July 29, 2025 • 30 mins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Are you a songwriter?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Are you looking to turn your songwriting passion into a
full time gigig? Whether you are just at the start
of your songwriting journey or a seasoned industry professional, this
show is made for you.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
You.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
We will welcome to the Songwriter Show, bringing together songwriting, news, interviews,
and communitating. Now welcome your houst Sarantos.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Hello, and thank you for tuning in again to the
Songwriter Show. I'm Sarantos, your humble host and a fellow
songwriter with a passion for crafting stories through music. As
someone who's been writing lyrics for as long as I
can remember, I know how every song holds its own
unique story, and that's what brings us together here every
single Tuesday. But today we have a really cool surprise
for you guys. Today, I'm so happy to have on
(00:48):
the show.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Tyler Ham.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Tyler is a twenty year veteran of the creative industry,
having worked for companies including Lucasfilm, Disney, and DreamWorks Animation.
Tyler's work can be seen in films, animation, books, and
toy shelves worldwide.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
And now welcome this week's special guest guest.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Welcome to show, Tyler How are you.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I am great. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
You're welcome. I am super excited. Man, I'm a big
star Wars Disney Nut.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I am too. I am too.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I cannot wait to talk to you, because there is
you know, I have this whole other side to me
where I write screenplays and i just got a couple
on the Blacklist, and I've written like three hundred movies
and I'm finally starting to pitch them.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
It's it's just the coolest thing in the world. So
I think there's a lot of overlap between creative the arts, right,
whether it's writing songs, movies, some of the special effects stuff.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
So I can't wait to talk to you, man.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, no, no, I'm excited. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I guess for the fans, how would you describe yourself? Like,
what what do you do?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So right now I've sort of moved more into consultation,
but I started my career in the visual effects industry
all the way back in two thousand and one. I
started on this kind of what forgotten jetly film called
The One, and from there I went to work on
several companies, several more high profile films, pirates of the
Caribbean franchise was one of them. And after that I
(02:13):
went into the toy industry, where I started as a
sculptor and then worked my way up to creative direction.
And now I sort of kind of have found a
way to look back and use all those skills and
lessons to help mostly startups sort of define their creative
voice going forward.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
That's really cool.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
So are these production companies that are looking to make
films and are trying of is that you're talking about?
Are you talking about only animation or tell us a
little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
No, Actually, it's kind of funny. It's in a weird way.
It's unrelated almost. So I do a lot of mentorship
work with Stanford University with some of their entrepreneur undergrads,
and then they have a startup accelerator called startex which
I work with. And actually I kind of have found
I really enjoy doing some sort of creative consultation and
creative development work for companies that aren't necessarily creative based.
(03:06):
You know, I'm working with a greeting card company, I'm
working with a skincare beauty supply company. They did some
work with a coffee startup, and so it's kind of
interesting getting to take those film and toy industry skills
into different areas and actually kind of seeing how much
translates are a lot more translates than I thought it would.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
So I guess in your industry, right on this show,
we talk about scams, we talk about helping each other out.
Fans are trying to figure out how we make songs.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So in your.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Industry, tell us a little bit for people that don't know,
how are animation or movies, these special effects that obviously is.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Part of your story, how are they made? Like is
there some secret sauce or something.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
It's funny there used to be it used to be
more of a secret sauce because people were still developing
the software. Like when I started, there weren't really things
like home versions of some of these three D softwares.
And you know, fast forward to last year's Academy Awards,
when the animated film Flow took Best Feature Animated Film.
(04:11):
I mean that was based sorry, that was made using
a freeware software that anyone can download, and so sort
of well, there's still I think some proprietary softwarees and
secrets really it's just about practice. It's about practicing sort
of crafting your your art, crafting your story. You're sort
(04:31):
of having a if you're interested in animation, like a
career vision learning about you know, the fundamentals of animation.
So the fundamentals of what makes good animation good haven't
changed since the dawn of animation. You know, concepts like
squash and stretch and all those things are still you
still see those in modern Pixar films, things that you
know Disney was doing back in the twenties and thirties,
(04:54):
so you know what old Walter Lance cartoons and all
of those. So sort of the fundamentals have stayed the same.
It's really just an evolving tool set.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Is there so I can tell you in terms of
like when I got started, I used Logic Pro, Right,
there are an Apple based thing and pro tools is
the other probably the industry standard. So a guy like
me that's starting garage band and Logic Pro and you
just get better and better. Is there an animation software
that if there's a new Bee listening that's like, oh,
I'd like to get into that. Is there some software
(05:24):
that he should start?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So the software I used for entire my entire career,
even transition to use it over from film into the
toy industry. Is called Maya and it's my Autodesk, but
it's actually it's a price of your software and you
have to at lease it. You're paying month to month. Basically,
that software that I was referring to with the movie flow,
that's called Blender, and that's just available online for free.
(05:47):
Not only is it free, has a really rich and
robust tutorial community, a big support community. You know, there's
it's one of those software so you can go on
any one of a bunch of Blender forums. You have
people that are willing to help you out there if
you want to get into digital sculpting, which is also
sort of transitions into the film industry as well. Sort
of the industry standard now is a software called z brush,
(06:10):
But even under those circumstances, there's free versions of that.
I can't recall exactly what the name of it is,
but there's some pretty decent and powerful free sculpting softwares
and I can't remember the name, but it's actually made
by the company that does z brush. So there's tools
for every budget here.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Do you have any role models or mentors, people you
look up to in the industry.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
It's so many, I think, going all the way back
to guys like directors like George Powell, who aren't necessarily
thought much of these days, but he did two of
my favorite early sci fi not early sip of films,
sixty sci fi films. He did The War of the
Worlds and The Time Machine. And you can go back
even further, guys like Ray Harryhausen, who've actually gotten the
(06:55):
meet several times, who was sort of the effects legend
behind Clashed, the Type's Oh my god, Jason, the Argonauts. Yeah, yeah,
it's so kind of there's this weird little mid section
kind of between King Kong and Star Wars almost where
I guess it was a little past King Kong. But
Ray Harryhausen, he is the bridge between those those two worlds.
(07:17):
So you have all the sinbad films. So it's hard
to it's hard to make a list of people you
look up to and not sort of add those masterminds
on there, you know, without even sending a little cliche,
like the Harry Houses, the George Lucases, the Willis O'Brien's,
Like I said, George Powell, who was a little less.
A great film historian named Bob Burns was a good
(07:39):
mentor of mine when I started sort of transitioning from
filmwork into toy sculpture. Bob's still live, in fact, it
just celebrated his ninetieth birthday. Yeah, so that would be
you know guys like also like Phil Tippett of course
would be one. There's really it's one of those questions
where he could probably answer for twenty minutes to yeah,
thirty minutes and then ten minutes later kind of do
(08:00):
like oh yeah, and Rick Baker and the short answers. Yes,
there are plenty of role models and inspirations.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
With your toy background.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
If I wanted to make a little Sorranto's toy that
just ran around pretending he knows how to do.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
Everything, how would I get started with that? If I
had to make a toy.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Well, that's probably you're looking at AI and robotics there.
But if you just wanted to make and which is
outside of my big grade, but if you wanted to
just make one out of say like plastic, you know, like,
I'm not sure sure how old you are. I'm in
my late forties, so I kind of grew up in
that era of the plastic toy. Sure, if you first
(08:40):
start out with some concept art, figure out how you wanted,
what size you'd want it to be, how articulated you
wanted to be, a higher a sculptor, figure out, you know,
what kind of packaging would you like, what are the
paint application is going to be. Again, it's one of
those things that fundamentally hasn't changed much since sort of
the dawn of manufacturing. It's you know, you start, you
(09:01):
start with your art and get people to translate it
in between, and you end up with a three dimensional
object that ends up on shelves and in toy stores.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
I'm just trying to have a little fun with you,
but I guess I'll keep that in mind.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Sorry, that's a very literal answer, but we can absolutely
make a toy.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
If you could be in a room with anybody, musician, producer,
special effect person, actor, who would you pick? You could
pick one person to take with you.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
It'd be interesting and it's probably cliche, but I would
absolutely love to sit down with George Lucas sometimes just
I mean, and not even to talk about you know,
necessarily it would be impossible to not talk about Star Wars.
I've gotten to work with a lot of people who
worked on the original Star Wars films, and just being
a huge fan myself, I've always found myself asking them
about it, and so it's impossible to not ask about it.
(09:57):
But he's such an interesting person with his just sort
of love of film, like I think it'd be fascinating
to sit down with him and actually talk about films
that aren't Star Wars, you know, ask him about sort
of like I love American graffiti. I love that kind
of hot rod culture era. He collects movie posters. I
would love to talk to him about his movie poster collection.
So he just seems like someone I really sit down
(10:18):
and have a good chat with.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yeah, well, if you do, please feel free to invite me,
because I would fly to California and be there with you.
But a long time ago, God, this must have been
a boy fifteen years ago. It's a long time ago,
but we saw him. I was stopped at a stop
sign or something. I'm trying to remember what part of
San Francisco there where he's inspired for the ad at Walkers,
(10:42):
where you look across and you see those things, and
he has his he had like a studio there and something.
But we're at a stop sign. He just walks across
and I was just kind of like, that guy looks
just like George Lucas, and I was like, that is
George Lucas.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
And I always kicked myself.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I didn't open my window and just say hi, but
I came close to meeting him.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I guess probably near the Presidio, which is where the city. Yes,
that's where the industry light and magic campuses. And I
think what you're thinking about is the Port of Oakland.
The Port of Oakland has across the bay. Again, I
know you're not in California, so I don't know how
well you know the geography of the area. But the
Port of Oakland has these giant out looking I believe
(11:20):
they're there to load and unload sea containers.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's exactly what yep, because I remember
we someone was telling us that and yeah, that's exactly
where it was.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Yeah, yep, the presidio.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
It's amazing the things that inspired those like you read
stories of the design of the blendium Falcon was based
on someone getting a burger with an olive m to
the side. I think Boba Fett's slave one was inspired
by a light post near Alm, kind of a street
light cover. It's it's interesting when you when you look
(11:52):
at these things that have become so iconic in their
own design and then realize that they're inspired by something
that people think is just as man Dane, like I said,
it's like a like an all over.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
I actually just got done watching the and or the
series that was great, and I literally keep thinking to
myself that if I had an opportunity.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
I hear, you know in Star.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Wars Marvel, you hear actors, you know, they kind of
squabble about money and stuff. Like man, if someone called
me up, I would do something for free just to
be able to be in that franchise as anything, even
if it's a little extra thing. Like I don't know
how people. I mean, I understand compensation is important, but
I'm like a little kid. I would do anything they want.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I would absolutely do the same. And I don't know
if this is true or not. This is sort of
just a rumor i'd heard, but I guess that's how
Samuel L. Jackson ended up in the pre I heard
that's true. He just kind of asked George, like, I
will just do anything. I will run across I will
run across the screen in the background. You know. It's
kind of like Jonah Hill and Wolf of Wall Street
(12:53):
where he did that movie for like for as little
as he could be paid, like segmentimum. I think it
was something like six thousand dollars and he did that
movie for it just because he wanted to be a
part of it.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Well, it's interesting you talk about SAG and with the
screenplay stuff I'm doing. I don't remember if it was
Stage thirty two or one of these platforms. I say,
They're like, oh do you have so I looked at
it and I said, oh, yeah, I should sign up
to be a SAG.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Member, right, Like what have you been in?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
And I looked through you and I kept trying to
qualify for my music videos.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
But it's nothing.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
It's interesting when you don't know all these different little
niches and how to get into something. You're like like,
I would have never known that that you have to
be in something.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
It's just fascinating to me.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I never had to join SAG or anything. But as
far as I've heard, it's not only just being in
there you have to maintain in there. You know, you
have to work a certain number of hours. I believe
it's per year. Yeah, and I think there are exceptions
with retired actors who probably I think some of them
still get their insurances and things through there. Yeah, but yeah,
it's it's not only because I have a lot of
(13:53):
friends who work towards getting into SAG and it seems
incredibly difficult, and things like YouTube and those videos kind
of count, but you need a lot more hours than
you would, you know, being there if you're getting a
speaking role or something.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
My YouTube channel at this point, I get almost a
million views per month, but it's not you put your name,
your Social Security and kind of like checks if you
qualify and you're not eligible. So I don't even know
how the YouTube views would count.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
That's interesting. I didn't even think about YouTube.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I'm not sure. And it's one of those things where
they're just sort of evolving with different areas, because I mean,
there's clearly YouTube famous people, there's TikTok famous people you know,
acting and not like they're actors. But I think the
qualifications have changed quite a bit over the years.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
So if there's a listener out there that wants to
get into something similar to what you're kind of doing.
Is there a certain school or a certain website where
would you point them? Where would you say, hey, if
you're just getting started in this, go there, and any
recommendations for them.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
You know, if you're trying to get into the visual
effects industry, there are so many schools and there are
ways because one of the bonuses of being in the
arts is it's not like being a lawyer or a doctor,
where your degree is your credential. You're basically solely judged
by your abilities, and so you don't necessarily have to
(15:14):
go to an elite level college to get into that.
It's just you know, here's my demo reel, how good
is your work? And with free software and things. Now,
if you are self motivated, there are so many online
tutorials or you know, there's great weekend classes if you
want to go and get sort of a crash course.
I was never really I don't know what the word
(15:36):
would be. I guess self motivated enough to guide myself
through through tutorials and things like that, I kind of
need someone to instruct me. So I actually went to
a gosh the essentially it was like a three D
trade school where it was kind of four years of
college wrapped into about eighteen months. But there's tons of
(15:58):
great schools like SCAT is a great school, Savannah College
of Art and Design. A lot of my friends went
through that school. Gosh, the school I want to doesn't
exist anymore. But you know, then, of course you have
like the US's UCLA's if you want to get a
toy design something like that, there are I had no
toy design background when I actually got into the toy industry.
I actually just I just lied and said I knew
(16:20):
how to design toys, and I got kind of a
shot that way. But there are also they're great toy
design schools and classes that you can take.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Again, this is a little outside the show's wheelhouse, but
what do you think people that listen to the show
should know about, Like you have the open mic anything
you want to talk about, Well, if I'm.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Going to go personal, I can sort of pitch that
I am also a children's book writer, and so a
couple of years ago I started developing some children's books
that I'm trying to get made into an animated series now.
And the series is called Rest in Peace. And they're
all sort of rhyming books about monsters and how monsters
would celebrate holidays, weren't just Halloween. So I have a
(17:02):
Halloween book and a Christmas book and a Valentine's Day book,
and I have a couple more ready to go. I'm
looking for a new publisher. The first two were published traditionally,
and my contract with them. They did well, and so
now I'm just trying to find a home for them
as an animated series, or at least continue it as
(17:22):
a book series.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
You mentioned publisher, and I just thought, man, the hardest thing,
especially for someone like me. I love creating, and I'm
hoping at some point like Steve Martin's book was great
about be so good they can't ignore you, and that's.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Kind of what I try the last couple of years.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
But I cannot wait to where I have an agent
or manager or publisher that believes in me, where I
can say, hey, here's these two hundred books or screenplays
or and then they can be like, yeah, you know,
edit this one. This one can be and just to
kind of like take over the admin stuff and the
pitching stuff. Not that I would have a problem meeting
with the big public sure about a book or about
(18:02):
selling a screenplay at Disney, but just all the minutia
and the stuff in between, where at this level you're
trying to find well, maybe I'll enter that contest and
maybe someone will notice me. Or it's just really hard.
And I get why the industry is like that. But
after putting in your time and you start getting better
and better, you get to a point where you wish
(18:22):
that door would open for you, right, And the problem
is then you have to figure out, well, which ones
are legit which ones are not, because people waste their
time in quagmires with publishers that are not legit.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
You know, it is so difficult. When I give talks
about writing and what it's like to write a children's book,
I always start by saying writing the book was the
easiest part. Finding a publisher is it took? You know?
I wrote the first draft of my first children's book
in one night, and it took eight years to find
a publisher. You know, I still can't find an agent.
(18:56):
I read somewhere that they said the odds of a
writer finding an agent or the same odds as an
actor who is just a working, living actor becoming a
famous actor, like, it's that big of a leap and
I got it. I believe it. I didn't think it
would be this hard. I mean, I didn't think it
would be easy, but I certainly didn't think that it
(19:16):
would be as hard as it is.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
And I think the other thing I've seen in the
music business, as well as any creative industry, is a
lot of people quit, right. They think, oh, I want
to do this, and then when they don't go viral
in their first song or whereas I think other people
that are more dedicated, and I'm not talking about you,
and I'm talking about anybody that just keeps doing it,
and keeps listening to feedback and getting better, and keeps
(19:38):
learning and doing courses and mentors and whatever you have
to do. You get to a point where you want,
like creative management or just one of these big fish
to kind of believe in you. It's not even about
like the money, it's not about the contacts. It's about, wow,
someone reputable. It's almost like winning a Grammy or an
Academy a word, right, get validation, and then hopefully it
(20:02):
opens some doors where people will take your call or
or open your email, and it just hopefully gets you
to that next step.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
No, that's exactly what it is. It's not even and
to be fair, getting an agent isn't guaranteed money in
anyone's pocket, whether you're a musician or an actor, a
writer or a painter, or any agency agented creative. But
there is like a it's kind of that stamp of approval,
and it's that little bit of validation that makes things easier. Like,
(20:29):
for example, I'm trying to go through and get my
book series pitched as an animated series, and the studios
are only accepting agented pitches. It doesn't matter how good
or bad my pitch deck is or my idea, it
has to go through an agent. And so not only
is it sort of the stamp of approval, it's sort
of like a it's just it's almost it's a gatekeeper
(20:52):
between trying to get to next levels of things.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Listen, we're just two guys talking. But I empathize that well.
I empathize with people on both ends of the spectrum
where if you're successful, you don't want to waste your
time with all these people like hey, look, listen to
this hit and they're like, oh my god, this sucks,
Like so I understand why things are in place, but
I feel like I wish there was at least I
(21:16):
have found in.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
The screenwriting business.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Because I've been really focusing on that the last year
kind of because i just had all this content and
I've learned, you know, final draft, I've learned the software,
I've learned. It's different than writing a book, right, but
at least I've found this. Okay, there's some legitimate you know,
slam dance. There's some legitimate contests where you can maybe
get a little and you can get feedback from professionals,
(21:40):
whereas in the music world, the people that are like
all critique your song for you. Just it's such a
illegitimate quagmire, you know what I mean. It's just really hard.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Well it's hard too because you're also basing it on
one other person's opinion and the people who you can hire.
You can hire an editor, you can hire ten different
editors to look at a book or to go through
a screenplay, and you'd get ten different versions of feedback,
so you know what's the correct one. It's so difficult,
and yeah, some of those screenplay contests are incredible. A
(22:14):
friend of mine adapted my children's book into a screenplay contest,
and it was sort of at that time when I
thought maybe I should just give up on this. And
he wanted to get into writing animation, and he asked me, hey,
can I just adapt your book as sort of a
proof of concept that I can write for animation? And
he entered the screenplay in several competitions and we did
(22:36):
really well. We got into the finals. I didn't do anything.
He got into the finals with the adaption of my
book and he won one. And I did notice that
and the better festivals they will give you good, very good,
professional and concise feedback, which I think is a really
really wonderful versus just one person's opinion, you know, because
(22:58):
they're trying to crab something to suit their taste better.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Like I said, I get it, I get it. I honestly,
we're kind of out of time. I could talk to
you for another hour, man, you know we're going to
I'm sure the listeners would be disappointed, but we got
to wrap this up with you and maybe we could
do another episode sometime. But I'd love to feel free
to give the listeners any information about websites or anything
you want to share with them.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Everything about me can be found on my main website,
which is just my name. It's Tylerham dot com. I
tried to do. I do sort of weekly or sometimes
a couple of times a week, just a little ninety
second videos on my Instagram and my TikTok which are
at Tyler Jayham and it's just sort of insights into
you ninety seconds insights into what it's like working in
(23:42):
the film industry, in the toy industry, or if there's
an interesting headline about either of those. I'll sort of
give my two cents on those. So that's pretty much.
And those are also linked for my website, which again
is Tylerham dot com.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Awesome, Tyler, thank you again for being on the show.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Man. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I
would love to come back. This has been fun.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
So thank you to all the fans and listeners out there.
Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you
enjoyed this show as much as I did. And again,
if you're a songwriter with a story to share, go
to the Songwriter show dot com and fill out the
interview request for him to be on the show. I
hope this episode has inspired you to explore your own
stories through any creative channel. My name is Sorontos. Thank
(24:19):
you for joining us tonight on Reality Radio one to
one point nine and have a great night.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
I love you all.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Ins to do on the stairs staring at the dark
one Europe is I've made a mistake from the veriest start.
Speaker 7 (24:52):
Sorright way back when ji as I did, I read
that she said.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
One kind.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
The matches into.
Speaker 8 (25:11):
One kind, the other doesn't get okay, change back.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Into much is before I want.
Speaker 9 (25:32):
At one point to that it's a blis control woke
gotamards myself.
Speaker 7 (25:46):
When you stop doing it, it's never something.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
When you start toward.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
That's where you show.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Kind you can match.
Speaker 7 (26:07):
Kind doesn't like to do on such a big mistup.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
It's staring at I then have to say, I will take.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
It to.
Speaker 10 (27:12):
Kind. Do not change today one kind the other.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
Doesn't like to get well, that.
Speaker 7 (27:29):
Such a big mistake.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
It's what I want.
Speaker 8 (27:33):
I won't naida ow can change back into a change.
Speaker 10 (27:45):
It's what I want. I want day.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Thank you for listening to The Songwriter Show. To keep
the momentum going, head over to www dot songwriter show
dot com and joined our free music community of artists
songwriters and producers.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
That's www.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Dot songwriter, show dot com.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Many many, many name a no no hanging hall, hang
(30:35):
hang hang
Are you a songwriter?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Are you looking to turn your songwriting passion into a
full time gigig? Whether you are just at the start
of your songwriting journey or a seasoned industry professional, this
show is made for you.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
You.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
We will welcome to the Songwriter Show, bringing together songwriting, news, interviews,
and communitating. Now welcome your houst Sarantos.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Hello, and thank you for tuning in again to the
Songwriter Show. I'm Sarantos, your humble host and a fellow
songwriter with a passion for crafting stories through music. As
someone who's been writing lyrics for as long as I
can remember, I know how every song holds its own
unique story, and that's what brings us together here every
single Tuesday. But today we have a really cool surprise
for you guys. Today, I'm so happy to have on
(00:48):
the show.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Tyler Ham.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Tyler is a twenty year veteran of the creative industry,
having worked for companies including Lucasfilm, Disney, and DreamWorks Animation.
Tyler's work can be seen in films, animation, books, and
toy shelves worldwide.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
And now welcome this week's special guest guest.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Welcome to show, Tyler How are you.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I am great. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
You're welcome. I am super excited. Man, I'm a big
star Wars Disney Nut.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I am too. I am too.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I cannot wait to talk to you, because there is
you know, I have this whole other side to me
where I write screenplays and i just got a couple
on the Blacklist, and I've written like three hundred movies
and I'm finally starting to pitch them.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
It's it's just the coolest thing in the world. So
I think there's a lot of overlap between creative the arts, right,
whether it's writing songs, movies, some of the special effects stuff.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
So I can't wait to talk to you, man.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, no, no, I'm excited. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I guess for the fans, how would you describe yourself? Like,
what what do you do?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So right now I've sort of moved more into consultation,
but I started my career in the visual effects industry
all the way back in two thousand and one. I
started on this kind of what forgotten jetly film called
The One, and from there I went to work on
several companies, several more high profile films, pirates of the
Caribbean franchise was one of them. And after that I
(02:13):
went into the toy industry, where I started as a
sculptor and then worked my way up to creative direction.
And now I sort of kind of have found a
way to look back and use all those skills and
lessons to help mostly startups sort of define their creative
voice going forward.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
That's really cool.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
So are these production companies that are looking to make
films and are trying of is that you're talking about?
Are you talking about only animation or tell us a
little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
No, Actually, it's kind of funny. It's in a weird way.
It's unrelated almost. So I do a lot of mentorship
work with Stanford University with some of their entrepreneur undergrads,
and then they have a startup accelerator called startex which
I work with. And actually I kind of have found
I really enjoy doing some sort of creative consultation and
creative development work for companies that aren't necessarily creative based.
(03:06):
You know, I'm working with a greeting card company, I'm
working with a skincare beauty supply company. They did some
work with a coffee startup, and so it's kind of
interesting getting to take those film and toy industry skills
into different areas and actually kind of seeing how much
translates are a lot more translates than I thought it would.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
So I guess in your industry, right on this show,
we talk about scams, we talk about helping each other out.
Fans are trying to figure out how we make songs.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So in your.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Industry, tell us a little bit for people that don't know,
how are animation or movies, these special effects that obviously is.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Part of your story, how are they made? Like is
there some secret sauce or something.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
It's funny there used to be it used to be
more of a secret sauce because people were still developing
the software. Like when I started, there weren't really things
like home versions of some of these three D softwares.
And you know, fast forward to last year's Academy Awards,
when the animated film Flow took Best Feature Animated Film.
(04:11):
I mean that was based sorry, that was made using
a freeware software that anyone can download, and so sort
of well, there's still I think some proprietary softwarees and
secrets really it's just about practice. It's about practicing sort
of crafting your your art, crafting your story. You're sort
(04:31):
of having a if you're interested in animation, like a
career vision learning about you know, the fundamentals of animation.
So the fundamentals of what makes good animation good haven't
changed since the dawn of animation. You know, concepts like
squash and stretch and all those things are still you
still see those in modern Pixar films, things that you
know Disney was doing back in the twenties and thirties,
(04:54):
so you know what old Walter Lance cartoons and all
of those. So sort of the fundamentals have stayed the same.
It's really just an evolving tool set.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Is there so I can tell you in terms of
like when I got started, I used Logic Pro, Right,
there are an Apple based thing and pro tools is
the other probably the industry standard. So a guy like
me that's starting garage band and Logic Pro and you
just get better and better. Is there an animation software
that if there's a new Bee listening that's like, oh,
I'd like to get into that. Is there some software
(05:24):
that he should start?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So the software I used for entire my entire career,
even transition to use it over from film into the
toy industry. Is called Maya and it's my Autodesk, but
it's actually it's a price of your software and you
have to at lease it. You're paying month to month. Basically,
that software that I was referring to with the movie flow,
that's called Blender, and that's just available online for free.
(05:47):
Not only is it free, has a really rich and
robust tutorial community, a big support community. You know, there's
it's one of those software so you can go on
any one of a bunch of Blender forums. You have
people that are willing to help you out there if
you want to get into digital sculpting, which is also
sort of transitions into the film industry as well. Sort
of the industry standard now is a software called z brush,
(06:10):
But even under those circumstances, there's free versions of that.
I can't recall exactly what the name of it is,
but there's some pretty decent and powerful free sculpting softwares
and I can't remember the name, but it's actually made
by the company that does z brush. So there's tools
for every budget here.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Do you have any role models or mentors, people you
look up to in the industry.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
It's so many, I think, going all the way back
to guys like directors like George Powell, who aren't necessarily
thought much of these days, but he did two of
my favorite early sci fi not early sip of films,
sixty sci fi films. He did The War of the
Worlds and The Time Machine. And you can go back
even further, guys like Ray Harryhausen, who've actually gotten the
(06:55):
meet several times, who was sort of the effects legend
behind Clashed, the Type's Oh my god, Jason, the Argonauts. Yeah, yeah,
it's so kind of there's this weird little mid section
kind of between King Kong and Star Wars almost where
I guess it was a little past King Kong. But
Ray Harryhausen, he is the bridge between those those two worlds.
(07:17):
So you have all the sinbad films. So it's hard
to it's hard to make a list of people you
look up to and not sort of add those masterminds
on there, you know, without even sending a little cliche,
like the Harry Houses, the George Lucases, the Willis O'Brien's,
Like I said, George Powell, who was a little less.
A great film historian named Bob Burns was a good
(07:39):
mentor of mine when I started sort of transitioning from
filmwork into toy sculpture. Bob's still live, in fact, it
just celebrated his ninetieth birthday. Yeah, so that would be
you know guys like also like Phil Tippett of course
would be one. There's really it's one of those questions
where he could probably answer for twenty minutes to yeah,
thirty minutes and then ten minutes later kind of do
(08:00):
like oh yeah, and Rick Baker and the short answers. Yes,
there are plenty of role models and inspirations.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
With your toy background.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
If I wanted to make a little Sorranto's toy that
just ran around pretending he knows how to do.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
Everything, how would I get started with that? If I
had to make a toy.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Well, that's probably you're looking at AI and robotics there.
But if you just wanted to make and which is
outside of my big grade, but if you wanted to
just make one out of say like plastic, you know, like,
I'm not sure sure how old you are. I'm in
my late forties, so I kind of grew up in
that era of the plastic toy. Sure, if you first
(08:40):
start out with some concept art, figure out how you wanted,
what size you'd want it to be, how articulated you
wanted to be, a higher a sculptor, figure out, you know,
what kind of packaging would you like, what are the
paint application is going to be. Again, it's one of
those things that fundamentally hasn't changed much since sort of
the dawn of manufacturing. It's you know, you start, you
(09:01):
start with your art and get people to translate it
in between, and you end up with a three dimensional
object that ends up on shelves and in toy stores.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
I'm just trying to have a little fun with you,
but I guess I'll keep that in mind.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Sorry, that's a very literal answer, but we can absolutely
make a toy.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
If you could be in a room with anybody, musician, producer,
special effect person, actor, who would you pick? You could
pick one person to take with you.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
It'd be interesting and it's probably cliche, but I would
absolutely love to sit down with George Lucas sometimes just
I mean, and not even to talk about you know,
necessarily it would be impossible to not talk about Star Wars.
I've gotten to work with a lot of people who
worked on the original Star Wars films, and just being
a huge fan myself, I've always found myself asking them
about it, and so it's impossible to not ask about it.
(09:57):
But he's such an interesting person with his just sort
of love of film, like I think it'd be fascinating
to sit down with him and actually talk about films
that aren't Star Wars, you know, ask him about sort
of like I love American graffiti. I love that kind
of hot rod culture era. He collects movie posters. I
would love to talk to him about his movie poster collection.
So he just seems like someone I really sit down
(10:18):
and have a good chat with.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yeah, well, if you do, please feel free to invite me,
because I would fly to California and be there with you.
But a long time ago, God, this must have been
a boy fifteen years ago. It's a long time ago,
but we saw him. I was stopped at a stop
sign or something. I'm trying to remember what part of
San Francisco there where he's inspired for the ad at Walkers,
(10:42):
where you look across and you see those things, and
he has his he had like a studio there and something.
But we're at a stop sign. He just walks across
and I was just kind of like, that guy looks
just like George Lucas, and I was like, that is
George Lucas.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
And I always kicked myself.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I didn't open my window and just say hi, but
I came close to meeting him.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I guess probably near the Presidio, which is where the city. Yes,
that's where the industry light and magic campuses. And I
think what you're thinking about is the Port of Oakland.
The Port of Oakland has across the bay. Again, I
know you're not in California, so I don't know how
well you know the geography of the area. But the
Port of Oakland has these giant out looking I believe
(11:20):
they're there to load and unload sea containers.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's exactly what yep, because I remember
we someone was telling us that and yeah, that's exactly
where it was.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Yeah, yep, the presidio.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
It's amazing the things that inspired those like you read
stories of the design of the blendium Falcon was based
on someone getting a burger with an olive m to
the side. I think Boba Fett's slave one was inspired
by a light post near Alm, kind of a street
light cover. It's it's interesting when you when you look
(11:52):
at these things that have become so iconic in their
own design and then realize that they're inspired by something
that people think is just as man Dane, like I said,
it's like a like an all over.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
I actually just got done watching the and or the
series that was great, and I literally keep thinking to
myself that if I had an opportunity.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
I hear, you know in Star.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Wars Marvel, you hear actors, you know, they kind of
squabble about money and stuff. Like man, if someone called
me up, I would do something for free just to
be able to be in that franchise as anything, even
if it's a little extra thing. Like I don't know
how people. I mean, I understand compensation is important, but
I'm like a little kid. I would do anything they want.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I would absolutely do the same. And I don't know
if this is true or not. This is sort of
just a rumor i'd heard, but I guess that's how
Samuel L. Jackson ended up in the pre I heard
that's true. He just kind of asked George, like, I
will just do anything. I will run across I will
run across the screen in the background. You know. It's
kind of like Jonah Hill and Wolf of Wall Street
(12:53):
where he did that movie for like for as little
as he could be paid, like segmentimum. I think it
was something like six thousand dollars and he did that
movie for it just because he wanted to be a
part of it.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Well, it's interesting you talk about SAG and with the
screenplay stuff I'm doing. I don't remember if it was
Stage thirty two or one of these platforms. I say,
They're like, oh do you have so I looked at
it and I said, oh, yeah, I should sign up
to be a SAG.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Member, right, Like what have you been in?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
And I looked through you and I kept trying to
qualify for my music videos.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
But it's nothing.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
It's interesting when you don't know all these different little
niches and how to get into something. You're like like,
I would have never known that that you have to
be in something.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
It's just fascinating to me.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I never had to join SAG or anything. But as
far as I've heard, it's not only just being in
there you have to maintain in there. You know, you
have to work a certain number of hours. I believe
it's per year. Yeah, and I think there are exceptions
with retired actors who probably I think some of them
still get their insurances and things through there. Yeah, but yeah,
it's it's not only because I have a lot of
(13:53):
friends who work towards getting into SAG and it seems
incredibly difficult, and things like YouTube and those videos kind
of count, but you need a lot more hours than
you would, you know, being there if you're getting a
speaking role or something.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
My YouTube channel at this point, I get almost a
million views per month, but it's not you put your name,
your Social Security and kind of like checks if you
qualify and you're not eligible. So I don't even know
how the YouTube views would count.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
That's interesting. I didn't even think about YouTube.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I'm not sure. And it's one of those things where
they're just sort of evolving with different areas, because I mean,
there's clearly YouTube famous people, there's TikTok famous people you know,
acting and not like they're actors. But I think the
qualifications have changed quite a bit over the years.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
So if there's a listener out there that wants to
get into something similar to what you're kind of doing.
Is there a certain school or a certain website where
would you point them? Where would you say, hey, if
you're just getting started in this, go there, and any
recommendations for them.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
You know, if you're trying to get into the visual
effects industry, there are so many schools and there are
ways because one of the bonuses of being in the
arts is it's not like being a lawyer or a doctor,
where your degree is your credential. You're basically solely judged
by your abilities, and so you don't necessarily have to
(15:14):
go to an elite level college to get into that.
It's just you know, here's my demo reel, how good
is your work? And with free software and things. Now,
if you are self motivated, there are so many online
tutorials or you know, there's great weekend classes if you
want to go and get sort of a crash course.
I was never really I don't know what the word
(15:36):
would be. I guess self motivated enough to guide myself
through through tutorials and things like that, I kind of
need someone to instruct me. So I actually went to
a gosh the essentially it was like a three D
trade school where it was kind of four years of
college wrapped into about eighteen months. But there's tons of
(15:58):
great schools like SCAT is a great school, Savannah College
of Art and Design. A lot of my friends went
through that school. Gosh, the school I want to doesn't
exist anymore. But you know, then, of course you have
like the US's UCLA's if you want to get a
toy design something like that, there are I had no
toy design background when I actually got into the toy industry.
I actually just I just lied and said I knew
(16:20):
how to design toys, and I got kind of a
shot that way. But there are also they're great toy
design schools and classes that you can take.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Again, this is a little outside the show's wheelhouse, but
what do you think people that listen to the show
should know about, Like you have the open mic anything
you want to talk about, Well, if I'm.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Going to go personal, I can sort of pitch that
I am also a children's book writer, and so a
couple of years ago I started developing some children's books
that I'm trying to get made into an animated series now.
And the series is called Rest in Peace. And they're
all sort of rhyming books about monsters and how monsters
would celebrate holidays, weren't just Halloween. So I have a
(17:02):
Halloween book and a Christmas book and a Valentine's Day book,
and I have a couple more ready to go. I'm
looking for a new publisher. The first two were published traditionally,
and my contract with them. They did well, and so
now I'm just trying to find a home for them
as an animated series, or at least continue it as
(17:22):
a book series.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
You mentioned publisher, and I just thought, man, the hardest thing,
especially for someone like me. I love creating, and I'm
hoping at some point like Steve Martin's book was great
about be so good they can't ignore you, and that's.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Kind of what I try the last couple of years.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
But I cannot wait to where I have an agent
or manager or publisher that believes in me, where I
can say, hey, here's these two hundred books or screenplays
or and then they can be like, yeah, you know,
edit this one. This one can be and just to
kind of like take over the admin stuff and the
pitching stuff. Not that I would have a problem meeting
with the big public sure about a book or about
(18:02):
selling a screenplay at Disney, but just all the minutia
and the stuff in between, where at this level you're
trying to find well, maybe I'll enter that contest and
maybe someone will notice me. Or it's just really hard.
And I get why the industry is like that. But
after putting in your time and you start getting better
and better, you get to a point where you wish
(18:22):
that door would open for you, right, And the problem
is then you have to figure out, well, which ones
are legit which ones are not, because people waste their
time in quagmires with publishers that are not legit.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
You know, it is so difficult. When I give talks
about writing and what it's like to write a children's book,
I always start by saying writing the book was the
easiest part. Finding a publisher is it took? You know?
I wrote the first draft of my first children's book
in one night, and it took eight years to find
a publisher. You know, I still can't find an agent.
(18:56):
I read somewhere that they said the odds of a
writer finding an agent or the same odds as an
actor who is just a working, living actor becoming a
famous actor, like, it's that big of a leap and
I got it. I believe it. I didn't think it
would be this hard. I mean, I didn't think it
would be easy, but I certainly didn't think that it
(19:16):
would be as hard as it is.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
And I think the other thing I've seen in the
music business, as well as any creative industry, is a
lot of people quit, right. They think, oh, I want
to do this, and then when they don't go viral
in their first song or whereas I think other people
that are more dedicated, and I'm not talking about you,
and I'm talking about anybody that just keeps doing it,
and keeps listening to feedback and getting better, and keeps
(19:38):
learning and doing courses and mentors and whatever you have
to do. You get to a point where you want,
like creative management or just one of these big fish
to kind of believe in you. It's not even about
like the money, it's not about the contacts. It's about, wow,
someone reputable. It's almost like winning a Grammy or an
Academy a word, right, get validation, and then hopefully it
(20:02):
opens some doors where people will take your call or
or open your email, and it just hopefully gets you
to that next step.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
No, that's exactly what it is. It's not even and
to be fair, getting an agent isn't guaranteed money in
anyone's pocket, whether you're a musician or an actor, a
writer or a painter, or any agency agented creative. But
there is like a it's kind of that stamp of approval,
and it's that little bit of validation that makes things easier. Like,
(20:29):
for example, I'm trying to go through and get my
book series pitched as an animated series, and the studios
are only accepting agented pitches. It doesn't matter how good
or bad my pitch deck is or my idea, it
has to go through an agent. And so not only
is it sort of the stamp of approval, it's sort
of like a it's just it's almost it's a gatekeeper
(20:52):
between trying to get to next levels of things.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Listen, we're just two guys talking. But I empathize that well.
I empathize with people on both ends of the spectrum
where if you're successful, you don't want to waste your
time with all these people like hey, look, listen to
this hit and they're like, oh my god, this sucks,
Like so I understand why things are in place, but
I feel like I wish there was at least I
(21:16):
have found in.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
The screenwriting business.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Because I've been really focusing on that the last year
kind of because i just had all this content and
I've learned, you know, final draft, I've learned the software,
I've learned. It's different than writing a book, right, but
at least I've found this. Okay, there's some legitimate you know,
slam dance. There's some legitimate contests where you can maybe
get a little and you can get feedback from professionals,
(21:40):
whereas in the music world, the people that are like
all critique your song for you. Just it's such a
illegitimate quagmire, you know what I mean. It's just really hard.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Well it's hard too because you're also basing it on
one other person's opinion and the people who you can hire.
You can hire an editor, you can hire ten different
editors to look at a book or to go through
a screenplay, and you'd get ten different versions of feedback,
so you know what's the correct one. It's so difficult,
and yeah, some of those screenplay contests are incredible. A
(22:14):
friend of mine adapted my children's book into a screenplay contest,
and it was sort of at that time when I
thought maybe I should just give up on this. And
he wanted to get into writing animation, and he asked me, hey,
can I just adapt your book as sort of a
proof of concept that I can write for animation? And
he entered the screenplay in several competitions and we did
(22:36):
really well. We got into the finals. I didn't do anything.
He got into the finals with the adaption of my
book and he won one. And I did notice that
and the better festivals they will give you good, very good,
professional and concise feedback, which I think is a really
really wonderful versus just one person's opinion, you know, because
(22:58):
they're trying to crab something to suit their taste better.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Like I said, I get it, I get it. I honestly,
we're kind of out of time. I could talk to
you for another hour, man, you know we're going to
I'm sure the listeners would be disappointed, but we got
to wrap this up with you and maybe we could
do another episode sometime. But I'd love to feel free
to give the listeners any information about websites or anything
you want to share with them.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Everything about me can be found on my main website,
which is just my name. It's Tylerham dot com. I
tried to do. I do sort of weekly or sometimes
a couple of times a week, just a little ninety
second videos on my Instagram and my TikTok which are
at Tyler Jayham and it's just sort of insights into
you ninety seconds insights into what it's like working in
(23:42):
the film industry, in the toy industry, or if there's
an interesting headline about either of those. I'll sort of
give my two cents on those. So that's pretty much.
And those are also linked for my website, which again
is Tylerham dot com.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Awesome, Tyler, thank you again for being on the show.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Man. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I
would love to come back. This has been fun.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
So thank you to all the fans and listeners out there.
Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you
enjoyed this show as much as I did. And again,
if you're a songwriter with a story to share, go
to the Songwriter show dot com and fill out the
interview request for him to be on the show. I
hope this episode has inspired you to explore your own
stories through any creative channel. My name is Sorontos. Thank
(24:19):
you for joining us tonight on Reality Radio one to
one point nine and have a great night.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
I love you all.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Ins to do on the stairs staring at the dark
one Europe is I've made a mistake from the veriest start.
Speaker 7 (24:52):
Sorright way back when ji as I did, I read
that she said.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
One kind.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
The matches into.
Speaker 8 (25:11):
One kind, the other doesn't get okay, change back.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Into much is before I want.
Speaker 9 (25:32):
At one point to that it's a blis control woke
gotamards myself.
Speaker 7 (25:46):
When you stop doing it, it's never something.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
When you start toward.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
That's where you show.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Kind you can match.
Speaker 7 (26:07):
Kind doesn't like to do on such a big mistup.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
It's staring at I then have to say, I will take.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
It to.
Speaker 10 (27:12):
Kind. Do not change today one kind the other.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
Doesn't like to get well, that.
Speaker 7 (27:29):
Such a big mistake.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
It's what I want.
Speaker 8 (27:33):
I won't naida ow can change back into a change.
Speaker 10 (27:45):
It's what I want. I want day.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Thank you for listening to The Songwriter Show. To keep
the momentum going, head over to www dot songwriter show
dot com and joined our free music community of artists
songwriters and producers.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
That's www.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Dot songwriter, show dot com.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Many many, many name a no no hanging hall, hang
(30:35):
hang hang
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