December 6, 2023 • 52 mins
Tor Kenward founded TOR Wines in 2001 after a 27-year career with Beringer Estates where he established Beringer's School for American Chefs with Madeleine Kamman and the American Institute of Wine & Food with Julia Child and Robert Mondavi. Kenward's memoir, "Reflections of a Vintner," spans his 50 -career from the 1970s when Napa had less than 50 wineries to today with more than 400 wineries and 1000 brands. TOR Wines embodies Kenward’s vision to work with Napa’s top growers and vineyards.
The Connected Table is broadcast live Wednesdays at 2PM ET.
The Connected Table Radio Show is broadcast on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
The Connected Table Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-connected-table-live--1277037/support.
The Connected Table is broadcast live Wednesdays at 2PM ET.
The Connected Table Radio Show is broadcast on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
The Connected Table Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-connected-table-live--1277037/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The topics and opinions expressed in thefollowing show are solely those of the hosts
and their guests and not those ofW FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates.
We make no recommendations or endorsements forradio show programs, services, or
products mentioned on air or on ourweb. No liability, explicit or implied
shall be extended to W FOURCY Radioor its employees are affiliates. Any questions
or comments should be directed to thoseshow hosts. Thank you for choosing W
(00:21):
FOURCY Radio. Welcome to the ConnectedTable Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
(00:46):
Young and David Ransom. You're insatiablycurious culinary couple. We love taking you
around the world to meet the fascinatingpeople in wine, food, spirits,
and hospitality that we meet along theway and introduce you to wonderful destinations and
places to visit, and wines todrink and foods to eat. And today
(01:07):
we're taking you to Napa Valley.Our guest says he's a little old vintner
situated in the heart of Napa Valley, but he's got a big story to
tell, and it's shared in hisnew memoir Reflections of a vintner, stories
and seasonal wisdom from a lifetime inNapa Valley. Our guest today is Tor
(01:29):
ken Ward. He has spent overfifty years in the business, almost like
me, and really was at theforefront of Napa when it was just a
little bitty start up Avia with likemaybe fifty wineries. And how many does
it have now, David oh untoldcounts millions were over two hundred. Yeah,
(01:51):
oh Napa Valley. Yeah, soso they were looking at about over
one thousand brands now, oh athousand. See that's the deception because there's
a lot more brands than our actually, yeah brand. Anyway, it's big
time. So tour Ken, We'rewelcome to the Connected Table. It's my
honor. Thank you. Melanie.Well, you've been on a raider.
(02:15):
Yeah, you've been on a raiderfor a while, okay, and so
when your book just landed in ourmailbox, we're like, yeah, this
is like awesome. So, tourYou've got a big story to tell,
but we always like to start atthe very beginning. And what's really cool
is you grew up in a veryartistic family. Bohemian actually is what surrounded
(02:39):
you. Your dad was a notedwriter, your mother and actress. Talk
to us about your childhood. Well, we had a lot of creative types
wandering in and out of the houseall the time. Dad loved to cook,
which really was something that stayed influentialmost of my life, the passion
(03:00):
for food and adventure in food,and Mom was she was actually a painter.
In most of the life that Ihad with her, she was an
actress on Broadway, refused to dofilm and became a painter. But Dad
(03:23):
was a writer and made a livingwriting. First it was plays, one
play which was his claim to fame, and never really followed up with anything
quite as successful as Cry Havoc inthe forties, which interestingly enough, was
all women cast and it was aboutthe nurses in the Philippines during World War
(03:51):
Two during the Baton March, butit was all women and it went into
Hollywood production later on with again allwomen, And yeah, it was an
interesting life. We had actors,we had musicians because Dad liked music.
We had writers, we had directors. That was that was the environment I
(04:17):
grew up in. It's so cool, kind of like a little bit like
my environment here with my parents werevery theatrical, interesting, that it was
about the Philippine during the Baton March. I just read a book by Grisham.
The Reckoning and the Japanese Death Marchfeatures heavily in that book. I
(04:39):
did read that. That's that's thatwas a really good book. It was
actually anyway, so you actually gotinto music after you actually served in Vietnam.
Speaking of speaking of wars and thankyou for your service, it was,
but you also had an epiphany offood and you invited somebody to her
(05:00):
Why don't you tell us about thatand how you got into how you got
inspired to get into the food world. Yeah, I think that's in the
chapter in the book about salt.I was in an area called Vung Tao
and I ran into it the pxof Vietnamese who loved food, and we
(05:21):
started talking as English was excellent,and he talked me into doing something I
probably wouldn't do today, But backthen I was I was bulletproof, invincible.
He said, come off base.I was actually working the hospital,
so it would be away from thehospital into an area that was not protected
(05:46):
in any way whatsoever, and I'lloffer you one of the most interesting culinary
experiences you may have ever had.If you bring a bottle of Johnny Walker
black. So I went into civilianclothes, which I should have. I
went off base and met him inan area that I shouldn't have been in,
(06:09):
but he took me to the coastand vum pal and we watched the
fishing boats come in. He wentout to the fishing boats and literally picked
out the fresh seafood that they werebringing in and put that into a protected
area on the shore. And weliterally just had raw seafoods. It was
(06:30):
salt and lime juice, dipped inand drank Johnny Walker black until I needed
to get back to the base.But I have never forgotten one how absolutely
delicious that fresh seafood was. I'dnever had anything like that, And the
experience of seeing the boats come inand then sharing a moment with somebody that
(06:57):
was Vietnamese and just talking about lifein general together. I never forgot that
experience and how important salt was andthe lemon was to the raw fish.
You talk about that also in thebook about when people express displeasure in certain
styles of cabernet. You talk aboutadding salt. I think it is right.
(07:19):
Yeah, Yeah, I was veryfortunate, and I'm sure, we'll
talk a little bit about Julia Childand Madeline Camon. But Julia and Madeline
drove they actually taught me how importantsalt is when when you're when you're serving
(07:40):
and working with wines like cabernet.Cabernet tends to have a tannic side to
it. Winemakers contain that, butthe grape itself tends to have a certain
amount of tann and phenologs to it. And it's as I do this occasionally
when I'm doing take things, whensomebody will say, well, that's a
(08:01):
big wine, I'll say, well, let's get some salt, put it
on the on the wrist, firsttaste the wine, then lick the salt
and taste the wine again. Andif you've never done that, you will
be shocked on how it softens thosetannins and softens the wine. And I
(08:24):
always tell people, I say,okay, you go to a steakhouse,
what do they do with those steaks? Besides cook them? They add usually
salt and butter or some sort offat to it. So it's one of
those simple easy secrets to peril biggerwine a cabernet with almost any dish.
(08:46):
Actually, I thought that was aninteresting reveal. Another interesting reveal because we
know you from the wine role foryour long career with Barringer and more recently
as the founder of Tour Wines.But you ran a jazz club for many
years and had some really notable actsbefore entering the world of wine. And
(09:07):
we learned that you and your budRobert Parker or Neil Young fans. Yeah,
yeah, well we weren't and Ishouldn't say this, but we were
at one of his concerts raising moneyfor the school that his kids were in,
Bridge School, and he said hewanted to meet with us, and
(09:31):
we went backstage, watched a fewacts backstage, and he never showed up,
never came out for whatever reason.So Bob gave up on Neil.
I'm still a Neil Young fan.But before I got into the wine business,
I had a jazz club with afew guys down in southern California,
(09:52):
and we very fortunate to bring inmusicians like Oscar Peterson, Stan Getz.
The CTI people actually did other actson the side, like one night we
did Tom Wade's and Bonnie Ray andI looked at my booking sheets for that
and the cost of the two together. I think was right around or under
ten thousand dollars. Wow, whendo they charge now, my bonnie?
(10:20):
Yeah? Wait and rate like that. Those are fun days. Yeah,
there were fun days. So theywere fun days. But then you decided
to really go into the fun lifeand you became, as you say,
the vice president of fund. Youyou caught the wine bug. You know
a lot of people like you.And David's father who worked for you know,
(10:41):
Big Blue IBM, and decided tohe caught the wine bug and decided
to run open a winery. Alot of people come from other professions and
get the wine bug. What wasthe bug bite that got you? Yeah,
David, I didn't know your dadwas had a winery's And that's an
(11:03):
interesting story. Yeah, we actuallystarted. We were all grown when we
decided to purchase it, and ithad basically stopped making wine in New York
it is, and so we boughtit and we ran it for about twenty
years or so and then finally unloadedit on somebody else. But it was
but it was a lot of fun. We were New York's top award winning
winery for many years, so that'show we met. We had a great
(11:24):
run and lots of the way.Yeah, but it was also good for
you, good for you, yeahyeah. Well, you know, back
when I got the wine bug,which was in the seventies, I was
I love to cook, love food, and I was cooking for a group
that had access to the best winesin the world at that time that were
(11:46):
being imported into the States. Andthey'd bring these incredible wines, most of
them Old World, most of themFrench, to the table and I just
absolutely blown away. Uh. Ihad to read, I had to research,
I had to know everything I couldabout those wines, the wine business,
(12:09):
and I had I was dating somebodyat Stanford at that time, so
I combined trips to Stanford. Iwas in southern California, UH, to
Napa Valley and UH and I becamethe Napa Valley Northern California wine expert in
my little group. So those experiencesof sitting down in those days, you
(12:33):
sat down with Joe Heights, withAndre Schilicheff, with Bob, Bob and
Dobbie, even the principles sat downwith you or showed up in the tasting
rooms UH and in a very smallwinery, were very very accessible. You
would spend hours with these people,listening to their passion and their stories,
(12:56):
and you'd look around and see thebeauty of Napa Valley and you had the
passion, you had the dreamers,you had the farmers, and you had
the beauty here. I just oneday came up after running Beta breakers,
applied for two jobs that I heardwere available. One gave me a call
(13:20):
the next day, and I tookthe job. Just threw everything in the
back of my car and drove uphere and never looked back, you know,
tour. This morning, I wasup rather early, and I went
into my father's cellar which we're gatheringand packing, and he has a Napa
caps from the nineteen seventies. Oh, some of those are really good.
(13:46):
And yeah, a lot of earlyLouis Martini, and we had some Beaulieu.
We had a Bullio la Tour.I don't know if we still have
it. It was fascinating. ButI thought about you, and I thought
about Napavent and how much has changed, and what was Baroner like then?
And where did you You worked therefor thirty years, right or twenty seven
(14:07):
years? Is about twenty It isabout twenty four years. Yeah, I
was the resident wine geek and became, as I said to most of my
friends, and it was sort ofmy internal title vice president in charge of
all the fun because they were sendingme to Europe every year to sit down
(14:28):
with wine makers, bring fresh ideasback to winemaking department. And during that
process and Melanie, I think you'llthis will sort of strike a chord with
Hugh. Back in the seventies andeven into the early eighties, the hospitality
in the United States was very different, as was the food scene in the
(14:54):
United States. You go to awine growing area in France, let's say,
with usually a Meshlin two or threestar restaurant, and in all that
focus on fresh produce, on creativityin the kitchen, and of course the
wine that did not really exist certainlyin Napa and in any other wine growing
(15:16):
area that I'm aware of in theUnited States or maybe this hemisphere, and
people like myself, people like RobertMndovi and others, said we have to
bring this back to the United States, to Napa Valley. So Bob had
(15:37):
very Mandavi had very aggressive, startedto develop very aggressive and interesting culinary programs,
initially showcasing French chefs. My takeon it was to showcase American chefs
and to educate American chefs. SoI started culinary program that introduced me to
(16:00):
Julia Child, and then we talkedMadeline Cammon into coming up and running.
I co founded a school for Americanchess with her at Barringer and we ran
that for about twelve years. Sothis whole concept about wine and food,
hospitality, entertainment was in the lateseventies kind of new and groundbreaking. Obviously,
(16:27):
when people come to Napa Valley,now, that's what they expect,
and that's what the reputation of NapaValley, that's what makes Napa Valley such
a great destination for those that lovefood and wine. It was not like
that fifty years ago at all.It was blue collar. We were farmers
(16:52):
more than we were entertainers or celebritywine makers. You know, it really
was the Wild West much more thanyou think it was, because there were
there were very few people actually therefull time making wine. Right And you
know, Toy, you actually talkabout Bob Mundavi in your book quite a
bit, and what a visionary hewas. Why don't you tell us about
(17:15):
your relationship with him? Yeah,you know, candidly, Bob and I
did a lot of stuff together.Served on boards. I served on some
of his UH. He worked onsome boards that that I established. But
in all candor, we were neverreally uber close, very very close,
(17:36):
but our professional lives ran into UH. We we bumped a lot UH and
and I was always owed by hisHe had a theme which was Napa Valley
wines are as good as any winesin the world, and he said that
(17:59):
time and time again. It wasa persistent message, and everything that he
did was to drive home that point. If there was a large audience and
Bob was there, he would bethe first to stand up and to give
that recitation. He was a verydriven person, high energy. One of
(18:21):
my favorite stories, I don't thinkI put it in the book. Bob
used to take his his top lieutenantswith him to Europe every year so that
they could experience what he called thegood life, which is the wine and
food in the growing areas. AndBob what they used to do at lunch
(18:41):
when they got off the bus,they'd find out who was serving the wine
at the lunch spot and pay him, tip him extra money so that he
could keep filling Bob's glass, sothat Bob would slow down a little bit.
You did put that in the book, and that made me smile.
He was just such a you know, he was a visionary. I honestly
(19:06):
think he was more of a marketingperson than a wine maker. But he
knew what the directions that we neededto go. He put excellence and the
pursuit of it at the very topof his agenda. He was a true
leader. And that's why I thinkthat we look back and there's nobody in
(19:30):
the United States in the last hundredyears that's been more influential than Bob and
Dobby. He was singular. Hecertainly was. You know, it's funny
talking about his drinking habits. TheWine Spectator a number of years ago queried
a bunch of Napa Velly winemakers abouthow much wine they drank every day and
Bob and they asked Bob and Margretwhat they drank, and they said at
(19:53):
least a bottle, probably more.And a daily massage. He had,
Yes, he did both of those. Yeah, and you know he lived
to a ripe old age. Youknow. He and let's just talk about
while we're on it, because youreally often have to talk about Julia at
the same time because Julia Child andRobert mc dabby established the American Institute of
Wine and Food. And you know, you say that you only were kind
(20:15):
of in and out of his life, but you know he respected you enough
tour to have you helped start bothAmerican Institute of Wine Food and Kopeiah.
He puts you on a plane withhim to go get try to get money
from Howard Schultz at Starbucks. Youhad some wonderful stories I did. I
was blessed to know both Bob andDobby quite well through my work with the
(20:36):
Jamespear Foundation, But even more soJulia. Your anecdotes about her were so
endearing and then of course they're heramazingly uh, her weird antagonistic relationship with
Madeline. They were insiders know that, but share for the people who don't
know a little bit about her.And also in fairness, also Madeline came
(20:59):
in, who you say is underestimatedin the industry. Yeah, and well,
Julia was more of a friend thanBob was in my life. And
when Julia and I got together,we talked everything. We talked politics,
we talked people, We talked asmany out subjects outside wine and food as
(21:25):
we did wine and food. Boband I basically just talked business and wine
and food. But Julia was justso inspiring anytime. And you probably Melanie
might remember this. And Julia wasaround a bunch of chefs and there was
a meal being prepared, she wouldget back in that kitchen and talk to
(21:45):
them. Madeline would probably sit down. And you know, I adore Madeline.
I think she is one of thegreats. Her books are absolutely amazing.
She may be one of the greatculinary teachers of the last century.
Hard and demanding, but unbelievably giftedin that area. But if Madlin was
(22:11):
having a meal in the chefs arein the kitchen, she probably wouldn't go
back, and if they came out, she would probably criticize them and tell
them what was wrong. And yeah, I thought that was funny. Yeah,
two different personalities. Julia was,you know, sort of warm,
inviting, curious and asking questions andlistening. And Madeline was was was always
(22:38):
teaching and always telling and would veryeasily tell you the flaws as much as
she'd give you a compliment. Well, your stories of both were really trivic
and just to recap with Madeline cameand you established the bar in your School
of American Chefs, which I thinkran for about a decade or so.
(23:00):
Right, and you discovered Gary Danko, who was a protege of Madeline's who
ended up coming to work for Baronjer and Runney in the restaurant. Right,
that's right. I mean, that'sa fun story for me to look
back on. Is I had thisand you'll know some of the people in
the stories. I had this revolvingchef program where I would go to Johnson
(23:23):
and Wales and we had the CaliforniaCulinary Institute at the time and a few
other schools. And I didn't doit with the CIA, but I did
it with a lot of these youngculinary schools. We would go back,
judge them on their ability of pairingwine with their food, and then bring
that chef to the winery for fiveto six months to cook and experiment and
(23:45):
develop programs. Well, I wastold by Mary Reeseley, who you might
know as a teacher in San Francisco. Matt. Mary called me and she
said, Tor, you know,Madam's going to be out. She loves
wine, she loves the wine business, and you might consider doing a dinner
up at the winery to celebrate her, and I said, let's do it,
(24:08):
and Madelon came up. I explainedthe program that we had revolving chefs.
She said, well, I wantone of my chefs to come out
and to participate. So I nicelysaid yes. Didn't expect to hear from
her, but I did. Acouple months later she said, I've got
a chef. He's coming out intwo months, and you don't say no
(24:33):
to Madeline. I didn't have aplace, but I made a place for
him, and it was Gary Danko. And in a short story, Gary's
ability to cook was far beyond anyof the chefs I'd worked with up until
that point. I mean, hewas brilliant from the day that he stepped
(24:56):
into the winery and ran our programsfor a bit six years. Actually had
a restaurant up at Chetta souver Ringfor a short while too, and we
literally encouraged him to move on tohis own restaurants, which he did obviously,
and because he could expose his talentto a much broader audience. Unbelievably
(25:19):
gifted chef who Madeline. Anyway,we could tell stories about Madeline and Gary
forever. I have very fond memoriesof both of them. Well, we
never got to interview Madeline when shewas alive, but and we had still
have an interview Gary Dago, andwe love his restaurant. We haven't been
to San Francisco in ages. Wetend ed up in Europe. Love him.
One of my funnest New Year's Evesever, it was Gary and his
(25:44):
partner in my friend Valerie. Ohmy god, I've never left so hard
with those guys in my life.Just love, love, love. So
you do know that around New Year'sis Gary's birthday. I know Gary's birthday
party. It was my birthday too. That's why it was fun. We
found out we had the same birthday. And I've never I've done it.
(26:07):
I've done a few of those withGary too. And and you know,
it's three o'clock in the morning,you're looking down at you're watching you go
what happened? That's about what happened. I know, somebody fell off a
barstool, my friend. So youhad this expansive career with a wonderful budget.
Thank you. Barry injured and laterit was acquired by Nestley to travel
(26:27):
the world and do the school andreally have what seemed like the dream job
vice president of Fun and the bestpart because you talked about marketing. Robert
mcdabby is more of a marketing personversus vinnor Well sometimes I think more vintner
should be marketing people. So youwere doing this and doing a lot of
you know, the marketing. You'redoing everything. But they also let you
go to school to learn how tomake wine. Yeah, you were,
(26:51):
And that's so yeah. They youknow, it was back in the in
the day, and maybe it stillexists, but I don't hear about it
a lot where they invested a lotof money and time into employees. And
(27:11):
they were extremely generous with my interestin taking classes at Davis and getting a
degree in viticulture, and we workedaround my work schedule to get that all
done, and you know, theysent me business classes at Stanford and other
(27:33):
schools, and it was a hugeinvestment in employees they wanted to hold on
to. And I don't know ifthat exists much anymore, but it certainly
did back then. Well it worked, you stayed on for a long time,
and it just sounded like a greatexperience. I was lucky. I
was very right place, right time. Yeah, So why don't we talk
(27:57):
about tour wines a little bit andhow you got inspired to start tour wines.
You you left Bearringer and started touringin the year two thousand, I
believe it was for two thousand andone, and so tell us about tell
us about that transition and what inspiredyou, but also what was your vision
when you were starting it. Yeah, well, you know, I came
(28:19):
up in seventy seven and that's whenI started at Behringer. I would have
started a winery at that time ifI had the money and I would have
worked for Behringer, I would have, but I was I had no money,
and I was losing money making alittle bit in the jazz club business.
So when I came up to NAPA, initially I was sleeping in the
(28:41):
in the state park, and youknow, I needed a job, and
thank god, it was a jobthat, you know, was an amazing
job and amazing couple decades. ButI would have loved to have had the
money and dot winery when I firstcame up. But as it worked out,
(29:04):
we sold the company Barringer, andI was an executive that did get
really nice compensation. So finally aftertwenty four years, I was able to
have enough money to do what Ialways wanted to do, and that was
to start my own winery. We'reone, family owned we don't have any
(29:27):
partners, and we do exactly whatwe want and what we dream about doing.
The board of directors is a mirrorthat my wife and I look into
now and then, so we don'thave to, you know, sit down
and do a thousand meetings, andwe don't have to make wines that fit
(29:48):
what some marketing person thinks is theright wines to make. We make wines
we believe in and work with growers. All our growers are our family owned
growers too, So we don't makea lot of wine. I think we've
got about fifteen one hundred point wineso far. The critics have been very
(30:11):
kind and business I wrote the businessplan on a napkin. It was basically,
you know, swing for the fences, get into the best vineyards you
possibly can, and treat those wineswith as much respect as you can,
(30:32):
and it's ended up working extremely well. Again, I'm a very lucky person
to have started when I started,and to be working with growers like Andy
Beck's staffer and the Phillips Bruce andHeather and others that are growing some of
(30:53):
the best grapes in the world.You know, tour been fascinated by Andy
Beckstaffer, you know, ever sincehis cover on Wine Spectator and the whole
to the Tokalone legacy, which youreally you really explain well in the book.
(31:14):
And oh good, I'm a waityto hear that I was fascinated by
it because I've always felt like Iwant to do like the family history of
Tokalone and what began, like likethe Wendy clone, you know, like
where it begat for our listeners,and we have some European ones as well,
explain why this Tokealone is such animportant and the BackStar for Tokealone Vineyard
(31:36):
is so important, and how certainpeople can only use that name on their
labels. Please you. Yeah,let's see if we can get through that
history fairly quickly and negative is notas complicated as it probably is. But
let's start with the beginning of Toplonwas in eighteen sixty eight, a gentleman
(31:56):
by the name of Crab came outand planned He ended up having four hundred
different varieties I think at one timeand before the turn of the century,
it was, if not the largest, in the top three biggest vineyards,
most well known vineyards in the UnitedStates, or high end wines. The
(32:20):
wines are being shipped all over theworld, not just in the United States,
and were respected. They were winningtastings in Paris and London, but
it was a very famous vineyard.Then you go from that century to the
twentieth century and you have world wars, you have prohibition. Actually, there
(32:44):
were over two hundred wineries before theturn of the century, eighteen hundreds to
nineteen and by nineteen sixty there wereless than fifty or even forty in Napa
Valley. So time had really shrunkthe industry. And it wasn't until the
(33:08):
seventies that you had this huge resurgencean interest in Napa Valley. Along with
that you had the Paris tasting too, where Time magazine wrote the story that
in Paris blind tasted the Napa Valleywines best of the best of France.
(33:29):
And this is we can tell thatstory again because it was redone in two
thousand and twenty one in the NapaValley here and the same thing happened.
But Tokelon through the first part ofthe twentieth century, this sort of it
would end up in bb Private Reserve, the Bullue Private Reserve, and other
(33:50):
programs. But Andy Beckstaffer had theopportunity to buy it in around nineteen ninety
four, I think it was.And Andy figured out that he needed to
plant different clones to cabernet in there. He needed to respect the vineyard.
And what Andy's plan, which changedeverything for growers, was to have not
(34:15):
make wine himself. He wanted toremain a grower, but to sell his
grapes to the wineries he considered makingthe best wines. So he created this
little stable of wineries that started toget these hundred point scores on the wat
from the grapes that he was growing. And you know, Andy then became
(34:40):
really the disciple of heritage vineyards inthe NAPA Alley and created formulas for icing
grapes that were really revolutionary at thetime and still are today. There's no
(35:00):
way you can look around it.He's probably the most celebrated grape grower in
North America. I don't think therecould be anybody that might take that mantle
away from him. But Tokelon itselfis about eighty His Toklon is eighty three
acres part of the original Crab project. There are other growers around that have
(35:23):
pieces of property that were part ofthe original Toklon, which I believe was
about two hundred acres if you takeit all, and it might be a
little bit more of the original crab. What the battle today is, and
I think this is where you weretrying to get me to go is today
(35:46):
there's the battle between Tokalon the brandbecause the Constellation Mandabi group look at Toklon
and legally look at it as abrand, so it doesn't necessar sssarily have
to come from a specific area orvineyard. In Andy's argument, ext offers
(36:07):
argument is toklon should be a place, it should be defined, and that
definition should take in the term toklon. So where we are right now is
a bit of a battle. There'sskirmishes now and then, and then there's
some big battles on the use oftoklon. Is it a place which Andy
(36:35):
grapes from. Andy's Toklon is aplace it's very defined, or is it
a brand where grapes from any placeessentially could be called toklon. It's very
interesting. We want to just notethat in that reprise forty years later of
the Judgment of Paris aka the Judgmentof Napa in twenty twenty one, it
(36:58):
was your twenty sixteen tour beck Stavarto Cologne Cabernet that took top prize.
Yeah, that was a bit ofa surprising. So they redid the Paris
tasting Steven Spurrier, who was partof the original and Patricia Gallagher, the
two of them had put together theoriginal in seventy six, so they did
(37:21):
it again and for the last timebecause Stephen is passed in twenty one and
you know, I got selected asone of the top ten red wines.
And I was a little odd andcertainly very proud of that and moved on
from France. Labelisk Ass from Francewas in there, Scarecrow and Colgan from
(37:47):
Napa Valley. They had Ornelia Believefrom Italy. So it was the top
top red Wines ten of the world, chosen by Masters of Wine, and
somehow I snuck in there and withthe topelawn and I went to the tasting
going just get me into fifth place. I'll be so happy, just get
(38:13):
me into fifth place. With thatkind of you know, racetrack and those
kind of thoroughbreds in there, andsomehow we ended up winning that tasting.
I'm still sorry, and I waswith Andy at the time. We're standing
together. I think my jaw wasa little bit closer to the ground than
Andy's was reprized. There's a greatphoto of you and Andy when you found
(38:37):
out the news in reflections of inthere, as well as some other really
terrific photos. We were sent twoof your wine to try. We really
want to have more some of them, says Inquire, which makes me wonder.
I mean, the words coveted andcole do come out when they talk
about your wine's tour. We wereblessed to have the Napa Valley shirt any
(39:00):
Kuve Torchiana I'm reading the label heretwenty twenty one, and then last night
we had the Oakville twenty twenty onetour Napa Valley cab. Both were sublime.
Last night was kind of like whoa. You know, we just came
back from Hawaii where we were.You know, there was not a lot
(39:21):
of great wine in Hawaii, sowe were just so like WHOA. We
did we did try wines from theMaui Avia though, yeah, we did,
but it was like coming back toAhaville. You know, Yeah,
it's it's a little hard to drowfine breaks and at least wine breaks in
Hawaii and they do pineapple wine though, yes, but the selections at the
(39:43):
supermarket are just so long and soit was just hard to find anything.
There was like one store where wewere and everything was like, you know,
gastronomic prices. So we really enjoyedyour wines. Talk to us about
your approach and your winemaker to givecred. Jeff Ames as well. Absolute,
Yeah, I've been again fortunate thatI've been able to work with the
(40:07):
same wine maker since the beginning withour brand. We're clocking in a twenty
two years now together. Wow.And Jeff is sort of more that he's
not, you know, a hugetechnician. He's more of an artist and
you know, a little bit ofa savant type when it comes to winemaking.
(40:31):
There's a visit I think the greatwine makers, I don't think.
I feel strongly that the great winemakers that I've run across are ones that
actually love wine. They open alot of wine, they taste a lot
(40:52):
of wine. You know, itdoesn't mean they drink a lot of wine,
but they certainly are curious and they'realways, you know, tasting what
others are doing wherever in the worldto try to understand it. It's a
passion and Jeff's one of those.And one of the reasons why I gravitated
toward him as a wine maker isI've always felt that if if you've got
(41:16):
a winemaker who's a wine geek,if you will, or a cork door,
you definitely have stepped into the rightroom for the right person. Wow.
Great, I love. On thewebsite tour Wines dot com, it
says Jeff Caananapa Valley via Alabama,good Southern boy. In nineteen ninety nine,
(41:37):
I had no bed, no couch. I slept on an egg crate
phone for the first six months.And you said you slept in the park.
So what is it about today?And as it recalled we were interviewing,
I think it was the Ponds oneof the people up in, one
of the founders in Oregon, andthey slept in like their car for a
year, a year before they getestablished. That was his first job.
(42:00):
I think you had to sleep inthe car up there. And maybe if
there's a secret to it, we'rehungry. You got to be at work
on wine business. You know.One of the things about Reflections of a
Ventnor just it is a memoir,but you also take it through the life
cycle of the vine and the andthe winemaker's role because it's done by month,
(42:21):
and you start each chapter reflecting onwhere the vine's life cycle is and
where your head is as a vintnor, which I thought was very interesting because
it's really important to underscore this isa job that doesn't have a day off,
because nature doesn't take a day off, and it's a mercurical Nature's temperamental.
You have to wake up every dayto who knows what's going to be
(42:45):
happening, and particularly in the NAPAand you and you really drive that home
but also in a way that isn'tmake the job burdensome. It's like the
joy of discovery every day, likewhat will nature deliver today? What will
those little buds break? Will thebuds be breaking? You talk about the
mustard season, which is so specialout there. It really conveys that sense
(43:08):
of joy and really why people migratedto Napa and into wine making and viticulture
in the first place. Yeah,thank you for that, well said.
Is you know some people, Uhhave a concept that you know. In
fact, somebody wrote a review ofa friend's book, Ray Isle's book and
(43:31):
a very famous newspaper that had theconcept that winery owners are blotto by noon
and don't really you know, havehave a work ethic and uh, you
know, I travel around, Ihave friends all over the world. I
honestly, if you're doing it rightand you're trying to be successful, I
(43:53):
don't know of a harder job.Maybe a chef running their own kitchen and
restaurant gets close to it. Butit's it's way over. You know,
it's sixty hour work weeks all thetime, and you know it's the day.
The day can start at five o'clockwhen the sun comes up, and
(44:15):
it can still be going on atmidnight if you're out there trying to sell
your wine and entertaining. So it'sit's a if you're doing it right,
unless you're you know, privileged andyou've hired a lot of people to do
all the work for you. Itit's it's a hard job, but if
(44:37):
you love it and and you're passionateabout it. We overuse that word,
but there is the passion factor toit. It's such a rewarding job because
every day you learn something new.You know, it's one of those businesses
(44:58):
and jobs that you're constantly learning.If you ever reach a point where you
feel like you know everything that thereis about wine making and wine, you're
basically sliding backwards. And you know, that makes this job, at least
to me, a job that I'llprobably I'll take to my grave and enjoy
(45:23):
doing because it keeps you challenged andit keeps you curious, and that's a
good thing in life. Yeah.Yeah, And it's such a fluid work
environment too, because you are alwayslearning. Every vintage is different, every
bottle of wine is different. Youknow, it's a never ending learning process
(45:46):
and that's what drew us to wineas well when we started our winery.
And you're right, it is afull time job, but it's more than
that. It's a twenty four hourday job, especially during the peak times
of the year r harvest. Butit's not only harvest, but it's also
the biggest sales period of the year, et cetera. So you're you're doing
literally everything going full throttle all daylong. Yeah. Having helped the small
(46:08):
guys who have the less teams versusthose who have big operations are born to
the vine, have big families.There were a couple of interesting quotes in
the book that you talk to standout. One was, don't let the
suns set on the tourists. That'san Andy Bechstofer one. Andy told me
(46:30):
that one. What does it meanfor our listeners? Yeah, well,
you know, Andy, Andy hasbeen in the valley longer than I have.
He came I think he came about, you know, eight years before
I got here. And back inthe in the early early seventies, the
(46:52):
agg people along with the wine winerypeople, would the growers and the producers
would get together and they had thesemeetings and the mantra Andy used to say.
The mantra that they had was don'tlet the sun be on the tourists
so they can come up, buywines and get them out of the valley.
(47:12):
And look where we are now,it's almost reversed. It's please let
the sun rise on the tourists,keep the mirror as long as you can,
and let's build the shrines to foodand wine for them and keep them
entertained. But back then, entertainingthe tourists and keeping him in the valley
(47:34):
was the last thing that the communitywanted. My how things have changed.
Yeah, just denied that. ThomasKeller wrote one of the forwards to Reflections
of Noor. The other was RobertParker. It's a great place to visit.
We haven't been out there in awhile, and just reading your book
and savoring your two wines, wemade a promise to try to get back
(47:55):
out there. It's been some time, and it would be nice to go
out and meet some of the newerproducers as well, because we you know,
yeah, you need to do that. You definitely should. Maybe you
can do a show out here.Well, we have a couple. Okay,
yeah, we did with the NapaValley Vendors, but it was years
(48:15):
ago, right, yeah, itwas last time we really took a trip
through Napa was twenty seventeen. Soyeah, we did a special then and
they brought us out. Thank you, Napa Valley Vendors. Do it again,
do it again. But we lovedit, but it has been since.
You know, Well, the Vennorsare a great organization to work with,
(48:35):
and they could certainly set up anagenda, but you know, there's
little operations that are kind of funthat maybe aren't so visible in the Vendors
Association, which is a really greatorganization. Yes, that you might visit
too. Absolutely, you come here, you spend a couple of days or
even a week. You barely scratcheda service. Yeah, and most people
(49:00):
people only do that, which istoo bad because there's so much and so
many wonderful family run business is there, including yours. We do want to
before we rerap up, make surewe give a shout out to your your
your your better half. Yeah,partner, partner and wine Susan who has
an esteem estimable career as well asan author, cookbook author. Yeah,
(49:21):
she has a beer to war,so I know, yeah, sou and
you know we've gravitated to I loveto cook, but she's doing most of
the cooking now and I'm ending upwith the dishes these days. So well,
you guys seem like a great partnership, uh, and a loving family
at Taboot because the whole family isinvolved in many of the photos. So
(49:44):
we enjoyed that as well. Andone less you know, is there anyone
that you could say you want togive a shout out to for helping you
become who you are today? Well, you know, Julia for the curiosity,
you know, she she was justso interested in everything, and that
(50:04):
inspired me, you know, Boband Dobby for the persistence to drive and
and and you know, never gettingthe you know, the foot off the
pedal. I really respected that.You know, people like Andre that were
very quiet, but the door wasalways open. You could literally you could
(50:25):
be anybody and if you knew wherehis office was at BAB you could walk
in through that door. It wasnever really shut. Iconoclass like Joe Heights,
who you know, had a veryset vision of Cabernet that you take
(50:45):
some of old Joe's wines from thesixties early seventies, I don't I put
them up with any wines made inthe world any place in the world.
Is some of the great greats they'veheld up that well, well, those
are some people tour and you knowwhat, You're gonna be in that too,
because you brought fun to Napa Valle. You reminded everybody that it's all
(51:07):
about hard work, but it's alsofun. So you know, along with
the words tor, there's fun.So you have achieved your own career as
an icon and we could talk toyou forever, but we've got to wrap
up the show. Oops, you'regoing to have to come out and we'll
talk more. We'll break bread andopen a bottle of wine maybe too.
(51:28):
I think that's a good body.So you've been listening to The Connected Table
Live with Melanie Young and David Ransomand are really fascinating guest tour ken word
is wines or tour Wines tour winesdot com. They're really terrific. And
the book is Reflections of a Vintnerwith Fordes by Robert Perker and Thomas Keller.
(51:50):
Really a terrific read that we encourageeverybody to pick up and you'll be
inspired. Thank you, tour,it's been a pleasure. Thank you Melanie
and David. I hope to seeyour NAPA to NAPA, to always always
NAPA. You've been listening to TheConnected Table Live. We hope you enjoyed
the show and always stay insatiably curious. Thank you.
The topics and opinions expressed in thefollowing show are solely those of the hosts
and their guests and not those ofW FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates.
We make no recommendations or endorsements forradio show programs, services, or
products mentioned on air or on ourweb. No liability, explicit or implied
shall be extended to W FOURCY Radioor its employees are affiliates. Any questions
or comments should be directed to thoseshow hosts. Thank you for choosing W
(00:21):
FOURCY Radio. Welcome to the ConnectedTable Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
(00:46):
Young and David Ransom. You're insatiablycurious culinary couple. We love taking you
around the world to meet the fascinatingpeople in wine, food, spirits,
and hospitality that we meet along theway and introduce you to wonderful destinations and
places to visit, and wines todrink and foods to eat. And today
(01:07):
we're taking you to Napa Valley.Our guest says he's a little old vintner
situated in the heart of Napa Valley, but he's got a big story to
tell, and it's shared in hisnew memoir Reflections of a vintner, stories
and seasonal wisdom from a lifetime inNapa Valley. Our guest today is Tor
(01:29):
ken Ward. He has spent overfifty years in the business, almost like
me, and really was at theforefront of Napa when it was just a
little bitty start up Avia with likemaybe fifty wineries. And how many does
it have now, David oh untoldcounts millions were over two hundred. Yeah,
(01:51):
oh Napa Valley. Yeah, soso they were looking at about over
one thousand brands now, oh athousand. See that's the deception because there's
a lot more brands than our actually, yeah brand. Anyway, it's big
time. So tour Ken, We'rewelcome to the Connected Table. It's my
honor. Thank you. Melanie.Well, you've been on a raider.
(02:15):
Yeah, you've been on a raiderfor a while, okay, and so
when your book just landed in ourmailbox, we're like, yeah, this
is like awesome. So, tourYou've got a big story to tell,
but we always like to start atthe very beginning. And what's really cool
is you grew up in a veryartistic family. Bohemian actually is what surrounded
(02:39):
you. Your dad was a notedwriter, your mother and actress. Talk
to us about your childhood. Well, we had a lot of creative types
wandering in and out of the houseall the time. Dad loved to cook,
which really was something that stayed influentialmost of my life, the passion
(03:00):
for food and adventure in food,and Mom was she was actually a painter.
In most of the life that Ihad with her, she was an
actress on Broadway, refused to dofilm and became a painter. But Dad
(03:23):
was a writer and made a livingwriting. First it was plays, one
play which was his claim to fame, and never really followed up with anything
quite as successful as Cry Havoc inthe forties, which interestingly enough, was
all women cast and it was aboutthe nurses in the Philippines during World War
(03:51):
Two during the Baton March, butit was all women and it went into
Hollywood production later on with again allwomen, And yeah, it was an
interesting life. We had actors,we had musicians because Dad liked music.
We had writers, we had directors. That was that was the environment I
(04:17):
grew up in. It's so cool, kind of like a little bit like
my environment here with my parents werevery theatrical, interesting, that it was
about the Philippine during the Baton March. I just read a book by Grisham.
The Reckoning and the Japanese Death Marchfeatures heavily in that book. I
(04:39):
did read that. That's that's thatwas a really good book. It was
actually anyway, so you actually gotinto music after you actually served in Vietnam.
Speaking of speaking of wars and thankyou for your service, it was,
but you also had an epiphany offood and you invited somebody to her
(05:00):
Why don't you tell us about thatand how you got into how you got
inspired to get into the food world. Yeah, I think that's in the
chapter in the book about salt.I was in an area called Vung Tao
and I ran into it the pxof Vietnamese who loved food, and we
(05:21):
started talking as English was excellent,and he talked me into doing something I
probably wouldn't do today, But backthen I was I was bulletproof, invincible.
He said, come off base.I was actually working the hospital,
so it would be away from thehospital into an area that was not protected
(05:46):
in any way whatsoever, and I'lloffer you one of the most interesting culinary
experiences you may have ever had.If you bring a bottle of Johnny Walker
black. So I went into civilianclothes, which I should have. I
went off base and met him inan area that I shouldn't have been in,
(06:09):
but he took me to the coastand vum pal and we watched the
fishing boats come in. He wentout to the fishing boats and literally picked
out the fresh seafood that they werebringing in and put that into a protected
area on the shore. And weliterally just had raw seafoods. It was
(06:30):
salt and lime juice, dipped inand drank Johnny Walker black until I needed
to get back to the base.But I have never forgotten one how absolutely
delicious that fresh seafood was. I'dnever had anything like that, And the
experience of seeing the boats come inand then sharing a moment with somebody that
(06:57):
was Vietnamese and just talking about lifein general together. I never forgot that
experience and how important salt was andthe lemon was to the raw fish.
You talk about that also in thebook about when people express displeasure in certain
styles of cabernet. You talk aboutadding salt. I think it is right.
(07:19):
Yeah, Yeah, I was veryfortunate, and I'm sure, we'll
talk a little bit about Julia Childand Madeline Camon. But Julia and Madeline
drove they actually taught me how importantsalt is when when you're when you're serving
(07:40):
and working with wines like cabernet.Cabernet tends to have a tannic side to
it. Winemakers contain that, butthe grape itself tends to have a certain
amount of tann and phenologs to it. And it's as I do this occasionally
when I'm doing take things, whensomebody will say, well, that's a
(08:01):
big wine, I'll say, well, let's get some salt, put it
on the on the wrist, firsttaste the wine, then lick the salt
and taste the wine again. Andif you've never done that, you will
be shocked on how it softens thosetannins and softens the wine. And I
(08:24):
always tell people, I say,okay, you go to a steakhouse,
what do they do with those steaks? Besides cook them? They add usually
salt and butter or some sort offat to it. So it's one of
those simple easy secrets to peril biggerwine a cabernet with almost any dish.
(08:46):
Actually, I thought that was aninteresting reveal. Another interesting reveal because we
know you from the wine role foryour long career with Barringer and more recently
as the founder of Tour Wines.But you ran a jazz club for many
years and had some really notable actsbefore entering the world of wine. And
(09:07):
we learned that you and your budRobert Parker or Neil Young fans. Yeah,
yeah, well we weren't and Ishouldn't say this, but we were
at one of his concerts raising moneyfor the school that his kids were in,
Bridge School, and he said hewanted to meet with us, and
(09:31):
we went backstage, watched a fewacts backstage, and he never showed up,
never came out for whatever reason.So Bob gave up on Neil.
I'm still a Neil Young fan.But before I got into the wine business,
I had a jazz club with afew guys down in southern California,
(09:52):
and we very fortunate to bring inmusicians like Oscar Peterson, Stan Getz.
The CTI people actually did other actson the side, like one night we
did Tom Wade's and Bonnie Ray andI looked at my booking sheets for that
and the cost of the two together. I think was right around or under
ten thousand dollars. Wow, whendo they charge now, my bonnie?
(10:20):
Yeah? Wait and rate like that. Those are fun days. Yeah,
there were fun days. So theywere fun days. But then you decided
to really go into the fun lifeand you became, as you say,
the vice president of fund. Youyou caught the wine bug. You know
a lot of people like you.And David's father who worked for you know,
(10:41):
Big Blue IBM, and decided tohe caught the wine bug and decided
to run open a winery. Alot of people come from other professions and
get the wine bug. What wasthe bug bite that got you? Yeah,
David, I didn't know your dadwas had a winery's And that's an
(11:03):
interesting story. Yeah, we actuallystarted. We were all grown when we
decided to purchase it, and ithad basically stopped making wine in New York
it is, and so we boughtit and we ran it for about twenty
years or so and then finally unloadedit on somebody else. But it was
but it was a lot of fun. We were New York's top award winning
winery for many years, so that'show we met. We had a great
(11:24):
run and lots of the way.Yeah, but it was also good for
you, good for you, yeahyeah. Well, you know, back
when I got the wine bug,which was in the seventies, I was
I love to cook, love food, and I was cooking for a group
that had access to the best winesin the world at that time that were
(11:46):
being imported into the States. Andthey'd bring these incredible wines, most of
them Old World, most of themFrench, to the table and I just
absolutely blown away. Uh. Ihad to read, I had to research,
I had to know everything I couldabout those wines, the wine business,
(12:09):
and I had I was dating somebodyat Stanford at that time, so
I combined trips to Stanford. Iwas in southern California, UH, to
Napa Valley and UH and I becamethe Napa Valley Northern California wine expert in
my little group. So those experiencesof sitting down in those days, you
(12:33):
sat down with Joe Heights, withAndre Schilicheff, with Bob, Bob and
Dobbie, even the principles sat downwith you or showed up in the tasting
rooms UH and in a very smallwinery, were very very accessible. You
would spend hours with these people,listening to their passion and their stories,
(12:56):
and you'd look around and see thebeauty of Napa Valley and you had the
passion, you had the dreamers,you had the farmers, and you had
the beauty here. I just oneday came up after running Beta breakers,
applied for two jobs that I heardwere available. One gave me a call
(13:20):
the next day, and I tookthe job. Just threw everything in the
back of my car and drove uphere and never looked back, you know,
tour. This morning, I wasup rather early, and I went
into my father's cellar which we're gatheringand packing, and he has a Napa
caps from the nineteen seventies. Oh, some of those are really good.
(13:46):
And yeah, a lot of earlyLouis Martini, and we had some Beaulieu.
We had a Bullio la Tour.I don't know if we still have
it. It was fascinating. ButI thought about you, and I thought
about Napavent and how much has changed, and what was Baroner like then?
And where did you You worked therefor thirty years, right or twenty seven
(14:07):
years? Is about twenty It isabout twenty four years. Yeah, I
was the resident wine geek and became, as I said to most of my
friends, and it was sort ofmy internal title vice president in charge of
all the fun because they were sendingme to Europe every year to sit down
(14:28):
with wine makers, bring fresh ideasback to winemaking department. And during that
process and Melanie, I think you'llthis will sort of strike a chord with
Hugh. Back in the seventies andeven into the early eighties, the hospitality
in the United States was very different, as was the food scene in the
(14:54):
United States. You go to awine growing area in France, let's say,
with usually a Meshlin two or threestar restaurant, and in all that
focus on fresh produce, on creativityin the kitchen, and of course the
wine that did not really exist certainlyin Napa and in any other wine growing
(15:16):
area that I'm aware of in theUnited States or maybe this hemisphere, and
people like myself, people like RobertMndovi and others, said we have to
bring this back to the United States, to Napa Valley. So Bob had
(15:37):
very Mandavi had very aggressive, startedto develop very aggressive and interesting culinary programs,
initially showcasing French chefs. My takeon it was to showcase American chefs
and to educate American chefs. SoI started culinary program that introduced me to
(16:00):
Julia Child, and then we talkedMadeline Cammon into coming up and running.
I co founded a school for Americanchess with her at Barringer and we ran
that for about twelve years. Sothis whole concept about wine and food,
hospitality, entertainment was in the lateseventies kind of new and groundbreaking. Obviously,
(16:27):
when people come to Napa Valley,now, that's what they expect,
and that's what the reputation of NapaValley, that's what makes Napa Valley such
a great destination for those that lovefood and wine. It was not like
that fifty years ago at all.It was blue collar. We were farmers
(16:52):
more than we were entertainers or celebritywine makers. You know, it really
was the Wild West much more thanyou think it was, because there were
there were very few people actually therefull time making wine. Right And you
know, Toy, you actually talkabout Bob Mundavi in your book quite a
bit, and what a visionary hewas. Why don't you tell us about
(17:15):
your relationship with him? Yeah,you know, candidly, Bob and I
did a lot of stuff together.Served on boards. I served on some
of his UH. He worked onsome boards that that I established. But
in all candor, we were neverreally uber close, very very close,
(17:36):
but our professional lives ran into UH. We we bumped a lot UH and
and I was always owed by hisHe had a theme which was Napa Valley
wines are as good as any winesin the world, and he said that
(17:59):
time and time again. It wasa persistent message, and everything that he
did was to drive home that point. If there was a large audience and
Bob was there, he would bethe first to stand up and to give
that recitation. He was a verydriven person, high energy. One of
(18:21):
my favorite stories, I don't thinkI put it in the book. Bob
used to take his his top lieutenantswith him to Europe every year so that
they could experience what he called thegood life, which is the wine and
food in the growing areas. AndBob what they used to do at lunch
(18:41):
when they got off the bus,they'd find out who was serving the wine
at the lunch spot and pay him, tip him extra money so that he
could keep filling Bob's glass, sothat Bob would slow down a little bit.
You did put that in the book, and that made me smile.
He was just such a you know, he was a visionary. I honestly
(19:06):
think he was more of a marketingperson than a wine maker. But he
knew what the directions that we neededto go. He put excellence and the
pursuit of it at the very topof his agenda. He was a true
leader. And that's why I thinkthat we look back and there's nobody in
(19:30):
the United States in the last hundredyears that's been more influential than Bob and
Dobby. He was singular. Hecertainly was. You know, it's funny
talking about his drinking habits. TheWine Spectator a number of years ago queried
a bunch of Napa Velly winemakers abouthow much wine they drank every day and
Bob and they asked Bob and Margretwhat they drank, and they said at
(19:53):
least a bottle, probably more.And a daily massage. He had,
Yes, he did both of those. Yeah, and you know he lived
to a ripe old age. Youknow. He and let's just talk about
while we're on it, because youreally often have to talk about Julia at
the same time because Julia Child andRobert mc dabby established the American Institute of
Wine and Food. And you know, you say that you only were kind
(20:15):
of in and out of his life, but you know he respected you enough
tour to have you helped start bothAmerican Institute of Wine Food and Kopeiah.
He puts you on a plane withhim to go get try to get money
from Howard Schultz at Starbucks. Youhad some wonderful stories I did. I
was blessed to know both Bob andDobby quite well through my work with the
(20:36):
Jamespear Foundation, But even more soJulia. Your anecdotes about her were so
endearing and then of course they're heramazingly uh, her weird antagonistic relationship with
Madeline. They were insiders know that, but share for the people who don't
know a little bit about her.And also in fairness, also Madeline came
(20:59):
in, who you say is underestimatedin the industry. Yeah, and well,
Julia was more of a friend thanBob was in my life. And
when Julia and I got together,we talked everything. We talked politics,
we talked people, We talked asmany out subjects outside wine and food as
(21:25):
we did wine and food. Boband I basically just talked business and wine
and food. But Julia was justso inspiring anytime. And you probably Melanie
might remember this. And Julia wasaround a bunch of chefs and there was
a meal being prepared, she wouldget back in that kitchen and talk to
(21:45):
them. Madeline would probably sit down. And you know, I adore Madeline.
I think she is one of thegreats. Her books are absolutely amazing.
She may be one of the greatculinary teachers of the last century.
Hard and demanding, but unbelievably giftedin that area. But if Madlin was
(22:11):
having a meal in the chefs arein the kitchen, she probably wouldn't go
back, and if they came out, she would probably criticize them and tell
them what was wrong. And yeah, I thought that was funny. Yeah,
two different personalities. Julia was,you know, sort of warm,
inviting, curious and asking questions andlistening. And Madeline was was was always
(22:38):
teaching and always telling and would veryeasily tell you the flaws as much as
she'd give you a compliment. Well, your stories of both were really trivic
and just to recap with Madeline cameand you established the bar in your School
of American Chefs, which I thinkran for about a decade or so.
(23:00):
Right, and you discovered Gary Danko, who was a protege of Madeline's who
ended up coming to work for Baronjer and Runney in the restaurant. Right,
that's right. I mean, that'sa fun story for me to look
back on. Is I had thisand you'll know some of the people in
the stories. I had this revolvingchef program where I would go to Johnson
(23:23):
and Wales and we had the CaliforniaCulinary Institute at the time and a few
other schools. And I didn't doit with the CIA, but I did
it with a lot of these youngculinary schools. We would go back,
judge them on their ability of pairingwine with their food, and then bring
that chef to the winery for fiveto six months to cook and experiment and
(23:45):
develop programs. Well, I wastold by Mary Reeseley, who you might
know as a teacher in San Francisco. Matt. Mary called me and she
said, Tor, you know,Madam's going to be out. She loves
wine, she loves the wine business, and you might consider doing a dinner
up at the winery to celebrate her, and I said, let's do it,
(24:08):
and Madelon came up. I explainedthe program that we had revolving chefs.
She said, well, I wantone of my chefs to come out
and to participate. So I nicelysaid yes. Didn't expect to hear from
her, but I did. Acouple months later she said, I've got
a chef. He's coming out intwo months, and you don't say no
(24:33):
to Madeline. I didn't have aplace, but I made a place for
him, and it was Gary Danko. And in a short story, Gary's
ability to cook was far beyond anyof the chefs I'd worked with up until
that point. I mean, hewas brilliant from the day that he stepped
(24:56):
into the winery and ran our programsfor a bit six years. Actually had
a restaurant up at Chetta souver Ringfor a short while too, and we
literally encouraged him to move on tohis own restaurants, which he did obviously,
and because he could expose his talentto a much broader audience. Unbelievably
(25:19):
gifted chef who Madeline. Anyway,we could tell stories about Madeline and Gary
forever. I have very fond memoriesof both of them. Well, we
never got to interview Madeline when shewas alive, but and we had still
have an interview Gary Dago, andwe love his restaurant. We haven't been
to San Francisco in ages. Wetend ed up in Europe. Love him.
One of my funnest New Year's Evesever, it was Gary and his
(25:44):
partner in my friend Valerie. Ohmy god, I've never left so hard
with those guys in my life.Just love, love, love. So
you do know that around New Year'sis Gary's birthday. I know Gary's birthday
party. It was my birthday too. That's why it was fun. We
found out we had the same birthday. And I've never I've done it.
(26:07):
I've done a few of those withGary too. And and you know,
it's three o'clock in the morning,you're looking down at you're watching you go
what happened? That's about what happened. I know, somebody fell off a
barstool, my friend. So youhad this expansive career with a wonderful budget.
Thank you. Barry injured and laterit was acquired by Nestley to travel
(26:27):
the world and do the school andreally have what seemed like the dream job
vice president of Fun and the bestpart because you talked about marketing. Robert
mcdabby is more of a marketing personversus vinnor Well sometimes I think more vintner
should be marketing people. So youwere doing this and doing a lot of
you know, the marketing. You'redoing everything. But they also let you
go to school to learn how tomake wine. Yeah, you were,
(26:51):
And that's so yeah. They youknow, it was back in the in
the day, and maybe it stillexists, but I don't hear about it
a lot where they invested a lotof money and time into employees. And
(27:11):
they were extremely generous with my interestin taking classes at Davis and getting a
degree in viticulture, and we workedaround my work schedule to get that all
done, and you know, theysent me business classes at Stanford and other
(27:33):
schools, and it was a hugeinvestment in employees they wanted to hold on
to. And I don't know ifthat exists much anymore, but it certainly
did back then. Well it worked, you stayed on for a long time,
and it just sounded like a greatexperience. I was lucky. I
was very right place, right time. Yeah, So why don't we talk
(27:57):
about tour wines a little bit andhow you got inspired to start tour wines.
You you left Bearringer and started touringin the year two thousand, I
believe it was for two thousand andone, and so tell us about tell
us about that transition and what inspiredyou, but also what was your vision
when you were starting it. Yeah, well, you know, I came
(28:19):
up in seventy seven and that's whenI started at Behringer. I would have
started a winery at that time ifI had the money and I would have
worked for Behringer, I would have, but I was I had no money,
and I was losing money making alittle bit in the jazz club business.
So when I came up to NAPA, initially I was sleeping in the
(28:41):
in the state park, and youknow, I needed a job, and
thank god, it was a jobthat, you know, was an amazing
job and amazing couple decades. ButI would have loved to have had the
money and dot winery when I firstcame up. But as it worked out,
(29:04):
we sold the company Barringer, andI was an executive that did get
really nice compensation. So finally aftertwenty four years, I was able to
have enough money to do what Ialways wanted to do, and that was
to start my own winery. We'reone, family owned we don't have any
(29:27):
partners, and we do exactly whatwe want and what we dream about doing.
The board of directors is a mirrorthat my wife and I look into
now and then, so we don'thave to, you know, sit down
and do a thousand meetings, andwe don't have to make wines that fit
(29:48):
what some marketing person thinks is theright wines to make. We make wines
we believe in and work with growers. All our growers are our family owned
growers too, So we don't makea lot of wine. I think we've
got about fifteen one hundred point wineso far. The critics have been very
(30:11):
kind and business I wrote the businessplan on a napkin. It was basically,
you know, swing for the fences, get into the best vineyards you
possibly can, and treat those wineswith as much respect as you can,
(30:32):
and it's ended up working extremely well. Again, I'm a very lucky person
to have started when I started,and to be working with growers like Andy
Beck's staffer and the Phillips Bruce andHeather and others that are growing some of
(30:53):
the best grapes in the world.You know, tour been fascinated by Andy
Beckstaffer, you know, ever sincehis cover on Wine Spectator and the whole
to the Tokalone legacy, which youreally you really explain well in the book.
(31:14):
And oh good, I'm a waityto hear that I was fascinated by
it because I've always felt like Iwant to do like the family history of
Tokalone and what began, like likethe Wendy clone, you know, like
where it begat for our listeners,and we have some European ones as well,
explain why this Tokealone is such animportant and the BackStar for Tokealone Vineyard
(31:36):
is so important, and how certainpeople can only use that name on their
labels. Please you. Yeah,let's see if we can get through that
history fairly quickly and negative is notas complicated as it probably is. But
let's start with the beginning of Toplonwas in eighteen sixty eight, a gentleman
(31:56):
by the name of Crab came outand planned He ended up having four hundred
different varieties I think at one timeand before the turn of the century,
it was, if not the largest, in the top three biggest vineyards,
most well known vineyards in the UnitedStates, or high end wines. The
(32:20):
wines are being shipped all over theworld, not just in the United States,
and were respected. They were winningtastings in Paris and London, but
it was a very famous vineyard.Then you go from that century to the
twentieth century and you have world wars, you have prohibition. Actually, there
(32:44):
were over two hundred wineries before theturn of the century, eighteen hundreds to
nineteen and by nineteen sixty there wereless than fifty or even forty in Napa
Valley. So time had really shrunkthe industry. And it wasn't until the
(33:08):
seventies that you had this huge resurgencean interest in Napa Valley. Along with
that you had the Paris tasting too, where Time magazine wrote the story that
in Paris blind tasted the Napa Valleywines best of the best of France.
(33:29):
And this is we can tell thatstory again because it was redone in two
thousand and twenty one in the NapaValley here and the same thing happened.
But Tokelon through the first part ofthe twentieth century, this sort of it
would end up in bb Private Reserve, the Bullue Private Reserve, and other
(33:50):
programs. But Andy Beckstaffer had theopportunity to buy it in around nineteen ninety
four, I think it was.And Andy figured out that he needed to
plant different clones to cabernet in there. He needed to respect the vineyard.
And what Andy's plan, which changedeverything for growers, was to have not
(34:15):
make wine himself. He wanted toremain a grower, but to sell his
grapes to the wineries he considered makingthe best wines. So he created this
little stable of wineries that started toget these hundred point scores on the wat
from the grapes that he was growing. And you know, Andy then became
(34:40):
really the disciple of heritage vineyards inthe NAPA Alley and created formulas for icing
grapes that were really revolutionary at thetime and still are today. There's no
(35:00):
way you can look around it.He's probably the most celebrated grape grower in
North America. I don't think therecould be anybody that might take that mantle
away from him. But Tokelon itselfis about eighty His Toklon is eighty three
acres part of the original Crab project. There are other growers around that have
(35:23):
pieces of property that were part ofthe original Toklon, which I believe was
about two hundred acres if you takeit all, and it might be a
little bit more of the original crab. What the battle today is, and
I think this is where you weretrying to get me to go is today
(35:46):
there's the battle between Tokalon the brandbecause the Constellation Mandabi group look at Toklon
and legally look at it as abrand, so it doesn't necessar sssarily have
to come from a specific area orvineyard. In Andy's argument, ext offers
(36:07):
argument is toklon should be a place, it should be defined, and that
definition should take in the term toklon. So where we are right now is
a bit of a battle. There'sskirmishes now and then, and then there's
some big battles on the use oftoklon. Is it a place which Andy
(36:35):
grapes from. Andy's Toklon is aplace it's very defined, or is it
a brand where grapes from any placeessentially could be called toklon. It's very
interesting. We want to just notethat in that reprise forty years later of
the Judgment of Paris aka the Judgmentof Napa in twenty twenty one, it
(36:58):
was your twenty sixteen tour beck Stavarto Cologne Cabernet that took top prize.
Yeah, that was a bit ofa surprising. So they redid the Paris
tasting Steven Spurrier, who was partof the original and Patricia Gallagher, the
two of them had put together theoriginal in seventy six, so they did
(37:21):
it again and for the last timebecause Stephen is passed in twenty one and
you know, I got selected asone of the top ten red wines.
And I was a little odd andcertainly very proud of that and moved on
from France. Labelisk Ass from Francewas in there, Scarecrow and Colgan from
(37:47):
Napa Valley. They had Ornelia Believefrom Italy. So it was the top
top red Wines ten of the world, chosen by Masters of Wine, and
somehow I snuck in there and withthe topelawn and I went to the tasting
going just get me into fifth place. I'll be so happy, just get
(38:13):
me into fifth place. With thatkind of you know, racetrack and those
kind of thoroughbreds in there, andsomehow we ended up winning that tasting.
I'm still sorry, and I waswith Andy at the time. We're standing
together. I think my jaw wasa little bit closer to the ground than
Andy's was reprized. There's a greatphoto of you and Andy when you found
(38:37):
out the news in reflections of inthere, as well as some other really
terrific photos. We were sent twoof your wine to try. We really
want to have more some of them, says Inquire, which makes me wonder.
I mean, the words coveted andcole do come out when they talk
about your wine's tour. We wereblessed to have the Napa Valley shirt any
(39:00):
Kuve Torchiana I'm reading the label heretwenty twenty one, and then last night
we had the Oakville twenty twenty onetour Napa Valley cab. Both were sublime.
Last night was kind of like whoa. You know, we just came
back from Hawaii where we were.You know, there was not a lot
(39:21):
of great wine in Hawaii, sowe were just so like WHOA. We
did we did try wines from theMaui Avia though, yeah, we did,
but it was like coming back toAhaville. You know, Yeah,
it's it's a little hard to drowfine breaks and at least wine breaks in
Hawaii and they do pineapple wine though, yes, but the selections at the
(39:43):
supermarket are just so long and soit was just hard to find anything.
There was like one store where wewere and everything was like, you know,
gastronomic prices. So we really enjoyedyour wines. Talk to us about
your approach and your winemaker to givecred. Jeff Ames as well. Absolute,
Yeah, I've been again fortunate thatI've been able to work with the
(40:07):
same wine maker since the beginning withour brand. We're clocking in a twenty
two years now together. Wow.And Jeff is sort of more that he's
not, you know, a hugetechnician. He's more of an artist and
you know, a little bit ofa savant type when it comes to winemaking.
(40:31):
There's a visit I think the greatwine makers, I don't think.
I feel strongly that the great winemakers that I've run across are ones that
actually love wine. They open alot of wine, they taste a lot
(40:52):
of wine. You know, itdoesn't mean they drink a lot of wine,
but they certainly are curious and they'realways, you know, tasting what
others are doing wherever in the worldto try to understand it. It's a
passion and Jeff's one of those.And one of the reasons why I gravitated
toward him as a wine maker isI've always felt that if if you've got
(41:16):
a winemaker who's a wine geek,if you will, or a cork door,
you definitely have stepped into the rightroom for the right person. Wow.
Great, I love. On thewebsite tour Wines dot com, it
says Jeff Caananapa Valley via Alabama,good Southern boy. In nineteen ninety nine,
(41:37):
I had no bed, no couch. I slept on an egg crate
phone for the first six months.And you said you slept in the park.
So what is it about today?And as it recalled we were interviewing,
I think it was the Ponds oneof the people up in, one
of the founders in Oregon, andthey slept in like their car for a
year, a year before they getestablished. That was his first job.
(42:00):
I think you had to sleep inthe car up there. And maybe if
there's a secret to it, we'rehungry. You got to be at work
on wine business. You know.One of the things about Reflections of a
Ventnor just it is a memoir,but you also take it through the life
cycle of the vine and the andthe winemaker's role because it's done by month,
(42:21):
and you start each chapter reflecting onwhere the vine's life cycle is and
where your head is as a vintnor, which I thought was very interesting because
it's really important to underscore this isa job that doesn't have a day off,
because nature doesn't take a day off, and it's a mercurical Nature's temperamental.
You have to wake up every dayto who knows what's going to be
(42:45):
happening, and particularly in the NAPAand you and you really drive that home
but also in a way that isn'tmake the job burdensome. It's like the
joy of discovery every day, likewhat will nature deliver today? What will
those little buds break? Will thebuds be breaking? You talk about the
mustard season, which is so specialout there. It really conveys that sense
(43:08):
of joy and really why people migratedto Napa and into wine making and viticulture
in the first place. Yeah,thank you for that, well said.
Is you know some people, Uhhave a concept that you know. In
fact, somebody wrote a review ofa friend's book, Ray Isle's book and
(43:31):
a very famous newspaper that had theconcept that winery owners are blotto by noon
and don't really you know, havehave a work ethic and uh, you
know, I travel around, Ihave friends all over the world. I
honestly, if you're doing it rightand you're trying to be successful, I
(43:53):
don't know of a harder job.Maybe a chef running their own kitchen and
restaurant gets close to it. Butit's it's way over. You know,
it's sixty hour work weeks all thetime, and you know it's the day.
The day can start at five o'clockwhen the sun comes up, and
(44:15):
it can still be going on atmidnight if you're out there trying to sell
your wine and entertaining. So it'sit's a if you're doing it right,
unless you're you know, privileged andyou've hired a lot of people to do
all the work for you. Itit's it's a hard job, but if
(44:37):
you love it and and you're passionateabout it. We overuse that word,
but there is the passion factor toit. It's such a rewarding job because
every day you learn something new.You know, it's one of those businesses
(44:58):
and jobs that you're constantly learning.If you ever reach a point where you
feel like you know everything that thereis about wine making and wine, you're
basically sliding backwards. And you know, that makes this job, at least
to me, a job that I'llprobably I'll take to my grave and enjoy
(45:23):
doing because it keeps you challenged andit keeps you curious, and that's a
good thing in life. Yeah.Yeah, And it's such a fluid work
environment too, because you are alwayslearning. Every vintage is different, every
bottle of wine is different. Youknow, it's a never ending learning process
(45:46):
and that's what drew us to wineas well when we started our winery.
And you're right, it is afull time job, but it's more than
that. It's a twenty four hourday job, especially during the peak times
of the year r harvest. Butit's not only harvest, but it's also
the biggest sales period of the year, et cetera. So you're you're doing
literally everything going full throttle all daylong. Yeah. Having helped the small
(46:08):
guys who have the less teams versusthose who have big operations are born to
the vine, have big families.There were a couple of interesting quotes in
the book that you talk to standout. One was, don't let the
suns set on the tourists. That'san Andy Bechstofer one. Andy told me
(46:30):
that one. What does it meanfor our listeners? Yeah, well,
you know, Andy, Andy hasbeen in the valley longer than I have.
He came I think he came about, you know, eight years before
I got here. And back inthe in the early early seventies, the
(46:52):
agg people along with the wine winerypeople, would the growers and the producers
would get together and they had thesemeetings and the mantra Andy used to say.
The mantra that they had was don'tlet the sun be on the tourists
so they can come up, buywines and get them out of the valley.
(47:12):
And look where we are now,it's almost reversed. It's please let
the sun rise on the tourists,keep the mirror as long as you can,
and let's build the shrines to foodand wine for them and keep them
entertained. But back then, entertainingthe tourists and keeping him in the valley
(47:34):
was the last thing that the communitywanted. My how things have changed.
Yeah, just denied that. ThomasKeller wrote one of the forwards to Reflections
of Noor. The other was RobertParker. It's a great place to visit.
We haven't been out there in awhile, and just reading your book
and savoring your two wines, wemade a promise to try to get back
(47:55):
out there. It's been some time, and it would be nice to go
out and meet some of the newerproducers as well, because we you know,
yeah, you need to do that. You definitely should. Maybe you
can do a show out here.Well, we have a couple. Okay,
yeah, we did with the NapaValley Vendors, but it was years
(48:15):
ago, right, yeah, itwas last time we really took a trip
through Napa was twenty seventeen. Soyeah, we did a special then and
they brought us out. Thank you, Napa Valley Vendors. Do it again,
do it again. But we lovedit, but it has been since.
You know, Well, the Vennorsare a great organization to work with,
(48:35):
and they could certainly set up anagenda, but you know, there's
little operations that are kind of funthat maybe aren't so visible in the Vendors
Association, which is a really greatorganization. Yes, that you might visit
too. Absolutely, you come here, you spend a couple of days or
even a week. You barely scratcheda service. Yeah, and most people
(49:00):
people only do that, which istoo bad because there's so much and so
many wonderful family run business is there, including yours. We do want to
before we rerap up, make surewe give a shout out to your your
your your better half. Yeah,partner, partner and wine Susan who has
an esteem estimable career as well asan author, cookbook author. Yeah,
(49:21):
she has a beer to war,so I know, yeah, sou and
you know we've gravitated to I loveto cook, but she's doing most of
the cooking now and I'm ending upwith the dishes these days. So well,
you guys seem like a great partnership, uh, and a loving family
at Taboot because the whole family isinvolved in many of the photos. So
(49:44):
we enjoyed that as well. Andone less you know, is there anyone
that you could say you want togive a shout out to for helping you
become who you are today? Well, you know, Julia for the curiosity,
you know, she she was justso interested in everything, and that
(50:04):
inspired me, you know, Boband Dobby for the persistence to drive and
and and you know, never gettingthe you know, the foot off the
pedal. I really respected that.You know, people like Andre that were
very quiet, but the door wasalways open. You could literally you could
(50:25):
be anybody and if you knew wherehis office was at BAB you could walk
in through that door. It wasnever really shut. Iconoclass like Joe Heights,
who you know, had a veryset vision of Cabernet that you take
(50:45):
some of old Joe's wines from thesixties early seventies, I don't I put
them up with any wines made inthe world any place in the world.
Is some of the great greats they'veheld up that well, well, those
are some people tour and you knowwhat, You're gonna be in that too,
because you brought fun to Napa Valle. You reminded everybody that it's all
(51:07):
about hard work, but it's alsofun. So you know, along with
the words tor, there's fun.So you have achieved your own career as
an icon and we could talk toyou forever, but we've got to wrap
up the show. Oops, you'regoing to have to come out and we'll
talk more. We'll break bread andopen a bottle of wine maybe too.
(51:28):
I think that's a good body.So you've been listening to The Connected Table
Live with Melanie Young and David Ransomand are really fascinating guest tour ken word
is wines or tour Wines tour winesdot com. They're really terrific. And
the book is Reflections of a Vintnerwith Fordes by Robert Perker and Thomas Keller.
(51:50):
Really a terrific read that we encourageeverybody to pick up and you'll be
inspired. Thank you, tour,it's been a pleasure. Thank you Melanie
and David. I hope to seeyour NAPA to NAPA, to always always
NAPA. You've been listening to TheConnected Table Live. We hope you enjoyed
the show and always stay insatiably curious. Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.