John Cady, author of the Young Adult urban fantasy novel series “Angela of Death"

John Cady is the author of several books including the Young Adult urban fantasy novel series “Angela of Death”. John's full-time job is teaching English Language Arts to juvenile offenders.
John's other stories can be found in multiple anthologies, including "After the Kool Aid Is Gone", "It’s All Fun and Games Until Somebody Dies", "ABCs of Terror" Volume 3, and "The Dire Circle".
His debut middle grade horror novella Attack of the 3-D Zombies was published in January of 2022.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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Speaker 2 (00:30):
Churchill said, those who fail to learn from history are
condemned to repeat it. Kevin helen n believes that certainly
applies to business. Welcome to Winning Business Radio here at
W four CY Radio. That's W four cy dot com
and now your host, Kevin Helena.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thanks everybody for joining in today. I'm Kevin helen In
and welcome back to Winning Business TV and Radio on
W four cy dot com. We're streaming live on talk
four tv dot com and of course on Facebook, and
that's at Winning Business Radio. And we are available in
podcasts after the live show pretty much wherever you get
your podcast content, YouTube, iHeart Radio, Spotify, Apple, again pretty

(01:17):
much wherever. The mission of Winning Business radio and TV,
as regular viewers know and listeners, is to offer insights
and advice right to help people avoid the mistakes of others.
Those are the best practices, the how tos, the what to's,
the what not tos, to be challenged and hopefully to
be inspired by the successes of others. Who are those

(01:37):
others consultants, coaches, advisors. Today our guests is an author,
founders and owners, entrepreneurs, people with expertise. But you know,
virtually every successful person that I've ever had a chance
to talk to has said some form of failure in
their lives and careers. So, like I say, we all
have to get our knees skinned once in a while,
I'm driven to keep those scrapes from needing major surgery.

(01:58):
Let's endeavor to learn from history so we don't repeat it.
I've spent the better part of my career equipping businesses
to grow from solopreneurs to small and medium sized businesses
all the way up to the Fortune fifty, and I've
seen some of those companies win to varying degrees. I've
seen some fail individuals as well. I've had the opportunity
to rub elbows with some of the highest performing people

(02:19):
around and with some who probably should have found other professions.
In my own businesses, I've had lots of success and
some failures too. I like to think I've learned a
lot from those experiences. So you're going to hear from
me my opinions and insights, because anybody who knows me,
John will tell you that I sometimes have a hard
time being quiet. And we're not going to talk Celtics today,
even though we're in a Red Sox polo in your honor, John.

(02:42):
But more importantly, today we're going to hear from experts,
those consultants, coaches, advisors, author John today, founders and owners
and entrepreneurs. So today my guest is longtime friend John Katie.
He's the author of several books, including the young adult
urban fantasy novel series Angela of Death. He was born
and raised in Massachusetts. When he's not busy teaching the

(03:03):
English language arts to juvenile offenders, he's making memories with
his family and entertaining readers with his stories. These stories
can be found in multiple anthologies including After the Coop
Is Gone, It's Fun Too, It's All Fun and Games
until Somebody Dies. I Love that one. ABC's of Terror
Volume three, and The Dire Circle. His debut middle grade

(03:23):
horror novella, Attack of the Three d Zombies, was published
in January of twenty twenty two. His outbreak young adult
urban fantasy trilogy, The Angela of Death Trilogy, is available
to the public on Amazon and wherever books are sold.
He lives in southeastern mass with his wife, Missy, daughter Abby,
and son John John. Welcome to Winning Business Radio. So

(03:43):
cool to have you here.

Speaker 4 (03:44):
Thank you very much. It's great to be here.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, it's fun when you're I mean, my wife's been
reading your book, says I think you know. And when
the third one, I see that, the second of the
third Angel of Death book came out, I said to
get on the radio. So we reached out and we
made that happen. And uh, I've got all three books

(04:07):
right here. I'll hand them. I'll show them up. Thank
you for in a moment or at some point on
the show. But check this one out.

Speaker 5 (04:17):
Oh that's old school. You're going way back now.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
This is old school. This is this is a paperback.
Is this the first book?

Speaker 5 (04:25):
Yeah, that's the first one I ever wrote that was
I self published that.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
One that I was that I thought, so we'll get
to that, but I just thought it'd be fun to
show you that. Yeah, all right, So tell us about
Missy and your kids for the audience.

Speaker 5 (04:37):
Oh, they're they're wonderful, so uh, missus, all three of them.
At the risk of sounding like not too Jimmy Stewart like,
with them, I everything like the other reason that I
do everything, the other reason I go to bed happy
and I wake up smiling. Yeah, even if I only
got like four hours of sleep, but that's because of
the pets we have. They wake me up in the

(04:59):
middle of the night.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Pets.

Speaker 5 (05:01):
We have a dog and a cat that they're as
bad as like when when we had, like if we
had an infant, like they have to get They wake
me up that often.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
So oh man.

Speaker 5 (05:09):
But other than that, I'm always smiling. Missing the kids
had me smiling. That's just one of wonderful people.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot from all
all three of them.

Speaker 5 (05:18):
I keep learning.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
All right, tell us about your background. First, where do
what town in Massachusetts did you grow up in?

Speaker 4 (05:25):
I grew up in Easton, Massachusetts.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Okay, so tell the audiences about Easton.

Speaker 5 (05:30):
So it's a it's a small town, and it's everything
about it has that small town failed. So it's one
of those things where like, for instance, my son when
he gets home from school, he gets on his bike,
grabs his fishing rod and goes out and meets his
friends and goes to whatever pond, and it's like it's
that kind of town where you're not worried about him, like,

(05:51):
you know, you're not worried about a lot of traffic
even from cars, or you're not worried about a lot
of you know, any him wandering into any areas that
he shouldn't perhaps be in. So it was like one
of those Andy Griffith type small towns where you're just
like it's it's quiet and that's how we like it,
you know. But other than that, it's just it was
a good time. I grew up here, and then I

(06:11):
was fortunate enough to buy my boyhood.

Speaker 4 (06:14):
Home from my parents.

Speaker 5 (06:15):
So nice. Yeah. So now like now we're making memories,
we're making the same memories about our kids that my
parents made from me.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yeah, it's awesome technology give us thirty seconds of history
because it is interesting to me anyway. On Easton.

Speaker 5 (06:28):
Uh, all right, so we call we called the shovel
Town and a big part of that is the aim
shovels were used for the trans Continental Railroad like that,
I which I didn't actually as embarrassing as it is,
I didn't know that until about five years ago.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
And then I'm like, whoa, okay, everything everything in that
area is named after Ames Rights High School, Ames Library.

Speaker 5 (06:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's just that family. It seemed like
it was. It was just like even their their mansions
are still in town. And like John Ryan, he goes
fishing at the Ames of State, the governor Aims of State.
So it's one of those things, the names everywhere, but
it's you know, they put out good products.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
What were your early interests like in or and then
just after high school?

Speaker 5 (07:15):
Say, well, I always so. I always liked creative writing
to a point I mostly wanted to write be writing movies.
So eventually I went when I went to Manhattan College,
I first started majoring in education because I was gonna
be a teacher, following my parents' footsteps. And then you know,
the more I realized they had a film school there,

(07:36):
I was like, oh, I had a friend that was
doing the film school stuff, and I'm like, I kind
of want to write movies.

Speaker 4 (07:41):
I want to be a screenwriter. So I made that
call to dad.

Speaker 5 (07:44):
I was like, hey, do you think I'm thinking of
maybe switching from being a teacher to going into like film,
which that could have come back and me any number
of ways. But luckily my parents are I've been blessed.
They're very supportive. And he said, that's very hard to
go with that. So I want you, he says, cause
you're going to put out the best product. Are you

(08:04):
going to put out your best work where your heart is?
So I said, all right, well I'm going for it. Then,
so and so I wrote, you know, I took a
bunch of screenwriting classes and I loved it.

Speaker 4 (08:14):
I loved telling stories.

Speaker 5 (08:15):
I love writing stories, and so I stuck with that
for a while. And then even when I graduated, I
was just had a regular nine to five job, but
I was sitting there trying to sell my screenplays and
nothing ever took, like they all made their way to
the circular file, which you know, the trash. So it's
kind of humbling with one of those things. I'm like,

(08:35):
I thought I was like this great writer you this
great screen, right, and then meanwhile, I'm like seeing like
movie posters or carrot top movies and stuff, so collecting
dust if that. And so I made the switch to
I said, I'll try writing books. Then at least then
I'll get people reading them. You know, people will read something.
So that's basically that's where the journeys started.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
What were your early jobs? Manhattan College, by the way,
what made you choose that school?

Speaker 5 (09:03):
I honestly wanted to go to New York City and
wanted to live in New York City, and then so
we went out there to visit the school after after
I had been accepted. I probably should have looked at
the address of where the school was because it's in
the Bronx is not really in Manhattan. So I'm like
false advertising, like hundreds of years. It's been around one
hundreds of years fallse advertising, but it was. But I

(09:24):
loved it anyways, and so that's what brought me out there.
I just wanted to want to be I love Boston,
but I wanted I really wanted to be in New
York City.

Speaker 4 (09:34):
Not for the sports teams.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
But yeah, yeah, well we'd have to disown you.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
Yeah, just for the experience, then the experience of living there.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
Like we love our New York friends, but we you know,
we can root against their teams exactly right. So what
kind of early jobs did you have?

Speaker 4 (09:48):
Oh? Well, so I used to.

Speaker 5 (09:51):
It was a time I delivered appliances for a company
that that called north Go.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
That was that was a good time. I did that
with my one of my best friends.

Speaker 5 (09:58):
Like we could have we could.

Speaker 4 (09:59):
Have been doing ever. We were laughing every day and
delivering them, you.

Speaker 5 (10:02):
Know, just we did our job well and we were
always having a good time. And then I, uh, let's
see stock shelves for a while at a at a
liquor store that he managed, which you know, we stuck together.
Were kind of like the Blues Brothers for a while there,
but we were employed. And then I and then eventually I, uh,
you know, I just couldn't. I tried selling kitchens for

(10:23):
a while, which it was one of those things where
I had asked a friend, a good friend of mine
who got me to know he said, I said, talk
to me on like computer like eight hours a day
because I'm really not tech savvy. And he's like, oh no,
you won't know, you won't And then I get there
and I'm on computer like from minute one to minute
at the end of the day, and I'm.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
Like, oh, this is again false advertising.

Speaker 5 (10:42):
But so eventually that that didn't work o, just because
I hadn't you know, like I said, I wasn't as
tech savvy as my job like that required. And then
my father, who was my Both my parents had been teaching.
So my father finally said, why's she just try teaching?
You have the personality to be a teacher. You love
learning and you love you know, empowering wisdom on the
younger dinner. And so he's like, you're literally designed for teaching.

(11:05):
So I said, all right, so and I went. You know,
I was a building sub for a few years in
Easton to at the school I actually went to, and
so it's one of those things where I'm like, I
do enjoy this, even the little moments where when you're
a sub, they don't really need you teaching them too much,
but you know, because it's just like hand out this
work and then they'll do it blah blah. But the
times when the kids actually.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Had jobs I had were like they showed a movie.

Speaker 5 (11:28):
Yeah, the times yeah, exactly rolled in the character you know,
but the times when the when the kids had questions,
I was loving it. I was like, oh this is great,
this is you know, and I just kept coming back
to that. So finally I said, well, I might as
well taking a step further again my teaching license instead
of just being a building slub. And so that's where
took off teaching English. Got in New Bedford for three
years teaching English, and then I got a job which

(11:51):
I don't even and the finally thing I don't even
recall replying applying for this job, but I got a
job teaching for the Department of Youth Services, which is
they're incarcerated.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
You all right, pause on that. We're going to come
back to that. No matter what was it like to
get the teaching license.

Speaker 5 (12:07):
It took me. It took me nine times to take
the test before I passed it. Yep, nine times, So
I would like the Rocky of the English of the
English test, but yeah, it took me nine times. So
that was that was one of those I'm not going
to give up on it. I'm just going to keep going.
Don't get it?

Speaker 3 (12:23):
And did you go up the when you finally took
past it? Did you go up like the three steps
to your front door and do the oh.

Speaker 5 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. No one, no one was looking,
but I did it anyway. What's this limited doing? So?

Speaker 3 (12:39):
What prepared you most? This will be the last question
before the break, first break? What do you think prepared
you most to teach incarcerated kids?

Speaker 5 (12:49):
Just having a It's one of those things, just having
a heart for everyone like this. I always it's one
of those things where there's no bad kids, there's choice
of you know, poor choice.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
There's no bad kid and some kids are out there.

Speaker 5 (13:03):
I always tell my kids at home, I said, they're
just like you. They just you know, but in the
race of life, they have a cinder block tied to
one of their legs, and I just want to help
them un tie.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
So that's kind of what drives me.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
That's awesome. All right, we will take our first break
right here, everybody. We'll be back with John Katie in
about one minute.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
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(14:05):
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Speaker 3 (14:34):
We're back with John Katie, author of many many stories
and books, and the series we're talking about now is
Angela of Death the trilogy. Before we get to that,
of course, I want to ask more about the Days program.
Tell us about the program. It's for obviously incarcerated students.
They made a bad decision. How long are they there for?

(14:57):
Give us just a background thumbnail of the program them.

Speaker 5 (15:01):
Okay, so I work in the detention aspect of but
one of the detention programs. So my students, they've been
arrested for crimes, they've been allegedly committed and they're awaiting trial,
So it could be yeah, some of them have been there,
you know quite you know, it could be upwards every
year or longer. Some kids they could be there two days.

(15:22):
So it's so far, it's so over the map, you know,
all the way across the board.

Speaker 4 (15:28):
That you know, on average probably maybe three months.

Speaker 3 (15:33):
So my question is, how do you teach English to
someone who may only be there three months? How do
you know where you're starting? And do you plug kids
into an ongoing program?

Speaker 5 (15:44):
So if if say we're reading a novel, so i'll
i'll I try to keep it the short stories or
shorter works, just so you know, it's easier to catch
them up or they can pick it up. You know,
a short story you could knock out two days. So
basically I try to keep bit to those shorter books.
But sometimes if we're reading the novel that the kids
are getting into, I'll just I'll have the other kids

(16:07):
and it's also a good way to see how much
state is comprehended. I'll have them catch the new students
up on what's been going on in the book.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
That's cool.

Speaker 5 (16:14):
Certain books has easy to do with, you know, certain books,
you know as long as they point out the major
the major events and whatnot and the major characters, whatever
can catch the kid. It's almost like I always joke
with him and I'm like, if it's a new kid,
I'll say we're reading of mice men. I'll say previously
on advice and men. And then I'll have one of
my students like, what's been happening?

Speaker 3 (16:35):
So, yeah, and you've been there for how long?

Speaker 4 (16:39):
This is my seventeenth year.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
Well, yeah, I've known you for a long. Somebody I
didn't know you saw there that long. That's awesome.

Speaker 5 (16:47):
Yeah, And like I said, I I don't even my supervisors.
She's still rasping me every now and then because I
admite it in the interview.

Speaker 4 (16:55):
I literally said, you know, I don't remember applying for this, but.

Speaker 5 (16:58):
It was like, you know, I got it. I got
in there, and I thought it was like an alter
I knew it was an alternative school. I knew it
was in regular public school. But then all of a sudden,
like the gates of the slamm and shut behind me,
and I'm like, where am I? And then I see
this kid returning from court who had like the cuffs on,
and I'm like, okay, where am I? What is this? Like,
I literally didn't know what this was. And I'm like,

(17:18):
I need a job, though, you know, the thing where
I want to teach, and and you know, I'm going
to teach wherever I can teach. I'm and so you know,
that was one of the goods. She said, you look confused.
It was near the end of that she did any questions.
I'm like, no, no, quite, I just don't recall, you know,
applying for this.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
But you know, maybe you didn't know. Maybe you didn't recall that. Sorry,
maybe you didn't recall accepting the job either. Seventeen years later, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (17:46):
Yeah, but now it's one of those things once you
get used to it, it's such a you feel great
at the end of every day. Like when when these
kids get like a good grade they learned. I don't
give generous grade, Like when they get a grade they earned,
their face first it's surprise, and then it's like they
face lights up and I'm like, I don't even know
how many people get to see this side of them,
So I'm blessed that I get to see this side

(18:07):
of them.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Yeah, how what's your teaching schedule?

Speaker 7 (18:11):
Like?

Speaker 5 (18:13):
Tip? It like same uh, same hours pretty much as
as public schools. So we I get there at seven
point thirty, I leave at three thirty at the end
of the day.

Speaker 4 (18:21):
And it's it's one of those things.

Speaker 5 (18:22):
We follow all the same frameworks and standards that public
school has to that way, like when they leave us,
you know, providing they're not you know, committed, you know,
for a longer stay. When they leave us, they can
literally kind of plug themselves right back into whatever high
school they were in because we're following the same curriculum
and standards. Oh that's cool, Well, the same framework and

(18:43):
standards necessarily the same curriculum.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
And you have various classes during the day, just like well.

Speaker 5 (18:48):
For example, I teach English language, arts and reading.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, okay, what's the toughest part of your job?

Speaker 5 (19:01):
The toughest part of my job is sometimes, you know, honestly,
it's hearing some of the kids. They they'll talk about
their life outside of you know, clad outside of where
we are, which you know, it's good for them to
get it off their chest and talk to other kids
about it, but sometimes the stories are the heartbreaking. Like
it's one of those it's not even culture shock, it's
one of those oh man, no, that's I'm sorry, you know,

(19:25):
and I'm sorry that happened. And then it's so certain
moments like that where I realized I've been you know,
I've had great upbringing, I've been blessed, and it's one
of those things where not everyone's got that same deal,
you know, you know, that same fair deal. So it's
one of those things where that's difficult sometimes and then
it's other than that, it's just sometimes they'll come in

(19:48):
it's hard to it's hard to keep them focused on
the on the task at hand. When they're worried about
am I going to get out? It might quite be?
Am I going to know?

Speaker 7 (19:56):
This?

Speaker 5 (19:56):
Sad nailing? They have a whole set of concerns that
I never had I don't have now, and I especially
didn't have it their age, Like, I don't know how
I would have handled it there age You probably wouldn't
have gotten me focused too much on my work if
I have going on.

Speaker 3 (20:10):
Their age ranges for the audience.

Speaker 5 (20:12):
The youngest I've had is fourteen, the oldest I've had
is all the way up to like twenty one.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Literally, what's it will give us? Just one? I'm going
to ask you the best part, But what give us
just one challenging situation and then we then I want
you to talk about the best part of your job,
more than you said about the recognition of the grades
and the smiles and everything.

Speaker 5 (20:33):
One challenge situation. Sometimes there's just not enough time in
the day for all that we want to do. So
because we so on top of the top of tea
just teaching, I'm also what's what's known as a teaching
coordinator there. So every program has kind of their like
their principal. It's then not called principles, but they teach

(20:54):
coordinators because they're really like we're the supervisor to like
whatever teachers are on our pro at our program, like
three teacher program I have, so I'm the supervisor there.
But also I like so I handle all the admin
stuff like the transcripts and any any testing assessments that
we have to uh have to have to give the kids. Yeah,

(21:14):
well I don't always give the m cast, like someone
will come to give the m cast, but there's other
assessments that I got to give, So we got to
give those on top of the teaching, which I don't.
I don't complain about it, you know, you know, not
even to myself, what to my wife, But because it's
one of those things where the more we can give
these kids, the better, And I'm glad we can give
them more.

Speaker 4 (21:34):
You know, it's just what you know.

Speaker 5 (21:35):
Sometimes it's you know, you're you wait, like I said,
you wish there were more hours in the day so
you could do more for them.

Speaker 4 (21:42):
So that's that's a.

Speaker 5 (21:45):
Challenge, all right.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
Now, tell us the best part of the job, the best.

Speaker 5 (21:48):
Part of the job is is just like I was saying,
when they get good see actually say no, I was
gonna say when they get good grades, but just seeing
them shine, and is that not everyone gets to see
like a lot of a lot of these kids, society
has already written them off. And then sometimes when they
see that society's written them off, they write themselves off.

(22:09):
So it's one of those things. They're in a it's
in a tough cycle. And so when I get to
see them, like rooting other kids on to read and
all like that was one thing. One time there was
a kid who didn't read at all, but all of us, uh,
all of his classmate people were rooting them on to read.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
And when they were stumbling.

Speaker 5 (22:26):
Over words, they were helping them with the words, and
that is they didn't have to do that, like they
never have to do that. But it's one of those
things where when I get to see that, and it
does happen a few times a week, stuff, not necessarily
that specific thing, but things like that, I.

Speaker 4 (22:41):
Was like, oh, I wish everyone could see this. This
is what I get to see, you know, because and.

Speaker 5 (22:45):
Now it's whenever I see, you know, things on the
news where you know, someone said, get arrested or for something,
you know, I do well. If it's a young kid,
I do worry about them, even though they made a
bad choice. I got home make excuses for their choice,
and nor do they. But you know, it's one of
those things where you know half the time, if it's

(23:06):
the teenager, I know where they're headed. And I hope
and I hope that whoever they heading to care as
much about their job as I do, which I'm sure
they do. A lot of the teachers for the US
definitely care about their job or you.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
Know, or find another job. Right In other words, they're
there for a reason. Yeah, yeah, when did you know
you wanted to be I don't know if the word
is novelist I'll say writer, but more than a screenwriter, more.

Speaker 5 (23:32):
Than a screenwriters. When I wasn't telling any screenplays.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
You still you still had a passion to write.

Speaker 5 (23:38):
Oh yeah, I love telling stories. And even though first
I like the book the book that's Staying up to
for Miss Jones, that book there's a lot it's heavy
on the dialogue because I was coming fresh off of
writing screenplays. Yeah, but I've always wanted to tell like
stories like that, and I wanted to write the movies.
And maybe someday we'll get back to writing a movie
if they want, if they know, or if they ever

(23:59):
want to make a movie.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
You have like the Angel of Death.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Books, I would yeah, like right now, I could see that.
I could see that. Where did you get the idea
for staying after from Miss Jones that I.

Speaker 5 (24:08):
Was trying to write cat So before I wrote anything
fantasy wise or anything, I was trying to write the
next Catcher in the Rye. So Catcher in the Rye
is a book I read probably like fourteen fifteen times. Yeah,
I've been chasing that book trying to write like that.
I could have a write in that style or in
that voice, then it's that's what I've been searching for

(24:30):
all these days. So that was my attempt at that.
And I also tried to I tried to write a new,
different style of writing that I hadn't seen before for
that book. So if you ever opened that book, like
it's written from I believe this three so far long
ago now.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
But uh voices there at least three or four different
voices meeting yeah characters.

Speaker 4 (24:50):
Yeah, in that book, the streetom characters.

Speaker 5 (24:51):
And I wanted a story that like just went all
the way through one continuous thing, like almost like a
relay race of narrators. I Uh so I did that
and then I was like, oh, that was kind of
fun right in that way. And so that's kind of
how the Angel Angel of That ones are written too,
Like I wrote it in that style. But yeah, so
the stand aufter for Miss Jones, that was me. That

(25:13):
was me trying to write My Catcher in the Rye,
And that was me trying to and trying trying something
new with like a different way of writing books, hoping
hoping that would take off. Which funny thing about that is,
so I had self published that and then I had
it had it on Amazon, but then I eventually took
it off Amazon and tried to shop it around to

(25:35):
agents again and an agent wanted it, and so I
was all excited and so uh and so she and
she had represented people that like she represented the guy
who wrote holes.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
Oh wow yeah.

Speaker 5 (25:46):
So I was like, oh, this could really happen. And
then all of a sudden, she said, now is this first?
Uh you have first right, so you know, have you?
And I'm like, oh, well, yeah, I just I self
published on Amazon. Then I but I took it off.
You know, it's exclusive rights, and I took it off,
so it's you know, it's my right. And she goes, oh,
well we can't do anything with that. No one's going
to take that. And I'm like, oh, so what's memory. Yeah,

(26:08):
So from that day for never again. That's one of
the things I learned in business, business wise, on the
business end of the writing. I'm never doing that again.
Not there's nothing wrong with self publishing. There's nothing wrong
with at all with it. That's the route you want
to go. But in this instance it cost me. Who
knows what you know?

Speaker 3 (26:27):
So what is what happened? Legally?

Speaker 5 (26:30):
So they just the agent claimed, She's like, well, no
publisher's going to take it on now because they won't
have first rights to it because like Amazon or create Space,
whoever it was that I that.

Speaker 4 (26:39):
I had done with it.

Speaker 5 (26:40):
They she said, they have.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
First right, so they could still retain rights to it. Yeah,
so I'm like that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (26:45):
I'm like all right.

Speaker 5 (26:47):
So I'm like, I'm even if I don't sell another
book for a while, I said, I'm not going to
do that again, just because you know, and like I said,
people have been uber successful with you know, self publishing.
It's one of those things where in this particular instant
didn't work out so well, or it could have been
better had I not done that.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
So what was your self publishing process? What did that
look like?

Speaker 5 (27:11):
I literally just once I once I shopped at around
the Asians stand out to mis Jones, and no one
seemed to be biting. I looked on Amazon and someone
had said that you can self publish for them. I'm like, oh,
so I had gone on and they said, scroll all
the way down and there's something called create Space. I

(27:33):
don't even know if it's still on there, but you
were able to self publish through them with the you know,
ebook versions and in the paperback versions and whatnot. So
I had done. I was like, well, I'm gonna do
this no matter what, you know, I'm going to make
sure people can read my book.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
No matter what, even if it's just me publishing it.

Speaker 5 (27:50):
And so I did that, you know, sofortunately it could
have won, copies were sold. You wife bought one, which
I was very really turned out. But at first, you know,
there's some risky scenes in it. So I was like
at first when when she told me that she bought it,
and I was like, I only knew her from church on.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Writing for a friend.

Speaker 5 (28:13):
Yeah. But the funny thing is so one of my uh,
one of my friends, one of my good friends, his
sister had bought it for her her daughter because she
thought it was like like a middle grade or some
sort of like you know, a very instant book. And
I'm like, oh no, no, she can't read that. No,
she can't.

Speaker 4 (28:34):
Like I said, it does get risky, you know, this
is uh.

Speaker 5 (28:37):
I don't know what I was going for, but I figured,
you know, they don't hold back and catch them the rise,
so I'm not going to hold back. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah, So you how much would you roughly spend on
a self published book like that?

Speaker 5 (28:49):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (28:50):
No, I remember so long ago, like total ballpark.

Speaker 5 (28:56):
You don't you don't really spend you don't really spend much,
but you don't mean much. Yeah, it's one of those
things like Amazon makes the chunk of it. Yeah, it's
for I think I made for whatever was sold for
what I have a per copy sold. I think maybe
I made it was crazy, it wasn't even fifty and

(29:18):
then it was and until years later, until I finally
like got you know, a notable publisher in a very
good who's very good at dor job.

Speaker 4 (29:29):
Then I realized I'm.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Like, oh man, yeah, yeah, they it's an education.

Speaker 4 (29:34):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's all It's all an education.

Speaker 5 (29:37):
And that's one of the things where you know, the
writing parts fun too, but half the job, half the
job is like business wise, like promoting yourself and all
that stuff and so and that's like those are all
learning curves up there. Like back then, I was hardly
promoting that. I did like one book signing at a restaurant. Yeah,
which was cool, you know everyone while you were eating.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
A hot dog.

Speaker 4 (29:58):
Yeah, most of the ye right, friends game, So it
was a good time.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
But all right, we're going to take our second break.
We'll come back to a little bit more about the
business of writing, and then we'll get into the book specifically.
Everybody another minute, we'll be right back with John Katie.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
You're listening to Winning Business Radio with Kevin helene on
W four CY Radio. That's W four cy dot com.
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(30:37):
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Speaker 2 (31:05):
And now back to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helenan
presenting exciting topics and expert guests with one goal in
mind to help you succeed in business. Here once again
is Kevin Helenett.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
We're back with John Katie he is the author of
the series Angela of Death. We'll get to that shortly.
So it's just the one book that you self published, yes, yep.
And so the other books or well if you were
part of anthologies too, So talk about what for those
that don't know. I had to just refamiliarize myself. Sorry,
I can't talk with anthology. What's that like? What does

(31:47):
that look like? And how do you get included?

Speaker 5 (31:49):
So an anthology is like a collection of short stories.
So for example, you know, if you see like in
my My on the on the shelf in my classroom,
like Greatest American Short Stories, and it's like, you know,
but this guy like Mark Queen and everyone in it.
But it's a collection of short stories that they call

(32:09):
an anthology. And sometimes it's by this by the same author,
sometimes it's by multiple more often than not it's by
multiple authors.

Speaker 3 (32:16):
So but yeah, so summer themed and some or not.

Speaker 5 (32:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
Yeah, for the most part they're themed.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, and so you've been in several of those.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
Yeah, So it's funny.

Speaker 5 (32:26):
So Missy, my wife, her cousin went, We're at a
family cookout one time and he said, he said, hell,
you know, I know you're writer and you're trying to
get published, I said. I said, yeah, you can't find
an agent. He said, well, you don't need an Asian
if you for for horror anthologies. He goes, do you
write horror? And I'm like, no, like, I don't even
I don't like horror, get into it, you know, I

(32:49):
never got into horror. Yeah, and maybe when I was
a kid, and never you know, since you know, I
get creeped out away too easy. And then so he said, oh,
it's a shange, you know, because you don't need you
don't need an Asian if you know you sent you
can submit your short stories to like these horror anthology
publishers and sometimes you know it'll they'll take you. You'll
take it on the strength of your story, and then

(33:09):
it can end up on the shelf and Barnes and
Noble and stuff and that.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
He's like, it always happened and stuff like that always happened.

Speaker 5 (33:15):
I'm like, oh, well, I do write horra, so you
know it's got one of those things right completely one ad.
I'm like, no, yeah, I can, I can write hargher.
I do horher yeah, and then so is this horror?

Speaker 3 (33:25):
Slowly I turned yeah, yeah, that's the three two toes everybody.
So I just to be honest, well familiar.

Speaker 5 (33:33):
But yeah, so I I submitted to you know, one
of those. I said, well, first I gave it to
my sister to read. My sister is my beta reader,
which basically, for those unfamiliar with the term, it's she
reads it, tells him my stories, tells me to say garbage,
tells me what I need to work on, tell me
I say good. You know, it's one of those things
usually fortunately not gonna which they're good stories. But so

(33:54):
I sent her the Horror and the first one I
was ever gonna submit, and she said, oh, the writing's great.
You don't kill anybody. And I'm like, well, I don't
want to kill anybody. And she's like, well, it's horror,
so maybe think about that. I'm like, so then from
now from there on, I was like, the stories got
like they started getting accepted but from publishers, but they
got so dark that I'm like, I'm like, finally someone

(34:17):
read it and they're like, that was kind of that's you,
and I'm like, it's not me, that's my character that
I wrote. And I'm like, you know, it's.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
All playing games. Until somebody dies exactly and.

Speaker 5 (34:27):
So but basically because of that, because of my involvement
in getting published in those anthologies and enjoining the horror community,
which HERR community is great, like they all lift each
other up. It's one of those things. I mean, I'm
sure there are people who are trying to do the
next guy, but they're also I find a lot of
people trying to help the next guy. You don't see

(34:47):
that in a lot of just show business in general,
or accounts to show business.

Speaker 7 (34:52):
What have you?

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Entertainment, Yeah, entertainment.

Speaker 5 (34:55):
And so through that I met my current publisher, water
tew Hill PUBLISHM. So I never would have had that
conversation not taking place, And had I not gotten involved
in that horror community, I never would have met the
people who published Angel of Death.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
So, which of your books was first professionally published?

Speaker 4 (35:13):
First professionally published?

Speaker 5 (35:14):
Was Attack of the Three D's Armbies Attack? Okay, and
now I was written that's also D and T publishing.
I met them through the horror community, and so I said,
I get a middle grade horror book, kind of like.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
A goose defined back up define middle grade.

Speaker 5 (35:30):
Middle grade is so that's anywhere from I think like
maybe fourth grade.

Speaker 4 (35:35):
I think they go up to seventh grade.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
Okay, yeah, you know readers. It's the two yeah, middle readers. Good, yeah, yep,
A little bit about that.

Speaker 5 (35:44):
So yeah, I said, I said, do you ever I
had published a number of short stories with them, and
I said, if you ever thought of, like, do you
ever accept middle grade horror? Because I've written like a
goosebump style of middle grade horror. And she said the
owner had said that, funny you mentioned that, because we
would like to go in that direction, you know, also
in that direction, not completely in that direction. So they

(36:06):
published it. And that was my first taste of like
any kind of success with the writing, because a lot
of kids had soul, had bought it and enjoyed it
like they did goosebumps and whatnot.

Speaker 4 (36:16):
So that was I enjoyed writing that. I enjoyed writing that.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
And that got you the first private chet yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:23):
Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
And is that when you were so writing the anthologies?
Was that when you were you would consider yourself, I
don't know what the word is, legit, right, you know,
a legitimate published author.

Speaker 5 (36:37):
Yeah, So it was, and it was funny, and I
didn't even I really didn't even think about that or
say that. I didn't say that. I was obviously thought it,
but I didn't say that until one of the security
guards where he said, he goes, oh, man, you're you're
an author. Now you're a published author. And I'm like, oh, yeah,
it was just yes, he goes, he goes, don't downplay it.
He said, you didn't self publish it. Someone powers your voice,

(37:00):
some one thought the publisher. I'm like, you're right, they did,
you know. So it's kind of like it uh reinvigorated me.
You know.

Speaker 4 (37:08):
One of the things that I'm like, hey, all right.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Yeah, you're right, absolutely, I believe in that. I mean,
and we teach that in our sales training is self affirming. Right, yeah,
I belong here. I'm not a not a the other word,
I'm not an impostor. I belong here. I have value.
I'm you know, I've got expertise, et cetera. So you
have an editor that they provide an editor. You work

(37:31):
with the same editor over and over often.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
For the Angela books.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah yeah, yeah, so if you another series, you might
have another editor.

Speaker 5 (37:41):
Excuse me, no, most likely it'll it'll be the same editor.
She's the she's the primary editor. Over there at Watatower Hill.
So it's Heather Daughtry. That's the main publishers that way.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
So what's that process? Like how many versions do you
end up writing? How many? How many? I don't I
don't know the terminology yet. So is it rewrite? Is
it corrections?

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Draft?

Speaker 5 (38:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (38:06):
So so basically like so I will.

Speaker 5 (38:08):
I send over the original like what I you know,
what I've written, and then she'll go through it with
a fine tooth comb and she'll say, oh, well, this
is you know, this should be changed, but this doesn't
make sense here because you did it on this something,
you did something else on another page earlier. And I'm like,
I didn't even notice that. And that's why he's such
a good editor. Like as much as I've like, I've
read The Angel of Death one, I wrote it ten

(38:32):
years ago, way before I ever met them. So it's
one of those things where I had I've read that
thing cover to cover I don't know how many times,
like and then she looked at it with her fresh
editor eyes and she said, oh yep, And so she's like, oh,
this is uh, you know, he's here's some changes that
it shouldn't be made. And when I made the change.
It wasn't I didn't even have a I had a

(38:55):
you know, they give you a voice, but I didn't.
I didn't want to disagree with She was right about
all of it, like all the kids.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
You wanted to make. It made the book that much better.

Speaker 5 (39:03):
And I'm like, I don't know how I missed that,
but I'm glad that you caught it, you know. So
it's like one of those things where she's really good
at what she does and she's a good author.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
So after the editing is complete, what happens next?

Speaker 5 (39:16):
So then we had the meetings for the for the
cover art, which that alone blew my mind.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
I'm going to show that again.

Speaker 5 (39:23):
Yeah, And we'd go through it was cool, like they'd
go like while they were constructing it, like in the
meeting and they're like, all right, what do we think
about this? What are we about this? Of course I'm
sitting there, I'm like, this is awesome. Everything's awesome, and
they're like, Johnkie, you disagree with Stump some stuff. You know, we're.

Speaker 4 (39:40):
Not going to get anything done saying this is awesome
every everything.

Speaker 5 (39:45):
Again, that's one of those things where you're so excited
that everything's finally happening, Like all this this thing that
you've been dreaming about forever, like for twenty five years,
and now I've been you know, once it's finally happening,
and you're in the moment, You're like, this is awesome.

Speaker 4 (39:58):
This really is awesome.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
You know, like when you wrote the first book, did
you know it was going to be through book series?

Speaker 5 (40:04):
No? In fact, so I wrote the first book. So
the first book I wrote, like I said, I had
written it ten years ago, and I had shopped it
around to a bunch of agents and all of them said,
you know, nobody wants angels. Nobody wants angels. And I'm like, no,
people want them, and they're like no, we're agents. We
know people don't want angel yet. So I'm like all right,
I'm like fair enough. And so then I'm like, oh,

(40:26):
maybe it's just too short. And then I again I
blocked out that nobody wants angels business, and I'm like,
maybe it's just too short. The fantasy novels are longer,
and so I then I shot that around a young,
longer version. They're like, no, nobody wants angels, and I'm like,
oh great, I just invested more time and nobody wanting angels.
And then finally I Josh Lloyd Fox. Actually Lloyd Fox.

(40:51):
He's he's the main the publisher at Watawhiley and he's
an author, a.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
Very accomplished author himself.

Speaker 5 (40:57):
So he had written this series called The Archangel Missions
and I saw her it come through literally while I
was scrolling on Facebook, and I'm like, oh, I'm like,
he likes angels and he's a publisher, and then I
know he's successful. Gad, I've seen his books. And then
I'm like, so I message him about it and he goes,
he goes, yeah, brilliant, send it along, and I'm like, WHOA,

(41:18):
all right, yes, you know. It was one of those
like one of those moments. Yeah. So you know, he
accepted it and he wanted it, and he said, can
I break it up into two books? And I'm like, yeah, absolutely,
you know it was two books originally, you know it
was you know, the original book ended it on X
amount pages or whatever. And so he said great, and
so when he went to when he went to promote

(41:39):
it on Facebook the first time, he said book one
and a trilogy. And I'm like, oh, trilogy, and I'm like,
that's awesome. And then I'm like, wait a minute, I
just probably write that third book one of those things
where when I wrote it ten years ago, I wasn't
thinking trilogy a seria. I just wanted to write a book,
like basically it was for my students.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
Oh that's cool, talk about that.

Speaker 5 (41:59):
I want.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
I wanted to get that. Sorry, yeah, oh I'll talk
about now.

Speaker 5 (42:04):
Yeah. So I it's not often I get a lot
of readers and then like they don't read on the
They'll always say to me, oh, I don't. I don't
really read on the out, you know, when they're not
blocked up or whatever. And then so I'm like, oh,
that stinks. But then I had like one group of
kids one time that they were read they were devouring
anything they can read. It killed time, yeah, you know
if they were especially in the kill time. So they

(42:27):
were reading just about everything that was in there. And
there was like they like these books called the Blueford
High series, which is all about like they're kind of
environmental kind of where they grew up and whatnot, like
Inner City. And then you had and then they liked
their fantasy books, and so I'm like, all right, you
guys love these things. I said, you love you guys
love the Fantasy Hunt and they said yeah, I said,
but we don't. You know. One kid was like, when

(42:48):
I don't really relate to any of the protagonists, like
they're all they're not from where away from then all
these X amount of things. So I was like, ah,
I'm like and I didn't write fantasy at the time.
It wasn't even on my radar. So I hope you
guys find what you're looking for. And then but it never,
nothing ever materialized. And then all of a sudden, maybe
like a month later. It wasn't that night, but a

(43:08):
month later, I had a dream which ended up being
chapter two of The Angel of Death.

Speaker 6 (43:13):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (43:13):
First one where I'm in a nursing home room with
an elderly man who I'd never seen before. I'm just
sitting there with him, though, and then a girl comes
in that looks like Angela and she kisses him right
on the forehead and he flatlines them and she looks
at me and then walks out, and I'm like, what
was that? And then I woke up. Look, I do everything.

(43:34):
I woke up and I wrote it down and so
that literally turned into all of this, and I wrote
I wrote that book. You know, I want everyone to
enjoy it, but they are literally my target audience, my
students that wrote it for them. Wow.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
So all right, a couple of quick more quick questions
on business, and then we'll get into the books themselves.
Let's see how much time do you devote daily or
weekly to writing.

Speaker 4 (43:59):
I had devote least one hour a night after my
wife and gifts go to sleep.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
Okay, and what's the next series or book you're working
on right now?

Speaker 5 (44:08):
I am working on I'm writing a book called ten
Toes Down, which is it's like it's a way of
a slang way of saying all in or you know,
fully supportive, and it's it's about I'm writing stories about
teaching a dys like some memories I've had of times
when these kids have shined, you know, like it's like
I was saying earlier, it's a part of them that

(44:30):
society doesn't get to see. Well, I kind of want
to bring it to society in the form of the book.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
Do you have plans at some point to make writing
full time?

Speaker 5 (44:39):
No, because just I love what I do during the day.
I mean, you know, I I love that I get
to do that during the day, and I love that
I'm living my other that I'm living my other dream
right now also of writing books and having them published.
So I got the best of both worlds right now.
And I never want to leave because honestly, my students

(44:59):
in my job, that's one of my biggest, biggest musse
and inspirations anyways, So for me to leave that, it's
just I feel like a not just like a phony,
but I'd feel like, you know, this is what I love.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
I love my job. Why would I leave it?

Speaker 5 (45:11):
And then you know so, but you know it, it'd
be great if the book's got huge to the point
where I could, but I still wouldn't put it.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (45:21):
Always joke in my boss I'm like, I don't remember
applying for the job, but you're stuck with me, all right.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
Tell us about the first book, Angela of Death.

Speaker 5 (45:32):
So she is Angela is kind of alone, kind of
a loner, but she wants to Like in the neighborhood
where she grew grows up, you kind of have to
be part of something for protection, Like you can't just
walk around or you know, it's not a very safe
area to walk around. And so she's gonna join a
local gang that one of her friends is like one

(45:53):
of the higher ups in the gang, and so her
friend doesn't want another joints. So they do this the
initiation of jumping her in. But they also say that, oh,
you got to kill someone, and so they like they're
setting her up to like kill someone, but really really
it's it's like the guns load to a blanks.

Speaker 4 (46:07):
They just want to see if she would do it.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
They don't.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
They don't want her to do it.

Speaker 5 (46:10):
They don't want her in the gang, like or her
friend doesn't anyway, so she chickens out at the last second.
She's like, well, I'm glad you couldn't do it. And
then but you do have to leave because we're talking
in gang business or whatever, you know. And so she's
leaving and.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
A ride make her protected kind well.

Speaker 5 (46:25):
You know, they are going to protect her on some level,
but they so when she's leaving, a rival gang is
there to like shoot up the house and she gets
killed in the you know, in the in the gunfire like,
and so she wakes up looking down at her at
her corpse, and meanwhile Michael the archangel is there and
he says, basically, you know, what You're going to be

(46:46):
an angel of death now and we're gonna you know,
She's like, well, I can't even take a life. Did
you see what just happened? And he's like, well, you're
not taking it for them anymore. You're taking it for
the big guy basically, and so she she's like, all right, well,
how am I going to do that? And so this
launches her into this whole there's going to be a
next big war battle for Heaven. So she's on the
good guy's side, and you know, it starts out there's

(47:09):
a lot of I pull a lot from the Bible
and put it in there, like where they had their
great battle for Heaven where Satan was cast out and
he took a third of the angels. Those are the
bad guys, basically, Like the story is almost writing itself.
Those are the bad guys, and I just need to
build the good guy army. And then, you know, so
it it turned into it turned from that, you know,

(47:30):
one story into like, oh, well, this could be epic,
and I'll write them for as long as they want
me to, like, as long as they'll let me write them,
I'll write them.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
So a trilogy could become a multibook series.

Speaker 5 (47:40):
Yeah, because I'm trying to. So I'm working on I'm
pulling some of the other characters, some of the minor
characters and giving them their own trilogy right now. Like
one of the characters I'm giving them his own trilogy
right now that I'm working on as well. I got
a couple I got on the book above my students,
and I got that book going on because I do
that because it stops me a lot of times from

(48:00):
having writer's block. Yeah, maybe it takes a little longer
to write some of the books, but it also I'm
constantly if I can't come up with something for a
few days on the other thing, at least I can
work on the other thing. That way, my mind is
that writer in mind is still going, and that discipline
is still going. Discipline is huge with it.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
Yeah, all right. Two last questions, yep, simple ones. How
do people if they want to reach out to you,
what's the best way? Would it be your email? Which
which was in the crawl it's John A. KD C
A d y at gmail dot com.

Speaker 5 (48:33):
Yep, that's one way, and then the other way is
just on so on Facebook.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
I'm John Katie author on X. I guess we call
it now.

Speaker 5 (48:40):
I'm John Katie author Instagram John k Everything's John Katy author. Basically,
it's not it's not hard to.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
Find, okay, good. And the books are available certainly on
Amazon andwhere else.

Speaker 5 (48:51):
Yeah, so Amazon and the publisher's website, which is WaterTower
Hill dot com and then just pretty much where we
always say where Ever, books of sold a bit online
like so Target online, Walmart online, and then Bonn's Noble online.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
Awesome, Well, thank you so much for being here. I
know it. It was a challenge to get you here
on time. You made it because your work schedule, and
thank you, and I'm sure the audience does as well.

Speaker 5 (49:17):
Well, thank you very much, you got it all experience.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
Awesome and thanks everybody else for watching and listening. This
is a show about business and business challenges. This was
a fun one because we get to bring in a
story about the book. If you have concerns about the
sales effectiveness effectiveness of your company, whether you're large or small,
whether it's just you or you have a team, feel
free to reach out to me on Facebook or LinkedIn
and that's at Winning Business Radio, or you can drop

(49:43):
me a note at one of my email addresses Kevin
at Winning Business Radio dot com. Our company is Winning Inc.
Part of Sandler Training. We developed sales teams into high
achievers and sales leaders into true coaches and mentors. Hey,
we're not right for everybody, but maybe we should have
a conversation. Thank you as always to producer and engineer
Wan Front of the job, well done. Thank you one.

(50:04):
Be sure to join us next week. That's Monday, April
twenty eighth. My guest will be Timothy Sword's executive coach
and sertiful certified mindfulness teacher. I'm looking forward to that.
Until then, this is Kevin Helenian. You have been listening
to Winning Business Radio with your host Kevin Helenin If
you missed any part of this episode, The podcast is

(50:25):
available on Talk for Podcasting and iHeartRadio. For more information
and questions, go to Winning Business Radio dot com or
check us out on social media. Tune in again next
week and every Monday at four pm Eastern Time to
listen live to Winning Business Radio on W four CY
Radio W four.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Cy dot com. Until then, let's succeed where others have
failed and win in business with Kevin Helenan and Winning
Business radio