November 1, 2023 • 53 mins
Philippe Pascal traded a successful corporate career in fine wines and luxury goods working in successive CEO positions for Seagram and LVMH to work full time as a vigneron in Bourgogne. He and wife, Catherine, own Domaine du Cellier aux Moines, a nine-centuries- old wine estate in the Côte Chalonnaise which they have restored. In 2020, the Pascal family and Winemaker, Guillame Marko, established Domaine Mont Bessay to make cru Beaujolais wines. Pascal is a recipient of France’s Legion d'Honneur.
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(00:01):
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(00:22):
FOURCY Radio. Welcome to the ConnectedTable Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
(00:44):
Young and David Ransom. You're insatiablycurious culinary couple. We enjoy bringing you
the dynamic people who are front andcenter and behind the scenes in wine,
food, spirits and hospitality around theworld. We enjoy travel and meeting them
and sharing their stories with you andthe wines they produced, in this case,
(01:07):
with our guests today. This isour guest today has an amazing career,
a long and impressive career in thewine fine wine industry. He is
from France and his resume just listenedto these companies so PEXA Seagram, LVMH,
LVMH and at LVMH he did workwith many luxury brands, not just
(01:34):
fine wine, but also Krug Champagne. He helped with the acquisition of Bulgary.
So really, this gentleman is anexpert in luxury wines and products and
marketing them to the world. We'retalking with Philippe Pascal. Interestingly, he
left the corporate world to focus onbecoming a vegnoron. Now think about that,
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you had this amazing corporate career forlike decades. You receive Francis Lejeon
do'nour, the Legion of Honor,which is the highest honor you could rest
on your laurels and your corporate I'mdone. He still counsels the head of
LVMH, bernardo' know, but hedecided to dick his hands on the dirt
and focus on his winery. Andit's in Burgundy, and he actually has
(02:21):
two. Now he is joining usfrom his a winery in Burgundy, domain
Ducelier Amint. We have some winesin front of us. He also is
doing work producing beautiful wines in Beaujolais, and it's in the Coat Chalonnaise,
which is an interesting area we havenot been yet. So we're going to
talk about that and talk about hisillustrious career. Felipe Pascal, Welcome to
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the Connected Table. Happy to bewith you, Millennium. David, Well,
we're thrilled to have you join ustoday, Philly. You know,
I want to take a little bitof a dive back into your past and
talk about growing up, where yougrew up in France, and what got
you started in business, and someof the jobs that you did before you
(03:08):
got into wine, which was obviouslyfairly late in your career, but you
obviously had a full career before that. So let's highlight a couple of things
that we mentioned earlier that you thatyou've done in your life before that.
Yes, so you want me tostart with my early life as a kid,
(03:30):
Well, I think we'll start there, because that's a long career.
From what we understand. You actuallygrew up in a family in the textile
business, not in the wine business. Yes, my father was my grandfather
aware in the textile business, whichin France was a struggling industry in the
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beginning of the twentieth century and midtwentieth century, and the family business went
bankrupt so had to take a positionin a company who bought out the family
business. And I grew up therevery happily as the oldest of four kids.
And I vividly remember my first memorieswith wine. You know, when
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we grew up, we were allowedwith my brother and sister two, although
we were still kids, to tastea bit of wine on the Sunday if
we had if we had got goodcalles at at school, and that was
one tens of wine and nine tenthsof water, and so it was.
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It was a very pale beverage,but it had that taste of wine.
And that's really four years. Iwas happy to have my my my water
cut with a bit of red wine. And I was feeling like a grown
up guy. And then the thethe I decided I was fascinated by nature.
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I was not fascinated by the industry. I wanted to do my career
and spend my life in nature working. I was attracted by the by the
by agriculture and by farming. SoI did my for for university. I
went to the agricultural school to geta master in agronomy and that's what I
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studied. And while I was atthe university, I met my wife.
She was studying law, and myuniversity was in Dijon, and Dijon which
is in Burgundy famous for its mustad, among other things, and the cassis.
And I met my wife Katherine atthat and she was from Bone,
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and you know, members of herfamily were in the wine business, and
she took me to visit some ofhis friends and some of his parents' friends.
So in a way I got somevery nice introduction tasting some very serious
wines. I knew nothing about thiswine, but you know where she contributed
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to my education, and this wasfun. I fell in love with her,
but I also fell in love withBurgundy. And we said to each
other at the time when we decidedto partner for life, we said,
I mean, one day, oneday we we will be making our own
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wine in Burgundy. And this wassounding like a ridiculous promise or a crazy
dream, because we had no nostake at all in Vignyalls. Our families
did an own vineyards, and anyway, we had plan also to develop our
(07:08):
own carrie on our own life awayfrom viticulture. But this is something we
told each other when we when wemet and when we fell in love,
that we say, okay, oneday we'll make our wine. So in
fact, it took us probably morethan thirty years to come back to our
original dream. I love that,that's a dream. And you grew up,
(07:32):
to be specific, in sant Etienne, which is in southwest of Leone.
It was known for its textiles inits day as a manufacturing and I
love lyone. By the way,it's so wonderful. But it's wonderful that
you and Catherine married and formed adream. How long have you two been
married. We married in seventy seven, so you know that's forty six.
(07:57):
Congratulations, Thanks, congratulations. Sohere's what we're curious about. You studied
agronomy, and you were interested ineven though you grew up in a manufacturing
city, you were interested in agriculture, agronomy. What brought you to Africa
where you actually served in the Frenchgovernment in Africa for a number of years.
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We found that fascinating. Yes,in fact, since I graduated in
agronomy, we have that system inFrance. We had that system in France
like you have in the US,a kind of piscope organization, and rather
than serving in the army, Icould serve a bit longer in a country.
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What we call third world countries.So for me, I was attracted
by this, and Katherine as well. She was excited by that ivy that
we could serve for a couple ofyears in a country where we could eventually
contribute to to the local people andto the local agriculture. And so we
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went to a country which was aformer Portuguese colony, very called Guinea Bissau,
very south of Senegal, north ofIvoya coast, and very poor country
which had been literally destroyed by theindependence war for seven eight years. So
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the country was in very poor condition. The people were not starving because the
weather was allowing them to grow theirfood, but people were suffering a lot,
and we were there to help themrestructure a bit their agriculture. And
it has been a fascinating human experience. On the technical side, you know,
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it was it was very primitive,It was very difficult. It was
I mean, we we had electricityonce a week. We we had running
water from time to time, butnot every day. So so it was
a kind of very uncomfortable and challengingmission. But on the human side,
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it was absolutely fulfilling because you know, you were helping people who were very
grateful and very eager to learn fromyou. But on the other hand,
you may have done you may havedone some beautiful uh universities and learned a
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lot, but you realize that youknow nothing when when you when you're facing
their situation. So in fact,it was a kind of win win situation
where we were helping them to surviveand they were helping us to to understand
what is uh what is a verychallenging situation. So in a way this
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was I think I learned more fromthem and from from from there, from
their living condition that I could possiblyhave helped them. But on the other
hand, they were happy that wewere there, bringing, bringing tools,
bringing food, bringing medicine, bringingsome advice on on on cultivation techniques,
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but a great experience, fastaining experience, a far cry from luxury luxury goods,
I suppose, was kind of yournext top on your on the train
journey of your life for many manyyears. Because when you have learned to
survive in these kind of difficult conditions, I think you're you're you're in a
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good shape. Then to learn otherthings and and and to give two set
priorities in your life. So wereferenced the many notable companies that you served
Seagram, you were a CEO ofBarton, Gustier and Bordeaux, and then
CEO of Mom and Perry's Uet Champagne, and then you join in LVMH and
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you over saw the acquisition of severalluxury brands and wine and fashion. We
mentioned Crew, we mentioned Bulgary,and you really had the ear of CEO
and Bernard Arnaut. I mean,it's amazing, this vast career considering how
large and impactful that company is today. You know, luxury goods and marketing
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have appeal. They seem to havea timeless appeal even in economic ups and
downs. We're wondering what your thoughtsare on that, and especially visa v
Wine because now you're making wine ina very special area of Burgundy. Well
Burgundy in general is considered, youknow, like the Golden Ring of wines,
along with Bordeaux. What is itabout these products and luxury that just
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seems to you know, no matterwhat's going on, are still buying and
warning. I think the key,I mean the key to succeed in the
luxury industry or in the wine industryas well, which have some serious similarities,
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is the quality if the quality isthere. If then I would not
say this is easy, because qualityis a discipline that you need to exercise
in every step of your activity,from the creation to the product, from
the sourcing of the raw material tothe creation of the product, to the
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wine making, to the advance tothe to the service to the customer.
But the key is is a kindof endless quest for excellence, for quality
and making sure that you never forgetthat you will fail if if there is
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a shortcut on quality or if thereis something missing. But before jumping to
luxury, you know things. Asas we are talking, I want to
tell you what has been also oneof my greatest learning experience in life and
probably the reason why I I alsowas able to succeed in luxury. After
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Africa, I had the chance towork for so PEXA and for which was
called Food and Wine from France atthe time uh and I was appointed to
take charge of the of the USand the US market in the we were
in the very early eighties was wasbooming for for French wines period, French
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food, French chefs, so therewas there was an amazing trend on this
and my big chance has been thatI've been able to work very closely with
American professional at the time, anda few things which we are fascinating for
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me. First, in America,regardless of your age, as long as
you wish to work hard, you'reable to work closely with amazing people,
very talented people much more senior thanyou are, and there is no barrier,
there is no frontier. And Iwas, to me, the greatest
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chance was to be able to meetsome great professionals in the US, were
very successful importers, retailers, chefs, people in marketing and advertising. You
know, I was, I wasa young kid. I mean I was,
I was not even thirty years old. And I was able to meet
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some of the great greatest genius inadvertising in America. You know, people
like Bill Burnback or George Lewis orBill Tregos, which were leading three of
the leading agencies in New York.And these guys were genius. And I
was having coffee at seven o'clock inthe morning in the office, having a
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chat, and I was the youngFrench guy. They liked me and they
were opening their science to me.And I was able to work very I
mean to learn a lot from allthese American creative people. On the other
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hands, I was also very happy, too, very lucky to meet people
at Seagram like you. I'm sureyou remember one of the legends of Seagram,
mister Absimon ab Simon, was thechairman of Seagram Chateauna Estate, importing
the finest wine from France. AndI was like my grandfather. I mean,
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he he liked what I was doing. He was telling me that I
was useful for the industry, whichwas very kind of him. And he
gave me some wonderful advice, introducedme to wonderful people who are still running
big companies today in the US.And and I learned, you know,
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with all these American legends, Ilearned a lot. And I learned also
to be efficient. The key wasbe efficient in what you do. And
I think this is the American wayof doing things, which I learned from
you guys. And I think thishelped me a lot to succeed in my
(17:53):
corporate career. After I was thebest advice I knew. I knew edgars,
I knew a lot of the peopleare past me across actually because I
was living in New York in theeighties, and that really was the great
culinary revolution. It was the Americanculinary revolution, but everybody liked France.
What was the best advice I gaveyou? You know, he was first.
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He was someone extremely generous, extremelydemanding, but extremely generous. And
I remember I went with him visitingsome important restaurantors in so many years and
what he I mean, I thinkhe teached me how you can be kind
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and demanding because he was someone extremelykind to people, to his customers and
to his teams as well. Buthe was raised. He had very high
standout in terms of ethics and execution. So you can be in your professional
life, you can be very demanding, but you can be also extremely kind
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to people, respect people. Imean, besides the fact that you need
to know your product, you needto know your industry, you need you
need to master or a number ofcompetencies. But yes, you can be
a gentleman and you can be demanding. That was absigmon. You really work
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with some of the great philip It'spretty amazing in that time in the United
States. I'm sure was very valuablewhen you went back to France, and
because you had a lot of intelligence, because everybody wants to try to figure
out how to market to the UnitedStates. They still do it the major
most important export market, and eventoday we get it asked all the time,
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even even today. And and infact this is Absigmon who proposed me
after years of Spixar. He proposedme to join a Ciagram first to run
a BNG battle and they wanted tohave I think they wanted to have a
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management whom they can trust as wellas someone who ideally would be French.
So I was in a way,I was clicking the different cars as we
say, I mean I was French. They knew me, and they first
trusted me enough to ask me toto to run one of their companies,
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and and then it went. Theythey were so happy with the job I
did in Bordo that they told methat Philip, we we need your help
in champagne. And I was dreamingof running a champagne company at that time.
So they asked me to to runa movement persuet. And again you
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know, was was pushing me onon on this and I was. I
was really thrilled by taking the helmof these two champagne houses after I after
a few years, as you know, Seagram went through some re engineering they
focused on wine and spirit diminished.They went into media entertainment, orange juice,
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whatever, and I felt the companywas losing focus and at this time
was has been calling me to tojoin the LVMH table, which at the
time was much smaller, and obviouslyI was tempted and I joined him to
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run a verve clicko and we hadI remember, my experience in the US
helped me trem endlessly to understand themarket and to succeed with a great team
on a birth including the lady whowas running our business in the US,
Mira Giuliano, which was really atremendous asset for for for the group.
(22:18):
She's a force. We interviewed herthe first year of the show. She
is a total force. And youknow, just to think about when you
join LVMH, where it was andwhere it is now, and it's a
world leader in luxury goods and finewines and spirits and it just keeps going
and going and going. I mean, reading the recent Wine Spectator article,
I was like, well, youknow, dream dream, but then you
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retired, but you didn't really retire, right, Yeah, you know,
we had uh first before retiring.We were we were able with my wife
to h to spot a small estatein Burgundy which needed a lot of love
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and care, and we said,we said ourself, okay, this is
an opportunity for us to maybe toleave our dream, but to leave it
on the side, as I wasa weekend wine maker and a weekend farmer.
But then after a few years,we realized that if we wanted to
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do things the right way, weneeded more time. We also found out
that maybe maybe by comparing what Iwas doing on the corporate side and comparing
that I had to do what Ihad, which I had to learn as
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a new Viney Rome. Putting thingsin perspective, I said, maybe it's
better to focus on my viney homemission now when I still have some energy
at fifty four. Yea, yeah, I was fifty four, and we
say, okay, maybe maybe weshould focus on that. And after all,
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I had the best years of thecorporate world, you know, growing
up with Seagram and then twenty yearswith fascinating years with the LVMH. After
all we had our best years,and maybe I should use my energy now
on our small family project. SoI had the opportunity to retire, as
(24:27):
we say, and it was itwas it was a good time because we
still had the energy and and becausebeing a vin your own you need you
need a lot of energy, notonly I mean mentally, but physically and
(24:48):
altho. So it was it was, it was a good time. The
kids we were had grown up.They were starting their own family in different
parts of the world. Also,we consider that we could we could have
another mission. Uh. And it'swhen you start that it's a bit difficult
(25:12):
at the beginning because you you know, you you were used, you were
used to to have a lot ofhelp, a lot of means, a
lot of support, big teams,a lot of talented people around you.
(25:33):
The logistics were quite easy in thecorporate well if I remember well, and
then you start and we were inour house in Burgundy. We had to
buy our first computer. We hadto do everything by ourselves. I needed
to find a local accountant to helpus, so I had to start again
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with a local banker. So youknow, we we had to do everything
by by ourselves and looking for helphere and there, but without the big,
the big logistical support of a group. So you you wake up in
the morning with a bit of anxietyon what are you going to achieve?
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And you end up the day extremelytired, exhausted because you had a long
day doing so many different things whichare far away from your former management life.
We're smiling because we go through thatall the time, having having had
a worker company and now much smallerbusiness. You know, Philip, it
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kind of sounds like my father's journeywho he was a director of marketing for
IBM for many, many years anddecided to give it all up and go
buy a winery in upstate New York. Really yeah, so, I so
you're milliare with the situation so soso we know your trials and tribulations that
you've been through firsthand, that's forsure. So Philip, the the farm
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that you bought is Domain de sellerAmant, which is in the coach Shalony,
specifically in the town of JV.Why don't you tell us about the
domain and it a little bit ofits history because it actually dates back nine
hundred years nine hundred years soon soonin a few years. The Yeah,
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when when we were looking for aplace with scheduling to start our wine journey,
we were looking in Burgundy. Wewanted to We're always attracted by the
great Tehroirs and the history behind it. And we also were looking for a
(27:53):
place where we would live and youknow, all the family, the kids,
the grandkids, and so the thethe brief for the project was was
a bit ambitious, and after welooked for for many years. We were
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looking around very discreetly, because weneed to be discreet in order to have
a successful hunting. So we lookedaround, we saw a few things,
and we dropped, and then westarted again. And then one day we
we through through a friend, wehad the information that the Celio One,
that all cellar built by the monksalmost nine centuries ago, was for sale,
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together with its vineyards. But boththe vineyards and on the buildings were
in poor shape. But oh god, when we visited at first sight,
we fell in love. We fellin love with the first with the spot,
because the location was absolutely superb.Facing south, remote from the village,
(29:03):
from the city of Jevree, overlookingall the area, we could feel
the history, I mean, allthose nine centuries of history were there,
even if everything was was in badshape, and there was I would say
even a bit more which something morewhich attracted which was the fact that it
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had been run by monks for manycenturies, in fact, seven centuries until
French Revolution. And and we wekind of like that environment, which was
both historical and a bit mystical.We we could, I mean, we
immediately imagine what had been the lifethere in the Middle Age. And there
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was nothing written about the history ofthe place. There was there were little
pieces here and there, but butnothing has been searched really seriously. But
we saw the potential and we say, we love this place. We want
to give it back its former glory. We think it's going to be a
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great place to work in, agreat place to live with a family,
a great place to us to thegrandkids when they will grow up. And
and and that was it. Imean, it took us one hour literally
to decide, without the business plan, without any idea on what we will
be doing. We say, thisis it. There's the vignard, there
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is the house, there is thecellar, there is the history, and
and there is the fact that herethe monks have been working and praying for
so many centuries. So let's let'slet's do that. So we embarked on
this is having done no no,but jet all our forecast and the improved
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to be wrong. We had towork harder and longer than we suppose initially.
But let me tell you it hasbeen a fantastic journey because today the
place is alive and doing well,and I think the place is safe for
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at least the next two or threecenturies. So we feel good about our
mission. Well, it's I lovethe fact that you went from probably doing
lots of swat analysis and corporate lifeto a passion a passionate project with no
plan. Just you wanted to havea winery. I just love that juxtaposition.
You and Catherine acquired domain ducla Onone in two thousand and four,
(31:45):
and in two thousand and eight youand your winemaker Guillo Marco started a fairly
massive replanning project and implemented many changesto transition the winery, bracing biodynamic and
gravity cellaring. How do you feelthis what I just briefly touched on these
(32:05):
initiatives. Share a little bit moreabout that and why you feel this is
so important as you move forward producingyour wines first or on the wine way
side, we quickly realized that theformer cellar built by the monks was not
large enough to make an age winein bold long enough that the you know,
(32:35):
in the Middle Age monks were makingwine. They were great viticulturists.
They were making quickly the wine andselling the wine bulk very quickly. So
there was no aging. And thewine making science at the time was quite
rustic, so the wine way wasnot big enough. It was cold in
the winter, too warm in thesummer, so to age properly wine was
(33:00):
well, it was not proper bytoday's standards. So that's why we came
with that idea of a gravity fedcellar on fall level underground and which which
is helping us now to make farbetter wine. So this is the story
about the cellar and the fact thatwe needed a new tool to work with.
(33:23):
The other thing is that we alsowanted to do things as as clean
and as possible for the environment.And I was, you know, my
background as an agronomist, as ascientist, I was quite familiar with the
(33:44):
role of chemistry, and I knewthe pros and cons of many of the
techniques used in the modern world,and I wanted we wanted to do something
va cling for the environment, aclean for workers, and also very clan
for for our family, and veryclean for the consumer as well. So
(34:08):
I did. I did embark onthat idea of going organic and biodynamic on
the principle very quickly with Katrine.However, in order to do that,
you really need to have a greatteam who shares that vision. And that's
(34:29):
the reason why we ask Gillo Marcoto join us as a viticulturist and a
winemaker who had experienced in organic andbiodynamic and with Guillo we were able to
embark on that the environmental journey,which has been fascinating because we not only
(34:54):
we knew that what we were doingwas good for the environment and and uh
and eventually inspiring some of our youngneighbors, but also we knew that it
was it was helping us to makefar better wines because being organic and biodynamic,
we have to care more for ourvinyls the way it grows. We
(35:16):
are much more into an anticipation modeof cultivation, which help us, I
think, because we anticipate better better. It helped us to grow better grapes
and to make a better wine.So all in all, it has been
a very rewarding journey. You know, a lot of that you drew in
(35:38):
your agronomous experience, but it alsodraws on your luxury goods experience. Because
with luxury goods, because we knowthere's many fakes in the roy of wine
and luxury products and persons, there'sa lot of quality products made for quality
ingredients, whether it's quality fabric,the quality engineering, the quality grapes.
(35:59):
You have to start with that andremain committed to it. And that,
as you know, in all wonderfulproducts, takes a lot of time and
care and detail. You can't makeit. You can't make it unless you
fake it. You can't fake itto make it. In this business,
and particularly when it's fine wines andfind goods, Coach shelonise is kind of
(36:22):
interesting. It's you know, it'sfurther south than the Code door. The
Cote Door is known for these veryexpensive UH premiere and chronic clue wines.
You do have premier clue wines thatyou make outside of Coach Shelons as well.
But what what about this area UHis appealing and why should everyone listening
(36:43):
to the show be thinking about tryingthe wines from this area? And you
can hear some of yours. Sothe first the reason why we gain to
this area, it's because I thinkafter having explored many other opportunities in Court,
(37:05):
Dubon or Denui. It was obviousthat it was out of reach financially.
First there was almost nothing for saleand whatever was coming for sale was
just tragious in terms of price.Then we discovered that beautiful Celiohman spot in
(37:27):
Jevree, and not only we wewere able to afford it because the coals
was more affordable at the time itstill is, but also because that spot
was was really so attractive for thathistorical reason, the monks, the architecture,
(37:47):
the location, et cetera. Comingback to Coches, it's true that
this is a region which is developingvery well, which is still providing some
great values. I mean, ifwe look at price compared to some of
(38:09):
could the Bone or could the NewGrand Crew? For sure, there is
no ground crew in challenges, thereare prob but yes, the the the
price is still affordable. And thereason why it's amazing to to to realize
(38:30):
why that region is a bit farbehind could the Bone and could? You
have to remember we had Felix RRwhich destroyed the vineyards in France at the
end of the nineteenth century and beginningof the twentieth century. So beginning of
(38:57):
twentieth century. You have also WorldWar One, and you have the combination
of philoxera and World War One onthe viticulture, on the wine industry and
in many young men died during WorldWar One and after World War One was
(39:20):
over, so we are in nineteennineteen twenty, there is a lot of
vigneyard to be replanted in Coude,Duble and cout the US. All the
young men who came back from warworked very hard in the in the family
estates to replant and to grow backthe industry which was soon very flourishing in
(39:44):
Cochalonnaise. In fact, there wasa new industry emerging not too far in
a place called lu Croso and MonsaultLemin, which were an area which is
thirty min from Jivree and Mercury,which is a place where there was a
(40:05):
lot of mining industry as well asstill industry. So mining and still was
after World War One, very bigindustry. It was very attractive. It
needed the manpower, it needed theworkforce. So a lot of young men
coming back from World War One,the few, the lucky one we are
(40:28):
coming back from World War one,were attracted to get a job in these
minds or in the big steel manufacturer, and they were making there better living
than being a vigni. So theywere filling their family. And in Kochs
(40:50):
they were really short on manpower toreplant after Filoxea. And what happened that
they replanted mostly the the lower vineyardsclose to the village, and in a
way they neglected some of the slopes, some of the best slopes on which
you add some of the most interestingcrew classified crew. So in a whey,
(41:16):
the viticulture changed. It became aviticultuur more driven on volume I yield.
And here we are talking about WorldWar two and until the nineteen sixty
seventy and that difficulture and culturalness wasreally driven more on the volume and I
(41:40):
yield, I yield in the flatarea rather than on the slope like in
Couldubon and could do so in away that impacted the old economy, the
old business model. And it's notuntil I would say the yeah, the
(42:00):
late seventies early eighty that cultural startedto rediscover its greatest theerroir, and started
to replant the greatest seroa with finepinon noir and fine shandone a bit less
less productive, but higher quality.So I'm just mentioning this because in terms
(42:22):
of geology, in terms of geography, in terms of history, the region,
I mean when it was in theMiddle Age or with the Sisters Monks
until the French Revolution, the culturalwas as prosperous as the could double and
(42:43):
could then. And it's really afterWorld War One and Filix Cera that,
as I mentioned to you, therewas that impact on the region. So
now the region is catching up abit. And not to say that it's
going to reach create surprized, becausethis is not the objective, which was
just to explain why why the dynamicsin the recent dynamics in has been a
(43:07):
bit different than what you what youknow about. And it's really interesting when
we go out, I mean it'sreally when we dine out, finding a
Burgundy is usually out of our pricerange. We had we we had a
wonderful them from a curry recently atben Wy and we've got your You have
some beautiful wines here from domain Udo sele On one. We have in
(43:32):
front of us, the Montaigni andthe Les Dessus. We've already had a
few. We had all from thecity. Yes, you know we had
the we had a beautiful allegote thatwe were sent to try from you as
well, and interesting Melennius. Thosevineyards were planted just after World War Two,
in nineteen forty exactly, and itwas just an It was an amazing
(43:52):
bottle of all. I don't thinkI've had one like it history. We
do want to make sure we includein touch on also your expansion into Boujelat,
because we have moms of time andyou are producing Bouselet clue to be
very specific, which we love.As you know, we had a history
working with Boujelet producers over the years. What why did you decide to expand
(44:16):
into this area and tell us whatyou're producing their mont So first I had
I would say I had a loveaffair with from My from My so pixis
in the US, because we wewere doing a lot with the producers at
the time, all those great characterscoming once. So you're for a big
(44:40):
bouchet At blitz. Sorry, anduh, we we have many friends in
common that were quite instrumental in thesuccess of So. I had that very
good feeling about the region and thepeople. And then I wanted with g
who is my right hand man.Here is a young talented wine maker.
(45:06):
We we I wanted to you know, I always like to work with a
young entrepreneur, and I think myrole at my age also is to help
the new generation to to succeed.So I had that plan with Gillum to
start a new company in which itwould be involved, and we were scouting
(45:30):
around Givre. We said, okay, we need to stay at max at
one hour drive from Givre in ordernot to stretch ourselves to to thin.
So where do you want to makea great right wine? And told me,
you know, I'd love to makea great wine with why don't we
try Bojore. So obviously we wentsouth rather than not because so forget it.
(45:58):
So we were we were lucky tofind again history repeat repeats itself with
gill Home. We spent two yearsvisiting the and one day we found that
slope called Busse in Juliana. Andit happened that a couple of vignos were
(46:21):
retiring and selling their their plots onthat hill, and we were able to
buy at the end four of themto make a bigger plot on that iel
of Busse and to start our ourlove story with Juliana, which is probably
not the most well known crew ofso the we know, the awareness of
(46:45):
Juliana is is behind one of uhand but it's fine. At least we
are starting. We have a missionthere to make Juliana, to put you
know, I on the map.But we we fell in love with the
Tehuan. So there there was nomonks, there was no abbey, there
(47:09):
was no existing building. There wasjust the fact that it was a great
taehoir in Julian r and and wethought that that would be the perfect spot
with again a lot of replanting,building a new celler on top of the
hill. And and and uh ourfirst vintage we made it in what you
(47:37):
would call a garage in California,you know, in the shack. And
that was our first vintage. Butwe were very happy with it, uh
and and we literally did it,you know, with our four hands,
human mind and and and uh andworking at night there when the day was
(48:00):
over in jewry. And today wehave built a cellar which is overlooking the
village of Juliana on the hills ofBoujelais. And we even see the Monblaw
from the winery, which is onehundred miles away, on hundred and twenty
miles away. So it's a beautifullocation, beautiful Trois, and I do
feel that you know the history ofthe states. I do feel that we
(48:27):
can we can really write a newchapter on the crude bouchelais, which are
splendid wines. And in between thetwo wars in I read a lot about
what was happening in Paris and inParis restaurant, the great crude Boujelais were
really on par with some of thegreatest crew of Burgundy. So I think
(48:55):
the bourgelat Nur chapter I've been probablyshadowing a bit the uh the great merits
of Uh of Gamet on great deal, and I think this is the time
now to open that chapter on Bourget. I'm extremely positive about the potential and
(49:19):
when we see the wine, whenI mean I've been tasting wine from so
many producers, young producers who arealso more more involved with organic farming,
I think we were. This isa new chapter opening on on rediscovering these
uh, these French. Well,we agree because beaujelt Clue or the gems
(49:44):
the jewels of Beaugelats we tasted.You're Juliana from domain Mont Basset and we
have a Mulanavan, which are youknow mulan Van is a bit more well
known. It's a it's a heartierBeaujelt. They have this amazing granite stone
blue stone there was. They arethe best of the best of the region
(50:05):
they're in. And I think againgoing back to everything you've done in your
life, combining the land and luxury, you go for the best of the
best in what you're doing. Nomatter what you're doing, the only thing
is that finding the best is onething. Then after you need to work
out to make it the best possible. So that's true. Well, it's
(50:29):
a it's a key ingredient to stop. But then the hard works, I
mean, the hard work is stillto be done. But this is what
I mean what is fun in life? I mean issue working out in order
to to make something potentially great isvery fulfilling. Well, Philip A.
(50:53):
Scaul, We've enjoyed speaking with you, you know, and listening to you.
We feel like you're a you're ayour own brand of wine with many
great vintages to come. Uh.You know, you've you've reinvented from you
know, corporate from from someone workingin Africa, serving serving the Third World,
to working in America really becoming aFrench Wine of food marketing expert,
(51:16):
to going into the high end luxurycorporate world and going back to where you
wanted to be in the first place, was the land. Uh. It's
it's great to see you and Catherineand your entire family involved in not reinventing,
but in re embracing the land.Uh the way you are both at
(51:37):
u Domain Ducille Ajan and Domain Montbasse. We we hope to visit you soon
and also doing your part to elevateregions, yes, Wine that that have
kind of languished at times exactly.I mean you pointed that out with historically
they have languished, and they deserveattention because they're still approachable and affordable to
(51:59):
many who want the ass of acertain class an area. This is great
pleasure, very fulfilling. And alsowhen your neighbors and your so called competitors,
I mean you have been a newcomeror relatively newcomer. At least your
your great grandfather or your grandfather andyour father are not buried in the local
(52:22):
cemetery, so you you're your foreignersand they say, hey, you're doing
a good job for the region.We're happy that you have done that.
You have resurrected the Celio one whichwas which was becoming a ruin. So
and they they recognize that putting somelight on Jeevree and putting some light on
Julina is they appreciate that, andthey tell you, they tell it to
(52:46):
you, and this is also,uh, this is nice to you.
It's very nice to hear, andit's very nice to know that you're doing
something good for the region. Wehave so enjoyed speaking with you today on
Connected Table, Philippe Pascal. Nextup will be visiting you in France.
Until then, we raise a glassof your wine and give you a toast
(53:07):
to all you've accomplished in the industryand what an amazing story. I'm stowing
some special bottles for you Millennium.David, absolutely all right, Thank you
so much for joining us and toConnect the Table live. We hope that
all of our listeners have enjoyed ourdiscussion with Phelippe Pascal, and we encourage
(53:31):
you to keep trying, keep traveling, keep tasting, and always stay insatiably
curious. Thank you.
The topics and opinions expressed and thefollowing show are solely those of the hosts
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(00:22):
FOURCY Radio. Welcome to the ConnectedTable Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
(00:44):
Young and David Ransom. You're insatiablycurious culinary couple. We enjoy bringing you
the dynamic people who are front andcenter and behind the scenes in wine,
food, spirits and hospitality around theworld. We enjoy travel and meeting them
and sharing their stories with you andthe wines they produced, in this case,
(01:07):
with our guests today. This isour guest today has an amazing career,
a long and impressive career in thewine fine wine industry. He is
from France and his resume just listenedto these companies so PEXA Seagram, LVMH,
LVMH and at LVMH he did workwith many luxury brands, not just
(01:34):
fine wine, but also Krug Champagne. He helped with the acquisition of Bulgary.
So really, this gentleman is anexpert in luxury wines and products and
marketing them to the world. We'retalking with Philippe Pascal. Interestingly, he
left the corporate world to focus onbecoming a vegnoron. Now think about that,
(01:57):
you had this amazing corporate career forlike decades. You receive Francis Lejeon
do'nour, the Legion of Honor,which is the highest honor you could rest
on your laurels and your corporate I'mdone. He still counsels the head of
LVMH, bernardo' know, but hedecided to dick his hands on the dirt
and focus on his winery. Andit's in Burgundy, and he actually has
(02:21):
two. Now he is joining usfrom his a winery in Burgundy, domain
Ducelier Amint. We have some winesin front of us. He also is
doing work producing beautiful wines in Beaujolais, and it's in the Coat Chalonnaise,
which is an interesting area we havenot been yet. So we're going to
talk about that and talk about hisillustrious career. Felipe Pascal, Welcome to
(02:45):
the Connected Table. Happy to bewith you, Millennium. David, Well,
we're thrilled to have you join ustoday, Philly. You know,
I want to take a little bitof a dive back into your past and
talk about growing up, where yougrew up in France, and what got
you started in business, and someof the jobs that you did before you
(03:08):
got into wine, which was obviouslyfairly late in your career, but you
obviously had a full career before that. So let's highlight a couple of things
that we mentioned earlier that you thatyou've done in your life before that.
Yes, so you want me tostart with my early life as a kid,
(03:30):
Well, I think we'll start there, because that's a long career.
From what we understand. You actuallygrew up in a family in the textile
business, not in the wine business. Yes, my father was my grandfather
aware in the textile business, whichin France was a struggling industry in the
(03:52):
beginning of the twentieth century and midtwentieth century, and the family business went
bankrupt so had to take a positionin a company who bought out the family
business. And I grew up therevery happily as the oldest of four kids.
And I vividly remember my first memorieswith wine. You know, when
(04:19):
we grew up, we were allowedwith my brother and sister two, although
we were still kids, to tastea bit of wine on the Sunday if
we had if we had got goodcalles at at school, and that was
one tens of wine and nine tenthsof water, and so it was.
(04:43):
It was a very pale beverage,but it had that taste of wine.
And that's really four years. Iwas happy to have my my my water
cut with a bit of red wine. And I was feeling like a grown
up guy. And then the thethe I decided I was fascinated by nature.
(05:09):
I was not fascinated by the industry. I wanted to do my career
and spend my life in nature working. I was attracted by the by the
by agriculture and by farming. SoI did my for for university. I
went to the agricultural school to geta master in agronomy and that's what I
(05:36):
studied. And while I was atthe university, I met my wife.
She was studying law, and myuniversity was in Dijon, and Dijon which
is in Burgundy famous for its mustad, among other things, and the cassis.
And I met my wife Katherine atthat and she was from Bone,
(06:03):
and you know, members of herfamily were in the wine business, and
she took me to visit some ofhis friends and some of his parents' friends.
So in a way I got somevery nice introduction tasting some very serious
wines. I knew nothing about thiswine, but you know where she contributed
(06:25):
to my education, and this wasfun. I fell in love with her,
but I also fell in love withBurgundy. And we said to each
other at the time when we decidedto partner for life, we said,
I mean, one day, oneday we we will be making our own
(06:46):
wine in Burgundy. And this wassounding like a ridiculous promise or a crazy
dream, because we had no nostake at all in Vignyalls. Our families
did an own vineyards, and anyway, we had plan also to develop our
(07:08):
own carrie on our own life awayfrom viticulture. But this is something we
told each other when we when wemet and when we fell in love,
that we say, okay, oneday we'll make our wine. So in
fact, it took us probably morethan thirty years to come back to our
original dream. I love that,that's a dream. And you grew up,
(07:32):
to be specific, in sant Etienne, which is in southwest of Leone.
It was known for its textiles inits day as a manufacturing and I
love lyone. By the way,it's so wonderful. But it's wonderful that
you and Catherine married and formed adream. How long have you two been
married. We married in seventy seven, so you know that's forty six.
(07:57):
Congratulations, Thanks, congratulations. Sohere's what we're curious about. You studied
agronomy, and you were interested ineven though you grew up in a manufacturing
city, you were interested in agriculture, agronomy. What brought you to Africa
where you actually served in the Frenchgovernment in Africa for a number of years.
(08:18):
We found that fascinating. Yes,in fact, since I graduated in
agronomy, we have that system inFrance. We had that system in France
like you have in the US,a kind of piscope organization, and rather
than serving in the army, Icould serve a bit longer in a country.
(08:43):
What we call third world countries.So for me, I was attracted
by this, and Katherine as well. She was excited by that ivy that
we could serve for a couple ofyears in a country where we could eventually
contribute to to the local people andto the local agriculture. And so we
(09:07):
went to a country which was aformer Portuguese colony, very called Guinea Bissau,
very south of Senegal, north ofIvoya coast, and very poor country
which had been literally destroyed by theindependence war for seven eight years. So
(09:28):
the country was in very poor condition. The people were not starving because the
weather was allowing them to grow theirfood, but people were suffering a lot,
and we were there to help themrestructure a bit their agriculture. And
it has been a fascinating human experience. On the technical side, you know,
(09:50):
it was it was very primitive,It was very difficult. It was
I mean, we we had electricityonce a week. We we had running
water from time to time, butnot every day. So so it was
a kind of very uncomfortable and challengingmission. But on the human side,
(10:13):
it was absolutely fulfilling because you know, you were helping people who were very
grateful and very eager to learn fromyou. But on the other hand,
you may have done you may havedone some beautiful uh universities and learned a
(10:33):
lot, but you realize that youknow nothing when when you when you're facing
their situation. So in fact,it was a kind of win win situation
where we were helping them to surviveand they were helping us to to understand
what is uh what is a verychallenging situation. So in a way this
(11:00):
was I think I learned more fromthem and from from from there, from
their living condition that I could possiblyhave helped them. But on the other
hand, they were happy that wewere there, bringing, bringing tools,
bringing food, bringing medicine, bringingsome advice on on on cultivation techniques,
(11:24):
but a great experience, fastaining experience, a far cry from luxury luxury goods,
I suppose, was kind of yournext top on your on the train
journey of your life for many manyyears. Because when you have learned to
survive in these kind of difficult conditions, I think you're you're you're in a
(11:46):
good shape. Then to learn otherthings and and and to give two set
priorities in your life. So wereferenced the many notable companies that you served
Seagram, you were a CEO ofBarton, Gustier and Bordeaux, and then
CEO of Mom and Perry's Uet Champagne, and then you join in LVMH and
(12:09):
you over saw the acquisition of severalluxury brands and wine and fashion. We
mentioned Crew, we mentioned Bulgary,and you really had the ear of CEO
and Bernard Arnaut. I mean,it's amazing, this vast career considering how
large and impactful that company is today. You know, luxury goods and marketing
(12:31):
have appeal. They seem to havea timeless appeal even in economic ups and
downs. We're wondering what your thoughtsare on that, and especially visa v
Wine because now you're making wine ina very special area of Burgundy. Well
Burgundy in general is considered, youknow, like the Golden Ring of wines,
along with Bordeaux. What is itabout these products and luxury that just
(12:56):
seems to you know, no matterwhat's going on, are still buying and
warning. I think the key,I mean the key to succeed in the
luxury industry or in the wine industryas well, which have some serious similarities,
(13:18):
is the quality if the quality isthere. If then I would not
say this is easy, because qualityis a discipline that you need to exercise
in every step of your activity,from the creation to the product, from
the sourcing of the raw material tothe creation of the product, to the
(13:41):
wine making, to the advance tothe to the service to the customer.
But the key is is a kindof endless quest for excellence, for quality
and making sure that you never forgetthat you will fail if if there is
(14:05):
a shortcut on quality or if thereis something missing. But before jumping to
luxury, you know things. Asas we are talking, I want to
tell you what has been also oneof my greatest learning experience in life and
probably the reason why I I alsowas able to succeed in luxury. After
(14:31):
Africa, I had the chance towork for so PEXA and for which was
called Food and Wine from France atthe time uh and I was appointed to
take charge of the of the USand the US market in the we were
in the very early eighties was wasbooming for for French wines period, French
(14:54):
food, French chefs, so therewas there was an amazing trend on this
and my big chance has been thatI've been able to work very closely with
American professional at the time, anda few things which we are fascinating for
(15:16):
me. First, in America,regardless of your age, as long as
you wish to work hard, you'reable to work closely with amazing people,
very talented people much more senior thanyou are, and there is no barrier,
there is no frontier. And Iwas, to me, the greatest
(15:39):
chance was to be able to meetsome great professionals in the US, were
very successful importers, retailers, chefs, people in marketing and advertising. You
know, I was, I wasa young kid. I mean I was,
I was not even thirty years old. And I was able to meet
(16:02):
some of the great greatest genius inadvertising in America. You know, people
like Bill Burnback or George Lewis orBill Tregos, which were leading three of
the leading agencies in New York.And these guys were genius. And I
was having coffee at seven o'clock inthe morning in the office, having a
(16:25):
chat, and I was the youngFrench guy. They liked me and they
were opening their science to me.And I was able to work very I
mean to learn a lot from allthese American creative people. On the other
(16:45):
hands, I was also very happy, too, very lucky to meet people
at Seagram like you. I'm sureyou remember one of the legends of Seagram,
mister Absimon ab Simon, was thechairman of Seagram Chateauna Estate, importing
the finest wine from France. AndI was like my grandfather. I mean,
(17:10):
he he liked what I was doing. He was telling me that I
was useful for the industry, whichwas very kind of him. And he
gave me some wonderful advice, introducedme to wonderful people who are still running
big companies today in the US.And and I learned, you know,
(17:30):
with all these American legends, Ilearned a lot. And I learned also
to be efficient. The key wasbe efficient in what you do. And
I think this is the American wayof doing things, which I learned from
you guys. And I think thishelped me a lot to succeed in my
(17:53):
corporate career. After I was thebest advice I knew. I knew edgars,
I knew a lot of the peopleare past me across actually because I
was living in New York in theeighties, and that really was the great
culinary revolution. It was the Americanculinary revolution, but everybody liked France.
What was the best advice I gaveyou? You know, he was first.
(18:15):
He was someone extremely generous, extremelydemanding, but extremely generous. And
I remember I went with him visitingsome important restaurantors in so many years and
what he I mean, I thinkhe teached me how you can be kind
(18:40):
and demanding because he was someone extremelykind to people, to his customers and
to his teams as well. Buthe was raised. He had very high
standout in terms of ethics and execution. So you can be in your professional
life, you can be very demanding, but you can be also extremely kind
(19:03):
to people, respect people. Imean, besides the fact that you need
to know your product, you needto know your industry, you need you
need to master or a number ofcompetencies. But yes, you can be
a gentleman and you can be demanding. That was absigmon. You really work
(19:25):
with some of the great philip It'spretty amazing in that time in the United
States. I'm sure was very valuablewhen you went back to France, and
because you had a lot of intelligence, because everybody wants to try to figure
out how to market to the UnitedStates. They still do it the major
most important export market, and eventoday we get it asked all the time,
(19:47):
even even today. And and infact this is Absigmon who proposed me
after years of Spixar. He proposedme to join a Ciagram first to run
a BNG battle and they wanted tohave I think they wanted to have a
(20:12):
management whom they can trust as wellas someone who ideally would be French.
So I was in a way,I was clicking the different cars as we
say, I mean I was French. They knew me, and they first
trusted me enough to ask me toto to run one of their companies,
(20:36):
and and then it went. Theythey were so happy with the job I
did in Bordo that they told methat Philip, we we need your help
in champagne. And I was dreamingof running a champagne company at that time.
So they asked me to to runa movement persuet. And again you
(20:59):
know, was was pushing me onon on this and I was. I
was really thrilled by taking the helmof these two champagne houses after I after
a few years, as you know, Seagram went through some re engineering they
focused on wine and spirit diminished.They went into media entertainment, orange juice,
(21:30):
whatever, and I felt the companywas losing focus and at this time
was has been calling me to tojoin the LVMH table, which at the
time was much smaller, and obviouslyI was tempted and I joined him to
(21:52):
run a verve clicko and we hadI remember, my experience in the US
helped me trem endlessly to understand themarket and to succeed with a great team
on a birth including the lady whowas running our business in the US,
Mira Giuliano, which was really atremendous asset for for for the group.
(22:18):
She's a force. We interviewed herthe first year of the show. She
is a total force. And youknow, just to think about when you
join LVMH, where it was andwhere it is now, and it's a
world leader in luxury goods and finewines and spirits and it just keeps going
and going and going. I mean, reading the recent Wine Spectator article,
I was like, well, youknow, dream dream, but then you
(22:40):
retired, but you didn't really retire, right, Yeah, you know,
we had uh first before retiring.We were we were able with my wife
to h to spot a small estatein Burgundy which needed a lot of love
(23:00):
and care, and we said,we said ourself, okay, this is
an opportunity for us to maybe toleave our dream, but to leave it
on the side, as I wasa weekend wine maker and a weekend farmer.
But then after a few years,we realized that if we wanted to
(23:23):
do things the right way, weneeded more time. We also found out
that maybe maybe by comparing what Iwas doing on the corporate side and comparing
that I had to do what Ihad, which I had to learn as
(23:44):
a new Viney Rome. Putting thingsin perspective, I said, maybe it's
better to focus on my viney homemission now when I still have some energy
at fifty four. Yea, yeah, I was fifty four, and we
say, okay, maybe maybe weshould focus on that. And after all,
(24:06):
I had the best years of thecorporate world, you know, growing
up with Seagram and then twenty yearswith fascinating years with the LVMH. After
all we had our best years,and maybe I should use my energy now
on our small family project. SoI had the opportunity to retire, as
(24:27):
we say, and it was itwas it was a good time because we
still had the energy and and becausebeing a vin your own you need you
need a lot of energy, notonly I mean mentally, but physically and
(24:48):
altho. So it was it was, it was a good time. The
kids we were had grown up.They were starting their own family in different
parts of the world. Also,we consider that we could we could have
another mission. Uh. And it'swhen you start that it's a bit difficult
(25:12):
at the beginning because you you know, you you were used, you were
used to to have a lot ofhelp, a lot of means, a
lot of support, big teams,a lot of talented people around you.
(25:33):
The logistics were quite easy in thecorporate well if I remember well, and
then you start and we were inour house in Burgundy. We had to
buy our first computer. We hadto do everything by ourselves. I needed
to find a local accountant to helpus, so I had to start again
(25:57):
with a local banker. So youknow, we we had to do everything
by by ourselves and looking for helphere and there, but without the big,
the big logistical support of a group. So you you wake up in
the morning with a bit of anxietyon what are you going to achieve?
(26:21):
And you end up the day extremelytired, exhausted because you had a long
day doing so many different things whichare far away from your former management life.
We're smiling because we go through thatall the time, having having had
a worker company and now much smallerbusiness. You know, Philip, it
(26:44):
kind of sounds like my father's journeywho he was a director of marketing for
IBM for many, many years anddecided to give it all up and go
buy a winery in upstate New York. Really yeah, so, I so
you're milliare with the situation so soso we know your trials and tribulations that
you've been through firsthand, that's forsure. So Philip, the the farm
(27:08):
that you bought is Domain de sellerAmant, which is in the coach Shalony,
specifically in the town of JV.Why don't you tell us about the
domain and it a little bit ofits history because it actually dates back nine
hundred years nine hundred years soon soonin a few years. The Yeah,
(27:30):
when when we were looking for aplace with scheduling to start our wine journey,
we were looking in Burgundy. Wewanted to We're always attracted by the
great Tehroirs and the history behind it. And we also were looking for a
(27:53):
place where we would live and youknow, all the family, the kids,
the grandkids, and so the thethe brief for the project was was
a bit ambitious, and after welooked for for many years. We were
(28:15):
looking around very discreetly, because weneed to be discreet in order to have
a successful hunting. So we lookedaround, we saw a few things,
and we dropped, and then westarted again. And then one day we
we through through a friend, wehad the information that the Celio One,
that all cellar built by the monksalmost nine centuries ago, was for sale,
(28:41):
together with its vineyards. But boththe vineyards and on the buildings were
in poor shape. But oh god, when we visited at first sight,
we fell in love. We fellin love with the first with the spot,
because the location was absolutely superb.Facing south, remote from the village,
(29:03):
from the city of Jevree, overlookingall the area, we could feel
the history, I mean, allthose nine centuries of history were there,
even if everything was was in badshape, and there was I would say
even a bit more which something morewhich attracted which was the fact that it
(29:29):
had been run by monks for manycenturies, in fact, seven centuries until
French Revolution. And and we wekind of like that environment, which was
both historical and a bit mystical.We we could, I mean, we
immediately imagine what had been the lifethere in the Middle Age. And there
(29:56):
was nothing written about the history ofthe place. There was there were little
pieces here and there, but butnothing has been searched really seriously. But
we saw the potential and we say, we love this place. We want
to give it back its former glory. We think it's going to be a
(30:17):
great place to work in, agreat place to live with a family,
a great place to us to thegrandkids when they will grow up. And
and and that was it. Imean, it took us one hour literally
to decide, without the business plan, without any idea on what we will
be doing. We say, thisis it. There's the vignard, there
(30:38):
is the house, there is thecellar, there is the history, and
and there is the fact that herethe monks have been working and praying for
so many centuries. So let's let'slet's do that. So we embarked on
this is having done no no,but jet all our forecast and the improved
(31:00):
to be wrong. We had towork harder and longer than we suppose initially.
But let me tell you it hasbeen a fantastic journey because today the
place is alive and doing well,and I think the place is safe for
(31:23):
at least the next two or threecenturies. So we feel good about our
mission. Well, it's I lovethe fact that you went from probably doing
lots of swat analysis and corporate lifeto a passion a passionate project with no
plan. Just you wanted to havea winery. I just love that juxtaposition.
You and Catherine acquired domain ducla Onone in two thousand and four,
(31:45):
and in two thousand and eight youand your winemaker Guillo Marco started a fairly
massive replanning project and implemented many changesto transition the winery, bracing biodynamic and
gravity cellaring. How do you feelthis what I just briefly touched on these
(32:05):
initiatives. Share a little bit moreabout that and why you feel this is
so important as you move forward producingyour wines first or on the wine way
side, we quickly realized that theformer cellar built by the monks was not
large enough to make an age winein bold long enough that the you know,
(32:35):
in the Middle Age monks were makingwine. They were great viticulturists.
They were making quickly the wine andselling the wine bulk very quickly. So
there was no aging. And thewine making science at the time was quite
rustic, so the wine way wasnot big enough. It was cold in
the winter, too warm in thesummer, so to age properly wine was
(33:00):
well, it was not proper bytoday's standards. So that's why we came
with that idea of a gravity fedcellar on fall level underground and which which
is helping us now to make farbetter wine. So this is the story
about the cellar and the fact thatwe needed a new tool to work with.
(33:23):
The other thing is that we alsowanted to do things as as clean
and as possible for the environment.And I was, you know, my
background as an agronomist, as ascientist, I was quite familiar with the
(33:44):
role of chemistry, and I knewthe pros and cons of many of the
techniques used in the modern world,and I wanted we wanted to do something
va cling for the environment, aclean for workers, and also very clan
for for our family, and veryclean for the consumer as well. So
(34:08):
I did. I did embark onthat idea of going organic and biodynamic on
the principle very quickly with Katrine.However, in order to do that,
you really need to have a greatteam who shares that vision. And that's
(34:29):
the reason why we ask Gillo Marcoto join us as a viticulturist and a
winemaker who had experienced in organic andbiodynamic and with Guillo we were able to
embark on that the environmental journey,which has been fascinating because we not only
(34:54):
we knew that what we were doingwas good for the environment and and uh
and eventually inspiring some of our youngneighbors, but also we knew that it
was it was helping us to makefar better wines because being organic and biodynamic,
we have to care more for ourvinyls the way it grows. We
(35:16):
are much more into an anticipation modeof cultivation, which help us, I
think, because we anticipate better better. It helped us to grow better grapes
and to make a better wine.So all in all, it has been
a very rewarding journey. You know, a lot of that you drew in
(35:38):
your agronomous experience, but it alsodraws on your luxury goods experience. Because
with luxury goods, because we knowthere's many fakes in the roy of wine
and luxury products and persons, there'sa lot of quality products made for quality
ingredients, whether it's quality fabric,the quality engineering, the quality grapes.
(35:59):
You have to start with that andremain committed to it. And that,
as you know, in all wonderfulproducts, takes a lot of time and
care and detail. You can't makeit. You can't make it unless you
fake it. You can't fake itto make it. In this business,
and particularly when it's fine wines andfind goods, Coach shelonise is kind of
(36:22):
interesting. It's you know, it'sfurther south than the Code door. The
Cote Door is known for these veryexpensive UH premiere and chronic clue wines.
You do have premier clue wines thatyou make outside of Coach Shelons as well.
But what what about this area UHis appealing and why should everyone listening
(36:43):
to the show be thinking about tryingthe wines from this area? And you
can hear some of yours. Sothe first the reason why we gain to
this area, it's because I thinkafter having explored many other opportunities in Court,
(37:05):
Dubon or Denui. It was obviousthat it was out of reach financially.
First there was almost nothing for saleand whatever was coming for sale was
just tragious in terms of price.Then we discovered that beautiful Celiohman spot in
(37:27):
Jevree, and not only we wewere able to afford it because the coals
was more affordable at the time itstill is, but also because that spot
was was really so attractive for thathistorical reason, the monks, the architecture,
(37:47):
the location, et cetera. Comingback to Coches, it's true that
this is a region which is developingvery well, which is still providing some
great values. I mean, ifwe look at price compared to some of
(38:09):
could the Bone or could the NewGrand Crew? For sure, there is
no ground crew in challenges, thereare prob but yes, the the the
price is still affordable. And thereason why it's amazing to to to realize
(38:30):
why that region is a bit farbehind could the Bone and could? You
have to remember we had Felix RRwhich destroyed the vineyards in France at the
end of the nineteenth century and beginningof the twentieth century. So beginning of
(38:57):
twentieth century. You have also WorldWar One, and you have the combination
of philoxera and World War One onthe viticulture, on the wine industry and
in many young men died during WorldWar One and after World War One was
(39:20):
over, so we are in nineteennineteen twenty, there is a lot of
vigneyard to be replanted in Coude,Duble and cout the US. All the
young men who came back from warworked very hard in the in the family
estates to replant and to grow backthe industry which was soon very flourishing in
(39:44):
Cochalonnaise. In fact, there wasa new industry emerging not too far in
a place called lu Croso and MonsaultLemin, which were an area which is
thirty min from Jivree and Mercury,which is a place where there was a
(40:05):
lot of mining industry as well asstill industry. So mining and still was
after World War One, very bigindustry. It was very attractive. It
needed the manpower, it needed theworkforce. So a lot of young men
coming back from World War One,the few, the lucky one we are
(40:28):
coming back from World War one,were attracted to get a job in these
minds or in the big steel manufacturer, and they were making there better living
than being a vigni. So theywere filling their family. And in Kochs
(40:50):
they were really short on manpower toreplant after Filoxea. And what happened that
they replanted mostly the the lower vineyardsclose to the village, and in a
way they neglected some of the slopes, some of the best slopes on which
you add some of the most interestingcrew classified crew. So in a whey,
(41:16):
the viticulture changed. It became aviticultuur more driven on volume I yield.
And here we are talking about WorldWar two and until the nineteen sixty
seventy and that difficulture and culturalness wasreally driven more on the volume and I
(41:40):
yield, I yield in the flatarea rather than on the slope like in
Couldubon and could do so in away that impacted the old economy, the
old business model. And it's notuntil I would say the yeah, the
(42:00):
late seventies early eighty that cultural startedto rediscover its greatest theerroir, and started
to replant the greatest seroa with finepinon noir and fine shandone a bit less
less productive, but higher quality.So I'm just mentioning this because in terms
(42:22):
of geology, in terms of geography, in terms of history, the region,
I mean when it was in theMiddle Age or with the Sisters Monks
until the French Revolution, the culturalwas as prosperous as the could double and
(42:43):
could then. And it's really afterWorld War One and Filix Cera that,
as I mentioned to you, therewas that impact on the region. So
now the region is catching up abit. And not to say that it's
going to reach create surprized, becausethis is not the objective, which was
just to explain why why the dynamicsin the recent dynamics in has been a
(43:07):
bit different than what you what youknow about. And it's really interesting when
we go out, I mean it'sreally when we dine out, finding a
Burgundy is usually out of our pricerange. We had we we had a
wonderful them from a curry recently atben Wy and we've got your You have
some beautiful wines here from domain Udo sele On one. We have in
(43:32):
front of us, the Montaigni andthe Les Dessus. We've already had a
few. We had all from thecity. Yes, you know we had
the we had a beautiful allegote thatwe were sent to try from you as
well, and interesting Melennius. Thosevineyards were planted just after World War Two,
in nineteen forty exactly, and itwas just an It was an amazing
(43:52):
bottle of all. I don't thinkI've had one like it history. We
do want to make sure we includein touch on also your expansion into Boujelat,
because we have moms of time andyou are producing Bouselet clue to be
very specific, which we love.As you know, we had a history
working with Boujelet producers over the years. What why did you decide to expand
(44:16):
into this area and tell us whatyou're producing their mont So first I had
I would say I had a loveaffair with from My from My so pixis
in the US, because we wewere doing a lot with the producers at
the time, all those great characterscoming once. So you're for a big
(44:40):
bouchet At blitz. Sorry, anduh, we we have many friends in
common that were quite instrumental in thesuccess of So. I had that very
good feeling about the region and thepeople. And then I wanted with g
who is my right hand man.Here is a young talented wine maker.
(45:06):
We we I wanted to you know, I always like to work with a
young entrepreneur, and I think myrole at my age also is to help
the new generation to to succeed.So I had that plan with Gillum to
start a new company in which itwould be involved, and we were scouting
(45:30):
around Givre. We said, okay, we need to stay at max at
one hour drive from Givre in ordernot to stretch ourselves to to thin.
So where do you want to makea great right wine? And told me,
you know, I'd love to makea great wine with why don't we
try Bojore. So obviously we wentsouth rather than not because so forget it.
(45:58):
So we were we were lucky tofind again history repeat repeats itself with
gill Home. We spent two yearsvisiting the and one day we found that
slope called Busse in Juliana. Andit happened that a couple of vignos were
(46:21):
retiring and selling their their plots onthat hill, and we were able to
buy at the end four of themto make a bigger plot on that iel
of Busse and to start our ourlove story with Juliana, which is probably
not the most well known crew ofso the we know, the awareness of
(46:45):
Juliana is is behind one of uhand but it's fine. At least we
are starting. We have a missionthere to make Juliana, to put you
know, I on the map.But we we fell in love with the
Tehuan. So there there was nomonks, there was no abbey, there
(47:09):
was no existing building. There wasjust the fact that it was a great
taehoir in Julian r and and wethought that that would be the perfect spot
with again a lot of replanting,building a new celler on top of the
hill. And and and uh ourfirst vintage we made it in what you
(47:37):
would call a garage in California,you know, in the shack. And
that was our first vintage. Butwe were very happy with it, uh
and and we literally did it,you know, with our four hands,
human mind and and and uh andworking at night there when the day was
(48:00):
over in jewry. And today wehave built a cellar which is overlooking the
village of Juliana on the hills ofBoujelais. And we even see the Monblaw
from the winery, which is onehundred miles away, on hundred and twenty
miles away. So it's a beautifullocation, beautiful Trois, and I do
feel that you know the history ofthe states. I do feel that we
(48:27):
can we can really write a newchapter on the crude bouchelais, which are
splendid wines. And in between thetwo wars in I read a lot about
what was happening in Paris and inParis restaurant, the great crude Boujelais were
really on par with some of thegreatest crew of Burgundy. So I think
(48:55):
the bourgelat Nur chapter I've been probablyshadowing a bit the uh the great merits
of Uh of Gamet on great deal, and I think this is the time
now to open that chapter on Bourget. I'm extremely positive about the potential and
(49:19):
when we see the wine, whenI mean I've been tasting wine from so
many producers, young producers who arealso more more involved with organic farming,
I think we were. This isa new chapter opening on on rediscovering these
uh, these French. Well,we agree because beaujelt Clue or the gems
(49:44):
the jewels of Beaugelats we tasted.You're Juliana from domain Mont Basset and we
have a Mulanavan, which are youknow mulan Van is a bit more well
known. It's a it's a heartierBeaujelt. They have this amazing granite stone
blue stone there was. They arethe best of the best of the region
(50:05):
they're in. And I think againgoing back to everything you've done in your
life, combining the land and luxury, you go for the best of the
best in what you're doing. Nomatter what you're doing, the only thing
is that finding the best is onething. Then after you need to work
out to make it the best possible. So that's true. Well, it's
(50:29):
a it's a key ingredient to stop. But then the hard works, I
mean, the hard work is stillto be done. But this is what
I mean what is fun in life? I mean issue working out in order
to to make something potentially great isvery fulfilling. Well, Philip A.
(50:53):
Scaul, We've enjoyed speaking with you, you know, and listening to you.
We feel like you're a you're ayour own brand of wine with many
great vintages to come. Uh.You know, you've you've reinvented from you
know, corporate from from someone workingin Africa, serving serving the Third World,
to working in America really becoming aFrench Wine of food marketing expert,
(51:16):
to going into the high end luxurycorporate world and going back to where you
wanted to be in the first place, was the land. Uh. It's
it's great to see you and Catherineand your entire family involved in not reinventing,
but in re embracing the land.Uh the way you are both at
(51:37):
u Domain Ducille Ajan and Domain Montbasse. We we hope to visit you soon
and also doing your part to elevateregions, yes, Wine that that have
kind of languished at times exactly.I mean you pointed that out with historically
they have languished, and they deserveattention because they're still approachable and affordable to
(51:59):
many who want the ass of acertain class an area. This is great
pleasure, very fulfilling. And alsowhen your neighbors and your so called competitors,
I mean you have been a newcomeror relatively newcomer. At least your
your great grandfather or your grandfather andyour father are not buried in the local
(52:22):
cemetery, so you you're your foreignersand they say, hey, you're doing
a good job for the region.We're happy that you have done that.
You have resurrected the Celio one whichwas which was becoming a ruin. So
and they they recognize that putting somelight on Jeevree and putting some light on
Julina is they appreciate that, andthey tell you, they tell it to
(52:46):
you, and this is also,uh, this is nice to you.
It's very nice to hear, andit's very nice to know that you're doing
something good for the region. Wehave so enjoyed speaking with you today on
Connected Table, Philippe Pascal. Nextup will be visiting you in France.
Until then, we raise a glassof your wine and give you a toast
(53:07):
to all you've accomplished in the industryand what an amazing story. I'm stowing
some special bottles for you Millennium.David, absolutely all right, Thank you
so much for joining us and toConnect the Table live. We hope that
all of our listeners have enjoyed ourdiscussion with Phelippe Pascal, and we encourage
(53:31):
you to keep trying, keep traveling, keep tasting, and always stay insatiably
curious. Thank you.
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