December 4, 2024 • 51 mins
Felicity Carter is the founder of the Drinks Insider podcast, research and content consultancy, as well as Editorial Director of Areni Global, a fine wine think tank based in London. Previously, she was founding Executive Editor of The Drop at Pix, editorial consultant for Liv-ex, and Editor in Chief of Meininger’s Wine Business International. Carter is a versatile wine writer who tackles intricate topics with finesse, from the global business of wine to the connection between wine and health.
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The Connected Table is broadcast live Wednesdays at 2PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
The Connected Table Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-connected-table-live--1277037/support.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:21):
W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to the Connected Table Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
Young and David Ransom. You're insatiably curious culinary couple. We
love to share the stories of the people who shape
the world of wine, food spirits, hospitality, and publishing, and
we enjoy hearing their stories with you. We are really
(01:04):
excited to have a guest today who is really one
of the pre eminent journalists in the wine industry. The follows.
You know, we created a special series in this show
called Behind the Byline to spotlight journalists who are really
reporting on this industry as it is constantly changing and
constantly challenged, particularly well the entire industry is whether you're
(01:26):
selling and serving wine, food spirits. There are challenges and
great opportunities as well. And I would think that our
guest Felicity Carter has her finger on the pulse of
a lot of these stories. And we have been to
events where she has been an engaging speaker. We have
followed her writing regularly. She has an incredible background. She's
(01:48):
based in Europe where she's joining us. She's founder of
the Drinks Insider podcast and within that she has actually
started a special focus on wine and health, which is
a topic she's been taxed as the wine industry is
facing a lot of challenges with labeling and issues and
consumption is down, and we'll discuss it. She is also
(02:09):
the editorial directory of I hope this from pronouncing this right,
a Reny Global, a fine wine think tank headquartered in London.
Felicities have a long career in journalism and kind of
a really interesting one. Many in the industry know where
because she really shaped and served as editor in chief
of Mindnager's Wine Business International, which is really one of
(02:30):
the preeminent platforms and I must read if you want
to follow the global wine industry and still contributes there.
She also created She was the executive editor of The
Drop at Picks and has worked as a consultant in
a number of publications and before that. What's interesting if
you go to her site, you'll see that she's also
covered pets and funerals and of course food and a
(02:51):
lot of topics because as a journalist you need to
flex your muscle and be well versed in a lot
of topics. But she's best known in our industry for
her incredible and sayful reporting on wine. So Felicity Carter,
Welcome to the Connected Table.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh, it's great to be here and finally meet you
over the podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, yes, I think we were all together at Wine
to Wine last year, which is a terrific conference, and
we didn't go this year, but it's a terrific conference.
People are probably wondering, who don't know you? Where the
accent's from? So talk to us about your background.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
I am Australian, but I have lived in Europe for
sixteen years now, and when I first came, nobody could
understand a single word I had to say because of
my very thick Australian accent, and also because I talked
quite fast. So I've had to slow it down and
be a bit less Australian about the way I speak.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That's funny, that's kind of like how we are in
the Deep South. We had to slow down our pace
quite a lot. It's an adaptation. So you are what
brought you to Europe.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I got a job. So about eighteen twenty years ago,
there was a big interest in European pushing into the
English speaking world, you know, with globalization, and so the
result was hilariously bad films with European actors who didn't
understand the scripts they were speaking. There were terrible magazines
that would have half French and half bad and translated English.
(04:21):
But a German publishing house here mining has decided that
if they were going to do that, they wanted a
native speaker, and they thought maybe somebody from Australia or
New Zealand would be interested in working in Europe. And
actually I was I don't have visas for the rest
of the world, and I was like, yeah, I'd love
a one year contract working in Europe. So that's how
I ended up here. And one year turned into another year,
(04:41):
and there you go.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
That sounds kind of dreamy, I think, given the way
things are going here in the Nase States, that would
be like a dream situation for us too, right now.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Maybe a four year contract.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, maybe a four year at least maybe five. You know,
you've been a journalist for a very long time. Did
you always want to be a journalist? Just something?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I did not really, No, No.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
As a child, I had lots and lots of different ambitions.
I was going to be a doctor at one stage,
and I was going to be famous actorate as another.
But when I was a teenager, I think my mother
could see how things were going, and so she brought
me a subscription to Writer's Digest and I used to
read that assidiously. So by the time I was sixteen,
I think I was pitching stories, not very successfully, so
(05:23):
I guess I guess my mother worked it out.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
So interesting Felicity and I little bit you, David, But
I always wanted to be My parents were both writers,
particularly mother, and I was running around with a little
notebook as a child and using my pencil as an inner,
you know, as a microphone, and I still have all
those diaries. There was always a dream. I got my
first job at sixteen at the local paper, but then
(05:46):
you know, the career went this way and that because
you had earn a living, which is not always easy
to do as a journalist. But you've done very well
for yourself.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
The congratulatings, we all know it's a tip with that mind,
you're always for higher like all of us, and.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So well, we'll just note drinks insider dot com.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
You know, it was really funny. I was in Sicily
a few years ago and there were hot at the
Anti Prima and there was a whole bunch of influences there.
I was a guy who had taken up wine writing
in his retirement and he just sold his company for
sixty million dollars and he said to me, it must
be nice being a member of the elite. And I
went what And he said, yeah, you journalist, you're members
(06:38):
of the elite. And okay, that's a flipped definition from
somebody who rides at the point end of the plane,
but yeah, I'll go with it.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
You know, we're finding that quite a bit felicity. We
were in New York for a dinner. It was an
Allegerini dinner and the man next to me was clearly
he was older the meat, which means old, and he
was wine writing. He just picked up wine writing and
he had, you know, the corporate experience. I think a
lot of I hate to say this, I think a
lot of people are doing that there. They have other
(07:07):
jobs and careers. Maybe they sold out and they're retiring
into wine rating, which really kind of balls everybody else down.
And it's a challenge. Do you as a writer? How
do you go about pursuing stories? What is your do
you have? Do you focus?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
And we know we just at least amount of energy
as possible. I do a lot of people up on
zoo and go can I have a chat?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Please?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
No? So I I if I'm interested in a topic,
I tend to get obsessed by it and read everything
I possibly can about it. I don't often have a
lot of choice about what I'm going to do because
I've got you know, like for mining, as I have
to produce a certain amount off and they suggest things
that they want, so you know, I'm like a ropot.
I just go, yeah, sure, okay, I'll go and find
out about that thing. And I do. And then I've
(07:54):
got things that obsessed me at various times that I
start learning everything about I.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Think that's interesting. I find David's an editor for two magazines,
tasting panel on the sum Journal, and he has a
regular beat and carl On and gets aside I as
a freelancer of constantly having to pitch, which is exhausting.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I understand.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, Yeah, I actually kind of I kind of like
the fact that I get assigned stories because it takes
it takes a lot of the guesswork out of what
I need to do. Yeah, send me a story.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah. Things have changed.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
When I was, when I was a general feature writer,
it was a perfect job for someone who's complete diltonue,
which is what I am. You know, I'd see something
catch my attention, I'd say to an editor, can.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
I go on?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Can I go on the story about this? And I
go yes. But even as opportunities have dwindled, one of
the other things is that now people expect a lot
more expertise in an area. You can't just go off
and pitch the story about something that is interesting, no
matter how good a reporter you are. And I really miss.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
That, particularly a wine. Everybody wants sort ofations. Now they
want you to certified at some level, which can get
expensive when you go pursue certifications.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about the certifications. I think
for wine writers, I maintain and I always maintained as
an editor, it's not your job to be the expert.
It's your job to know enough that you can ask
the right questions of the experts. The more expert people get,
the more they typically want to show that expertise in
their stories, and the story becomes about them rather than
(09:29):
about whatever it is they're writing about.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
That's interesting because when I had a my former careers
in public relations because it paid more than writing and
I could write, and I was told by my boss
the same thing. You don't need to be an expert
in your client's industry. You need to be the expert
on why they've hired you.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah. Yeah, good point, Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, it was all humbling because I want to become
an expert everything, because when you're covering something, you get
so excited about it that you want to tackle it
and do the deep if you're really passionate, that's right. Yeah,
let's talk about what you're passionate about reading about right
now in the business, because you clearly you're following some
(10:11):
important threads, right now.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
So when I say I become obsessed, what I mean
is I become truly obsessed. And the thing that I've
started doing at the moment is every time I have
spent time, or if I'm in an airport, I watch
public health videos. I watch webinars from you know, because
everybody these days, you know, when they give talks to
each other, they put the webinar on YouTube, and so
I'm always I'm always going on YouTube going what is
(10:37):
eurocaut to today? What are these people talking about? And
so I spend a lot of time, and I think
I've I think I've read every public health document that's
come out of the UK or Europe in the last
ten years. I've actually run out of videos. So I
will at some point have to change my focus. But
that's what I've been focusing on.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I think it's an important topic. I became interested. I
was always interested in food. Food was my was food
before wine, wine and food. But I was representing restaurants
in pr and then I'm morphed into wine and it's
all integrated. But health became something I became passionate about
when I was diagnosed with breast cancer and I had
to do a hard reset and go did my career
make me sick? And so I became very passionate about
(11:24):
the food connection between food and not just what we
call primary food, but also secondary food, because the primary
food is how you take care of yourself in the
wheel and nurturing yourself through exercise and mental health support,
et cetera. And then there's what you put in your
body and the connection. And it's been in the news
a lot. There's a lot of debate the alcohol industries,
(11:47):
particularly wine issues, getting battered right now about it, and
you have really been proactive and taking a stand reporting
on it, particularly with your focus within your podcast.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, I mean, the cancer is the cancer is shoe
is something I'm looking at right now. I've I've spent
the last few months speaking to oncologists both on and
off the record. It's not something I really want to
get into because it's a complicated topic and the evidence
is not always clear. So I you know, I should
(12:25):
have written this story about wine didn't cancer months and
months ago. The deadline has wushed past, but I'm still
sort of I'm reluctant to write more about it until
I'm much more across the topic than.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I am, so I've tackled it. And you know, at
the end of the day, you know, if we paid
as much attention to French fries and bacon and older
processed food as we are to wine, I think it's important.
I mean, we live in Louisiana. Publicity. The obesity rate
down here is unbelievable. And today the New York Times
(12:58):
reported that obesity because it was like a startling increase
in the United States. Yeah, but younger, younger people and
women and yeah, and it's it's that is the bigger
health challenge for us in the United States. And you
go to Europe, you don't see as many fat people
and everybody drinks white. It's it's a bigger issue and
(13:21):
it's not worth tackling here. But we watch it with
interest as well. But we feel, you know, we talked
about it last night. We feel the wine industry is
getting a little bit of a fair poke when there's
so many factors in this situation about well, you'll.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Be pleased, you'll be pleased to know that the public
Health Lobby has the ultra processed industry and their sites.
So there was a report that was done in under
twenty ten or twenty eleven called the Commercial Determinants of Health,
and that has turned into a whole public health focus
on how commercial actors can influence health for good and
(13:58):
for ill. And there's four there's four areas which are
being targeted, alcohol, tobacco, process foods, and fossil fuels. So
don't worry, ultra process foods are in everybody's sites as well.
But the problem, the problem with all of these things
is that the evidence is extremely complicated and these are
very multi factorial. So it is a belief among everybody
(14:20):
that if people could just stop eating junk food that
the obesity epidemic would vanish, and that's actually not quite
what the evidence says. It's a lot more complicated than that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, it is a lot more complicated than that. And
because it's there's so many factors to what makes someone overweight,
and that was actually addressed in the article today in
the New York Times. Because there's the genetics, there's sedentary
and personally, I think one of the reasons that we
have had what I consider skyrack any obesity is not
(14:53):
just diet related, is that we have beencome attached to
our digital devices and we're not moving dren are not
moving like they used to. Everybody is more sedentary, and
that is a problem that needs to be addressed. In
the larger scope, people just start moving around and the
more a beeese you get, the less you move.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah, I think there's I think you know, there's a
lot of there's a lot of issues in life.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah. So you've done a great job covering it. And
it is a complicated topic, and you know it's really hard,
and I'm sure you find this. There's a lot of
these studies and research reports you have to really dig
deep to who see who's sponsoring them?
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Look, that's an interesting question. I think you know that
that question of conflict of interest is flung around a
lot at different people. The reality is is that if
the study is properly designed, and if it's properly published,
then in one sense, whoever sponsors it should not be
the issue. You should always deal with what does what
(15:55):
does the paper actually say? And was the paper well
done in some ways before you look at I mean,
of course you look at conflicts. Events of course are
really important. But I think I think sometimes that can
be a a derailing tactic.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Coming from wearing my former public relations into jiet So
research studies were a big tool to get press, and
that was usually in the pitch deck. We'll do a
study and a lot. Obviously, the study always had a
skew to it was always a legitimate study, but it
always was a way that would not disfavor of the client.
(16:32):
Which is why I'm always a little I always dig
deep and when I see reports, I read lots of
reports and lots of reports and lots of reports to
see what else is being said, because you can go
down a rabbit hole of all this.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Yeah, the scientific process should actually take care of some
of this. So when you look at you know, the
first thing you look at is where is it published.
So all journals have a sort of a status of
how much they're weighted, and so you know there's some
there's some publications which are just paper mills, which is
complete garbage, right, and anything that was published there you
would complete ignore. But so you know, you also look
(17:03):
at where it's published, who published it, who peer reviewed it,
and so on. I mean, you know, you can you
can pride it. I saw an absolutely garbage study that
was done a couple of months ago that was jaw
droppingly bad. But you know you should. If you're a writer,
you should be able to spot those things.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, David, I'll let you like I'm dominating, So it's usual.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Well you well, that's anyway needless to say. So, Felicity,
why don't you tell us when you started out writing?
Did you eventually come to wine or was wine one
of your focuses early on?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
No, I saw of fell into it. So so I
had worked as a copywriter at a direct mail company
that sold wine, and I didn't know anything about wine
at the time. I didn't drink, but they did something
in house wine training, and so like everybody with a
little bit of knowledge, I suddenly thought that I was
completely expert. So after September eleven, I got really interested
(18:02):
in foreign affairs, and that's when I went and retrained
as a journalist, thinking that I would graduate and I
would be a foreign correspondent. Maybe you get dropped into
a war zone. And I discovered, much to my horror,
that if you couldn't speak Arabic, Chinese or Russian, and
if you had zero experience, your chances of being a
foreign correspondent were about nil. But I was busy pitching
(18:26):
stories and I thought, well, I'll picture wine story because
you know, I know huge amounts about wine, and it
just I wish I didn't, But it just so happened
that I landed it inside a major metropolitan newspaper, and
so it was a really big break and the editor
really liked what I did, so I had to come
up with other things to pitch. So I used to
sit at my desk late at night reading what was
(18:47):
being published around the world, sort of thinking can I
find something that I could apply to Australia, And of
course the other wine writers worked out very fast that
I had no idea what I was talking about. So
that was that was a painful experience. Australians are like gladiators.
It's like entering the coliseum, so you know that, you
(19:08):
know that was that was just an appalling experience, and
so in order to fend them off, I had to
learn quite a lot about wine very quickly. So that's
how I that's how I ended up writing about wine.
But it wasn't it wasn't my focus. I was also
writing about other things as well.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
You know that you're you're lucky so many people dream
People always ask me, how are you going to how
do I get into wine. How do I break into wine?
And we fell into it separately and differently from different paths,
and that's actually how we end up meeting each other.
And I know from my end I cover other things
as well, where I think you need to be well rounded.
You know, you have to make a choice you want
to only specialize or be well rounded in other areas.
(19:47):
And I always like to have other fingers and other
things so that if something goes flat, I have other
options aside from wine. What other topics do you enjoy
covering at this point, Well.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
I used to do a lot of I used to
do a lot of science and medical writing at one stage,
which I really enjoyed. In fact, I had a job.
I had a freelance job a couple of years ago
working for a Sydney science communication agency, and I was
doing a series on a subject called translational genomics, which
is and looking at how people are trying to solve
(20:21):
very very rare diseases. And I found things like that
very interesting. Unfortunately, I should I should confess I lost
the contract because I put all the wrong doctors in
the home stories that they got from the store.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
The article that made me quit.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
The I got the bone people in the article about
you know, so, so it was it was like, you know,
they're all quite incorrectly. I got their research right, but
they were in the wrong order. So that was the
end of that.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
So it was a learning experience.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
It was a little a lot of work to be
had in medical writing, as the ads for that all
the time. But you really have to have a lot
of cred you know. Yeah, everybody wants more. Everybody wants
more credibility and credentials. It's it's harder now to break
in as a writer. As a journalist, I think.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Well, the other problem is that, as I'm finding, is
that more and more scientists are not allowed to speak
to the media. I thought this was just me because
I was, you know, trying to do a podcast called
Wine in Health, but actually I've been following some other
science rights and they're all complaining about it that medical
researchers and scientists now increasingly just won't speak to the media.
(21:24):
Their their universities and you know that their employees won't
allow them, which I think at a time when confidence
in science and medicine is dropping, is terrible. But it's
a problem, that's.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
That's a shame because I think it's so valuable. And
you know, what you know gives you strength, and your
knowledge is strength. And you know, when you're talking to
people who are scientists and medical specialists, if they can
help enlighten that those few people to change, make a change,
take better care of themselves and be aware. It's great
because there's so many factors right now out there in
(21:59):
the world, the disease and medicine and health that need
to be addressed. It's such a big area. Yeah, and
you know, and then we wake up every day here
in the United States. I don't know what it's like
in Europe, but you know, the drug commercials are all
over the place. There's like ten every morning.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah, I know. I mean that's a peculiarity of that market.
They do that in New Zealand as well, but everyone
else I think about it.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
I think about ninety percent of the commercials on television
or drug commercials.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
But yeah, because they're they're targeting.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Here in the United States, lawyers of course.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, they're targeting people who are you know, and there's
a lot of misinformation floating around there. So it's it's
I think it's important for anyone to follow find and follow.
Whether you're in a journalist or someone who wants to learn,
you've gone to really cherry pick and find media outlets
(22:55):
who have respect and that have evidence space reporting versus
all the garbage that comes in through the digital devices
these days, and it's hard.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I was in the United States a couple of weeks
ago and I was in my hotel room when I
was watching television, and those pharmaceutical kids as came on
and I was thinking to myself, huh, I thought that
sounds really cool, and then they got to the then
they got a bit about and this will Kill You and.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Yeah, claims were always fun to listen to. Well, we laughed,
that's when I meet the TV.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
You know, between that and the dog food commercials. I mean,
you know, have you seen all the dog you commercials?
Oh my gosh. We obviously watched the Morning News. There's
like Farmer's Dog They are gourmet dog foods and they're
spending a lot of money to the point where the
food actually looks delicious. And a friend of ours who
actually worked at the white Business's wife posted that she
(23:51):
caught him actually reaching for a container of the dog
food and she had to label it no it's for
the dog.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Well, do you know you asked me what stories I
like to do. Actually, I'd love to do one on
pet food because for a while I used to follow
all the Mars Pet Laboratory scientists on social media and
eaves dropping on their conversations, and there's something like ninety
scientists working on cat food. And I was like, what's
the big problem in cat food that you're trying to solve.
And one of the big problems fetrying to solve is
(24:20):
why do cats like tuna choose their favorite food? And
I was like, because it's delicious, I guess, And no,
because tuna's are deep water fish, so no cat would
ever have been able to eat it. So why did
they develop a taste for I'm like, I'd like to
go into view them about that. But of course that's.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Interesting ant poison. Remember we ate up by the ant
poison we had taken the doctor because it was like sugar.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
So cats would like cats would like Chilean sea bass
as well.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Well, you know it's these commercials. There's definitely a story
in it because I wanted I mean, first of all,
how did these pet food companies get all this money
to advertise on prime time because it's on.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
People put it a lot of money into their pets.
That's what you're unsavable. But the thing I've just goover
is pet food has to be human grade food, so
you know, you can actually you can actually eat it.
It probably looks delicious and it probably is delicious.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
So I tried. I'd like to get a panel of
pets to see what they have to say about this topic,
because the food does look good, and when they would
describe it, I'm like, God, you know, if I really
did have a lot of money, maybe I'd go try
the pet food because it's probably very nutritia.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
You know, I've heard people eating baby food for the
same reason, but it's a whole other topic. But the
pet food thing just stands out because it rivals pharmaceuticals
in terms of what is in our TV every morning.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
So you both, obviously you both actually have written for
pet magazine. Melanie you wrote for a magazine called Animal
Fair here in the United States, which was a fun one.
And Felicity you wrote for a magazine called Bark.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Yes Bark with an exclamation mark at the end.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yes I did, and it was one of.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
My absolute most favorite jobs. I really I really loved
reporting on it. I would happily become an animal reporter,
you know, because you get into such interesting situations. I
remember going to a nursing home to watch therapy dogs.
I spoke to a I spoke to a US marine
who smuggled a dog out of a roart because if
(26:13):
you're in the army and not allowed to know frightnize
with street animals, and he'd done it, and things like
that that were very interesting. I spoke to her. I
remember speaking to a veterinary assistant who told me that
the biggest problem we had with dogs was honey socks
they swallowed, and how Hanning told me all about how
you extract socks from their cuts. I love those conversations.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I had a friend whose dog swallowed a frisbee and survived.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I thought they were a big dog or a small frisbee.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
There was a very big dog and probably a small frisbee,
but I know my pet. Reporting with celebrities and their
pets it was a little more liberty. But then I
did something. I literally did a promotion around the Year
of the Dog for Chinese New Year with a Chinese
restaurant that really became awful from me and it should
be in the book. One day because they didn't throw
out the fortune cookies. We did, and I was having
(27:05):
dinner with some friends afterward and we got our fortune
cookies and they tasted funny. They tasted really funny, and
they were the dog fortune cookies. They were the pet
fortune cookies. And I knew it because the fortunes inside
were pet related, like you know, wait for the.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Mailman, and ants were eating.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Them, and I'm and my dinner guests were eating him.
I'm like, waite, you're buried delayed.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
What are the fortunes?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Then? Yeah, well it was like you know, get ready
for the mailman. It was it was like stuff like that,
or you know, go grab a bone. And I was like,
this is very different from me. You will have a happy,
long life. And they were very pet focused and I
was like, they tasted okay, they just didn't they lacked
the sweetness. But I was like, wait, I don't think
we should be eating these, and then everybody started laughing
(27:55):
and barking at me.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
But anyway, well, the big question is did the moment
bring you any No?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I wish well, it actually the client yelled at me
because I said, I said to him, I think you're
serving the dog fortune cookies to your guests. He's like,
we would never do that. It's a call anymore. They
never listened, but it was pretty funny. But I think
it's a great area to go into. And you write,
people spend a lot of many other pets and they
take them traveling and they feed them the square mat
(28:22):
food and it's a big industry and probably lucras of Yeah, yeah,
it's a very.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Big industry, and it's just it's kind of hilarious industry too.
So I'd be very happy to go back to reporting
on that.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Well, you always can, you know, you can always wear
many many hats. Many many people do.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Oh Sadly, there's not that many outlets anymore for the
dog relations or cat related you know, I'm Catholic hat world,
he peaks, I'm happy.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Well, you know what, if it doesn't exist, plant the
seeds and grow it. That's what I always say, you know,
and you know what, there is too many outlets about wine. Yeah,
that's right, So let's just talk about where where the
where the fields need to be gleaned. Uh, it's hard
everybody's you know, and then you add on their influencers.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Have you been on traish that I wish? So I
cut down the one made you please?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah? Well you know so Kara and McNeil did the
huge lament over the demise of wine writing back in
before she did come over October. But she was very
you know, she was sad about And what was really
shocking is she was asked to do a huge rose
detail for news was it Newsweek or US News at
one of those and they said, and she said, you know,
(29:34):
here's my fee. And they she said, what is the fee?
And they said, no, we want you to do it
for free. So one of the challenges I have observed
is there are too many people willing to work for
no money to get their foot in the door in
a byline or for sub pay, which brings down the level.
It's not just one, it's all journalism, and it seems
(29:56):
like everybody needs to buy in together and say this
is not acceptable, we won't accept that. What are your
thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Look, I obviously I want to be paid far more
than I am, and I've seen you know, I'm a
member of various journalism organizations and many people try and
do this. Many people try and be transparent about pay
and so on. Having been an editor and knowing what
it's like working for publishers and with budgets you actually have,
(30:27):
you sometimes have very little control over it. And the
reality is is the media industry is in a terrible state.
It's really in a terrible state. So in principle, I
think is the way to stay afloat is to be
able to do something that other people can't do. You know,
(30:49):
if what you want is you want to write about
a nice lifestyle things, well there's lots of people that
will do that for free.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, tackle the more difficult topics. Nobody wants to tackle
technology or wine and technology, or you did an article
it's a managers I think now, which is a personal
interest of mine, on all the wine companies, particularly the
United States, they are selling to venture capital. Venture capital
(31:17):
is taking over the industry and it's fascinating. And I
was talking at that same Allegrini dinner. I was telling
because they had a big, you know change there. I
was talking about it to them and they were listening
with fascination when I told them about the duck Corn
deal and it seems like everybody wants to jump on
the bandwagon, but it's not that easy to do, as
the article explains. But I mean that seems to be
(31:42):
a big topic that's going to be moving forward because
as you know, all these people are aging. You know,
they all started their wineries in the seventies, and they
have to have an exit plan unless the next generation
or the next generation want to continue. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
I mean, you know, the quase is always at the
moment is what's happening. Is the downturn structural or is
it cyclical? And I don't think the answer is very
clear that it's structural. But you know, the you know,
I've been reporting about the wine business for a long
time now, and you could see that the expansion had
gone too far. You know, there were too many vineyards
(32:19):
in marginal areas, too many lifestyle people who'd go into
it with no business plans, too many you know, the
Rabobank wrote it, which is the agricultural bank here in Europe,
wrote a report about ten years ago, I think, and
they said there were lots and lots of wine businesses
in Europe that had gone broke, and they didn't realize
it because they were still making enough money to eat.
(32:39):
They weren't necessarily paying the salary. You know, one member
of the family was bringing in money somewhere else and
they hadn't actually realized that the company no longer functioned
as a company. So I think you can only you know,
it's that famous economic things. You know, things will go
on until they can't, and I think we've hit the
point where they can't go on. Why.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
I think there was definitely a huge burst in wine
production over the last twenty years or so, everybody trying
to get into the game, and we saw that all
over Europe as we were doing and it's obviously happened
a lot here in America. Fifty states make wine now
here in America, and there were four when my family
got into the wine business, four states really that did
it on it on a professional scale. So I think
(33:23):
there has to be some type of drop and return
to where it was at some point for it to
really make a success of itself. At this point, it's.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Typical with a lot of industries. Everybody jumps I call
it the bandwagon theory. Everybody jumps on the bandwagon because
they see success and they want to follow that path.
But then suddenly it's everywhere. It's like in food. I'll
never forget when many years of kish was like the thing,
and suddenly the keish effect hit, you know McDonald's or
(33:52):
you know fast food, and it's like suddenly it wasn't
special anymore. It was everywhere and or the corosts on.
It was the same thing. But you suddenly see it everywhere,
and then there's too much of it and then people
and your people get fickle and disinterested and move on
to the next thing.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yeah. In in Sydney in the late nineties, that equivalent
was the sticky date pudding, which is an Australian dessert,
and I remember, I remember there was a Sydney wanting
Harald food critic who started unparaphrasing, but he started the
review was and when something like the first fifty sticky
date puddings were great, you know, then everybody had it.
(34:28):
Now now you can't sit anyway. Yeah, But I mean
the other thing that's changed is, you know, the wine
industry told people for years to drink less but better,
and people are actually doing that. So a lot of
a lot of the pain in the industry is being
at the you know, the high volume lower quality end.
It's very awful for the people involved. But some of
(34:52):
that I think he's probably necessary, you know, like I've
never liked the fact that, you know, Australia exports some
of its most precious commodity, which is water, in cheap
bottles of wine, you know, those highly irrigated, very commercial,
bottom end wines. I'm sorry for. I think there's a
lot of pain around that, but I'm not sorry to
see the end of that.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Well, first of all, in the first cup, be careful
what you wish for. Drink more, but less. But we
are all for that. You know my attitude about consuming wine,
Consume it in moderation with great pleasure, and up your
game and drink better wine and don't settle for the
you know, I'm going to say, a lot of the
crap that we see in supermarkets and it's the only
(35:35):
thing that's available, and many there's food deserts. This is
like a wine desert because it's the same brands over
and over again, and people don't know any better, and
they're manufactured, and they're manufactured, and the people don't like
them and say I don't want to drink anymore.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Well, not only that, but those wines are very homogeneous
because all of the big companies benchmark against each other.
So something successful, they go and they kind.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Of copy it.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
So even if they all look like different brands, they're
increasing similar as well.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, like the cheap rose effect. It's crazy, that's kind
of way we're talking about. Everybody sees a success and
they jump on the bandwagon and suddenly there's just too
much of it and none of it's any good and
people who are then they can't sell it. Yeah, the
the and I believe that in the venture capital world,
which I'm watching with interest, because the numbers are good,
(36:23):
they're going to move on to something else. The venture
capitals will find the next big thing, and that's that.
You know. It's it's like it's been like that with
a lot of industries, and we'll see what happened. I mean,
I think twenty twenty five this is a twenty twenty
fourth shure. I think twenty twenty five is going to
be a pivotal year in the wine industry for so
(36:45):
many reasons. You know, we're still dealing with the consumption
factor and it's you know, consumption is down a lot
of places, including Europe. Uh, people you know, young people
are drinking other things. I asked you before the show
about the cannabis and THHC here like, and we're in
New Orleans. You can go to the supermarket and get
(37:06):
THHC infused hand drinks and people buy them and they're
cheaper and you get your buzz faster. If that's how
you if you're drinking for that reason. Uh, and you'll
we have friends with me. I don't drink wine or alcohol,
but they'll drink THHC and to use beverages.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, you know, it was really striking the last couple
of times I've been to New York. Can walk around
the street and you can get high just from all
of these.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
It's everywhere. It's a shock to our system too. That
was like one of the things when we came back
to New York after the This is so funny. We
came back to New York when the city opened up.
I said, what do you notice different besides all the
boarded up buildings? I said, we both agree we smelled
a lot of cannabis and we smell the marijuana. And
David say, and none of the women wear bras.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Those are the two things I took away from the
pandemic walking around New York City when everybody was smoking
pot and none of the women were wearing bras.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
And and and all my friends had gray hair, like
nobody colored their hair anymore, and I recognized my friends.
The pandemic changed a lot of things, and I think
I personally thankful to see that a lot of the
issues about consumption. And it was in the New York
Times article again today, people just drank more during the pandemic.
They didn't have any to do. They drank more. Our
little buddy Kenny at our little local shop, and where
(38:31):
we were living in the huts of allies, it was
like Christmas every day, et cetera. And I think, just
you know, like when we moved to New Orleans, we
ate a lot of poe boys and then one day
we gained ten pounds.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
You a.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Pop boys, you got to come visit the sandwich of
New Orleans. Sandwich.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Tell me, I know, I went to sleep.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
So there was a strike. There was a rail workers
strike back in the day, a dock workers strike. It
was actually a rail workers strike, and the guys were
not working. And there was a local sandwich shop who
supported the strike and said let's feed these pole boys
a sandwich. And they made a sandwich. At the time,
it was a bread with potatoes in it, and they
(39:13):
gave them away for free to the people who were,
you know, starving down on the docks, and the name
took and now a poor boy. It's a poor boy
sandwich or po boy is an iconic sandwich.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
And it can have many different ingredients from frim to
roast beef to whatever you want it to be. But
all the sandwiches in New Orleans are called.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I mean, they even had We went to the Poor
Boy Festival and Ian McNulty, the local food, food writer
and restaurant critic, does a Poe Boy bracket like they
have like basketball brackets. They have po Boy bracket to
see who has the best poor boy. I mean, people
in New Worlds are obsessed with poor boys. I'll send
you a link. But they're very special. There's a there's
a term, you know, there's muffalattas. There's stories behind a
(39:55):
lot of the food here. It's it's very interesting, just
like in just like in Australia. I've been to Australia.
David has it, but it's in London with what are
those called the ha what are those sandwiches called in England?
The not the Cornish pies but the Tasty's, Hasty's Hasties, Hasty's, Hasty's, yeah, Hasty's.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I always liked bubble and squeaked. That was my favorite
one to talk about and spotted Dick for a while.
For a brief time, I represented the London Tourist Board
and my job was to help promote dining and help
elevate the image of dining in London. It was one
of the greatest gigs. My job was just invite writers
over to go eat. Oh wow, when was that in
(40:40):
the nineties and then it being a cover story on
in Bonepetit magazine. It was just this crazy in the
in the nineties when I was really driving really well
with all sorts of crazy things, and I was like
literally hosting and bringing journalists over, you know, let's go
dine around London. It was dreamy, yeah, imagine, yeah, yeah,
(41:01):
it was.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
It was.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
I kind of missed those days, but you know, life
goes on, right. Is there a uh is there someone
that you've loved to enter reader you haven't yet? And
why she Grant?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
I've been watching him on Instagram and that guy is
so funny and he and he's so rude. I would
like to talk to him. That's who I want to
talk to you. I want to ask him. I want
to ask him to give me a list of all
the things that annoy him, because apparently loads of things
annoy him and they're all very funny.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
What's your favorite Hugh Grant movie?
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Now? Now, I can only tell you the ones that
I can remember. The name that pops into my head obviously,
see for when he's the funeral after we get off
this call, I go, oh, no, I didn't mean that
when I meant that one. But it's my favorite interviews
with him are the Instagram interviews. He's he's on couch
and people just ask him questions and he just explains
how annoyed he is at that particular thing. It's great.
I have.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
I have a thing for Hugh gret I've always had
a thing for British men, as David knows, dated one
for a while and I think they're really handsome. But
they do have this one fun wonky humor. And so
four Weddings at the Funeral notting Hill actually and Love Actually,
which was our Christmas movie weligiously.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
I wouldn't ask him anything about Hollywood, anything about his
acting career. I just sit down and go, I want
to talk about all the things that really annoy you, Hugh,
and off we would go and.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
That and there's you're in right there.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
I think that'd be great.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
You should just you know, it was just in New
York this week on the Stephen Colbert Show.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
It was I missed it. I must have fell asleep.
You know my attitude about writings if I want to,
and my mom taught me this as a writer. My
mom always said, if you want to learn about something,
you want to get in. She was she's always trying
to get money out of people for her charity. So
she'd go interview CEOs to learn more about their job,
and that was her tactic, is to get in the
other way versus ask them for something, but develop a relationship.
(42:56):
But I just I am fairly fearless. I'd like to
just reach out to whoever and say I just really
want to interview you, and hopefully they won't do something
like what are your numbers? Ahead When people say that,
like what are your numbers? Can you hard?
Speaker 3 (43:10):
It is getting harder and harder and harder to interview people.
And the other thing is people want all the questions
in advance, and so I frequently make up some questions
and send it, and then I don't necessarily ask those
same questions when I'm finally talking to people. But everything's
very managed and very controlled, of course, which to be
a very good interview.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Well, and that's a lot of that's because you're working
through the PR company and they want to have control.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
How do you handle one of the publicist wants to
be on the interview.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Look, it depends what it is. If it's something that's
mostly I don't care. If it's actually if I'm recording
a podcast, I say to them, no, you know, I
can't have somebody because I don't want to pay money
to edit you out, you know. I tell you what
I don't mind is sometimes I've interviewed people as a
PR person on the call and I and I stopped
(44:00):
asking the questions I want to ask, and I can
see the opposit and get ready twitching.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I don't mind that that happened with me. With the Doctor.
We were interviewing her and she was a well known,
she was on the show The Doctor, so she was
like really famous, and I was honored she was on
it was my other show for your established too, and
she would We were having a great rapport and then
suddenly I could hear the publicist whispering in her ear
(44:26):
and just about I have a no, we have a
no publicist. No one sits in, No thirty parties sit
in because I don't want we want the conversation just
to be free and easy on a podcast and not
have anyone like queuing people in print or in person.
It was a different ballgame. It wouldn't bother And sometimes,
I mean I had a lot of clients in the
time when I was doing Pure where they had terrible English,
(44:48):
so I was there to help them with, you know,
explaining this self sometimes because they would say something that
was totally not what they met. But I think it's
important to for particularly television podcast to just be one
on one with your guests. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
I think what really strikes me in the age of
the influencer is not not in wine because people typically
many people know who I am when I interview Pivlet
and Wine. But if I'm if I'm in another area
where people don't know me, and this doesn't happen in
science and medicine, but it happens in other things. I've
noticed more and more younger PR people imagine that I'm
an influencer who can be told what to do. I
(45:26):
actually get instructions on what I should ask them and
how it should be done. And people then sometimes look
at the article and they send in corrections. So can
you change the headline we would prefer this, or you know,
can you run it on this date to coincide with
the lawnch like I don't quite understood what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
We call that paid content. We have a separate platform
for that.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
Exactly when you're a partnership, if you'd like to preview
the article before I publish it, then you can pay
me to writer.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah, that's that is when it becomes a partnership or
contact that's created for somebody. And it's very church and state,
and we're very we're very transparent about that when we
get pitched what we will and will not accept on
a We're very clear with this show. It's leaders thought
leaders in the industry. We're not here to talk about
new hires or new vases. We're very clear about and
(46:17):
that's why it's by invitation. We think really long and
hard and like you know, we do said, yeah, well,
we create questions. It's also to prepare ourselves because we
do and you do too. You do a lot of
prep and reading up and they are nights you're listening
on headphones of podcasts to prepare for talking to your guests.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. I do a huge amount
of preparation before I do something. I try to make
sure I have listened to all their interviews, so I
ask them questions, like you know, because most people who
get interviewed a lot have a script and so whatever
you ask them, they'll give you the script and answer,
and so I try and make sure I can ask
a question. It doesn't doesn't bring out the script. It's not.
(46:56):
It doesn't always work, but sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Talk to us about the role you have with am
I p areni Global.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
Arena Global, Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
What tell us about that?
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Arena is a really interesting group. It's a it's a
fine wine research company founded or co founded by Pauline
Bickhard who's from Burgundy. She's a french woman now living
in London. We do a lot of research into you know,
what markets are emerging as places for fine wine. You know,
(47:27):
we have a lot of events where people get together
and talk about it. And actually, Pauline was really smart.
We had a we had an event about oh, I
think it was about five years ago. It was in Champagne,
and so Irenly often invites people from high level, people
from other industries to come and give their perspective. And
I remember we had this guy who worked in the
oil industry and at the very end of we had
(47:50):
a great time in Champagne, and the very end of it,
he stood up and he said, you people have finished
and we were like what. And he said, look, in
my lifetime, we used to be the good guys. We
used to be the people who kept the lights on
and kept the heaters on and kept people moving. And
now we're the villains. And he said, it's coming for
you and you people have no idea what's about to
hit you. And that's always I think it was in
(48:11):
twenty eighteen he said that that's always stayed in my mind. Yeah,
So we think a lot about think a lot about
what you call the social license to operate.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
It's interesting. I'm on the state now, a really dark
global and there's a lot of it's membership. It looks
like it's a membership group, but a lot of topics
being covered, obviously the wine in health, but also many
other topics of interest. Is it like the Wine Market
Council or is it different than the Wine Market Council
they do.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
I probably don't know enough about the Wine Market Council
to talk about it, but it's so we create a
lot of limited series This year. Our big project which
we did a limited series podcast on the Distribution System
book from what I call The Plus, which is going
into sort of the world's fine wine distribution system and
not with publications to go because what we what we
(49:03):
realized is that more and more wine students need to
know about these things and there's no resources for them.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
It's a very global approach. I mean, the Wine Market
Council is also a great group with touch is involved
with and it's very good and doing right now. They're
tackling to trying to help the US market be better
at marketing their wines and dealing with issues coming up.
I'm sure the tea word tariffs will be coming up soon.
But they do a good job. But this has got
some great content well.
Speaker 4 (49:28):
I think, I think one of the one of the
interesting content global One of the interesting things that you
cover is the finance aspect of wine too, the business
side of which is a really important thing to tackle,
especially for those people that are trying to get into
the business or starting their business.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Or trying to get out of the business. To get
out of the business. And it's a business. You know,
a lot of people get into it not realizing that
it's a business, and they get into for the romance
or it's a giant tax eduction.
Speaker 4 (49:52):
So many people think that, you know, it's a romantic,
fabulous way of living, but it's farming. It's a hard
life and there's a lot of decisions that have to
be made on a financial level to run that business
as you go along.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
David Selling in New York for a long time, so
he knows for sand because the whole family was involved
with it and then you guys got out of it. Anyway,
we have enjoyed talking with you. Thank you for taking
the time. We have to wrap this up. We've been
talking with full City Corner and you can learn more
about her at drinks insider dot com. There's a lot there.
(50:25):
It's actually good content and we look forward to hopefully
seeing you in person somewhere in the world. Thank you
and our listeners. We hope you find this engaging. We did,
and we always like to end our show with this
very important message. Explore your palette, be adventurous and always
stay and say she'll be curious.
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(00:21):
W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to the Connected Table Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
Young and David Ransom. You're insatiably curious culinary couple. We
love to share the stories of the people who shape
the world of wine, food spirits, hospitality, and publishing, and
we enjoy hearing their stories with you. We are really
(01:04):
excited to have a guest today who is really one
of the pre eminent journalists in the wine industry. The follows.
You know, we created a special series in this show
called Behind the Byline to spotlight journalists who are really
reporting on this industry as it is constantly changing and
constantly challenged, particularly well the entire industry is whether you're
(01:26):
selling and serving wine, food spirits. There are challenges and
great opportunities as well. And I would think that our
guest Felicity Carter has her finger on the pulse of
a lot of these stories. And we have been to
events where she has been an engaging speaker. We have
followed her writing regularly. She has an incredible background. She's
(01:48):
based in Europe where she's joining us. She's founder of
the Drinks Insider podcast and within that she has actually
started a special focus on wine and health, which is
a topic she's been taxed as the wine industry is
facing a lot of challenges with labeling and issues and
consumption is down, and we'll discuss it. She is also
(02:09):
the editorial directory of I hope this from pronouncing this right,
a Reny Global, a fine wine think tank headquartered in London.
Felicities have a long career in journalism and kind of
a really interesting one. Many in the industry know where
because she really shaped and served as editor in chief
of Mindnager's Wine Business International, which is really one of
(02:30):
the preeminent platforms and I must read if you want
to follow the global wine industry and still contributes there.
She also created She was the executive editor of The
Drop at Picks and has worked as a consultant in
a number of publications and before that. What's interesting if
you go to her site, you'll see that she's also
covered pets and funerals and of course food and a
(02:51):
lot of topics because as a journalist you need to
flex your muscle and be well versed in a lot
of topics. But she's best known in our industry for
her incredible and sayful reporting on wine. So Felicity Carter,
Welcome to the Connected Table.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh, it's great to be here and finally meet you
over the podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, yes, I think we were all together at Wine
to Wine last year, which is a terrific conference, and
we didn't go this year, but it's a terrific conference.
People are probably wondering, who don't know you? Where the
accent's from? So talk to us about your background.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
I am Australian, but I have lived in Europe for
sixteen years now, and when I first came, nobody could
understand a single word I had to say because of
my very thick Australian accent, and also because I talked
quite fast. So I've had to slow it down and
be a bit less Australian about the way I speak.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That's funny, that's kind of like how we are in
the Deep South. We had to slow down our pace
quite a lot. It's an adaptation. So you are what
brought you to Europe.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I got a job. So about eighteen twenty years ago,
there was a big interest in European pushing into the
English speaking world, you know, with globalization, and so the
result was hilariously bad films with European actors who didn't
understand the scripts they were speaking. There were terrible magazines
that would have half French and half bad and translated English.
(04:21):
But a German publishing house here mining has decided that
if they were going to do that, they wanted a
native speaker, and they thought maybe somebody from Australia or
New Zealand would be interested in working in Europe. And
actually I was I don't have visas for the rest
of the world, and I was like, yeah, I'd love
a one year contract working in Europe. So that's how
I ended up here. And one year turned into another year,
(04:41):
and there you go.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
That sounds kind of dreamy, I think, given the way
things are going here in the Nase States, that would
be like a dream situation for us too, right now.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Maybe a four year contract.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, maybe a four year at least maybe five. You know,
you've been a journalist for a very long time. Did
you always want to be a journalist? Just something?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I did not really, No, No.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
As a child, I had lots and lots of different ambitions.
I was going to be a doctor at one stage,
and I was going to be famous actorate as another.
But when I was a teenager, I think my mother
could see how things were going, and so she brought
me a subscription to Writer's Digest and I used to
read that assidiously. So by the time I was sixteen,
I think I was pitching stories, not very successfully, so
(05:23):
I guess I guess my mother worked it out.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
So interesting Felicity and I little bit you, David, But
I always wanted to be My parents were both writers,
particularly mother, and I was running around with a little
notebook as a child and using my pencil as an inner,
you know, as a microphone, and I still have all
those diaries. There was always a dream. I got my
first job at sixteen at the local paper, but then
(05:46):
you know, the career went this way and that because
you had earn a living, which is not always easy
to do as a journalist. But you've done very well
for yourself.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
The congratulatings, we all know it's a tip with that mind,
you're always for higher like all of us, and.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So well, we'll just note drinks insider dot com.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
You know, it was really funny. I was in Sicily
a few years ago and there were hot at the
Anti Prima and there was a whole bunch of influences there.
I was a guy who had taken up wine writing
in his retirement and he just sold his company for
sixty million dollars and he said to me, it must
be nice being a member of the elite. And I
went what And he said, yeah, you journalist, you're members
(06:38):
of the elite. And okay, that's a flipped definition from
somebody who rides at the point end of the plane,
but yeah, I'll go with it.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
You know, we're finding that quite a bit felicity. We
were in New York for a dinner. It was an
Allegerini dinner and the man next to me was clearly
he was older the meat, which means old, and he
was wine writing. He just picked up wine writing and
he had, you know, the corporate experience. I think a
lot of I hate to say this, I think a
lot of people are doing that there. They have other
(07:07):
jobs and careers. Maybe they sold out and they're retiring
into wine rating, which really kind of balls everybody else down.
And it's a challenge. Do you as a writer? How
do you go about pursuing stories? What is your do
you have? Do you focus?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
And we know we just at least amount of energy
as possible. I do a lot of people up on
zoo and go can I have a chat?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Please?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
No? So I I if I'm interested in a topic,
I tend to get obsessed by it and read everything
I possibly can about it. I don't often have a
lot of choice about what I'm going to do because
I've got you know, like for mining, as I have
to produce a certain amount off and they suggest things
that they want, so you know, I'm like a ropot.
I just go, yeah, sure, okay, I'll go and find
out about that thing. And I do. And then I've
(07:54):
got things that obsessed me at various times that I
start learning everything about I.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Think that's interesting. I find David's an editor for two magazines,
tasting panel on the sum Journal, and he has a
regular beat and carl On and gets aside I as
a freelancer of constantly having to pitch, which is exhausting.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I understand.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, Yeah, I actually kind of I kind of like
the fact that I get assigned stories because it takes
it takes a lot of the guesswork out of what
I need to do. Yeah, send me a story.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah. Things have changed.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
When I was, when I was a general feature writer,
it was a perfect job for someone who's complete diltonue,
which is what I am. You know, I'd see something
catch my attention, I'd say to an editor, can.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
I go on?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Can I go on the story about this? And I
go yes. But even as opportunities have dwindled, one of
the other things is that now people expect a lot
more expertise in an area. You can't just go off
and pitch the story about something that is interesting, no
matter how good a reporter you are. And I really miss.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
That, particularly a wine. Everybody wants sort ofations. Now they
want you to certified at some level, which can get
expensive when you go pursue certifications.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about the certifications. I think
for wine writers, I maintain and I always maintained as
an editor, it's not your job to be the expert.
It's your job to know enough that you can ask
the right questions of the experts. The more expert people get,
the more they typically want to show that expertise in
their stories, and the story becomes about them rather than
(09:29):
about whatever it is they're writing about.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
That's interesting because when I had a my former careers
in public relations because it paid more than writing and
I could write, and I was told by my boss
the same thing. You don't need to be an expert
in your client's industry. You need to be the expert
on why they've hired you.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah. Yeah, good point, Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, it was all humbling because I want to become
an expert everything, because when you're covering something, you get
so excited about it that you want to tackle it
and do the deep if you're really passionate, that's right. Yeah,
let's talk about what you're passionate about reading about right
now in the business, because you clearly you're following some
(10:11):
important threads, right now.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
So when I say I become obsessed, what I mean
is I become truly obsessed. And the thing that I've
started doing at the moment is every time I have
spent time, or if I'm in an airport, I watch
public health videos. I watch webinars from you know, because
everybody these days, you know, when they give talks to
each other, they put the webinar on YouTube, and so
I'm always I'm always going on YouTube going what is
(10:37):
eurocaut to today? What are these people talking about? And
so I spend a lot of time, and I think
I've I think I've read every public health document that's
come out of the UK or Europe in the last
ten years. I've actually run out of videos. So I
will at some point have to change my focus. But
that's what I've been focusing on.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I think it's an important topic. I became interested. I
was always interested in food. Food was my was food
before wine, wine and food. But I was representing restaurants
in pr and then I'm morphed into wine and it's
all integrated. But health became something I became passionate about
when I was diagnosed with breast cancer and I had
to do a hard reset and go did my career
make me sick? And so I became very passionate about
(11:24):
the food connection between food and not just what we
call primary food, but also secondary food, because the primary
food is how you take care of yourself in the
wheel and nurturing yourself through exercise and mental health support,
et cetera. And then there's what you put in your
body and the connection. And it's been in the news
a lot. There's a lot of debate the alcohol industries,
(11:47):
particularly wine issues, getting battered right now about it, and
you have really been proactive and taking a stand reporting
on it, particularly with your focus within your podcast.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, I mean, the cancer is the cancer is shoe
is something I'm looking at right now. I've I've spent
the last few months speaking to oncologists both on and
off the record. It's not something I really want to
get into because it's a complicated topic and the evidence
is not always clear. So I you know, I should
(12:25):
have written this story about wine didn't cancer months and
months ago. The deadline has wushed past, but I'm still
sort of I'm reluctant to write more about it until
I'm much more across the topic than.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I am, so I've tackled it. And you know, at
the end of the day, you know, if we paid
as much attention to French fries and bacon and older
processed food as we are to wine, I think it's important.
I mean, we live in Louisiana. Publicity. The obesity rate
down here is unbelievable. And today the New York Times
(12:58):
reported that obesity because it was like a startling increase
in the United States. Yeah, but younger, younger people and
women and yeah, and it's it's that is the bigger
health challenge for us in the United States. And you
go to Europe, you don't see as many fat people
and everybody drinks white. It's it's a bigger issue and
(13:21):
it's not worth tackling here. But we watch it with
interest as well. But we feel, you know, we talked
about it last night. We feel the wine industry is
getting a little bit of a fair poke when there's
so many factors in this situation about well, you'll.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Be pleased, you'll be pleased to know that the public
Health Lobby has the ultra processed industry and their sites.
So there was a report that was done in under
twenty ten or twenty eleven called the Commercial Determinants of Health,
and that has turned into a whole public health focus
on how commercial actors can influence health for good and
(13:58):
for ill. And there's four there's four areas which are
being targeted, alcohol, tobacco, process foods, and fossil fuels. So
don't worry, ultra process foods are in everybody's sites as well.
But the problem, the problem with all of these things
is that the evidence is extremely complicated and these are
very multi factorial. So it is a belief among everybody
(14:20):
that if people could just stop eating junk food that
the obesity epidemic would vanish, and that's actually not quite
what the evidence says. It's a lot more complicated than that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, it is a lot more complicated than that. And
because it's there's so many factors to what makes someone overweight,
and that was actually addressed in the article today in
the New York Times. Because there's the genetics, there's sedentary
and personally, I think one of the reasons that we
have had what I consider skyrack any obesity is not
(14:53):
just diet related, is that we have beencome attached to
our digital devices and we're not moving dren are not
moving like they used to. Everybody is more sedentary, and
that is a problem that needs to be addressed. In
the larger scope, people just start moving around and the
more a beeese you get, the less you move.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah, I think there's I think you know, there's a
lot of there's a lot of issues in life.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah. So you've done a great job covering it. And
it is a complicated topic, and you know it's really hard,
and I'm sure you find this. There's a lot of
these studies and research reports you have to really dig
deep to who see who's sponsoring them?
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Look, that's an interesting question. I think you know that
that question of conflict of interest is flung around a
lot at different people. The reality is is that if
the study is properly designed, and if it's properly published,
then in one sense, whoever sponsors it should not be
the issue. You should always deal with what does what
(15:55):
does the paper actually say? And was the paper well
done in some ways before you look at I mean,
of course you look at conflicts. Events of course are
really important. But I think I think sometimes that can
be a a derailing tactic.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Coming from wearing my former public relations into jiet So
research studies were a big tool to get press, and
that was usually in the pitch deck. We'll do a
study and a lot. Obviously, the study always had a
skew to it was always a legitimate study, but it
always was a way that would not disfavor of the client.
(16:32):
Which is why I'm always a little I always dig
deep and when I see reports, I read lots of
reports and lots of reports and lots of reports to
see what else is being said, because you can go
down a rabbit hole of all this.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Yeah, the scientific process should actually take care of some
of this. So when you look at you know, the
first thing you look at is where is it published.
So all journals have a sort of a status of
how much they're weighted, and so you know there's some
there's some publications which are just paper mills, which is
complete garbage, right, and anything that was published there you
would complete ignore. But so you know, you also look
(17:03):
at where it's published, who published it, who peer reviewed it,
and so on. I mean, you know, you can you
can pride it. I saw an absolutely garbage study that
was done a couple of months ago that was jaw
droppingly bad. But you know you should. If you're a writer,
you should be able to spot those things.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, David, I'll let you like I'm dominating, So it's usual.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Well you well, that's anyway needless to say. So, Felicity,
why don't you tell us when you started out writing?
Did you eventually come to wine or was wine one
of your focuses early on?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
No, I saw of fell into it. So so I
had worked as a copywriter at a direct mail company
that sold wine, and I didn't know anything about wine
at the time. I didn't drink, but they did something
in house wine training, and so like everybody with a
little bit of knowledge, I suddenly thought that I was
completely expert. So after September eleven, I got really interested
(18:02):
in foreign affairs, and that's when I went and retrained
as a journalist, thinking that I would graduate and I
would be a foreign correspondent. Maybe you get dropped into
a war zone. And I discovered, much to my horror,
that if you couldn't speak Arabic, Chinese or Russian, and
if you had zero experience, your chances of being a
foreign correspondent were about nil. But I was busy pitching
(18:26):
stories and I thought, well, I'll picture wine story because
you know, I know huge amounts about wine, and it
just I wish I didn't, But it just so happened
that I landed it inside a major metropolitan newspaper, and
so it was a really big break and the editor
really liked what I did, so I had to come
up with other things to pitch. So I used to
sit at my desk late at night reading what was
(18:47):
being published around the world, sort of thinking can I
find something that I could apply to Australia, And of
course the other wine writers worked out very fast that
I had no idea what I was talking about. So
that was that was a painful experience. Australians are like gladiators.
It's like entering the coliseum, so you know that, you
(19:08):
know that was that was just an appalling experience, and
so in order to fend them off, I had to
learn quite a lot about wine very quickly. So that's
how I that's how I ended up writing about wine.
But it wasn't it wasn't my focus. I was also
writing about other things as well.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
You know that you're you're lucky so many people dream
People always ask me, how are you going to how
do I get into wine. How do I break into wine?
And we fell into it separately and differently from different paths,
and that's actually how we end up meeting each other.
And I know from my end I cover other things
as well, where I think you need to be well rounded.
You know, you have to make a choice you want
to only specialize or be well rounded in other areas.
(19:47):
And I always like to have other fingers and other
things so that if something goes flat, I have other
options aside from wine. What other topics do you enjoy
covering at this point, Well.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
I used to do a lot of I used to
do a lot of science and medical writing at one stage,
which I really enjoyed. In fact, I had a job.
I had a freelance job a couple of years ago
working for a Sydney science communication agency, and I was
doing a series on a subject called translational genomics, which
is and looking at how people are trying to solve
(20:21):
very very rare diseases. And I found things like that
very interesting. Unfortunately, I should I should confess I lost
the contract because I put all the wrong doctors in
the home stories that they got from the store.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
The article that made me quit.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
The I got the bone people in the article about
you know, so, so it was it was like, you know,
they're all quite incorrectly. I got their research right, but
they were in the wrong order. So that was the
end of that.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
So it was a learning experience.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
It was a little a lot of work to be
had in medical writing, as the ads for that all
the time. But you really have to have a lot
of cred you know. Yeah, everybody wants more. Everybody wants
more credibility and credentials. It's it's harder now to break
in as a writer. As a journalist, I think.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Well, the other problem is that, as I'm finding, is
that more and more scientists are not allowed to speak
to the media. I thought this was just me because
I was, you know, trying to do a podcast called
Wine in Health, but actually I've been following some other
science rights and they're all complaining about it that medical
researchers and scientists now increasingly just won't speak to the media.
(21:24):
Their their universities and you know that their employees won't
allow them, which I think at a time when confidence
in science and medicine is dropping, is terrible. But it's
a problem, that's.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
That's a shame because I think it's so valuable. And
you know, what you know gives you strength, and your
knowledge is strength. And you know, when you're talking to
people who are scientists and medical specialists, if they can
help enlighten that those few people to change, make a change,
take better care of themselves and be aware. It's great
because there's so many factors right now out there in
(21:59):
the world, the disease and medicine and health that need
to be addressed. It's such a big area. Yeah, and
you know, and then we wake up every day here
in the United States. I don't know what it's like
in Europe, but you know, the drug commercials are all
over the place. There's like ten every morning.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah, I know. I mean that's a peculiarity of that market.
They do that in New Zealand as well, but everyone
else I think about it.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
I think about ninety percent of the commercials on television
or drug commercials.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
But yeah, because they're they're targeting.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Here in the United States, lawyers of course.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, they're targeting people who are you know, and there's
a lot of misinformation floating around there. So it's it's
I think it's important for anyone to follow find and follow.
Whether you're in a journalist or someone who wants to learn,
you've gone to really cherry pick and find media outlets
(22:55):
who have respect and that have evidence space reporting versus
all the garbage that comes in through the digital devices
these days, and it's hard.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I was in the United States a couple of weeks
ago and I was in my hotel room when I
was watching television, and those pharmaceutical kids as came on
and I was thinking to myself, huh, I thought that
sounds really cool, and then they got to the then
they got a bit about and this will Kill You and.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Yeah, claims were always fun to listen to. Well, we laughed,
that's when I meet the TV.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
You know, between that and the dog food commercials. I mean,
you know, have you seen all the dog you commercials?
Oh my gosh. We obviously watched the Morning News. There's
like Farmer's Dog They are gourmet dog foods and they're
spending a lot of money to the point where the
food actually looks delicious. And a friend of ours who
actually worked at the white Business's wife posted that she
(23:51):
caught him actually reaching for a container of the dog
food and she had to label it no it's for
the dog.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Well, do you know you asked me what stories I
like to do. Actually, I'd love to do one on
pet food because for a while I used to follow
all the Mars Pet Laboratory scientists on social media and
eaves dropping on their conversations, and there's something like ninety
scientists working on cat food. And I was like, what's
the big problem in cat food that you're trying to solve.
And one of the big problems fetrying to solve is
(24:20):
why do cats like tuna choose their favorite food? And
I was like, because it's delicious, I guess, And no,
because tuna's are deep water fish, so no cat would
ever have been able to eat it. So why did
they develop a taste for I'm like, I'd like to
go into view them about that. But of course that's.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Interesting ant poison. Remember we ate up by the ant
poison we had taken the doctor because it was like sugar.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
So cats would like cats would like Chilean sea bass
as well.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Well, you know it's these commercials. There's definitely a story
in it because I wanted I mean, first of all,
how did these pet food companies get all this money
to advertise on prime time because it's on.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
People put it a lot of money into their pets.
That's what you're unsavable. But the thing I've just goover
is pet food has to be human grade food, so
you know, you can actually you can actually eat it.
It probably looks delicious and it probably is delicious.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
So I tried. I'd like to get a panel of
pets to see what they have to say about this topic,
because the food does look good, and when they would
describe it, I'm like, God, you know, if I really
did have a lot of money, maybe I'd go try
the pet food because it's probably very nutritia.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
You know, I've heard people eating baby food for the
same reason, but it's a whole other topic. But the
pet food thing just stands out because it rivals pharmaceuticals
in terms of what is in our TV every morning.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
So you both, obviously you both actually have written for
pet magazine. Melanie you wrote for a magazine called Animal
Fair here in the United States, which was a fun one.
And Felicity you wrote for a magazine called Bark.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Yes Bark with an exclamation mark at the end.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yes I did, and it was one of.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
My absolute most favorite jobs. I really I really loved
reporting on it. I would happily become an animal reporter,
you know, because you get into such interesting situations. I
remember going to a nursing home to watch therapy dogs.
I spoke to a I spoke to a US marine
who smuggled a dog out of a roart because if
(26:13):
you're in the army and not allowed to know frightnize
with street animals, and he'd done it, and things like
that that were very interesting. I spoke to her. I
remember speaking to a veterinary assistant who told me that
the biggest problem we had with dogs was honey socks
they swallowed, and how Hanning told me all about how
you extract socks from their cuts. I love those conversations.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I had a friend whose dog swallowed a frisbee and survived.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I thought they were a big dog or a small frisbee.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
There was a very big dog and probably a small frisbee,
but I know my pet. Reporting with celebrities and their
pets it was a little more liberty. But then I
did something. I literally did a promotion around the Year
of the Dog for Chinese New Year with a Chinese
restaurant that really became awful from me and it should
be in the book. One day because they didn't throw
out the fortune cookies. We did, and I was having
(27:05):
dinner with some friends afterward and we got our fortune
cookies and they tasted funny. They tasted really funny, and
they were the dog fortune cookies. They were the pet
fortune cookies. And I knew it because the fortunes inside
were pet related, like you know, wait for the.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Mailman, and ants were eating.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Them, and I'm and my dinner guests were eating him.
I'm like, waite, you're buried delayed.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
What are the fortunes?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Then? Yeah, well it was like you know, get ready
for the mailman. It was it was like stuff like that,
or you know, go grab a bone. And I was like,
this is very different from me. You will have a happy,
long life. And they were very pet focused and I
was like, they tasted okay, they just didn't they lacked
the sweetness. But I was like, wait, I don't think
we should be eating these, and then everybody started laughing
(27:55):
and barking at me.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
But anyway, well, the big question is did the moment
bring you any No?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I wish well, it actually the client yelled at me
because I said, I said to him, I think you're
serving the dog fortune cookies to your guests. He's like,
we would never do that. It's a call anymore. They
never listened, but it was pretty funny. But I think
it's a great area to go into. And you write,
people spend a lot of many other pets and they
take them traveling and they feed them the square mat
(28:22):
food and it's a big industry and probably lucras of Yeah, yeah,
it's a very.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Big industry, and it's just it's kind of hilarious industry too.
So I'd be very happy to go back to reporting
on that.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Well, you always can, you know, you can always wear
many many hats. Many many people do.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Oh Sadly, there's not that many outlets anymore for the
dog relations or cat related you know, I'm Catholic hat world,
he peaks, I'm happy.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Well, you know what, if it doesn't exist, plant the
seeds and grow it. That's what I always say, you know,
and you know what, there is too many outlets about wine. Yeah,
that's right, So let's just talk about where where the
where the fields need to be gleaned. Uh, it's hard
everybody's you know, and then you add on their influencers.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Have you been on traish that I wish? So I
cut down the one made you please?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah? Well you know so Kara and McNeil did the
huge lament over the demise of wine writing back in
before she did come over October. But she was very
you know, she was sad about And what was really
shocking is she was asked to do a huge rose
detail for news was it Newsweek or US News at
one of those and they said, and she said, you know,
(29:34):
here's my fee. And they she said, what is the fee?
And they said, no, we want you to do it
for free. So one of the challenges I have observed
is there are too many people willing to work for
no money to get their foot in the door in
a byline or for sub pay, which brings down the level.
It's not just one, it's all journalism, and it seems
(29:56):
like everybody needs to buy in together and say this
is not acceptable, we won't accept that. What are your
thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Look, I obviously I want to be paid far more
than I am, and I've seen you know, I'm a
member of various journalism organizations and many people try and
do this. Many people try and be transparent about pay
and so on. Having been an editor and knowing what
it's like working for publishers and with budgets you actually have,
(30:27):
you sometimes have very little control over it. And the
reality is is the media industry is in a terrible state.
It's really in a terrible state. So in principle, I
think is the way to stay afloat is to be
able to do something that other people can't do. You know,
(30:49):
if what you want is you want to write about
a nice lifestyle things, well there's lots of people that
will do that for free.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, tackle the more difficult topics. Nobody wants to tackle
technology or wine and technology, or you did an article
it's a managers I think now, which is a personal
interest of mine, on all the wine companies, particularly the
United States, they are selling to venture capital. Venture capital
(31:17):
is taking over the industry and it's fascinating. And I
was talking at that same Allegrini dinner. I was telling
because they had a big, you know change there. I
was talking about it to them and they were listening
with fascination when I told them about the duck Corn
deal and it seems like everybody wants to jump on
the bandwagon, but it's not that easy to do, as
the article explains. But I mean that seems to be
(31:42):
a big topic that's going to be moving forward because
as you know, all these people are aging. You know,
they all started their wineries in the seventies, and they
have to have an exit plan unless the next generation
or the next generation want to continue. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
I mean, you know, the quase is always at the
moment is what's happening. Is the downturn structural or is
it cyclical? And I don't think the answer is very
clear that it's structural. But you know, the you know,
I've been reporting about the wine business for a long
time now, and you could see that the expansion had
gone too far. You know, there were too many vineyards
(32:19):
in marginal areas, too many lifestyle people who'd go into
it with no business plans, too many you know, the
Rabobank wrote it, which is the agricultural bank here in Europe,
wrote a report about ten years ago, I think, and
they said there were lots and lots of wine businesses
in Europe that had gone broke, and they didn't realize
it because they were still making enough money to eat.
(32:39):
They weren't necessarily paying the salary. You know, one member
of the family was bringing in money somewhere else and
they hadn't actually realized that the company no longer functioned
as a company. So I think you can only you know,
it's that famous economic things. You know, things will go
on until they can't, and I think we've hit the
point where they can't go on. Why.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
I think there was definitely a huge burst in wine
production over the last twenty years or so, everybody trying
to get into the game, and we saw that all
over Europe as we were doing and it's obviously happened
a lot here in America. Fifty states make wine now
here in America, and there were four when my family
got into the wine business, four states really that did
it on it on a professional scale. So I think
(33:23):
there has to be some type of drop and return
to where it was at some point for it to
really make a success of itself. At this point, it's.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Typical with a lot of industries. Everybody jumps I call
it the bandwagon theory. Everybody jumps on the bandwagon because
they see success and they want to follow that path.
But then suddenly it's everywhere. It's like in food. I'll
never forget when many years of kish was like the thing,
and suddenly the keish effect hit, you know McDonald's or
(33:52):
you know fast food, and it's like suddenly it wasn't
special anymore. It was everywhere and or the corosts on.
It was the same thing. But you suddenly see it everywhere,
and then there's too much of it and then people
and your people get fickle and disinterested and move on
to the next thing.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yeah. In in Sydney in the late nineties, that equivalent
was the sticky date pudding, which is an Australian dessert,
and I remember, I remember there was a Sydney wanting
Harald food critic who started unparaphrasing, but he started the
review was and when something like the first fifty sticky
date puddings were great, you know, then everybody had it.
(34:28):
Now now you can't sit anyway. Yeah, But I mean
the other thing that's changed is, you know, the wine
industry told people for years to drink less but better,
and people are actually doing that. So a lot of
a lot of the pain in the industry is being
at the you know, the high volume lower quality end.
It's very awful for the people involved. But some of
(34:52):
that I think he's probably necessary, you know, like I've
never liked the fact that, you know, Australia exports some
of its most precious commodity, which is water, in cheap
bottles of wine, you know, those highly irrigated, very commercial,
bottom end wines. I'm sorry for. I think there's a
lot of pain around that, but I'm not sorry to
see the end of that.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Well, first of all, in the first cup, be careful
what you wish for. Drink more, but less. But we
are all for that. You know my attitude about consuming wine,
Consume it in moderation with great pleasure, and up your
game and drink better wine and don't settle for the
you know, I'm going to say, a lot of the
crap that we see in supermarkets and it's the only
(35:35):
thing that's available, and many there's food deserts. This is
like a wine desert because it's the same brands over
and over again, and people don't know any better, and
they're manufactured, and they're manufactured, and the people don't like
them and say I don't want to drink anymore.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Well, not only that, but those wines are very homogeneous
because all of the big companies benchmark against each other.
So something successful, they go and they kind.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Of copy it.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
So even if they all look like different brands, they're
increasing similar as well.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, like the cheap rose effect. It's crazy, that's kind
of way we're talking about. Everybody sees a success and
they jump on the bandwagon and suddenly there's just too
much of it and none of it's any good and
people who are then they can't sell it. Yeah, the
the and I believe that in the venture capital world,
which I'm watching with interest, because the numbers are good,
(36:23):
they're going to move on to something else. The venture
capitals will find the next big thing, and that's that.
You know. It's it's like it's been like that with
a lot of industries, and we'll see what happened. I mean,
I think twenty twenty five this is a twenty twenty
fourth shure. I think twenty twenty five is going to
be a pivotal year in the wine industry for so
(36:45):
many reasons. You know, we're still dealing with the consumption
factor and it's you know, consumption is down a lot
of places, including Europe. Uh, people you know, young people
are drinking other things. I asked you before the show
about the cannabis and THHC here like, and we're in
New Orleans. You can go to the supermarket and get
(37:06):
THHC infused hand drinks and people buy them and they're
cheaper and you get your buzz faster. If that's how
you if you're drinking for that reason. Uh, and you'll
we have friends with me. I don't drink wine or alcohol,
but they'll drink THHC and to use beverages.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, you know, it was really striking the last couple
of times I've been to New York. Can walk around
the street and you can get high just from all
of these.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
It's everywhere. It's a shock to our system too. That
was like one of the things when we came back
to New York after the This is so funny. We
came back to New York when the city opened up.
I said, what do you notice different besides all the
boarded up buildings? I said, we both agree we smelled
a lot of cannabis and we smell the marijuana. And
David say, and none of the women wear bras.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Those are the two things I took away from the
pandemic walking around New York City when everybody was smoking
pot and none of the women were wearing bras.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
And and and all my friends had gray hair, like
nobody colored their hair anymore, and I recognized my friends.
The pandemic changed a lot of things, and I think
I personally thankful to see that a lot of the
issues about consumption. And it was in the New York
Times article again today, people just drank more during the pandemic.
They didn't have any to do. They drank more. Our
little buddy Kenny at our little local shop, and where
(38:31):
we were living in the huts of allies, it was
like Christmas every day, et cetera. And I think, just
you know, like when we moved to New Orleans, we
ate a lot of poe boys and then one day
we gained ten pounds.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
You a.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Pop boys, you got to come visit the sandwich of
New Orleans. Sandwich.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Tell me, I know, I went to sleep.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
So there was a strike. There was a rail workers
strike back in the day, a dock workers strike. It
was actually a rail workers strike, and the guys were
not working. And there was a local sandwich shop who
supported the strike and said let's feed these pole boys
a sandwich. And they made a sandwich. At the time,
it was a bread with potatoes in it, and they
(39:13):
gave them away for free to the people who were,
you know, starving down on the docks, and the name
took and now a poor boy. It's a poor boy
sandwich or po boy is an iconic sandwich.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
And it can have many different ingredients from frim to
roast beef to whatever you want it to be. But
all the sandwiches in New Orleans are called.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I mean, they even had We went to the Poor
Boy Festival and Ian McNulty, the local food, food writer
and restaurant critic, does a Poe Boy bracket like they
have like basketball brackets. They have po Boy bracket to
see who has the best poor boy. I mean, people
in New Worlds are obsessed with poor boys. I'll send
you a link. But they're very special. There's a there's
a term, you know, there's muffalattas. There's stories behind a
(39:55):
lot of the food here. It's it's very interesting, just
like in just like in Australia. I've been to Australia.
David has it, but it's in London with what are
those called the ha what are those sandwiches called in England?
The not the Cornish pies but the Tasty's, Hasty's Hasties, Hasty's, Hasty's, yeah, Hasty's.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I always liked bubble and squeaked. That was my favorite
one to talk about and spotted Dick for a while.
For a brief time, I represented the London Tourist Board
and my job was to help promote dining and help
elevate the image of dining in London. It was one
of the greatest gigs. My job was just invite writers
over to go eat. Oh wow, when was that in
(40:40):
the nineties and then it being a cover story on
in Bonepetit magazine. It was just this crazy in the
in the nineties when I was really driving really well
with all sorts of crazy things, and I was like
literally hosting and bringing journalists over, you know, let's go
dine around London. It was dreamy, yeah, imagine, yeah, yeah,
(41:01):
it was.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
It was.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
I kind of missed those days, but you know, life
goes on, right. Is there a uh is there someone
that you've loved to enter reader you haven't yet? And
why she Grant?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
I've been watching him on Instagram and that guy is
so funny and he and he's so rude. I would
like to talk to him. That's who I want to
talk to you. I want to ask him. I want
to ask him to give me a list of all
the things that annoy him, because apparently loads of things
annoy him and they're all very funny.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
What's your favorite Hugh Grant movie?
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Now? Now, I can only tell you the ones that
I can remember. The name that pops into my head obviously,
see for when he's the funeral after we get off
this call, I go, oh, no, I didn't mean that
when I meant that one. But it's my favorite interviews
with him are the Instagram interviews. He's he's on couch
and people just ask him questions and he just explains
how annoyed he is at that particular thing. It's great.
I have.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
I have a thing for Hugh gret I've always had
a thing for British men, as David knows, dated one
for a while and I think they're really handsome. But
they do have this one fun wonky humor. And so
four Weddings at the Funeral notting Hill actually and Love Actually,
which was our Christmas movie weligiously.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
I wouldn't ask him anything about Hollywood, anything about his
acting career. I just sit down and go, I want
to talk about all the things that really annoy you, Hugh,
and off we would go and.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
That and there's you're in right there.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
I think that'd be great.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
You should just you know, it was just in New
York this week on the Stephen Colbert Show.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
It was I missed it. I must have fell asleep.
You know my attitude about writings if I want to,
and my mom taught me this as a writer. My
mom always said, if you want to learn about something,
you want to get in. She was she's always trying
to get money out of people for her charity. So
she'd go interview CEOs to learn more about their job,
and that was her tactic, is to get in the
other way versus ask them for something, but develop a relationship.
(42:56):
But I just I am fairly fearless. I'd like to
just reach out to whoever and say I just really
want to interview you, and hopefully they won't do something
like what are your numbers? Ahead When people say that,
like what are your numbers? Can you hard?
Speaker 3 (43:10):
It is getting harder and harder and harder to interview people.
And the other thing is people want all the questions
in advance, and so I frequently make up some questions
and send it, and then I don't necessarily ask those
same questions when I'm finally talking to people. But everything's
very managed and very controlled, of course, which to be
a very good interview.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Well, and that's a lot of that's because you're working
through the PR company and they want to have control.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
How do you handle one of the publicist wants to
be on the interview.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Look, it depends what it is. If it's something that's
mostly I don't care. If it's actually if I'm recording
a podcast, I say to them, no, you know, I
can't have somebody because I don't want to pay money
to edit you out, you know. I tell you what
I don't mind is sometimes I've interviewed people as a
PR person on the call and I and I stopped
(44:00):
asking the questions I want to ask, and I can
see the opposit and get ready twitching.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I don't mind that that happened with me. With the Doctor.
We were interviewing her and she was a well known,
she was on the show The Doctor, so she was
like really famous, and I was honored she was on
it was my other show for your established too, and
she would We were having a great rapport and then
suddenly I could hear the publicist whispering in her ear
(44:26):
and just about I have a no, we have a
no publicist. No one sits in, No thirty parties sit
in because I don't want we want the conversation just
to be free and easy on a podcast and not
have anyone like queuing people in print or in person.
It was a different ballgame. It wouldn't bother And sometimes,
I mean I had a lot of clients in the
time when I was doing Pure where they had terrible English,
(44:48):
so I was there to help them with, you know,
explaining this self sometimes because they would say something that
was totally not what they met. But I think it's
important to for particularly television podcast to just be one
on one with your guests. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
I think what really strikes me in the age of
the influencer is not not in wine because people typically
many people know who I am when I interview Pivlet
and Wine. But if I'm if I'm in another area
where people don't know me, and this doesn't happen in
science and medicine, but it happens in other things. I've
noticed more and more younger PR people imagine that I'm
an influencer who can be told what to do. I
(45:26):
actually get instructions on what I should ask them and
how it should be done. And people then sometimes look
at the article and they send in corrections. So can
you change the headline we would prefer this, or you know,
can you run it on this date to coincide with
the lawnch like I don't quite understood what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
We call that paid content. We have a separate platform
for that.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
Exactly when you're a partnership, if you'd like to preview
the article before I publish it, then you can pay
me to writer.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah, that's that is when it becomes a partnership or
contact that's created for somebody. And it's very church and state,
and we're very we're very transparent about that when we
get pitched what we will and will not accept on
a We're very clear with this show. It's leaders thought
leaders in the industry. We're not here to talk about
new hires or new vases. We're very clear about and
(46:17):
that's why it's by invitation. We think really long and
hard and like you know, we do said, yeah, well,
we create questions. It's also to prepare ourselves because we
do and you do too. You do a lot of
prep and reading up and they are nights you're listening
on headphones of podcasts to prepare for talking to your guests.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. I do a huge amount
of preparation before I do something. I try to make
sure I have listened to all their interviews, so I
ask them questions, like you know, because most people who
get interviewed a lot have a script and so whatever
you ask them, they'll give you the script and answer,
and so I try and make sure I can ask
a question. It doesn't doesn't bring out the script. It's not.
(46:56):
It doesn't always work, but sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Talk to us about the role you have with am
I p areni Global.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
Arena Global, Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
What tell us about that?
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Arena is a really interesting group. It's a it's a
fine wine research company founded or co founded by Pauline
Bickhard who's from Burgundy. She's a french woman now living
in London. We do a lot of research into you know,
what markets are emerging as places for fine wine. You know,
(47:27):
we have a lot of events where people get together
and talk about it. And actually, Pauline was really smart.
We had a we had an event about oh, I
think it was about five years ago. It was in Champagne,
and so Irenly often invites people from high level, people
from other industries to come and give their perspective. And
I remember we had this guy who worked in the
oil industry and at the very end of we had
(47:50):
a great time in Champagne, and the very end of it,
he stood up and he said, you people have finished
and we were like what. And he said, look, in
my lifetime, we used to be the good guys. We
used to be the people who kept the lights on
and kept the heaters on and kept people moving. And
now we're the villains. And he said, it's coming for
you and you people have no idea what's about to
hit you. And that's always I think it was in
(48:11):
twenty eighteen he said that that's always stayed in my mind. Yeah,
So we think a lot about think a lot about
what you call the social license to operate.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
It's interesting. I'm on the state now, a really dark
global and there's a lot of it's membership. It looks
like it's a membership group, but a lot of topics
being covered, obviously the wine in health, but also many
other topics of interest. Is it like the Wine Market
Council or is it different than the Wine Market Council
they do.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
I probably don't know enough about the Wine Market Council
to talk about it, but it's so we create a
lot of limited series This year. Our big project which
we did a limited series podcast on the Distribution System
book from what I call The Plus, which is going
into sort of the world's fine wine distribution system and
not with publications to go because what we what we
(49:03):
realized is that more and more wine students need to
know about these things and there's no resources for them.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
It's a very global approach. I mean, the Wine Market
Council is also a great group with touch is involved
with and it's very good and doing right now. They're
tackling to trying to help the US market be better
at marketing their wines and dealing with issues coming up.
I'm sure the tea word tariffs will be coming up soon.
But they do a good job. But this has got
some great content well.
Speaker 4 (49:28):
I think, I think one of the one of the
interesting content global One of the interesting things that you
cover is the finance aspect of wine too, the business
side of which is a really important thing to tackle,
especially for those people that are trying to get into
the business or starting their business.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Or trying to get out of the business. To get
out of the business. And it's a business. You know,
a lot of people get into it not realizing that
it's a business, and they get into for the romance
or it's a giant tax eduction.
Speaker 4 (49:52):
So many people think that, you know, it's a romantic,
fabulous way of living, but it's farming. It's a hard
life and there's a lot of decisions that have to
be made on a financial level to run that business
as you go along.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
David Selling in New York for a long time, so
he knows for sand because the whole family was involved
with it and then you guys got out of it. Anyway,
we have enjoyed talking with you. Thank you for taking
the time. We have to wrap this up. We've been
talking with full City Corner and you can learn more
about her at drinks insider dot com. There's a lot there.
(50:25):
It's actually good content and we look forward to hopefully
seeing you in person somewhere in the world. Thank you
and our listeners. We hope you find this engaging. We did,
and we always like to end our show with this
very important message. Explore your palette, be adventurous and always
stay and say she'll be curious.
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