March 25, 2025 • 51 mins
Conflict is everywhere, from our personal relationships to workplaces and society at large. Too often, we either retreat into echo chambers or lash out with hostility, leaving us stuck in cycles of resentment and division. But what if conflict wasn’t something to fear or avoid? In their groundbreaking book Conflict Resilience, law professor Robert Bordone and neurologist Joel Salinas introduce a radical new approach—befriending conflict as a catalyst for growth and connection.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passion and price since February
of twenty fifteen. Great to have you back again this week.
I'm your host, doctor at least Cortes. If we've not
met before and you don't know me, I'm an organizational psychologist,
management consultant, local therapist, speaker and author. My team and
I at gusto Now help companies to enliven and fortify
their operations by building a dynamic, high performance culture and
(01:25):
inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose. And did you
know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers by a
factor of two point twenty five two one. In other words,
inspiration is good for the bottom line. You can learn
more abouts and how we can work together at gustodashnow
dot com or my personal site at least Coortes dot com.
Getting in today's program we have with us today the
(01:45):
authors of Conflict Resilience Negotiating Disagreement without giving up or
giving in a toolkit for coming together in a conflicted world.
Robert Bordon, a Senior Fellow at Harvard Law School, founder
and former director of the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program,
and founder of the Cambridge Negotiation Institute, and also Joel Salinis,
(02:06):
medical doctor, a behavioral neurologist and clinical scientist at the
NYU Grossman School of Medicine, founder and chief medical officer
at ISAAC Health, and former Harvard Medical School faculty slightly
impressive human beings. We'll be talking about why people are
so adverse to conflict and move into such aggressive postures
when faced with it, or when they just completely run
(02:28):
like I like to do, and learn to employ their
three part system to develop what they call conflict resilience
for ourselves. Bob Joins is from Cambridge, Massachusetts, and doctor
Joel joint Is from New York. Welcome, gentlemen to Working
on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Really amazing. As I told you before we got on air,
what you have created here in this book, Conflict Resilience,
It's really really stunning, impressive work. And you know, I
could also hurt somebody with this book. It was so
so dense and full of information. The stories are amazing.
You know your story about your mom, Bob and the
shop store. I mean I could just so relate to that.
I know it just a cringe worthy and true and true.
(03:06):
I got it.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
I got it.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And those things leave an imprint. As we'll talk about
I'm sure. So, well, let's talk about why this book
is just so important. Talk about a timely book, gentleman.
You know, we live in a world of very divisive
conflict today, so let's just talk a bit about why
this book is just so important.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Well, you know, we came We each came at this
book with some different difference as an experience, but then
a real joining about why the timing would be right
for me.
Speaker 6 (03:37):
I think this book, or the idea for the book
and the idea for conflict resilience started almost a decade ago.
I spent twenty one years teaching at HARVD Law School,
and the beginning about a decade ago, I started to
notice a very perceptible shift in the kinds of in
classroom conversations and to make something very complexuch more simple,
(04:01):
it went from interesting and diverse and sometimes conflicted to
pretty dull and boring. And what I knew because I
was on the admissions committee, I knew that we were
still recruiting very interesting people with very different political views,
but that something had shifted, and I did not think
(04:23):
it was primarily the kind of skills. I mean, people
have different levels of skills in this and we can
up their game. We hope our book does upguard their game,
but that what it shifted was that people were less
willing to actually enter into really hard conversations. They tended
(04:44):
to for a whole bunch of reasons that we can
get into later, avoid because it was easier to avoid,
because the cost of the conversation might be very high
in terms of kind of online cancelation or career cancelation.
Because because of social media, people didn't.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Really know how to disagree.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
And so somehow I gave a talk actually in twenty
eighteen where I use this word conflict resilience to try
to distinguish it from conflict resolution. The idea being if
we can't actually sit with the discomfort of our disagreement,
if we can't listen with generosity, and if we can't
represent ourselves in an authentic way but also in a
(05:29):
way that increases the lightly that the other could hear us,
then we could never get to the other things that
I was teaching, which was conflict resolution or negotiation or mediation.
And so that's kind of the world in which I
started to think about this and started to see polarization
and then enter into this this amazing wonderful friendship that
(05:53):
I had with somebody across literally across the river, because
Harvard Law schools on one side of the Charles River
and Harvard Medical School and Mass Generals on the other
side of the river. To enter doctor.
Speaker 7 (06:06):
Salinis, Yeah, I came at this from a different but
related angle. So a behavior neurology just means I work
with people affected by al Zember's disease and related disorders,
and a lot of the research that I've done has
been really focused on brain health and in particular psychosocial
determinants of brain health, So how our social relationships shape
(06:26):
our brain health. And one of the things that I
was noticing in the literature or time was just how
rates of social isolation and loneliness have been steadily increasing
and really trying to understand why why is it that
we've been having this kind of really concerning trend when
things like social isolation and loneliness seem to be really
(06:47):
big health risk factors. It increases risk of mortality gear
than obesity and smoking. And I think in trying to
understand any potential solutions here, I think one of the
things that we came became clear over time was just
there's this real barrier or gap around connection, and specifically
(07:08):
around how we can really navigate conflicts with each other.
With each other, it's almost like we're missing kind of
that kind of like childhood skill set to some degree
that can help us figure out, you know, when we
when we disagree with each other, how we can how
we can get through it. I think one of the
one of the things that's just really clear about connection
(07:30):
in general is that without conflict, there is no connection.
So it's really interesting how we can better better at
navigating that. So I was really fortunate to connect with
Bob who has a very specific skill set on how
do we navigate these things. So together we brought in
both the practical aspects of his field and my field
to try to put together some really useful and usable
(07:50):
tactics here.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I think it's stunning, and I love your collaboration. I
do want to celebrate that. I mean, I've really been
a big fan of law years in general because I
love the way they think you know your traffic and words,
and it's just, you know, it's stunning. And so you know,
brain science, your your world. Doctor Sonius meets you know,
the world of negotiational law and being able to use
language to be able to connect and get a point across.
(08:15):
I just really want to celebrate that you've come together
to do that. How did the two of you come together?
I mean, how did you guys actually meet and decide
to do this.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Yeah, we just.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
Met in the kind of larger, kind of Harvard professional universe.
And it turned out also, it turns out there's a
lot of conflict and big research medical centers, and so
I was actually doing some work at Mass General. You know,
conflict is everywhere, and so we just became friends.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Really, I mean this started more as friendship.
Speaker 6 (08:48):
And I will say I very much credit Joelle on
the idea of writing the book together, because I was
kind of thinking about, you know, is this something, this
book worthy or whatever, and then Joel said kind of
approached me and said, would you want to do something
on this? And my initial instinct was like, how would
(09:10):
that work? But one of the great things about negotiation
in general as a field, and one of my draws
to it is that it's deeply interdisciplinary and it always
has it draws on game theory and behavioral economics and
then social kind of psychology. Uh and so why not
(09:30):
brain signs right, and and and especially in this rapidly
developing field that you know Joel has such expertise in.
And so even though I think my initial reaction was
like a little bit like, well, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
You know, and then and then like the more I
thought about it, I was like, what a what a
brilliant idea. So, Joe, I don't know that that lands
accurate from your.
Speaker 7 (09:53):
Totally it was in was very complimentary. I mean we,
I would say, we engage in a lot of conflict
as we're writing the book in terms of like.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Which you allude to also in the book you throughout, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 7 (10:05):
I mean my my perspective of like medical the medical
world and sciences, I'm always trying to figure, Okay, well,
what's what's behind this, Like what's going on in the brain?
How do we study this? How do we break it
down to its component parts? And Bob has a lot
of really amazing experience, he has a lot of familiar
with with the research done in this area. But I
always kept on coming back in with like the razor
(10:26):
sharp kind of like science leans of like wait, what's
like how do we deconstruct this? How do we replicate this,
What are.
Speaker 6 (10:33):
The funniest things about Like I love what we're doing
these podcasts.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Because well we'll say, oh, we had.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
A lot of conflict, and I was thinking like, oh, yeah,
not that much.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
But that's also in the book, because that's right.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
That's it, this idea of his idea of conflict tolerance
and the way we may people in general, they experience
something as getting to the level of conflict very differently.
And so what for me might have been a very snappy,
fun conversation about a story we might include or not
(11:08):
because I like to tell stories, or maybe Joelle like
riffed on some part of the brain science and I
was like, yeah, this is I'm lost here. I just
thought that'd be fun. You know, at some point in
our relationship we realized that maybe sometimes you actually thought
we were more in a conflict than that was.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
It's interesting, and I think this is so critical to him,
and one of the many reasons I wanted to have
you on is so critical. I'll just quickly share and
then I want I do want to get into the
promise of developing conflict resilience and what it really means
to for relationships the world of work communities in the
world at large. But I can tell you my mother
was married five times for the time she was twenty eight.
(11:48):
I'm from the first marriage when I got married at
thirty five and started having you know, discussions whatever you
want to call them with my then husband. The first
arbam we got into, I literally serving the room to
see which pieces of furniture I'd be taking with me,
because conflict for me means we're leaving, we're moving houses.
That's what it means to me, right, And so that
(12:09):
visceral feeling, you know, that's you know, as I know
you've you've you've taught us in the book doctor Joel.
You know, they got coded right, and neur really coded
for me. So I had to un learned that over time,
and I didn't fully unlearned it, frankly. So let's talk
about just, you know, what could the world and our
relationships and our world of work communities look like when
we learn this stuff.
Speaker 7 (12:31):
Gosh, I mean, I would just say, it's just so
much more vibrant, just so much more creativity, so much
more connection. Bob has this expression that he says that
that I really enjoy just like all of the yeses
don't matter until you get to the first no. And
(12:54):
it's just so true. It's this, you can't really be
truly authentic and without having some conflict in there. And
so if you're if you're really not seeing any conflict,
something is actually not working. And so by Bob and
Bob and I share this, which is like whenever we
hear kind of like new couples talking about how they
never get into a fight, we usually just kind of
(13:16):
like brace ourselves.
Speaker 6 (13:19):
Was it just the first week, That's okay? If you're
in month eight, I'm worried.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, we're not really connecting here, We're not really talking.
Speaker 6 (13:29):
Yeah, someone is afraid or maybe both people are afraid too,
you know, say no or say I disagree, or I
see it differently. And there's just something about that first
working through of the difference that gives you some more
faith in the validity of all the other things that
(13:51):
do seem to be working in the sense that there's
gris there.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
But I'm so empathetic with what you said.
Speaker 6 (13:58):
Uh, doctor Corkadz, because I'm sure Joel can elaborate on this,
that sense of the experience of being in conflict and
all of the things that then make you say this
is all over, you know, exit run for the hills, right,
those are deeply encoded.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
And we think, you know, you.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
Asked the question and Joel answered the question of what
is the promise of the book? And we think there's
a huge promise for the book and we want people
to buy in to read it. But here's here's a
tough sell of it.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
It's a lot of self work.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I really get that which which I saw that utility
and value tremendously right immediately as I was getting into it,
for sure.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Well, I you know, some people of course go into
you know, more of the you know, the the reactive
more shall we say, destructive or violent behavior. You know,
I'm certified in crucial conversations sounds versus violence. But a
lot of us tend to avoid conflicts. So let's just
first talk about why do we avoid conflict?
Speaker 7 (15:05):
Yeah, I mean there is you know, it's from my perspective,
it's very much grounded in the brain and these behavioral
loops that we that we have and how we react
to it. So when we perceive a potential threat and
this comes a lot with conflict, the potential threat of
physical harm that our brain is there to protect us.
(15:27):
Our brain will usually do the first thing to decrease
how bad something feels makes it makes things less bad,
and those behaviors will usually be something along what we
call the five f's, these default reactions of fite, flight, freeze, fawn, investor,
but it can be any any other f probably because
the idea it's just a behavior that we just kind
(15:48):
of reflexively will do that we've probably learned at some
point in our life because it just worked, or we
saw somebody work for somebody else. But oftentimes it works
in the short term, but not in the uh in
the long term. And so just because it feels so
good to kind of make that bad feeling go away,
your brain really weights that heavy heavily, so that way
(16:11):
you're just much more likely to default that the next
time it comes up, which is why you know, you're
much more likely to avoid the conflict or another another
form of avoids is actually the plow through the conflict
like a battering ram. And everybody has their own kind
of specific kind of reflectors or default reacts as depending
on the situation or the person that they're in conflict with.
(16:31):
You know, whether you're in. Getting a distagreement with somebody
at work or with the boss can be very different
than engaging a disagreement with your parents, or your sibling,
or your or your spouse or partner. So it's just
so much in our brain is there to naturally there
to help us, but actually stabotages us from really accomplishing
what we really would benefit us more.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
H mm hmmm.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
So appreciate that insight. Did you want to add anything
to that bub?
Speaker 4 (17:00):
I mean no.
Speaker 8 (17:01):
The one thing I'll just say because which I think
just is a response to the cultural moment of why
everything that Joelle just said is on steroids in this
moment is not only does the.
Speaker 6 (17:14):
Brain get rewarded from that immediate avoidance, but we now
have a whole bunch of tools available to us to
get quadruple rewards. So what do I mean by that?
Think about social media. Think about somebody who says something
awful that you disagree with. You make a comment, They
make a comment back, You make a comment, and then
(17:37):
you know what happens, All of your people start putting
hearts and lights. The hearts and lights are feeding this
pleasure thing, right Like my people come to me and
so no one's having an actual conversation, and yet the
brain is getting these rewards for non engagement, because that's
(17:57):
what it really is.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
It's non engagement.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Mm hm, so so so important. There's so much we
could take and we could uncover an unlayer here, but
let's grab our first break. I'm your host, doctor at
Las Cortez, who went on the air with Robert Bordon,
a senior fellow at Harvard Law School, founder and former
director of the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program, and
founder of the Cambridge Negotiation Institute. We also have with
(18:21):
us doctor Joel Salinas, a behavioral neurologist and clinical scientists
at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine, founder and chief
medical officer at ISAAC Health, and former Harvard Medical School faculty.
We've been talking a bit about where this book came from,
why is it important to cultivate what they call conflict resilience,
Why we avoid conflict. After the break, we're going to
(18:41):
get into their three part system and help you develop
conflict resilience. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose, an inspirational speaker, and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(19:24):
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise
alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I
am dedicated to help them create a world where people
realize their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders
that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we
do business that betters the world. I keep researching and
writing my own books, so my last one came out
is called The Great Revitalization. How activating meaning and purpose
can radically enliven your business and in order to help
(20:16):
leaders understand what today's workforce really wants, and needs to
give their best and want to stay. And then I
offer twenty two best projects to help you be equipped
to provide that for them through your their experience in
your culture. You can find my books on Amazon or
my personal site at lasse quortest dot com if you
are just joining us. My guests are doctor Howel, Sorry
there it is Hoel, Joel Salinez and Robert Bordone, the
(20:39):
authors of Conflict Resilience, Negotiating disagreement without giving up or
giving in a toolkit for coming together in a conflicted world.
You see, doctor Joel, I told you I was going
to help them dispanish. I can't help it and help it, okay,
So let's as much as we can. I really want
to help our listeners and viewers get some idea of
this three part model that you have created. There's been
(20:59):
name which is in dig deep, explore and be brave
and commit and own the conflict. So I don't know
where you want to start, but well, let's do this first.
I do think it helps to make sense to give
our listeners and viewers just a couple of examples of
the conflicts that you showed in your in your book,
because it will help them realize that just how much
conflict really is everywhere. And so we have the personal
(21:22):
example of Katie who wanted to celebrate Thanksgiving but shows
to be back in Boston with her husband and family
and her mothers in Columbus, et cetera. And then we
have the two co founders, Joel and Julius, that have
a business where they grapple with adding a new hire
to the team. So you just kind of situate, kind
of briefly, those two examples of conflicts, so you can
(21:43):
get our listeners and viewers thinking about conflict in their
own lives.
Speaker 6 (21:47):
Yeah, we could each take one of them because one
of them is a reff of a story involving someone
I worked with, but it is a wrath I should say. Okay,
the second one is Joelle's real story.
Speaker 9 (22:00):
He's gonna talk about that one, okay, okay, but yeah, yeah,
But the first one is really situated in family and
a very common thing I think for a lot of
people where we're going to spend the holidays.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
But one of the things that.
Speaker 6 (22:20):
As we kind of work through this, we learn is
it's it seems like a zero sum game of well,
there's only one Thanksgiving and someone has to be someone.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Either the in laws are going to have Katie or
her family of urgent is going to have Katie.
Speaker 6 (22:41):
And part of the work is if you could have
a deeper conversation about the meaning of what the holiday means,
the meaning of what presence means, and some of this
is the interests that both people have here, there's a
way of opening this up first is a way to
have just more connection, which in this case mom and
(23:01):
daughter because they're having not a fight, but a more
authentic conversation about what's hard about this, what's complicated.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
But then also.
Speaker 6 (23:10):
Unpacking an example that we use that part of it
is just how do we find some time for the
whole family to get together and the notion that it
may or may not necessarily need.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
To be on a particular holiday. So family is one
big domain. But then Joelle's example is really situated entirely differently.
Speaker 7 (23:29):
Yeah, it's a work example. So I mean, I think
this is a situation that many of listeners of yours
can relate with. If you are involved in managing teams
or responsible for hiring and bringing other people on when
you have a limited budget, right for people to come
onto the team, we have different priorities, and so the
example that we share in the book is where weise
(23:51):
myself and my colleague and we were trying to decide
whether to hire somebody more senior in a role that
we thought that was really important, and where the tension
was was I really felt that bringing on the senior
person now would really help to speed up all our
progress along, would make us a lot more competitive, would
help to bring a lot more structure and kind of
clear the fog of war when you're starting something new.
(24:15):
Whereas the flip side of that was, you know that
they're kind of expensive, we might have the budget for it,
maybe we should wait a little bit longer. And one
of the things that came up in that conflict was
there was a lot of back and forth on the
merits of the situation, you know, a lot of like
pros and cons, but we weren't really getting anywhere. But
it it was only until we really just had like
(24:36):
a much more frank conversation about kind of the concerns
that we both had around the situation that we were
able to make some progress around there, which was kind
of concerns about not being competitive, but also kind of
existential threats if you run out a budget too quickly.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, so so important to situates and people kind of
continuing that conflict in their own lives. So let's dive
into your your model here, your three part mons role,
starting with name and dig deep. What's help us understand
what that's about. I know there is various chapters that
address that that one, but let's start there.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
I mean, this is the invitation, and maybe that somewhat
counter intuitive invitation of our book, which is that we
imagine people are buying the book because they're thinking about
a conflict with their mother in law, or with their
co founder, or with their boss, or with their teenager.
But the first part is really an exploration of the self.
(25:31):
So when we say name and and uh and dig deep,
what we're really meaning is trying to understand oneself one's
internal conflicts better. We draw a lot on clearly what
some of what Joel talked about in the first part,
which is what is the what's happening chemically and physiologically
(25:54):
in our brains when we find ourselves in conflicts. We
also do a lot of drawing on like internal family
systems and parts work. How do we identify the different
conflicts that we may have internally that if we don't
address them, well, we can't be as effective across the
(26:14):
proverbial conversation or negotiation table because usually what's happening, for example,
just to give it like a live example, in the
avoidance move, there's usually a side of us that feels
like we should say something, and aside of us that
feels like it's not worth it. Well, when we avoid,
maybe to preserve the relationship, we have maybe pleased the
(26:38):
other person, we've also pleased the side of us that
thinks avoiding was a good idea, But you.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Know who we're still stuck with at night. The side
of us is thought we had something to say.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
I know, yeah, yeah, you know, actually thought like I
did have a point there, or I do matter, or
my feelings are relevant. And if we can do that
advance work that doesn't silence the side that says we
should avoid. That's a real side, but that gives voice
and life and legitimacy to the side that says I
(27:13):
have something to say, then we're.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Not going to be prepared for the second part of
what we talk about in our book.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
You know, as I said to you, before we got
on air. One of the things that I really appreciate
about your book and your work that really aligns with
some of the work that I'm doing in general, is
just I see it as you're really empowering people to
own their own their own themselves, their voice, what they want,
and empowering them with a methodology to be able to
(27:43):
step into that conflict in a much more productive, meaningful
way that produces that growth that you're talking about in connection.
And what to me, what that really speaks to is, now,
what you've done is you've elevated that human being in
every way. And how can I argue with that?
Speaker 7 (28:02):
Yeah, I mean for the for the naming step. The
other thing that I'll just add is just, you know,
even just the basics of naming, how you're feeling, putting
a name to that physical emotion or physical experience that
you have already helps to attenuate, to kind of decrease
the intensity of that feeling. There's been some good research
maybe looking at this kind of name entertainment type of
(28:23):
effect where just taking a moment to just put a name,
and you know, the more specific a name you can
give it probably the better it starts to activate more
of these higher order kind of frontal parietal kind of
systems that are really important for deliberative strategic thinking.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yes, yes, And then you know what, as we described
at the beginning of the show, when you guys are
talking about writing the book together, you talk about the
importance of understanding your own conflict tolerance. I mean, some
people think yelling and screaming is just a conversation, you know,
it's a dinner conversation. For me, it'd be like I
would be running for the hills, right, And the two
of you clearly have a different sort of conflict tolerance
(29:02):
as well. And I think that was a really critical
thing that was an AHA for me, was just really
recognizing and I knew and intuitively because of the work
that I do. I do broker conversations between organizations or
departments that are in conflict or have some issues together.
Speaker 7 (29:17):
And I could see that.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
But I thought that that was a really critical thing
to understand and helping people to identify what is my
conflict tolerance level?
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Yeah, well, thank you.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
I mean it's something that has come up for me
so frequently. And one of the things we talk about
in the book, right, the idea of conflict tolerance. That
an interaction that Joel and I may be having that
I might experience as a fun conversation that he experiences
that's affecting the relationship. Yeah, that's one that one domain,
(29:49):
but there's also context in which it might vary. So
I believe we talked in the book about another example
where we were a turns out late on a draft
of our book, No the thing, and and I was
like absolutely threading this conversation. We also had to tell
(30:14):
them when we thought we'd get it to them, and
I think both Joel and I were like, it's going
to be a few months, but I was like, I
was afraid to say that. I was like, well, do
we say it'll be ten days, because that won't be
so bad, even though what happened to days.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
And for Joel it was more like whatever, it's going
to be delay, it'll be fine.
Speaker 6 (30:35):
And part of what was interesting is at least as
I understood and unpacked it, you know, Joel is like
this high and this is true, but he'll probably deny.
He's like a high end neurologist who like works with
these like really complex patients and sometimes has to deliver
pretty bad news. On a regular basis that disappoints people.
(30:58):
And one thing that I'm really at is disappointing people.
Me I was experiencing saying we need three more months
or whatever. We I don't think we asked for three months,
but whatever, it was eight weeks as like a kid
to saying to somebody, you know, you have you have
two months to live. And Joel was like, come on,
(31:19):
So there's there's I mean, he was he was gendler
and kinder than that, right, But but there's our tolerance
or what we experienced as conflict may even vary contextually
again because of the family which we were raids, and
our personality and and and our own experience of like
for me, I think when I disappointed people, it didn't.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Go well for me. M hm.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
And this is why you know, your first step is
of course, really digging deep in as you say, this
is this is some really intense self work that can
that profoundly help individuals, you know, teams, organizations, families, communities, countries, nations. Yeah,
so really you can tell I'm slightly a fan of
your work. Gentlemen, let's grab our last break. I'm your host,
(32:08):
doctor Earles Cortes were in the air with Robert Bordon,
a senior Fellow at Harvard Law School, founder and former
director of the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program, and
founder of the Cambridge Negotiation Institute. We also have doctor
Joel Salinas, a behavioral neurologist and clinician scientist at the
NYU Grossman School of Medicine, founder and Chief medical officer
(32:28):
at ISAAC Health, and former Harvard Medical School faculty. We've
been talking in this particular segment about the first part
of their three part model to start to be able
to develop conflict resilience, that being to name and then
dig deep. After the recreating, you're going to get into
step two and three, which is to explore and commit.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning imfused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(33:25):
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise A.
Lise at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Interesting with us and welcome back to working on Purpose.
I'm your host, doctor release Cortes. I mentioned a last
break that my book came out, the Great Revitalization. What
I did for you is I created a very simple,
three page free organizational assessment. You can pull off my
website Gusto dash now dot com, and that will help
you understand the extent to which your organization is meeting
the needs of today's very discerning workforce and then decide
(34:15):
where you can shore things up. If you are just
now joining us. My guest is doctor Joel Salinas and
Robert Bordon, authors of Conflict Resilience, Negotiating disagreement without giving
up or giving in, a toolkit for coming together in
a conflicted world. So for this last segment here, gentlemen,
let's take it home for our listeners and viewers so
they can get a better understanding of your full model.
(34:36):
We talked about naming our conflict and how we feel
about it. In the last segment, let's dive into exploring
and being brave as we do.
Speaker 7 (34:45):
So, yeah, this explore step it's important, I think we
a little the more fun ones for me at least,
because it involves two key steps, which is deep listening
and effective assertion. And so the goal here is to
really understand kind of what's driving you and the person
(35:05):
kind of across the table from you, or the other
person that you're in dialogue with. Then deep listening at
the core if it is coming at it with a
genuine curiosity about the perspective of the other person, really
to understand where they're coming from, what are the facts
in kind of notions that lead up to the headline
of what they're saying, with the acknowledgment that you're not
(35:26):
necessarily endorsing their point of view by by listening to them.
And Bob can speak to this, but basically those that
do the best listening are actually usually much better at
also responding and effectively asserting themselves, which is that other
half of that exploration, which is then letting your perspective,
(35:49):
your kind of point of view, really giving it a
full throated voice with confidence and clarity in these in
these situations, and being able to really align your brain
and body behind what you're saying so that way you're
actually heard in that conversation. Bob, if there's anything you
want to add to that, now.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
That sounds about right to me. I mean what, it's
easy to say, it's hard to do right. Yes.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
One of the things that I thought was so compelling,
if I have this in the right part of your model, gentlemen,
was that when you really listen so well, and I
know this from the work that I do too, because
I've really literally seen people melt when they're really listened to.
Is you talked about this is probably your side of it,
doctor Joel, Where when people really listen with that kind
of curiosity and that kind of genuineness, what happens is
(36:42):
the other person kind of tends to soften and their
stance and kind of meld into the listener, and they're
more likely to be a little bit more empathetic or
responsive to what the other person has to say because
of the way that they listened.
Speaker 6 (36:55):
Do I have that right?
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Yeah? I know.
Speaker 7 (36:57):
There's been some really great organizational behavior work actually by
doctor guy Ichikov. Looking at listening in teams, it's really
interesting to see that when you bring in tenets of
really great listening, being able to kind of have a
stance that is kind of positive and nonjudgmental towards the
other person, not being distracted and being able to reflect
(37:20):
back and understanding of what the other person is saying.
In teams, it just builds better trust, more cohesion. Teams
are more likely to innovate extreme points of view, tend
to like to so often just as you said, as
you said, and it's just really good for the team
all around. But biologically, this is a research that I've done.
What we see is that people who are are more
(37:43):
likely to have a really good listener are also much
more likely to have a really powerful cognitive reserve, meaning
that their brains tend to function much better than even
kind of their brain looks just by the fact of
having a good listener there. And it's also really powerful
because to be a listener does it really doesn't cost
(38:04):
kind of money, and any of us can be a
really good listener.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
One of the ways in which you know, like brain health,
I would say psychology and law come together is around
this listening piece. And one of the challenges in law school,
right is people think it's all about making arguments, and
yet at the most foundational level going to court. If
(38:31):
you ever go into a court, right when the judge
walks in, the clerk will say, you know, people having
business before the Honorable George A. O'tooles, judge I work
for Judge George A. O'Toole, shall come forth, hearken and
be heard. And why do you go to court?
Speaker 4 (38:54):
It's because you've been in a dispute with somebody.
Speaker 10 (38:57):
And you haven't feel how hurt and so you're like,
you know what, I need to go somewhere where someone
is going to hear me and force you as well.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
Right, So this opportunity to be heard, which is foundational
in your first year of law school, connects to brain health,
connects to relationships, connects to so many different things, and
yet we skip over it, or we say it's not
(39:31):
that important or it takes too much time. But we
do that, I think on our own to the detriment
of our relationships, to the detriment of our families, detriment
of our businesses. So what seems like an efficiency move
to skip over it actually ends up having really high costs.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
No doubt.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
And one of the things that one of the many
things that I appreciate your book is just the sheer
number of examples. You have examples. And there are people
that are talking about, you know, to go on different
sides of wars. I mean talk about, you know, the
criticality of being able to put forth, you know, and
explore a conflict with another human being. And to your
other point, about being able to sit and listen, even
(40:13):
if you crazily oppose that viewpoint, to be able to
actually sit and listen to that in a way that
the other person can speak their side really powerful, So
you know, giving voice, as you say, and then setting
the table. Remind me of what setting the table is
all about.
Speaker 6 (40:31):
Yeah, setting the table is really about how do we
set up a process that's kind of the fancy word
for but the norms of engagement and whether that is
a conversation with you know, an elderly parent about maybe
it's time to think about giving up the driver's license.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Yeah, Now, are you going to sit there and.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
Say, like, let's talk about the rules of engagement with them? Now,
You're probably not gonna do with that. Formally, but you
probably should be awful about when should we do this,
where should we do this, how do we frame it?
That's setting the table in a workplace, maybe a hard
conversation with the boss. You might set up some other
(41:12):
different kinds of process norms. If I'm facilitating a group
that has to make a hard decision, it will look
more formal. But the setting of the table is how
do we create the conditions that maximize the chance that
people can listen and also maximize the chance that people
can and will speak because we need and you know,
(41:35):
we didn't kind of get into the assertion piece, right,
but we need people to actually feel like they are
empowered to speak their experiences, speak to the side that
says I have something to say here. We want to
create the conditions that make it lowest risk for them.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
To actually do that.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
So one of the many reasons I keep hosting the
show after ten years is that because I you know,
this is an intentional way to catalyze my own learning journey,
and I am called into organizations where there's conflict, where
people don't feel like they can speak therapy. Then kind
of it's a fear of it's a culture fear or
a fear of culture, and so they just have the
psychological safety is not present. So the third party comes
(42:17):
in and can help broker that conversation to be able
to get people to say what they really are so
reluctant to say to the person they really need to
say it too, not their colleagues, not somebody in the bathroom, whatever.
So I can tell you I will. You're going to
already help me better serve my clients by what you've
taught me in your book already, and I hope in
my own life. Well, yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah. Is
(42:39):
there anything more you wanted to say about the explore
step before we move on and commit?
Speaker 7 (42:45):
No, I think we can move on to commit.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
Okay, let's talk about what does commit look like?
Speaker 7 (42:49):
Yeah, I mean I can start as off, Bob. And
so one of the key questions that you bring up
with the commit step is really understanding and deciding for
yourself whether to stay and engage in the dialogue or
to walk away. And we provide some helpful tools to
kind of sort through that specific question. But I think
(43:10):
one of there's there's a couple of things I think
are really important to stress up front. One is that
when we talk about conflict resilience, we don't mean to
endure a really abusive or harmful situation. Conflict resilience is
not about putting yourself at risk of harm to know
whether it's physical or mental or emotional. We see this
(43:32):
as tools to help to manage the discomfort that comes
from disagreements with other people. But we don't want it
to be an excuse for you to be uh to
put yourself in a dangerous situation. The The other thing
that comes up often in these conversations is around if
the if you're really struggling in having a conversation or
(43:54):
dialogue with the other side, do I do I still
try to engage And you know, in brief one of
the things that we bring up is just really understanding
for yourself is the other person acting in good faith
or not? And that might not be very clear, but
I think the key thing is is the other person
also wanting to kind of contribute to the relationship, contribute
(44:16):
to the conversation and in ourn and it may just
be a difference in in skills that's taking place.
Speaker 6 (44:25):
One of the big challenges I was I was on
a call earlier today where this commit question gets mucky, right,
this is somebody who uh getting to a lot of specifics,
but it's an ex spouse and there's a lot of
issues around the kids, and.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
There's a way in which.
Speaker 6 (44:51):
Exit isn't fully possible here, right, because there are the kids,
they're minor kids, and both parents.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
Want you to be involved. But there are still certain
decisions around to what level do I want to continue
to engage herd issues.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
Or where do I pull back and say we're just
going to focus on kind of the facts and the logistics.
And so there's kind of different ways in which people
may make decisions around commit right. At the basic negotiation level,
we talk about how do you decide whether to buy
the business or.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
Not or walk away?
Speaker 6 (45:29):
At the relational level, we then say, well, how do
you decide whether let's continue to have this hard set
of conversations about our differences on immigration, or maybe we
just leave it there and then one step back, maybe
the relationship itself is something that needs to end, and
can I walk away from it. We can walk away
(45:50):
from a friendship, we can walk away in a longer term,
perhaps from a work situation.
Speaker 11 (45:57):
Not immediately, but giving some people some tools to understand
how to do that from a conflict resilient approach, which
is different from run for the hills.
Speaker 6 (46:08):
We had to fight, you know, as you mentioned earlier,
but also not saying well, to be contact resilient and
I must endure it all now.
Speaker 7 (46:21):
Chew something to add, Yeah, I mean, I think one
of the things that you might you might have noticed
this has been coming up more in cultures, these concepts
of it's like no contact, which really is a family estrangement,
and I think it's it's there are certain situations where
it makes all the sense to do that. But I
think one of the things we're really advocating for here
(46:42):
is that though there may be some other options beyond
no contact that could still be really useful for the
relationship and really deciding for yourself kind of what what
what is there in One concept that we bring up
in the book is this concept of the Bigger Better
offer or the BBO. And I think it's just a
really important concept to really think about because it really
(47:04):
helps us to really clarify for ourselves as vividly as possible,
what is it that I want to get out of this, Like,
what is the purpose behind this dialogue? This engagement this
hard conversation, because really being clear in that will help
to align your body and your brain towards being really
authentic in that conversation, and also to really tolerate some
(47:28):
of that distress that can come up from really thorny
issues knowing that there's something better kind of at the
other end of that discomfort. And this is the process.
It's not one and done. We really see it a
lot like when you go to the gym to build
the muscles. You know, you don't go into the gym
and start to lift the heaviest weights. You first start
(47:50):
with low rates, get your form right so that way
you can slowly build up to lifting the heavy weights.
And it's similar here. I want people to start with
relatively and more straightforward conflicts. Sometimes it can help to
kind of give yourself a reading around the level of distress.
These six SuDS or subjective units of distress, we want
people to certainly be aware of when they're in the zero, one, two,
(48:12):
three range, but we want people to focus a little
bit more on the stretch zone of that four, five, six.
Anything beyond the six is probably too much of a stress,
a stretch until you can develop those skills to manage it.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Oh my gosh, Iman, there's so much more we could
talk about, and your book is so big and median
full of ways to help. We've come to the end
of the show, though. What would you each like to
leave the listeners with, say, maybe fifteen seconds each?
Speaker 6 (48:41):
I would say, wherever you put yourself on your conflict
handling capability from I hate it. I can't do it
to I'm in the best in the world. You can
get better. The more you are aware of yourself, the
more self reflective you are, more tools you bring to bear,
(49:02):
all of us can grow here.
Speaker 7 (49:04):
Yeah, I'll just add on that. Yeah, this piece of
awareness is so critical. Awareness is more than half the battle.
If there's one thing you take from this book is
just being much more aware about your experience of conflict
and what situations you struggle in which ones you actually
thrive in.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Gentlemen, I'm really really grateful to know both of you too,
have learned from you, to have shared you with my
listeners and viewers across the globe. I really look forward
to staying connected, and I know our listeners and viewers
are going to want to connect with you as well.
So first, let me say thank you for coming on
Working on Purpose, Thanks, thank you to be here. Absolutely,
listeners of views, you were going to want to learn
more about Robert Bordon and doctor Joel Salinez and the
(49:42):
work they do, as well as their book Conflict Resilience,
and one way to start to do that is to
visit their website, Conflict resiliencebook dot com. Last week, if
you missed the live show, you can always catch it
be a recorded podcast. We were on air with Katina
Sawyer and Associate Professor of Management and Organization in the
Elder School or College of Management at the University of Arizona.
(50:03):
She's also the co founder of Worker Being and the
co host of Thriving at the Work podcast. She co
authored a book called Leading for Wellness, How to create
a team culture where everyone thrives, and we talked about
workplace wellness, why it's important, and what's in it for
you as a leader to improve it, and then discuss
several key behaviors leaders can develop to cultivate wellness in
(50:24):
their organizations. It was very, very powerful. Next week will
be on air with Christie Smith, a co author to
the book called Essential How Distributed Teams Generative, AAI and
global shifts are creating a new human powered leadership. It's
going to be a very thoughtful, provoking, and inspiring conversation
about creating leaders and workplaces where people can actually do
(50:44):
their very best work and want to stay. See you then,
remember that work is one of the best adventures and
means of realizing our potential and making the impact we
crave and give us the way to be able to
do business that betters the world. So let's work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortez,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
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Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments
should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for
(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passion and price since February
of twenty fifteen. Great to have you back again this week.
I'm your host, doctor at least Cortes. If we've not
met before and you don't know me, I'm an organizational psychologist,
management consultant, local therapist, speaker and author. My team and
I at gusto Now help companies to enliven and fortify
their operations by building a dynamic, high performance culture and
(01:25):
inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose. And did you
know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers by a
factor of two point twenty five two one. In other words,
inspiration is good for the bottom line. You can learn
more abouts and how we can work together at gustodashnow
dot com or my personal site at least Coortes dot com.
Getting in today's program we have with us today the
(01:45):
authors of Conflict Resilience Negotiating Disagreement without giving up or
giving in a toolkit for coming together in a conflicted world.
Robert Bordon, a Senior Fellow at Harvard Law School, founder
and former director of the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program,
and founder of the Cambridge Negotiation Institute, and also Joel Salinis,
(02:06):
medical doctor, a behavioral neurologist and clinical scientist at the
NYU Grossman School of Medicine, founder and chief medical officer
at ISAAC Health, and former Harvard Medical School faculty slightly
impressive human beings. We'll be talking about why people are
so adverse to conflict and move into such aggressive postures
when faced with it, or when they just completely run
(02:28):
like I like to do, and learn to employ their
three part system to develop what they call conflict resilience
for ourselves. Bob Joins is from Cambridge, Massachusetts, and doctor
Joel joint Is from New York. Welcome, gentlemen to Working
on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Really amazing. As I told you before we got on air,
what you have created here in this book, Conflict Resilience,
It's really really stunning, impressive work. And you know, I
could also hurt somebody with this book. It was so
so dense and full of information. The stories are amazing.
You know your story about your mom, Bob and the
shop store. I mean I could just so relate to that.
I know it just a cringe worthy and true and true.
(03:06):
I got it.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
I got it.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And those things leave an imprint. As we'll talk about
I'm sure. So, well, let's talk about why this book
is just so important. Talk about a timely book, gentleman.
You know, we live in a world of very divisive
conflict today, so let's just talk a bit about why
this book is just so important.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Well, you know, we came We each came at this
book with some different difference as an experience, but then
a real joining about why the timing would be right
for me.
Speaker 6 (03:37):
I think this book, or the idea for the book
and the idea for conflict resilience started almost a decade ago.
I spent twenty one years teaching at HARVD Law School,
and the beginning about a decade ago, I started to
notice a very perceptible shift in the kinds of in
classroom conversations and to make something very complexuch more simple,
(04:01):
it went from interesting and diverse and sometimes conflicted to
pretty dull and boring. And what I knew because I
was on the admissions committee, I knew that we were
still recruiting very interesting people with very different political views,
but that something had shifted, and I did not think
(04:23):
it was primarily the kind of skills. I mean, people
have different levels of skills in this and we can
up their game. We hope our book does upguard their game,
but that what it shifted was that people were less
willing to actually enter into really hard conversations. They tended
(04:44):
to for a whole bunch of reasons that we can
get into later, avoid because it was easier to avoid,
because the cost of the conversation might be very high
in terms of kind of online cancelation or career cancelation.
Because because of social media, people didn't.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Really know how to disagree.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
And so somehow I gave a talk actually in twenty
eighteen where I use this word conflict resilience to try
to distinguish it from conflict resolution. The idea being if
we can't actually sit with the discomfort of our disagreement,
if we can't listen with generosity, and if we can't
represent ourselves in an authentic way but also in a
(05:29):
way that increases the lightly that the other could hear us,
then we could never get to the other things that
I was teaching, which was conflict resolution or negotiation or mediation.
And so that's kind of the world in which I
started to think about this and started to see polarization
and then enter into this this amazing wonderful friendship that
(05:53):
I had with somebody across literally across the river, because
Harvard Law schools on one side of the Charles River
and Harvard Medical School and Mass Generals on the other
side of the river. To enter doctor.
Speaker 7 (06:06):
Salinis, Yeah, I came at this from a different but
related angle. So a behavior neurology just means I work
with people affected by al Zember's disease and related disorders,
and a lot of the research that I've done has
been really focused on brain health and in particular psychosocial
determinants of brain health, So how our social relationships shape
(06:26):
our brain health. And one of the things that I
was noticing in the literature or time was just how
rates of social isolation and loneliness have been steadily increasing
and really trying to understand why why is it that
we've been having this kind of really concerning trend when
things like social isolation and loneliness seem to be really
(06:47):
big health risk factors. It increases risk of mortality gear
than obesity and smoking. And I think in trying to
understand any potential solutions here, I think one of the
things that we came became clear over time was just
there's this real barrier or gap around connection, and specifically
(07:08):
around how we can really navigate conflicts with each other.
With each other, it's almost like we're missing kind of
that kind of like childhood skill set to some degree
that can help us figure out, you know, when we
when we disagree with each other, how we can how
we can get through it. I think one of the
one of the things that's just really clear about connection
(07:30):
in general is that without conflict, there is no connection.
So it's really interesting how we can better better at
navigating that. So I was really fortunate to connect with
Bob who has a very specific skill set on how
do we navigate these things. So together we brought in
both the practical aspects of his field and my field
to try to put together some really useful and usable
(07:50):
tactics here.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I think it's stunning, and I love your collaboration. I
do want to celebrate that. I mean, I've really been
a big fan of law years in general because I
love the way they think you know your traffic and words,
and it's just, you know, it's stunning. And so you know,
brain science, your your world. Doctor Sonius meets you know,
the world of negotiational law and being able to use
language to be able to connect and get a point across.
(08:15):
I just really want to celebrate that you've come together
to do that. How did the two of you come together?
I mean, how did you guys actually meet and decide
to do this.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Yeah, we just.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
Met in the kind of larger, kind of Harvard professional universe.
And it turned out also, it turns out there's a
lot of conflict and big research medical centers, and so
I was actually doing some work at Mass General. You know,
conflict is everywhere, and so we just became friends.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Really, I mean this started more as friendship.
Speaker 6 (08:48):
And I will say I very much credit Joelle on
the idea of writing the book together, because I was
kind of thinking about, you know, is this something, this
book worthy or whatever, and then Joel said kind of
approached me and said, would you want to do something
on this? And my initial instinct was like, how would
(09:10):
that work? But one of the great things about negotiation
in general as a field, and one of my draws
to it is that it's deeply interdisciplinary and it always
has it draws on game theory and behavioral economics and
then social kind of psychology. Uh and so why not
(09:30):
brain signs right, and and and especially in this rapidly
developing field that you know Joel has such expertise in.
And so even though I think my initial reaction was
like a little bit like, well, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
You know, and then and then like the more I
thought about it, I was like, what a what a
brilliant idea. So, Joe, I don't know that that lands
accurate from your.
Speaker 7 (09:53):
Totally it was in was very complimentary. I mean we,
I would say, we engage in a lot of conflict
as we're writing the book in terms of like.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Which you allude to also in the book you throughout, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 7 (10:05):
I mean my my perspective of like medical the medical
world and sciences, I'm always trying to figure, Okay, well,
what's what's behind this, Like what's going on in the brain?
How do we study this? How do we break it
down to its component parts? And Bob has a lot
of really amazing experience, he has a lot of familiar
with with the research done in this area. But I
always kept on coming back in with like the razor
(10:26):
sharp kind of like science leans of like wait, what's
like how do we deconstruct this? How do we replicate this,
What are.
Speaker 6 (10:33):
The funniest things about Like I love what we're doing
these podcasts.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Because well we'll say, oh, we had.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
A lot of conflict, and I was thinking like, oh, yeah,
not that much.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
But that's also in the book, because that's right.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
That's it, this idea of his idea of conflict tolerance
and the way we may people in general, they experience
something as getting to the level of conflict very differently.
And so what for me might have been a very snappy,
fun conversation about a story we might include or not
(11:08):
because I like to tell stories, or maybe Joelle like
riffed on some part of the brain science and I
was like, yeah, this is I'm lost here. I just
thought that'd be fun. You know, at some point in
our relationship we realized that maybe sometimes you actually thought
we were more in a conflict than that was.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
It's interesting, and I think this is so critical to him,
and one of the many reasons I wanted to have
you on is so critical. I'll just quickly share and
then I want I do want to get into the
promise of developing conflict resilience and what it really means
to for relationships the world of work communities in the
world at large. But I can tell you my mother
was married five times for the time she was twenty eight.
(11:48):
I'm from the first marriage when I got married at
thirty five and started having you know, discussions whatever you
want to call them with my then husband. The first
arbam we got into, I literally serving the room to
see which pieces of furniture I'd be taking with me,
because conflict for me means we're leaving, we're moving houses.
That's what it means to me, right, And so that
(12:09):
visceral feeling, you know, that's you know, as I know
you've you've you've taught us in the book doctor Joel.
You know, they got coded right, and neur really coded
for me. So I had to un learned that over time,
and I didn't fully unlearned it, frankly. So let's talk
about just, you know, what could the world and our
relationships and our world of work communities look like when
we learn this stuff.
Speaker 7 (12:31):
Gosh, I mean, I would just say, it's just so
much more vibrant, just so much more creativity, so much
more connection. Bob has this expression that he says that
that I really enjoy just like all of the yeses
don't matter until you get to the first no. And
(12:54):
it's just so true. It's this, you can't really be
truly authentic and without having some conflict in there. And
so if you're if you're really not seeing any conflict,
something is actually not working. And so by Bob and
Bob and I share this, which is like whenever we
hear kind of like new couples talking about how they
never get into a fight, we usually just kind of
(13:16):
like brace ourselves.
Speaker 6 (13:19):
Was it just the first week, That's okay? If you're
in month eight, I'm worried.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, we're not really connecting here, We're not really talking.
Speaker 6 (13:29):
Yeah, someone is afraid or maybe both people are afraid too,
you know, say no or say I disagree, or I
see it differently. And there's just something about that first
working through of the difference that gives you some more
faith in the validity of all the other things that
(13:51):
do seem to be working in the sense that there's
gris there.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
But I'm so empathetic with what you said.
Speaker 6 (13:58):
Uh, doctor Corkadz, because I'm sure Joel can elaborate on this,
that sense of the experience of being in conflict and
all of the things that then make you say this
is all over, you know, exit run for the hills, right,
those are deeply encoded.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
And we think, you know, you.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
Asked the question and Joel answered the question of what
is the promise of the book? And we think there's
a huge promise for the book and we want people
to buy in to read it. But here's here's a
tough sell of it.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
It's a lot of self work.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I really get that which which I saw that utility
and value tremendously right immediately as I was getting into it,
for sure.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Well, I you know, some people of course go into
you know, more of the you know, the the reactive
more shall we say, destructive or violent behavior. You know,
I'm certified in crucial conversations sounds versus violence. But a
lot of us tend to avoid conflicts. So let's just
first talk about why do we avoid conflict?
Speaker 7 (15:05):
Yeah, I mean there is you know, it's from my perspective,
it's very much grounded in the brain and these behavioral
loops that we that we have and how we react
to it. So when we perceive a potential threat and
this comes a lot with conflict, the potential threat of
physical harm that our brain is there to protect us.
(15:27):
Our brain will usually do the first thing to decrease
how bad something feels makes it makes things less bad,
and those behaviors will usually be something along what we
call the five f's, these default reactions of fite, flight, freeze, fawn, investor,
but it can be any any other f probably because
the idea it's just a behavior that we just kind
(15:48):
of reflexively will do that we've probably learned at some
point in our life because it just worked, or we
saw somebody work for somebody else. But oftentimes it works
in the short term, but not in the uh in
the long term. And so just because it feels so
good to kind of make that bad feeling go away,
your brain really weights that heavy heavily, so that way
(16:11):
you're just much more likely to default that the next
time it comes up, which is why you know, you're
much more likely to avoid the conflict or another another
form of avoids is actually the plow through the conflict
like a battering ram. And everybody has their own kind
of specific kind of reflectors or default reacts as depending
on the situation or the person that they're in conflict with.
(16:31):
You know, whether you're in. Getting a distagreement with somebody
at work or with the boss can be very different
than engaging a disagreement with your parents, or your sibling,
or your or your spouse or partner. So it's just
so much in our brain is there to naturally there
to help us, but actually stabotages us from really accomplishing
what we really would benefit us more.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
H mm hmmm.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
So appreciate that insight. Did you want to add anything
to that bub?
Speaker 4 (17:00):
I mean no.
Speaker 8 (17:01):
The one thing I'll just say because which I think
just is a response to the cultural moment of why
everything that Joelle just said is on steroids in this
moment is not only does the.
Speaker 6 (17:14):
Brain get rewarded from that immediate avoidance, but we now
have a whole bunch of tools available to us to
get quadruple rewards. So what do I mean by that?
Think about social media. Think about somebody who says something
awful that you disagree with. You make a comment, They
make a comment back, You make a comment, and then
(17:37):
you know what happens, All of your people start putting
hearts and lights. The hearts and lights are feeding this
pleasure thing, right Like my people come to me and
so no one's having an actual conversation, and yet the
brain is getting these rewards for non engagement, because that's
(17:57):
what it really is.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
It's non engagement.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Mm hm, so so so important. There's so much we
could take and we could uncover an unlayer here, but
let's grab our first break. I'm your host, doctor at
Las Cortez, who went on the air with Robert Bordon,
a senior fellow at Harvard Law School, founder and former
director of the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program, and
founder of the Cambridge Negotiation Institute. We also have with
(18:21):
us doctor Joel Salinas, a behavioral neurologist and clinical scientists
at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine, founder and chief
medical officer at ISAAC Health, and former Harvard Medical School faculty.
We've been talking a bit about where this book came from,
why is it important to cultivate what they call conflict resilience,
Why we avoid conflict. After the break, we're going to
(18:41):
get into their three part system and help you develop
conflict resilience. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose, an inspirational speaker, and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(19:24):
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise
alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I
am dedicated to help them create a world where people
realize their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders
that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we
do business that betters the world. I keep researching and
writing my own books, so my last one came out
is called The Great Revitalization. How activating meaning and purpose
can radically enliven your business and in order to help
(20:16):
leaders understand what today's workforce really wants, and needs to
give their best and want to stay. And then I
offer twenty two best projects to help you be equipped
to provide that for them through your their experience in
your culture. You can find my books on Amazon or
my personal site at lasse quortest dot com if you
are just joining us. My guests are doctor Howel, Sorry
there it is Hoel, Joel Salinez and Robert Bordone, the
(20:39):
authors of Conflict Resilience, Negotiating disagreement without giving up or
giving in a toolkit for coming together in a conflicted world.
You see, doctor Joel, I told you I was going
to help them dispanish. I can't help it and help it, okay,
So let's as much as we can. I really want
to help our listeners and viewers get some idea of
this three part model that you have created. There's been
(20:59):
name which is in dig deep, explore and be brave
and commit and own the conflict. So I don't know
where you want to start, but well, let's do this first.
I do think it helps to make sense to give
our listeners and viewers just a couple of examples of
the conflicts that you showed in your in your book,
because it will help them realize that just how much
conflict really is everywhere. And so we have the personal
(21:22):
example of Katie who wanted to celebrate Thanksgiving but shows
to be back in Boston with her husband and family
and her mothers in Columbus, et cetera. And then we
have the two co founders, Joel and Julius, that have
a business where they grapple with adding a new hire
to the team. So you just kind of situate, kind
of briefly, those two examples of conflicts, so you can
(21:43):
get our listeners and viewers thinking about conflict in their
own lives.
Speaker 6 (21:47):
Yeah, we could each take one of them because one
of them is a reff of a story involving someone
I worked with, but it is a wrath I should say. Okay,
the second one is Joelle's real story.
Speaker 9 (22:00):
He's gonna talk about that one, okay, okay, but yeah, yeah,
But the first one is really situated in family and
a very common thing I think for a lot of
people where we're going to spend the holidays.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
But one of the things that.
Speaker 6 (22:20):
As we kind of work through this, we learn is
it's it seems like a zero sum game of well,
there's only one Thanksgiving and someone has to be someone.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Either the in laws are going to have Katie or
her family of urgent is going to have Katie.
Speaker 6 (22:41):
And part of the work is if you could have
a deeper conversation about the meaning of what the holiday means,
the meaning of what presence means, and some of this
is the interests that both people have here, there's a
way of opening this up first is a way to
have just more connection, which in this case mom and
(23:01):
daughter because they're having not a fight, but a more
authentic conversation about what's hard about this, what's complicated.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
But then also.
Speaker 6 (23:10):
Unpacking an example that we use that part of it
is just how do we find some time for the
whole family to get together and the notion that it
may or may not necessarily need.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
To be on a particular holiday. So family is one
big domain. But then Joelle's example is really situated entirely differently.
Speaker 7 (23:29):
Yeah, it's a work example. So I mean, I think
this is a situation that many of listeners of yours
can relate with. If you are involved in managing teams
or responsible for hiring and bringing other people on when
you have a limited budget, right for people to come
onto the team, we have different priorities, and so the
example that we share in the book is where weise
(23:51):
myself and my colleague and we were trying to decide
whether to hire somebody more senior in a role that
we thought that was really important, and where the tension
was was I really felt that bringing on the senior
person now would really help to speed up all our
progress along, would make us a lot more competitive, would
help to bring a lot more structure and kind of
clear the fog of war when you're starting something new.
(24:15):
Whereas the flip side of that was, you know that
they're kind of expensive, we might have the budget for it,
maybe we should wait a little bit longer. And one
of the things that came up in that conflict was
there was a lot of back and forth on the
merits of the situation, you know, a lot of like
pros and cons, but we weren't really getting anywhere. But
it it was only until we really just had like
(24:36):
a much more frank conversation about kind of the concerns
that we both had around the situation that we were
able to make some progress around there, which was kind
of concerns about not being competitive, but also kind of
existential threats if you run out a budget too quickly.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, so so important to situates and people kind of
continuing that conflict in their own lives. So let's dive
into your your model here, your three part mons role,
starting with name and dig deep. What's help us understand
what that's about. I know there is various chapters that
address that that one, but let's start there.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
I mean, this is the invitation, and maybe that somewhat
counter intuitive invitation of our book, which is that we
imagine people are buying the book because they're thinking about
a conflict with their mother in law, or with their
co founder, or with their boss, or with their teenager.
But the first part is really an exploration of the self.
(25:31):
So when we say name and and uh and dig deep,
what we're really meaning is trying to understand oneself one's
internal conflicts better. We draw a lot on clearly what
some of what Joel talked about in the first part,
which is what is the what's happening chemically and physiologically
(25:54):
in our brains when we find ourselves in conflicts. We
also do a lot of drawing on like internal family
systems and parts work. How do we identify the different
conflicts that we may have internally that if we don't
address them, well, we can't be as effective across the
(26:14):
proverbial conversation or negotiation table because usually what's happening, for example,
just to give it like a live example, in the
avoidance move, there's usually a side of us that feels
like we should say something, and aside of us that
feels like it's not worth it. Well, when we avoid,
maybe to preserve the relationship, we have maybe pleased the
(26:38):
other person, we've also pleased the side of us that
thinks avoiding was a good idea, But you.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Know who we're still stuck with at night. The side
of us is thought we had something to say.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
I know, yeah, yeah, you know, actually thought like I
did have a point there, or I do matter, or
my feelings are relevant. And if we can do that
advance work that doesn't silence the side that says we
should avoid. That's a real side, but that gives voice
and life and legitimacy to the side that says I
(27:13):
have something to say, then we're.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Not going to be prepared for the second part of
what we talk about in our book.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
You know, as I said to you, before we got
on air. One of the things that I really appreciate
about your book and your work that really aligns with
some of the work that I'm doing in general, is
just I see it as you're really empowering people to
own their own their own themselves, their voice, what they want,
and empowering them with a methodology to be able to
(27:43):
step into that conflict in a much more productive, meaningful
way that produces that growth that you're talking about in connection.
And what to me, what that really speaks to is, now,
what you've done is you've elevated that human being in
every way. And how can I argue with that?
Speaker 7 (28:02):
Yeah, I mean for the for the naming step. The
other thing that I'll just add is just, you know,
even just the basics of naming, how you're feeling, putting
a name to that physical emotion or physical experience that
you have already helps to attenuate, to kind of decrease
the intensity of that feeling. There's been some good research
maybe looking at this kind of name entertainment type of
(28:23):
effect where just taking a moment to just put a name,
and you know, the more specific a name you can
give it probably the better it starts to activate more
of these higher order kind of frontal parietal kind of
systems that are really important for deliberative strategic thinking.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yes, yes, And then you know what, as we described
at the beginning of the show, when you guys are
talking about writing the book together, you talk about the
importance of understanding your own conflict tolerance. I mean, some
people think yelling and screaming is just a conversation, you know,
it's a dinner conversation. For me, it'd be like I
would be running for the hills, right, And the two
of you clearly have a different sort of conflict tolerance
(29:02):
as well. And I think that was a really critical
thing that was an AHA for me, was just really
recognizing and I knew and intuitively because of the work
that I do. I do broker conversations between organizations or
departments that are in conflict or have some issues together.
Speaker 7 (29:17):
And I could see that.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
But I thought that that was a really critical thing
to understand and helping people to identify what is my
conflict tolerance level?
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Yeah, well, thank you.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
I mean it's something that has come up for me
so frequently. And one of the things we talk about
in the book, right, the idea of conflict tolerance. That
an interaction that Joel and I may be having that
I might experience as a fun conversation that he experiences
that's affecting the relationship. Yeah, that's one that one domain,
(29:49):
but there's also context in which it might vary. So
I believe we talked in the book about another example
where we were a turns out late on a draft
of our book, No the thing, and and I was
like absolutely threading this conversation. We also had to tell
(30:14):
them when we thought we'd get it to them, and
I think both Joel and I were like, it's going
to be a few months, but I was like, I
was afraid to say that. I was like, well, do
we say it'll be ten days, because that won't be
so bad, even though what happened to days.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
And for Joel it was more like whatever, it's going
to be delay, it'll be fine.
Speaker 6 (30:35):
And part of what was interesting is at least as
I understood and unpacked it, you know, Joel is like
this high and this is true, but he'll probably deny.
He's like a high end neurologist who like works with
these like really complex patients and sometimes has to deliver
pretty bad news. On a regular basis that disappoints people.
(30:58):
And one thing that I'm really at is disappointing people.
Me I was experiencing saying we need three more months
or whatever. We I don't think we asked for three months,
but whatever, it was eight weeks as like a kid
to saying to somebody, you know, you have you have
two months to live. And Joel was like, come on,
(31:19):
So there's there's I mean, he was he was gendler
and kinder than that, right, But but there's our tolerance
or what we experienced as conflict may even vary contextually
again because of the family which we were raids, and
our personality and and and our own experience of like
for me, I think when I disappointed people, it didn't.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Go well for me. M hm.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
And this is why you know, your first step is
of course, really digging deep in as you say, this
is this is some really intense self work that can
that profoundly help individuals, you know, teams, organizations, families, communities, countries, nations. Yeah,
so really you can tell I'm slightly a fan of
your work. Gentlemen, let's grab our last break. I'm your host,
(32:08):
doctor Earles Cortes were in the air with Robert Bordon,
a senior Fellow at Harvard Law School, founder and former
director of the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program, and
founder of the Cambridge Negotiation Institute. We also have doctor
Joel Salinas, a behavioral neurologist and clinician scientist at the
NYU Grossman School of Medicine, founder and Chief medical officer
(32:28):
at ISAAC Health, and former Harvard Medical School faculty. We've
been talking in this particular segment about the first part
of their three part model to start to be able
to develop conflict resilience, that being to name and then
dig deep. After the recreating, you're going to get into
step two and three, which is to explore and commit.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning imfused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(33:25):
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise A.
Lise at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Interesting with us and welcome back to working on Purpose.
I'm your host, doctor release Cortes. I mentioned a last
break that my book came out, the Great Revitalization. What
I did for you is I created a very simple,
three page free organizational assessment. You can pull off my
website Gusto dash now dot com, and that will help
you understand the extent to which your organization is meeting
the needs of today's very discerning workforce and then decide
(34:15):
where you can shore things up. If you are just
now joining us. My guest is doctor Joel Salinas and
Robert Bordon, authors of Conflict Resilience, Negotiating disagreement without giving
up or giving in, a toolkit for coming together in
a conflicted world. So for this last segment here, gentlemen,
let's take it home for our listeners and viewers so
they can get a better understanding of your full model.
(34:36):
We talked about naming our conflict and how we feel
about it. In the last segment, let's dive into exploring
and being brave as we do.
Speaker 7 (34:45):
So, yeah, this explore step it's important, I think we
a little the more fun ones for me at least,
because it involves two key steps, which is deep listening
and effective assertion. And so the goal here is to
really understand kind of what's driving you and the person
(35:05):
kind of across the table from you, or the other
person that you're in dialogue with. Then deep listening at
the core if it is coming at it with a
genuine curiosity about the perspective of the other person, really
to understand where they're coming from, what are the facts
in kind of notions that lead up to the headline
of what they're saying, with the acknowledgment that you're not
(35:26):
necessarily endorsing their point of view by by listening to them.
And Bob can speak to this, but basically those that
do the best listening are actually usually much better at
also responding and effectively asserting themselves, which is that other
half of that exploration, which is then letting your perspective,
(35:49):
your kind of point of view, really giving it a
full throated voice with confidence and clarity in these in
these situations, and being able to really align your brain
and body behind what you're saying so that way you're
actually heard in that conversation. Bob, if there's anything you
want to add to that, now.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
That sounds about right to me. I mean what, it's
easy to say, it's hard to do right. Yes.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
One of the things that I thought was so compelling,
if I have this in the right part of your model, gentlemen,
was that when you really listen so well, and I
know this from the work that I do too, because
I've really literally seen people melt when they're really listened to.
Is you talked about this is probably your side of it,
doctor Joel, Where when people really listen with that kind
of curiosity and that kind of genuineness, what happens is
(36:42):
the other person kind of tends to soften and their
stance and kind of meld into the listener, and they're
more likely to be a little bit more empathetic or
responsive to what the other person has to say because
of the way that they listened.
Speaker 6 (36:55):
Do I have that right?
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Yeah? I know.
Speaker 7 (36:57):
There's been some really great organizational behavior work actually by
doctor guy Ichikov. Looking at listening in teams, it's really
interesting to see that when you bring in tenets of
really great listening, being able to kind of have a
stance that is kind of positive and nonjudgmental towards the
other person, not being distracted and being able to reflect
(37:20):
back and understanding of what the other person is saying.
In teams, it just builds better trust, more cohesion. Teams
are more likely to innovate extreme points of view, tend
to like to so often just as you said, as
you said, and it's just really good for the team
all around. But biologically, this is a research that I've done.
What we see is that people who are are more
(37:43):
likely to have a really good listener are also much
more likely to have a really powerful cognitive reserve, meaning
that their brains tend to function much better than even
kind of their brain looks just by the fact of
having a good listener there. And it's also really powerful
because to be a listener does it really doesn't cost
(38:04):
kind of money, and any of us can be a
really good listener.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
One of the ways in which you know, like brain health,
I would say psychology and law come together is around
this listening piece. And one of the challenges in law school,
right is people think it's all about making arguments, and
yet at the most foundational level going to court. If
(38:31):
you ever go into a court, right when the judge
walks in, the clerk will say, you know, people having
business before the Honorable George A. O'tooles, judge I work
for Judge George A. O'Toole, shall come forth, hearken and
be heard. And why do you go to court?
Speaker 4 (38:54):
It's because you've been in a dispute with somebody.
Speaker 10 (38:57):
And you haven't feel how hurt and so you're like,
you know what, I need to go somewhere where someone
is going to hear me and force you as well.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
Right, So this opportunity to be heard, which is foundational
in your first year of law school, connects to brain health,
connects to relationships, connects to so many different things, and
yet we skip over it, or we say it's not
(39:31):
that important or it takes too much time. But we
do that, I think on our own to the detriment
of our relationships, to the detriment of our families, detriment
of our businesses. So what seems like an efficiency move
to skip over it actually ends up having really high costs.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
No doubt.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
And one of the things that one of the many
things that I appreciate your book is just the sheer
number of examples. You have examples. And there are people
that are talking about, you know, to go on different
sides of wars. I mean talk about, you know, the
criticality of being able to put forth, you know, and
explore a conflict with another human being. And to your
other point, about being able to sit and listen, even
(40:13):
if you crazily oppose that viewpoint, to be able to
actually sit and listen to that in a way that
the other person can speak their side really powerful, So
you know, giving voice, as you say, and then setting
the table. Remind me of what setting the table is
all about.
Speaker 6 (40:31):
Yeah, setting the table is really about how do we
set up a process that's kind of the fancy word
for but the norms of engagement and whether that is
a conversation with you know, an elderly parent about maybe
it's time to think about giving up the driver's license.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Yeah, Now, are you going to sit there and.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
Say, like, let's talk about the rules of engagement with them? Now,
You're probably not gonna do with that. Formally, but you
probably should be awful about when should we do this,
where should we do this, how do we frame it?
That's setting the table in a workplace, maybe a hard
conversation with the boss. You might set up some other
(41:12):
different kinds of process norms. If I'm facilitating a group
that has to make a hard decision, it will look
more formal. But the setting of the table is how
do we create the conditions that maximize the chance that
people can listen and also maximize the chance that people
can and will speak because we need and you know,
(41:35):
we didn't kind of get into the assertion piece, right,
but we need people to actually feel like they are
empowered to speak their experiences, speak to the side that
says I have something to say here. We want to
create the conditions that make it lowest risk for them.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
To actually do that.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
So one of the many reasons I keep hosting the
show after ten years is that because I you know,
this is an intentional way to catalyze my own learning journey,
and I am called into organizations where there's conflict, where
people don't feel like they can speak therapy. Then kind
of it's a fear of it's a culture fear or
a fear of culture, and so they just have the
psychological safety is not present. So the third party comes
(42:17):
in and can help broker that conversation to be able
to get people to say what they really are so
reluctant to say to the person they really need to
say it too, not their colleagues, not somebody in the bathroom, whatever.
So I can tell you I will. You're going to
already help me better serve my clients by what you've
taught me in your book already, and I hope in
my own life. Well, yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah. Is
(42:39):
there anything more you wanted to say about the explore
step before we move on and commit?
Speaker 7 (42:45):
No, I think we can move on to commit.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
Okay, let's talk about what does commit look like?
Speaker 7 (42:49):
Yeah, I mean I can start as off, Bob. And
so one of the key questions that you bring up
with the commit step is really understanding and deciding for
yourself whether to stay and engage in the dialogue or
to walk away. And we provide some helpful tools to
kind of sort through that specific question. But I think
(43:10):
one of there's there's a couple of things I think
are really important to stress up front. One is that
when we talk about conflict resilience, we don't mean to
endure a really abusive or harmful situation. Conflict resilience is
not about putting yourself at risk of harm to know
whether it's physical or mental or emotional. We see this
(43:32):
as tools to help to manage the discomfort that comes
from disagreements with other people. But we don't want it
to be an excuse for you to be uh to
put yourself in a dangerous situation. The The other thing
that comes up often in these conversations is around if
the if you're really struggling in having a conversation or
(43:54):
dialogue with the other side, do I do I still
try to engage And you know, in brief one of
the things that we bring up is just really understanding
for yourself is the other person acting in good faith
or not? And that might not be very clear, but
I think the key thing is is the other person
also wanting to kind of contribute to the relationship, contribute
(44:16):
to the conversation and in ourn and it may just
be a difference in in skills that's taking place.
Speaker 6 (44:25):
One of the big challenges I was I was on
a call earlier today where this commit question gets mucky, right,
this is somebody who uh getting to a lot of specifics,
but it's an ex spouse and there's a lot of
issues around the kids, and.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
There's a way in which.
Speaker 6 (44:51):
Exit isn't fully possible here, right, because there are the kids,
they're minor kids, and both parents.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
Want you to be involved. But there are still certain
decisions around to what level do I want to continue
to engage herd issues.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
Or where do I pull back and say we're just
going to focus on kind of the facts and the logistics.
And so there's kind of different ways in which people
may make decisions around commit right. At the basic negotiation level,
we talk about how do you decide whether to buy
the business or.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
Not or walk away?
Speaker 6 (45:29):
At the relational level, we then say, well, how do
you decide whether let's continue to have this hard set
of conversations about our differences on immigration, or maybe we
just leave it there and then one step back, maybe
the relationship itself is something that needs to end, and
can I walk away from it. We can walk away
(45:50):
from a friendship, we can walk away in a longer term,
perhaps from a work situation.
Speaker 11 (45:57):
Not immediately, but giving some people some tools to understand
how to do that from a conflict resilient approach, which
is different from run for the hills.
Speaker 6 (46:08):
We had to fight, you know, as you mentioned earlier,
but also not saying well, to be contact resilient and
I must endure it all now.
Speaker 7 (46:21):
Chew something to add, Yeah, I mean, I think one
of the things that you might you might have noticed
this has been coming up more in cultures, these concepts
of it's like no contact, which really is a family estrangement,
and I think it's it's there are certain situations where
it makes all the sense to do that. But I
think one of the things we're really advocating for here
(46:42):
is that though there may be some other options beyond
no contact that could still be really useful for the
relationship and really deciding for yourself kind of what what
what is there in One concept that we bring up
in the book is this concept of the Bigger Better
offer or the BBO. And I think it's just a
really important concept to really think about because it really
(47:04):
helps us to really clarify for ourselves as vividly as possible,
what is it that I want to get out of this, Like,
what is the purpose behind this dialogue? This engagement this
hard conversation, because really being clear in that will help
to align your body and your brain towards being really
authentic in that conversation, and also to really tolerate some
(47:28):
of that distress that can come up from really thorny
issues knowing that there's something better kind of at the
other end of that discomfort. And this is the process.
It's not one and done. We really see it a
lot like when you go to the gym to build
the muscles. You know, you don't go into the gym
and start to lift the heaviest weights. You first start
(47:50):
with low rates, get your form right so that way
you can slowly build up to lifting the heavy weights.
And it's similar here. I want people to start with
relatively and more straightforward conflicts. Sometimes it can help to
kind of give yourself a reading around the level of distress.
These six SuDS or subjective units of distress, we want
people to certainly be aware of when they're in the zero, one, two,
(48:12):
three range, but we want people to focus a little
bit more on the stretch zone of that four, five, six.
Anything beyond the six is probably too much of a stress,
a stretch until you can develop those skills to manage it.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Oh my gosh, Iman, there's so much more we could
talk about, and your book is so big and median
full of ways to help. We've come to the end
of the show, though. What would you each like to
leave the listeners with, say, maybe fifteen seconds each?
Speaker 6 (48:41):
I would say, wherever you put yourself on your conflict
handling capability from I hate it. I can't do it
to I'm in the best in the world. You can
get better. The more you are aware of yourself, the
more self reflective you are, more tools you bring to bear,
(49:02):
all of us can grow here.
Speaker 7 (49:04):
Yeah, I'll just add on that. Yeah, this piece of
awareness is so critical. Awareness is more than half the battle.
If there's one thing you take from this book is
just being much more aware about your experience of conflict
and what situations you struggle in which ones you actually
thrive in.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Gentlemen, I'm really really grateful to know both of you too,
have learned from you, to have shared you with my
listeners and viewers across the globe. I really look forward
to staying connected, and I know our listeners and viewers
are going to want to connect with you as well.
So first, let me say thank you for coming on
Working on Purpose, Thanks, thank you to be here. Absolutely,
listeners of views, you were going to want to learn
more about Robert Bordon and doctor Joel Salinez and the
(49:42):
work they do, as well as their book Conflict Resilience,
and one way to start to do that is to
visit their website, Conflict resiliencebook dot com. Last week, if
you missed the live show, you can always catch it
be a recorded podcast. We were on air with Katina
Sawyer and Associate Professor of Management and Organization in the
Elder School or College of Management at the University of Arizona.
(50:03):
She's also the co founder of Worker Being and the
co host of Thriving at the Work podcast. She co
authored a book called Leading for Wellness, How to create
a team culture where everyone thrives, and we talked about
workplace wellness, why it's important, and what's in it for
you as a leader to improve it, and then discuss
several key behaviors leaders can develop to cultivate wellness in
(50:24):
their organizations. It was very, very powerful. Next week will
be on air with Christie Smith, a co author to
the book called Essential How Distributed Teams Generative, AAI and
global shifts are creating a new human powered leadership. It's
going to be a very thoughtful, provoking, and inspiring conversation
about creating leaders and workplaces where people can actually do
(50:44):
their very best work and want to stay. See you then,
remember that work is one of the best adventures and
means of realizing our potential and making the impact we
crave and give us the way to be able to
do business that betters the world. So let's work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortez,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
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