February 26, 2025 • 45 mins
Dave McIntyre served as the wine critic for the Washington Post for 16 years where he covered timely industry topics including emerging regions and climate change and reviewed hundreds of wines. Now retired from both the newspaper and a separate career in public affairs, he continues his in-depth wine reporting on his Substack, Dave McIntyre’s WineLine, and as a columnist for The SOMM Journal. A DC area resident, McIntyre was an early advocate of Virginia wines and the Drink Local movement.
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The Connected Table is broadcast live Wednesdays at 2PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
The Connected Table Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome to the Connected Table Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
Young and David Ransom. You're insatiably curious culinary couple. We
enjoy traveling the world to bring you the dynamic people
who work front and center and behind the scenes in wine, food,
spirits and hospitality around the world. We love sharing their
store worries with you and bringing who they are to
(01:02):
light and really if we do it through what we
love to do best, which is a conversation. Right David
and we, as you know both write. We love sharing
stories through audio and our podcast as well as in
digital in print, and we started a series here on
the Connecting Cable called Behind the Byline to bring you
(01:25):
the people who share stories through words, renowned journalists who
are thought leaders. And today we have someone who has
a very long career as a wine journalist, Dave McIntyre,
who you know. He was an established East Coast wine
critic with his own newsletter, The Wine Line, for many years.
(01:48):
He lives in Bethesda and has been a big advocate
for Virginia wines, which we love, and then he was
tapped by Washington Post to be their official wine critic
in columnists for several years. I think it was like sixteen,
and he recently retired and now is rewired. We were
talking about that before the show. It's not retired, it's rewire,
(02:11):
and he has relaunched on substack, a platform that I
have just launched as well, his Dave McIntyre Wine Line,
which is the original name of the newsletter. He's now
on Substack, and we're really happy about it because he
has very witty, engaging, thought provoking writing. It always gets
a lot of comments and we're really very happy to
(02:32):
have Dave join us today. So Dave McIntyre, welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Thank you, Melanie and David. It's good to see you
and good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Well, it's been a while. I think you've traveled, maybe
with David Radley.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Actually remember you and I traveled in two thousand and
seven to Mantulcino in Tuscany together too.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Brunello. Yes, that was a wonderful event.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
And it's probably one of our favorite wines. Still we
have a lot of it here. So Dave, we always
start our shows with your backstory. We take it back
to your childhood, like who was little Dave and where
did he grow up and what was his interest? Because
we all know that as a child, your interest is
not wine, it's something.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Else so long ago. I'm not sure I remember, but no,
I was born in Washington, d c. And grew up
in the northern Virginia suburbs, so my interest was kind
of current events and news. I studied government in college
(03:35):
and political science and grad school and or I should
stay gradual school because I gradually decided I didn't want
to go to school anymore and sort of ended up
in journalism here in DC and fell in love with
wine along the way, and writing about it became a
(03:56):
way to learn about it.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
That's a good point. You also, like me, studied government
affairs and had a kind of a dual career like
many people do, working in public affairs for a long time.
You also have left that position. Congratulations, which is great.
So what was the wine that first captured your interests?
(04:21):
I know my dad was, and Dave and I both
have families in the wine business in different areas, and
I remember sitting down and tasting with my dad and
learning about wine and tasting the early California wines. What
were the wines that first captured you that kind of
pussy and capture that made you want to pursue writing.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Well, it was on a trip to California visiting friends
in the Bay Area, and our friends took us up
to Napa for an afternoon and visiting the wineries there.
This was in the would have been nineteen eighty eight,
and so Napa the valley wasn't as nearly as touristy
(05:02):
or crowded as it is now. But we went to
three or four wineries and it was a lot of fun,
a lot of impressive. The last one we went to
was this little place in the oak Wood area where
we actually had to pay for the tasting, which seemed scandalous.
At the time, but the glass was twice as big
(05:24):
as it was at the previous wineries. And we were there,
the four of us and one other couple for a
little private tour. The wine was twenty five dollars a bottle,
which seemed exorbitant. It was this little label named Silver Oak,
and right before they became the cult that they were,
(05:46):
and we just got hooked and decided we liked wine.
And when we came home, we hung around the wine
stores in downtown d C. On Saturday afternoons for the
free tastings. We sampled, we purchased, we met people, grew
our circle of friends that way. It was a lot
of fun. And of course, since we started at wineries
(06:08):
in California, we went to some of the local wineries
here in the very early stages of the Virginia wine renaissance,
as it were, and that got our interest in local
wines going, and that, of course has been a big
part of what I've been writing about in the decades since.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
You know, it's interesting that you kind of came to
it that way. We actually interviewed Silver Oak about a
month ago or maybe two months ago on the show,
and it's a fascinating story on that end, and it's
still family run, which isn't the norm I think in
Napa at this point because there's so much corporate ownership
in Napa now, So it's nice to see that there's
still family run as well. But it's a I love
(06:48):
how you got into East Coast wine as well, because
my family actually owned a winery in New York for
many years, and so I came to it from the
East Coast perspective of wine when I actually started writing
as well.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But Virginia wine really has had a renaissance, and we've
been blessed to have gone to at least one Governor's
Cup and crisscrossed the East Coast, stopping in Virginia to
visit with many wineries whose producers we've interviewed. You actually
was a co founder of Drink Local Wine, which is
two thousand and eight, which David's older brother Bob Ransom,
(07:22):
did that in New York with Vintage New York and
New York State Wine. It really defined locovar and people
wanting to support local producers. Do you think that's still
happening now? Are our consumers kind of particularly the younger
ones zipping here and there, trying different things based on
(07:42):
what they're reading and thinking. Is cool.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Well, I think it is happening, and I actually think
that initially the pandemic may have helped because we are
all traveling less and staycations became the thing, so it
was easier once things began to open up a little
bit for people to make a day trip to local wineries,
(08:06):
and I think that helped. I also think younger drinkers
aren't as i'd bound as people of our generation might be.
You know, I still hear people of my age say,
you know, I tasted a Virginia wine once back in
nineteen seventy eight, and I didn't think it was very good,
(08:27):
and I just, you know, slapped my forehead and try
not to slap them. But things have obviously changed and
the wines have gotten a lot better, and younger drinkers
are discovering them without that prejudice, without that supposed knowledge
(08:48):
that it's difficult to make wine on the East Coast
or you can't do it, or it has to be
from California or the West coast. And I think that's
an advantage. There's still you know, you can still playing
that there's not enough Virginia Wine on restaurant lists in Washington,
DC or whatever, or New York Wine on New York
City lists, And yeah, there's always room for improvement that way,
(09:13):
but I think it's a lot better than it was
ten or fifteen years ago when I started beating that drum.
And I've had people thank me for opening their eyes
and leading them to Virginia Wine over the years, so
that's gratifying.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Well, you know, when you launched your first launch of
Dave mcintarry's wind Line in nineteen ninety nine, you were
doing this as a newsletter. You right, that you were
doing as a newsletter because blogging sounded just too much tech,
and you developed a following. What was your initial mission
when you decided to launch it. Did you have a
(09:55):
specific focus you wanted to address or were you kind
of equal opportunity?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Well, it was very opportunistic, perhaps, is the better word.
I had been writing for two years for a website
called sub Sidewalk sidewalk dot com, which was published by Microsoft,
and they were in several cities, including Washington, DC, and
(10:22):
I was writing a wine column for the Washington Sidewalk
and this was something that Bill Gates was still head
of Microsoft at the time, and he just said he
had said, I'm going to give it two years to
see if we can make a profit, and he wasn't
making a profit, so right at two years he stole
it off and shut it down. And that was right
(10:42):
before somebody invented banner ads and websites became potentially profitable
providing content. So at this time I just wanted to
keep writing and try to get my name out there,
and I collected email addresses from friends and created Dave
(11:04):
McIntyre's Wine Line to send out once some month or
whenever I got around to writing something and send it
to these to my email lists. So it wasn't posted anywhere.
I don't think anybody had invented the word blog yet
at that point, but I kept that going for a
little bit and got some other articles published in Wine
(11:27):
Enthusiast and another website called winetoday dot com that you
may remember. It was a New York Times site done
out of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, I believe, and
it was edited by Tim Fish who's now with Wine Spectator,
and Leslie Sobroco, who has gone on to a great
(11:49):
television career In San Francisco. So and Leslie had done
San Francisco Sidewalk, so that was a connection.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, that Sidewalks was a good gig. I know a
couple of people who I think Tom Sisimo did it
in the food end of things. As I recall, he
was my.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Editor at Washington Sidewalk and he schooled me in the
fine art of stealing menus from restaurants.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Well, I hope you all got pay in stock, That's
all I have to say.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Now we didn't. Actually it was per Peace unfortunately too bad.
Like you said, writing doesn't pay.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It's very funny.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
We're all proof of that, that's for sure. So you
wrote Wineline for a number of years, and then in
two thousand and eight, the Washington Post Tappy to become
their wine columnist. Why don't you tell us about that
involvement in transition.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Well, it was the transition for me, you mean, it
was basically when I started out saying I'd like to
write about wine, I kind of had in mind that
doing the wine column for the Washington Post, my hometown paper,
would be the dream job. So I kind of bited
(13:07):
my time. They had some transition in food editors and
in the wine column itself, and when I got the chance,
it was really a dream come true. And the editor,
the Food editor at the time, Joe Yonan, who was
still the Food editor, doing a great job there and
(13:28):
having a pretty successful career as a cookbook author too
is He and I were in agreement that we would
do something try to be a little bit not the
typical wine column, though not necessarily revolutionary. But one of
the things I really wanted to focus on was the
(13:49):
local angle, and he was very supportive of that, and
that helped with the Drink Local Wine that you mentioned,
the group that Jeff Siegel, the Wine Curmudgeon, and I
co founded to encourage other writers to focus on local
wine and help get the word out that way, and
(14:11):
we were able to shine some light on Texas wine, Virginia, Maryland, Missouri,
and Colorado wine. Actually over the few years and that
kind of petered out. As I put it, we declared
victory and went home, as it were. But after five
or six years, at that point, many more mainstream food
(14:36):
and wine publications were beginning to write about the wine
revolution outside the West Coast, and that was great, and
I think we had an impact on that. Obviously, writing
the newspaper column. You're writing about the world of wine.
You're not necessarily focusing on one thing. I just wanted
(15:00):
to help readers realize that there's such a great variety
out there and get outside your comfort zone a little bit.
You don't have to spend a fortune on it to
find really good wine.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So you really had a unique position because there's very few.
I was trying to think in my head how many
actually newspaper wine columnists are left. I can only think
of like four.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, there aren't very many. I think the partly the
nature of the business. A lot of it. You know,
the newspaper business is being crunched financially. A lot of
the papers are shrunk. Local coverage is kind of gone
(15:50):
by the wayside, and the major publications are increasingly digital.
And while I wrote about wines from around the world,
it was pretty much kind of for a local audience.
The impact I would hear would be that from a
say a retailer who would say, oh, people came into
(16:10):
the store looking for that wine you recommended, and I say, well,
did they have a computer print out of the column
or did they have something torn out of the print edition.
And it was always the print edition and you know
the unfortunately the newspaper is looking at the number of
clicks online, so there's that. It's just the way the
(16:32):
business was going. I think that has really put a
squeeze on wine columns.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I also think David David, there's just a lot of
people out there who are writing about wine now, and
the bar there's a you know, you can either say
it's lowering the bar or raising the bar, depending how
you think up the quality of the writing. But everybody
is now could be a wine writer, and therefore it's cheap.
(17:00):
It's you know, knowing the dismal rates that freelancers get
and the fact that many are writing for free now,
which is depressing. That's okay. Lowering the bar is when
people agree to write for free in change for exposure.
That's eliminating the that's eliminating the bar, and too many
people are doing that. Too many people are doing that
and offering that. Raising the bar is when the remaining
(17:20):
media left pay fair rates and respect the work of
all writers and not just wine writers. But it's challenging
because we're seeing a lot of that, and we're seeing
a lot of dollars being converted to influencers, and in fact,
one of the Silicon Valley wine reports, you know, one
of the fallouts from that. I was just looking at
the San Francisco Chronicle, which has a wine section, and
(17:43):
they were saying, you know, if you're not digitally diverse
and digitally dominant in wine, you are going to be
going down the drain. And they say, put your money
in influencers.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Now, yeah, I think obviously things have evolved. I can't
complain about the Internet because my newsletter that you know, started,
as I said, as an email. I then went to
type pad and then the WordPress and now to substack,
So DM Wineline, dot substack dot com but also sidewalk, Winetoday,
(18:20):
dot Com were stepping stones for me. So without those pubblications,
I probably would have had a much harder time getting
into print publications like Washingtonian Magazine or Dcmodern Luxury and
the Washington Post. So I can't really complain about that.
(18:43):
And I think the the blogging revolution as it were,
that happened started about I guess twenty years ago. Like
you said, it's a democratization of wine writing perhaps, but
you've had some really good names float quickly to the
(19:04):
top and it gave it's a way to get clips.
It used to be in my day you had to
have clips. Well, you have to be published to get
a publisher's or an editor's attention, but how do you
get those first clips? Blogging lets you do that, and
that's that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It still gives you a voice that you know, always
get to use when you're working for a specific type
of newspaper or magazine where you have to tailor to
fit what their voice is. So I think that's another advantage,
and you're right. It does provide clips and opportunities. And
there's some amazing bloggers out there who are very good writers.
They have a blog. It's you know, for me personally,
(19:41):
the two are interchangeable because you're writing on a blog.
But you know, we could go on about that forever.
So before we get into some issues you've covered, tell
everybody about Dave McIntyre's wine line because you recently launched it.
I have reagonally launched substack and still grappling with some things.
What is how is it going? And how are you
(20:03):
choosing your topics? Because you're very frequent, you're writing a lot.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Well that's probably the initial burst of energy from my
retirement rewirement, as it were, I was just to fill
in the details for your listeners. I retired from the
Washington Post wine column after sixteen years at the end
of the year. That was a freelance gig. I also
(20:29):
retired at the same time from my federal government job
of twenty two years. I had gone in two thousand
and three from journalism to public affairs for a government agency,
and I was thinking of taking a break. I always
had in mind that i'd continue writing and substack would
(20:50):
be a good forum for it. I like it. It's
a lot easier than WordPress to use because I'm not
particularly tech savvy. And I was going to take a break,
but then the Surgeon General came out with that silly
advisory about wine or alcohol and health effects. So I
just jumped in and I am trying to find a
(21:14):
good rhythm for writing, and we'll see. I'll just try
to keep it up. I hadn't kept up the blog
because I was writing articles I was getting paid for.
So you know, now I have more time, and I
see what I can do with this on substat Well.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Maybe also think about writing a book. I mean, one
of the reasons I launched subsack is to force myself
in the paid area to serialize a book, because everybody's like,
write the damn book, right, So that's the way to
do it. You know. You write about recently and I
think this is an interesting point. Wine is community. And
I actually just changed the word wine industry to wine
community because I was inspired. There's a lot of talk
(21:55):
about that right now, because there's a lot of talk
about changing the conversation about wine. I think I saw
recently several new campaigns talking about the community of wine
and gathering together and somewhere somehow, and I couldn't find it.
Before we started the show, I saw somebody talking about
how wine will help if you're feeling isolated. I had
(22:17):
few issues about that, But somebody's launching a campaign about that.
What you said, you are going to say community in
that industry, And I think that's a great point. Why
do you feel that's important in the narrative and conversation
as we move forward to encourage people to turn to wine. Well, I.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Think because I prefer community over industry, because industry just
seems so impersonal. It seems like you're reducing it to
statistics about sales, and production and acreage undervine and things
like that, and value contributed to the economy. And you know,
(23:05):
we write about business and we get sort of mired
down in some of those stories. And I like the
historical and cultural aspect of wine. I love writing about things,
the connections through history, you know, Like to me, you mentioned,
(23:32):
say Shremsburg, and yeah, great sparkling wine from Napa Valley,
Calistoga area. But there's the history of Yukam Shram and
how he hosted Robert Lewis Stevenson, who wrote the famous
quote that the wine tastes like bottled poetry after visiting there,
(23:54):
and more recently as somebody who grew up in the
Washington area interested in politics and especially foreign policy. Schramsburg
of course played a role in President Nixon's trip to
China in nineteen seventy two as the wine that Nixon
used to toast Joe and lie with. And I wrote
(24:16):
about that a couple of years ago, the fiftieth anniversary,
and that that's the kind of story I really enjoy writing.
And you know, culturally, through biblical times, wine has been
with us, and it's become a little controversial lately, perhaps
because it's Western culture, but it is those are discussions
(24:41):
that we can have and they're interesting and fascinating to
write about. But also just wine is such a social
drink to me, it tastes better when I'm sharing it
with somebody. It almost really demands to be shared, and
that's connection and community.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
It also with you on that and the storytelling is
so much more interesting than it's like, you know, I
can't stand it when we go on visit a winery
on a trip and whoever's leading the tour besides forgetting
to introduce who that person is to us, we'll start
launching right into everything about the viticulture and and a
(25:19):
lot of the science and the agriculture without telling the
history of who is behind who are the people behind
this winery and how old is it? And how old
is this estate and how did the family come to
own it? And that happens a lot, and I'm the
one that you just goes, excuse me. Could we start
at the very beginning.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Where there's always the wine nerd who asks, what's the
same posh? Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Oh, we know that, Oh, we know that there's always
somebody who does that.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
My favorite Melanie was when we were we were in
Italy and we were at a winery and we were
standing in the in the front room of the winery,
and there was an F one car in the lobby
of the winery and we were talking about wine for
twenty minutes, and all of a sudden we were like,
let's let's address the elephant in the room.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Was this F one car doing here?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
You know?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
We sat out in the vineyard with the with the
I guess he was the wine maker. I don't know
who was fit of culture, and he was going on
and on and on about the soil and store. It
was great, but there was six F one stay sitting
there like, why is there a racing car right here
in the middle of the winery? And it was That
was the start of the story. But that happens all
that's where the owner made his money. That's where you know,
(26:27):
we always like to ask, how did you really make
your money before going into the wine business. There's always
a great backstory.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yeah, where'd you get the large fortune to make the
small one? Right? Correct? We all know that one.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
So obviously we've all been in the wine business a
long time. And you know, I had a conversation with
a wine importer about a month ago, and he said,
you know, for the people that aren't drinking wine, we
need to get them to start drinking wine, and what
can we do to make that happen? And he also
(27:03):
told me wine has never been as well made as
it is now across the board, and it's just a
great time to be drinking wine. How do you feel
that we can get that younger generation, as somebody who's
been in wine for a long time, to start to
embrace wine more.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
You know, I think the wine community maybe industry would
be the appropriate word for this part of the conversation,
but I think there's a little, maybe a little too
much hand ringing over that, and we sound a little
bit too much like the drug pusher hanging around the schoolyard.
How do we get these youngsters hooked on our product?
(27:43):
That's true, and I don't think just make really good wine.
And that person's right. Overall, technically wine is better than
it ever has been, and you know, right now there's
(28:05):
a glut and the industry. This is kind of if
I can step back in a minute, when I started
with the Post back in eight and even before that,
when I started writing about wine, you know, we were
full thrust in this sixty minutes French paradox wave of
(28:25):
wine is good for you, And you know wine should
be an everyday drink. Well, okay, then you have all
the cheap wine. And I'm trying to write that wine
should be accessible. You shouldn't be afraid of it, you
shouldn't worry about snobs, you know, and you should just
(28:49):
enjoy it. And now what are we what are we seeing?
There's a glut of wine on the market. Vineyards are
being ripped out in California and in France, and the
industry the business is moving away from the low cost
wine more back towards higher end wine and emphasizing that.
(29:12):
And that means that we are going away from this
accessibility more towards You need the specialized knowledge. You need
to be the insider. You need to know what krar
supposedly means, and you need to ask about the sepage
or even the pH God help you to appreciate and
(29:36):
enjoy wine. And that may or may not be good.
But people are drinking less. We're more mindful of consumption.
And this is where I think we should concentrate on
making sure that the public debate stays on responsible moderate
(29:58):
consumption and doesn't swing all the way to no consumption.
This whole thing that any alcohol is poison, you shouldn't
drink it at all. I mean, that's a personal decision,
but I think we should keep the debate on responsible
moderate consumption where it has been appropriately for as long
(30:22):
as I've been drinking wine, and rather than this what
I call the new prohibition that's that's coming in with
that is no safe level of consumption. But you know,
you see people are drinking less but drinking better. So
instead of buying a ten dollars bottle of wine and
(30:44):
having a bottle every night, maybe we'll drink it on
the weekend and have a forty or fifty dollars bottle.
And that's kind of the trend the way I see
the direction going right now, and it'll swing back someday.
That was a long winded answer to how do we
get the young people hooked on our product?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
But I think that leads into it. I mean, I
think it's I think that you were going through a phase.
And you know, I've been a long time promoter of
mindful moderation, whether you're eating or drinking, because you could
apply the same concept to cheese or meat or other
foods that can also be vilified as as over consuming
(31:24):
too much is not great for you because a saturated fat.
It's just that there seems to be coming from my
prior marketing and pure background. Somebody's got a big machine
behind them paying the bills to get this message out
that wine is bad for you. That's the bottom line.
There's funding that's being forward that and it's you know, unfortunately,
it creates a lot of what I call the the
(31:47):
It just it just keeps domino affecting, you know, the story,
and it's just it's a shame because it's it's over analyzed,
and I think it's creating this doomsday approach to wine.
Although I do feel that, you know, we all probably
consume too much wine during COVID and everybody then got
out of their sequestering mode, went to the doctor, and
(32:09):
probably some people were told that they have a little
fatty liver or gained too much weight, maybe they should
cut back. And I think that they're doing this crazy
reset that goes the other way, which is what happens
when you go to the doctor and they say you
need to lose some weight. Right, So I think that
may have contributed to that's the melanie thinking of it
that we kind of overdid it and then we are
(32:29):
trying to reset.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
But that also feeds into the drink less but better
right idea. You know, exactly what your splurge wine might
become your regular wine if you're only drinking wine every
so often. And you know, and when you look at
the spreadsheet for a winery, that's not necessarily going to
be good news depending on you know, what model the
(32:54):
winery was following. Yeah, you're talking business again.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Well, you know, there's there's the enjoyment of wine and
there's as we call it, the CpG consumer product good
aspect of wine, which is the icky part that we
don't like writing about, but somebody with a spreadsheet loves
to talk about.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And that's where they start making cheaper wine to move
it through the process so that you can you know,
it's like it's like high fashion low fashion, same concept.
You have your your better fashion, but you create the
low level stuff at the the JC penny line just
to pay the bills. Same with wine. Yeah, so you
(33:32):
know it's kind of the nature of business. Uh. You know,
you've a lot of interviewed a lot of people. Is
there anyone dead or alive that you would like to
interview or have interviewed and why.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Well, if I had a way back machine, I would
love to discuss wine with Tom S. Jefferson. I think
he was obviously very important in US history, US wine history,
I mean, and he seemed to really appreciate it. But
(34:08):
he also knew that someday we would be making really
good wine here in the United States and in Virginia.
He wasn't able to do it himself for a number
of reasons, but he had that vision. And I always
(34:29):
tease my friends in Virginia that they could they could
just let Jefferson rest in peace. They're trying to cling
to his coattails very strongly. But it's also it's understandable
that they do, actually because it's it's a good story.
But that would be my way back travel. So time travel.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's a great answer. It's interesting. I assume you've read
the really trufic book Wine in the White House. Yes, yeah,
really good book. And it's so interesting to see how
wine has had such an important role in you know,
in in office, but also in in in government affairs
(35:10):
and sharing between different governments and over the table. I mean,
you know, we did a show with some folks at
the Smithsonian about the whole aspect of you know, I
forgot the term on politics over the table, and it
was interesting to see the role of food and wine
and bringing countries together.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah, the Smithsonian has a great food and wine history project. Yeah,
they do a great job there.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
So you've had a really long career, day of and
congratulations because you are really one of the few that
had the longevity in the industry that's still alive. And
you know with great Bill Rice, we loved him, and
you know Eric Asthma still plogging away amazing and Ray Isle. Uh,
some of our other friends in the business have you
(36:02):
know who had great positions right now doing their best independently.
God bless them. What is your advice to anyone who
aspires to be a writer much as a wine writer,
Let's just start with a writer in journalism. Other than
to make sure you have a sustainable day job while
you're getting started.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Well, that's where I was going to jump to to
be honest, or at least a very supportive spouse with
a good day job in regular and income and health insurance.
But I think mainly, I think you just you need
to write. And the opportunity to write, as we discussed earlier,
(36:46):
is it's easy now because there are platforms like sub
stack or other publishing platforms, blogging platforms, and that, Yeah,
it's you a a rhythm, you find your voice. That way,
you can you can have something to show people. You
(37:10):
can even get noticed by by somebody that you aren't
actively approaching or trying to get their attention. And I
mean that's the I think that's the simplest advice that
anyone should have. And and you're once you do get
(37:31):
into a point where you're publishing, you won't necessarily like
everything that you're writing, but if you're getting paid for it,
that's that's good. And writing for yourself is important too.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I agree with that, you know, I think for subseach
and for me, it's writing for myself, and then we
write for the Connected table, which is a little different.
Sometimes I don't really like. Sometimes I'm excited about the
stories i'm assigneds a freelancer, and then as I get
into him, I peter out with interest and go, oh god,
why did I pitch that? But you got to keep
doing it? I think to underscore. If you want to write, write,
(38:11):
make it a discipline. I don't know if you ever
read the morning page Julia Cameron's book, The Artist's Way.
It's a best selling book, and I've interviewed her and
she wrote, write three pages a day. That's her advice
to artists. Write three pages long hand a day as
your discipline or whatever.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I don't think my hand would last that long anymore
because I been so long since I've written by hand.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, so I was curious about that. Do you how
do you take your notes? I mean, David Ransom does
it on his phone. I know people who still have
their long hand little handbook. I kind of started doing
phone because I can't read my handwriting. What did you do?
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah? I've got, you know, a lot of Moleskins that
I used to buy, the little ones that I kind
of liked, the bigger ones, and I have a bunch
that are free, and every time I am going to
a tasting or something, I just grab whichever one I
can find, which means I have a scattering of notebooks
around my table here with notes in them that sometimes
(39:16):
I can actually read later. So yeah, I should actually
start dictating things into my phone. I'm always self conscious
doing that at a tasting or something. I mean, it's
awkward enough to have a notebook and a pen and
a wine glass and a spit cup and whatever and
(39:40):
a crowd of elbows trying to get to a table.
So I don't know, I need to modernize a little bit.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
I don't know. I have all these notebooks I'm steering
at him as we're talking around here, and I still
write in them. I kind of do a hybrid because
I actually like the process of writing handwriting. I still
keep diaries. It's it's kind of calming. But when you're
the jostling issue is a big one because you really
are jostling a lot. So we're just kind of resorting
to phones, even though my thumbs are just horrible. I mean,
(40:12):
if the worse typos, and it's just easier for me.
It's just easier.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Yeah, I am a fan of I have. I've subscribed
to an app called Otter that is an AI driven
recording and transcription app. So when doing zoom conversations like this,
I can turn it on and I don't have to
(40:36):
take notes. I can spontaneously enjoy the conversation and it
transcribes does a fairly good job. Although wine terms can
be confusing and foreign accidents can be confusing, but it's
a lot easier than trying to take notes and then
(40:56):
be typing something when the person says something really interesting
that I miss.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Check that out. Just Zoom does have an AI. By
the way, Zoom has an AI because this is being
aied right now.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, and I think they've added well I don't know
when they added that, but Apple Intelligence now coming out.
My computer just updated yesterday and things like that. So
that is a great tool. I think it is.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
I know that when we get the recap of our interviews,
it helps when we create the writing component of every
interview we do. And I have to laugh though, because
when we do look at the cranscript some of the
some of the ways of wiser explained in the regions,
you just have to laugh.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yes, I think, at least with honor, I discovered there's
a way that you can train it by entering certain
words into a database that so it will recognize them.
So you can do that with wine terms. Maybe not
Spanish accents.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
But well, somebody in the artificial intelligence realm in the
wine world. I've done an article that we could do
quite well. Creating an app that can actually translate wine terms.
I know that's a possibility, and that's that would be
a very valuable thing for people because I mean, I
remember trans you know, I remember just trying to go
(42:22):
through a transcript trying to correct everything. It took click,
you know, forever.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
It might get confused between Marlow and Marlow though.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
But you know what, there's a great job opportunity for
writers in training, people who want to write, to edit
transcripts from AI. That's a great paid job. I've told
a couple of people about that. Yeah, yeah, no, I've
done it. And you could charge more for that because
you know, they're desperate to get that edited transcript and
they don't have anybody to do it, and it takes
(42:54):
somebody with wine knowledge to understand what the hell literally means,
which is vigna because the spellings are so off the wall.
So that is an opportunity for people who want to
get into copy editing and writing. Two last questions. We
always like to ask this to our wine friends. How
would you describe your personality as a wineer writing?
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Oh, Laura, I never thought of that before. I'm trying
to decide between grooner velt Leaner and Gammy and Grooner
because it's deceptively complex, and I think you have to
sort of pay a little attention to appreciate it. Gamme
because it's easy going and enjoyable and very likable and
(43:37):
as a great accompaniment to everything, and that's maybe a
little aspirational for me. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
The answers are always very interesting, right David.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
They always are.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Sorry to stump you, but it's always fun to end
that way. So let's end with this, Dave mcintie.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
My reaction is evidence that these questions were not fed
to me in advance.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Work. So Dave again, how can our listeners find and
follow you?
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Again? Thank you? It's dmwind line dot substack dot com
and it's as you said, I'm posting fairly often, but
I'm calling it unfined, unfiltered, and unfettered news and views online.
So I'll try to live up to that, especially the unfettered.
(44:29):
That's where I can get my snark in. That doesn't
always get into a major newspaper article.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
So what wine pairs with snark? We'll have to tape
that for another conversation. Thank you, Dave for joining us
on The Connected Table Live. It's been a really great
conversation and it's wonderful to spend time with you.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Thank you, thank you, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
You've been listening to The Connected Table Live with Melanie
Young and David Ransom. We hope you enjoy this. You
can listen to all our shows and more than sixty
five podcasts channels on demand anytime. So dig deep because
we've done this for twelve years and there's some great,
great conversations. Follow us on the Connected Table on Instagram,
follow us on the Connected Table or blog that is
(45:14):
part of my Melanie Fabulous substack. And always our message
to you is stay insatiably curious.
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(00:20):
W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome to the Connected Table Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
Young and David Ransom. You're insatiably curious culinary couple. We
enjoy traveling the world to bring you the dynamic people
who work front and center and behind the scenes in wine, food,
spirits and hospitality around the world. We love sharing their
store worries with you and bringing who they are to
(01:02):
light and really if we do it through what we
love to do best, which is a conversation. Right David
and we, as you know both write. We love sharing
stories through audio and our podcast as well as in
digital in print, and we started a series here on
the Connecting Cable called Behind the Byline to bring you
(01:25):
the people who share stories through words, renowned journalists who
are thought leaders. And today we have someone who has
a very long career as a wine journalist, Dave McIntyre,
who you know. He was an established East Coast wine
critic with his own newsletter, The Wine Line, for many years.
(01:48):
He lives in Bethesda and has been a big advocate
for Virginia wines, which we love, and then he was
tapped by Washington Post to be their official wine critic
in columnists for several years. I think it was like sixteen,
and he recently retired and now is rewired. We were
talking about that before the show. It's not retired, it's rewire,
(02:11):
and he has relaunched on substack, a platform that I
have just launched as well, his Dave McIntyre Wine Line,
which is the original name of the newsletter. He's now
on Substack, and we're really happy about it because he
has very witty, engaging, thought provoking writing. It always gets
a lot of comments and we're really very happy to
(02:32):
have Dave join us today. So Dave McIntyre, welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Thank you, Melanie and David. It's good to see you
and good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Well, it's been a while. I think you've traveled, maybe
with David Radley.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Actually remember you and I traveled in two thousand and
seven to Mantulcino in Tuscany together too.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Brunello. Yes, that was a wonderful event.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
And it's probably one of our favorite wines. Still we
have a lot of it here. So Dave, we always
start our shows with your backstory. We take it back
to your childhood, like who was little Dave and where
did he grow up and what was his interest? Because
we all know that as a child, your interest is
not wine, it's something.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Else so long ago. I'm not sure I remember, but no,
I was born in Washington, d c. And grew up
in the northern Virginia suburbs, so my interest was kind
of current events and news. I studied government in college
(03:35):
and political science and grad school and or I should
stay gradual school because I gradually decided I didn't want
to go to school anymore and sort of ended up
in journalism here in DC and fell in love with
wine along the way, and writing about it became a
(03:56):
way to learn about it.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
That's a good point. You also, like me, studied government
affairs and had a kind of a dual career like
many people do, working in public affairs for a long time.
You also have left that position. Congratulations, which is great.
So what was the wine that first captured your interests?
(04:21):
I know my dad was, and Dave and I both
have families in the wine business in different areas, and
I remember sitting down and tasting with my dad and
learning about wine and tasting the early California wines. What
were the wines that first captured you that kind of
pussy and capture that made you want to pursue writing.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Well, it was on a trip to California visiting friends
in the Bay Area, and our friends took us up
to Napa for an afternoon and visiting the wineries there.
This was in the would have been nineteen eighty eight,
and so Napa the valley wasn't as nearly as touristy
(05:02):
or crowded as it is now. But we went to
three or four wineries and it was a lot of fun,
a lot of impressive. The last one we went to
was this little place in the oak Wood area where
we actually had to pay for the tasting, which seemed scandalous.
At the time, but the glass was twice as big
(05:24):
as it was at the previous wineries. And we were there,
the four of us and one other couple for a
little private tour. The wine was twenty five dollars a bottle,
which seemed exorbitant. It was this little label named Silver Oak,
and right before they became the cult that they were,
(05:46):
and we just got hooked and decided we liked wine.
And when we came home, we hung around the wine
stores in downtown d C. On Saturday afternoons for the
free tastings. We sampled, we purchased, we met people, grew
our circle of friends that way. It was a lot
of fun. And of course, since we started at wineries
(06:08):
in California, we went to some of the local wineries
here in the very early stages of the Virginia wine renaissance,
as it were, and that got our interest in local
wines going, and that, of course has been a big
part of what I've been writing about in the decades since.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
You know, it's interesting that you kind of came to
it that way. We actually interviewed Silver Oak about a
month ago or maybe two months ago on the show,
and it's a fascinating story on that end, and it's
still family run, which isn't the norm I think in
Napa at this point because there's so much corporate ownership
in Napa now, So it's nice to see that there's
still family run as well. But it's a I love
(06:48):
how you got into East Coast wine as well, because
my family actually owned a winery in New York for
many years, and so I came to it from the
East Coast perspective of wine when I actually started writing
as well.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But Virginia wine really has had a renaissance, and we've
been blessed to have gone to at least one Governor's
Cup and crisscrossed the East Coast, stopping in Virginia to
visit with many wineries whose producers we've interviewed. You actually
was a co founder of Drink Local Wine, which is
two thousand and eight, which David's older brother Bob Ransom,
(07:22):
did that in New York with Vintage New York and
New York State Wine. It really defined locovar and people
wanting to support local producers. Do you think that's still
happening now? Are our consumers kind of particularly the younger
ones zipping here and there, trying different things based on
(07:42):
what they're reading and thinking. Is cool.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Well, I think it is happening, and I actually think
that initially the pandemic may have helped because we are
all traveling less and staycations became the thing, so it
was easier once things began to open up a little
bit for people to make a day trip to local wineries,
(08:06):
and I think that helped. I also think younger drinkers
aren't as i'd bound as people of our generation might be.
You know, I still hear people of my age say,
you know, I tasted a Virginia wine once back in
nineteen seventy eight, and I didn't think it was very good,
(08:27):
and I just, you know, slapped my forehead and try
not to slap them. But things have obviously changed and
the wines have gotten a lot better, and younger drinkers
are discovering them without that prejudice, without that supposed knowledge
(08:48):
that it's difficult to make wine on the East Coast
or you can't do it, or it has to be
from California or the West coast. And I think that's
an advantage. There's still you know, you can still playing
that there's not enough Virginia Wine on restaurant lists in Washington,
DC or whatever, or New York Wine on New York
City lists, And yeah, there's always room for improvement that way,
(09:13):
but I think it's a lot better than it was
ten or fifteen years ago when I started beating that drum.
And I've had people thank me for opening their eyes
and leading them to Virginia Wine over the years, so
that's gratifying.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Well, you know, when you launched your first launch of
Dave mcintarry's wind Line in nineteen ninety nine, you were
doing this as a newsletter. You right, that you were
doing as a newsletter because blogging sounded just too much tech,
and you developed a following. What was your initial mission
when you decided to launch it. Did you have a
(09:55):
specific focus you wanted to address or were you kind
of equal opportunity?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Well, it was very opportunistic, perhaps, is the better word.
I had been writing for two years for a website
called sub Sidewalk sidewalk dot com, which was published by Microsoft,
and they were in several cities, including Washington, DC, and
(10:22):
I was writing a wine column for the Washington Sidewalk
and this was something that Bill Gates was still head
of Microsoft at the time, and he just said he
had said, I'm going to give it two years to
see if we can make a profit, and he wasn't
making a profit, so right at two years he stole
it off and shut it down. And that was right
(10:42):
before somebody invented banner ads and websites became potentially profitable
providing content. So at this time I just wanted to
keep writing and try to get my name out there,
and I collected email addresses from friends and created Dave
(11:04):
McIntyre's Wine Line to send out once some month or
whenever I got around to writing something and send it
to these to my email lists. So it wasn't posted anywhere.
I don't think anybody had invented the word blog yet
at that point, but I kept that going for a
little bit and got some other articles published in Wine
(11:27):
Enthusiast and another website called winetoday dot com that you
may remember. It was a New York Times site done
out of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, I believe, and
it was edited by Tim Fish who's now with Wine Spectator,
and Leslie Sobroco, who has gone on to a great
(11:49):
television career In San Francisco. So and Leslie had done
San Francisco Sidewalk, so that was a connection.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, that Sidewalks was a good gig. I know a
couple of people who I think Tom Sisimo did it
in the food end of things. As I recall, he
was my.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Editor at Washington Sidewalk and he schooled me in the
fine art of stealing menus from restaurants.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Well, I hope you all got pay in stock, That's
all I have to say.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Now we didn't. Actually it was per Peace unfortunately too bad.
Like you said, writing doesn't pay.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It's very funny.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
We're all proof of that, that's for sure. So you
wrote Wineline for a number of years, and then in
two thousand and eight, the Washington Post Tappy to become
their wine columnist. Why don't you tell us about that
involvement in transition.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Well, it was the transition for me, you mean, it
was basically when I started out saying I'd like to
write about wine, I kind of had in mind that
doing the wine column for the Washington Post, my hometown paper,
would be the dream job. So I kind of bited
(13:07):
my time. They had some transition in food editors and
in the wine column itself, and when I got the chance,
it was really a dream come true. And the editor,
the Food editor at the time, Joe Yonan, who was
still the Food editor, doing a great job there and
(13:28):
having a pretty successful career as a cookbook author too
is He and I were in agreement that we would
do something try to be a little bit not the
typical wine column, though not necessarily revolutionary. But one of
the things I really wanted to focus on was the
(13:49):
local angle, and he was very supportive of that, and
that helped with the Drink Local Wine that you mentioned,
the group that Jeff Siegel, the Wine Curmudgeon, and I
co founded to encourage other writers to focus on local
wine and help get the word out that way, and
(14:11):
we were able to shine some light on Texas wine, Virginia, Maryland, Missouri,
and Colorado wine. Actually over the few years and that
kind of petered out. As I put it, we declared
victory and went home, as it were. But after five
or six years, at that point, many more mainstream food
(14:36):
and wine publications were beginning to write about the wine
revolution outside the West Coast, and that was great, and
I think we had an impact on that. Obviously, writing
the newspaper column. You're writing about the world of wine.
You're not necessarily focusing on one thing. I just wanted
(15:00):
to help readers realize that there's such a great variety
out there and get outside your comfort zone a little bit.
You don't have to spend a fortune on it to
find really good wine.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So you really had a unique position because there's very few.
I was trying to think in my head how many
actually newspaper wine columnists are left. I can only think
of like four.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, there aren't very many. I think the partly the
nature of the business. A lot of it. You know,
the newspaper business is being crunched financially. A lot of
the papers are shrunk. Local coverage is kind of gone
(15:50):
by the wayside, and the major publications are increasingly digital.
And while I wrote about wines from around the world,
it was pretty much kind of for a local audience.
The impact I would hear would be that from a
say a retailer who would say, oh, people came into
(16:10):
the store looking for that wine you recommended, and I say, well,
did they have a computer print out of the column
or did they have something torn out of the print edition.
And it was always the print edition and you know
the unfortunately the newspaper is looking at the number of
clicks online, so there's that. It's just the way the
(16:32):
business was going. I think that has really put a
squeeze on wine columns.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I also think David David, there's just a lot of
people out there who are writing about wine now, and
the bar there's a you know, you can either say
it's lowering the bar or raising the bar, depending how
you think up the quality of the writing. But everybody
is now could be a wine writer, and therefore it's cheap.
(17:00):
It's you know, knowing the dismal rates that freelancers get
and the fact that many are writing for free now,
which is depressing. That's okay. Lowering the bar is when
people agree to write for free in change for exposure.
That's eliminating the that's eliminating the bar, and too many
people are doing that. Too many people are doing that
and offering that. Raising the bar is when the remaining
(17:20):
media left pay fair rates and respect the work of
all writers and not just wine writers. But it's challenging
because we're seeing a lot of that, and we're seeing
a lot of dollars being converted to influencers, and in fact,
one of the Silicon Valley wine reports, you know, one
of the fallouts from that. I was just looking at
the San Francisco Chronicle, which has a wine section, and
(17:43):
they were saying, you know, if you're not digitally diverse
and digitally dominant in wine, you are going to be
going down the drain. And they say, put your money
in influencers.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Now, yeah, I think obviously things have evolved. I can't
complain about the Internet because my newsletter that you know, started,
as I said, as an email. I then went to
type pad and then the WordPress and now to substack,
So DM Wineline, dot substack dot com but also sidewalk, Winetoday,
(18:20):
dot Com were stepping stones for me. So without those pubblications,
I probably would have had a much harder time getting
into print publications like Washingtonian Magazine or Dcmodern Luxury and
the Washington Post. So I can't really complain about that.
(18:43):
And I think the the blogging revolution as it were,
that happened started about I guess twenty years ago. Like
you said, it's a democratization of wine writing perhaps, but
you've had some really good names float quickly to the
(19:04):
top and it gave it's a way to get clips.
It used to be in my day you had to
have clips. Well, you have to be published to get
a publisher's or an editor's attention, but how do you
get those first clips? Blogging lets you do that, and
that's that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It still gives you a voice that you know, always
get to use when you're working for a specific type
of newspaper or magazine where you have to tailor to
fit what their voice is. So I think that's another advantage,
and you're right. It does provide clips and opportunities. And
there's some amazing bloggers out there who are very good writers.
They have a blog. It's you know, for me personally,
(19:41):
the two are interchangeable because you're writing on a blog.
But you know, we could go on about that forever.
So before we get into some issues you've covered, tell
everybody about Dave McIntyre's wine line because you recently launched it.
I have reagonally launched substack and still grappling with some things.
What is how is it going? And how are you
(20:03):
choosing your topics? Because you're very frequent, you're writing a lot.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Well that's probably the initial burst of energy from my
retirement rewirement, as it were, I was just to fill
in the details for your listeners. I retired from the
Washington Post wine column after sixteen years at the end
of the year. That was a freelance gig. I also
(20:29):
retired at the same time from my federal government job
of twenty two years. I had gone in two thousand
and three from journalism to public affairs for a government agency,
and I was thinking of taking a break. I always
had in mind that i'd continue writing and substack would
(20:50):
be a good forum for it. I like it. It's
a lot easier than WordPress to use because I'm not
particularly tech savvy. And I was going to take a break,
but then the Surgeon General came out with that silly
advisory about wine or alcohol and health effects. So I
just jumped in and I am trying to find a
(21:14):
good rhythm for writing, and we'll see. I'll just try
to keep it up. I hadn't kept up the blog
because I was writing articles I was getting paid for.
So you know, now I have more time, and I
see what I can do with this on substat Well.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Maybe also think about writing a book. I mean, one
of the reasons I launched subsack is to force myself
in the paid area to serialize a book, because everybody's like,
write the damn book, right, So that's the way to
do it. You know. You write about recently and I
think this is an interesting point. Wine is community. And
I actually just changed the word wine industry to wine
community because I was inspired. There's a lot of talk
(21:55):
about that right now, because there's a lot of talk
about changing the conversation about wine. I think I saw
recently several new campaigns talking about the community of wine
and gathering together and somewhere somehow, and I couldn't find it.
Before we started the show, I saw somebody talking about
how wine will help if you're feeling isolated. I had
(22:17):
few issues about that, But somebody's launching a campaign about that.
What you said, you are going to say community in
that industry, And I think that's a great point. Why
do you feel that's important in the narrative and conversation
as we move forward to encourage people to turn to wine. Well, I.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Think because I prefer community over industry, because industry just
seems so impersonal. It seems like you're reducing it to
statistics about sales, and production and acreage undervine and things
like that, and value contributed to the economy. And you know,
(23:05):
we write about business and we get sort of mired
down in some of those stories. And I like the
historical and cultural aspect of wine. I love writing about things,
the connections through history, you know, Like to me, you mentioned,
(23:32):
say Shremsburg, and yeah, great sparkling wine from Napa Valley,
Calistoga area. But there's the history of Yukam Shram and
how he hosted Robert Lewis Stevenson, who wrote the famous
quote that the wine tastes like bottled poetry after visiting there,
(23:54):
and more recently as somebody who grew up in the
Washington area interested in politics and especially foreign policy. Schramsburg
of course played a role in President Nixon's trip to
China in nineteen seventy two as the wine that Nixon
used to toast Joe and lie with. And I wrote
(24:16):
about that a couple of years ago, the fiftieth anniversary,
and that that's the kind of story I really enjoy writing.
And you know, culturally, through biblical times, wine has been
with us, and it's become a little controversial lately, perhaps
because it's Western culture, but it is those are discussions
(24:41):
that we can have and they're interesting and fascinating to
write about. But also just wine is such a social
drink to me, it tastes better when I'm sharing it
with somebody. It almost really demands to be shared, and
that's connection and community.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
It also with you on that and the storytelling is
so much more interesting than it's like, you know, I
can't stand it when we go on visit a winery
on a trip and whoever's leading the tour besides forgetting
to introduce who that person is to us, we'll start
launching right into everything about the viticulture and and a
(25:19):
lot of the science and the agriculture without telling the
history of who is behind who are the people behind
this winery and how old is it? And how old
is this estate and how did the family come to
own it? And that happens a lot, and I'm the
one that you just goes, excuse me. Could we start
at the very beginning.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Where there's always the wine nerd who asks, what's the
same posh? Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Oh, we know that, Oh, we know that there's always
somebody who does that.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
My favorite Melanie was when we were we were in
Italy and we were at a winery and we were
standing in the in the front room of the winery,
and there was an F one car in the lobby
of the winery and we were talking about wine for
twenty minutes, and all of a sudden we were like,
let's let's address the elephant in the room.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Was this F one car doing here?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
You know?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
We sat out in the vineyard with the with the
I guess he was the wine maker. I don't know
who was fit of culture, and he was going on
and on and on about the soil and store. It
was great, but there was six F one stay sitting
there like, why is there a racing car right here
in the middle of the winery? And it was That
was the start of the story. But that happens all
that's where the owner made his money. That's where you know,
(26:27):
we always like to ask, how did you really make
your money before going into the wine business. There's always
a great backstory.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yeah, where'd you get the large fortune to make the
small one? Right? Correct? We all know that one.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
So obviously we've all been in the wine business a
long time. And you know, I had a conversation with
a wine importer about a month ago, and he said,
you know, for the people that aren't drinking wine, we
need to get them to start drinking wine, and what
can we do to make that happen? And he also
(27:03):
told me wine has never been as well made as
it is now across the board, and it's just a
great time to be drinking wine. How do you feel
that we can get that younger generation, as somebody who's
been in wine for a long time, to start to
embrace wine more.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
You know, I think the wine community maybe industry would
be the appropriate word for this part of the conversation,
but I think there's a little, maybe a little too
much hand ringing over that, and we sound a little
bit too much like the drug pusher hanging around the schoolyard.
How do we get these youngsters hooked on our product?
(27:43):
That's true, and I don't think just make really good wine.
And that person's right. Overall, technically wine is better than
it ever has been, and you know, right now there's
(28:05):
a glut and the industry. This is kind of if
I can step back in a minute, when I started
with the Post back in eight and even before that,
when I started writing about wine, you know, we were
full thrust in this sixty minutes French paradox wave of
(28:25):
wine is good for you, And you know wine should
be an everyday drink. Well, okay, then you have all
the cheap wine. And I'm trying to write that wine
should be accessible. You shouldn't be afraid of it, you
shouldn't worry about snobs, you know, and you should just
(28:49):
enjoy it. And now what are we what are we seeing?
There's a glut of wine on the market. Vineyards are
being ripped out in California and in France, and the
industry the business is moving away from the low cost
wine more back towards higher end wine and emphasizing that.
(29:12):
And that means that we are going away from this
accessibility more towards You need the specialized knowledge. You need
to be the insider. You need to know what krar
supposedly means, and you need to ask about the sepage
or even the pH God help you to appreciate and
(29:36):
enjoy wine. And that may or may not be good.
But people are drinking less. We're more mindful of consumption.
And this is where I think we should concentrate on
making sure that the public debate stays on responsible moderate
(29:58):
consumption and doesn't swing all the way to no consumption.
This whole thing that any alcohol is poison, you shouldn't
drink it at all. I mean, that's a personal decision,
but I think we should keep the debate on responsible
moderate consumption where it has been appropriately for as long
(30:22):
as I've been drinking wine, and rather than this what
I call the new prohibition that's that's coming in with
that is no safe level of consumption. But you know,
you see people are drinking less but drinking better. So
instead of buying a ten dollars bottle of wine and
(30:44):
having a bottle every night, maybe we'll drink it on
the weekend and have a forty or fifty dollars bottle.
And that's kind of the trend the way I see
the direction going right now, and it'll swing back someday.
That was a long winded answer to how do we
get the young people hooked on our product?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
But I think that leads into it. I mean, I
think it's I think that you were going through a phase.
And you know, I've been a long time promoter of
mindful moderation, whether you're eating or drinking, because you could
apply the same concept to cheese or meat or other
foods that can also be vilified as as over consuming
(31:24):
too much is not great for you because a saturated fat.
It's just that there seems to be coming from my
prior marketing and pure background. Somebody's got a big machine
behind them paying the bills to get this message out
that wine is bad for you. That's the bottom line.
There's funding that's being forward that and it's you know, unfortunately,
it creates a lot of what I call the the
(31:47):
It just it just keeps domino affecting, you know, the story,
and it's just it's a shame because it's it's over analyzed,
and I think it's creating this doomsday approach to wine.
Although I do feel that, you know, we all probably
consume too much wine during COVID and everybody then got
out of their sequestering mode, went to the doctor, and
(32:09):
probably some people were told that they have a little
fatty liver or gained too much weight, maybe they should
cut back. And I think that they're doing this crazy
reset that goes the other way, which is what happens
when you go to the doctor and they say you
need to lose some weight. Right, So I think that
may have contributed to that's the melanie thinking of it
that we kind of overdid it and then we are
(32:29):
trying to reset.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
But that also feeds into the drink less but better
right idea. You know, exactly what your splurge wine might
become your regular wine if you're only drinking wine every
so often. And you know, and when you look at
the spreadsheet for a winery, that's not necessarily going to
be good news depending on you know, what model the
(32:54):
winery was following. Yeah, you're talking business again.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Well, you know, there's there's the enjoyment of wine and
there's as we call it, the CpG consumer product good
aspect of wine, which is the icky part that we
don't like writing about, but somebody with a spreadsheet loves
to talk about.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And that's where they start making cheaper wine to move
it through the process so that you can you know,
it's like it's like high fashion low fashion, same concept.
You have your your better fashion, but you create the
low level stuff at the the JC penny line just
to pay the bills. Same with wine. Yeah, so you
(33:32):
know it's kind of the nature of business. Uh. You know,
you've a lot of interviewed a lot of people. Is
there anyone dead or alive that you would like to
interview or have interviewed and why.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Well, if I had a way back machine, I would
love to discuss wine with Tom S. Jefferson. I think
he was obviously very important in US history, US wine history,
I mean, and he seemed to really appreciate it. But
(34:08):
he also knew that someday we would be making really
good wine here in the United States and in Virginia.
He wasn't able to do it himself for a number
of reasons, but he had that vision. And I always
(34:29):
tease my friends in Virginia that they could they could
just let Jefferson rest in peace. They're trying to cling
to his coattails very strongly. But it's also it's understandable
that they do, actually because it's it's a good story.
But that would be my way back travel. So time travel.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's a great answer. It's interesting. I assume you've read
the really trufic book Wine in the White House. Yes, yeah,
really good book. And it's so interesting to see how
wine has had such an important role in you know,
in in office, but also in in in government affairs
(35:10):
and sharing between different governments and over the table. I mean,
you know, we did a show with some folks at
the Smithsonian about the whole aspect of you know, I
forgot the term on politics over the table, and it
was interesting to see the role of food and wine
and bringing countries together.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah, the Smithsonian has a great food and wine history project. Yeah,
they do a great job there.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
So you've had a really long career, day of and
congratulations because you are really one of the few that
had the longevity in the industry that's still alive. And
you know with great Bill Rice, we loved him, and
you know Eric Asthma still plogging away amazing and Ray Isle. Uh,
some of our other friends in the business have you
(36:02):
know who had great positions right now doing their best independently.
God bless them. What is your advice to anyone who
aspires to be a writer much as a wine writer,
Let's just start with a writer in journalism. Other than
to make sure you have a sustainable day job while
you're getting started.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Well, that's where I was going to jump to to
be honest, or at least a very supportive spouse with
a good day job in regular and income and health insurance.
But I think mainly, I think you just you need
to write. And the opportunity to write, as we discussed earlier,
(36:46):
is it's easy now because there are platforms like sub
stack or other publishing platforms, blogging platforms, and that, Yeah,
it's you a a rhythm, you find your voice. That way,
you can you can have something to show people. You
(37:10):
can even get noticed by by somebody that you aren't
actively approaching or trying to get their attention. And I
mean that's the I think that's the simplest advice that
anyone should have. And and you're once you do get
(37:31):
into a point where you're publishing, you won't necessarily like
everything that you're writing, but if you're getting paid for it,
that's that's good. And writing for yourself is important too.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I agree with that, you know, I think for subseach
and for me, it's writing for myself, and then we
write for the Connected table, which is a little different.
Sometimes I don't really like. Sometimes I'm excited about the
stories i'm assigneds a freelancer, and then as I get
into him, I peter out with interest and go, oh god,
why did I pitch that? But you got to keep
doing it? I think to underscore. If you want to write, write,
(38:11):
make it a discipline. I don't know if you ever
read the morning page Julia Cameron's book, The Artist's Way.
It's a best selling book, and I've interviewed her and
she wrote, write three pages a day. That's her advice
to artists. Write three pages long hand a day as
your discipline or whatever.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I don't think my hand would last that long anymore
because I been so long since I've written by hand.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, so I was curious about that. Do you how
do you take your notes? I mean, David Ransom does
it on his phone. I know people who still have
their long hand little handbook. I kind of started doing
phone because I can't read my handwriting. What did you do?
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah? I've got, you know, a lot of Moleskins that
I used to buy, the little ones that I kind
of liked, the bigger ones, and I have a bunch
that are free, and every time I am going to
a tasting or something, I just grab whichever one I
can find, which means I have a scattering of notebooks
around my table here with notes in them that sometimes
(39:16):
I can actually read later. So yeah, I should actually
start dictating things into my phone. I'm always self conscious
doing that at a tasting or something. I mean, it's
awkward enough to have a notebook and a pen and
a wine glass and a spit cup and whatever and
(39:40):
a crowd of elbows trying to get to a table.
So I don't know, I need to modernize a little bit.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
I don't know. I have all these notebooks I'm steering
at him as we're talking around here, and I still
write in them. I kind of do a hybrid because
I actually like the process of writing handwriting. I still
keep diaries. It's it's kind of calming. But when you're
the jostling issue is a big one because you really
are jostling a lot. So we're just kind of resorting
to phones, even though my thumbs are just horrible. I mean,
(40:12):
if the worse typos, and it's just easier for me.
It's just easier.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Yeah, I am a fan of I have. I've subscribed
to an app called Otter that is an AI driven
recording and transcription app. So when doing zoom conversations like this,
I can turn it on and I don't have to
(40:36):
take notes. I can spontaneously enjoy the conversation and it
transcribes does a fairly good job. Although wine terms can
be confusing and foreign accidents can be confusing, but it's
a lot easier than trying to take notes and then
(40:56):
be typing something when the person says something really interesting
that I miss.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Check that out. Just Zoom does have an AI. By
the way, Zoom has an AI because this is being
aied right now.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, and I think they've added well I don't know
when they added that, but Apple Intelligence now coming out.
My computer just updated yesterday and things like that. So
that is a great tool. I think it is.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
I know that when we get the recap of our interviews,
it helps when we create the writing component of every
interview we do. And I have to laugh though, because
when we do look at the cranscript some of the
some of the ways of wiser explained in the regions,
you just have to laugh.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yes, I think, at least with honor, I discovered there's
a way that you can train it by entering certain
words into a database that so it will recognize them.
So you can do that with wine terms. Maybe not
Spanish accents.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
But well, somebody in the artificial intelligence realm in the
wine world. I've done an article that we could do
quite well. Creating an app that can actually translate wine terms.
I know that's a possibility, and that's that would be
a very valuable thing for people because I mean, I
remember trans you know, I remember just trying to go
(42:22):
through a transcript trying to correct everything. It took click,
you know, forever.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
It might get confused between Marlow and Marlow though.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
But you know what, there's a great job opportunity for
writers in training, people who want to write, to edit
transcripts from AI. That's a great paid job. I've told
a couple of people about that. Yeah, yeah, no, I've
done it. And you could charge more for that because
you know, they're desperate to get that edited transcript and
they don't have anybody to do it, and it takes
(42:54):
somebody with wine knowledge to understand what the hell literally means,
which is vigna because the spellings are so off the wall.
So that is an opportunity for people who want to
get into copy editing and writing. Two last questions. We
always like to ask this to our wine friends. How
would you describe your personality as a wineer writing?
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Oh, Laura, I never thought of that before. I'm trying
to decide between grooner velt Leaner and Gammy and Grooner
because it's deceptively complex, and I think you have to
sort of pay a little attention to appreciate it. Gamme
because it's easy going and enjoyable and very likable and
(43:37):
as a great accompaniment to everything, and that's maybe a
little aspirational for me. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
The answers are always very interesting, right David.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
They always are.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Sorry to stump you, but it's always fun to end
that way. So let's end with this, Dave mcintie.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
My reaction is evidence that these questions were not fed
to me in advance.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Work. So Dave again, how can our listeners find and
follow you?
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Again? Thank you? It's dmwind line dot substack dot com
and it's as you said, I'm posting fairly often, but
I'm calling it unfined, unfiltered, and unfettered news and views online.
So I'll try to live up to that, especially the unfettered.
(44:29):
That's where I can get my snark in. That doesn't
always get into a major newspaper article.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
So what wine pairs with snark? We'll have to tape
that for another conversation. Thank you, Dave for joining us
on The Connected Table Live. It's been a really great
conversation and it's wonderful to spend time with you.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Thank you, thank you, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
You've been listening to The Connected Table Live with Melanie
Young and David Ransom. We hope you enjoy this. You
can listen to all our shows and more than sixty
five podcasts channels on demand anytime. So dig deep because
we've done this for twelve years and there's some great,
great conversations. Follow us on the Connected Table on Instagram,
follow us on the Connected Table or blog that is
(45:14):
part of my Melanie Fabulous substack. And always our message
to you is stay insatiably curious.
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