July 17, 2024 • 51 mins
The Southern Food & Beverage Museum (SoFAB) celebrates 20 years in 2024 with a new cookbook and special exhibits from Coffee Culture to the 125h Anniversary of Oysters Rockefeller. SoFAB Founder Elizabeth (Liz) Williams discusses how changes in the South's population over time have redefined southern food and shares a few "lagniappes" about popular dishes and drinks from styles of gumbo to chicory coffee. Williams hosts the weekly podcast "Tip of the Tongue" and writes a blog by the same title.
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The Connected Table is broadcast live Wednesdays at 2PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
The Connected Table Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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W FOURCY Radio. Welcome to theConnected Table Live. We're your hosts,
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Melanie Young and David Ransom. You'reinsatiably curious culinary couple. We enjoy bringing
you the dynamic people who are frontand center and behind the scenes in wine,
food, spirits and hospitality around theworld, and we enjoy sharing their
stories, comings and goings with youour listeners also around the world. Hello
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Italy, we miss you. Can'twait to go there in September. As
many of you know, David andI have finally chosen to settle in what
has always been our spiritual home,New Orleans, and we're so happy to
be here. And it's hot inthe summer here, it's a great time
to visit if you don't mind theheat, because there's so many deals around
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between culinary New Orleans, the diningdiscounts. We just got off restaurant week
to lots of discounts at museums.In fact, museums and one of the
things we've been doing on the weekendspicking out different museums or week actually to
visit. And one of the treasuresin New Orleans and Franklin, United States
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is the Southern Food and Beverage Museumin O. C. Hailey Boulevard,
which is a very historic neighborhood inNew Orleans known for civil rights and also
an interesting Jewish quarter. This museumcelebrates twenty years this year. Southern Food
and Beverage Museum known to locals assofab and if anyone is visiting New Orleans,
it really is a must if youlove food and food culture. I
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could get lost in the exhibits,the main exhibits and the special exhibits every
time ago I discover something. Sowe are here to celebrate the Southern Food
and Beverage Museum with its founder andalso talk about some of the activities happening
and also how things have changed overthe past twenty years, because Southern food
is a whole nother animal now.The founder is Liz Williams. It was
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her brainchild many many years ago,and Liz worked really hard. She's a
lawyer by profession and an advocate forfood policy. She's been very involved with
the arts and served for five yearsas the president of the Greater New Orleans
Foundation. She's a born and bredNew Orleanian from a family with a rich
Sicilian heritage, which is one ofthe many wonderful things about New Orleans,
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this historical culinary melting pot. Wefirst met Liz when we were organizing the
Tribute to New Orleans during the JamesBeard Awards, and sofab which was still
it's infancy, did a pop upduring the awards reception to bring awareness to
New Orleans. And it has reallygrown and it's so exciting. And this
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year for the twentieth there's a newcookbook out and some really great exhibits.
So we're really happy to have Liz, who we just had dinner with her
and her husband last week, joinus again because we had you in twenty
twenty two on the Connected Table.Welcome Liz, Williams. Thank you.
I'm really happy to be here.Gosh, hasn't a lot happened in twenty
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years? Think about it? Ohgosh, I can hardly believe it.
I mean, I remember when wewould sit around my dining room table and
just talk about this, and nowit's real. It's amazing twenty years later.
Yeah, it's also more than themuseum. You also created the National
Food and Beverage Foundation, So let'stalk about let's start with there. What
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is it and what is it encompass? Well, the National Food and Beverage
Foundation is really just the the HoldingCorporation. That's five oh one C three
Holder that has multiple, say pillars, and one of those pillars is the
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Southern Food and Beverage Museum, butother another pillar is our SOFAB Research Research
Center at New Nest Community College,and we have a lot of other projects
that are that are part of theNational Food and Beverage Foundation. We want
to go out to the research centerand check that out because we haven't.
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We've been to the museum many timesand loved going there. I think,
you know what's interesting, Let's talka little bit about your background and your
relationship with food growing up in foodcentric New Orleans and a big family like
you had from with a Sicilian heritage. Well, you know, New Orleans
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is just this fabulous food city,and everybody grows up interested in food just
effortlessly because it's everywhere. People talkabout it, people enjoy it, people
are tasting every other person's food allthe time, and so you can't help
but be really immersed in the foodculture of the city. And Italy,
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I think is the same way.And so all these Sicilians came over and
who came to New Orleans specifically becauseit was New Orleans, they brought with
them a similar kind of culture.And so because I am half Sicilian or
by heritage, I grew up inNew Orleans in that Sicilian community, and
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so I got a double whammy there. Well, and some there's some really
great restaurants that are ohed by familieswho have Sicilian heritage, right, a
lot of them, and a lotof them been around for a long time
too, family owns right. Youknow, if people get this, people
get this misconception. I think thatNew Orleans has is basically all French,
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and it isn't not even French,really, and it's not even French really
was. It was purchased in thatrespect, and so when people think of
New Orleans, they always think ofthat the French food, the Acadian food,
et cetera, et cetera, thatcame through New Orleans through the French
heritage. But there's so much Sicilianheritage down here as well, Oh,
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there definitely is. There are allsorts of things too that have affected the
food of New Orleans that are becauseof the Sicilians, and people have no
idea that that's case because it doesn'thave some fancy Italian name. One of
my favorite sort of stealth things aboutthe food of the Sicilians sneaking into the
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food of South Louisiana is that weuse bread crumbs to stuff our vegetables.
So not just artichokes that are stuffedwith bread crumbs, but if we make
meloton stuffed meloton, we'll use asour base breadcrumbs and maybe chop up some
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crab meat and shrimp in there,maybe a little bit of tasso or something
at blood, plus vegetables like onionsand garlic and such. We throw in
some Parmesan cheese that's grated and moundedup inside of that meloton stick it in
the oven. Same thing with abell pepper. But most of the South
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that makes stuffed peppers makes their stuffback peppers with rice, not with bread
crumbs. And those bread crumbs arebecause the Sicilians never threw stale bread away.
They always made bread crumbs from them, and so they were always around
to use. And it's just amazingto me that all of New Orleans does
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this and has no real understanding thatit came because of the Sicilians. Well,
I believe in your in your twentytwenty two cookbook None as Creo Italian
Table, I was looking at throughNone as Creole Italian Table, which is
in the New Orleans Louisiana section ofour cook bookshelf, and you have a
Creo tomadow stuff with breadcrumbs and othergoodies in it recipe. It's Creole tomato
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season. So we were thinking aboutdoing it. You know, you were
recently interviewed on you know, you'regetting a lot of press for the new
cookbook, and you talk about howin one of the interviews, how Southern
food and the concept of it haschanged. And I think it's interesting because
we had Brett Anderson on the showseveral weeks ago, and he commented,
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a lot of people think New Orleansis a multi restaurant city with six dishes,
and we laughed about that Southern foodhaving lived in the North. David's
from the North. I'm from theSouth. But the perception of Southern food
is funny when you leave the South. It's a lot of people just think
about barbecue and fried chicken. Youknow, hot chicken and barbecue, and
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you know, overcooked vegetables. Butit's so much more than that. I'm
curious, or we're curious, howsince you be started the Southern Food and
Beverage Museum twenty years ago and whereyou are now, what are some things
circumstances and trends and demographical impacts onwhat we consider Southern food today. Well,
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I think that the Southern Food andBeverage Museum's position is if you eat
it in the South, it's Southernfood. So the idea that you can
define Southern food by drawing a line, a chronological line somewhere on a timeline
and say if it if it waseaten before this time, then it's authentic
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Southern food. But if you eatit now, it's, you know,
some corruption of Southern food or it'snot Southern food at all. I think
that that's a crazy idea because Southernfood is continuing to evolve. There's no
place to draw that line. It'salways changing. And as we have new
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immigrants of various types coming into thearea, they're bringing their own way of
eating and their own proclivities to thetable, and so it's changing our food.
And when I say immigrants, I'mnot just talking about people from foreign
countries. I'm talking about people whocome from other states in the United States,
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because we're always having people come fromother states who come to the South
for business, or for health,or for some other reason, and they
were a different food culture with themwhen they arrive, and they also have
an influence on the food of theSouth, and so I think it's they're
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always constant shiftings of influence. Lookat someplace like Alabama. Alabama has a
large Lebanese Syrian community, and soit's not the least bit unusual to find
that you can people have kibbi athome and they eat kibbi because it's the
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food of their home. Now,you know, may not be any place
except in a Southern I mean aLebanese restaurant or a Middle Eastern restaurant or
something like that. But in general, you know, I've gone to people's
homes in Alabama and been served kibbibecause that's what they eat, and they
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might put hot sauce on it.They might do all kinds of things that
really identify as Southern food. Butit's not. It's not what people necessarily
expect when they go to the Southor when they're in Alabama. But there
are just lots and lots of examplesof that sort of thing happening. And
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sometimes when you have a large enoughgroup of people, their influence is really
very large, and often it's almoststealth because they just the food is just
absorbed and nobody even thinks about it. Even for example, think about the
Vietnamese in New Orleans. The Vietnameseeat but me, which is a sandwich,
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and they have this quick pickle thatthey put on the sandwich that's fresh
coriander and scallions and carrots, andso now in many publish shops in New
Orleans, they'll ask you do youwant a dressed New Orleans style or Vietnamese
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style, and you can actually insteadof getting regular sort of hamburger, pickles
and shredded lettuce. You can getthis wonderful fresh pickle on your po boy,
which is just terrific. That's sointeresting, it really is, actually
really is. Last night I wasso you have you host a podcast called
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Tip of the Tongue. It's weeklylike ours, and this is that you
can find it on substack, whichafter listening and watching a vowed that we're
going to get on. And Iwas listening to your show with our vendor
and his son at Saffron Nolo anotherexample of a new mashup of Southern food,
right the Indian influence, which wasalso Liz and David very big apparently
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at the Fancy Food Show this yearat the Summer Fancy Food Show. Well,
it was really delightful to talk tothem, because I think that what
happens is that you yourself lose theline between when this is New Orleans or
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this is the food of my heritage. You just kind of lose it because
your hairtage changes just by being somewhereelse. Yeah, and it applies.
I mean, I commented after anothershow up to the World's fifty Bess and
the bear to Warts came out adiaspora digning because so many restaurants now are
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part of a diaspora that blends wherethe chef and his family grew up and
where he arrived in Cave and howwe applies and maybe where he trained in
the Middle, she trained in theMiddle, in the different countries, and
how it all kind of comes togetherand a whole other type of style of
cooking right right, it's I mean, I just I think it's exciting.
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And when we were writing the books, that was a kind of thing that
we were interested in. We wantedto not write the same book of Southern
tropes that just get renewed in everybook. As you said, fried chicken,
barbecue, those are wonderful things andthere's no reason not to eat them,
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but you can find so many booksthat have those things in them.
We were looking to say, hmmm, how can you know, can we
use these ingredients that are in theSouth and the spices and herbs and techniques
from everywhere to to really talk aboutwhat people can eat today. Now,
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we want to also give a shoutout to your co author, Matty Hayes.
That's right, sofab cookbook and it'sLSU Press, you say, and
I think the Fox interview we werewatching that and you just refer this as
a modern book. You've got recipesthat include, you know, some historical
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like Tennessee Williams Kiln Pie and theKentucky Brown, but there's also contemporary as
well. Give us some examples ofthe old and the new. Well,
one of the things that we havein there is a tomato pie. So
tomato pie is certainly not a newidea. People have been eating tomato pie
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for a long time. But Ithink that being able to use a food
processor to make the dough and todo some of the things that we can
do today that make it a loteasier than it used to be. Those
new techniques bring something new to therecipe because it means maybe you can do
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it more often if you like,you know, if that's one of the
things you really like. And wewere just talking earlier about how it's tomato
season and so you know, yeah, we might eat a tomato sandwich with
lots of mayonnaise and all that sortof thing, which is a really quick
and easy snack to make with atomato. But having a tomato pie is
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also not hard. If it's easyto make the dough and pop it in
the oven. So it's definitely Ithink a new it's a new era so
that we have new ideas. Oneof my recipes is in there and deals
with a slaw and I mix mixdifferent kinds of cabbage together very very sinlly
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sliced on a mandolin, so thatit's not the kind of coleslaw that you
might have where it's chopped, wherethe cabbage is chopped, but it's all
sinsin and slices, and then throwin other sindy sliced things you can put
in green peas or finley slice radishesand any other kind of thing that you
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can kind of make in the samesort of shape as these sinley slice bits
of cabbage, and it makes thiswonderful fresh law. And because of the
way it's cut, it tastes reallycrunchy and it stays crunchy in your mouth,
unlike the cabbage that it gets choppedin a food processor into little pieces.
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And so I actually think that thiskind of slaw cut this way is
a throwback and it's not modern,because I think it's modern to throw everything
in the food processor and then justput sauce on it, some kind of
dressing and serve it. But becausethe pieces are so small, they become
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really soft, really fast in thedressing, whereas if you make them big
enough, you know, they keeptheir crunch even as they absorb the dressing.
And that's the way you used tomake flaw. And so I kind
of like the idea of going backto an old way of doing it.
It was it called coleslaw like coo l A. Is it supposed to
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be cold slaw? And somebody goes, I want some of that coal slaw.
No, it comes from the Germanword coal k o h l,
which means cabbage and and so,and then it's just spelled and a fanatically
for Americans or English speakers as coo l E. And so that's that's
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where it comes from. David,you're from the north, Was it slaw?
Cold law? Was coldslaw for metoo in the South. I want
some of that colts law. Ididn't realize that. I didn't realize it
the k o h l, No, I thought it'd be cold. Give
me some of that cold slaw?Yeah, No, nobody spells it with
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k o h l. But yeah, I'll be the vegetable, which I
love. David makes slaw, Yeah, I do. I love making.
He likes making slaw. I likemaking to. I made a tomato pot
that made me sit. You don'thave to try the sofab cookbook. That
really thin cut Liz. And itmakes me think that that would make a
great quick pickle to put over uponme as well. Absolutely would, Yeah,
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repurpose to. Lately, we've beentaking our old salads. It's my
favorite thing to take old salads,like day old salads and put up at
a blunder and make you know,cold. Yeah, that's like the best
thing ever to do. Everybody listening, take your old salads and we put
it a thunder. We did thatthe other day. We did watermelon,
tomato, feda, arugula and alittle bit of olive oil and it made
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a great soup. Oh it soundsterrific. Absolutely yeah. And you put
all the dressing at the bottom ofthe bowl and everything in that. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. We're into cold soups
right now. Do you have anycold cold soups in the in the cook
book? I don't believe. Iactually don't don't believe that we do,
but I I really I'm a fanof of coal foods. I think that's
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they're they're really really good. Ihad one once in Spain that was made
with green olives and and oh thatwas unbelievably wonderful. And in the South
and southern Spain you get that wonderfulwhite almond g spash. Oh my god,
it's to die for. I mean, unbelievable. Dad, My dad
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used to love you know, vshe swashed so thick, you know,
the spoon would stand up. Ohgod, yeah, that's amazing. Kind
of just eating coal mashed potatoes,that sounds great. Yeah, Well,
I took that overly Dowe peach Cobbermade last week and it ended up being
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great breakfast food. I put morepeaches in it and just became biscuits and
peaches and it was Actually that soundsgood. Sometimes leftovers are better than the
do over. Leftovers are sometimes betterthan the orige dish. So you also
have a lot of guest recipes,right. Who are some of the contributors
who gave provided recipes for the Soafabcookbook. Well, Brennan's Restaurant provided the
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Banana Faster recipe, which is reallyexciting because you feel that it's important that
it comes from the source and wehave lots and lots of just people who
are friends of ours who contributed recipes. We tried really hard not to make
it or let it be chef heavy, because we didn't want it to feel
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like it was hard to do andonly a chef can do this, or
you need to have special equipment inorder to make it work this way.
So it's mostly home cooks, Andthat's kind of because I think that very
much in the South, the foodat home is what we consider real Southern
food. It's one of those thingslike in New Orleans, you don't say
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where can I get the best gumbo? In New Orleans meeting who makes which
restaurant makes the best gumbo? You'reasking is it your mom or your aunt's
or your grandmother who makes the bestgumbo? Because nobody's going to say,
oh, go to this restaurant forgumbo. They're going to tell you some
family member who makes the best gumbo. A good point. That's a really
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good point and well taken. Althoughyou know, so I I was reading
you, so you have to tipat the top Ticnic of the Tongue podcast.
But you also have a blog andyou're starting a little book on your
sub stack about a personality and you'reactually trying to figure out who this I've
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read read it this morning, andtrying to figure out who this person is.
But you talk about in Lafayette,it's known for Lafayette, Louisianne is
known for the dark gumbo, right, which I happen to love. Yeah,
I love it too. And youknow, when you have the strong
flavors that Lafayette has, if you'reusing on dewey or you're having duck or
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something like that in your gumbo,you really need to balance that with something
really dark, like a dark room. And in New Orleans we have a
brighter gumbo, and if you're puttingcrab or shrimp in your gumbo, you
don't want to overpower those wonderful,delicate flavors with a dark dark room.
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And I think a lot of peopledon't understand the difference and why we sometimes
don't even put a root and somewhereor other, and I don't know where
it came from. People said,first, you make a room, as
though that was a rule, andyou don't always make a room. And
certainly, looking at nineteenth century recipes, you can find many many gumbos with
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no room at all. And itused to be that we said that there
were three different kinds of thickeners forgumbo, one representing each of the continents
that have influenced gumbo. One isrue and that came from Europe. One
is okra and that came from Africa. And one is file and that came
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from America. And certainly the NativeAmericans were eating sickened stews with that were
sickened with gumbo, I mean,with fele, long before any Europeans came
here. And so we really dohave three thickeners, and each of the
thickeners has its own flavor. Ruhas a flavor, you know. We
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don't have rue the way you mightmake a bechamel and just cook it long
enough so it doesn't taste like rawflour and then you mix in your bilk
and cheese or whatever you're going toput in it. We darken that roo
and toast the flower so that itactually has a flavor, and okra has
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a flavor, and pile has aflavor. So our sickeners actually add flavor.
And so it's important to know whichflavor you want, and sometimes Rue
is the wrong one. So forour fabulous global listeners, who probably a
huh, I'm you explain with pheleis because it's not like a vegetable Okra
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people can identify with, right,but how would you describe feel as they
can with a flower. Fele Ismade from dried sassafras leaves and do you
dry the leaves and then you grindthem up or pound them to make them
into a powder. And sassafras isnative to the Americas and no one had
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ever seen it before the Europeans,no one from Europe had ever seen it
before, and it was a newIt was basically a new spice. I've
always said that if people were fromEurope were looking for new spices, here
was cile right in front of them, and they never saw it as a
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spice that could have been added toall the other spices that we eat in
different cultures. And I think it'sit's an underutilized spice. Yeah. Most
people notice sassafras tea that's made withroots. Yeah, that's made with the
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root of the sassafras tree, orthey make groop beer with it or something
like that. Yeah, But theroots and the leaves were used. The
leaves made sele interesting. Yeah,sassafras and root beer. You know,
there used a bit the sassafras candy. Oh, I like Sasa fresh camember
Sa fras candy. You could getit like Gatlinburg. Yes, that's parilla
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also a thing. So this isthe twentieth anniversary. You've got some big
plans all year one that's kind ofcoming up. And this is an evergreen
you know, but we'll talk aboutit in general. There's this big exhibit
on coffee. I don't think alot of people around the world realize the
incredibly deep relationship New Orleans has withcoffee. So let's talk about that a
little bit. And National Coffee Ibelieve or not. I just learned because
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I got a pitch is August,how timely, So we're going to be
opening this exhibit actually next week,and it's called the Natural Port, a
look at New Orleans Coffee Culture,and it is based on the idea that
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coffee has been coming into the Portof New Orleans since the eighteenth century.
So Europeans brought coffee first to theCaribbean Islands, then to Central America,
and then to the northern part ofSouth America. And every time they began
to import it into the United States. They did it through the Port of
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New Orleans, which they called thenatural port. It's natural to just take
things in through the Port of NewOrleans and then it would go upriver to
various places in the United States.So New Orleans has been importing coffee for
three centuries during in some part ofthree centuries, and we have still in
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the city companies that are family ownedcompanies that have been around since that time.
So the New Orleans used to importgreen coffee, and then some of
the green coffee would be shipped greento other places. So I know that
New Orleans used to ship green coffeeto Maxwell House when Maxwell House was actually
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originally just a hotel, and sothey became famous for their roast and the
coffee that they that they served there. But they would get their coffee green
from the ports from the Port ofNew Orleans. You know, that's interesting
because Folgers, which is from SanFrancisco and very famous obviously it's in every
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grocery store, actually moved their operationsto New Orleans because they wanted to be
closer to the green coffee that wascoming in through here. That's right.
They closed their facility in Kansas Cityand moved into New Orleans. Now it's
it's huge. Plus they do copacking. I mean it's a it's a
big operation. And I love itwhen you're driving on the Expressway just when
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they're roasting and you can just beoverwhelmed by the aroma. Yeah, it's
kind of fun. So what isthe relationship with the New Orleans and the
chickery coffee which is so unique asI think it's very just unique to New
Orleans. Yeah, I think it'ssomething that mostly is just drunk in New
Orleans today. But in France therewere some periods when in one dispute or
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another with England or someplace, theyhad trouble getting coffee. Plus the people
of France during those early days werenot as wealthy as say people in England
or the Netherlands or in Spain.So chickory grows wild in France, and
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so people would dig up the chickeryroot and they would toast it and then
grind it and mix it with theircoffee to extend the coffee. So there
was about a third coffee, Imean a third chickory and two thirds coffee.
So they were saving a third ontheir coffee. Expenditures by using chickory.
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So then they brought that practice withthem to New Orleans when they came
in seventeen eighteen and founded the city. They were actually here before that,
but when they founded the city andpeople and they were actually having to import
chickory so that they could keep upthe practice. Because people grew to like
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the flavor. And so it's thesort of thing where you drank it as
a child. You've had this lusciouscoffee and chickory with cream or milk in
the morning, and those bowls thatyou would hold with two hands, and
that was a flavor. And soyou might have pure coffee at night in
your demitas, but this was thepractice that you had coffee and chicory,
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and they thought of it as anotherflavor. So just as mocha or something
is not delterated coffee, it isits own flavor, a mixture of coffee
and and chocolate. Coffee and chickeryto them was its own flavor. So
we grew to like the flavor.Now. It's also said that during the
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Civil War, where it was hardfor the South to get coffee, it
was extended with the practice of addingchickery. But for them. This was
a substitute. This wasn't like,Oh, I really like coffee and chicory,
so that's what I'm going to choose. They were doing it as second
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best, so as soon as theywere able to go back to coffee and
no chickory, they did. ButNew Orleans never lost its flavor, its
taste for coffee and chickory, neverthinking of it as second best. They
thought of it. I think ofit as its own flavor, and so
(33:52):
I have coffee and chicory in themorning every morning. And yet if I
searched demitanos after dinner or something,it's likely to be pure coffee, just
because that was that was the wayI grew up. So it's just habit,
you know. Chickory is also amedicinal medicinal product weed or baceous herb
(34:16):
that has some help with digestive issues, although it can go to the other
end of digestive and laxative too,but a lot of in ancient times.
That's how it was consumed as amedicinal plant as well, which could also
have some old wives tail type tiesto it if you dig deep into the
connection between food and medicine over time, So it's pretty interesting looking forward to
(34:38):
going to that exhibit. David lovescoffee. I never drank coffee really until
David came into my life because mymom and dad. Oh god, my
mother didn't drink anything but milk,and my dad drank instant coffee. Maxwell
houses the coffee. Oh god.Yeah, I grew up in a I
grew up in a box meal.My family drank maxim Oh god, that's
(34:59):
a my mother. My mother's acoffee fanatic and she loves all fabulous coffees
and whatnot. But my dad drankmaximum everything. David makes me coffee.
Really. I like my coffee.David knows. I have to have it
black with turmeric, cinnamon, andwhat's the ginger, and that my little
herbs in it, I mean,so spices in it, and it's like
so good. I've cut out themilk to produce my dairy because I do
(35:21):
love a good cafe. I doMond cafe. Oh my god, it's
so good. You know. Funnygrowing up in the Northeast, and you
know, it's all over the placenow, but there was chickery on the
side of the roads and then allthe fields and I never even thought of
it. Salad he picks up andput them in a vase, and that
was it. I never realized itwas the same chickery. Be careful what
you pick for Right now, there'sall these mushrooms growing in our and all
(35:43):
the yards in our neighborhood, andI'm convinced ser poises. Yeah, well
you definitely don't want to pick upthe odd mushroom out of your yard.
That would be Now, this isa fun This is a fun upcoming event
celebration the hundred twenty fifth anniversary ofOyster's Rockefeller. So what's gonna happen.
(36:04):
Well, so there's going to bea contest and the folks at Anton's are
going to be the judges. Sothey are going to be several categories,
but one category is sort of yourtwist on oster Rockefeller as well as you
know, who can make the bestpure oysters Rockefeller without actually knowing all of
(36:28):
the secret ingredients. Yeah, soI think it's going to be a whole
lot of fun. There's going tobe a lot of grilled oysters to be
had that that day. Everybody's goingto be able to taste them, and
they'll be another category of where peoplewill be able to choose the people's choice
(36:50):
also, so there'll be lots andlots of fun things happening on that day.
So who are the contestants? Arethey professionals? Are regular people who
like to com cooks? No,it's going to be restaurants. I mean,
you will be able to You stillcan participate, but we're really asking
restaurants to to do it because theyprobably have the equipment and whatever in order
(37:12):
to make it happen, whereas professI mean home cooks probably need to be
in their home kitchen in order tomake it. Oh, I love me
a good boy. I love welove oysters, and I like personally,
I like a raw but a grilledoyster can be a broiled oyster unbelievable,
particularly when they're big, fat,plumpy oysters unbelievable. Yep, yep,
(37:35):
I'm I'm a big fan. Ireally like them, and I like them
hot. That's why Oyster Pope Boyis one of my absolute favorites. And
I actually was lucky enough to eata bun me that was what I considered
an absolute mish match of South Louisianaand Vietnam. It was abund me made
(38:00):
with foie gras and fried oysters.It was where did you have that at
Dan Song? H Really, we'llhave to go back out there. We've
been there wines and it's you know, it is quite the drive and once
and it was eight o'clock in themorning, so they were they only had
the bakery open, they didn't actuallyhave the restaurant open yet. So yeah,
(38:22):
yeah, yeah, I'd like toget there. Though. It is
definitely a hide, yes, andit wasn't special. It wasn't something that's
always on their menu. So I'maware of that. Because it's not there,
you're not going to, you know, run out and get some fa
for you. Even though it wasreally good. It's an interesting place.
(38:45):
We really enjoyed our little visit there. If I'm going to go into the
restaurant, I never passed so manytire places on the way out. It's
just an interesting drive that we did. Henru going back to Tennessee, but
we want to go there, andapparently they have one of the most coveted
kingk in the city. They do, They absolutely do, and it's probably
as close to a traditional old fashionedking cake that I remember from when I
(39:08):
was a kid that you're going tofind in the city. It's it's a
little bit. It's it's not thesame kind of recipe that Mackenzie's would have
had because I think they put riceflour in their in their recipe. But
oh it was. It was reallyreally it's really good and it has a
(39:31):
lightness and a slight cinema neeness thatI remember from when I was a child,
and it's not I mean, theymake a stuffed one, but you
don't have to get something that's stuffedwith every other kind of sweetness in the
world. Yeah, we noticed alot of weird king cakes, you and
(39:52):
I have done. I've done aninterview with you about king Cakes for I
think it was Sante magazine and therethey're like everybody has a rift now on
it. But we like them lightand not too sugary. You grew up
in the Lake Food area of NewOrleans, where we happened to be living.
What are some of your food memoriesof places you used to go and
are any of them still in business? Actually, there really aren't any that
(40:16):
are still in business, which isreally disappointing. But I remember going crabbing
at the lake Front. We goto the to the steps that go down
and throw crab crab nets into thewater and pull them out, and we
(40:38):
catch crabs. You'd go with abasket, a bushel basket or whatever and
fill it up with crabs and gohome. It was. It was a
different time and lake you did notlook the way it looks now. It
was not nearly that developed. Therewere lots and lots of empty lots and
uh they were usually not very wellended, so they'd be overgrown with two
(41:04):
berries and blackberries, and you couldgo with a bucket and just in your
neighborhood pick all these berries. Itwas just it was a different place than
it is now now you it soundskind of dreamy. I remember going when
I was ten out to concentrate intoone of those crab shacks and stay all
blew away. I think it wasincredible. Yeah, oh yeah, they
(41:27):
were wonderful, like Fitzgerald's and placeslike that. I think it was Fitzgerald.
Now you live in another historial.What neighborhood in New Orleans is in
his story? You live in challMatt. Why don't you tell our listeners
why they should come visit with chalMatt, Because you know, people come
to New Orleans, they never leave, like two neighborhoods, So we're trying
to get to move beyond those twoneighborhoods. What is it about chal Matte
(41:49):
that would draw visitors, Well,there's there's several things in chal Matte and
Saint Bernard Parish. One is thatthe original oldest Asian settlement in the United
States is in Saint Bernarc Parish.It was called San Malo, and it
(42:10):
was populated by people who jumped shipfrom Spanish galleons from the Philippines who had
been basically shanghaied into working on theseships. And as New Orleans, the
Port of New Orleans and the wholearea along the coast would be traversed by
(42:35):
the galleons. You would see allthese little islands, and the people on
the boats would jump ship because theyfelt, oh, that looks like the
Philippines, and they would jump shipand they'd just feel totally at home,
and the Spanish people on the boatwere afraid to go after them, so
they just escaped. And so theycreated the settlements, and they began doing
(43:00):
what they had been doing in thePhilippines, which was catch and dry shrimp
salt and let them dry. Andso those packages of salted dried shrimp that
you see everywhere that people used toseason their food. That came from the
Filipinos who created the settlement of SanMala. So that's here in Saint Bernard.
(43:24):
And also in Saint Bernard we havemany many places where you can go
deep sea fishing and that's really fun. And there are sugar plantations and all
kinds of things. And of courseour research center is here in Shelmut.
(43:45):
So people now, can anyone cometo the research center and what will they
find? Anyone can come and thenwe'll find many, many books. We
have a huge collection of ephemera thatis all related to food drink, everything
from swizzle stix to paper cocktail napkins. And we have also some really old
(44:13):
old books. And the books arenot all cookbooks. People come and they
say, oh, these aren't cookbooks. We have books about everything that is
related to food and drinks. Soit can be historical, it can be
biographies of famous chefs, it canbe cookbooks, it can be the history
of bourbon and how to make beer. We have books about foraging, books
(44:34):
about nutrition, books about the economicsof food, about agriculture policy, books,
all kinds of books about food.So people will just be amazed at
what kind of resources there are.And then one of your goals when you're
thinking about the the future, becauseyou've stepped you know, you've kind of
(44:57):
changed your own role with SOFAB isto do more with the research center,
make it more accessible for students andlet people know that there is such a
wealth of information there. That's reallytrue, and we have been really fortunate
that is getting out. We've hadpeople come as some as far away as
Australia to do research here and sowe've been really excited to see that people
(45:23):
have come and been able to useit and find that they had things that
they hadn't found anywhere else except hereon the shelves. So that was exciting.
That's been exciting. We'll have togo out and pay it a visit.
As we talk about chall Matt,we need to go. You know,
we'd be remiss if we didn't talkabout another wonderful reason New Orleans was
(45:45):
a successful port bringing in booze andcocktails, and with Tails of the Cocktail
coming up, we want to underscorethat the SOFAB is also the home to
the Museum of the American Cocktail.That's right, that's right. And of
course New Orleans was always a citywhere there was a lot of smuggling,
(46:06):
and so we had practice in smuggling. We already had big warehouses in the
swamps and things where things went.During Prohibition, for example, they just
were just reopened and lots and lotsof things would come in through the port
or through the alternate port openings touh, to make it possible to have
(46:30):
some actually good good drinks and goodbeer and good good spirits, uh to
drink, and not just kind ofnasty stuff that people made. Yeah,
for anyone coming, there's a wholeyou know, there's some wonder The Southern
Food and Beverage Museum is fabulous becausethere's so much history beyond Louisiana. I
(46:54):
mean, it's the entire Southern States, which are there are a lot of
Southern states, and then the regionswithin them. It's like it's like wine
and Ava's. You know, there'sso many sub areas, whether it's East
Texas, West Texas, East Tennessee, West Tennessee, East North, you
know, on and on and on, and then you've got this inside the
Museum of American Cocktail, which youcould get lost in as well. There's
(47:16):
also a cooking school and children's programs. What do you have in the works
around all of that for the twentiethWell, the kids programs have all been
really reformed and revamped. So we'rehaving camp right now and it's an all
(47:37):
day camp now and not just ahalf day camp, which is really really
fun and I think it's easier forparents too. And we have also a
gumbo garden where we actually have takenthe museum outside and we grow in various
(47:58):
raised beds. We have an Europeraised bed, a Africa raised bed,
and an America raised bed, andduring the different seasons we grow plants that
came from those places that are inuse in America now in the South to
(48:19):
you know, be the food ofthe South. And most people don't know
that we brought sesame seeds from Africa, or that okra came from Africa,
or sorghum came from Africa. Andthere are other things too, but rice,
for example, was brought to usthrough the Africans, and you know,
(48:40):
rice is really important to the South, and people just forget about where
it comes from. Well, yougo to North Carolina, you go to
the Carolinas, and they drive ithome and it's it's so important. So
congratulations on achieving a milestone. Andof course there's more, and you've got
(49:01):
a lot going on because you're goingto be focusing on doing a lot of
writing. And I'm kind of excitedto follow this little story that you're started
on Tip of the Tongue. It'sactually encouraged me, Liz, to do
that with the story I want towrite, because, as you know,
writing is a discipline and the moreyou can do to get people to encourage
(49:22):
you, the better. Where canour listeners find and follow you as we
wrap this show up? Well,the substat it's on substack and it is
partly free and partly membership, butour subscription. But it's called Tip of
the Tongue and if you go onto substack and put in Tip of the
(49:44):
Tongue, it just comes up.But the podcast is free and you can
listen to it anywhere you listen topodcasts. There's an RSSV that goes to
any of the normal places like Spotifyand whatever where people can listen to podcasts.
Don't have to listen to it onsubstack. And so I write a
(50:07):
column once a month and the Noladot com so if those people who are
looking for recipes, and also Iwrite for Louisiana Life magazine, if they
want recipes from me, those arethe places to find them. And of
course you can get the book onall your normal book purchasing channels of Southern
(50:27):
Food and Beverage Museum Cookbooks. Socongratulations and thank you for joining us.
I'm sure we'll see you soon inthe circles and probably the Tales of the
Cocktail. Yes, I'll definitely bethere. Yeah, well, fans,
Williams, thank you for joining us. It's always great. I hope everybody's
enjoying this. Come to New Orleans. Go check out the Southern Food and
(50:49):
Beverage Museum and the Museum of AmericanCocktails. Visit Shell Matt Visit visit neighborhoods
beyond the French Quarter. We lovethe French Quarter, but this is a
big city filled with amazing history anddelicious food and natural beauty, and you
know we love it. We choseto live here. So our message to
all of you, of course,as we wrap this up. Besides,
please follow us on the Connected tabledot com and listen to all our shows
(51:13):
on your preferred podcast channel on anyof them really is to say and say
she'd be curious. Thank you,
The topics and opinions expressed in thefollowing show are solely those of the hosts
and their guests, and not thoseof W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are
affiliates. We make no recommendations orendorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or onour web. No liability, explicit or
implied shall be extended to W FOURCYRadio or its employees are affiliates. Any
questions or comments should be directed tothose show hosts. Thank you for choosing
(00:21):
W FOURCY Radio. Welcome to theConnected Table Live. We're your hosts,
(00:45):
Melanie Young and David Ransom. You'reinsatiably curious culinary couple. We enjoy bringing
you the dynamic people who are frontand center and behind the scenes in wine,
food, spirits and hospitality around theworld, and we enjoy sharing their
stories, comings and goings with youour listeners also around the world. Hello
(01:06):
Italy, we miss you. Can'twait to go there in September. As
many of you know, David andI have finally chosen to settle in what
has always been our spiritual home,New Orleans, and we're so happy to
be here. And it's hot inthe summer here, it's a great time
to visit if you don't mind theheat, because there's so many deals around
(01:27):
between culinary New Orleans, the diningdiscounts. We just got off restaurant week
to lots of discounts at museums.In fact, museums and one of the
things we've been doing on the weekendspicking out different museums or week actually to
visit. And one of the treasuresin New Orleans and Franklin, United States
(01:48):
is the Southern Food and Beverage Museumin O. C. Hailey Boulevard,
which is a very historic neighborhood inNew Orleans known for civil rights and also
an interesting Jewish quarter. This museumcelebrates twenty years this year. Southern Food
and Beverage Museum known to locals assofab and if anyone is visiting New Orleans,
it really is a must if youlove food and food culture. I
(02:12):
could get lost in the exhibits,the main exhibits and the special exhibits every
time ago I discover something. Sowe are here to celebrate the Southern Food
and Beverage Museum with its founder andalso talk about some of the activities happening
and also how things have changed overthe past twenty years, because Southern food
is a whole nother animal now.The founder is Liz Williams. It was
(02:36):
her brainchild many many years ago,and Liz worked really hard. She's a
lawyer by profession and an advocate forfood policy. She's been very involved with
the arts and served for five yearsas the president of the Greater New Orleans
Foundation. She's a born and bredNew Orleanian from a family with a rich
Sicilian heritage, which is one ofthe many wonderful things about New Orleans,
(03:00):
this historical culinary melting pot. Wefirst met Liz when we were organizing the
Tribute to New Orleans during the JamesBeard Awards, and sofab which was still
it's infancy, did a pop upduring the awards reception to bring awareness to
New Orleans. And it has reallygrown and it's so exciting. And this
(03:22):
year for the twentieth there's a newcookbook out and some really great exhibits.
So we're really happy to have Liz, who we just had dinner with her
and her husband last week, joinus again because we had you in twenty
twenty two on the Connected Table.Welcome Liz, Williams. Thank you.
I'm really happy to be here.Gosh, hasn't a lot happened in twenty
(03:42):
years? Think about it? Ohgosh, I can hardly believe it.
I mean, I remember when wewould sit around my dining room table and
just talk about this, and nowit's real. It's amazing twenty years later.
Yeah, it's also more than themuseum. You also created the National
Food and Beverage Foundation, So let'stalk about let's start with there. What
(04:04):
is it and what is it encompass? Well, the National Food and Beverage
Foundation is really just the the HoldingCorporation. That's five oh one C three
Holder that has multiple, say pillars, and one of those pillars is the
(04:25):
Southern Food and Beverage Museum, butother another pillar is our SOFAB Research Research
Center at New Nest Community College,and we have a lot of other projects
that are that are part of theNational Food and Beverage Foundation. We want
to go out to the research centerand check that out because we haven't.
(04:48):
We've been to the museum many timesand loved going there. I think,
you know what's interesting, Let's talka little bit about your background and your
relationship with food growing up in foodcentric New Orleans and a big family like
you had from with a Sicilian heritage. Well, you know, New Orleans
(05:09):
is just this fabulous food city,and everybody grows up interested in food just
effortlessly because it's everywhere. People talkabout it, people enjoy it, people
are tasting every other person's food allthe time, and so you can't help
but be really immersed in the foodculture of the city. And Italy,
(05:30):
I think is the same way.And so all these Sicilians came over and
who came to New Orleans specifically becauseit was New Orleans, they brought with
them a similar kind of culture.And so because I am half Sicilian or
by heritage, I grew up inNew Orleans in that Sicilian community, and
(05:57):
so I got a double whammy there. Well, and some there's some really
great restaurants that are ohed by familieswho have Sicilian heritage, right, a
lot of them, and a lotof them been around for a long time
too, family owns right. Youknow, if people get this, people
get this misconception. I think thatNew Orleans has is basically all French,
(06:18):
and it isn't not even French,really, and it's not even French really
was. It was purchased in thatrespect, and so when people think of
New Orleans, they always think ofthat the French food, the Acadian food,
et cetera, et cetera, thatcame through New Orleans through the French
heritage. But there's so much Sicilianheritage down here as well, Oh,
(06:39):
there definitely is. There are allsorts of things too that have affected the
food of New Orleans that are becauseof the Sicilians, and people have no
idea that that's case because it doesn'thave some fancy Italian name. One of
my favorite sort of stealth things aboutthe food of the Sicilians sneaking into the
(06:59):
food of South Louisiana is that weuse bread crumbs to stuff our vegetables.
So not just artichokes that are stuffedwith bread crumbs, but if we make
meloton stuffed meloton, we'll use asour base breadcrumbs and maybe chop up some
(07:20):
crab meat and shrimp in there,maybe a little bit of tasso or something
at blood, plus vegetables like onionsand garlic and such. We throw in
some Parmesan cheese that's grated and moundedup inside of that meloton stick it in
the oven. Same thing with abell pepper. But most of the South
(07:42):
that makes stuffed peppers makes their stuffback peppers with rice, not with bread
crumbs. And those bread crumbs arebecause the Sicilians never threw stale bread away.
They always made bread crumbs from them, and so they were always around
to use. And it's just amazingto me that all of New Orleans does
(08:05):
this and has no real understanding thatit came because of the Sicilians. Well,
I believe in your in your twentytwenty two cookbook None as Creo Italian
Table, I was looking at throughNone as Creole Italian Table, which is
in the New Orleans Louisiana section ofour cook bookshelf, and you have a
Creo tomadow stuff with breadcrumbs and othergoodies in it recipe. It's Creole tomato
(08:28):
season. So we were thinking aboutdoing it. You know, you were
recently interviewed on you know, you'regetting a lot of press for the new
cookbook, and you talk about howin one of the interviews, how Southern
food and the concept of it haschanged. And I think it's interesting because
we had Brett Anderson on the showseveral weeks ago, and he commented,
(08:50):
a lot of people think New Orleansis a multi restaurant city with six dishes,
and we laughed about that Southern foodhaving lived in the North. David's
from the North. I'm from theSouth. But the perception of Southern food
is funny when you leave the South. It's a lot of people just think
about barbecue and fried chicken. Youknow, hot chicken and barbecue, and
(09:16):
you know, overcooked vegetables. Butit's so much more than that. I'm
curious, or we're curious, howsince you be started the Southern Food and
Beverage Museum twenty years ago and whereyou are now, what are some things
circumstances and trends and demographical impacts onwhat we consider Southern food today. Well,
(09:39):
I think that the Southern Food andBeverage Museum's position is if you eat
it in the South, it's Southernfood. So the idea that you can
define Southern food by drawing a line, a chronological line somewhere on a timeline
and say if it if it waseaten before this time, then it's authentic
(10:03):
Southern food. But if you eatit now, it's, you know,
some corruption of Southern food or it'snot Southern food at all. I think
that that's a crazy idea because Southernfood is continuing to evolve. There's no
place to draw that line. It'salways changing. And as we have new
(10:26):
immigrants of various types coming into thearea, they're bringing their own way of
eating and their own proclivities to thetable, and so it's changing our food.
And when I say immigrants, I'mnot just talking about people from foreign
countries. I'm talking about people whocome from other states in the United States,
(10:48):
because we're always having people come fromother states who come to the South
for business, or for health,or for some other reason, and they
were a different food culture with themwhen they arrive, and they also have
an influence on the food of theSouth, and so I think it's they're
(11:11):
always constant shiftings of influence. Lookat someplace like Alabama. Alabama has a
large Lebanese Syrian community, and soit's not the least bit unusual to find
that you can people have kibbi athome and they eat kibbi because it's the
(11:35):
food of their home. Now,you know, may not be any place
except in a Southern I mean aLebanese restaurant or a Middle Eastern restaurant or
something like that. But in general, you know, I've gone to people's
homes in Alabama and been served kibbibecause that's what they eat, and they
(11:58):
might put hot sauce on it.They might do all kinds of things that
really identify as Southern food. Butit's not. It's not what people necessarily
expect when they go to the Southor when they're in Alabama. But there
are just lots and lots of examplesof that sort of thing happening. And
(12:18):
sometimes when you have a large enoughgroup of people, their influence is really
very large, and often it's almoststealth because they just the food is just
absorbed and nobody even thinks about it. Even for example, think about the
Vietnamese in New Orleans. The Vietnameseeat but me, which is a sandwich,
(12:43):
and they have this quick pickle thatthey put on the sandwich that's fresh
coriander and scallions and carrots, andso now in many publish shops in New
Orleans, they'll ask you do youwant a dressed New Orleans style or Vietnamese
(13:05):
style, and you can actually insteadof getting regular sort of hamburger, pickles
and shredded lettuce. You can getthis wonderful fresh pickle on your po boy,
which is just terrific. That's sointeresting, it really is, actually
really is. Last night I wasso you have you host a podcast called
(13:28):
Tip of the Tongue. It's weeklylike ours, and this is that you
can find it on substack, whichafter listening and watching a vowed that we're
going to get on. And Iwas listening to your show with our vendor
and his son at Saffron Nolo anotherexample of a new mashup of Southern food,
right the Indian influence, which wasalso Liz and David very big apparently
(13:52):
at the Fancy Food Show this yearat the Summer Fancy Food Show. Well,
it was really delightful to talk tothem, because I think that what
happens is that you yourself lose theline between when this is New Orleans or
(14:13):
this is the food of my heritage. You just kind of lose it because
your hairtage changes just by being somewhereelse. Yeah, and it applies.
I mean, I commented after anothershow up to the World's fifty Bess and
the bear to Warts came out adiaspora digning because so many restaurants now are
(14:37):
part of a diaspora that blends wherethe chef and his family grew up and
where he arrived in Cave and howwe applies and maybe where he trained in
the Middle, she trained in theMiddle, in the different countries, and
how it all kind of comes togetherand a whole other type of style of
cooking right right, it's I mean, I just I think it's exciting.
(15:03):
And when we were writing the books, that was a kind of thing that
we were interested in. We wantedto not write the same book of Southern
tropes that just get renewed in everybook. As you said, fried chicken,
barbecue, those are wonderful things andthere's no reason not to eat them,
(15:24):
but you can find so many booksthat have those things in them.
We were looking to say, hmmm, how can you know, can we
use these ingredients that are in theSouth and the spices and herbs and techniques
from everywhere to to really talk aboutwhat people can eat today. Now,
(15:46):
we want to also give a shoutout to your co author, Matty Hayes.
That's right, sofab cookbook and it'sLSU Press, you say, and
I think the Fox interview we werewatching that and you just refer this as
a modern book. You've got recipesthat include, you know, some historical
(16:06):
like Tennessee Williams Kiln Pie and theKentucky Brown, but there's also contemporary as
well. Give us some examples ofthe old and the new. Well,
one of the things that we havein there is a tomato pie. So
tomato pie is certainly not a newidea. People have been eating tomato pie
(16:26):
for a long time. But Ithink that being able to use a food
processor to make the dough and todo some of the things that we can
do today that make it a loteasier than it used to be. Those
new techniques bring something new to therecipe because it means maybe you can do
(16:48):
it more often if you like,you know, if that's one of the
things you really like. And wewere just talking earlier about how it's tomato
season and so you know, yeah, we might eat a tomato sandwich with
lots of mayonnaise and all that sortof thing, which is a really quick
and easy snack to make with atomato. But having a tomato pie is
(17:11):
also not hard. If it's easyto make the dough and pop it in
the oven. So it's definitely Ithink a new it's a new era so
that we have new ideas. Oneof my recipes is in there and deals
with a slaw and I mix mixdifferent kinds of cabbage together very very sinlly
(17:40):
sliced on a mandolin, so thatit's not the kind of coleslaw that you
might have where it's chopped, wherethe cabbage is chopped, but it's all
sinsin and slices, and then throwin other sindy sliced things you can put
in green peas or finley slice radishesand any other kind of thing that you
(18:04):
can kind of make in the samesort of shape as these sinley slice bits
of cabbage, and it makes thiswonderful fresh law. And because of the
way it's cut, it tastes reallycrunchy and it stays crunchy in your mouth,
unlike the cabbage that it gets choppedin a food processor into little pieces.
(18:26):
And so I actually think that thiskind of slaw cut this way is
a throwback and it's not modern,because I think it's modern to throw everything
in the food processor and then justput sauce on it, some kind of
dressing and serve it. But becausethe pieces are so small, they become
(18:48):
really soft, really fast in thedressing, whereas if you make them big
enough, you know, they keeptheir crunch even as they absorb the dressing.
And that's the way you used tomake flaw. And so I kind
of like the idea of going backto an old way of doing it.
It was it called coleslaw like coo l A. Is it supposed to
(19:11):
be cold slaw? And somebody goes, I want some of that coal slaw.
No, it comes from the Germanword coal k o h l,
which means cabbage and and so,and then it's just spelled and a fanatically
for Americans or English speakers as coo l E. And so that's that's
(19:36):
where it comes from. David,you're from the north, Was it slaw?
Cold law? Was coldslaw for metoo in the South. I want
some of that colts law. Ididn't realize that. I didn't realize it
the k o h l, No, I thought it'd be cold. Give
me some of that cold slaw?Yeah, No, nobody spells it with
(19:56):
k o h l. But yeah, I'll be the vegetable, which I
love. David makes slaw, Yeah, I do. I love making.
He likes making slaw. I likemaking to. I made a tomato pot
that made me sit. You don'thave to try the sofab cookbook. That
really thin cut Liz. And itmakes me think that that would make a
great quick pickle to put over uponme as well. Absolutely would, Yeah,
(20:17):
repurpose to. Lately, we've beentaking our old salads. It's my
favorite thing to take old salads,like day old salads and put up at
a blunder and make you know,cold. Yeah, that's like the best
thing ever to do. Everybody listening, take your old salads and we put
it a thunder. We did thatthe other day. We did watermelon,
tomato, feda, arugula and alittle bit of olive oil and it made
(20:37):
a great soup. Oh it soundsterrific. Absolutely yeah. And you put
all the dressing at the bottom ofthe bowl and everything in that. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. We're into cold soups
right now. Do you have anycold cold soups in the in the cook
book? I don't believe. Iactually don't don't believe that we do,
but I I really I'm a fanof of coal foods. I think that's
(21:03):
they're they're really really good. Ihad one once in Spain that was made
with green olives and and oh thatwas unbelievably wonderful. And in the South
and southern Spain you get that wonderfulwhite almond g spash. Oh my god,
it's to die for. I mean, unbelievable. Dad, My dad
(21:25):
used to love you know, vshe swashed so thick, you know,
the spoon would stand up. Ohgod, yeah, that's amazing. Kind
of just eating coal mashed potatoes,that sounds great. Yeah, Well,
I took that overly Dowe peach Cobbermade last week and it ended up being
(21:47):
great breakfast food. I put morepeaches in it and just became biscuits and
peaches and it was Actually that soundsgood. Sometimes leftovers are better than the
do over. Leftovers are sometimes betterthan the orige dish. So you also
have a lot of guest recipes,right. Who are some of the contributors
who gave provided recipes for the Soafabcookbook. Well, Brennan's Restaurant provided the
(22:11):
Banana Faster recipe, which is reallyexciting because you feel that it's important that
it comes from the source and wehave lots and lots of just people who
are friends of ours who contributed recipes. We tried really hard not to make
it or let it be chef heavy, because we didn't want it to feel
(22:36):
like it was hard to do andonly a chef can do this, or
you need to have special equipment inorder to make it work this way.
So it's mostly home cooks, Andthat's kind of because I think that very
much in the South, the foodat home is what we consider real Southern
food. It's one of those thingslike in New Orleans, you don't say
(23:03):
where can I get the best gumbo? In New Orleans meeting who makes which
restaurant makes the best gumbo? You'reasking is it your mom or your aunt's
or your grandmother who makes the bestgumbo? Because nobody's going to say,
oh, go to this restaurant forgumbo. They're going to tell you some
family member who makes the best gumbo. A good point. That's a really
(23:26):
good point and well taken. Althoughyou know, so I I was reading
you, so you have to tipat the top Ticnic of the Tongue podcast.
But you also have a blog andyou're starting a little book on your
sub stack about a personality and you'reactually trying to figure out who this I've
(23:48):
read read it this morning, andtrying to figure out who this person is.
But you talk about in Lafayette,it's known for Lafayette, Louisianne is
known for the dark gumbo, right, which I happen to love. Yeah,
I love it too. And youknow, when you have the strong
flavors that Lafayette has, if you'reusing on dewey or you're having duck or
(24:10):
something like that in your gumbo,you really need to balance that with something
really dark, like a dark room. And in New Orleans we have a
brighter gumbo, and if you're puttingcrab or shrimp in your gumbo, you
don't want to overpower those wonderful,delicate flavors with a dark dark room.
(24:32):
And I think a lot of peopledon't understand the difference and why we sometimes
don't even put a root and somewhereor other, and I don't know where
it came from. People said,first, you make a room, as
though that was a rule, andyou don't always make a room. And
certainly, looking at nineteenth century recipes, you can find many many gumbos with
(24:56):
no room at all. And itused to be that we said that there
were three different kinds of thickeners forgumbo, one representing each of the continents
that have influenced gumbo. One isrue and that came from Europe. One
is okra and that came from Africa. And one is file and that came
(25:19):
from America. And certainly the NativeAmericans were eating sickened stews with that were
sickened with gumbo, I mean,with fele, long before any Europeans came
here. And so we really dohave three thickeners, and each of the
thickeners has its own flavor. Ruhas a flavor, you know. We
(25:42):
don't have rue the way you mightmake a bechamel and just cook it long
enough so it doesn't taste like rawflour and then you mix in your bilk
and cheese or whatever you're going toput in it. We darken that roo
and toast the flower so that itactually has a flavor, and okra has
(26:03):
a flavor, and pile has aflavor. So our sickeners actually add flavor.
And so it's important to know whichflavor you want, and sometimes Rue
is the wrong one. So forour fabulous global listeners, who probably a
huh, I'm you explain with pheleis because it's not like a vegetable Okra
(26:29):
people can identify with, right,but how would you describe feel as they
can with a flower. Fele Ismade from dried sassafras leaves and do you
dry the leaves and then you grindthem up or pound them to make them
into a powder. And sassafras isnative to the Americas and no one had
(26:52):
ever seen it before the Europeans,no one from Europe had ever seen it
before, and it was a newIt was basically a new spice. I've
always said that if people were fromEurope were looking for new spices, here
was cile right in front of them, and they never saw it as a
(27:15):
spice that could have been added toall the other spices that we eat in
different cultures. And I think it'sit's an underutilized spice. Yeah. Most
people notice sassafras tea that's made withroots. Yeah, that's made with the
(27:37):
root of the sassafras tree, orthey make groop beer with it or something
like that. Yeah, But theroots and the leaves were used. The
leaves made sele interesting. Yeah,sassafras and root beer. You know,
there used a bit the sassafras candy. Oh, I like Sasa fresh camember
Sa fras candy. You could getit like Gatlinburg. Yes, that's parilla
(28:03):
also a thing. So this isthe twentieth anniversary. You've got some big
plans all year one that's kind ofcoming up. And this is an evergreen
you know, but we'll talk aboutit in general. There's this big exhibit
on coffee. I don't think alot of people around the world realize the
incredibly deep relationship New Orleans has withcoffee. So let's talk about that a
little bit. And National Coffee Ibelieve or not. I just learned because
(28:26):
I got a pitch is August,how timely, So we're going to be
opening this exhibit actually next week,and it's called the Natural Port, a
look at New Orleans Coffee Culture,and it is based on the idea that
(28:48):
coffee has been coming into the Portof New Orleans since the eighteenth century.
So Europeans brought coffee first to theCaribbean Islands, then to Central America,
and then to the northern part ofSouth America. And every time they began
to import it into the United States. They did it through the Port of
(29:11):
New Orleans, which they called thenatural port. It's natural to just take
things in through the Port of NewOrleans and then it would go upriver to
various places in the United States.So New Orleans has been importing coffee for
three centuries during in some part ofthree centuries, and we have still in
(29:37):
the city companies that are family ownedcompanies that have been around since that time.
So the New Orleans used to importgreen coffee, and then some of
the green coffee would be shipped greento other places. So I know that
New Orleans used to ship green coffeeto Maxwell House when Maxwell House was actually
(30:02):
originally just a hotel, and sothey became famous for their roast and the
coffee that they that they served there. But they would get their coffee green
from the ports from the Port ofNew Orleans. You know, that's interesting
because Folgers, which is from SanFrancisco and very famous obviously it's in every
(30:25):
grocery store, actually moved their operationsto New Orleans because they wanted to be
closer to the green coffee that wascoming in through here. That's right.
They closed their facility in Kansas Cityand moved into New Orleans. Now it's
it's huge. Plus they do copacking. I mean it's a it's a
big operation. And I love itwhen you're driving on the Expressway just when
(30:48):
they're roasting and you can just beoverwhelmed by the aroma. Yeah, it's
kind of fun. So what isthe relationship with the New Orleans and the
chickery coffee which is so unique asI think it's very just unique to New
Orleans. Yeah, I think it'ssomething that mostly is just drunk in New
Orleans today. But in France therewere some periods when in one dispute or
(31:15):
another with England or someplace, theyhad trouble getting coffee. Plus the people
of France during those early days werenot as wealthy as say people in England
or the Netherlands or in Spain.So chickory grows wild in France, and
(31:36):
so people would dig up the chickeryroot and they would toast it and then
grind it and mix it with theircoffee to extend the coffee. So there
was about a third coffee, Imean a third chickory and two thirds coffee.
So they were saving a third ontheir coffee. Expenditures by using chickory.
(31:57):
So then they brought that practice withthem to New Orleans when they came
in seventeen eighteen and founded the city. They were actually here before that,
but when they founded the city andpeople and they were actually having to import
chickory so that they could keep upthe practice. Because people grew to like
(32:22):
the flavor. And so it's thesort of thing where you drank it as
a child. You've had this lusciouscoffee and chickory with cream or milk in
the morning, and those bowls thatyou would hold with two hands, and
that was a flavor. And soyou might have pure coffee at night in
your demitas, but this was thepractice that you had coffee and chicory,
(32:49):
and they thought of it as anotherflavor. So just as mocha or something
is not delterated coffee, it isits own flavor, a mixture of coffee
and and chocolate. Coffee and chickeryto them was its own flavor. So
we grew to like the flavor.Now. It's also said that during the
(33:10):
Civil War, where it was hardfor the South to get coffee, it
was extended with the practice of addingchickery. But for them. This was
a substitute. This wasn't like,Oh, I really like coffee and chicory,
so that's what I'm going to choose. They were doing it as second
(33:32):
best, so as soon as theywere able to go back to coffee and
no chickory, they did. ButNew Orleans never lost its flavor, its
taste for coffee and chickory, neverthinking of it as second best. They
thought of it. I think ofit as its own flavor, and so
(33:52):
I have coffee and chicory in themorning every morning. And yet if I
searched demitanos after dinner or something,it's likely to be pure coffee, just
because that was that was the wayI grew up. So it's just habit,
you know. Chickory is also amedicinal medicinal product weed or baceous herb
(34:16):
that has some help with digestive issues, although it can go to the other
end of digestive and laxative too,but a lot of in ancient times.
That's how it was consumed as amedicinal plant as well, which could also
have some old wives tail type tiesto it if you dig deep into the
connection between food and medicine over time, So it's pretty interesting looking forward to
(34:38):
going to that exhibit. David lovescoffee. I never drank coffee really until
David came into my life because mymom and dad. Oh god, my
mother didn't drink anything but milk,and my dad drank instant coffee. Maxwell
houses the coffee. Oh god.Yeah, I grew up in a I
grew up in a box meal.My family drank maxim Oh god, that's
(34:59):
a my mother. My mother's acoffee fanatic and she loves all fabulous coffees
and whatnot. But my dad drankmaximum everything. David makes me coffee.
Really. I like my coffee.David knows. I have to have it
black with turmeric, cinnamon, andwhat's the ginger, and that my little
herbs in it, I mean,so spices in it, and it's like
so good. I've cut out themilk to produce my dairy because I do
(35:21):
love a good cafe. I doMond cafe. Oh my god, it's
so good. You know. Funnygrowing up in the Northeast, and you
know, it's all over the placenow, but there was chickery on the
side of the roads and then allthe fields and I never even thought of
it. Salad he picks up andput them in a vase, and that
was it. I never realized itwas the same chickery. Be careful what
you pick for Right now, there'sall these mushrooms growing in our and all
(35:43):
the yards in our neighborhood, andI'm convinced ser poises. Yeah, well
you definitely don't want to pick upthe odd mushroom out of your yard.
That would be Now, this isa fun This is a fun upcoming event
celebration the hundred twenty fifth anniversary ofOyster's Rockefeller. So what's gonna happen.
(36:04):
Well, so there's going to bea contest and the folks at Anton's are
going to be the judges. Sothey are going to be several categories,
but one category is sort of yourtwist on oster Rockefeller as well as you
know, who can make the bestpure oysters Rockefeller without actually knowing all of
(36:28):
the secret ingredients. Yeah, soI think it's going to be a whole
lot of fun. There's going tobe a lot of grilled oysters to be
had that that day. Everybody's goingto be able to taste them, and
they'll be another category of where peoplewill be able to choose the people's choice
(36:50):
also, so there'll be lots andlots of fun things happening on that day.
So who are the contestants? Arethey professionals? Are regular people who
like to com cooks? No,it's going to be restaurants. I mean,
you will be able to You stillcan participate, but we're really asking
restaurants to to do it because theyprobably have the equipment and whatever in order
(37:12):
to make it happen, whereas professI mean home cooks probably need to be
in their home kitchen in order tomake it. Oh, I love me
a good boy. I love welove oysters, and I like personally,
I like a raw but a grilledoyster can be a broiled oyster unbelievable,
particularly when they're big, fat,plumpy oysters unbelievable. Yep, yep,
(37:35):
I'm I'm a big fan. Ireally like them, and I like them
hot. That's why Oyster Pope Boyis one of my absolute favorites. And
I actually was lucky enough to eata bun me that was what I considered
an absolute mish match of South Louisianaand Vietnam. It was abund me made
(38:00):
with foie gras and fried oysters.It was where did you have that at
Dan Song? H Really, we'llhave to go back out there. We've
been there wines and it's you know, it is quite the drive and once
and it was eight o'clock in themorning, so they were they only had
the bakery open, they didn't actuallyhave the restaurant open yet. So yeah,
(38:22):
yeah, yeah, I'd like toget there. Though. It is
definitely a hide, yes, andit wasn't special. It wasn't something that's
always on their menu. So I'maware of that. Because it's not there,
you're not going to, you know, run out and get some fa
for you. Even though it wasreally good. It's an interesting place.
(38:45):
We really enjoyed our little visit there. If I'm going to go into the
restaurant, I never passed so manytire places on the way out. It's
just an interesting drive that we did. Henru going back to Tennessee, but
we want to go there, andapparently they have one of the most coveted
kingk in the city. They do, They absolutely do, and it's probably
as close to a traditional old fashionedking cake that I remember from when I
(39:08):
was a kid that you're going tofind in the city. It's it's a
little bit. It's it's not thesame kind of recipe that Mackenzie's would have
had because I think they put riceflour in their in their recipe. But
oh it was. It was reallyreally it's really good and it has a
(39:31):
lightness and a slight cinema neeness thatI remember from when I was a child,
and it's not I mean, theymake a stuffed one, but you
don't have to get something that's stuffedwith every other kind of sweetness in the
world. Yeah, we noticed alot of weird king cakes, you and
(39:52):
I have done. I've done aninterview with you about king Cakes for I
think it was Sante magazine and therethey're like everybody has a rift now on
it. But we like them lightand not too sugary. You grew up
in the Lake Food area of NewOrleans, where we happened to be living.
What are some of your food memoriesof places you used to go and
are any of them still in business? Actually, there really aren't any that
(40:16):
are still in business, which isreally disappointing. But I remember going crabbing
at the lake Front. We goto the to the steps that go down
and throw crab crab nets into thewater and pull them out, and we
(40:38):
catch crabs. You'd go with abasket, a bushel basket or whatever and
fill it up with crabs and gohome. It was. It was a
different time and lake you did notlook the way it looks now. It
was not nearly that developed. Therewere lots and lots of empty lots and
uh they were usually not very wellended, so they'd be overgrown with two
(41:04):
berries and blackberries, and you couldgo with a bucket and just in your
neighborhood pick all these berries. Itwas just it was a different place than
it is now now you it soundskind of dreamy. I remember going when
I was ten out to concentrate intoone of those crab shacks and stay all
blew away. I think it wasincredible. Yeah, oh yeah, they
(41:27):
were wonderful, like Fitzgerald's and placeslike that. I think it was Fitzgerald.
Now you live in another historial.What neighborhood in New Orleans is in
his story? You live in challMatt. Why don't you tell our listeners
why they should come visit with chalMatt, Because you know, people come
to New Orleans, they never leave, like two neighborhoods, So we're trying
to get to move beyond those twoneighborhoods. What is it about chal Matte
(41:49):
that would draw visitors, Well,there's there's several things in chal Matte and
Saint Bernard Parish. One is thatthe original oldest Asian settlement in the United
States is in Saint Bernarc Parish.It was called San Malo, and it
(42:10):
was populated by people who jumped shipfrom Spanish galleons from the Philippines who had
been basically shanghaied into working on theseships. And as New Orleans, the
Port of New Orleans and the wholearea along the coast would be traversed by
(42:35):
the galleons. You would see allthese little islands, and the people on
the boats would jump ship because theyfelt, oh, that looks like the
Philippines, and they would jump shipand they'd just feel totally at home,
and the Spanish people on the boatwere afraid to go after them, so
they just escaped. And so theycreated the settlements, and they began doing
(43:00):
what they had been doing in thePhilippines, which was catch and dry shrimp
salt and let them dry. Andso those packages of salted dried shrimp that
you see everywhere that people used toseason their food. That came from the
Filipinos who created the settlement of SanMala. So that's here in Saint Bernard.
(43:24):
And also in Saint Bernard we havemany many places where you can go
deep sea fishing and that's really fun. And there are sugar plantations and all
kinds of things. And of courseour research center is here in Shelmut.
(43:45):
So people now, can anyone cometo the research center and what will they
find? Anyone can come and thenwe'll find many, many books. We
have a huge collection of ephemera thatis all related to food drink, everything
from swizzle stix to paper cocktail napkins. And we have also some really old
(44:13):
old books. And the books arenot all cookbooks. People come and they
say, oh, these aren't cookbooks. We have books about everything that is
related to food and drinks. Soit can be historical, it can be
biographies of famous chefs, it canbe cookbooks, it can be the history
of bourbon and how to make beer. We have books about foraging, books
(44:34):
about nutrition, books about the economicsof food, about agriculture policy, books,
all kinds of books about food.So people will just be amazed at
what kind of resources there are.And then one of your goals when you're
thinking about the the future, becauseyou've stepped you know, you've kind of
(44:57):
changed your own role with SOFAB isto do more with the research center,
make it more accessible for students andlet people know that there is such a
wealth of information there. That's reallytrue, and we have been really fortunate
that is getting out. We've hadpeople come as some as far away as
Australia to do research here and sowe've been really excited to see that people
(45:23):
have come and been able to useit and find that they had things that
they hadn't found anywhere else except hereon the shelves. So that was exciting.
That's been exciting. We'll have togo out and pay it a visit.
As we talk about chall Matt,we need to go. You know,
we'd be remiss if we didn't talkabout another wonderful reason New Orleans was
(45:45):
a successful port bringing in booze andcocktails, and with Tails of the Cocktail
coming up, we want to underscorethat the SOFAB is also the home to
the Museum of the American Cocktail.That's right, that's right. And of
course New Orleans was always a citywhere there was a lot of smuggling,
(46:06):
and so we had practice in smuggling. We already had big warehouses in the
swamps and things where things went.During Prohibition, for example, they just
were just reopened and lots and lotsof things would come in through the port
or through the alternate port openings touh, to make it possible to have
(46:30):
some actually good good drinks and goodbeer and good good spirits, uh to
drink, and not just kind ofnasty stuff that people made. Yeah,
for anyone coming, there's a wholeyou know, there's some wonder The Southern
Food and Beverage Museum is fabulous becausethere's so much history beyond Louisiana. I
(46:54):
mean, it's the entire Southern States, which are there are a lot of
Southern states, and then the regionswithin them. It's like it's like wine
and Ava's. You know, there'sso many sub areas, whether it's East
Texas, West Texas, East Tennessee, West Tennessee, East North, you
know, on and on and on, and then you've got this inside the
Museum of American Cocktail, which youcould get lost in as well. There's
(47:16):
also a cooking school and children's programs. What do you have in the works
around all of that for the twentiethWell, the kids programs have all been
really reformed and revamped. So we'rehaving camp right now and it's an all
(47:37):
day camp now and not just ahalf day camp, which is really really
fun and I think it's easier forparents too. And we have also a
gumbo garden where we actually have takenthe museum outside and we grow in various
(47:58):
raised beds. We have an Europeraised bed, a Africa raised bed,
and an America raised bed, andduring the different seasons we grow plants that
came from those places that are inuse in America now in the South to
(48:19):
you know, be the food ofthe South. And most people don't know
that we brought sesame seeds from Africa, or that okra came from Africa,
or sorghum came from Africa. Andthere are other things too, but rice,
for example, was brought to usthrough the Africans, and you know,
(48:40):
rice is really important to the South, and people just forget about where
it comes from. Well, yougo to North Carolina, you go to
the Carolinas, and they drive ithome and it's it's so important. So
congratulations on achieving a milestone. Andof course there's more, and you've got
(49:01):
a lot going on because you're goingto be focusing on doing a lot of
writing. And I'm kind of excitedto follow this little story that you're started
on Tip of the Tongue. It'sactually encouraged me, Liz, to do
that with the story I want towrite, because, as you know,
writing is a discipline and the moreyou can do to get people to encourage
(49:22):
you, the better. Where canour listeners find and follow you as we
wrap this show up? Well,the substat it's on substack and it is
partly free and partly membership, butour subscription. But it's called Tip of
the Tongue and if you go onto substack and put in Tip of the
(49:44):
Tongue, it just comes up.But the podcast is free and you can
listen to it anywhere you listen topodcasts. There's an RSSV that goes to
any of the normal places like Spotifyand whatever where people can listen to podcasts.
Don't have to listen to it onsubstack. And so I write a
(50:07):
column once a month and the Noladot com so if those people who are
looking for recipes, and also Iwrite for Louisiana Life magazine, if they
want recipes from me, those arethe places to find them. And of
course you can get the book onall your normal book purchasing channels of Southern
(50:27):
Food and Beverage Museum Cookbooks. Socongratulations and thank you for joining us.
I'm sure we'll see you soon inthe circles and probably the Tales of the
Cocktail. Yes, I'll definitely bethere. Yeah, well, fans,
Williams, thank you for joining us. It's always great. I hope everybody's
enjoying this. Come to New Orleans. Go check out the Southern Food and
(50:49):
Beverage Museum and the Museum of AmericanCocktails. Visit Shell Matt Visit visit neighborhoods
beyond the French Quarter. We lovethe French Quarter, but this is a
big city filled with amazing history anddelicious food and natural beauty, and you
know we love it. We choseto live here. So our message to
all of you, of course,as we wrap this up. Besides,
please follow us on the Connected tabledot com and listen to all our shows
(51:13):
on your preferred podcast channel on anyof them really is to say and say
she'd be curious. Thank you,
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