Beyond Balance: Creating Fulfillment in the Modern Workplace with Dr. Tracy Brower

Join in as we engage with Dr. Tracy Brower, sociologist and author, to discuss redefining work-life balance and cultivating fulfillment in today's dynamic work environments. Drawing from her extensive research and publications on happiness, work-life fulfillment, and the future of work, Dr. Brower offers insights into building cultures that prioritize well-being, connection, and purpose. This conversation is for leaders aiming to navigate the evolving landscape of work and employee expectations.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has
been brought to you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week. Great
to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. If
we've not met before and you don't know me, I
am a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, local therapists,
speaker and author. My team and I at Gusto Now
help companies to unlive and fortify their operations by building dynamic,

(01:27):
high performance cultures, inspirational leadership, and nurturing managers activated by
meaning and purpose. And did you know that inspired employees
outperform their satisfied peers by a factor of two point
twenty five to one. In other words, inspiration is good
for the bottom line. You can learn more about us
and how we can work together at Gusto dashnow dot
com or my personal side at Leascoortes dot com. Before

(01:50):
we get into today's program, I'm thrilled to announce that
registration has been open for a while now for a
fabulous new conference for women for which I'll serve as
the MC. It's called Thrive in twenty five and is
jam packed few days in Chicago June twenty fifth through
the twenty eighth, twenty twenty five and is designed to
develop women as whole selves, from bolstering your mindset to
your financial acumen, to leadership, to incorporating nature and art

(02:12):
into your life to raise consciousness, and much more. You
can visit thrive in twenty five dot com from more
information and register using my promo code Gusto all caps
to gain access to the free books and programs I'm
gifting to participants.

Speaker 4 (02:24):
We hope to see you.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
There getting in today's program we have with us today
Doctor Tracy Brauer. She's a PhD sociologist studying happiness, work,
life fulfillment, and the future of work. She's the author
of the Secrets of Happiness at Work, then Bring Work
to Life. She is the vice president of Workplace Insights
with Steelcase and a senior contributor to Forbes and Fast Company.

(02:45):
Today we'll be talking about happiness and work, life fulfillment
and how we can put them into action and into
our culture. She joined a study from Holland Michigan. Doctor
Tracy A hearty welcome to Working on Purpose.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
Thank you thanks for having me looking forward to it
so welcome.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
I'm delighted that we met through Forbes and as I said,
before we got an air. When I saw what you
were doing, I went on LinkedIn and look, she's got
to come on. We are so aligned. And so let's
first celebrate your books here. So this first one, Bring
Work to Life, beautiful book, it's just gorgeous, then, which
came out in twenty fourteen. And then this one, The
Secrets to Happiness at Work, and I love this. This

(03:23):
one came out in twenty twenty four So we'll be
talking ladies and gentlemen from both of these books as
we go along here. So kudos for bringing those to life.
I know what that takes.

Speaker 4 (03:33):
Thank you appreciate it. Yeah, they're like children at some level.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Oh, no question, Yes, and they something may behave on
their own sometimes and make their own decisions, don't they
without consulting the parent? Yes? I know. Well let's start
with this this first topic that I just thought was
so I don't know, it kind of tickled me when
I was reading it that you wrote about how work
life balance was such a wrong notion in twenty fourteen,

(03:59):
and another better way to appreciate that and approach it,
which I want to get to. But what I find
so amazing about that, doctor Brower is that you know today,
here we are in twenty twenty five, and boy, is
that really a central issue for people today. So let's
talk a little bit about why. And I agree with
you why work life balance is the wrong term. What's
the better term to work for and aspire to?

Speaker 4 (04:21):
Yeah, it's so relevant, isn't it. It's like a time
work to think that that was eleven years ago, that
we were writing about it, or that I was writing
about it at the time, and that you were aligned
with that as well. I mean, I think the problem
with work life balance is it's really zero sum, right.
It suggests that there's work or there's life, and we
have to make some choice. That's first. Secondly, it's precarious, right,

(04:43):
Like we're going to balance and we're going to fall,
and we're not going to be able to have it all.
And I actually think that it's not enough, Like we
can really strive for more than just work life balance.
And the thing that is most important is that work
is actually part of a full life. I mean, we
all need vacation, we all need time away, but we

(05:04):
also crave to make a contribution to our community, to
express our talents, to have an instinct to matter and
work is part of that, you know, getting off of
the couch, getting out of the door, working with people
either virtually or in person, who kind of care what
you're doing and are counting on you to be part

(05:26):
of the deliverable and are counting on your contribution. Those
are really healthy and helpful and constructive parts of a
full life.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, I completely agree. And I remember also many years
ago when I was when I was speaking and then
at that time about how outdated that work that idea
was work life balance, and then of course integration is
really powerful. I also like work life harmony as something
to go for as well. I think that's really powerful,
and the idea of dancing and having it all kind

(05:57):
of thing. I really like that.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
Yeah, like navigation as well, because there are abs and flows,
there are ups and down seasons of life. Right we're
navigating that effectively and integrating work in life. That's really
that's really the best week. Get that it gets.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
Absolutely and just really quick. On that note, I had
Rashad Tabaccuola on my on my show a few weeks
ago or I guess it was last week, and he
wrote a book called Rethinking Work, and he really talks
about how diverse the workforce is today. You have people
that are you know, entering and wanting to go all out. Man,
I'm just I'm going for it, I mean going for
the gusta. And you have people that are like, I
need to take care of younger children or maybe my parents,

(06:35):
or I'm trying to sunset. I just want to work
seventy five percent or fifty percent, and you know, accommodating that.
And because we want to be able to accommodate and
include many people in the workforces we possibly can for
a healthy nation and to get people more opportunities. And
I think there's so much opportunity to help leaders recognize
and learn how to accommodate that, how to pull off

(06:56):
that dance.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yes, I love that. And you know, we talk a
lot about generations at work today. And I always like
to think that life stage is actually a more salient concess.
Where we are in life a lot of times matters
more than how old we are, and we have different
priorities at different points in our life. We all care
about growing our career, but that might be a higher

(07:18):
priority when we're early career, right. We all care about
leaving a legacy or mentoring others or coaching others, but
that might be a higher priority as we're later career.
Right in the mid career, we're threading the needle and
connecting the dots, and so I think that's key for
leadership is understanding uniquely on what people's priorities.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Are totally align. I don't think there's really tunity. Things
you could say, Tracy, that I wouldn't say. I agree. Okay,
So this is a term that I had, I hadn't
really heard before, and this is one of the reasons
I love. This has been ten years and I part
of the reason I do to show the way that
I do, Tracy, is it really is kind of curated
content I pull out from your book, the stuff that

(07:58):
builds on or ads a freshing way, something that we
haven't talked about before. So I hadn't really heard of
this idea of work life supports the way that you
describe it. I mean, of course I know this exists,
but I hadn't hear spoken about that way. So let's
talk about what our work life supports, why are they
important to organizations? Just kind of give our listeners of
viewers a little bit of orientation on how leaders can

(08:20):
use these. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Absolutely, So I think about work life supports as kind
of the benefits, policies or practices that support people in
whatever stage of life they are, as we were saying,
that help them in terms of navigating, in terms of integrating,
in terms of finding this harmony. And I really love
there's a concept by Patricia Voyd Danoff who is a

(08:42):
researcher in this area of work life, and she talks
about capacity and demand, and so our sense of having
the appropriate navigation or integration or balance for those people
who prefer that language, is really relative to our sense
of demand, how much demand we feel is being placed
on us, and our sense of capacity to deal with it.

(09:04):
And so when we think about work life supports, they
can work on either the demand side or the capacity side. So,
for example, if we give people more flexibility and when
and where and how they work, that might reduce a
sense of demand. Or if we give people wonderful opportunities
for growth or learning or coaching, that might give them

(09:25):
increased senses of capacity in terms of how they're able
to address the demands that they're facing or the responsibilities
that they're facing. So I really like that idea of
work life supports that work on both the demand and
the capacity side and are very diverse and varied in
terms of what we can bring people from employee assistance
programs to affinity programs to ergs, employee resource groups to

(09:50):
great leadership, to coaching, to learning and growth to flexibility,
lots of different ways that we can mix and really
deliver those fits to people.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
What I like about that tracy that I so that
so speaks to me is when those are well situated
and well structured and managing an organization, as you know,
what happens is now we get more of the fuller
human being who we can work with to tap. So
you're you know, so one of my guests told me,
I forget who it was sometime ago that most most

(10:23):
employees are really only because of lots of constraints and
other things put pulling on them, really giving five percent
of their potential at work. What if we got to
ten percent, twenty percent? How would that change your game? Right?
So that's why I'm such a fan this idea of
incorporating work life supports to be able to unleash, you know,
much more of that person.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
Yes, and the other model that I really like is
thinking about whether work is nurturing or extractive. I think
a lot of times we think of an extractive model.
We're pulling as much as we can from people, and
we want the best from them. But what if work
was nurturing? What if you left feeling even better than
when you arrived. What if you're feeling even more, even

(11:05):
more fulfilled and energized.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
That sounds good to me, which takes us where I
want to go next. Work as a source of happiness,
a men's sister. And back on that life stage thing.
You know, I'm sixty and I have got I work,
I've got way more energy, I've got things to do
in this world. I'm living my purpose and I do
finish the day oftentimes feeling man, that was a great day, right,

(11:31):
and I want that for more people. I will first
just say a quick story that when I was out
speaking at a conference I guess it's been two weeks
in New York City and it was on the inspirational Leadership.
I gave the keynote and afterwards this young man came up.
He said, I loved everything that you said, and I'm
so aligned with it. And he said, I'm so reminded,
He says, today I am I'm a videographer for this

(11:51):
conference company, and I absolutely love, love, love what I do.
He said, But five years ago I got into this.
Five years ago, he said. Before that I'd been working
for the postal service for many, many years, and I
just particularly just really didn't I hated what I was doing,
to the point that he said, almost every single day
I went looking to find a way to take myself out.

(12:11):
Could I walk in front of a car? Could I
let myself all down and flight of stairs? Can you imagine?
This is real? So, listeners and viewers, if you're feeling
this way, obviously there's help for you. And leaders know
that there are people on your team who feel this way.
So let's talk about happiness. Let's talk about and I
like how you talk about choosing happiness, choosing fulfillment. You're

(12:33):
activating that you're reaching for. It's there for you. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
Absolutely. I think one of the biggest myths of happiness.
I think about the silver platter myth. That's the idea
that when the silver platter arrives and everything is as
it should be, then I shall be happy. Another way
to think about this is when then thinking, when I
get through this hard project, when I get through this
thing in my personal life, when I get the promotion,

(12:58):
then I shall be happy. And we're in reality empowered
to create the conditions for happiness. And the paradox of
happiness is the more we really strive for happiness for
its own sake, the less likely we are statistically to
accomplish it. For two reasons. One, we're chasing something which

(13:18):
reminds us we don't already have it number one. Number Two,
if we're chasing happiness for its own sake, that tends
to be more personally oriented, which is negatively correlated with happiness.
More positively correlated with happiness is contributing to others, thinking
about how we are reaching out, thinking about how we're
helping and connecting with others. And so that's the paradox.

(13:40):
So when we turn that and think how do we
create the conditions for happiness and how do we empower
ourselves to do that, that gets us there a lot faster.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
Actually, I appreciate too how you talk about you know,
when you can start to recognize some of the things
that you can do, you know, what is happiness and
we talk about it, it's immersion. So when we immerse
ourselves in something, we can start to tap that that happiness.
It's vibrancy and I love that. Why my company is
called Gusto now, it's because we are looking to help

(14:11):
organizations to increase their vibrational capacity, of their energy and such.
You also say that happiness is mattering, which is what
you talked about earlier. And so when you can start
to recognize, well, what, how how would I know if
I was happy? You know, these source of things you
might be engaging in these kinds of activities.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
Yes, exactly, it's not just bond bunds and butterflies. It's
that dedication, it's that vibrancy, it's that mattering, and it's
that immersion, which are similar to the flow state.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Actually, yes, absolutely, Okay, So we got to talk about purpose.
You talk about how we can choose purpose and why
it matters so much, So let's talk about that.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
Yeah, So purpose is actually three things. Purpose is a
sense of something greater than ourselves number one. Number two,
it's a sense that we can make a unique contribution
to that thing. And number three, it's always got to
be about people. Well, we will sign up for fifteen
percent annualized growth as good corporate citizens. But what will
really get us out of bed in the morning is
thinking about how we're affecting humans, how our work affects

(15:11):
his work and her work and their work, and then
finally humans at that value chain and purpose tends to
be more community oriented. A lot of times we think
about meaning as more personal, purpose as more community. We're
showing up together to do something and we each have
a role to play.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
I really I like how you talk about that. I've
been in the purpose space for a long time, but
I like how you talk about that. Okay, so I
also like how you talk about how you know it
grounds you and it and it connects you. I really
like that too. It focuses you. You also say that
focuses grounds and connects you, and I think that's really powerful.
When I'm out speaking, a lot of people are like,

(15:50):
you know, desperate to find their purpose, and they also
think it's got to be something like we're saving you know,
you know, eight billion starving children someplace, and then it
doesn't need to be that way. You're setting yourself up
for complete failure really and disappointment.

Speaker 4 (16:04):
Yes, exactly. I always say, we don't have to be
solving world peace or world hunger. We're doing the small
thing that we do well. It's that idea of ekey guy,
your reason for waking up in the morning. It's the
Japanese grandmother. Her reason for waking up in the morning
is to make soup for her family. It's the small
thing that you do that matters to other people. And

(16:25):
so I think if we can take the pressure off
in terms of purpose, think about purpose now with an
upper case P, but a lowercase P. Right, we're doing
our best. We're making our contribution. We're making our unique contribution,
and that really really matters.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
Beautiful And on that note, list let our listeners and
viewers consider that possibility and opportunity and take our first break.
I'm alis QUOTEZ, your host, who've been on the air
with doctor Tracy Brauer, who is a PhD sociologist studying happiness, work,
life fulfillment, and the future of work and serves as
the vice president of Workplace Insights for Steelcase. We've been
talking about some of the concepts that she researchers and

(17:00):
she knows work well in the organization. After the raak,
we're going to start talking about passion We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

(17:43):
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Eli, send an email to a
lease A lisee at a Lascortes dot com. Now back

(18:06):
to working on purpose.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on purpose. I'm your host, doctor release Cortes, as I too,
am dedicated to creating a world where organizations thrive because
they're people thrive, and they're led by inspirational leaders that
help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do
business that betters the world. I keep researching and writing
my own books. So one of my lateies came out
called the great revitalization, how activating meaning and purpose can

(18:33):
radically in liven your business. And I wrote it to
help leaders like what we're talking about here, understand the
needs of today's very diverse workforce and then help build
a culture instead of practices to be able to address
that for them through twenty two Best Practices. You can
find my books on Amazon or my personal site at
Leastcoortes dot com if you are just joining us. My
guest is doctor Tracy Brower. She's the author of the

(18:54):
Secrets to Happiness at Work and Bring Work to Life.
So let's talk about passion. And before we do, let
me situate one of the things that's kind of interesting
for my world is as a logo therapist, what that
really speaks to is it's the it's the philosophy that
our major concern as humans is finding meaning in life
and work, and it's our it's our chief source of

(19:16):
energy as well, and we have our and our and
our meaning is always registered along our value systems. So
why you find meaningful will be different from what I
find inful because we have different values. So when I'm
out speaking to audiences very often, I will usually at
some point fairly early into the conversation, I will deliver
a question. As I'm situating these kinds of meaning, these

(19:36):
sources of meaning, I'll ask the audience what are you
passionate about? And as I delivered the question and it
sinks into the minds of the audience members, they do
give They do say things that they find, you know,
what they're passionate about. But what would you guess is
the number one most often given response.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
I would say probably family, personal matters.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Those are given. However, by far and away, the most
common answer giving them, the one that's given the most
often is I don't know. People recognize in that one
moment when I deliver the question that they do not
have an answer to the question. So why they've gotten
on the hamster wheel and they've lost their connection to
their passion. So I wanted to talk about you know,

(20:24):
you have a section in your book about discovering your passion,
and I think people desperately need that, Tracy. So let's
talk about one, why is passion important at work? And
then we can get into how we can start working
on discovering it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:38):
Absolutely, I mean passion is important at work so that
we stay energized passion is important at work so that
we stay on the path of what's most important to us,
and it helps us make choices that will help us
to be most energized. And I always like to say
that the best case scenario is when we have the
most possible overlap between what we love to do and

(20:59):
what we have to do. And it's a myth that
we would ever have perfect overlap. Some people have it,
but I think it's less common, right, But the more
overlap think about a Van diagram, the more overlap we
can get, the better. So knowing your passion helps you
make choices, it helps you tune into your energy. I
think it helps you connect with other people better as well.
It also helps you perform better. And we know that

(21:23):
we tend to be healthier as well. So there's so
many benefits not only for individuals, but for teams and
organizations as well.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah, and so I like the idea. You know, you
talk about some things you can do. Start embracing your
first person, you know, consider what is that you love
to do, all this sort of thing, Imagine yourself in
a situation that you might love. So I think people
have forgotten how to do some of these things.

Speaker 4 (21:49):
Yeah, exactly well, and I think there's sort of a
process component and then there's a content component. So from
a process standpoint, statistically, there's some research that when we
put ourselves in the first person that's actually really helpful.
Sometimes we think about our passion or we think about
our future in the third person, like we kind of
think about it in an observational way, But if we

(22:10):
really put ourselves in that position and imagine what that
would be like, that's really helpful to connecting with our passion.
The other thing we can do is really really think
about what advice would we give to our younger selves,
you know, that's one way to think about it. Or
think about what would your tomorrow self say to your
present self in terms of the choices that you're about

(22:32):
to make, or your next to yourself say to this
self in terms of the choices that you're about to make.
And I think there's always this important balance between looking
toward the future and then also reflecting on the past.
In fact, this is a little bit of a tangent.
But when we're in nature, there's some new research that
helps us flow better between past, present, and future orientations.

(22:57):
So when we're thinking about our passion. We can reflect
what did we love to do as a child, or
what did we really love to do in that one
job that we loved best, Or when we had that
amazing boss, what was it that that boss blought out
in us?

Speaker 3 (23:13):
Right?

Speaker 4 (23:14):
That's the reflection past element, And then we can also
think about the future. What might we like that to
be in the future. I had a colleague who used
to every year she would do a vision board where
she would kind of do a collage literally a collage
and say, you know, what do I want that future
to be. If we spend too much time in the future,
we give away the present. If we spend too much

(23:35):
time in the past, we give away the present. But
when we find that balance between the two, it can
be a really really good way. I always like to think, too,
if you're procrastinating on something, what is it that you
love to do while you're procrastinating?

Speaker 3 (23:49):
Right? Or that's a great question, yeah, like kind of.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
Fun, right? Or what would you do if if you
won the lottery and you didn't have to worry about
any money, or you know, and your mortgage, you're buying groceries,
what would you do? Some of those are really good
clues to our passion.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Just as a side note, I let's see last October
I keynoted another conference here in South Texas, and after
I spoke, it was also on inspirational leadership. The organizer
got up and she said, I want you all to
know that the reason I brought at least to you
as for this year speaker is because I sat in
her audience in February and she asked that pesky question
about what are you passionate about? And I was one

(24:27):
of the people that didn't have an answer, And she
said after the conference, after that session, I went looking
for just what is it that really lights me up
beyond what I'm doing in my job, And I realized
I love to teach. So I have this adjunct job
at the local university and I've been teaching on the side,
and all of that has been spilling over into the
rest of my life. And she goes, I know my

(24:49):
boss is in the room. She's going to say, Oh,
that's what happened to you. Yeah, that's what happened to you, right,
isn't that great? And so it's so beautiful and so
important to go find and pursue what you're passionate about
ladies and gentlemen. It's so important for your whole life.

Speaker 4 (25:05):
Yes, exactly. And there's that relationship to energy, and there's
actually the relationship to our last segment as well. If
we look at the work life literature, we know that
there's spillover. When I'm happier in my work, I tend
to be happier in my work or my life outside
of work, but a lot of people don't know the
opposite is also true. So we can think about happiness

(25:26):
both inside of work and outside of work as a
full range. So when I do things like volunteer work
or community service, or I work in my neighborhood with
people that matter to me, that happiness that I derived
there actually increases my perception of happiness in my work.
But it's all about passion. It's all about what energizes us,

(25:48):
and what are the things that we're excited to work
hard for when even when something is hard, we're really
still energized to do that. That's frequently a clue to
our pastime.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
I think that's just that's brilliant advice, and of course
I aligned with it. I mentioned you mentioned relationships. Let's
talk about that next, and again I love the idea
that this it's empowering. And you say, choose relationships, and
there are many ways that you talk about how to
really develop them. So let's talk about how you help
people understand how to choose relationships.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
Yeah, so relationships are so critical. We know that well being, depression,
anxiety issues are at a height today, record levels of depression, anxiety,
and well being issues. Fifty percent of people today globally
say that they're lonely. But when we lean into relationships,
that makes a huge difference. There's also some beautiful research
out of BYU that having two or three close friends

(26:45):
is more important to health outcomes than diet, exercise, or drinking,
and on par with smoking. So as a habit, having
two or three close friends, whether we're introverts or extroverts,
is really really critical. So how do we create those
friendships and relationships? I think first we're really really leaning

(27:06):
in and focusing. Attention is one of our most scarce
resources today with everything coming at us and all the
complexity and all the distractions. When we're really focused on
another person, both virtually and in person, that makes a
huge difference when we ask questions, when we attend to
other people when we're paying attention and say, Gosh, how

(27:28):
are you doing today? Or Gee, what's up for you today?
That makes a difference when we listen, when we express empathy.
All of those things seem like no brainers, like yeah, yeah,
tell me something I didn't already know. But I think
we're better at understanding those things cognitively or intellectually, and
sometimes we're not as good at executing. And so we

(27:50):
require an intentionality and a focus today, especially given all
the competing distractions that are kind of out there competing
for real relationship attention.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
I appreciate those are actionable, and I do think people
need some coaching on that. It's I think I don't think.
I do know that a lot of things happened to
us during the pandemic, and we did lose some of
our social intelligence, our relational intelligence, and the relational muscle
to build those relationships, and so I think we do
need to be able to develop those again in a

(28:22):
new and even better way than we even used to
use in the past.

Speaker 4 (28:26):
Yes, exactly. I always talk about the concept of social
jet lag. Younger generations may not have even had the
experiences right, and so now they're building that muscle. I
love the way that you use the word muscle and
social jet leg maybe for those of us who have
been out there. But then, oh my gosh, there was
this pandemic reset, and I think we're still relearning and

(28:47):
kind of renorming some of those behaviors that are required
and again the intentionality and focus that's required.

Speaker 3 (28:56):
Yeah, no question. I do want to quickly cover here
because I know, we guess got a whole show just
talking about this next topic about choosing a healthy culture
over a toxic one. We know that one of the
big reasons that people experience or the companies experience such
numbers during the Great Resignation is people were leaving toxic
managers and toxic cultures. That was a big drive for that.

(29:17):
So you talk about you kind of compare and contrast
several different ways here, but some people may not realize
that they're in a toxic culture. So if you can
just kind of cover off on how we can choose
a few aspects of a healthy culture over a toxic one.

Speaker 4 (29:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think we're really really looking for
culture attributes that really build our resilience. We may be
in a situation where there's tons of stress at work,
but stress can actually be really motivating. There's a beautiful
concept of you stress right, that's the just right amount
of stress and challenge and growth. So I think we

(29:51):
need to really look at what are the aspects of
relationships within the culture. Do we feel more or less connected.
We can look at aspects of leadership in the culture.
Do we feel motivated by vision and mission? Do we
trust leaders? Do we feel that strong sense of inspiration
from leaders? I think we can look at whether or
not there's enough consistency, enough process in the culture, or

(30:13):
whether it's just really chaotic. We may be in a startup,
we may be in a really fast paced culture with
a lot of shifts and changes, but if there's still
a respect for boundaries, I think that is an acid test.
And then I think we can also look for to
what extent is the culture able to adapt and learn
and grow based on competitors and markets and customers. Those

(30:36):
are aspects of a healthy culture, where a stagnated culture
might be more toxically oriented.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
I think the other thing.

Speaker 4 (30:44):
Is that the most sustainable communities are the ones that
meet the needs of both individuals and the community as
a whole. So are we feeling like we can bring
ourselves be ourselves? Those are critical elements as well as
whether we're able to contribute to the bigger picture of
what the culture is trying to accomplish.

Speaker 3 (31:06):
Beautifully said Tracy beautifully said, I think, like I said,
not everybody really fully understands what is a good culture.
Maybe you don't have a lot of work experiences. You
don't know what's really good, you don't know what's really bad.
And so it's important, I think, to be able to distinguish,
as you did in your book and as you just
did there, to help people recognize, oh, this is actually
not good.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
Yeah, exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
You do have a section in your book too about
when it's time with choosing leaving. I forget what the
chapter is, but when it's time, when you've chosen this
time to move on, that's.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, And I've got a little matrix. Any
good sociologists can you make it to you buy two matrix? Right,
But I always thought I like to think about to
what extent are the issues in the culture, either episodic
or systemic, Like is this just a one time thing?
It's going to pass?

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (31:52):
My gosh, we're in the middle of a hard situation
or is it more systemic? It's a pattern that repeats
and repeats and repeats over time, So that's one element
to think about. Think about that on the horizontal access
for example, and then think about how much can you
affect that thing. If it's a smaller thing, and oh
my gosh, you can make a big difference for yourself.
For others, it might be really wise to stay, for example,

(32:16):
But if it's a systemic issue and you just don't
feel like you've got a lot of impact on that
thing or a lot of agency over that thing, then
it might be a good idea to leave. So I
like to think about not just agency in terms of
how much I can impact the thing, but also structure
in what ways is the organization structured or in what

(32:37):
ways do it patterns or systemic kinds of issues that
are getting in the way of a healthy culture.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
Good food for thought for our last break, I'm your
host Doctor Really's cortezu Doo on the air with doctor
Tracy Brauers. She's a PhD sociologist studying happiness, work, life
fulfillment in the future of work and serves as the
vice president of Workplace Insights with Steelcase. We've been talking
a bit about why happiness is important, purpose culture, things
like that. After the break, we're going to talk about

(33:05):
how you can start to improve your communication, which is
radically important, especially when you are managing either a hybrid
or a remote team. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to
invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit

(33:51):
her at eliscortes dot com. Let's talk about how to
get your employees working on purpose. This is working on
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email
to Elise alisee at eliscortes dot com. Now back to

(34:15):
working on Purpose.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Relise Cortes. I mentioned
in the last break that my book, The Great Realization
came out. What I did for you is I created
a very simple three page assessment that you can pull
off my Gusto dationanel site to find out the extent
to which your organization is meeting the needs of today's
discerning workforce. It will help you tremendously to isolate where
you can start to make some improvements if you are

(34:44):
just joining us. My guest is doctor Tracy Browers. She's
the author of The Secrets to Happiness at Work and
Bringing Work to Life. So one of the things that
I one of the many things I appreciate about your
book too, is just I like how you situate an
idea of then you give us some actionable ways to
be able to start to address that. So obviously, as
I mentioned before the break, communication is so so important
and people don't recognize how much it takes to be

(35:07):
effective at communicating. So let's talk about I like your
five c's how people can be more effective in their communication. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:15):
Absolutely, I mean one of the first things is that
we need to focus on clarity. Neurologically, we prefer certainty,
and we look for certainty, especially from our leaders. But
leaders can't provide certainty. We don't have crystal balls, and
so especially as the world becomes more uncertain, the thing
we need to really really focus on is clarity. What

(35:38):
are we wondering, what direction are we going, What are
the things that we know, what are the things we
don't yet know but that we're exploring. So I think
clarity is one of the one of the really really
key things. Another thing that is fascinating is the level
to which we need consistency in leadership. Consistency is one
of the number one things that's correlated with trust and credibility,

(36:02):
also correlated with retention for leaders and so that is
consistency between what I'm saying and what I'm doing. Right,
I used to work with the leader and he used
to say, brilliantly, you're behaving so loudly I can hardly
hear what you're saying. He used to say that to
his director parts, which I just thought was brilliant. So
we need consistency between what we say and what we do.

(36:23):
We need consistency in terms of how we how we
show up over time, Like the tracy that you get
today should be the same tracy that you get tomorrow.
In a year from now. We need consistency and how
we treat people across the team, so we're we have
that equitability. Equity, sorry, equitability, that's a new word for tonight.

(36:44):
I that equity, right, And I think the other thing
is that we really need to make sure that we're
consistent in terms of when we're available and how we
are present. Another element of really interesting research is that
people prefer a consistently bad leader to a leader that
is erratic. That research was done a couple of decades ago,

(37:07):
and then it was repeated recently. We don't want to
wonder at what's going to be happening from day to day,
which we're going to get right, so we want that
consistency and predictability. The other thing that's really really important
as we think about communicating effectively is presence and accessibility.
I always say, we don't need to be twenty four

(37:29):
to seven on call constantly, but when we are present,
when we are accessible, when we are visible, that gives
people a real sense of stability in a world where
we are fearful and anxious. That presence and stability, that
center of gravity is really important. And leaders don't have

(37:50):
to be social workers right. I think sometimes leaders can say,
oh my gosh, the demands today on leadership are incredible.
But leaders don't have to be social workers. Leaders don't
have to solve all the problems. But to the extent
that they can provide resources, that they can be present,
that they can ask questions, that they can listen, that

(38:10):
they can demonstrate that they really are tuned into an employee,
those things really contribute to effective communication and the leadership role.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
I also liked how you emphasized the embracing curiosity, really
being curious when you're when you're communicating, instead of maybe
assuming or imagine they don't need to know this, so
really recognizing, you know what, how are they responding, And
then of course being proactive constantly reaching to communicate, especially
when we are managing a high hybrid or a fully
virtual team, that is essential today and I one thing

(38:43):
I've recognized in the organizations that are struggling and are
trying to force a return one hundred percent back to
the office, part of what happened is they did not
have a good structure in place to encourage or develop
that capacity to communicate in an effective way across a
hybrid or our remote team and therefore they thought they
were failing, which, of course we're going to talk about next. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:05):
Absolutely, Yeah, I always like to think about that. This
is sort of the great sift in terms of leadership.
I mean, the best leaders have always been the ones
who managed to objectives, manage to outcomes, inspire people even
through really really hard times. But the pandemic was a
bit of an acid test in terms of leaders who
were able to kind of step up to the four.
And from a curiosity standpoint, curiosity is kind of the

(39:28):
basis for empathy, right, Like, positively have to respect people,
and respect shouldn't require understanding. I shouldn't necessarily have to
understand everything you stand for deeply in order to respect
you as a person. But curiosity provides a foundation for
that empathy as well. Gosh, what's going on for you?

(39:49):
Where are you coming from? Tell me about your perspective.
Those things are really really fundamental, I think in terms
of how we lead and how we demonstrate that care
for others.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
Right there with you, sister, I can't disagree with anything
that you've said so far, Right, I want to talk
next about our go Next, we talked about this idea
of really failure and this, and where people organizations were
changing a lot of what they were doing because they
felt like they were failing and were not being the
metrics or whatever. But I want to also talk about
it from the vantage point of, you know, the individual experience,

(40:22):
and I like how you part of what you talk
about is choosing growth and learning from failure. And I
think a lot of people are frightened silly of failure,
and I understand, but it has so much utility. So
let's talk about how we can learn from failure and
in the process grow.

Speaker 4 (40:39):
Yes, Oh my gosh, I love this topic because we
are afraid of it, and I think social media has
contributed to this. You know, comparison is the thief of joy,
and we want to, you know, be good at things
all the time, and the instant gratification contributes to that mindset.
But when we can fail effectively, when we can reflect
on what didn't as well, when we can be vulnerable

(41:02):
and open about that, we build relationships. When we can
look at how we can do better next time, we're
able to do better next time. There's some research there's
a fifteen percent rule of failure. When we fail more
than fifteen percent of the time, we might say to ourselves, oh,
this one isn't for me. Maybe ballet dancing isn't my

(41:23):
best approach in terms of my career. But when we
fail less than fifteen percent of the time, we may
say to ourselves, oh, I've kind of got this one.
I'm going on to the next challenge. Because we really
do crave challenge as humans, and we all need time
to relax and do things that aren't so hard, But
we also crave that stretch and that growth. So when

(41:45):
we're able to put ourselves out there, when we're able
to look for the promotion, when we're seventy percent of
the way ready for it, when we're able to give
people growth opportunities and we know that it will take
them a bit to kind of get there, those are
really positive aspects of both individual and leadership approaches. When
we look for that opportunity to fail fifteen percent of

(42:09):
the time, when we push ourselves enough that we fail sometimes,
that is actually really really important to our growth process,
and it's also important in terms of vulnerability. We tend
to have this paradox of relationships as well, like we
feel like we should always be our best, but ironically
when we're more vulnerable when we share gosh, this is

(42:30):
where I struggled, or this is where I could use coaching,
or oh my gosh, I feel good about this part,
but I could really use help on this part. That
kind of vulnerability in terms of where we're not succeeding
perfectly is actually really really good for building relationships as well.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
One hundred percent. Okay, Now I cannot let you get
off the air without talking about how we can choose
success by playing more. I love this whole concept, and
I love, love, love seeing this embraced as a strategy
inside organizations as a cultural practice. And I love how
you talk about how play Foster's innovation and you say
playfulness is linked to humor and the distance from haha

(43:09):
to aha is short, and I think that is delightful.
So let's talk about how we can play more at
work and get the benefit for you.

Speaker 4 (43:17):
Yes, Yes, isn't it cool? And there's actual academic research
on this. There was a beautiful study where I think
productivity increased by twenty percent when teams were playing more together.
And I think we can think about this both in
terms of play and being playful, and all of those
are really really good for our sense of energy play

(43:38):
as well. Let's get together and do some gaming. Let's
make this a playful workshop environment for our new product development.
Let's play in terms of the time that maybe we're
spending with our customers and we're bonding through that experience.
Play works well because we have to figure out the rules.
It gives us a sense of challenge. It gives us

(43:59):
a new context within which we can unleash our creativity.
So absolutely, that distance, as you said, from haha, we're
laughing together, we're playing together to aha is a very
very important proximity. But I think we can also think,
like you know, some people listening might say, you know,
I'm really not that playful, especially at my age and
at my level. But I think we can also take

(44:21):
a playful approach. So how do we turn the problem
inside out? How do we look at it from the
opposite vantage point. I was in a workshop one time
and we were doing design thinking, and we were designing
the worst possible experience in terms of a playland for kids, Like,

(44:43):
how could you design the worst possible experience? Oh my gosh,
I would have long lines and rides that were you know,
the height was two tall so no kid could get
on or I might not have enough snacks or juice
available for you know, for going through the park. And
we used that upside down thinking to really think about

(45:04):
new solutions. And so the point is when we think playfully,
when we think in unexpected ways, that can also help
us with innovation and creativity and with kind of feeling
more fulfilled in our work and feeling more connected to
other people as we're kind of going through that journey together.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Hi in, I'm in. I like having fun too. Okay,
So we're going to finish the show talking about courage
practicing courage, and I love the five ways. I would
love for you to I'll cue them up for you.
I think this is really actionable for our listeners and
viewers to think about how they can practice courage and
why it's important. So the first and one that you
talk about is standing with.

Speaker 4 (45:44):
Yes, Yeah, absolutely, How can we stand with other people
we see that somebody needs our support? How do we
stand with them?

Speaker 3 (45:53):
Awesome?

Speaker 4 (45:53):
And then stand up yes? How are we standing up
for our ideas? How are we standing up for our perspective?
That one's really important, And I think another one is
standing down. I think to We're so about standing up
for things, but we don't need to fight every single battle,
and sometimes standing down is also a really really good idea.

(46:17):
Another idea that I really like related to professional courage
is still standing. There's another element of professional courage that
has to do with persistence with grit. Sometimes, whether we're
standing with someone or whether we're standing up, we've got
to keep at it. And so that's a really really
big one. Another element of professional courage is related to

(46:39):
the failure conversation we had, like owning up to our mistakes,
being authentic, being transparent, being able to kind of stand
up to the fact that I don't know it all
and I need other people's input.

Speaker 3 (46:54):
I also love your stand for What do you stand for? Yes,
I don't know if you've seen the movie Nonas on Netflix?

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Have you?

Speaker 3 (47:02):
It's great. It's a great movie that really speaks, so
it definitely is about courage. He's going first stream to
open a restaurant that's cooks are all grandmothers Nonas. But
he's an inspiring leader. He totally models that, and he
totally empowers his team and in the process of all
this tracy, he totally energizes and invigorates and you know,

(47:24):
some of them were in retirement homes. He pulled them
out of retirement homes to come and cook for them
and they just are on fire.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Right.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
So there's so much sony ways that we can practice
what we've been talking about in today's show. So I
think you know that this show is listened to my
people around the world who are interested in either the
topic that we're addressing that day, or they're just they're
trying to continue to develop their management, their leadership, They're
trying to become better versions of themselves, create these cultures
where people can really come alive. What would you like

(47:51):
to leave them with today?

Speaker 4 (47:52):
Yeah, I mean I would leave them with We're in
this critical moment right, Like we can think so intentional
about the purpose of work and the way that work
can be both the center of gravity and an opportunity
for connection and purpose and fulfillment. And so the more
that we can kind of do that for ourselves, the
number one way people learn is through watching other people,

(48:14):
listening to other people, experiencing other people. So we don't
have to be perfect, but when we can do our best,
thing goes a long way. And when we can connect
with others and seek to empower them as well. Trying
and doing our best is a really, really big deal today.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
I completely agree, and I'm so delighted to know you
better now because I've read your books and at you
on the program. Thank you so much for coming on,
working and purpose and sharing your beautiful heart, mind and soul.
Really lovely to have you.

Speaker 4 (48:39):
Thank you, I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Listeners and viewers, you're going to want to learn more
about doctor Tracy Brower, the work she does, and her books,
so you can visit her at her work at her
personal site Tracybrower dot com. Let me spell that for you.
It's t r a c y b r ow e
R Tracybrower dot com. Last week, if you missed the
Life Show, we are on with Futurists for Shad Tobakuwala,

(49:03):
the author of Rethinking Work, Seismic Changes and Where, When
and Why. We talked about the numerous ways the diverse
workforce has evolved just in the last few years, and
how organizations can respond in their culture, leadership, and practices
to attract, engage, and retain them in very fresh ways.
It was incredible what this man has put into his
book and his work. Next week, we'll be on the

(49:24):
air with David Cohen talking about his new book, Live
Life Swift. Swift, of course, is an acronym which will
teach us various ways to elevate our lives. See you there,
and remember that work is one of the best adventures
and means of realizing our potential and making the impact
we crave and can give us the opportunity to do
business that betters the world. So let's work on Purpose.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four C. Why Together we'll create
a world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion
for performance, and employees are fulfilled in work that provides
the meaning and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's

(50:06):
work on Purpose.