that people have
(28:25):
all under the term abortion, and medicine itself makes that
a little bit hard, because ending a pregnancy in a
medical in medical language is abortion. The end of a
pregnancy we used to refer to as therapeutic versus elective abortion,
but I think putting that language issue aside, we need
(28:50):
to think about what it is that people are trying
to communicate when they say they are pro life. What
it is that people are trying to communicate when they
say they are pro choice? And then what has happened
since Dobbs to medical obstetrics getting caught up in this
(29:15):
wide net of prohibitions about what is standard obstetrical care,
and that to me has.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Really been a.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Huge disservice to the nation. It's like we went running
at ninety miles an hour and we knocked over things
and didn't even look back. I think the intent of
the initial effort was to eliminate the opportunity to make
(29:51):
a choice, so a pregnant woman to make a choice
about whether or not to continue an unwanted pregnancy. I
think there are real personal religious, spiritual ideologies around that
that individuals have. And then there is a whole different
(30:14):
world of obstetrical care that deals with failed pregnancies, imminent miscarriages,
nonviable fetuses, pregnancies that risk the life of the mother
and require a whole host of medical decision making choices
(30:39):
that have because of some of these very very powerful,
overarching laws taken away the opportunity to make those obstetrical
decisions with the safety of the woman as a priority,
(31:02):
despite the fact that the pregnancy itself is failed. And
it's hard to talk about this without getting too technical,
but we are seeing these cases when they talk about
a decision being reached by the medical staff, the healthcare providers,
(31:23):
and the family about what the next steps should be
in this obstetrical care, and that decision being what has
been the standard of care as long as we have
had the medical expertise to intervene and save lives. And
when that decision is made, having that be faced by
(31:46):
a different decision by a legislator or a governor or
a judge that that course cannot be followed because that's
now illegal. I don't even know what to do with that.
I want to say, no one, I don't expect all
(32:09):
of America to have that medical expertise, but I certainly
know that that medical expertise has not been invested in
Our legislators are executive branch governors, a president, not our judges,
even at the level of the Supreme Court, so that
(32:31):
some of the decisions that are coming down that really
are impacting the lives of pregnant women, their families, their
children as to whether or not their children have the
potential of losing their mother to a failed pregnancy when
that did not at all have to happen if proper
(32:54):
care was obtained early on. These things are unconscionable. They
are not the best of what we should be and
can be. And so I think that what has to
happen is that everybody just needs to take a giant
step back and say, what was the outcome we were
(33:17):
looking for here with regard to obstetrical care. Now there
is a whole different realm that I look at as
rights and responsibilities. Okay, do I have the right to
make someone else's choice? What is my responsibility as a
(33:38):
fellow human being to permit people to make decisions for themselves. So,
as a physician for thirty five years, I can tell
you that a lot of the interactions I had with
patients did not always result in the patient making the
decision I would have made if I were them. But
(34:03):
I had an obligation to provide them with the medical
options that they could select from that would not jeopardize
their health, and that would give them the right to
their own integrity as they saw their life to be lived.
(34:24):
And then you stand back and you say, it's your life,
It's not my life. You need to make the decisions
that you'll make with all of the best information we
can all provide you. But then it is your decision
to make. And I think that one of the great
(34:47):
strengths of this country is that we do all enjoy
our rights. We go about our day every day deciding
what our families will look like, deciding what kind of
career we want to try to pursue, deciding how we
(35:10):
want to address and how we want to look, and
what kind of flags we want to fly in our yard,
who we want to vote for. These are our rights.
But you know, with rights come responsibilities, and the responsibility
I think first and foremost, is to make sure we're
also protecting other people's rights and giving them the choice
(35:34):
to exercise those rights in the world they live in,
following the spiritual guidance they follow, exercising the choices they exercise.
And you know, pregnancy is not the only place this happens.
This happens in permitting parents to make decisions for their
(35:56):
children's well being, permitting us, at the end of our
life to decide do we want that cancer therapy or
have we said you know enough, I've lived a good
life and now I'm ready to be comfortable, but I'm
ready to stop. Do we permit people to make those decisions?
There are many ethical, ethical questions we answer every day,
(36:21):
and I think what being in healthcare has taught me
is that I owe it to another human being to
permit them their integrity and to honor their integrity and
respect the decisions they make. Sorry, very long winded answer
to your question.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
No, that's beautiful. I really want you to reiterate it again.
But I want a distant to help listeners and viewers
have a deeper understanding of.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
The many, many, many.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Ways that pregnancies can can go wrong. I also support,
as you just so eloquently said, another person is to
make a choice, whether or not I could ever make
that choice, it's not relevant. What's relevant is that I
respect other people's choices over their lives because I am
not in their shoes. I do not have I do
(37:20):
not have their access to resources or lack of access
to resources. I do not know their stories, and it's
not my job to just like it's not my job
to tell like. I love the other examples you have,
like how long they can live or you know, or
how they can terminate their lives or anything that's not mine.
But I just thought it's just helpful for to hear
(37:43):
a few basic things like that you share with me
the other day, Like when there are physicians because you've
had that ten years of training or twelve or whatever
ends up being after you know, the residency and all
that stuff like ectopic prec disease.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
You know that's not it's.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Still not common knowledge when there and when you know
there's no there's no viable baby will be born. And
yet because doctors are so frightened too that they will
be become criminals there well you can say this better
(38:26):
than I can, but women are actually bleeding out and
you know literally like in the car or having to
go to another state, or you know, enforced pregnancies of
miners who were raped or who are suffering from ancest
at home, who are so trapped like and and so
there's because I'm thinking of a couple of things. If
(38:46):
you can give examples of the heartbeat law, and also
you mentioned so many unintended consequences of this heartbeat law,
and and then I sorry, I'm throwing out I tend
to throw out three questions at once, but I also
want to talk.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
About like when we do when our.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Elected representatives are aware, become aware, oftended, but they still
are pushing them for their own reasons. That becomes cruelty
to me. That is harsh. That's different from ignorance. Yeah, anyway, please,
can you say a little bit about like the heartbeat law.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, so there is an element of ignorance to a
six week ban, and people talk about it long before
people realize that they are pregnant. They're told that they
have to make this decision. But the biggest element of
ignorance in the six week ban is that so many
of the pregnancies that will go bad in the first trimester,
(39:49):
so many of the early miscarriages don't occur before six weeks.
They occur well after six weeks. So if there is
going to be a medical risk involved and an ectopic pregnancy,
I think people have heard about this now so much
that they probably could tell me the definition. But the
definition basically is a pregnancy that occurs outside the uterus
(40:12):
in a space that is incapable of sustaining the forty
week pregnancy that's necessary in order for a normal birth,
and because it is the inappropriate place, and because normal
pregnancy does not ensue following. What happens is that the
(40:32):
damage to the organs inside the maternal body is actually
life risking. Now, sometimes you can have a situation in
an early miscarriage where it simply miscarries. And that's what
I think most people are thinking about. They're thinking about
an early pregnancy that just fails to develop and results
(40:55):
in an extraordinarily heavy menstrul flow and then it's over.
Are saddened, people are emotionally distraught. They try for the
next pregnancy. That's a miscarriage. That is a miscarriage, and
that happens very very often when a pregnancy fails, and
many pregnancies do fail. We counsel women that you know,
(41:20):
that doesn't mean that you're never going to get pregnant again.
There is a very large percentage of pregnancies that do fail.
And having said that, we are all thinking of the
ones that need no medical assistance, that nature will take
care of. But that's not always the case. And certainly
(41:41):
an anac topic. What is happening there is it is
modern medicine that prevents the death or the loss of
future fertility for women who are and families that are
unfortunate enough to have this devastating law early in a pregnancy.
(42:02):
And those are the biologic graces compared to the other
failed pregnancies that occur much later on in development. So,
while we all know so many people, we are here
because we went through forty weeks of perfectly normal development
(42:25):
and that's why we're here. But we all know so
many people who go through a normal pregnancy, and we
come to think that obstetric care is, you know, going
to labor and delivery and someone will catch a baby.
But along the way, there are many things that may
go wrong, and medicine is there to try and preserve
(42:51):
and protect those viable lives and the maternal care that's
needed to sustain them, but also to recognize when there
is not a viable fetus, what is the best care
for that maternal care to get the mother through that pregnancy.
(43:15):
And that is not simple care that often results in
a delivery of a non viable fetus. Now, that non
viable fetus may have a beating heart, but it is
not going to survive outside that uterine environment. And we
(43:39):
are not clairvoyant. This is not witchcraft. We know this
from years of experience. What a non viable fetus and
what non viable fetal development results in in the end,
And there are many procedures that are specifically intended to
(44:00):
try and minimize the trauma that may accompany that failed pregnancy.
So premature rupture of membranes is something we hear about,
where what is a perfectly developing fetus to the best
of our knowledge without doing additional chromosomal testing. And maybe
(44:24):
one day our medicine will be smart enough to understand
why premature rupture happens, why premature labor occurs, why some
women go into life threatening hypertension and eclampsia. We don't
always know all of those answers, but we do know
that we have techniques that can save the fertility for
(44:48):
future pregnancies or save the life if necessary, of the mother.
And that may be the same procedure that ends that
pregnancy where the fetus is nonviable. Yes, it's a termination
of a pregnancy, and it's a termination that's made because
(45:11):
you have some choices here. There are going to be
patients who are going to say, I will risk my
future fertility, I will risk my life, I will continue
this pregnancy if there is a hope of survival for
that fetus, and they get the information that physicians and
(45:33):
good conscience provide and they make that decision. There are
other families that will say, I cannot risk orphaning my
other two children. I cannot risk no future possibility of
fertility to sustain this pregnancy that isn't going appropriately. And
(46:00):
from the perspective of spiritual guidance medical guidance, I think
that if that is the decision that is.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
Made in the context of that patient and that healthcare
provider acting in their best interest, I don't see where
government intervention has any right, much less obligation to interfere.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
In that realm. And that's what our laws have to
get right, because otherwise it has just been a huge
mess that has been made by inappropriate legislation which is
jeopardizing the lives of women and the future of families.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Oh, that is so eloquent, and thank you so much
for breaking it down. I find that incredibly helpful, and
I hope that's a really good information also for our
listeners and viewers and to just spread the word because
we're we need to be more educated when when something
like this is at stake, to think of your own
(47:21):
not only perhaps your own life at risk, your own fertility,
like that would that itself is a crushing blow or
someone you love, your your mother, your sister, your daughter,
your partner, your aunt. The compassion is so important, I
(47:42):
think to like it just seems like the way you're
speaking is with just very high emotional intelligence. Right, It's
not only medical background, but there's just something about something
really highly intelligent about compassion.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
And we'd like to think that we could vote for that.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
We can vote for leaders who care, who want to
unite us and not divide us, and who will support
individual human rights and not treat some citizens as less
than second citizens. It's just the consequences, whether intended or unintended,
are just too cruel to fathom and to.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Recognize that the people who care about that are coming
from a place of caring, not from a place of politics.
They're coming at it from their ethical and spiritual and
professional perspective about trying to do what they believe is
right and is you know, helpful and kind and compassionate.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Thank you, We have just a one minute, and I
just want to thank you for sharing your expertise and
two arenas about like how to make good government run
in the League of Women Voters, information that anyone can
access online at the Leak Ofwomen Voters dot org or
(49:19):
LWV and keep talking to each other and encourage encourage
anyone who needs the encouragement to go vote. Know what
you want and ask for it by getting educated around
any issues that concern you and your family, and please vote.
So thank you doctor Famula, thank you our engineer Rebel,
(49:43):
thank you our producer Dean Piper, and thank you for
the listeners and viewers. Really appreciate your spending time with
us and me. We all tune in next Wednesday, eight
pm Eastern Time and have enriching conversations and diversity.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Thanks again, thank you.
Speaker 4 (50:00):
An artic Gallet's speech an artic Let's speech of the.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
In ergic gall that speech enlargic gall Let's pitch on
the in logic gall That's pitch in logic gather Let's
speech on the
The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are
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We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
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(00:20):
for choosing W four c Y Radiotic.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Let's speak Sure.
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In Lot, Let's breech in Lot's.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
In Lott's Lot, Let in a lot of.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hello, and welcome to It's Your Voice, the show that
hosts enriching conversations and diversity. My name is Bihia Yaxon.
I'm a diversity educator and a Coreliament coach. I support
organizations and individuals in identifying patterns of bias that are
not serving them or the people they serve, and helping
(01:19):
them step out of it and cultivate new patterns which
are far more inclusive. They create belonging and actual equity
in a way that has.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Not been common yet. Getting closer to it over time.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I have a really exciting show tonight for those who
are interested in thinking about how to vote. I know
some people are not interested, some people are waiting for motivation,
some people want to learn more. And I have an
amazing guest, doctor Michelle Famula. Thank you for being out
(01:58):
here today, and we called the show Voters determine Government's
role over our lives. So if this interests you, tune
in and stay with us. Doctor Famula is not only
the president of a League of Women's Voters, she is
also a physician and going to read the bio. But Michelle,
(02:20):
come on out while I want to read your bio
because it's so interesting. And I was originally asking much
doctor Famula to be on to talk about the League
of Women's Voters, and then I found out about her
physician background. So we're going to be able to hit
two areas, two topics tonight.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
So I just want to read.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
That you are the president of the Davis, California Chapter
of League of Women's Voters. They joined in twenty eighteen
to help encourage voter participation and educate voters about their
voting rights and the impacts of legislative issues and vulnerable
populations in our communities. You are now a retired physician
(03:02):
and former medical clinic director with thirty five years of
experience and primary care of young adults on a college campus.
She's provided internal medicine, primary care, and reproductive and sexual
health clinical care. And you came to California in nineteen
eighty one and after medical training in New Jersey in
(03:23):
New York, and it's.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
After you retired.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
After she retired, she continues to teach in the UCD
School of Medicine, Department of Public Health Services, with a
focus on health care policy and prevention, prevention care, and
reproductive and sexual health. Thank you so much for being
here and for doing all that you do.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Oh, thank you. It's a pleasure. My career has been
a pleasure for me.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
That's wonderful to hear.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I went in to start first with you, letting folks
know a little bit of history about the League of
Women's Voters and the mission.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah. Sure, I'm happy to do that. The League's been
around for quite a while. It actually was something I
had heard about back when I was in my twenties
and was interested in what was going on in the country.
That certainly was the time of the Vietnam War, the
(04:28):
time of a lot of changes in women's rights and
civil rights, and the League was something I was aware
of as being something that citizens could participate in to
become more educated about what the voting issues were. The
League's been around for over one hundred years. Started in
(04:52):
nineteen twenty after the nineteenth Amendment passed. That was the
amendment enfranchising women, giving them the right to vote, which
they didn't previously have. There were many more rights that
they still didn't have after they got the right to vote.
But one of the things that I learned about the
league because I thought that pretty much it was there
(05:14):
solely to help with the suffragettes and becoming eligible to vote.
But actually the League really went into full swing after
the first election after the nineteenth Amendment passed, the federal
election in nineteen twenty, when, much to the dismay of
(05:36):
the organizers, only about a third of the eligible new
voters voted. And so they did a deep dive and
they said, what's going on here? We thought this was
something that people, once they had the opportunity, they just
they let their voice be heard. And it turned out
that a lot of folks didn't know how to vote,
(05:59):
didn't know what on the ballot, didn't know what their
vote would actually mean, and so it became something where
there wasn't quite the desire when the rubber hit the
road to actually go out there and vote, and then
some people just logistically couldn't get to the ballot. So
(06:20):
what the League was really about was giving people the
information that they needed to know how to register, to
know where to go to vote, to know what their
vote meant, who was on the ballot, what the issues were,
and so that they'd have the confidence, not just the right,
(06:40):
but the confidence and the access and opportunity and knowledge
to cast a vote.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
And so that was.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Something that really attracted me to the League as I
learned that that the mission really is if you want
a representative democracy that has meaning, it means that voters
need to understand what they're voting for and how to
do it and to get there and actually use their
(07:12):
voice and vote.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Thank you, And it's so striking how that is still
needed today and and thank goodness the volunteers like you
were keeping the League of Women Voters Dot alive and
there for people who are listening and can't see the
manner streaming on the video. The website for the League
of Women Voters is LWV dot org and there's all
(07:40):
kinds of information And I love that you you informed
us that it's nonpartisan. It's just it's to give people information.
And I want to just emphasize what you said about it,
so that when we have information, we can have confidence
(08:01):
and knowledge and you know, power knowledge and using our
voice is also you know, using our power.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, the League, I'm sorry I didn't interrupt you. Now,
the League isn't here to pick winners and losers. The
League wants the citizens to pick the winners and losers.
The League wants the citizens to exercise their assent so
that those governing can know that they are representing the
(08:35):
will of the people and that the directions they're taking
are not really oppressive or dictatorial, but actually where the
voters are hoping that their government will go. So the
League is not seeking to be partisan. It doesn't endorse candidates,
(08:59):
it doesn't endorsed parties. It looks at issues. In fact,
a major part of what the League does is to
study issues and then take positions based on those studies.
The League has principles that it advocates for. And then
(09:20):
when it looks at legislation, it's asking the question, is
this governance that will support those important principles? And is
this good governance? Is this sustainable? Is this in line
with the will of the people. That those are the
(09:40):
kinds of questions the League asks. And then when it
makes its suggestions about what measures on a ballot should
be endorsed in a vote, you know, the League recommends
vote yes on and then fill in the blank. It's
generally not a statement they make without giving a full
(10:06):
explanation for what the issue is and what they anticipate
the legislation will make happen over time in order to
promote good governance and you know, a better democracy for us.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
All that's great.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
You're by taking a stand and making recommendations, you're helping
us see the impact, the potential impacts or the logical
consequence impacts. If I vote knowing this, this is what's like,
this is what it's likely to if I vote yes,
that's what it's likely lead to. And that's so helpful.
I think that's very helpful to undecided voters and for
(10:56):
someone to do our research that can take so much
time when we have two or three jobs, and we're
raising families and or you know, or we're single parents.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
I'm always so grateful when.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
There's somebody, a reliable, credible organization does the research for us,
and I could decide.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, well, I know, I appreciate your saying that. So
the League has two major publications in every state, in
every election, and those two publications are something called Vote
with the League, and then they give you their reasons
for why they support certain measures, and again not candidate endorsements,
but what's on the ballot as far as legislative measures.
(11:38):
And then the other one is something called pros and cons.
So for me, it hearkens back to LeVar Burton when
he used to do the reading rainbow. Don't take my
word for it, do your own research. One what the
League puts out in pros and cons is, here are
the folks who have been so strongly in favor of
(12:01):
this coming to the voters to pass. Here are the
folks who are completely opposed to this passing. And so
you have the pros, you have the cons. It tells
you who the major contributors to those positions are. In
many cases, who the major financers of those positions are
(12:22):
and then basically the league takes a step back and says,
what do you think? But it presents the information in
a way that I think is intended to be digestible.
A separate thing they put out is something called an
Easy Voter Guide. It's not the pros and cons, it's
the short version. But people are busy. They recognize that
(12:47):
if they're going to give you a nineteen page, you know,
pamphlet on pros and cons, maybe you'll read it, maybe
you won't. The Easy Voter Guide that's kind of a
five to seven page pamphlet of you know, here's what
we think are the key principles. Maybe this will help
you come to a conclusion.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
That's great to know that you are transparent about what
the principles are and give all the background and information
so people don't have to wonder what's behind this stance.
Well it's spelled out, and I have questions about down
(13:30):
ballot voting, but I see there's another question here I'll
read that says, what's the difference between a republican a democracy,
and then of course a democratic republican?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd love to tell you that I
am an academic in government. I'm not trying to sidestep
the question, but I think I'm very likely to get
it wrong. I won't have the exact definition. In a
river of democracy, we all do recognize that we are
(14:03):
not all called into a room every four years and
put our hands in the air and say we want this,
we want that. We really do vote for legislators who
we ask to go through the myriad. I mean, we
have ten measures on the ballot, and if anyone who's
(14:24):
got the energy and the constitution to look at all
the different bills I'm just speaking California that have gone through,
and all the different committees that look at them know
that they are electing folks to go and represent what
they believe is good for us, and a represented a
(14:46):
representation of what we would like to see happen. I
don't know the formal definition of these things, to be
honest with you, so I don't want to misquote them.
But clearly we understand we are voting to have our
best interest served by the people who govern us.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, I appreciate that you just explain representative democracy versus
direct democracy. Where but that's why we pick representatives, which
is a really good segue to my question about I
think sometimes, especially when I was a younger voter, the
(15:30):
most exciting thing was to be able to vote for
the president of the United States. And it was a
while before I got more politically aware and gained more
knowledge and started seeing oh yeah, you know, reading and
doing research and looking at Frosen content impacts before I
realized how important it was how the representatives we choose,
(15:52):
whether it's a House of sentatives, our senators, that that
is so important to also research and know who you're
voting for and the issues they represent and how they
will vote and if they will vote to represent your views.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Well, absolutely, you know, we put a lot of emphasis
on the presidency and no surprise, I mean it gets
it gets all of our eyeballs, with all of the
ads and all of the interviews and all of the
travel and the months and months that go into a
(16:29):
presidential campaign. Sometimes it seems like these campaigns run for
the full four years, and we've heard the name so
many times, But what really impacts us so many times
day by day is our local elected officials, certainly our
(16:50):
state legislators passing the laws that impact our day to
day lives. And when we think about the presidents. See,
we have to go back to our simple Civics lessons
of understanding that presidents do not write laws. That the
(17:12):
laws are created up from the people in the Congress,
and that's what comes to the president's desk. Now, clearly
an administration tries to influence the direction that bills will take,
and the president has the power of the veto. But
the president can't create laws from whole cloth. I have
(17:36):
heard recently, We've all heard recently about executive action. But
if we go back to our civics lessons, this is
not the intent of where the power of government is
intended to come from. In fact, it's almost it's almost
(17:57):
a last step when Congress doesn't seem to be able
to get its act together. And that, I think is
where we should draw the most concern about divisiveness within
our government and polarization of parties, because the truth is
(18:22):
the good legislation, and I think everyone will say this
independent of party affiliation or candidate preference. Good legislation comes
from that hard work of people with different perspectives coming
together and hammering out the laws that govern us in
(18:47):
a way that minimally hurts marginalized people and maximumly benefits
the larger community and is sustainable and brings in that
critical element of the assent of the governed that we
feel like we have been well led and well managed,
(19:13):
well overseen, and that our laws are not frivolous or
inappropriately hurtful or marginalizing of people and communities. So we
need that working together, and we need to recognize that
(19:35):
when we vote, it's not just about the president, it's
about every other office that leads up to decision making
that will eventually fall to the president.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
That's such an important point because we need leaders who
understand that we need to have different points of view
that can listen and negotiate and work to gather voices
that unify and don't alienate and don't otherwise people.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
There's a.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Has been benefits everyone when we have a president who
actually wants unity and understands it will benefit the people
who actually really really cares about the people and would
actually try to unify anyone in any position to work
towards understanding.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
And working it out. Like I like what you said about.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
We all need different points of view to help us
develop critical thinking and say well and to compromise, and like, well,
I wanted all this, but I see the point of that.
I mean, when we have real representative democracy, that that
kind of thing, you know, America is missing that and
we're we're winning.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Give a back.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, And we know that compromise is not a bad word.
Compromise is often the first step to something much better.
We just need to figure out how to get there,
and oftentimes it turns out to be a much better
result than what any one group thought would be the
(21:26):
best answer. Because we all come with our own experiences,
we all come with our own understandings, and those are
very diverse in our world. And until we are confronted
by alternative perspectives in a respectful way, we don't have
(21:50):
the opportunity to rethink how it could be better. And
if we don't do that, then we risk having a
lot of damage on the way to a better solution.
I'm also very very mindful of the phrase united in
(22:11):
United States. We are all here for each other. You know.
I can hear the word California used as a pejorative.
I can hear the word Florida used as a pejorative.
It's all us, we are all in this together. And
(22:31):
being in it together is something we owe each other.
And I believe what's made us one of the most
successful and most stable and strong countries in the world
because we have that kind of commitment to each other.
(22:56):
And that has troubled me greatly when I hear any
suggestion that that's a mistake for us to have that
commitment to each other. We need to just dismiss those
who don't see it the way we see it. We
(23:16):
need to wonder and we need to ask why don't
you see it the way we see it? And are
what are we missing or what are you missing? What
do we owe each other? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
That's uh.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I think so many people are hungry for the ability
to do that. I mean, actually, one thing I teach
is communicating across differences. And it's amazing how many people
are scared to step out of their silos or expose
themselves to other views out of fear or just not knowing.
(23:55):
Like you know, fear sadly as a great negative motivator
and taking risks and trusting through just through dial I mean,
we're lucky. We're not at war in this country. We're
not being bombed, we're not being We're the ones. We're
the privileged ones. Yeah, all of a sudden know that
(24:15):
there's different standards of who's safe in this country and
who's safer and who's safest, but we are relatively so privileged,
and I just really strongly encourage us to take, you know,
dialogue and listen.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
And then I know it's hard, but I want.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
To go back to some notes I took when we
talked the other day, because this is so helpful. Let
me see if I can find my little notepage. Well,
you've already spoken to like the value of like nurturing
our representative democracy by like learning and doing critical thinking
(24:53):
and maybe trying to trying to read other points of
view if you're not.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Talking them.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I think human relations is really important in communicating cross
serviances and yeah, and uh, which it does motivate us
to vote, It does help and we have knowledge and
we have confidence. So I really feel like you have
touched on a lot of those points, and I wanted
to now if this is a good time to segue
(25:24):
into one issue that seems to be really important to
a lot of people. Again, I have skepticism about polling
and and I you know, but despite that, I have
noticed in any polls I see or come upon that
(25:46):
reproductive health rights and comes up a lot, is like really.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Really important.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
To so many voters, Republican, Democratic, independent, women and men
more men are paying attention and supporting and realizing this
impacts me too, Like I want to be a father
or a partner that's another woman partner, Like this is
my family too. It affects families, it affects the economy,
it affects our ability to choose how.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
We want to live.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
And it's it's just unbelievable that it's even a question
mark in this country that if we choose one candidate
there's lots of like sort of guarantees and promises that
female bodies will not have a choice over their lives.
It's just it's it's still blows my mind. But I
(26:41):
when it you're so good from your experience of breaking
down an understanding of what pro choice means and what like,
I think our understanding of abortion in America has been
really narrow for decades and has a strong bias of like, ooh,
(27:01):
you're evil person if you even think about it, Like
that's kind of the limit of some people's understanding of
what an abortion is and I myself have learned a
lot from physicians like you since Roe v Way was
overturned about how necessary what we call abortions are and
obstetrical care. And there's so many cases and times that
(27:27):
the general public does not understand or knows why this
particular medical intervention is critical. And you wouldn't want to
take it away from anybody if you cared about all
human beings.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Sorry, no, I feel as if two different elements of
pregnancy and obstetrical care have been completely conflated and mixed together.
And I think, as I mentioned to you before, I
(28:01):
do not expect the population as a whole to suddenly have,
you know, four years of medical training and another four
years of obstetrical residency and that kind of experience. But
there is a tremendous confusion. I think that people have
(28:25):
all under the term abortion, and medicine itself makes that
a little bit hard, because ending a pregnancy in a
medical in medical language is abortion. The end of a
pregnancy we used to refer to as therapeutic versus elective abortion,
but I think putting that language issue aside, we need
(28:50):
to think about what it is that people are trying
to communicate when they say they are pro life. What
it is that people are trying to communicate when they
say they are pro choice? And then what has happened
since Dobbs to medical obstetrics getting caught up in this
(29:15):
wide net of prohibitions about what is standard obstetrical care,
and that to me has.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Really been a.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Huge disservice to the nation. It's like we went running
at ninety miles an hour and we knocked over things
and didn't even look back. I think the intent of
the initial effort was to eliminate the opportunity to make
(29:51):
a choice, so a pregnant woman to make a choice
about whether or not to continue an unwanted pregnancy. I
think there are real personal religious, spiritual ideologies around that
that individuals have. And then there is a whole different
(30:14):
world of obstetrical care that deals with failed pregnancies, imminent miscarriages,
nonviable fetuses, pregnancies that risk the life of the mother
and require a whole host of medical decision making choices
(30:39):
that have because of some of these very very powerful,
overarching laws taken away the opportunity to make those obstetrical
decisions with the safety of the woman as a priority,
(31:02):
despite the fact that the pregnancy itself is failed. And
it's hard to talk about this without getting too technical,
but we are seeing these cases when they talk about
a decision being reached by the medical staff, the healthcare providers,
(31:23):
and the family about what the next steps should be
in this obstetrical care, and that decision being what has
been the standard of care as long as we have
had the medical expertise to intervene and save lives. And
when that decision is made, having that be faced by
(31:46):
a different decision by a legislator or a governor or
a judge that that course cannot be followed because that's
now illegal. I don't even know what to do with that.
I want to say, no one, I don't expect all
(32:09):
of America to have that medical expertise, but I certainly
know that that medical expertise has not been invested in
Our legislators are executive branch governors, a president, not our judges,
even at the level of the Supreme Court, so that
(32:31):
some of the decisions that are coming down that really
are impacting the lives of pregnant women, their families, their
children as to whether or not their children have the
potential of losing their mother to a failed pregnancy when
that did not at all have to happen if proper
(32:54):
care was obtained early on. These things are unconscionable. They
are not the best of what we should be and
can be. And so I think that what has to
happen is that everybody just needs to take a giant
step back and say, what was the outcome we were
(33:17):
looking for here with regard to obstetrical care. Now there
is a whole different realm that I look at as
rights and responsibilities. Okay, do I have the right to
make someone else's choice? What is my responsibility as a
(33:38):
fellow human being to permit people to make decisions for themselves. So,
as a physician for thirty five years, I can tell
you that a lot of the interactions I had with
patients did not always result in the patient making the
decision I would have made if I were them. But
(34:03):
I had an obligation to provide them with the medical
options that they could select from that would not jeopardize
their health, and that would give them the right to
their own integrity as they saw their life to be lived.
(34:24):
And then you stand back and you say, it's your life,
It's not my life. You need to make the decisions
that you'll make with all of the best information we
can all provide you. But then it is your decision
to make. And I think that one of the great
(34:47):
strengths of this country is that we do all enjoy
our rights. We go about our day every day deciding
what our families will look like, deciding what kind of
career we want to try to pursue, deciding how we
(35:10):
want to address and how we want to look, and
what kind of flags we want to fly in our yard,
who we want to vote for. These are our rights.
But you know, with rights come responsibilities, and the responsibility
I think first and foremost, is to make sure we're
also protecting other people's rights and giving them the choice
(35:34):
to exercise those rights in the world they live in,
following the spiritual guidance they follow, exercising the choices they exercise.
And you know, pregnancy is not the only place this happens.
This happens in permitting parents to make decisions for their
(35:56):
children's well being, permitting us, at the end of our
life to decide do we want that cancer therapy or
have we said you know enough, I've lived a good
life and now I'm ready to be comfortable, but I'm
ready to stop. Do we permit people to make those decisions?
There are many ethical, ethical questions we answer every day,
(36:21):
and I think what being in healthcare has taught me
is that I owe it to another human being to
permit them their integrity and to honor their integrity and
respect the decisions they make. Sorry, very long winded answer
to your question.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
No, that's beautiful. I really want you to reiterate it again.
But I want a distant to help listeners and viewers
have a deeper understanding of.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
The many, many, many.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Ways that pregnancies can can go wrong. I also support,
as you just so eloquently said, another person is to
make a choice, whether or not I could ever make
that choice, it's not relevant. What's relevant is that I
respect other people's choices over their lives because I am
not in their shoes. I do not have I do
(37:20):
not have their access to resources or lack of access
to resources. I do not know their stories, and it's
not my job to just like it's not my job
to tell like. I love the other examples you have,
like how long they can live or you know, or
how they can terminate their lives or anything that's not mine.
But I just thought it's just helpful for to hear
(37:43):
a few basic things like that you share with me
the other day, Like when there are physicians because you've
had that ten years of training or twelve or whatever
ends up being after you know, the residency and all
that stuff like ectopic prec disease.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
You know that's not it's.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Still not common knowledge when there and when you know
there's no there's no viable baby will be born. And
yet because doctors are so frightened too that they will
be become criminals there well you can say this better
(38:26):
than I can, but women are actually bleeding out and
you know literally like in the car or having to
go to another state, or you know, enforced pregnancies of
miners who were raped or who are suffering from ancest
at home, who are so trapped like and and so
there's because I'm thinking of a couple of things. If
(38:46):
you can give examples of the heartbeat law, and also
you mentioned so many unintended consequences of this heartbeat law,
and and then I sorry, I'm throwing out I tend
to throw out three questions at once, but I also
want to talk.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
About like when we do when our.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Elected representatives are aware, become aware, oftended, but they still
are pushing them for their own reasons. That becomes cruelty
to me. That is harsh. That's different from ignorance. Yeah, anyway, please,
can you say a little bit about like the heartbeat law.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, so there is an element of ignorance to a
six week ban, and people talk about it long before
people realize that they are pregnant. They're told that they
have to make this decision. But the biggest element of
ignorance in the six week ban is that so many
of the pregnancies that will go bad in the first trimester,
(39:49):
so many of the early miscarriages don't occur before six weeks.
They occur well after six weeks. So if there is
going to be a medical risk involved and an ectopic pregnancy,
I think people have heard about this now so much
that they probably could tell me the definition. But the
definition basically is a pregnancy that occurs outside the uterus
(40:12):
in a space that is incapable of sustaining the forty
week pregnancy that's necessary in order for a normal birth,
and because it is the inappropriate place, and because normal
pregnancy does not ensue following. What happens is that the
(40:32):
damage to the organs inside the maternal body is actually
life risking. Now, sometimes you can have a situation in
an early miscarriage where it simply miscarries. And that's what
I think most people are thinking about. They're thinking about
an early pregnancy that just fails to develop and results
(40:55):
in an extraordinarily heavy menstrul flow and then it's over.
Are saddened, people are emotionally distraught. They try for the
next pregnancy. That's a miscarriage. That is a miscarriage, and
that happens very very often when a pregnancy fails, and
many pregnancies do fail. We counsel women that you know,
(41:20):
that doesn't mean that you're never going to get pregnant again.
There is a very large percentage of pregnancies that do fail.
And having said that, we are all thinking of the
ones that need no medical assistance, that nature will take
care of. But that's not always the case. And certainly
(41:41):
an anac topic. What is happening there is it is
modern medicine that prevents the death or the loss of
future fertility for women who are and families that are
unfortunate enough to have this devastating law early in a pregnancy.
(42:02):
And those are the biologic graces compared to the other
failed pregnancies that occur much later on in development. So,
while we all know so many people, we are here
because we went through forty weeks of perfectly normal development
(42:25):
and that's why we're here. But we all know so
many people who go through a normal pregnancy, and we
come to think that obstetric care is, you know, going
to labor and delivery and someone will catch a baby.
But along the way, there are many things that may
go wrong, and medicine is there to try and preserve
(42:51):
and protect those viable lives and the maternal care that's
needed to sustain them, but also to recognize when there
is not a viable fetus, what is the best care
for that maternal care to get the mother through that pregnancy.
(43:15):
And that is not simple care that often results in
a delivery of a non viable fetus. Now, that non
viable fetus may have a beating heart, but it is
not going to survive outside that uterine environment. And we
(43:39):
are not clairvoyant. This is not witchcraft. We know this
from years of experience. What a non viable fetus and
what non viable fetal development results in in the end,
And there are many procedures that are specifically intended to
(44:00):
try and minimize the trauma that may accompany that failed pregnancy.
So premature rupture of membranes is something we hear about,
where what is a perfectly developing fetus to the best
of our knowledge without doing additional chromosomal testing. And maybe
(44:24):
one day our medicine will be smart enough to understand
why premature rupture happens, why premature labor occurs, why some
women go into life threatening hypertension and eclampsia. We don't
always know all of those answers, but we do know
that we have techniques that can save the fertility for
(44:48):
future pregnancies or save the life if necessary, of the mother.
And that may be the same procedure that ends that
pregnancy where the fetus is nonviable. Yes, it's a termination
of a pregnancy, and it's a termination that's made because
(45:11):
you have some choices here. There are going to be
patients who are going to say, I will risk my
future fertility, I will risk my life, I will continue
this pregnancy if there is a hope of survival for
that fetus, and they get the information that physicians and
(45:33):
good conscience provide and they make that decision. There are
other families that will say, I cannot risk orphaning my
other two children. I cannot risk no future possibility of
fertility to sustain this pregnancy that isn't going appropriately. And
(46:00):
from the perspective of spiritual guidance medical guidance, I think
that if that is the decision that is.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
Made in the context of that patient and that healthcare
provider acting in their best interest, I don't see where
government intervention has any right, much less obligation to interfere.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
In that realm. And that's what our laws have to
get right, because otherwise it has just been a huge
mess that has been made by inappropriate legislation which is
jeopardizing the lives of women and the future of families.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Oh, that is so eloquent, and thank you so much
for breaking it down. I find that incredibly helpful, and
I hope that's a really good information also for our
listeners and viewers and to just spread the word because
we're we need to be more educated when when something
like this is at stake, to think of your own
(47:21):
not only perhaps your own life at risk, your own fertility,
like that would that itself is a crushing blow or
someone you love, your your mother, your sister, your daughter,
your partner, your aunt. The compassion is so important, I
(47:42):
think to like it just seems like the way you're
speaking is with just very high emotional intelligence. Right, It's
not only medical background, but there's just something about something
really highly intelligent about compassion.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
And we'd like to think that we could vote for that.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
We can vote for leaders who care, who want to
unite us and not divide us, and who will support
individual human rights and not treat some citizens as less
than second citizens. It's just the consequences, whether intended or unintended,
are just too cruel to fathom and to.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Recognize that the people who care about that are coming
from a place of caring, not from a place of politics.
They're coming at it from their ethical and spiritual and
professional perspective about trying to do what they believe is
right and is you know, helpful and kind and compassionate.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Thank you, We have just a one minute, and I
just want to thank you for sharing your expertise and
two arenas about like how to make good government run
in the League of Women Voters, information that anyone can
access online at the Leak Ofwomen Voters dot org or
(49:19):
LWV and keep talking to each other and encourage encourage
anyone who needs the encouragement to go vote. Know what
you want and ask for it by getting educated around
any issues that concern you and your family, and please vote.
So thank you doctor Famula, thank you our engineer Rebel,
(49:43):
thank you our producer Dean Piper, and thank you for
the listeners and viewers. Really appreciate your spending time with
us and me. We all tune in next Wednesday, eight
pm Eastern Time and have enriching conversations and diversity.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Thanks again, thank you.
Speaker 4 (50:00):
An artic Gallet's speech an artic Let's speech of the.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
In ergic gall that speech enlargic gall Let's pitch on
the in logic gall That's pitch in logic gather Let's
speech on the
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