October 4, 2023 • 51 mins
In 1993 American Alex Gambal moved his family to Beaune to learn the wine business and embrace a French lifestyle. He apprenticed with Becky Wasserman, studied oenology, and established Domaine Alex Gambal in 1997. By the time he sold his business in 2019, Gambel owned 30 acres of vineyards that included the storied Grand Cru Bâtard Montrachet. In his memoir, "Climbing the Vines in Burgundy," Gambal portrays the grit, the challenges, the realities and rewards of producing fine wines.
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The Connected Table Radio Show is broadcast on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
The Connected Table Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Radio. Hello and welcome to TheConnected Table Live. I'm your host,
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Melanie Young, and I host theshow with the fabulous David Ransom, my
other half. He's in New Yorkhosting an Umbrian wine lunch today, so
I'm buying solo. But Melanie Youngand David Ransom are the co hosts and
the insatiably curious culinary couple for TheConnected Table Live. We're celebrating our tenth
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year and you can find all ourshows on your favorite podcast channel. We
recommend Iheartspotify, Apple or visiting ourwebsite, the Connected Table dot com,
where you can read more about us, who we are and all the wonderful
places we go and write about.So I'm sorry, David, I could
hear because we're reading this book onthe author, I see a lot of
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his family in it. I'm gonnaset it up this way, the world
of wine, there's always two sidesof the glass, the glass half empty
and the glass half full. Andso is the world of wine. And
then there's people like me who say, just shut up and drink the glass
and don't ponder it too much.But the reality is there's a lot of
dirt and hard work and sweat thatgoes into that beautiful bottle of wine that
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you're paying handsomely for at a restaurant, like handsomely more than you can even
imagine at a restaurant these days,Or that fifteen dollars glass of wine if
you're lucky, sometimes there are twentydollars glasses at a restaurant. So much
goes into it. But in television, and wine is figuring heavily in television
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these days. I'm actually writing anarticle about it for an industry publication.
All you see are the glamorous shotsand the romantic photos of people somehow pruning,
lolling away tasting. There's always beautiful, symphonic music, and you think,
Wow, wouldn't it be cool toown a winery? Isn't that a
cool job? Or wouldn't it becool to work a harvest? You people
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always say, Wow, that justsounds so cool. Then I can go
sit and drink wine afterwards all aroundand yeah, I go on a lot
of press trips, we Dave andI do, and we're greeted by very
glamorous people who welcome us and feedus, and we drink copious amounts of
amazing wine, and we tour thevineyards and everything looks beautiful. But we
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happen to also know how hard thebusiness is. Because Davis's family owned a
winery in New York States. Ihave strong relationships as I've been a wine
consultant. I know the grit andthe grind behind it, and we report
on the business. And I'm goingto say that when you finished, we
finished with this show, you betterappreciate that glass of wine, theuture holding
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tonight a little bit more because myguest has written a book, a memoir
about his life running a winery.American got this an American running a winery
in Burgundy. Just that alone isfairly amazing knowing how complex Burgundy is is
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a wine region. He ran awinery, he he's written a book,
he's since sold the winery, stillhas a hand in the wine business.
But it's such a fascinating read.It's called Climbing the Vines and Burgundy How
an American came to own a legendaryvineyard in France, which we're going to
get into by Alex Cambell. Soit shares such an an in depth look
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at the challenges of and the insand outs of owning a winery making wine
that most people don't know and probablydon't really care about. But if you
do care, and I do,I do care deeply about the people who
make wine in the business, you'llbe fascinated by this book. And when
I posted about it on social mediaat the Connected Table, I saw a
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couple of my international wine producer friendsgoing thumbs up. So we're going to
dive deep into Climbing the Vines andBurgundy. Hang on, it's going to
be an interesting conversation with writer vintnerand now amand of Independent Spirit Alex Gamble.
Welcome Alex, thank you, Melanie. It's great to be here.
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So Alex is a common saying inthe wine business. If you want to
make a small fortune, start witha large one. I know that's as
common as it gets. Owning awinery is tough business to crack. But
you decided to do it in France. So take us back to what were
you doing in You know, yougrew up in Washington, d C.
Take us to your life growing upand what you were doing before you decided
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to check it all to go toFrance and open a winery. So yeah,
I grew up in the Northern Virginiad C area and was involved in
a family business in DC. Myfather, after the war, with its
partner, had started a parking companyand then got into real estate and after
a year, after a year teaching, after university and University North Carolina,
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I went and worked for the familybusiness, but started to hang out at
wine stores in d C, whichwas which was at the time and still
is probably the most open market inthe United States for wine. And I
got married young, had kids,young, didn't go to bars or disco
with my wife. We went homebasically to cook dinner and have friends over
with their little kids, and Iwould grab great bottles of wine or you
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know, actually at that point littleten fifteen dollars bottles of wine, and
just kind of slowly got into itand met people and became in thralled with
the people who made the wine,the areas. And I think, as
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I tell everyone, by pure dumbluck, I could remember what I could
taste, and what started as anavocation morphed into a vocation. And that
happens for a lot of people.Usually they're in a job that they're maybe
they're making money, maybe they're not, but it's not obviously parking make parking
in real estate can make a lotof money, but it's not everything you
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want to do for the rest ofyour life. And I think you were
seduced by wine. I was,and and I loved what I was doing
in the business, but it wasa two family business, and I was
very much like my father, veryindependent, very much an entrepreneur, and
I felt like I really wanted totry something on my own. And so
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my wife and I in the earlynineties, we were getting frustrated kind of
doing, if you will, thecorrect and quotes path family path, and
we got this wacky idea to takea sabbatical because my business partner had taken
a year off, and so wesaid, well, instead of you know,
going someplace in the States, he'dactually gotten a master's in real estate
at MIT. I go, well, you know, let's go to Europe
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for a year and have an experiencewith our family. And you know,
we had two little kids, andthat was kind of the beginning idea.
And then through my local wine store, I met Becky Wasserman, the legendary
exporter and discover of great burgundies,and she needed some help with her business,
and you know, she said,you know, do you want to
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be a stage there or an apprentice? And my wife was a graphic designer,
and we said, if you'd liketo have two old ones and can
wait a year? We said whynot, and she said sure, and
so we arrived then in May ninetythree with our eight and ten year old
in tow, threw them into localFrench schools. They became bilingual in about
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five or six months. And Ialways say that our secret weapon. You
know, everyone asked, you know, how are you accepted? Well,
first off, it was thirty yearsago and we were the only Americans in
town, and I was thirty six. All of us baby boomers were basically
as their baby boomers are here,their baby boomers in France, and they
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were taking over their famili's wineries.And they had kids our kids age,
and they all went to school together. And so between Christmas, Easter,
birthday parties, end of the yearof barbecues, marriages, funerals, we
were part of the community. Andthose adults, the parents of my children's
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friends, became our dear friends.And now you know, thirty some years
later, thirty years later, they'remaking the wine and their parents are kind
of taking the back seat as I'vedone. So it's a natural Russian and
it's been wonderful. Well, Igot to say, you know, it's
like all the vineyards in the worldand places you choose. You choose Burgundy,
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and then you know, some peoplemeet Jacques de Pouff, but you
meet Becky Wasserman. Yeah, andserendipity. Well, it was lucky,
it was meant to be for forI think for everyone involved. I could
not have been as successful as I'vebeen if it wasn't for Becky and her
organization and a Russell and her husbandRussell because of the introductions I had,
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and then just you know, tastingand working with some of the best you
know, wine makers in the world, and you know, I was spoiled.
And but remember I had a blankslate. I had no preconceptions of
making wine. I was primarily drinkingEuropean wines. So the other question I'm
always asked, you know, whatkind of did the French think you were
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going to make American style wines?I go, I didn't know how to
make American style wines. I learnedfrom the classicists, if you will,
and that was my model. Andthose are the wines I drank all the
time, and I drank now becausethat's what I like. I was a
feel weaned on that and ended up, you know, with through some hard
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work, own thirty acres at theend, and it allowed me to control
my destiny and have control the vineyardsof this great this place that makes the
greatest peanut and Warren chardonnay in theworld. Yes, and we've got two
sample sun to us and thank you. I mean, I have a love
affair with Burgundy. I actually notbeen to Burgundy until an importer took us
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on a tour de France in Janeearly January twenty twenty three and that's all
I can say. A Bone.You know you lived abo Bone. I
mean, I can't wait. There'sno place like Bone. I yes,
it is pretty fun. Oh mygod, I just want to go back.
So you're there. This seems sodreamy. You enrolling at a cultural
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school, you become a landowner.It's not easy. This is dreamy,
but it's not easy. You talkin depth about the challenges of navigating.
I mean it's partner navigating the whitebusiness in the United States, and now
you're navigating it in France. Howdoes France compare to the United States in
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terms of navigating setting up a andwine business. That's a really good question.
The mechanics are probably similar, okay, but in a place like Burgundy,
because the land holdings are so choppedup. You know, you have
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For example, just take my domainof thirty acres twelve hectars. I had
thirty five or forty separate parcels.I'm spread over a fifteen mile distance somewhere
next to one another. But mydomain was typical of almost everyone else.
There are very few domains. Butsay people always say, take me to
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your chateau, and I go,well, my chateau, there's no such
thing as a chateau. There area couple, but they've got yeah.
Yeah. Basically it was like,you want my chateau here, get get
in my car, get in myjeep, my fork, and I'll take
you to the vines and this parceland that parcel. And so it's this
interesting patchwork quilt of vineyards that weall own either outright or have long term
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leases on. And that's what Italk a lot about on the book,
is this, you know, howthese domains have were created, how they
morphed, you know, and andhow it changes through generations through inheritance laws.
But I'd say starting when I didback in you know, so I
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lived and I worked with Becky forthree years and then went to the Wine
School from ninety six to ninety seven. It's a one year general wine making
course and it includes not just thewine making, but the soil pruning,
the business side of it, whichwas easy for me. Basically, you
come out as a general manager ofa small family domain. As I joke
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and say, you know enough justto be dangerous on certain things, but
you know who to call, whoare the experts. And that's what it's
about, because since our if youa winery slash domain slash vineyards are not
that large. We end up doingeverything ourselves and or bringing an expert to
help us because there are no economiesof scale. That's the first thing which
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I think is which is a challenge. So in a place like California or
Oregon, or say south of France, even you can go out and buy
or find large parcels of already plantedvineyards, or in the United States plant
vineyards. In France, it's muchmore difficult, and especially in a place
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like Burgundy, where all the vinesare already classified, every thing is already
planted. You can't plan anything more. So there's this huge demand for the
existing supply, and that's where itbecomes very difficult, very very competitive.
Burgundy is so complex and there's alot at stake because land is tight and
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it's gen multity. I mean,I was impressed that you, as an
American, were able to score somevineyard land. I mean, you know,
Chris, this is a back then. I mean that I think the
industry has changed a lot over thethirty years, which we'll get into.
But you did it. But itwasn't easy. I mean you had to
you know, you really are thecook, the bottle washer, the there's
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a lot that goes into it.What were you and you went to school,
and you know what, what doyou feel reflecting? Were you wish
you had been more prepared for?And I say that because everybody goes when
they have a business. I wishI had right Yet the heart part,
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and I mentioned this is it.I don't want to say it's easy to
make wine, but if you getreally good grapes and you know what you're
doing, you will make You canmake anyone can make a pretty good bottle
of wine. And the difficult partis selling the darn stuff. And I
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talked and you know, and wetalked earlier. I talk a lot about
that, you know, and remember, every twelve months you have another baby
that's being born. And when you'rebuying these grapes and paying for them within
nine months, you're not getting thatthat money back in bottle for basically twenty
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at least twenty four months from theharvest. So there's a huge amount of
capital and cash flow and investment andjust cost and it's all up front,
so it takes a long time tomake a real profit and then throw in
the climactic issues. I talk aboutthe frost we've had over the last few
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years that you know, basically nearlywell basically did put me over the edge
to a certain degree. One ofthe main reasons I decided to cell.
I mean, it's a tough business. I mean, it looks so pristine,
so wonderful, and I mean,and it can be, but it's
tough. It's farming. I meanit's high end farming, but it's farming.
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And don't ever forget it, especiallywhen you look at the density of
our vines, the the you know, how we have to farm it,
all these kinds of things. Butin which I talk a little bit about
because I didn't want to make thisjust a textbook or a winebook. It's
a it's a you know, asI say, it's a little bit catching
confidential, a little moneyball with asplash of Julia Child. And I want
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people to get a sense of whatit really is and also why it's wonderful
to go visit there. I mean, I mean I love going back now
with a tourists. I don't haveto have those those those headaches, or
that or those those stresses anymore.And I don't miss that well, I
also got a little bit of downand out in Paris, a little or
Willian because of dining at the diningat the fancy restaurants and what it's like
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in the underbelly. And there's alot of underbelly. And it's a dangerous
business. You can be overcome by, you know, whatever gases. You
always hear about people falling into thetanks, you hear about terrible things.
I mean, you know, becauseof the carbon monoxide. You know,
but it's farming. But here's thething out it is farming. But let
me tell you apples are easy tosell them. Wine because you're dealing with
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particularly nice states. You know.You know, wine is still you know,
part of the Bureau of Alcohol Tobaccowith firearms, as you clearly discussed
because you did it, and youknow, the United States is like fifty
different little countries. Ye, andit's very complicated. And then I think,
you know, I understand all ofthis because I'm so embedded the business.
But I think a lot of peopledon't realize how hard it is to
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sell the wine. And as youtalk about it, and I can feel
the cringing when you go to theI mean, I had to laugh when
you talk about the characters of thebook, the know it alls and the
guy who did the throwaway. Imean you you have to pound the pavement
and do a lot of stuff thatI mean. Hell, you moved to
you knew to France to have alifestyle change. You moved into the wine
business to pursue a dream. Andnext thing, you know, and this
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happens to a lot of people ina lot of businesses, including the one
I had. Next thing, youknow, all you're doing is worrying about
receivables. That's it. That's whyI walked away from my business. Alex.
I feel your pain. As BillGlinton would say as I read as
I read Climbing the Vines. Eventhough my business was a wine marketing and
colony marketing, public relations and defensefrom some of the things you talk about.
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I lived in my own way,and one of the ones that killed
me was that you know, whenthe when the producer says, why is
it you asked me to make thewine and deliver the way? I'm the
last to get paid? Right?That just hit such a nerve about how
about you know? And you youtalk about and I still understand this,
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Like people want to cut deals,and you're like, do I walk into
your Michelin Star restaurant and go,I don't want to pay sixty dollars today.
I feel like pay fifty cut mea deal exactly. And it's it's
endemic in the business, and youknow, I think the I mean,
I just I took the train downfrom New York. I was doing a
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couple events up there, just arrivedhere in Washington, and you know,
you go in and you're right,you're paying as I wrote, twenty dollars
for a glass of wine, orseventy dollars for a basic bottle of white
burgundy that I would sell for teneuros, and people complained about what the
cost is. You know, Ialways say, if I sell a bottle
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for ten or eleven euros, it'sthirty to thirty five dollars on a retail
shelf, and it'll be seventy dollarsfifty to seventy dollars in a restaurant.
You know, I think that's thereality of the business. And it's still
and writing it down, quite frankly, was cathartic. I'm sure it was.
It's just it's it's the nature ofthe beast we have, especially here
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in the United States. That's whywhen we when you know, we Americans
go to France and you can goto Paris and Greg get great bottles of
wine, you know, at toprestaurants for a half of them in supermarkets.
Yeah, or supermarkets. I meanthe supermarkets are I mean, you
can find great wine in the supermarkets. So I think this is I mean,
this is the this is the name. And I talk a little bit
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about that. I mean it's andI think it I just made. I
wanted to make some points, notto glaze people's eyes over with that silly
business piece of it, but itwas a very I think they need to
be cognizant that, you know,we're It takes a lot of money and
a lot of effort and to getthe wine making machine up and rolling,
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and when all of a sudden peoplearen't paying their bills. It's very well.
As I say, what it does, it adds. It adds to
the end cost because there are someimporters and distributors who pay late, and
we would build in automatically a tenpercent higher price for them because we knew
no matter what they they what wedid, they would always pay late,
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so they're going to pay there.They're basically I built in the interest costs
of the carry and that's that too. I had to do that too.
I and everybody thinks that they're beingbeing sharp and all that, it's just
costing everybody money. In the end, it's it's a waste. It's a
waste of money. But they're goingto change. Yeah. Yeah, it's
not going to change. Change.That's just the system. I mean,
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it's it's crazy you you explain itso poignantly. But I want to underscore
you were very successful and you didthis for twenty years, twenty five years.
Yeah. Yeah, So in twentyfive years you built which is pretty
remarkable. You went to a party. First of all, you uprooted your
family, You went to France andand everybody did well. Your marriage didn't
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rive, but we'll get into that. But you know, but you found
love in another way and another person. But you you paid your dues.
You did something a lot of peopledream of. But you also very clear,
don't get all dreamy gooey about gooeyeyed about it. I mean I
had to smile also. I meanwe're doing this interview in October and we've
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got a couple more weeks of harvest. Some places laid harvest later. But
you talk about how how crazy itis. You know, you're trying to
you know, the timing is everythingduring harvest. Timing is everything. And
and then you've got like bus loadsof tourists coming because I think it's cool
to go see go go visit wineriesduring harvest. I have a friend in
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Tuscany right now, which is likeyou, I have a couple of who
should we go visit? And I'mlike, nobody, nobody wants to see
you right now. I know.It's uh, you know, and it's
and it's really hard because most ofthese people want to come see you.
They're usually pretty good customers anyway,but it's just but but the importers know
not to come. It's it's theterist because this is the time. It's
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beautiful time of year in Europe rightnow, just like it is in the
East Coast. So yeah, weyou know, we go during the shoulder
season, right in the middle ofall the heavy lifting and work. And
you know, we I learned andas I say, as I write in
the book to I learned to manageit pretty well. And and and people
would come and then I say,okay, well here you want if you
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want lunch, you want to hanghere, do something useful. Clean these
boxes, clean these great boxes.And people get all excited. I give
them. I give them rubber bootsand they would spray the boxes down and
it seems trivial, but it's important. Oh they got an Instagram shot out
of it. Just don't ask themto do it for thirty days straight.
Well, trust me, I didthat my first year, my first stash
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in mind school. I was justyou know, fucking is that right?
I was mucking the stems. Itold David. I mean, we know,
you know, we prepercord a lotof shows in July before everybody disappears
on August, and then they disappearagain in September and October. And it's
like, okay, let's just focuson authors during this time of the year,
and we're glad you were available.So, you know, I remember
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saying once to David, you know, if all else spells, this is
after I close my company and wedon't have any money, let's just go
well, go work a harvest andjust get some you know, just help
a winery. And he looked atme like I had like five heads,
Like no, I did this fora long time. Please no, I
don't consider that like interesting or funanymore. It is it is unique for
(24:41):
like the tourists to get their snap. But it's hard work and you've got
to and you talk about you've gotto be part of a team. I
mean, harvest is a serious business. Timing is everything, and you know,
as you said, it's farming.Nature can change everything. One frost,
one bad rain, one big drought. You talk it throughout the book
towards the end about some of thetrends that you're seeing, you know,
(25:03):
reflecting back. I mean, youhad success for twenty five years. You
sold domain Alex Gamble to the BossFamily. Congratulations, thank you. I
mean, you know, gosh great, we've had them on the show.
You have a small interest, itlooks like in a winy called Gamble work
in the Santa Rino Hills. Correct, yes, tell us about that.
I only had your somebody. Iwas lucky to get a Volney and one
(25:27):
of your Chordinay's, but tell usabout the Gamble work. So basically one
of my business partners in the Vinesis from there, and we were discussing
we were having problems with the distributionin California, and he said, well,
let's meet with one of my formerclients. He was a money manager
and he has a winery now andhe's all bio bio dynamic like we were
(25:51):
with his vines, and went outthere and we really hit it off.
As Peter work. He's a Daneand he has this wonderful ranch out there
in the Santa Rita Hill and wejust got instead of doing any kind of
marketing, we all of a suddensaid let's se if we can make some
wine. And I think it wasat the point where I had a really
good team in place. They reallydidn't need me their day to day,
(26:12):
and so we thought it would bequote unquote fun. And so we have
a fourth partner who basically had hiscompany planted and managed is virtually all the
vines out there in Santa Barbara Countyand San Dinez County. He's planning like
four thousand acres over the last fortyyears. So we had access to really
really good grapes, and so Iliterally shipped over barrels, my barrels from
(26:37):
France because I didn't want the barrelsthat are sold to the wineries in California,
and we put in my template ofhow I make my Chardonnays and pino
noirs, and we made the firstyear a couple hundred cases, maybe three
hundred cases. In twenty eighteen upto seven hundred cases. But in eighteen
(27:00):
Heater got ill with pancreat titus rightat harvest. He was unable to help.
I got some help from the neighborwho helped me do the heavy lifting.
I made the wine, but asI write in the book, my
wife had been diagnosed with stage fourcolon cancer that had gone to her liver.
This was in March twenty eighteen.So in the middle of harvest in
(27:22):
California, I fly back to JacksonHole, where we had a summer place,
and we had her thirtieth or sochemo. I can't even remember at
this point. I think she hadforty five, he wrote, I think
fifty five at the d d infive. Yeah, yeah, I can't.
I mean, it's you know,one, maybe I don't remember now,
(27:44):
Melanie. But then flew back tofinish the wine in California, then
had to fly back to France aswe're finishing up harvest in Burgundy and I
go time out, stop no more. I just can't do this just too
much. And it was a greatexperiment. And we have about one hundred
cases left, but have the sameissues. You know, how do we
(28:08):
sell you know these you know,the the this wine, because you've got
to create a new brand. You'vegot to go out on the road selling
this wine. It doesn't sell itself. And you know, none of us.
I mean, you know, I'msixty six now, I mean,
and I go and I feel youngand great, but I did not.
(28:30):
I don't feel like going out poundingthe pavements. So oh with your schlep
bag, schleppin. I don't wantto slept sle I mean, you know
it's bad enough to the schlept booksnow. I can't believe I'm doing that.
Oh I've slept books too. Ijust I remember just sitting in restaurants,
you know, uh, and andbeing there waiting for my meeting that
I had, you know, doinga restaurant promotion last year in New York,
(28:52):
and the reps walk in. There'sbecause it's like the witching hour for
the reps. They come into veryspecific time, right, absolutely, Yeah,
I watched him wait and wait andwait, and I felt so lucky
because I had an appointment and youknow, they're trained terribly. Yeah,
it's oh and I write about that. It's yeah, I know it's rrible
and I and I do not missthat piece of the business in the least,
(29:15):
so so, you know, butthe California piece was, you know,
this, this idea was basically itwas really simple, could we create
a a California Shardi and pinan noir? And I really I love those from
uh the Santa Rita Hills. Ido too. I think they're terrific.
(29:37):
The fruit is very reminiscent of Burgundy. You don't get the candy cherry stuff
you get up in Sonoma. Andand I love Oregon, but it's different
again, and I already had therewere a lot of Burgundy in front.
I had Burgundy, and friends alreadygo into Oregon. So I thought,
you know, let's get let's givethis a shot. And you know,
we basically made two wines that oneof my partners say, it's not Burgundian,
(30:00):
but it's gamble Okay, it's gamblestyle, and I took that,
so I took that as a compliment. So they were very similar and I
remember there was I did a tastingonce and someone asked, you know,
why can't Californians make wine in theBurgundy style? And I go, well,
(30:21):
I think they can. In fact, we're doing it. But the
issue is is there a market forit? Yeah, maybe there's a market
for a thousand cases, but notten thousand, not one hundred thousand.
And that's the reality. Americans lovethese big, juicy, fruity wines that
have high alcohol, some residual sugar, and I mean, that's the market
(30:44):
and you can make a lot ofmoney making those kind of wines. My
attitude was, I don't drink thosewines, so I'm not going to make
those wines, you know. Andthat's you know, and that's my story
and I'm sticking with it. Asthey say, well in particularly the peano
nois and to have more forest floor, being more usteer. I mean,
we tasted in the vulnet that wewere sent and it's so dramatically unique.
(31:07):
Once you taste that style, ifyou are used to the bigger, fruity
or textured wines, it is asurprise. It's hard. It's hard,
it could be very hard, andwe had not had one for a while
and we both went and I said, I got it, you know,
because I was expecting it. ButDavid was like wow, and I said,
yeah, it's very Burgundian. You'renot going to get that. And
(31:29):
I happen to love it. Forthat reason. I'm a big fan of
Santa Rita Hills wines and I hopeI can get my hands on a couple
of bottles of what you're doing there, because you know, it's all over
the place. I love California,but you know, some of the wines
are all over the place, anda lot of it's because of where it's
made and how it's made, andit's just totally different TOOI no, it's
(31:52):
it is. It's apples and orangesthough. In Santa Rita because of the
cool weather summer till about the thirdweek in August when the you know,
the Pacific Ocean warms up finally,and you don't you're not getting the cooling
fog. You know, that's whatkeeps those wines fresh. But often people
(32:15):
will let those things hang and getto that fourteen and a half sixteen percent
alcohol, which when I first starteddrinking, you know, that was pork.
You'd have one glass of pork sixteensixteen and a half percent, excuse
me, and and my stuff twelveand a half thirteen percent. You know,
as long as I'm eating some food, I mean, I can drink
(32:36):
that stuff all night. As friendssay, it's very digest it's digestible,
it works, it's not gonna it'snot going to make you feel full and
have a necessarily a headache. Obviouslyyou drink a lot too much. That's
a different issue, but it's exactlythe wines are different, well, you
seem to. I just love theway the French conduct business. You start
(32:58):
with the apparero. After I wasreading this, I was like, David,
let's come in apao. I needa pao. I was like that,
it's like I gotta change. Ilove the European way of life deeply.
And you did something that I wantto do, which just move to
Europe, which we are going todo. I'm telling you, I don't
know how we're gonna make a living, because you know, I don't know,
(33:19):
but we are going to do it, and I'm gonna write a book.
So I admire you for all that. I saw so many similarities in
your life in mind, and we'renot too for a part in age.
I just did it in going toNew York to pursue a dream and succeeded.
And the one day I just lookedat David and I said, I'm
done there. I was diagnosed withcancer. So when you write about Diana's
your second wife and she gets,you know, an advanced stage of cancer,
(33:45):
I could feel that pain because Icould see David doing it while I
was going through my own chemo therapy, which was only thankfully twelve round,
so I can't imagine what fifty fivewould be like. He was trying to
keep my business going. We didn'ttell people that not cancer, because you
know, everybody just go ooh gross, I'm going to go get into the
(34:06):
agency, right, no loyalty andI hit it for two years, but
he had to straddle the world oftaking care of his wife in cancer and
running and keeping the business going andkeeping the business applications and flying around and
doing this and that and up front. So I felt that when you were
going through it. I felt itdeeply, and I'm sorry you lost her.
(34:30):
I know that you have a foundationin her memory of freestyle skiing.
Foundation because you're also a scape bomb. So that's a good thing, that
you're taking something positive out of theexperience. But I can understand why you
said I'm done. Yeah, Andit was as I right, it was
a lot of things. I didn'thave kids interested in the business, right,
(34:52):
I felt, you know, betweenDiana's illness and then and in also
in twenty sixteen, you know,fifty percent the crop the frost, but
eighty five percent of my best vineyards. And it was and it was clear
to me the business was changing withthe amount of big, big billionaire money
(35:13):
coming in, not million a billionairemoney buying land, creating I think a
false economy. But you know,you got I don't. I'm not going
to fight it. It's the wayit was. And then and then finally,
you know, climatic change, weatherchange, with with the with the
more and more the earlier and earlierharvests because we're not having the cold winters
(35:37):
we used to have, and therefore, but not having the cold winters,
we have early spring bud break andwe are then much more susceptible to you
know, killing frost. It's happeningeverywhere right now, and it's happening everywhere,
and so it it it required meto take a step back and go,
you know, I'm sixty sixty oneat this time. It was it
(35:58):
was it was Christmas twenty seventeen,January twenty eighteen. I was just turned
sixty back in June, and Igo, you know, do I want
to double down for another twenty yearsbecause you know it's going to take another
generation to figure out, you know, how what what are we gonna do?
How are we going to manage thevines? I mean what kind of
(36:19):
how are we going to change thecanopy? There were more and more viruses
and that are that are affecting thevine so that you you when you replant,
the vine is dead in ten orfifteen years. So you got all
these kind of you know, big, if you will, existential challenges that
I go, you know, ifI was thirty thirty five, i'd say,
I'd say I'm in, you know, and I'll figure it out.
(36:42):
But not at sixty I wasn't readyfor that. I had other projects,
other things that interested me or Ithought would interest interest interest me more at
this point, so I felt likewhy not walk away? And instinctively I
felt the market was very hot.I thought I could so, and I
had vines, which is what peoplewanted, and you had vines in a
(37:04):
very hard place to acquire vines.Yes, and I had very good vines
I had. I had, youknow, high end Appalachian wines. And
you know, it appealed to theBoisse family because they have several different operations
and the vines fit seamlessly into theirto their business. And I'd already worked
with them before for many years,buying and selling and trading grapes during harvest.
(37:30):
So it was in one level,it was a it was a very
pleasant It was you know, toughnegotiations, but it was a wonderful group
to work with because it's old school. You make a deal, you shake
hands, and then you work itout and and that's and I can't say
enough good things about that part ofthe transaction. And I'm a funny bird.
(37:50):
I felt like I got out closeto the top and walked away and
I haven't looked back. I havemy new projects out in the West.
I still have my house in France. I'm going back there in mid October
for five or six weeks. Andyou know, just I'm on a new
stage in life. I'm very happywith it. Well, I think you
got another first of all, youdidn't walk away. I walked away,
(38:14):
but I didn't sell. You walkedaway and you sold. I have a
lot of friends who are doing thisright now for all the same reasons you
say. It was harder for meto sell, because you know, it's
a service business. Don't ever gointo a service business. You had vineyards,
and they were valuable vineyards, andso you've made a good doll and
you made it at the right time, because then look what happened. The
(38:34):
whole world fell apart. It wasCOVID exactly. And that fall Trump put
in the twenty five percent tariff,Yeah, terrible, which stopped all sales.
And then obviously in February March wasCOVID and you know it was.
It was. I write in thereone of my good friend's business partners,
(38:57):
his wife, and Diana said,you know, we don't know if you
two guys are smarter, just damnlucky, and we go, we're damn
lucky because we look damn lucky.We're not that smart. Trust me,
we're two plotters. I think that'shalf the half the battle. You know,
serendipity led you to Becky, Imean, Becky Wasserman. It's she
(39:19):
I wish we had had the chanceto interview her for this show. We
didn't know her. But you howfortunate to have all the people you know,
to have as your mentor that's agood one. And then and then
to be able to walk away andsell to a very prominent family that appreciated
what you did. And the timingwas perfect because it just seems like everything
is getting harder for the I mean, you know, between powdery mildew and
(39:43):
downy mildew and hail, and youknow, it just sounds downright biblically disastrous
in the white business. You know, you hear about you know, Loo
Kocketty and Georgia the vineyards are wipedout, and then you read about you
know, grease and the wipings outand the frost that hit here and the
hail that hits here. It's reallyincredible. What's happening. It's it is
(40:04):
and I just, you know,look back and I go, you know,
I don't know. I I feelfortunate that I got out, and
I think it's the business. Anda place like Burgundy, you're either going
to have to be very very smalland do everything yourself, or be very
large people in the middle or asI write, who don't have the high
(40:30):
end appellations that they can sell fora lot of money per bottle are going
to have a hard time. Thoughthe prices have come up a lot,
I think, shockingly so, butit's still I mean, I think this
is in one of the chapters Italk about, you know, the cost
of production. Remember, it costsvirtually the same whether you sell the bottle
(40:51):
for two hundred years to produce thegrapes. Let's not talk about any kind
of you know, return on capitaland all that kind of stuff, but
the basic production of the grapes isvirtually the same whether you sell the bottle
for ten dollars or ten euros ortwo hundred euros. I mean there's a
slight change, but not twenty times. And that's and I think that the
(41:13):
end of the day, I justlooked at that that math and go,
I'm just not willing to work thathard anymore at it to make to just
to make it get by, becausethere were so many other outside influences that
were just you know, putting everythingat risk. I mean I talk about
(41:37):
that frost and twenty sixteen, Wellwhat it meant was that, you know,
I lost three to four hundred thousandeuros worth of grapes in about forty
five minutes on April morning, andthat would translate into you know, close
to eight hundred thousand euros worth ofwine and bottle close to a million dollars.
(41:59):
And that meant that a million dollarsless cash that I would have flowing
through the business twenty four to thirtysix months later. That makes it,
that makes for a tough business.Well, as you say, black morning
in April, you were talking toAla McCoy, who was myne writer from
Bloomberg, and she asked, whatwas happening Burgerny And you said, imagine
if you told Mike Bloomberg, thebillionaire, that in three of the next
(42:22):
six years you would have no incomeand have the same cost because of weather
like this, what would his reactionbe? And you know what, that's
the reality is, you still haveto run the business. I've interviewed so
many Vintnor's alex who've been, imean, in similar positions, and yet
they persist and they stay in thegame. I interviewed one woman who she
(42:43):
lost everything in a warehouse fire inCalifornia. Yeah, a lot of them
have other money behind them. That'sall I'm going to say. Well,
you know it's there. You Ihad a lot of bankloads. I gathered
that reading and it made me itchwell. And also I had been,
(43:05):
I had been, I had reinvestedeverything. So yeah, over those over
those third twenty five years, Inever took a salary. I I think
I took minimum wage in order toget the healthcare benefits, but otherwise I
just basically had, you know,in the accounty, my current account,
my my my owner's account, andI'd put money in and take money out,
(43:30):
and you know, it was verytax efficient, but it was the
only way to make the business workbecause you know, I was I was
the bank. It was, youknow, and I had outside investors and
you know, in some loans andthings like that, but fundamentally it was
you know a small amount of capitalthat kind of as I made money,
(43:51):
it went right back in, itdidn't go out. I was not paying
myself any dividends. And you know, in the book, I do know
if there's a photo there or notof of you know, the little apartment
I lived in for seven years.Yeah, and you're focusing on a toilet
or something. Yeah, remember thephoto I just I love the line,
you know, bank loans going onmy path. But you know, bank
(44:13):
loans, you know, they giveyou the umbrella and then when it starts
to rain, they want the umbrellaback. I've been there. So here's
my question, Alice, would youdo it all over again? Oh yeah,
oh yeah, there you go.I would do it differently, but
again, a large I mentioned thisin the book. I mean a large
(44:35):
part of it was, you know, we moved back with my first wife
and children to the United States afterfour years so they could relearn English and
go to US high schools. Thatwas something we felt that was important,
and so I literally commuted back andforth to France eight or ten times a
year, especially in the beginning whenwell it wasn't that hard. In the
(44:55):
beginning, there wasn't much going on. But if I had been there,
if we'd stayed there as a family, the cost would have been a lot
lower. I could have probably gottenvine sooner. It would have been a
whole different financial setup, in anoperational setup, and that would have made
(45:20):
a difference. But the reality wasmy wife and I had made a commitment
to get back. She wanted towork, and so I may do with
it by going back and forth untilreally four five, when the kids were
finally in college. And at thatpoint I had been separated and was in
the middle of divorce, so alot was going on. Yeah, that's
(45:44):
a lot, A lot was goingon. Yeah. So do you still
stay in touch with all the peoplethat you worked with in France? Oh?
Absolutely, I mean I do missthem a lot. I mean they
were my family, my friends.I'm looking forward to getting back. I
mean, this year it's been I'vebeen so busy with getting the book out
and and then I have a charityjob. I'm creating a daycare center out
(46:12):
in the Titons where I live,and so I've had a lot, a
lot of projects going on. ButI'm heading back on a couple of weeks
on the eighteenth of October. Sofabulous. So I'm looking for that and
we'll be there during the hospice andthe vultavan and see my friends and taste
and I usually taste at four orfive really good people who either worked for
(46:36):
me or with me, sold megrapes, who were who were who were?
You know, like family, Andas I say, I go back
now and I can, and nowI'm a civilian. I can go back
to civil and it's quite pleasant.Let me tell you, it's great not
to have those those as we sayin France, those soussi's, those worries,
(46:57):
those those stresses. Yeah, Ican't wait to get back, you
know. When we go to wineregions now we go with importers, are
on hosted press trips and the rightrapport. And I'm waiting for one for
back to Burgundy. But it's sothere's so much, it's so complex there,
and it's such an interesting you know, it's it's a long area and
(47:17):
it's so different from top to bottom, and it's there's so much there to
dive into. We've interviewed a fewproducers, not enough from Burgundy, but
really incredible place. I think peopledon't realize how cold it is, uh
and that's you know, you getthis, you know, that's the deep
(47:39):
dark secret of central of if youwill, Continental Europe is that damp,
cold, right, And that's franklyone of the reasons I wanted to get
out because after November one, Novemberseventh, that damp, cold and gray
and rolls in and it's like thatuntil April something like that, and where
(48:07):
I lived I lived up in thehills, the high hills, so I
was able to Actually I got alot of sun where I lived. The
cloud layer would be just below me. But then I would drive through the
clouds and be working and the sunwould finally burn off the clouds eleven twelve
o'clock and then by four o'clock it'sdark because we're so far north. So
(48:30):
it was pretty I don't miss that, let me put it that way.
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize that. I experienced it. When
we went to Champagne and then toBurgundy and then over to Alls House,
and then we headed south and wehit the Rhone and as soon as we
hit the southern roam, like thelight opened up. It's like, wow,
(48:51):
we'll there be light. It waslike a whole different France. Oh,
it's like a whole different world.It's I mean, it's night.
And we would we would just sometimesdrive down on a Friday night, have
dinner and then wake up and justdrive around the whole day just to be
out in the sun in the middleof January and February, because it does
(49:14):
get it gets pretty grim. Yeah, I felt that there it still beauty,
but the wines. The wines arebeautiful. Well, we're at the
end of the show. I've reallyenjoyed talking to Alex. I just want
to get makes week and so you'reselling again, because I know what it's
like to sell books and make countythe payment for small margins. I joke
(49:36):
and say, the only thing worsethan the wine business, I think is
the book publishing business. Trying tosell books. I think the margins are
slimmer, and you gotta sell alot of wine to make a lot of
money. And uh, you gotto sell a lot of bad wine to
make a lot of good wine.David always says, you gotta sell a
lot of bad wine to be ableto afford good wine exactly. And you
(49:58):
got to hustle to make any kindof sale in books. But I love
the book. It's I think everybodywho works in the white business should definitely
read it. It'll resonate. Butalso I think for people who just appreciate
wine, you do develop a significantappreciation for what's involved, and maybe look
at Vintnor's with more appreciation versus justyou know, tuling up the middle of
(50:22):
harvest and becoming a demanding tourist.It really opens your eyes and as I
believe and I think you believe,you know, like you can see life
with the glass half empty or halffull. But let's just drink the glass.
Damn it, right up, drinkthe glass. Damn it. Alex
Gamble climbing the vines and Brigundy.How an American came to own a legendary
(50:45):
vineyard in Francis out Now. I'vereally enjoyed talking to you, and I
hope we meet in person and clinkglasses over a great meal and a great
bottle. Thank you, Millip.I hope we can do that very ver
soon. Thanks. I hope.So you've been listening to the Connected Table
lot with Melanie Young and in spiritDavid Ransom. We are your insatiably curious
(51:05):
Coney couple, and we encourage youto step out of your comfort zone and
explore your paletate and expand your horizonsand what you see, taste, due
and how you live and always stayinsatiably curious. Thank you,
The topics and opinions expressed in thefollowing show are solely those of the hosts
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comments should be directed to those showhosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY
(00:21):
Radio. Hello and welcome to TheConnected Table Live. I'm your host,
(00:45):
Melanie Young, and I host theshow with the fabulous David Ransom, my
other half. He's in New Yorkhosting an Umbrian wine lunch today, so
I'm buying solo. But Melanie Youngand David Ransom are the co hosts and
the insatiably curious culinary couple for TheConnected Table Live. We're celebrating our tenth
(01:06):
year and you can find all ourshows on your favorite podcast channel. We
recommend Iheartspotify, Apple or visiting ourwebsite, the Connected Table dot com,
where you can read more about us, who we are and all the wonderful
places we go and write about.So I'm sorry, David, I could
hear because we're reading this book onthe author, I see a lot of
(01:26):
his family in it. I'm gonnaset it up this way, the world
of wine, there's always two sidesof the glass, the glass half empty
and the glass half full. Andso is the world of wine. And
then there's people like me who say, just shut up and drink the glass
and don't ponder it too much.But the reality is there's a lot of
dirt and hard work and sweat thatgoes into that beautiful bottle of wine that
(01:53):
you're paying handsomely for at a restaurant, like handsomely more than you can even
imagine at a restaurant these days,Or that fifteen dollars glass of wine if
you're lucky, sometimes there are twentydollars glasses at a restaurant. So much
goes into it. But in television, and wine is figuring heavily in television
(02:13):
these days. I'm actually writing anarticle about it for an industry publication.
All you see are the glamorous shotsand the romantic photos of people somehow pruning,
lolling away tasting. There's always beautiful, symphonic music, and you think,
Wow, wouldn't it be cool toown a winery? Isn't that a
cool job? Or wouldn't it becool to work a harvest? You people
(02:35):
always say, Wow, that justsounds so cool. Then I can go
sit and drink wine afterwards all aroundand yeah, I go on a lot
of press trips, we Dave andI do, and we're greeted by very
glamorous people who welcome us and feedus, and we drink copious amounts of
amazing wine, and we tour thevineyards and everything looks beautiful. But we
(02:55):
happen to also know how hard thebusiness is. Because Davis's family owned a
winery in New York States. Ihave strong relationships as I've been a wine
consultant. I know the grit andthe grind behind it, and we report
on the business. And I'm goingto say that when you finished, we
finished with this show, you betterappreciate that glass of wine, theuture holding
(03:16):
tonight a little bit more because myguest has written a book, a memoir
about his life running a winery.American got this an American running a winery
in Burgundy. Just that alone isfairly amazing knowing how complex Burgundy is is
(03:36):
a wine region. He ran awinery, he he's written a book,
he's since sold the winery, stillhas a hand in the wine business.
But it's such a fascinating read.It's called Climbing the Vines and Burgundy How
an American came to own a legendaryvineyard in France, which we're going to
get into by Alex Cambell. Soit shares such an an in depth look
(04:00):
at the challenges of and the insand outs of owning a winery making wine
that most people don't know and probablydon't really care about. But if you
do care, and I do,I do care deeply about the people who
make wine in the business, you'llbe fascinated by this book. And when
I posted about it on social mediaat the Connected Table, I saw a
(04:20):
couple of my international wine producer friendsgoing thumbs up. So we're going to
dive deep into Climbing the Vines andBurgundy. Hang on, it's going to
be an interesting conversation with writer vintnerand now amand of Independent Spirit Alex Gamble.
Welcome Alex, thank you, Melanie. It's great to be here.
(04:43):
So Alex is a common saying inthe wine business. If you want to
make a small fortune, start witha large one. I know that's as
common as it gets. Owning awinery is tough business to crack. But
you decided to do it in France. So take us back to what were
you doing in You know, yougrew up in Washington, d C.
Take us to your life growing upand what you were doing before you decided
(05:08):
to check it all to go toFrance and open a winery. So yeah,
I grew up in the Northern Virginiad C area and was involved in
a family business in DC. Myfather, after the war, with its
partner, had started a parking companyand then got into real estate and after
a year, after a year teaching, after university and University North Carolina,
(05:28):
I went and worked for the familybusiness, but started to hang out at
wine stores in d C, whichwas which was at the time and still
is probably the most open market inthe United States for wine. And I
got married young, had kids,young, didn't go to bars or disco
with my wife. We went homebasically to cook dinner and have friends over
with their little kids, and Iwould grab great bottles of wine or you
(05:54):
know, actually at that point littleten fifteen dollars bottles of wine, and
just kind of slowly got into itand met people and became in thralled with
the people who made the wine,the areas. And I think, as
(06:15):
I tell everyone, by pure dumbluck, I could remember what I could
taste, and what started as anavocation morphed into a vocation. And that
happens for a lot of people.Usually they're in a job that they're maybe
they're making money, maybe they're not, but it's not obviously parking make parking
in real estate can make a lotof money, but it's not everything you
(06:39):
want to do for the rest ofyour life. And I think you were
seduced by wine. I was,and and I loved what I was doing
in the business, but it wasa two family business, and I was
very much like my father, veryindependent, very much an entrepreneur, and
I felt like I really wanted totry something on my own. And so
(07:00):
my wife and I in the earlynineties, we were getting frustrated kind of
doing, if you will, thecorrect and quotes path family path, and
we got this wacky idea to takea sabbatical because my business partner had taken
a year off, and so wesaid, well, instead of you know,
going someplace in the States, he'dactually gotten a master's in real estate
at MIT. I go, well, you know, let's go to Europe
(07:21):
for a year and have an experiencewith our family. And you know,
we had two little kids, andthat was kind of the beginning idea.
And then through my local wine store, I met Becky Wasserman, the legendary
exporter and discover of great burgundies,and she needed some help with her business,
and you know, she said,you know, do you want to
(07:43):
be a stage there or an apprentice? And my wife was a graphic designer,
and we said, if you'd liketo have two old ones and can
wait a year? We said whynot, and she said sure, and
so we arrived then in May ninetythree with our eight and ten year old
in tow, threw them into localFrench schools. They became bilingual in about
(08:03):
five or six months. And Ialways say that our secret weapon. You
know, everyone asked, you know, how are you accepted? Well,
first off, it was thirty yearsago and we were the only Americans in
town, and I was thirty six. All of us baby boomers were basically
as their baby boomers are here,their baby boomers in France, and they
(08:26):
were taking over their famili's wineries.And they had kids our kids age,
and they all went to school together. And so between Christmas, Easter,
birthday parties, end of the yearof barbecues, marriages, funerals, we
were part of the community. Andthose adults, the parents of my children's
(08:46):
friends, became our dear friends.And now you know, thirty some years
later, thirty years later, they'remaking the wine and their parents are kind
of taking the back seat as I'vedone. So it's a natural Russian and
it's been wonderful. Well, Igot to say, you know, it's
like all the vineyards in the worldand places you choose. You choose Burgundy,
(09:07):
and then you know, some peoplemeet Jacques de Pouff, but you
meet Becky Wasserman. Yeah, andserendipity. Well, it was lucky,
it was meant to be for forI think for everyone involved. I could
not have been as successful as I'vebeen if it wasn't for Becky and her
organization and a Russell and her husbandRussell because of the introductions I had,
(09:30):
and then just you know, tastingand working with some of the best you
know, wine makers in the world, and you know, I was spoiled.
And but remember I had a blankslate. I had no preconceptions of
making wine. I was primarily drinkingEuropean wines. So the other question I'm
always asked, you know, whatkind of did the French think you were
(09:52):
going to make American style wines?I go, I didn't know how to
make American style wines. I learnedfrom the classicists, if you will,
and that was my model. Andthose are the wines I drank all the
time, and I drank now becausethat's what I like. I was a
feel weaned on that and ended up, you know, with through some hard
(10:13):
work, own thirty acres at theend, and it allowed me to control
my destiny and have control the vineyardsof this great this place that makes the
greatest peanut and Warren chardonnay in theworld. Yes, and we've got two
sample sun to us and thank you. I mean, I have a love
affair with Burgundy. I actually notbeen to Burgundy until an importer took us
(10:33):
on a tour de France in Janeearly January twenty twenty three and that's all
I can say. A Bone.You know you lived abo Bone. I
mean, I can't wait. There'sno place like Bone. I yes,
it is pretty fun. Oh mygod, I just want to go back.
So you're there. This seems sodreamy. You enrolling at a cultural
(10:54):
school, you become a landowner.It's not easy. This is dreamy,
but it's not easy. You talkin depth about the challenges of navigating.
I mean it's partner navigating the whitebusiness in the United States, and now
you're navigating it in France. Howdoes France compare to the United States in
(11:15):
terms of navigating setting up a andwine business. That's a really good question.
The mechanics are probably similar, okay, but in a place like Burgundy,
because the land holdings are so choppedup. You know, you have
(11:39):
For example, just take my domainof thirty acres twelve hectars. I had
thirty five or forty separate parcels.I'm spread over a fifteen mile distance somewhere
next to one another. But mydomain was typical of almost everyone else.
There are very few domains. Butsay people always say, take me to
(12:01):
your chateau, and I go,well, my chateau, there's no such
thing as a chateau. There area couple, but they've got yeah.
Yeah. Basically it was like,you want my chateau here, get get
in my car, get in myjeep, my fork, and I'll take
you to the vines and this parceland that parcel. And so it's this
interesting patchwork quilt of vineyards that weall own either outright or have long term
(12:26):
leases on. And that's what Italk a lot about on the book,
is this, you know, howthese domains have were created, how they
morphed, you know, and andhow it changes through generations through inheritance laws.
But I'd say starting when I didback in you know, so I
(12:46):
lived and I worked with Becky forthree years and then went to the Wine
School from ninety six to ninety seven. It's a one year general wine making
course and it includes not just thewine making, but the soil pruning,
the business side of it, whichwas easy for me. Basically, you
come out as a general manager ofa small family domain. As I joke
(13:09):
and say, you know enough justto be dangerous on certain things, but
you know who to call, whoare the experts. And that's what it's
about, because since our if youa winery slash domain slash vineyards are not
that large. We end up doingeverything ourselves and or bringing an expert to
help us because there are no economiesof scale. That's the first thing which
(13:33):
I think is which is a challenge. So in a place like California or
Oregon, or say south of France, even you can go out and buy
or find large parcels of already plantedvineyards, or in the United States plant
vineyards. In France, it's muchmore difficult, and especially in a place
(13:54):
like Burgundy, where all the vinesare already classified, every thing is already
planted. You can't plan anything more. So there's this huge demand for the
existing supply, and that's where itbecomes very difficult, very very competitive.
Burgundy is so complex and there's alot at stake because land is tight and
(14:18):
it's gen multity. I mean,I was impressed that you, as an
American, were able to score somevineyard land. I mean, you know,
Chris, this is a back then. I mean that I think the
industry has changed a lot over thethirty years, which we'll get into.
But you did it. But itwasn't easy. I mean you had to
you know, you really are thecook, the bottle washer, the there's
(14:39):
a lot that goes into it.What were you and you went to school,
and you know what, what doyou feel reflecting? Were you wish
you had been more prepared for?And I say that because everybody goes when
they have a business. I wishI had right Yet the heart part,
(15:00):
and I mentioned this is it.I don't want to say it's easy to
make wine, but if you getreally good grapes and you know what you're
doing, you will make You canmake anyone can make a pretty good bottle
of wine. And the difficult partis selling the darn stuff. And I
(15:22):
talked and you know, and wetalked earlier. I talk a lot about
that, you know, and remember, every twelve months you have another baby
that's being born. And when you'rebuying these grapes and paying for them within
nine months, you're not getting thatthat money back in bottle for basically twenty
(15:45):
at least twenty four months from theharvest. So there's a huge amount of
capital and cash flow and investment andjust cost and it's all up front,
so it takes a long time tomake a real profit and then throw in
the climactic issues. I talk aboutthe frost we've had over the last few
(16:08):
years that you know, basically nearlywell basically did put me over the edge
to a certain degree. One ofthe main reasons I decided to cell.
I mean, it's a tough business. I mean, it looks so pristine,
so wonderful, and I mean,and it can be, but it's
tough. It's farming. I meanit's high end farming, but it's farming.
(16:29):
And don't ever forget it, especiallywhen you look at the density of
our vines, the the you know, how we have to farm it,
all these kinds of things. Butin which I talk a little bit about
because I didn't want to make thisjust a textbook or a winebook. It's
a it's a you know, asI say, it's a little bit catching
confidential, a little moneyball with asplash of Julia Child. And I want
(16:52):
people to get a sense of whatit really is and also why it's wonderful
to go visit there. I mean, I mean I love going back now
with a tourists. I don't haveto have those those those headaches, or
that or those those stresses anymore.And I don't miss that well, I
also got a little bit of downand out in Paris, a little or
Willian because of dining at the diningat the fancy restaurants and what it's like
(17:18):
in the underbelly. And there's alot of underbelly. And it's a dangerous
business. You can be overcome by, you know, whatever gases. You
always hear about people falling into thetanks, you hear about terrible things.
I mean, you know, becauseof the carbon monoxide. You know,
but it's farming. But here's thething out it is farming. But let
me tell you apples are easy tosell them. Wine because you're dealing with
(17:41):
particularly nice states. You know.You know, wine is still you know,
part of the Bureau of Alcohol Tobaccowith firearms, as you clearly discussed
because you did it, and youknow, the United States is like fifty
different little countries. Ye, andit's very complicated. And then I think,
you know, I understand all ofthis because I'm so embedded the business.
But I think a lot of peopledon't realize how hard it is to
(18:02):
sell the wine. And as youtalk about it, and I can feel
the cringing when you go to theI mean, I had to laugh when
you talk about the characters of thebook, the know it alls and the
guy who did the throwaway. Imean you you have to pound the pavement
and do a lot of stuff thatI mean. Hell, you moved to
you knew to France to have alifestyle change. You moved into the wine
business to pursue a dream. Andnext thing, you know, and this
(18:25):
happens to a lot of people ina lot of businesses, including the one
I had. Next thing, youknow, all you're doing is worrying about
receivables. That's it. That's whyI walked away from my business. Alex.
I feel your pain. As BillGlinton would say as I read as
I read Climbing the Vines. Eventhough my business was a wine marketing and
colony marketing, public relations and defensefrom some of the things you talk about.
(18:49):
I lived in my own way,and one of the ones that killed
me was that you know, whenthe when the producer says, why is
it you asked me to make thewine and deliver the way? I'm the
last to get paid? Right?That just hit such a nerve about how
about you know? And you youtalk about and I still understand this,
(19:11):
Like people want to cut deals,and you're like, do I walk into
your Michelin Star restaurant and go,I don't want to pay sixty dollars today.
I feel like pay fifty cut mea deal exactly. And it's it's
endemic in the business, and youknow, I think the I mean,
I just I took the train downfrom New York. I was doing a
(19:33):
couple events up there, just arrivedhere in Washington, and you know,
you go in and you're right,you're paying as I wrote, twenty dollars
for a glass of wine, orseventy dollars for a basic bottle of white
burgundy that I would sell for teneuros, and people complained about what the
cost is. You know, Ialways say, if I sell a bottle
(19:56):
for ten or eleven euros, it'sthirty to thirty five dollars on a retail
shelf, and it'll be seventy dollarsfifty to seventy dollars in a restaurant.
You know, I think that's thereality of the business. And it's still
and writing it down, quite frankly, was cathartic. I'm sure it was.
It's just it's it's the nature ofthe beast we have, especially here
(20:19):
in the United States. That's whywhen we when you know, we Americans
go to France and you can goto Paris and Greg get great bottles of
wine, you know, at toprestaurants for a half of them in supermarkets.
Yeah, or supermarkets. I meanthe supermarkets are I mean, you
can find great wine in the supermarkets. So I think this is I mean,
this is the this is the name. And I talk a little bit
(20:41):
about that. I mean it's andI think it I just made. I
wanted to make some points, notto glaze people's eyes over with that silly
business piece of it, but itwas a very I think they need to
be cognizant that, you know,we're It takes a lot of money and
a lot of effort and to getthe wine making machine up and rolling,
(21:03):
and when all of a sudden peoplearen't paying their bills. It's very well.
As I say, what it does, it adds. It adds to
the end cost because there are someimporters and distributors who pay late, and
we would build in automatically a tenpercent higher price for them because we knew
no matter what they they what wedid, they would always pay late,
(21:23):
so they're going to pay there.They're basically I built in the interest costs
of the carry and that's that too. I had to do that too.
I and everybody thinks that they're beingbeing sharp and all that, it's just
costing everybody money. In the end, it's it's a waste. It's a
waste of money. But they're goingto change. Yeah. Yeah, it's
not going to change. Change.That's just the system. I mean,
(21:44):
it's it's crazy you you explain itso poignantly. But I want to underscore
you were very successful and you didthis for twenty years, twenty five years.
Yeah. Yeah, So in twentyfive years you built which is pretty
remarkable. You went to a party. First of all, you uprooted your
family, You went to France andand everybody did well. Your marriage didn't
(22:07):
rive, but we'll get into that. But you know, but you found
love in another way and another person. But you you paid your dues.
You did something a lot of peopledream of. But you also very clear,
don't get all dreamy gooey about gooeyeyed about it. I mean I
had to smile also. I meanwe're doing this interview in October and we've
(22:29):
got a couple more weeks of harvest. Some places laid harvest later. But
you talk about how how crazy itis. You know, you're trying to
you know, the timing is everythingduring harvest. Timing is everything. And
and then you've got like bus loadsof tourists coming because I think it's cool
to go see go go visit wineriesduring harvest. I have a friend in
(22:51):
Tuscany right now, which is likeyou, I have a couple of who
should we go visit? And I'mlike, nobody, nobody wants to see
you right now. I know.It's uh, you know, and it's
and it's really hard because most ofthese people want to come see you.
They're usually pretty good customers anyway,but it's just but but the importers know
not to come. It's it's theterist because this is the time. It's
(23:14):
beautiful time of year in Europe rightnow, just like it is in the
East Coast. So yeah, weyou know, we go during the shoulder
season, right in the middle ofall the heavy lifting and work. And
you know, we I learned andas I say, as I write in
the book to I learned to manageit pretty well. And and and people
would come and then I say,okay, well here you want if you
(23:36):
want lunch, you want to hanghere, do something useful. Clean these
boxes, clean these great boxes.And people get all excited. I give
them. I give them rubber bootsand they would spray the boxes down and
it seems trivial, but it's important. Oh they got an Instagram shot out
of it. Just don't ask themto do it for thirty days straight.
Well, trust me, I didthat my first year, my first stash
(23:56):
in mind school. I was justyou know, fucking is that right?
I was mucking the stems. Itold David. I mean, we know,
you know, we prepercord a lotof shows in July before everybody disappears
on August, and then they disappearagain in September and October. And it's
like, okay, let's just focuson authors during this time of the year,
and we're glad you were available.So, you know, I remember
(24:21):
saying once to David, you know, if all else spells, this is
after I close my company and wedon't have any money, let's just go
well, go work a harvest andjust get some you know, just help
a winery. And he looked atme like I had like five heads,
Like no, I did this fora long time. Please no, I
don't consider that like interesting or funanymore. It is it is unique for
(24:41):
like the tourists to get their snap. But it's hard work and you've got
to and you talk about you've gotto be part of a team. I
mean, harvest is a serious business. Timing is everything, and you know,
as you said, it's farming.Nature can change everything. One frost,
one bad rain, one big drought. You talk it throughout the book
towards the end about some of thetrends that you're seeing, you know,
(25:03):
reflecting back. I mean, youhad success for twenty five years. You
sold domain Alex Gamble to the BossFamily. Congratulations, thank you. I
mean, you know, gosh great, we've had them on the show.
You have a small interest, itlooks like in a winy called Gamble work
in the Santa Rino Hills. Correct, yes, tell us about that.
I only had your somebody. Iwas lucky to get a Volney and one
(25:27):
of your Chordinay's, but tell usabout the Gamble work. So basically one
of my business partners in the Vinesis from there, and we were discussing
we were having problems with the distributionin California, and he said, well,
let's meet with one of my formerclients. He was a money manager
and he has a winery now andhe's all bio bio dynamic like we were
(25:51):
with his vines, and went outthere and we really hit it off.
As Peter work. He's a Daneand he has this wonderful ranch out there
in the Santa Rita Hill and wejust got instead of doing any kind of
marketing, we all of a suddensaid let's se if we can make some
wine. And I think it wasat the point where I had a really
good team in place. They reallydidn't need me their day to day,
(26:12):
and so we thought it would bequote unquote fun. And so we have
a fourth partner who basically had hiscompany planted and managed is virtually all the
vines out there in Santa Barbara Countyand San Dinez County. He's planning like
four thousand acres over the last fortyyears. So we had access to really
really good grapes, and so Iliterally shipped over barrels, my barrels from
(26:37):
France because I didn't want the barrelsthat are sold to the wineries in California,
and we put in my template ofhow I make my Chardonnays and pino
noirs, and we made the firstyear a couple hundred cases, maybe three
hundred cases. In twenty eighteen upto seven hundred cases. But in eighteen
(27:00):
Heater got ill with pancreat titus rightat harvest. He was unable to help.
I got some help from the neighborwho helped me do the heavy lifting.
I made the wine, but asI write in the book, my
wife had been diagnosed with stage fourcolon cancer that had gone to her liver.
This was in March twenty eighteen.So in the middle of harvest in
(27:22):
California, I fly back to JacksonHole, where we had a summer place,
and we had her thirtieth or sochemo. I can't even remember at
this point. I think she hadforty five, he wrote, I think
fifty five at the d d infive. Yeah, yeah, I can't.
I mean, it's you know,one, maybe I don't remember now,
(27:44):
Melanie. But then flew back tofinish the wine in California, then
had to fly back to France aswe're finishing up harvest in Burgundy and I
go time out, stop no more. I just can't do this just too
much. And it was a greatexperiment. And we have about one hundred
cases left, but have the sameissues. You know, how do we
(28:08):
sell you know these you know,the the this wine, because you've got
to create a new brand. You'vegot to go out on the road selling
this wine. It doesn't sell itself. And you know, none of us.
I mean, you know, I'msixty six now, I mean,
and I go and I feel youngand great, but I did not.
(28:30):
I don't feel like going out poundingthe pavements. So oh with your schlep
bag, schleppin. I don't wantto slept sle I mean, you know
it's bad enough to the schlept booksnow. I can't believe I'm doing that.
Oh I've slept books too. Ijust I remember just sitting in restaurants,
you know, uh, and andbeing there waiting for my meeting that
I had, you know, doinga restaurant promotion last year in New York,
(28:52):
and the reps walk in. There'sbecause it's like the witching hour for
the reps. They come into veryspecific time, right, absolutely, Yeah,
I watched him wait and wait andwait, and I felt so lucky
because I had an appointment and youknow, they're trained terribly. Yeah,
it's oh and I write about that. It's yeah, I know it's rrible
and I and I do not missthat piece of the business in the least,
(29:15):
so so, you know, butthe California piece was, you know,
this, this idea was basically itwas really simple, could we create
a a California Shardi and pinan noir? And I really I love those from
uh the Santa Rita Hills. Ido too. I think they're terrific.
(29:37):
The fruit is very reminiscent of Burgundy. You don't get the candy cherry stuff
you get up in Sonoma. Andand I love Oregon, but it's different
again, and I already had therewere a lot of Burgundy in front.
I had Burgundy, and friends alreadygo into Oregon. So I thought,
you know, let's get let's givethis a shot. And you know,
we basically made two wines that oneof my partners say, it's not Burgundian,
(30:00):
but it's gamble Okay, it's gamblestyle, and I took that,
so I took that as a compliment. So they were very similar and I
remember there was I did a tastingonce and someone asked, you know,
why can't Californians make wine in theBurgundy style? And I go, well,
(30:21):
I think they can. In fact, we're doing it. But the
issue is is there a market forit? Yeah, maybe there's a market
for a thousand cases, but notten thousand, not one hundred thousand.
And that's the reality. Americans lovethese big, juicy, fruity wines that
have high alcohol, some residual sugar, and I mean, that's the market
(30:44):
and you can make a lot ofmoney making those kind of wines. My
attitude was, I don't drink thosewines, so I'm not going to make
those wines, you know. Andthat's you know, and that's my story
and I'm sticking with it. Asthey say, well in particularly the peano
nois and to have more forest floor, being more usteer. I mean,
we tasted in the vulnet that wewere sent and it's so dramatically unique.
(31:07):
Once you taste that style, ifyou are used to the bigger, fruity
or textured wines, it is asurprise. It's hard. It's hard,
it could be very hard, andwe had not had one for a while
and we both went and I said, I got it, you know,
because I was expecting it. ButDavid was like wow, and I said,
yeah, it's very Burgundian. You'renot going to get that. And
(31:29):
I happen to love it. Forthat reason. I'm a big fan of
Santa Rita Hills wines and I hopeI can get my hands on a couple
of bottles of what you're doing there, because you know, it's all over
the place. I love California,but you know, some of the wines
are all over the place, anda lot of it's because of where it's
made and how it's made, andit's just totally different TOOI no, it's
(31:52):
it is. It's apples and orangesthough. In Santa Rita because of the
cool weather summer till about the thirdweek in August when the you know,
the Pacific Ocean warms up finally,and you don't you're not getting the cooling
fog. You know, that's whatkeeps those wines fresh. But often people
(32:15):
will let those things hang and getto that fourteen and a half sixteen percent
alcohol, which when I first starteddrinking, you know, that was pork.
You'd have one glass of pork sixteensixteen and a half percent, excuse
me, and and my stuff twelveand a half thirteen percent. You know,
as long as I'm eating some food, I mean, I can drink
(32:36):
that stuff all night. As friendssay, it's very digest it's digestible,
it works, it's not gonna it'snot going to make you feel full and
have a necessarily a headache. Obviouslyyou drink a lot too much. That's
a different issue, but it's exactlythe wines are different, well, you
seem to. I just love theway the French conduct business. You start
(32:58):
with the apparero. After I wasreading this, I was like, David,
let's come in apao. I needa pao. I was like that,
it's like I gotta change. Ilove the European way of life deeply.
And you did something that I wantto do, which just move to
Europe, which we are going todo. I'm telling you, I don't
know how we're gonna make a living, because you know, I don't know,
(33:19):
but we are going to do it, and I'm gonna write a book.
So I admire you for all that. I saw so many similarities in
your life in mind, and we'renot too for a part in age.
I just did it in going toNew York to pursue a dream and succeeded.
And the one day I just lookedat David and I said, I'm
done there. I was diagnosed withcancer. So when you write about Diana's
your second wife and she gets,you know, an advanced stage of cancer,
(33:45):
I could feel that pain because Icould see David doing it while I
was going through my own chemo therapy, which was only thankfully twelve round,
so I can't imagine what fifty fivewould be like. He was trying to
keep my business going. We didn'ttell people that not cancer, because you
know, everybody just go ooh gross, I'm going to go get into the
(34:06):
agency, right, no loyalty andI hit it for two years, but
he had to straddle the world oftaking care of his wife in cancer and
running and keeping the business going andkeeping the business applications and flying around and
doing this and that and up front. So I felt that when you were
going through it. I felt itdeeply, and I'm sorry you lost her.
(34:30):
I know that you have a foundationin her memory of freestyle skiing.
Foundation because you're also a scape bomb. So that's a good thing, that
you're taking something positive out of theexperience. But I can understand why you
said I'm done. Yeah, Andit was as I right, it was
a lot of things. I didn'thave kids interested in the business, right,
(34:52):
I felt, you know, betweenDiana's illness and then and in also
in twenty sixteen, you know,fifty percent the crop the frost, but
eighty five percent of my best vineyards. And it was and it was clear
to me the business was changing withthe amount of big, big billionaire money
(35:13):
coming in, not million a billionairemoney buying land, creating I think a
false economy. But you know,you got I don't. I'm not going
to fight it. It's the wayit was. And then and then finally,
you know, climatic change, weatherchange, with with the with the
more and more the earlier and earlierharvests because we're not having the cold winters
(35:37):
we used to have, and therefore, but not having the cold winters,
we have early spring bud break andwe are then much more susceptible to you
know, killing frost. It's happeningeverywhere right now, and it's happening everywhere,
and so it it it required meto take a step back and go,
you know, I'm sixty sixty oneat this time. It was it
(35:58):
was it was Christmas twenty seventeen,January twenty eighteen. I was just turned
sixty back in June, and Igo, you know, do I want
to double down for another twenty yearsbecause you know it's going to take another
generation to figure out, you know, how what what are we gonna do?
How are we going to manage thevines? I mean what kind of
(36:19):
how are we going to change thecanopy? There were more and more viruses
and that are that are affecting thevine so that you you when you replant,
the vine is dead in ten orfifteen years. So you got all
these kind of you know, big, if you will, existential challenges that
I go, you know, ifI was thirty thirty five, i'd say,
I'd say I'm in, you know, and I'll figure it out.
(36:42):
But not at sixty I wasn't readyfor that. I had other projects,
other things that interested me or Ithought would interest interest interest me more at
this point, so I felt likewhy not walk away? And instinctively I
felt the market was very hot.I thought I could so, and I
had vines, which is what peoplewanted, and you had vines in a
(37:04):
very hard place to acquire vines.Yes, and I had very good vines
I had. I had, youknow, high end Appalachian wines. And
you know, it appealed to theBoisse family because they have several different operations
and the vines fit seamlessly into theirto their business. And I'd already worked
with them before for many years,buying and selling and trading grapes during harvest.
(37:30):
So it was in one level,it was a it was a very
pleasant It was you know, toughnegotiations, but it was a wonderful group
to work with because it's old school. You make a deal, you shake
hands, and then you work itout and and that's and I can't say
enough good things about that part ofthe transaction. And I'm a funny bird.
(37:50):
I felt like I got out closeto the top and walked away and
I haven't looked back. I havemy new projects out in the West.
I still have my house in France. I'm going back there in mid October
for five or six weeks. Andyou know, just I'm on a new
stage in life. I'm very happywith it. Well, I think you
got another first of all, youdidn't walk away. I walked away,
(38:14):
but I didn't sell. You walkedaway and you sold. I have a
lot of friends who are doing thisright now for all the same reasons you
say. It was harder for meto sell, because you know, it's
a service business. Don't ever gointo a service business. You had vineyards,
and they were valuable vineyards, andso you've made a good doll and
you made it at the right time, because then look what happened. The
(38:34):
whole world fell apart. It wasCOVID exactly. And that fall Trump put
in the twenty five percent tariff,Yeah, terrible, which stopped all sales.
And then obviously in February March wasCOVID and you know it was.
It was. I write in thereone of my good friend's business partners,
(38:57):
his wife, and Diana said,you know, we don't know if you
two guys are smarter, just damnlucky, and we go, we're damn
lucky because we look damn lucky.We're not that smart. Trust me,
we're two plotters. I think that'shalf the half the battle. You know,
serendipity led you to Becky, Imean, Becky Wasserman. It's she
(39:19):
I wish we had had the chanceto interview her for this show. We
didn't know her. But you howfortunate to have all the people you know,
to have as your mentor that's agood one. And then and then
to be able to walk away andsell to a very prominent family that appreciated
what you did. And the timingwas perfect because it just seems like everything
is getting harder for the I mean, you know, between powdery mildew and
(39:43):
downy mildew and hail, and youknow, it just sounds downright biblically disastrous
in the white business. You know, you hear about you know, Loo
Kocketty and Georgia the vineyards are wipedout, and then you read about you
know, grease and the wipings outand the frost that hit here and the
hail that hits here. It's reallyincredible. What's happening. It's it is
(40:04):
and I just, you know,look back and I go, you know,
I don't know. I I feelfortunate that I got out, and
I think it's the business. Anda place like Burgundy, you're either going
to have to be very very smalland do everything yourself, or be very
large people in the middle or asI write, who don't have the high
(40:30):
end appellations that they can sell fora lot of money per bottle are going
to have a hard time. Thoughthe prices have come up a lot,
I think, shockingly so, butit's still I mean, I think this
is in one of the chapters Italk about, you know, the cost
of production. Remember, it costsvirtually the same whether you sell the bottle
(40:51):
for two hundred years to produce thegrapes. Let's not talk about any kind
of you know, return on capitaland all that kind of stuff, but
the basic production of the grapes isvirtually the same whether you sell the bottle
for ten dollars or ten euros ortwo hundred euros. I mean there's a
slight change, but not twenty times. And that's and I think that the
(41:13):
end of the day, I justlooked at that that math and go,
I'm just not willing to work thathard anymore at it to make to just
to make it get by, becausethere were so many other outside influences that
were just you know, putting everythingat risk. I mean I talk about
(41:37):
that frost and twenty sixteen, Wellwhat it meant was that, you know,
I lost three to four hundred thousandeuros worth of grapes in about forty
five minutes on April morning, andthat would translate into you know, close
to eight hundred thousand euros worth ofwine and bottle close to a million dollars.
(41:59):
And that meant that a million dollarsless cash that I would have flowing
through the business twenty four to thirtysix months later. That makes it,
that makes for a tough business.Well, as you say, black morning
in April, you were talking toAla McCoy, who was myne writer from
Bloomberg, and she asked, whatwas happening Burgerny And you said, imagine
if you told Mike Bloomberg, thebillionaire, that in three of the next
(42:22):
six years you would have no incomeand have the same cost because of weather
like this, what would his reactionbe? And you know what, that's
the reality is, you still haveto run the business. I've interviewed so
many Vintnor's alex who've been, imean, in similar positions, and yet
they persist and they stay in thegame. I interviewed one woman who she
(42:43):
lost everything in a warehouse fire inCalifornia. Yeah, a lot of them
have other money behind them. That'sall I'm going to say. Well,
you know it's there. You Ihad a lot of bankloads. I gathered
that reading and it made me itchwell. And also I had been,
(43:05):
I had been, I had reinvestedeverything. So yeah, over those over
those third twenty five years, Inever took a salary. I I think
I took minimum wage in order toget the healthcare benefits, but otherwise I
just basically had, you know,in the accounty, my current account,
my my my owner's account, andI'd put money in and take money out,
(43:30):
and you know, it was verytax efficient, but it was the
only way to make the business workbecause you know, I was I was
the bank. It was, youknow, and I had outside investors and
you know, in some loans andthings like that, but fundamentally it was
you know a small amount of capitalthat kind of as I made money,
(43:51):
it went right back in, itdidn't go out. I was not paying
myself any dividends. And you know, in the book, I do know
if there's a photo there or notof of you know, the little apartment
I lived in for seven years.Yeah, and you're focusing on a toilet
or something. Yeah, remember thephoto I just I love the line,
you know, bank loans going onmy path. But you know, bank
(44:13):
loans, you know, they giveyou the umbrella and then when it starts
to rain, they want the umbrellaback. I've been there. So here's
my question, Alice, would youdo it all over again? Oh yeah,
oh yeah, there you go.I would do it differently, but
again, a large I mentioned thisin the book. I mean a large
(44:35):
part of it was, you know, we moved back with my first wife
and children to the United States afterfour years so they could relearn English and
go to US high schools. Thatwas something we felt that was important,
and so I literally commuted back andforth to France eight or ten times a
year, especially in the beginning whenwell it wasn't that hard. In the
(44:55):
beginning, there wasn't much going on. But if I had been there,
if we'd stayed there as a family, the cost would have been a lot
lower. I could have probably gottenvine sooner. It would have been a
whole different financial setup, in anoperational setup, and that would have made
(45:20):
a difference. But the reality wasmy wife and I had made a commitment
to get back. She wanted towork, and so I may do with
it by going back and forth untilreally four five, when the kids were
finally in college. And at thatpoint I had been separated and was in
the middle of divorce, so alot was going on. Yeah, that's
(45:44):
a lot, A lot was goingon. Yeah. So do you still
stay in touch with all the peoplethat you worked with in France? Oh?
Absolutely, I mean I do missthem a lot. I mean they
were my family, my friends.I'm looking forward to getting back. I
mean, this year it's been I'vebeen so busy with getting the book out
and and then I have a charityjob. I'm creating a daycare center out
(46:12):
in the Titons where I live,and so I've had a lot, a
lot of projects going on. ButI'm heading back on a couple of weeks
on the eighteenth of October. Sofabulous. So I'm looking for that and
we'll be there during the hospice andthe vultavan and see my friends and taste
and I usually taste at four orfive really good people who either worked for
(46:36):
me or with me, sold megrapes, who were who were who were?
You know, like family, Andas I say, I go back
now and I can, and nowI'm a civilian. I can go back
to civil and it's quite pleasant.Let me tell you, it's great not
to have those those as we sayin France, those soussi's, those worries,
(46:57):
those those stresses. Yeah, Ican't wait to get back, you
know. When we go to wineregions now we go with importers, are
on hosted press trips and the rightrapport. And I'm waiting for one for
back to Burgundy. But it's sothere's so much, it's so complex there,
and it's such an interesting you know, it's it's a long area and
(47:17):
it's so different from top to bottom, and it's there's so much there to
dive into. We've interviewed a fewproducers, not enough from Burgundy, but
really incredible place. I think peopledon't realize how cold it is, uh
and that's you know, you getthis, you know, that's the deep
(47:39):
dark secret of central of if youwill, Continental Europe is that damp,
cold, right, And that's franklyone of the reasons I wanted to get
out because after November one, Novemberseventh, that damp, cold and gray
and rolls in and it's like thatuntil April something like that, and where
(48:07):
I lived I lived up in thehills, the high hills, so I
was able to Actually I got alot of sun where I lived. The
cloud layer would be just below me. But then I would drive through the
clouds and be working and the sunwould finally burn off the clouds eleven twelve
o'clock and then by four o'clock it'sdark because we're so far north. So
(48:30):
it was pretty I don't miss that, let me put it that way.
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize that. I experienced it. When
we went to Champagne and then toBurgundy and then over to Alls House,
and then we headed south and wehit the Rhone and as soon as we
hit the southern roam, like thelight opened up. It's like, wow,
(48:51):
we'll there be light. It waslike a whole different France. Oh,
it's like a whole different world.It's I mean, it's night.
And we would we would just sometimesdrive down on a Friday night, have
dinner and then wake up and justdrive around the whole day just to be
out in the sun in the middleof January and February, because it does
(49:14):
get it gets pretty grim. Yeah, I felt that there it still beauty,
but the wines. The wines arebeautiful. Well, we're at the
end of the show. I've reallyenjoyed talking to Alex. I just want
to get makes week and so you'reselling again, because I know what it's
like to sell books and make countythe payment for small margins. I joke
(49:36):
and say, the only thing worsethan the wine business, I think is
the book publishing business. Trying tosell books. I think the margins are
slimmer, and you gotta sell alot of wine to make a lot of
money. And uh, you gotto sell a lot of bad wine to
make a lot of good wine.David always says, you gotta sell a
lot of bad wine to be ableto afford good wine exactly. And you
(49:58):
got to hustle to make any kindof sale in books. But I love
the book. It's I think everybodywho works in the white business should definitely
read it. It'll resonate. Butalso I think for people who just appreciate
wine, you do develop a significantappreciation for what's involved, and maybe look
at Vintnor's with more appreciation versus justyou know, tuling up the middle of
(50:22):
harvest and becoming a demanding tourist.It really opens your eyes and as I
believe and I think you believe,you know, like you can see life
with the glass half empty or halffull. But let's just drink the glass.
Damn it, right up, drinkthe glass. Damn it. Alex
Gamble climbing the vines and Brigundy.How an American came to own a legendary
(50:45):
vineyard in Francis out Now. I'vereally enjoyed talking to you, and I
hope we meet in person and clinkglasses over a great meal and a great
bottle. Thank you, Millip.I hope we can do that very ver
soon. Thanks. I hope.So you've been listening to the Connected Table
lot with Melanie Young and in spiritDavid Ransom. We are your insatiably curious
(51:05):
Coney couple, and we encourage youto step out of your comfort zone and
explore your paletate and expand your horizonsand what you see, taste, due
and how you live and always stayinsatiably curious. Thank you,
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