September 30, 2025 • 50 mins
True leadership is not about power or hierarchy—it’s about inspiring others to step into their best selves. In this conversation, Tamra Ryan, longtime CEO and social enterprise leader, reveals 16 timeless lessons on building trust, courage, and shared purpose. We explore how leaders can nurture authentic followership and spark collective achievement that exceeds expectations.
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Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortez.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning again this week. Great
to have you. I'm your host, doctor A Release Cortes.
If you don't know me and we haven't met before,
I'm a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapists,
speaker and author. My team and I at Gusto Now
help companies enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,
(01:27):
high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nurturing managers activated by
meaning and purpose. And did you know that inspired employees
outperform their satisfied peers by a factor of two point
twenty five to one. In other words, inspiration is good
for the bottom line. You can learn more about us
at and how we can work together at gustodashnow dot
com or my personal site at Lascortes dot com. Getting
(01:48):
into today's program, we have with us back with us.
This is our second time. Tamra Ryan a nationally recognized speaker, author,
and leadership expert who is redefining what it means to
lead with purpose and compassion. She served as CEO of
Women's Being Project from two thousand and three to twenty
twenty five. It's a social enterprise transforming lives through transitional employment.
(02:10):
And now she now dedicates herself to empowering others to
become leaders worth following. She's the author of two books,
one of which we'll be talking about today, Followship Sixteen
Lessons to Become a Leader Worth Following. She joins us
today from Denver, Temra. Welcome back to Working on Purpose.
It's great to see you. It is. Indeed, look at
this beautiful thing that you put out into the world.
(02:31):
It's just gorgeous. And I really, as I told you
in our exchange, is align with everything that you said
in that book, and so much of it is really
what I have been trying to teach leaders too in
my practice. So I'm excited to get into this conversation
with you. But let's first open for our listeners and
viewers who don't know you the way that I do.
(02:51):
Share a bit about where this book came from and
some of the things you're drawing from from your previous experience.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Well, it was I think any book is sort of
a labor of love.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Definitely, most definitely.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
You definitely don't write a book because it's easy to do,
and you know, as I was as I led an organization,
a mission based organization for twenty two years. I know
that I changed and I became, I believe, a better
person and a better leader. And while I was learning
(03:26):
the things that I think made me those things, I
watched as so many people were either disappointed by the
leaders they were working with. As a society, we can
see in the news all the time poor models of leadership,
and then there were also some models where I'd look
(03:48):
at people's success and say, Okay, what allowed them to
become so visionary and to change a culture or to
change an industry. So I really began thinking about as
I interacted with the people I worked with, what really
inspired them to want to be there with me and
(04:09):
what conversely turned them off. And so I really felt
like there was an opportunity to write about the things
that I learned during my experience as CEO of Women's
Being Project in a way that might save a lot
of other people time, Because I think the challenge of
(04:30):
leadership is that you don't go into the job thinking
knowing exactly how to do it. It put your first
leadership role and I can't tell you how many people
just this week I was in a CEO group, and
to a person, everyone around the room talked about the
amount of time it took them, and this was in
(04:51):
years before they actually really became the CEO. And what
they meant by that was I had to grow into
the role of learning how to lead, and I didn't
know how to do it at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And yet none of.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Us are going to say that when we first are hired,
because you've just been hired to lead. So the motivation
of the book really was to say, here's an opportunity
to save you some time and really get to what
I think people are looking for today in their leaders.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
You definitely make a really strong case for this lack
of trust that people have in their leaders, and that
you make a case for doing leadership differently, and I
really this is what I really want to embrace. You
say it's time to turn the focus away from what
leaders want to give and toward what followers are seeking
from their leaders, what entices people and enlist them to
(05:46):
join the leader and accomplishing great things. I call this
new way of leading followship, and I think.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
That the reason I call it followship is that instead
of thinking about how do I lead, it is instead
it is looking at it what inspires somebody to want
to be there with me. I often joke that if
you're a leader and you turn around and look behind
you and no one's there, you're actually not leading. And
(06:14):
I think too often, almost maybe by definition, leadership is
a very singular role. When you're leading a company, it's
very lonely, and often we as a society put the
leader on the pedestal, especially very public facing leadership roles,
(06:34):
and as a result, I think that the risk is
leaders begin to think it's about them. And what I
often said leading a very prominent social enterprise, that people
made the decision whether or not to support our organization
based on meeting me. But the moment I began to
think it was about me, we were all in trouble.
(06:55):
It was never about me. It was a role that
I had in a responsibility. I had to inspire people
to want to join us on our on our quest
to change the world. And the same thing goes for
the people who are working with you. Your job as
a leader is to inspire people to want to be
with you to accomplish great things, and to accomplish a
(07:17):
mission and the purpose of the organization and I think
this is true whether or not you're leading a mission
based organization or a for profit organization.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I completely agree a couple of things. I really want
to call it. There's so many specific things about your
work and your book that I really want a position
for listeners and viewers. So first I want to situate
and listeners and viewers listen to this carefully. If you're
a leader, I really want you to listen to this
and hear this you say in your book camera. Many
leaders are caught in the gap between where they currently
sit because of their training background and role models and
(07:52):
where their followers expect them to be. And that's back
on thinking that you know there it's about them, but
I think it's important to call it that they are
stuck in that gap. And as soon as they can
they realized that they are stuck in the gap, they
can do something about that.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yes, And I think that everything around them is reinforcing
where they're stuck and not and not giving them a
path or even insisting they find a path to be different.
So I think, you know, you think about our society
(08:29):
and how we view leaders and how we treat leaders,
and how we have in some instances sort of a
heroship worship of leaders, and yet we're very at the
same time often very turned off by that by when
someone behaves as though they deserve it, and so we're
(08:52):
not giving anyone the opportunity to see the path to
maybe it's a more enlightened leadership of recognizing it's not
about them. And that's I think why we're stuck is
because we put leaders on a pedestal, and then we
resent them for being on that pedestal.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yes, and the other thing that I'm so present to
and I've written about it a little bit in my
last book, The Great Vitalization, but you speak to it
quite quite eloquently in your book. You say that leaders
are learning that the hard way, that the relationship between
them and their follower has been democratized. Followers now understand
their power to choose whether or not to stay with
the leader, and I think that's really important. I think
(09:33):
for a lot of leaders, especially some of these really
really high level CEOs of large companies, I think this
is really really devastating for them.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
I think that is true, it's devastating for them, or
they blame it on the generational difference.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Oh, definitely, No, question.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
I've been in so many conversations where the CEO will
lament uh uh, you know kids these days kind of
conversation where like what's going on with this next generation
that's coming up? And what I think is that's that's
a representation of this gap, is that you know, I
(10:17):
do think I I came up in my career at
a time where you you showed up, you just did
what the leader said, you didn't question it, and there
was it was maybe a lot more fear based development
as as a professional. And now so now we have
(10:39):
leaders who came up during that time who are looking
to their their younger employees and saying, I don't understand
why you think you should have a voice here, right?
And and so in the difference I think when when
I talk about followship is recognizing I do have a voice,
(11:01):
because if you want them to come with you, you
need to hear what they have to say and gosh,
they might actually have something great to say. But that
you as a collective will be much more powerful together.
That this isn't about how strong you are as a leader,
as a soul leader, This is about your ability to
(11:23):
again inspire people to want to be there with you,
and I think I talk about this in the book. Also,
that doesn't mean that you aren't ultimately the decision maker.
It means that you are. You are providing a platform
for people to have voice and ultimately knowing that you're
(11:44):
making a decision. And so I talk about how to
communicate those decisions, how to communicate to the followers what
the process is going to be, how to understand why
people have resistance because people don't like change. And usually
(12:05):
leaders like change because they're the ones leading the change. Generally,
people don't like change because it's being done to them, right,
So I talked about those kinds of things in the past.
I think you just as a leader, you implement a change,
and you sort of said, you know, suck it up
and come with me, or don't. And I'm really trying
(12:26):
to make the case that we will. We will be
better together.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Yes, completely agree. A couple of things that came up
from that camera. First, I attended a dinner a few
weeks ago and there was a gentleman there who had
mentioned he offered that he was seventy six and had
worked all over the world, and he was talking about
today's workforce, and he said he said, these new younger
(12:49):
people need to learn how to just be quiet, and
I said, excuse me, sir, with all due respect, I
completely disagree with you. And we went into a conversation
about that, and it was just so it's kind of
along the lines of we we're talking about here. And
then last night I attended a conscious capitalism event here
in Dallas and we got into a conversation about the
speaker was saying that I am a voice for the voiceless,
(13:12):
and someone else got up into the crowd and said,
I must, I must be controversial and tell you that
I used to say that same thing. And she said, now,
I recognize everyone has a voice, it's just that they
haven't been able to use it so frequently. And now
I'm about enabling more people to use that voice, not
to speak on behalf of others for their voice. And
(13:33):
so I think there's I think you've really hit on
something important here. I think that this exasperation is an
expression of not understanding that that this that we have
a we are a bigger, fuller workforce of multiple voices
and generations, and yes, we are better together. So I
think you've really articulated that really well well.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Thanks, and and I think also what gets what has
been lost is that you can and then lists people
to come with you if they understand where they're going
and they buy into the vision. And so there is
a whole section about this idea that your responsibility as
a leader is to create a vision that those who
(14:17):
are around you contribute to, but to create a vision
of where you're going and how much better the world
is going to be when you accomplish that vision and
then enless people to come with you. And I think
too often what happens is the leader does not give
a lot of thought to that vision, and potentially that
(14:40):
there is no vision. It's just about shareholder value. And
so everybody's marching forward, or the leader is hoping everyone
marches forward to creating this shareholder value that potentially nobody
but the leader has any interest in helping to create.
I think that that's that's also what gets lost, is
(15:02):
that this isn't about a bunch of automatons who are
going to follow this leader. It's about people being bought
into where you're.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Headed, no question, no question. One of things that we
learned last night, the speaker had been a CEO of
various companies, and you know, and he's he said that
for most CEOs, the contract is that they are there
to serve the company, and they're absolutely set there the
shareholder that's in their contract. So of course everything that
(15:33):
they're compensated and incentivized to do has to do serving
that shareholder. And of course there are all these other
stakeholders that that are interested in that effort as well,
and that's a major disconnect. And that came up with
around the conversation of what did the speaker think about
us moving from a quarterly earnings to a biennial quarterly
(15:56):
or earnings set up? And he said, it's not going
to solve the problem, might even make it worse anyway.
It's I think that's a really important thing to understand too.
In the mix of all this year, there's some really
divided interest here at work that I think need to
be addressed at some point.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
And I think both divided interest and divide a perspective.
I talked my book about a meeting where I was
with a group of women CEOs and that conversation, yes,
and and the what was so interesting was and I
so we were going around the table and giving this
(16:32):
one CEO our advice or input about her concern that
nobody seemed to work as hard as she did as
she was building her company, and she didn't understand why
they didn't put in the hours, et cetera. And I
just was really struck by how obsessed she it felt
(16:52):
she was with people but being in their seats, right.
And so when it came to my turn, I said,
you know, I I guess it depends on what you want.
Do you want to be the manager of these people
or do you want to lead these people? And it
seems to me, as the leader of the company, you
want to lead them. And so if they understand where
(17:14):
you're headed and how they benefit. You know, it was
a small company, so they would benefit from the success
of the company. And you have clearly articulated where you're
all headed, then why does it matter how long and
how much time their butts are in their seats? And
(17:34):
it was this moment of for me, it was actually
a revelation of we say we have leaders and they're
really just managers right with leader titles?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Right? I completely agree, and I want to dive more
into that. Let's grab our first break. I'm your host,
doctor e Lease Qurtes. We were in the year Timerryan,
a nationally recognized speaker, author, and leadership expert who was
redefining what it means to lead with purpose and compassion
through the concept of followship. We've been talking about some
of why this is an important topic to talk about
in today's times. After the break, we're going to get
(18:08):
into what are the essential characteristics of a strong leader.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(18:49):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Alise A Lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to
(19:13):
working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Thanks for staying with us and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes as I
am dedicated to helping create a world where organizations thrive
because their people thrive are led by inspirational leaders that
help them find and contribute their greatness. And we do
business at Betters the World. I keep researching and writing
my own books. So one of my latest came out
called The Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose can
(19:39):
radically enliven your business. And I wrote it in many
ways to situate what Tamra's also out to do, and
that is to help leaders understand today's very diverse and
discerning workforce and what do they want from you as
a leader and an opportunity an employment experience, and then
I provide you twenty two best practices to equip you
to provide that for them. You can find my books
on m or at my personal site at least quare
(20:02):
test dot com if you are just now joining us.
My guest is Tama Ryan. She's the author of Followship
sixteen Lessons to become a Leader Worth Following. So that
last spit we were talking about about before the break
there about are you a manager or a leader? And
I want to situate that for our leaders because I
think it's really really important for our listeners to discern
(20:24):
this because those two words get conflated all the time,
manager and leader, and they're distinctively different, of course, as
you and I align, and so to call that out.
You know, and this person you were helping to counsel,
she was wanting to tell people how to do their work.
That's what a manager does. A leader, to your earlier point,
creates and situates a compelling vision for people to get
(20:44):
to and they autonomously find the best way to get there,
with support of course and along the way. And I
think it's really critical that what you just said is
I have a client here in Dallas that has about
one hundred people, and their leader, the president, is absolutely
this company as a manager. Everything goes through this person.
So that's important to distinguish.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
I think it's important to distinguish, and I think it's
not an uncommon gap for people to have. And you
think about how our careers progress. You know, you start
as an individual contributor, and often you're hired for your
knowledge and as we you know, have moved to a
(21:27):
knowledge world, so you're hired for your knowledge and then
if you do a good job, and then maybe you're
you work with a couple other people, and so you're
kind of a collaborative contributor. And as you keep moving up,
you become responsible for more and more people's work. That
(21:48):
is very different than being made a leader, but that's
a natural progression for people as they continue to move
up in their career, and nobody really teaches you. Okay,
I am no longer overseeing work. I'm actually responsible. And
how I think about it is a manager sort of
(22:10):
looks looks down and out. So in other words, they're
looking across the people who are doing the work and
the work that's being done and the work product that's
being created. A leader needs to look up and out.
The leader is focused on the horizon and where the
(22:31):
group is going. And again, as you said, creating an
environment and hiring the right people who can figure out
how to get there. The leader is responsible for the what.
The team is responsible.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
For the how.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
And I think, well, first of all, I don't think
anybody teaches you that, and I think over time you
either learn it or you fail, or you become the
leader of a company who really a manager.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Yeah, absolutely, this is just so critical to call out. Now,
let's contrast that, this is such an interesting concept you
had in your book when you were talking about discerning
what really makes for a strong, effective leader, and you
said that you started asking people the question who in
your career has so inspired her that you would crawl
through broken glass to follow them? And you found that
(23:23):
people would answer in one of two varieties.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
What were they Well, what would happen was that either
someone got sort of either a concerned look on their face,
like should I have had somebody like that?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Does that actually happen?
Speaker 4 (23:40):
Yeah? Or they would get this kind of glowy look.
The interesting thing was if they had had someone like that,
they knew immediately who it was. There was no question,
They didn't have to think for a while, and so
they got this really sort of glowy, proud look and
then they begin to describe what it was about that
(24:03):
person that was so special. But I thought it was interesting,
and I didn't expect this at all, but I thought
it was interesting. You either didn't ever have anybody like that,
or you absolutely had someone. But I didn't really talk
to anybody who had more than one person, which I
also think is a bit of a statement about the
(24:26):
state of leadership. Wouldn't it be amazing if, as we
come up in our careers, if over and over and
over again we had leaders like that. But no one
I've spoken with has ever had that.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, and I have. I did once upon a time,
and that was it was really my first boss. And
so I can appreciate that. And so, of course the answer,
ladies and gentlemen listening when we talk about what makes
for a strong effective leader are these sixteen qualities that
Tama wrote about, which we're going to try to hit
at least a few of them as we go. But
I wanted to situate that because how many of you
have had a leader that you would crawl through glass for?
(25:05):
I mean, gosh, I mean, so I want to talk
about this notion that you that you put in your
book that I really feel like it's important to discuss,
especially for the female audience members here, And that's this
idea of being kind versus nice me distinguish those terms
for us. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
So I can't tell you how many times as I've
been out in the community in situations where there are
young women, younger women who are earlier in their careers,
who maybe move up into a position and they worry
about whether or not they're liked. They spend a lot
of time worrying about whether or not they're liked, and
(25:45):
and the word nice comes up a lot. I, you know,
I just want to be nice. And I really think
what gets lost is nice is about you. It's your
worry that you're not that you not being perceived, that
you're being perceived as too harsh or.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
A bitch.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
You know that this is all about You're worried about
how you're being perceived. Kind is about the other person.
And I think that when you make that transition and
you begin to realize that, and Brene Brown says this
very very concisely clear, is kind And when when you
(26:30):
think about when we are worried about being nice, we
beat around the bush. We try to say it, and
we couch and we do the you know, give you
a compliment, say what you really need to say that
it might be kind of harsh, and then give another compliment,
and the person walks away from the conversation not really
understanding what the message was. Clear, is kind? Nice is
(26:56):
when you're worried about how you are being perceived.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
I think that's a very powerful distinguished there. One of
the it's always delightful when I see authors that put
forth what and play with language, and the way that
you do that is gorgeous. And especially I gravitated to
your word hum vision. Let's talk about then. That really
speaks to what we said before. It's not about you.
(27:19):
So what's hum vision?
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Well, I think it's a it's a term that's been
around a little bit, and I'm kind of shocked that
it hasn't gotten more attention.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It's not yours.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
I thought it was, Yes, It's the reason it resonated
with me is that the reality is in order to
be willing to lead an organization or division, or to
lead in general, you have to have a certain amount
of ego to be able to do that. And yet
(27:50):
at the same time you always have to be balancing
that with the fact that it's not about you that
and bring the humility to the rule to understand that
my job is as the leader is to bring people
with me. It is not to be the hero or
the savior of this project or this organization, and it's
(28:13):
I think often in a leadership role, one of the
challenges is that you often have to be able to
have the ability to entertain two opposing ideas at the
same time that and be comfortable enough in that cognitive
dissonance to be able to do your work and to
(28:37):
lead the team. And to me, that's what ambition is.
It is this idea that you need to be a
strong leader, you need to have enough sense of yourself
and ego to be able to lead, while at the
same time recognizing that the moment you begin to think
it's actually about you, everybody's in trouble.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Yeah. Yeah. That you go on to say that leaders
had embraced this idea that they give space for the
follower to become the most confident version of themselves while
modeling what's striving to become better looks like. And I
think that's really important for me as somebody who teaches
inspirational leadership, and really the idea that part of a
(29:21):
leader's job is help people realize their greatness. Well, how
do you do that? If you model what better looks
like and you are encouraging them to develop their sense
of self and their confidence, you can help them get there.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yes, And I think that it's also too often when
someone is struggling, we have a tendency to want to
save them, and when you've saved someone from themselves, you
really haven't helped them help them learn. I talked about
in the book how often I would have a conversation
(29:55):
with myself before going into a challenging a challenging meeting,
or a meeting where someone perhaps wasn't wasn't performing well,
and I would ask myself, am I committed to this
person's success? Because if I am committed to their success,
how I show up to that meeting is going to
look very different and and also defining in my mind
(30:20):
what success looks like, because that's what I need to communicate.
If I'm committed to your success, and I'm clear on
what success looks like, then I can coach you to
get closer to that. And I think too often we
have an expectation of people and we don't necessarily clearly
(30:42):
communicate it, and we say it more general terms like
I just need to do to do your job. And
so maybe I have an idea of what do your
job looks like? And maybe the person I'm saying this
too has an idea of what do your job looks like?
But if you've never had that conversation about what your
expectations are and what do your job does look like?
(31:05):
Then why would you expect to be successful?
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Mm hmm. Yeah, there's so much value in learning to
communicate clearly and also helping support people when they need it.
Let's grab our last break here. I'm your host, Doctor
Release Cortez, who've been on the air with Taram Ryan,
a nationally recognized speaker, author, and leadership expert who is
redefining what it means to lead with purpose and compassion
through her concept of followship. We've been talking about some
(31:31):
of the nuances of really being an effective leader. Today.
We're going to continue the conversation after the break. We'll
be right back.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Doctor Release Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(32:14):
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Alise
a Lise at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to Working
(32:38):
on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you
know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.
If you will learn more about how we can work
together and learn about the Gustro Now Academy for leaders
and individuals on various journeys alike, make your way to
Gusto dashdown dot com and then navigate to the training
tap and you'll find it there if you are just
(33:06):
now joining us. My guest is the author of Followship
sixteen authors to Become a Leader worth Following. That's Tama
Ryan So, Tama. One of the things I want to
get into next or is a couple of pieces. There's
several of the lessons that are really especially poignant for me.
But I want to talk about one of the next
and that is the idea that your word is your bond.
How critical this is, and especially you say that a
(33:27):
leader worth following holds themselves to a higher standard for
their accountability than they do others.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Well, I think that this is one that probably we
could almost anyone in our country today could look around
and say that we're disappointed with our leaders because they
don't espouse this view. I think that this idea of
(34:00):
understanding both the weight of your words, that when you're
in a leadership role and people begin to have respect
for you in that role, they're paying attention to everything
that you say. Yes, And I think that depending on
the type of person we are, and I am, I'm
an ideator, So I like to say, I wonder if
(34:26):
such and such, you know, might work, or I might
if I if I don't watch myself, I might say
something that's sort of a throwaway thing, or I might
try on an opinion for size, just like do I,
you know, say something and then wonder do I really
believe that? And what I've learned over time is that
(34:48):
first of all, you're the everyone is paying attention to
your words, and and if you're not careful enough, they
will take your words and run with them, both in
good ways and bad ways. And so I would preface
it by saying that's the first part of that lesson.
(35:08):
The second is that when you say you're going to
do something, because your words carry so much weight, people
are going to take you for your word, and then
they're going to pay attention to whether or not you
did what you said you were going to do. And
that could be things as simple as I'm going to
(35:30):
talk to Joe about this situation and then getting busy
or wanting to avoid conflict and not actually having the
conversation with Joe that you might not think as a
leader that's that big of a deal, like, oh, I'll
get to it eventually. The person you've made that commitment
to thinks it's a big deal. And I think we
(35:53):
forget that people are paying close attention to what we
say and close attention to what we say we will do,
and we don't think of our word as being things
that we say as being a commitment often enough, and
we're surrounded I think by people in really every sector
(36:14):
who don't see their word as their bond.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Completely agree, and that's one of the reasons I wanted
to you to talk about this specific lesson. And one
thing I would say, listeners and viewers is in my
work with leaders, what I have discovered the same thing
that Tammer's talking about over and over again. People are saying,
we don't trust the leader because they don't follow through
what they said they're going to do. And I think
it's oftentimes as simple as not having a system to
(36:38):
capture what you said you were going to do. Right,
and you said you were going to have a conversation
with Joe, but you completely slipped your mind as you
ran to the next meeting. And I think that part
of the opportunity here is just to simply find a
way to really really hold yourself accountable by capturing for
yourself what you said you were going to do.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Well, you know, it's funny you'd say that, And I've
just flashed to any number of one on one conversations
I would have with my direct reports, and in that conversation,
often what would come out of it is I would
say something like, well, let me look into that file
(37:17):
and see if I can find that history, or let
me find so and so's phone numbers so that you
can call them, whatever, very simple things, but I would
never say it and not write it down. So I
would sit in that meeting, and you know, of course
I would go into all of those one on ones
prepared for the topics that I wanted to discuss and
(37:39):
check in on. But I would never walk out of
that meeting without having written that down on the list
of things that I had to do. And I think
something as simple as that keeps you accountable. I also
think sometimes we miss the fact as leaders, we miss
the fact that we hold and you talked about this
(38:01):
before the break, that we hold everyone accountable, but are
we holding ourselves accountable? Two? I believe we need to
hold our selves accountable, even to a higher standard, But
I think too often we're so focused on holding everyone
else accountable we haven't given a lot of thought to
how we're holding ourselves accountable in the same or even
(38:25):
a more rigorous way.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Yeah, Agreed's such an opportunity. Some of that is just
self awareness and having a system to be able to
do that. But one of the things that you mentioned
earlier that I definitely wanted to talk about when you
were talking about the example of you know, I'm going
to talk circle back with Joe, as you said something
about you know, maybe you're running from conflict or afraid
of conflict. And I think this is a critical one.
(38:47):
This is some one of your lessons here not to
run away from conflicts. So let's talk about that one.
Speaker 5 (38:52):
Well, she smiles when I say that, Yeah, really likes
conflict and yet at the same time and in conflict,
I think in our minds.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Uh, you know, that is multiple levels. It can be
something as simple as that you need to have a
tough conversation with someone that's going to be a message
that's really hard to deliver. I mean that's one version
of that, and I agree it's it is way more
(39:26):
way easier from a mental anguish standpoint to avoid having
hard conversations.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Uh. And and to ignore.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
The subtle cues that there there's something going on. But
I guarantee that if things not addressed, will blow up,
and they'll and blow up. Might not be a big
dramatic thing, but you will lose good team members, you
will lose credibility, you will lose profitable uh. And So
(40:02):
having being willing to have the hard conversations and being
willing to address conflict in a productive, non confrontational way
is is probably one of the most important skills you
anyone as a leader can can learn and I often
(40:25):
I think that often what happens is that it's never
as bad as we imagine it to be. It's the
avoidance of it that that that makes it seem bigger.
I also in the book, I talk about a situation
that UH that occurred where I knew and it was
a huge conflict with multiple team members, and I knew
(40:48):
in that situation I was not equipped to address it,
but I didn't want to avoid it. That there was
no scenario in which avoiding addressing it was was a
good solution. So in that situation, I actually brought someone
in to help with it. So I guess I don't
want to come across as saying that a leader must
(41:12):
always know how to handle the conflict, because I don't
think that that's realistic. I think we all bring our
own baggage to our work situations, and when you put
a group of people together, sometimes it conflates into something
much bigger than you, as a leader can handle. The
key is recognizing it's when it's your role to address it,
(41:36):
and when perhaps you need to get some help to
address it. But the whole point of it is not
addressing It's not a.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Choice, right, right, And just quickly on that. There's so
much we could say about this, but even just understanding
how you relate to conflict yourself, Thomas Killman's five styles
can help you with that. And when you start looking
at what's the source of the conflict. Is this about values?
Is this about the process of work that we're trying
to to accomplish. There is this about power or status?
Is it about the relationship? That just really helps to
(42:06):
start to make the conversation much more productive right out
of the gate.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Well exactly, And I do talk about that in the
book of Really a lot of the book is about
knowing thyself, you know, with the theory of theory being
that when you know yourself you can show up as
a better leader, but also really getting more in tune
with the people who you work with so that you
(42:33):
really understand the perspective they bring to conflict, to work.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
To success.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
You know.
Speaker 4 (42:44):
At Women's Being Projects, I worked in an environment where
there were many people who were just we're more afraid
of success than failure because they failure was familiar. Success
began to create is comfort because it said things like, well,
they're going to hold me to a higher standard. Now
(43:07):
when I failed. Everybody knew, you know, to expect that
of me, and so even understanding that of the people
I worked with was super helpful in terms of how
I could work with them and how I could better
frame their behavior.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Yes, and in many ways, what you've been just discussing
there really does speak to in smacks of emotional intelligence,
which we really can't go a day without hearing that phrase. However,
what I would say is that many people really don't
understand what that entails. One, they don't understand that if
you look at the Goldman model, the four aspects of it.
But part of what you also talk about is how
important it is for leaders to understand and correctly label
(43:52):
their own feelings before they can even be adapt at
helping others connect with their own.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
Yeah. I talk in the book about and this was,
you know, part of a personal evolution for me. But
this happens to us all the time. And I think
your listeners will be able to relate things happen around
us and we have responses, you know, we have emotional responses.
I think that's not uncommon. What is uncommon, though, is
(44:22):
taking a step back and saying, gosh, why did I
why does that make me so mad? What is that
situation reminding me of or what is that bringing up
for me? And taking that next step to really understand
why you have that emotional response before you react or
act is probably one of the most important skills relative
(44:45):
to emotional intelligence that I've learned personally, and just getting
in touch with Holy cow, that really kind of ticks
me off, what's going on for me? Not We have
a tendency I think as humans to say you really
made me mad instead of saying, huh, that really actually
kind of made me mad. I wonder what's going on
(45:05):
for me that, what does that trigger for me? And
that isn't about being all, you know, all up in
our feelings. It's really having this self awareness of understanding
why we behave or react in a way to the
external environment, because most of the time, you know, it's
(45:27):
sort of bringing our middle school selves to our adult lives,
which is, you know, in middle school, you think everybody's
looking at your stupid haircut or your you know, your
pants that your mom made you wear or whatever. And really,
as we get older, what we should begin to realize
is the fact of the matter is most people aren't
thinking about us at allst of the time, and they're
(45:51):
doing things not to make you mad or to make
you upset. They're doing things because of their own reasons
why they do things. And in the same way that
we need to understand why we're responding in the way
that we are. It's not being done to us being
it is being done and we're having feelings about it.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Yeah, And to bring this point home, I'm sure many
the listeners and viewers are like, yeah, huh, yeah, I
got all that. I know, all that makes complete sense.
And then let's just throw some numbers at you, ladies
and gentlemen. You quote an organizational psychologist, Tasha Urick in
your book and who says that ninety five percent of
people believe they are self aware, ninety five percent, but
(46:33):
only ten to fifteen percent actually fit the criteria of
being self aware. I think this is really important, right,
you know, we're not nearly as with it as we
think we are.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Well, yes, and that goes back to the ego part, right,
So it's the one question I would ask is is
the ninety five percent comes from the ambition, right and
a ten to fifteen percent really comes when humility actually.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Ends up being combined with that.
Speaker 4 (47:05):
I thought that that was fascinating because if you think
about that and how that's showing up leaders walking around
and their companies ninety five percent thinking they've got it
going on, and really only ten to fifteen percent actually do.
No wonder people are quitting their jobs or not inspired
(47:27):
by their leaders, or not trusting their leaders.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Right right, Oh, so important. I'm so glad that you're
on this next venture of your life. I'm so grateful
that I got to read your book. As as I
said too, I'm completely aligned with this. So much of
this is what I've been trying to teach as well.
So now we're locking arms. We're doing this together. You know,
the show's listened by people around the world who are
trying to develop their leadership. They're trying to find companies
(47:54):
that will help them realize their greatness. What would you
like to leave them with today?
Speaker 4 (47:59):
Well, I think that when we think about leadership as
a journey, not a destination, then that opens us up
to a continuous improvement and then we will never entirely
be there, But gosh, how fulfilling to wake up every
day and try and so, you know, I invite people
(48:22):
to read the book it's available and it can be
ordered at any bookstore. It's also available on Amazon and
it's also available in the kindle version. But really, think
of this your leadership as your journey. Is what I'd
like to leave with is that it really isn't a destination.
There's not a day I think that you wake up
(48:43):
and say, oh I got it. Instead, there's all there
are always new things to.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Learn, completely agree, which is why I continue to champion
lifelong learning. Tamra. It's a delight to know you. Thanks
for coming back on to working a purpose.
Speaker 4 (48:58):
I'm delighted to be here. Thank you, Alise.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Listeners and interviewers, you're want to learn more about Tamara Ryan,
her book, Followship, and her the work that she's doing
to elevate leaders, visit her website tam Ryan dot com.
Let me spell that for you. Tamra is t A
M R A Ryan R y A N Tamra Ryan
dot com. Last week, if you missed the live show,
you can always catch it via recorded podcast. We were
(49:21):
on air with Elizabeth Weingarten talking about her new book,
How To Fall in Love with Questions, A New Way
to Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. We talked about how
to use questions to help us when we feel stuck, powerless,
or drained, and unlock self discovery to help us feel
fully alive while working through uncertainty. Next week will be
on the air with Wes Adams talking about his book
(49:43):
Meaningful Work, how to ignite passion and performance in every employee.
See you then, and together, let's lean in and learn
how to make work workplaces work for everyone and find
ways to do business in a way that betters the world.
Let's work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY
Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments
should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for
(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortez.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning again this week. Great
to have you. I'm your host, doctor A Release Cortes.
If you don't know me and we haven't met before,
I'm a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapists,
speaker and author. My team and I at Gusto Now
help companies enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,
(01:27):
high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nurturing managers activated by
meaning and purpose. And did you know that inspired employees
outperform their satisfied peers by a factor of two point
twenty five to one. In other words, inspiration is good
for the bottom line. You can learn more about us
at and how we can work together at gustodashnow dot
com or my personal site at Lascortes dot com. Getting
(01:48):
into today's program, we have with us back with us.
This is our second time. Tamra Ryan a nationally recognized speaker, author,
and leadership expert who is redefining what it means to
lead with purpose and compassion. She served as CEO of
Women's Being Project from two thousand and three to twenty
twenty five. It's a social enterprise transforming lives through transitional employment.
(02:10):
And now she now dedicates herself to empowering others to
become leaders worth following. She's the author of two books,
one of which we'll be talking about today, Followship Sixteen
Lessons to Become a Leader Worth Following. She joins us
today from Denver, Temra. Welcome back to Working on Purpose.
It's great to see you. It is. Indeed, look at
this beautiful thing that you put out into the world.
(02:31):
It's just gorgeous. And I really, as I told you
in our exchange, is align with everything that you said
in that book, and so much of it is really
what I have been trying to teach leaders too in
my practice. So I'm excited to get into this conversation
with you. But let's first open for our listeners and
viewers who don't know you the way that I do.
(02:51):
Share a bit about where this book came from and
some of the things you're drawing from from your previous experience.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Well, it was I think any book is sort of
a labor of love.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Definitely, most definitely.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
You definitely don't write a book because it's easy to do,
and you know, as I was as I led an organization,
a mission based organization for twenty two years. I know
that I changed and I became, I believe, a better
person and a better leader. And while I was learning
(03:26):
the things that I think made me those things, I
watched as so many people were either disappointed by the
leaders they were working with. As a society, we can
see in the news all the time poor models of leadership,
and then there were also some models where I'd look
(03:48):
at people's success and say, Okay, what allowed them to
become so visionary and to change a culture or to
change an industry. So I really began thinking about as
I interacted with the people I worked with, what really
inspired them to want to be there with me and
(04:09):
what conversely turned them off. And so I really felt
like there was an opportunity to write about the things
that I learned during my experience as CEO of Women's
Being Project in a way that might save a lot
of other people time, Because I think the challenge of
(04:30):
leadership is that you don't go into the job thinking
knowing exactly how to do it. It put your first
leadership role and I can't tell you how many people
just this week I was in a CEO group, and
to a person, everyone around the room talked about the
amount of time it took them, and this was in
(04:51):
years before they actually really became the CEO. And what
they meant by that was I had to grow into
the role of learning how to lead, and I didn't
know how to do it at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And yet none of.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Us are going to say that when we first are hired,
because you've just been hired to lead. So the motivation
of the book really was to say, here's an opportunity
to save you some time and really get to what
I think people are looking for today in their leaders.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
You definitely make a really strong case for this lack
of trust that people have in their leaders, and that
you make a case for doing leadership differently, and I
really this is what I really want to embrace. You
say it's time to turn the focus away from what
leaders want to give and toward what followers are seeking
from their leaders, what entices people and enlist them to
(05:46):
join the leader and accomplishing great things. I call this
new way of leading followship, and I think.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
That the reason I call it followship is that instead
of thinking about how do I lead, it is instead
it is looking at it what inspires somebody to want
to be there with me. I often joke that if
you're a leader and you turn around and look behind
you and no one's there, you're actually not leading. And
(06:14):
I think too often, almost maybe by definition, leadership is
a very singular role. When you're leading a company, it's
very lonely, and often we as a society put the
leader on the pedestal, especially very public facing leadership roles,
(06:34):
and as a result, I think that the risk is
leaders begin to think it's about them. And what I
often said leading a very prominent social enterprise, that people
made the decision whether or not to support our organization
based on meeting me. But the moment I began to
think it was about me, we were all in trouble.
(06:55):
It was never about me. It was a role that
I had in a responsibility. I had to inspire people
to want to join us on our on our quest
to change the world. And the same thing goes for
the people who are working with you. Your job as
a leader is to inspire people to want to be
with you to accomplish great things, and to accomplish a
(07:17):
mission and the purpose of the organization and I think
this is true whether or not you're leading a mission
based organization or a for profit organization.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I completely agree a couple of things. I really want
to call it. There's so many specific things about your
work and your book that I really want a position
for listeners and viewers. So first I want to situate
and listeners and viewers listen to this carefully. If you're
a leader, I really want you to listen to this
and hear this you say in your book camera. Many
leaders are caught in the gap between where they currently
sit because of their training background and role models and
(07:52):
where their followers expect them to be. And that's back
on thinking that you know there it's about them, but
I think it's important to call it that they are
stuck in that gap. And as soon as they can
they realized that they are stuck in the gap, they
can do something about that.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yes, And I think that everything around them is reinforcing
where they're stuck and not and not giving them a
path or even insisting they find a path to be different.
So I think, you know, you think about our society
(08:29):
and how we view leaders and how we treat leaders,
and how we have in some instances sort of a
heroship worship of leaders, and yet we're very at the
same time often very turned off by that by when
someone behaves as though they deserve it, and so we're
(08:52):
not giving anyone the opportunity to see the path to
maybe it's a more enlightened leadership of recognizing it's not
about them. And that's I think why we're stuck is
because we put leaders on a pedestal, and then we
resent them for being on that pedestal.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yes, and the other thing that I'm so present to
and I've written about it a little bit in my
last book, The Great Vitalization, but you speak to it
quite quite eloquently in your book. You say that leaders
are learning that the hard way, that the relationship between
them and their follower has been democratized. Followers now understand
their power to choose whether or not to stay with
the leader, and I think that's really important. I think
(09:33):
for a lot of leaders, especially some of these really
really high level CEOs of large companies, I think this
is really really devastating for them.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
I think that is true, it's devastating for them, or
they blame it on the generational difference.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Oh, definitely, No, question.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
I've been in so many conversations where the CEO will
lament uh uh, you know kids these days kind of
conversation where like what's going on with this next generation
that's coming up? And what I think is that's that's
a representation of this gap, is that you know, I
(10:17):
do think I I came up in my career at
a time where you you showed up, you just did
what the leader said, you didn't question it, and there
was it was maybe a lot more fear based development
as as a professional. And now so now we have
(10:39):
leaders who came up during that time who are looking
to their their younger employees and saying, I don't understand
why you think you should have a voice here, right?
And and so in the difference I think when when
I talk about followship is recognizing I do have a voice,
(11:01):
because if you want them to come with you, you
need to hear what they have to say and gosh,
they might actually have something great to say. But that
you as a collective will be much more powerful together.
That this isn't about how strong you are as a leader,
as a soul leader, This is about your ability to
(11:23):
again inspire people to want to be there with you,
and I think I talk about this in the book. Also,
that doesn't mean that you aren't ultimately the decision maker.
It means that you are. You are providing a platform
for people to have voice and ultimately knowing that you're
(11:44):
making a decision. And so I talk about how to
communicate those decisions, how to communicate to the followers what
the process is going to be, how to understand why
people have resistance because people don't like change. And usually
(12:05):
leaders like change because they're the ones leading the change. Generally,
people don't like change because it's being done to them, right,
So I talked about those kinds of things in the past.
I think you just as a leader, you implement a change,
and you sort of said, you know, suck it up
and come with me, or don't. And I'm really trying
(12:26):
to make the case that we will. We will be
better together.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Yes, completely agree. A couple of things that came up
from that camera. First, I attended a dinner a few
weeks ago and there was a gentleman there who had
mentioned he offered that he was seventy six and had
worked all over the world, and he was talking about
today's workforce, and he said he said, these new younger
(12:49):
people need to learn how to just be quiet, and
I said, excuse me, sir, with all due respect, I
completely disagree with you. And we went into a conversation
about that, and it was just so it's kind of
along the lines of we we're talking about here. And
then last night I attended a conscious capitalism event here
in Dallas and we got into a conversation about the
speaker was saying that I am a voice for the voiceless,
(13:12):
and someone else got up into the crowd and said,
I must, I must be controversial and tell you that
I used to say that same thing. And she said, now,
I recognize everyone has a voice, it's just that they
haven't been able to use it so frequently. And now
I'm about enabling more people to use that voice, not
to speak on behalf of others for their voice. And
(13:33):
so I think there's I think you've really hit on
something important here. I think that this exasperation is an
expression of not understanding that that this that we have
a we are a bigger, fuller workforce of multiple voices
and generations, and yes, we are better together. So I
think you've really articulated that really well well.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Thanks, and and I think also what gets what has
been lost is that you can and then lists people
to come with you if they understand where they're going
and they buy into the vision. And so there is
a whole section about this idea that your responsibility as
a leader is to create a vision that those who
(14:17):
are around you contribute to, but to create a vision
of where you're going and how much better the world
is going to be when you accomplish that vision and
then enless people to come with you. And I think
too often what happens is the leader does not give
a lot of thought to that vision, and potentially that
(14:40):
there is no vision. It's just about shareholder value. And
so everybody's marching forward, or the leader is hoping everyone
marches forward to creating this shareholder value that potentially nobody
but the leader has any interest in helping to create.
I think that that's that's also what gets lost, is
(15:02):
that this isn't about a bunch of automatons who are
going to follow this leader. It's about people being bought
into where you're.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Headed, no question, no question. One of things that we
learned last night, the speaker had been a CEO of
various companies, and you know, and he's he said that
for most CEOs, the contract is that they are there
to serve the company, and they're absolutely set there the
shareholder that's in their contract. So of course everything that
(15:33):
they're compensated and incentivized to do has to do serving
that shareholder. And of course there are all these other
stakeholders that that are interested in that effort as well,
and that's a major disconnect. And that came up with
around the conversation of what did the speaker think about
us moving from a quarterly earnings to a biennial quarterly
(15:56):
or earnings set up? And he said, it's not going
to solve the problem, might even make it worse anyway.
It's I think that's a really important thing to understand too.
In the mix of all this year, there's some really
divided interest here at work that I think need to
be addressed at some point.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
And I think both divided interest and divide a perspective.
I talked my book about a meeting where I was
with a group of women CEOs and that conversation, yes,
and and the what was so interesting was and I
so we were going around the table and giving this
(16:32):
one CEO our advice or input about her concern that
nobody seemed to work as hard as she did as
she was building her company, and she didn't understand why
they didn't put in the hours, et cetera. And I
just was really struck by how obsessed she it felt
(16:52):
she was with people but being in their seats, right.
And so when it came to my turn, I said,
you know, I I guess it depends on what you want.
Do you want to be the manager of these people
or do you want to lead these people? And it
seems to me, as the leader of the company, you
want to lead them. And so if they understand where
(17:14):
you're headed and how they benefit. You know, it was
a small company, so they would benefit from the success
of the company. And you have clearly articulated where you're
all headed, then why does it matter how long and
how much time their butts are in their seats? And
(17:34):
it was this moment of for me, it was actually
a revelation of we say we have leaders and they're
really just managers right with leader titles?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Right? I completely agree, and I want to dive more
into that. Let's grab our first break. I'm your host,
doctor e Lease Qurtes. We were in the year Timerryan,
a nationally recognized speaker, author, and leadership expert who was
redefining what it means to lead with purpose and compassion
through the concept of followship. We've been talking about some
of why this is an important topic to talk about
in today's times. After the break, we're going to get
(18:08):
into what are the essential characteristics of a strong leader.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(18:49):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Alise A Lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to
(19:13):
working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Thanks for staying with us and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes as I
am dedicated to helping create a world where organizations thrive
because their people thrive are led by inspirational leaders that
help them find and contribute their greatness. And we do
business at Betters the World. I keep researching and writing
my own books. So one of my latest came out
called The Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose can
(19:39):
radically enliven your business. And I wrote it in many
ways to situate what Tamra's also out to do, and
that is to help leaders understand today's very diverse and
discerning workforce and what do they want from you as
a leader and an opportunity an employment experience, and then
I provide you twenty two best practices to equip you
to provide that for them. You can find my books
on m or at my personal site at least quare
(20:02):
test dot com if you are just now joining us.
My guest is Tama Ryan. She's the author of Followship
sixteen Lessons to become a Leader Worth Following. So that
last spit we were talking about about before the break
there about are you a manager or a leader? And
I want to situate that for our leaders because I
think it's really really important for our listeners to discern
(20:24):
this because those two words get conflated all the time,
manager and leader, and they're distinctively different, of course, as
you and I align, and so to call that out.
You know, and this person you were helping to counsel,
she was wanting to tell people how to do their work.
That's what a manager does. A leader, to your earlier point,
creates and situates a compelling vision for people to get
(20:44):
to and they autonomously find the best way to get there,
with support of course and along the way. And I
think it's really critical that what you just said is
I have a client here in Dallas that has about
one hundred people, and their leader, the president, is absolutely
this company as a manager. Everything goes through this person.
So that's important to distinguish.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
I think it's important to distinguish, and I think it's
not an uncommon gap for people to have. And you
think about how our careers progress. You know, you start
as an individual contributor, and often you're hired for your
knowledge and as we you know, have moved to a
(21:27):
knowledge world, so you're hired for your knowledge and then
if you do a good job, and then maybe you're
you work with a couple other people, and so you're
kind of a collaborative contributor. And as you keep moving up,
you become responsible for more and more people's work. That
(21:48):
is very different than being made a leader, but that's
a natural progression for people as they continue to move
up in their career, and nobody really teaches you. Okay,
I am no longer overseeing work. I'm actually responsible. And
how I think about it is a manager sort of
(22:10):
looks looks down and out. So in other words, they're
looking across the people who are doing the work and
the work that's being done and the work product that's
being created. A leader needs to look up and out.
The leader is focused on the horizon and where the
(22:31):
group is going. And again, as you said, creating an
environment and hiring the right people who can figure out
how to get there. The leader is responsible for the what.
The team is responsible.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
For the how.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
And I think, well, first of all, I don't think
anybody teaches you that, and I think over time you
either learn it or you fail, or you become the
leader of a company who really a manager.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Yeah, absolutely, this is just so critical to call out. Now,
let's contrast that, this is such an interesting concept you
had in your book when you were talking about discerning
what really makes for a strong, effective leader, and you
said that you started asking people the question who in
your career has so inspired her that you would crawl
through broken glass to follow them? And you found that
(23:23):
people would answer in one of two varieties.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
What were they Well, what would happen was that either
someone got sort of either a concerned look on their face,
like should I have had somebody like that?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Does that actually happen?
Speaker 4 (23:40):
Yeah? Or they would get this kind of glowy look.
The interesting thing was if they had had someone like that,
they knew immediately who it was. There was no question,
They didn't have to think for a while, and so
they got this really sort of glowy, proud look and
then they begin to describe what it was about that
(24:03):
person that was so special. But I thought it was interesting,
and I didn't expect this at all, but I thought
it was interesting. You either didn't ever have anybody like that,
or you absolutely had someone. But I didn't really talk
to anybody who had more than one person, which I
also think is a bit of a statement about the
(24:26):
state of leadership. Wouldn't it be amazing if, as we
come up in our careers, if over and over and
over again we had leaders like that. But no one
I've spoken with has ever had that.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, and I have. I did once upon a time,
and that was it was really my first boss. And
so I can appreciate that. And so, of course the answer,
ladies and gentlemen listening when we talk about what makes
for a strong effective leader are these sixteen qualities that
Tama wrote about, which we're going to try to hit
at least a few of them as we go. But
I wanted to situate that because how many of you
have had a leader that you would crawl through glass for?
(25:05):
I mean, gosh, I mean, so I want to talk
about this notion that you that you put in your
book that I really feel like it's important to discuss,
especially for the female audience members here, And that's this
idea of being kind versus nice me distinguish those terms
for us. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
So I can't tell you how many times as I've
been out in the community in situations where there are
young women, younger women who are earlier in their careers,
who maybe move up into a position and they worry
about whether or not they're liked. They spend a lot
of time worrying about whether or not they're liked, and
(25:45):
and the word nice comes up a lot. I, you know,
I just want to be nice. And I really think
what gets lost is nice is about you. It's your
worry that you're not that you not being perceived, that
you're being perceived as too harsh or.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
A bitch.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
You know that this is all about You're worried about
how you're being perceived. Kind is about the other person.
And I think that when you make that transition and
you begin to realize that, and Brene Brown says this
very very concisely clear, is kind And when when you
(26:30):
think about when we are worried about being nice, we
beat around the bush. We try to say it, and
we couch and we do the you know, give you
a compliment, say what you really need to say that
it might be kind of harsh, and then give another compliment,
and the person walks away from the conversation not really
understanding what the message was. Clear, is kind? Nice is
(26:56):
when you're worried about how you are being perceived.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
I think that's a very powerful distinguished there. One of
the it's always delightful when I see authors that put
forth what and play with language, and the way that
you do that is gorgeous. And especially I gravitated to
your word hum vision. Let's talk about then. That really
speaks to what we said before. It's not about you.
(27:19):
So what's hum vision?
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Well, I think it's a it's a term that's been
around a little bit, and I'm kind of shocked that
it hasn't gotten more attention.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It's not yours.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
I thought it was, Yes, It's the reason it resonated
with me is that the reality is in order to
be willing to lead an organization or division, or to
lead in general, you have to have a certain amount
of ego to be able to do that. And yet
(27:50):
at the same time you always have to be balancing
that with the fact that it's not about you that
and bring the humility to the rule to understand that
my job is as the leader is to bring people
with me. It is not to be the hero or
the savior of this project or this organization, and it's
(28:13):
I think often in a leadership role, one of the
challenges is that you often have to be able to
have the ability to entertain two opposing ideas at the
same time that and be comfortable enough in that cognitive
dissonance to be able to do your work and to
(28:37):
lead the team. And to me, that's what ambition is.
It is this idea that you need to be a
strong leader, you need to have enough sense of yourself
and ego to be able to lead, while at the
same time recognizing that the moment you begin to think
it's actually about you, everybody's in trouble.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Yeah. Yeah. That you go on to say that leaders
had embraced this idea that they give space for the
follower to become the most confident version of themselves while
modeling what's striving to become better looks like. And I
think that's really important for me as somebody who teaches
inspirational leadership, and really the idea that part of a
(29:21):
leader's job is help people realize their greatness. Well, how
do you do that? If you model what better looks
like and you are encouraging them to develop their sense
of self and their confidence, you can help them get there.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yes, And I think that it's also too often when
someone is struggling, we have a tendency to want to
save them, and when you've saved someone from themselves, you
really haven't helped them help them learn. I talked about
in the book how often I would have a conversation
(29:55):
with myself before going into a challenging a challenging meeting,
or a meeting where someone perhaps wasn't wasn't performing well,
and I would ask myself, am I committed to this
person's success? Because if I am committed to their success,
how I show up to that meeting is going to
look very different and and also defining in my mind
(30:20):
what success looks like, because that's what I need to communicate.
If I'm committed to your success, and I'm clear on
what success looks like, then I can coach you to
get closer to that. And I think too often we
have an expectation of people and we don't necessarily clearly
(30:42):
communicate it, and we say it more general terms like
I just need to do to do your job. And
so maybe I have an idea of what do your
job looks like? And maybe the person I'm saying this
too has an idea of what do your job looks like?
But if you've never had that conversation about what your
expectations are and what do your job does look like?
(31:05):
Then why would you expect to be successful?
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Mm hmm. Yeah, there's so much value in learning to
communicate clearly and also helping support people when they need it.
Let's grab our last break here. I'm your host, Doctor
Release Cortez, who've been on the air with Taram Ryan,
a nationally recognized speaker, author, and leadership expert who is
redefining what it means to lead with purpose and compassion
through her concept of followship. We've been talking about some
(31:31):
of the nuances of really being an effective leader. Today.
We're going to continue the conversation after the break. We'll
be right back.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Doctor Release Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(32:14):
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Alise
a Lise at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to Working
(32:38):
on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you
know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.
If you will learn more about how we can work
together and learn about the Gustro Now Academy for leaders
and individuals on various journeys alike, make your way to
Gusto dashdown dot com and then navigate to the training
tap and you'll find it there if you are just
(33:06):
now joining us. My guest is the author of Followship
sixteen authors to Become a Leader worth Following. That's Tama
Ryan So, Tama. One of the things I want to
get into next or is a couple of pieces. There's
several of the lessons that are really especially poignant for me.
But I want to talk about one of the next
and that is the idea that your word is your bond.
How critical this is, and especially you say that a
(33:27):
leader worth following holds themselves to a higher standard for
their accountability than they do others.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Well, I think that this is one that probably we
could almost anyone in our country today could look around
and say that we're disappointed with our leaders because they
don't espouse this view. I think that this idea of
(34:00):
understanding both the weight of your words, that when you're
in a leadership role and people begin to have respect
for you in that role, they're paying attention to everything
that you say. Yes, And I think that depending on
the type of person we are, and I am, I'm
an ideator, So I like to say, I wonder if
(34:26):
such and such, you know, might work, or I might
if I if I don't watch myself, I might say
something that's sort of a throwaway thing, or I might
try on an opinion for size, just like do I,
you know, say something and then wonder do I really
believe that? And what I've learned over time is that
(34:48):
first of all, you're the everyone is paying attention to
your words, and and if you're not careful enough, they
will take your words and run with them, both in
good ways and bad ways. And so I would preface
it by saying that's the first part of that lesson.
(35:08):
The second is that when you say you're going to
do something, because your words carry so much weight, people
are going to take you for your word, and then
they're going to pay attention to whether or not you
did what you said you were going to do. And
that could be things as simple as I'm going to
(35:30):
talk to Joe about this situation and then getting busy
or wanting to avoid conflict and not actually having the
conversation with Joe that you might not think as a
leader that's that big of a deal, like, oh, I'll
get to it eventually. The person you've made that commitment
to thinks it's a big deal. And I think we
(35:53):
forget that people are paying close attention to what we
say and close attention to what we say we will do,
and we don't think of our word as being things
that we say as being a commitment often enough, and
we're surrounded I think by people in really every sector
(36:14):
who don't see their word as their bond.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Completely agree, and that's one of the reasons I wanted
to you to talk about this specific lesson. And one
thing I would say, listeners and viewers is in my
work with leaders, what I have discovered the same thing
that Tammer's talking about over and over again. People are saying,
we don't trust the leader because they don't follow through
what they said they're going to do. And I think
it's oftentimes as simple as not having a system to
(36:38):
capture what you said you were going to do. Right,
and you said you were going to have a conversation
with Joe, but you completely slipped your mind as you
ran to the next meeting. And I think that part
of the opportunity here is just to simply find a
way to really really hold yourself accountable by capturing for
yourself what you said you were going to do.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Well, you know, it's funny you'd say that, And I've
just flashed to any number of one on one conversations
I would have with my direct reports, and in that conversation,
often what would come out of it is I would
say something like, well, let me look into that file
(37:17):
and see if I can find that history, or let
me find so and so's phone numbers so that you
can call them, whatever, very simple things, but I would
never say it and not write it down. So I
would sit in that meeting, and you know, of course
I would go into all of those one on ones
prepared for the topics that I wanted to discuss and
(37:39):
check in on. But I would never walk out of
that meeting without having written that down on the list
of things that I had to do. And I think
something as simple as that keeps you accountable. I also
think sometimes we miss the fact as leaders, we miss
the fact that we hold and you talked about this
(38:01):
before the break, that we hold everyone accountable, but are
we holding ourselves accountable? Two? I believe we need to
hold our selves accountable, even to a higher standard, But
I think too often we're so focused on holding everyone
else accountable we haven't given a lot of thought to
how we're holding ourselves accountable in the same or even
(38:25):
a more rigorous way.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Yeah, Agreed's such an opportunity. Some of that is just
self awareness and having a system to be able to
do that. But one of the things that you mentioned
earlier that I definitely wanted to talk about when you
were talking about the example of you know, I'm going
to talk circle back with Joe, as you said something
about you know, maybe you're running from conflict or afraid
of conflict. And I think this is a critical one.
(38:47):
This is some one of your lessons here not to
run away from conflicts. So let's talk about that one.
Speaker 5 (38:52):
Well, she smiles when I say that, Yeah, really likes
conflict and yet at the same time and in conflict,
I think in our minds.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Uh, you know, that is multiple levels. It can be
something as simple as that you need to have a
tough conversation with someone that's going to be a message
that's really hard to deliver. I mean that's one version
of that, and I agree it's it is way more
(39:26):
way easier from a mental anguish standpoint to avoid having
hard conversations.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Uh. And and to ignore.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
The subtle cues that there there's something going on. But
I guarantee that if things not addressed, will blow up,
and they'll and blow up. Might not be a big
dramatic thing, but you will lose good team members, you
will lose credibility, you will lose profitable uh. And So
(40:02):
having being willing to have the hard conversations and being
willing to address conflict in a productive, non confrontational way
is is probably one of the most important skills you
anyone as a leader can can learn and I often
(40:25):
I think that often what happens is that it's never
as bad as we imagine it to be. It's the
avoidance of it that that that makes it seem bigger.
I also in the book, I talk about a situation
that UH that occurred where I knew and it was
a huge conflict with multiple team members, and I knew
(40:48):
in that situation I was not equipped to address it,
but I didn't want to avoid it. That there was
no scenario in which avoiding addressing it was was a
good solution. So in that situation, I actually brought someone
in to help with it. So I guess I don't
want to come across as saying that a leader must
(41:12):
always know how to handle the conflict, because I don't
think that that's realistic. I think we all bring our
own baggage to our work situations, and when you put
a group of people together, sometimes it conflates into something
much bigger than you, as a leader can handle. The
key is recognizing it's when it's your role to address it,
(41:36):
and when perhaps you need to get some help to
address it. But the whole point of it is not
addressing It's not a.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Choice, right, right, And just quickly on that. There's so
much we could say about this, but even just understanding
how you relate to conflict yourself, Thomas Killman's five styles
can help you with that. And when you start looking
at what's the source of the conflict. Is this about values?
Is this about the process of work that we're trying
to to accomplish. There is this about power or status?
Is it about the relationship? That just really helps to
(42:06):
start to make the conversation much more productive right out
of the gate.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Well exactly, And I do talk about that in the
book of Really a lot of the book is about
knowing thyself, you know, with the theory of theory being
that when you know yourself you can show up as
a better leader, but also really getting more in tune
with the people who you work with so that you
(42:33):
really understand the perspective they bring to conflict, to work.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
To success.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
You know.
Speaker 4 (42:44):
At Women's Being Projects, I worked in an environment where
there were many people who were just we're more afraid
of success than failure because they failure was familiar. Success
began to create is comfort because it said things like, well,
they're going to hold me to a higher standard. Now
(43:07):
when I failed. Everybody knew, you know, to expect that
of me, and so even understanding that of the people
I worked with was super helpful in terms of how
I could work with them and how I could better
frame their behavior.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Yes, and in many ways, what you've been just discussing
there really does speak to in smacks of emotional intelligence,
which we really can't go a day without hearing that phrase. However,
what I would say is that many people really don't
understand what that entails. One, they don't understand that if
you look at the Goldman model, the four aspects of it.
But part of what you also talk about is how
important it is for leaders to understand and correctly label
(43:52):
their own feelings before they can even be adapt at
helping others connect with their own.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
Yeah. I talk in the book about and this was,
you know, part of a personal evolution for me. But
this happens to us all the time. And I think
your listeners will be able to relate things happen around
us and we have responses, you know, we have emotional responses.
I think that's not uncommon. What is uncommon, though, is
(44:22):
taking a step back and saying, gosh, why did I
why does that make me so mad? What is that
situation reminding me of or what is that bringing up
for me? And taking that next step to really understand
why you have that emotional response before you react or
act is probably one of the most important skills relative
(44:45):
to emotional intelligence that I've learned personally, and just getting
in touch with Holy cow, that really kind of ticks
me off, what's going on for me? Not We have
a tendency I think as humans to say you really
made me mad instead of saying, huh, that really actually
kind of made me mad. I wonder what's going on
(45:05):
for me that, what does that trigger for me? And
that isn't about being all, you know, all up in
our feelings. It's really having this self awareness of understanding
why we behave or react in a way to the
external environment, because most of the time, you know, it's
(45:27):
sort of bringing our middle school selves to our adult lives,
which is, you know, in middle school, you think everybody's
looking at your stupid haircut or your you know, your
pants that your mom made you wear or whatever. And really,
as we get older, what we should begin to realize
is the fact of the matter is most people aren't
thinking about us at allst of the time, and they're
(45:51):
doing things not to make you mad or to make
you upset. They're doing things because of their own reasons
why they do things. And in the same way that
we need to understand why we're responding in the way
that we are. It's not being done to us being
it is being done and we're having feelings about it.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Yeah, And to bring this point home, I'm sure many
the listeners and viewers are like, yeah, huh, yeah, I
got all that. I know, all that makes complete sense.
And then let's just throw some numbers at you, ladies
and gentlemen. You quote an organizational psychologist, Tasha Urick in
your book and who says that ninety five percent of
people believe they are self aware, ninety five percent, but
(46:33):
only ten to fifteen percent actually fit the criteria of
being self aware. I think this is really important, right,
you know, we're not nearly as with it as we
think we are.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Well, yes, and that goes back to the ego part, right,
So it's the one question I would ask is is
the ninety five percent comes from the ambition, right and
a ten to fifteen percent really comes when humility actually.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Ends up being combined with that.
Speaker 4 (47:05):
I thought that that was fascinating because if you think
about that and how that's showing up leaders walking around
and their companies ninety five percent thinking they've got it
going on, and really only ten to fifteen percent actually do.
No wonder people are quitting their jobs or not inspired
(47:27):
by their leaders, or not trusting their leaders.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Right right, Oh, so important. I'm so glad that you're
on this next venture of your life. I'm so grateful
that I got to read your book. As as I
said too, I'm completely aligned with this. So much of
this is what I've been trying to teach as well.
So now we're locking arms. We're doing this together. You know,
the show's listened by people around the world who are
trying to develop their leadership. They're trying to find companies
(47:54):
that will help them realize their greatness. What would you
like to leave them with today?
Speaker 4 (47:59):
Well, I think that when we think about leadership as
a journey, not a destination, then that opens us up
to a continuous improvement and then we will never entirely
be there, But gosh, how fulfilling to wake up every
day and try and so, you know, I invite people
(48:22):
to read the book it's available and it can be
ordered at any bookstore. It's also available on Amazon and
it's also available in the kindle version. But really, think
of this your leadership as your journey. Is what I'd
like to leave with is that it really isn't a destination.
There's not a day I think that you wake up
(48:43):
and say, oh I got it. Instead, there's all there
are always new things to.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Learn, completely agree, which is why I continue to champion
lifelong learning. Tamra. It's a delight to know you. Thanks
for coming back on to working a purpose.
Speaker 4 (48:58):
I'm delighted to be here. Thank you, Alise.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Listeners and interviewers, you're want to learn more about Tamara Ryan,
her book, Followship, and her the work that she's doing
to elevate leaders, visit her website tam Ryan dot com.
Let me spell that for you. Tamra is t A
M R A Ryan R y A N Tamra Ryan
dot com. Last week, if you missed the live show,
you can always catch it via recorded podcast. We were
(49:21):
on air with Elizabeth Weingarten talking about her new book,
How To Fall in Love with Questions, A New Way
to Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. We talked about how
to use questions to help us when we feel stuck, powerless,
or drained, and unlock self discovery to help us feel
fully alive while working through uncertainty. Next week will be
on the air with Wes Adams talking about his book
(49:43):
Meaningful Work, how to ignite passion and performance in every employee.
See you then, and together, let's lean in and learn
how to make work workplaces work for everyone and find
ways to do business in a way that betters the world.
Let's work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
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