November 4, 2025 • 50 mins
Every leader carries a story that shapes how they relate, influence, and inspire. Whether you lead from security, anxiety, or avoidance, you can rewrite that story. Learn to reexamine your personal narrative, extract its wisdom, heal old scripts, and consciously reauthor your path toward grounded, secure, and vibrant leadership.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
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or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should
be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing
(00:21):
W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has
there brought to you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteen. As for tuning again this week. Great
to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elis Cortes. If
we've not met before, you don't know me. I am
a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapists, speaker
and author. My team and I at Gusto Now help
companies enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,
(01:27):
high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nurturing managers activated by
meaning and purpose. And did you know that inspired employees
in purpose that organizations outperform their satisfied peers by a
factor of two point twenty five to one. In other words,
inspiration is good for the bottom line. You can learn
more about us and how we can work together at
Gusto dashnow dot com and my personal site, Elis Coortes
(01:49):
dot com. Getting into today's program, we have doctor Jamie Goff,
the founder of The Empathic Leader, where she specializes in
helping leaders unlock their full potential through executive coaching, insightful workshops,
and thought provoking keynotes. She also serves as the director
of leadership Development for an international health care system, where
she designs and leads innovative programs that inspire leaders to thrive.
(02:11):
Her career began in higher education as a professor of
couple and family therapy and later as an academic dean.
She's the author of The Secure Leader, Discover the Hidden
Forces that shape your Leadership story and how to change them.
We'll be talking about her research and expertise in relational
attachment styles and how they're manifesting leadership effectiveness. She judged
today from Dallas. Jamie, A hearty welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Thank you, e Lise, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Very welcome, and let's celebrate this beautiful thing you brought
into the world. It's gorgeous and I want to say
a couple things about it. One, it's really a unique
take on leadership. As I mentioned before we got on air,
we cover a lot of topics around leadership, but this
is really a unique, specific take that really you are
uniquely qualified to talk about. And I also want to
(02:59):
congratulate you on creating a very cogently written that hangs
together tight. I love the examples. Just really well done, Jamie.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Thank you. That means so much to me at least.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, you're welcome and we were talking before we got
on air. I remember when we met more than a
year ago in Mexican Sugar and this was, you know,
a dream of viewers.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
You were working on making it happen.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
And I said, right then and there, well, when you
get a done, sister, you've got to come on my
podcast to talk about it.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
And here we are.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Here we are, and you've been such a great supporter
along the entire journey. So I'm deeply grateful.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
You're welcome, and you know we need to do that
for each other, right, we all need encouragement and support,
especially when we're going for our dreams.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Absolutely, Well, I want to situate for our listeners and
viewers who don't know you as well as I do.
I think you're the fact that you have a background
first in academia and physically and mental health, and then
as you know your work today as an executive development
and coach and corporate healthcare and other organizations. It's really
quite unique that you have both of those backgrounds. So
(03:59):
if you just sort of situate how you got into
those fields and how maybe they complement each other.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 6 (04:07):
So you know, like many college students, you're just kind
of choosing a major that sounds interesting. So you know,
when I was in college, of course, I majored in psychology,
and then did my graduate in PhD work specifically in
couple in family therapy, and I first began getting into
the attachment sciences. Actually, when I was a PhD student,
(04:30):
I did some work on a research team where we
were working to reunify mothers, very young mothers, most of
them with their infants, who had been removed from the
home due to primarily neglect.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
And I was a.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
Therapist on that team, and I was working with these
young mothers to teach them how to form secure attachments
with their babies, and all of these babies were under
two years of age, helping them to be attuned, to
be able to read their child's responses so that they
could build secure attachment relationships with them, setting them up
(05:07):
for future success when they were eventually reunified. Then, later
on in my career as a couple of family therapists,
I actually decided to specialize in couples therapy and I
became trained in some attachment based couple relational approaches to therapy.
(05:27):
So looking at kind of some of those same dynamics
around attunement and responsiveness to one another in relationships and
how that plays out in couple relationships. And then when
I found myself in my very first leadership role, I
started thinking about how.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Some of these same dynamics.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
As I was observing relationships between leaders and their followers
and also thinking about myself as a leader, I realized
that a lot of the same dynamics were present in
those relationships as well. And so that's when I first
became interested in really exploring how the attachment sciences might
inform how we show up as leaders in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
That is beautiful, What a stunning narration of the steps
along the way that got to where you are today.
You have a lot of great data in your book,
and a lot of the stories are very relatable. And
one of the things I want to call to here
is just the opportunity here which is also disguised as
a problem. And you talk about how your two examples
(06:31):
in your book are are Joanna and David, but you
really talk a lot about how when a recent survey
showed that seventy five percent of workers said that the
most stressful aspect of their job was their immediate boss,
and fifty six claimed their boss was mildly or highly toxic.
So that's why this stuff is so important. Then I
(06:52):
can tell you and I know you can relate to
this is I so badly want to reach and help
more leaders, and so many of them are resistant to
don't really think they need help, but these numbers say otherwise.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Yeah, they absolutely do.
Speaker 6 (07:04):
And that you know, that research comes from McKinsey, of course,
who you know, they're looking at huge populations of leaders
and employees when they when they collect this data and
do this research. So this isn't yeah, this isn't an anomaly.
This this really represents a large population. And uh, you know,
we've all you know, or probably many of us have
(07:25):
seen the research that points to the impact that leaders
have on you know, their employees' mental health, they're just
their overall general well being. And so leaders are incredibly
important in the lives of the people that report to them.
And on top of that, of course, we do spend
most of our time, most of our waking hours at
(07:46):
work in the workplace, right, and so it it can
either be you know, the workplace can either be a
place where you know, we can flourish and feel fulfilled
and have purpose as you like to talk about, or
in this situation, when you know, bosses are seen as
stressful and toxic, they often really drain us and can
(08:10):
take away from our flourishing and hurt us in some ways.
And so to me, that is just so important to
really look at how we can make our workplaces better.
And I do believe it all starts with leadership.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I completely agree, and I completely also agree the huge
impact we can make negatively and positively in people's lives.
So I love your three part formula that you put
in your books. That's part of what I'm speaking of,
how tightly written your book is. And so step one
of your three part formula involves deconstructing our leadership story.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
And I really like how you.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Talk about how to understand the development of our left
and right brains, et cetera. So if you could talk
a little bit about this first step of deconstructing our
leadership story.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
Yeah, you know, I really believe that in order to
kind moved forward, we need to take time to look back,
and that that really this really is about self awareness
and honestly looking at our previous like life experiences, honestly
looking at you know, our childhoods and what we experience,
(09:16):
not not for the purpose of blaming you know, our
parents or you know, trying to find scapegoats for you know,
some of the challenges we might face in our adult lives,
but just for the purpose of self awareness and really understanding,
because I think that awareness helps us to identify where
we need to maybe make some changes. And so deconstructing
(09:38):
our stories is all about looking back at our past
and really trying to understand where some of our patterns
of behavior, especially in leadership for this book, come from,
Like why do we show up the way that we
do as leaders? How did we develop some of these
patterns that we might engage in. Why is it so
(09:59):
challenging for us to delegate or why do we feel
like we always need to be the fun boss? So
really understanding where those dynamics come from, I think is
the first step. And as we look back, you know,
there are likely things in our past and in our past,
you know, our stories as they've developed over time. There
are some themes that we want to keep because they're
(10:20):
valuable and they've served us well and continue to serve
us well. But oftentimes when we look back, what we
can see is that there are some elements of our stories,
of our behaviors and patterns that aren't serving us well anymore,
and so the decision may need to be made to
rewrite that, to do something different, and to change that
part of our lives. Some might need just a little
(10:41):
bit of revision, some might need, you know, complete rewriting.
Speaker 5 (10:46):
Let's just start over.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Well.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
One of the reasons that I co wrote my latest
book it's called The Power of Soulful Healing with the
clinical psychologist Jamie is because the premise is is that
every single one of us are walking humans, every one
of us. It's just it's tender, this thing called life.
And so the more aware we become of how we're
wounded and where we're hurt and what we're doing to
(11:10):
try to heal that, the more effective we are in life,
the better our relationships ECCEA and we all have to
do that work.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yep, absolutely absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I had the first time that I've understood the attachment sciences.
I was dating somebody in twenty twenty and I just
couldn't understand him, and I also wanted to better understand
my daughter as well. So that's how I started learning
about the attachment sciences and came to understand secure, anxious,
and avoidant attachment styles. Can you introduce, excuse me, each
(11:42):
of those for our listeners and viewers.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
Yeah, absolutely, And I do want to mention if anyone
listening you know also has maybe some expertise and attachment sciences.
There is a fourth style, which is disorganized or ambivalent,
depending on if you're looking at children adults. So I
don't really address in the book simply because it's linked
(12:05):
to more severe trauma, and so in speaking about not
that leaders there aren't leaders who don't have severe trauma
in their lives, but especially when it comes to coaching
and looking at leadership in the workplace, I think the
space for that is in psychotherapy, and so I don't
really deal with that piece. But the three major attachment
(12:26):
styles that I do speak about in the book, the
first being secure, and this is the attachment style we
tend to develop when we have what I call good
enough parents. Right, no parents are perfect, but when our
parents are caregivers, maybe they're not parents, but when our
caregivers are generally consistent in the way that they respond
(12:50):
to our needs, especially during those first eighteen months of
our lives. When we feel like we can count on
them to be there when we're hungry, or when we're tired,
or when we're afraid, then we develop security. We develop
the belief that other people are trustworthy and they're going
to be there for us when.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
We need them.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
And we also begin to develop the belief that we're worthy.
Right if someone is taking the time to care for
me and love me and treat me with dignity, even
as a very young person, then I begin to see
myself as having just worth because I'm a human being,
And so that generates a sense of competence and confidence
(13:31):
in the way that we move about the world.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
So that's secure.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
And then in adulthood, obviously, those that have that secure
attachment style, they're able to form more healthy relationships that
have a good balance of both independence and dependence. Right,
there's that interdependence like I know who I am, I
know who you are, but we're there for each other
and we're very deeply connected to one another. And they
(13:58):
also are able to set good bounceies too, because they
recognize that they don't have to take on everybody else's
feelings or everyone else's problems. That they can see the
boundary between themselves and others, and as leaders, then these
people are the ones who are you open to feedback
from anywhere you know in the organization. They can admit
(14:20):
their mistakes. They are able to coach and develop their
teams because they want to lift other people up, and
they're not threatened by the success of other people on
their teams, and they create those environments of psychological safety
and flourishing.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
So that those are secure leaders.
Speaker 6 (14:41):
The second style anxious attachment. Insecure anxious. Oftentimes these individuals
when they're very young, they're in caregiving environments that are
chaotic and inconsistent, and so many times this has been
linked to like alcoholism or some kind of substance abuse
(15:05):
in the home. This can be a common kind of
outcome in that type of situation where sometimes a parent
responds or a caregiver response to my needs, sometimes they don't,
and it's very confusing and I can't identify what makes
the difference, and.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
So many times what that leads to in terms of behavior.
Speaker 6 (15:24):
These are often the children who will throw the very
severe temper tantrums because they're just trying to do whatever
they can to get what they need from their caregivers
and they know that sometimes they respond, so they kind
of up the ante and trying to get that attention
in the care that they need from their caregivers. And
(15:44):
so what these individuals learned through those interactions, they typically
begin to think that there's something They come to believe
that there's something wrong with themselves. There's something wrong with
me because I can't get this person to consistently care
for me. What am I doing wrong when they don't?
And then they also have trouble trusting because there is
(16:05):
so much inconsistency. So in adulthood there drives.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Let me let me stop you the writer the jeners
real quick, because I really want to drill into that
as well. Yeah, since it's time for a break, what
I want to do is after we come back from
the break, I'll ask you to situate the avoidance style
and then I want to dive more deeply into how
those two show up in leadership. You do that through
David and Joanna, and that will help our listeners and
viewers kind of hang on to it. But let's wrap
(16:30):
our first break. Absolutely the host doctor Lea's Cortes, who
run on the year of doctor Jamie Goff the founder
of The Empathic Leader, where she specializes in helping leaders
unlock their full potential through executive coaching, insight for workshops,
and thought provoking keynotes. We've been talking a bit about
how her initial work in attachment science and then executive
(16:51):
coaching has come together, and we're also learning now about
the different styles of attachment how they show up in
our early life. After the work, we're going to talk
more in depth about how those attachment styles and that
science shows up and manifesting leadership.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(17:42):
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise Alisee at Eliscortes dot com now back to Working
(18:06):
on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I am your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as
I too, am dedicated to helping create a world or
organizations thrive because there are people thrive, but they're led
by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness.
And we do business at Betters the World. I keep
researching and writing my own books. So one of my
latest came out called The Great Revitalization, How activating meaning
(18:33):
and purpose can radically in liven your business. And I
wrote it to help leaders and readers understand the dynamics
of today is very diverse and discerning workforce. What do
they want from you and what do they would be
like for you to supply in terms of culture and leadership?
And then I give you twenty two best practices to equip.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
You to provide that for them.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
You can find my books on Amazon or any other
booksellers as well as Elitecortes dot com if you are
just joining us now. My guest is doctor Jamiekoff. She's
the author of The Secure Leader Discovered the Hidden Forces
that shape your leadership story.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
And how to change them.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
So before the break, you were just starting to introduce
us to the insecure, anxious, dominant attachment style or approach,
and you were sharing a bit about where they came
from from our childhoods and such a beginning to start
to talk about how it shows up in our adult behavior.
If you could carry that on, and then I don't
know if you want to talk about the other attachment
(19:26):
style first, or if you want to go over and
talk about Joanna and David as examples.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
Yeah, and so for we can maybe kind of continue
on the anxious attachment style. And in the book, I
kind of speak about David, a coaching client, as an
example of someone with an anxious attachment style who's in.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
A leadership role.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
And one of the dynamics that I noticed in David's
leadership is as we were working together, is that David
had a really different cult time giving feedback. And this
was primarily because David wanted to be liked and validated
and he wanted to belong above everything else. That was
(20:13):
his primary driving need, and so that made it difficult
for him to give feedback to individual team members because
he was afraid that if he did so, they wouldn't
like him, they would leave the team, they wouldn't be
as committed to the project. And so what ended up
happening is that he punished the whole team essentially right
because he didn't know how else to manage this underperforming
(20:38):
team member in a one on one way, and so
he would use kind of passive aggressive ways to deal
with the problem of one person. And so we really
had to dig into, like where did his fear of
giving feedback come from? And that's when we discovered it
came from that need he had to be liked and validated.
He didn't really feel like he had much to offer,
(20:59):
and so he was felt feeling really desperate to keep everybody.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
On the team happy, and that ended up backfiring on him.
Speaker 6 (21:07):
And so we were able to work together to get
himTo a place where he kind of worked through some
of those beliefs and challenged some of those driving needs
for himself and was able to get to a place
where he could give feedback and see the benefits of that.
But he was operating out of that insecure anxious attachment style.
(21:30):
And then the third style is the insecure avoidant attachment style.
And this style develops when we have caregivers in our
early childhood who basically are dismissive. They really don't pay
much attention to us at all. So essentially we developed
the belief that I have to do it on my own.
(21:51):
I can't count on anybody else. I'm the only person
I can count on. I have to take care of
my own needs, and so in leadership in the book,
I use the example of Joeyanna, who was a high
individual high performing individual contributor, which is often the case
among those who have avoidant styles, but when they move
(22:14):
into leadership roles, they really struggle because they have a
hard time delegating because they believe they're the only.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Ones that can do it and can do it right.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
They have a hard time delegating and coaching other people
growing their teams, and oftentimes they prefer to work alone,
so they don't really want to be bothered with other people,
and they see often can see other people as being
a nuisance or as holding them back, and so there
can be a lot of disengagement with the team, and
so teams are left, you know, wondering, how how can
(22:46):
I grow? I'm not allowed to do anything or I'm
really micromanaged in the way I'm trying to do things,
and I'm never able to put my own mark on
my work.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
And so those are some of the dynamics you end
up seeing in leadership.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Well explained it now, listeners and viewers, as you were
listening to that, I really want you to consider which
of those styles maybe might speak to you. I can
tell you when I read this, I realized I fall
into the insecure avoidant group.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
I can totally.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Recognize that, and that is just quite there, just break
there recognizing this can really help. Yeah, you know, there
are probably times when I can be more secure, but
that would be my default style. And so you go
on to say that it's important to recognize that even
those secure adults may have tendencies toward anxious or avoidant
relationship behaviors when they're under stress or when they feel
(23:39):
vulnerable and threatened. As you talk about one of your
mentors in the book where she caught you were caught
off guard by her response and was totally unexpected, and
she came back later and apologized, just something a secure
leader can do when they recognize their behavior. Wasn't that
what they wanted? And what was destroying relationships and results.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Absolutely, and that's repair. Right.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
So, secure leaders make mistakes. It's not that they don't
make mistakes, so they don't miscues, but they are able
to recognize those mistakes more quickly and then repair any
ruptures that result.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, and this is just so so powerful, and I
think the examples you gave with the behaviors that we
see with leaders help will help both individuals listening to
those for our leaders going oh, well that's me, I
recognize me, and I'm also what I've got which was
so beautiful about your book, Jamie, is your impact your
empathy saying, hey, if you're starting to recognize yourself in
these pages, you might be uncomfortable. Great, that's step one.
(24:38):
You know you're realizing this, and that's I think that's
really powerful.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
Yeah, And I mean a lot of this came out
like from my own experience too. Like you, I recognize
that I have avoidant tendencies, especially when I'm overwhelmed and
I'm under stressed. And as I you know, looked honestly
back on my own experiences growing up up, you know,
I could see where where those patterns developed, why I
(25:05):
developed in that way. But then I could also see
how some of that wasn't serving me well anymore. And
I've been sharing the story of actually an administrative assistant
who sat me down and said, Jamie, you have got
to let me do my job because I was so
controlling and I would not.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Give her.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
I wouldn't I wouldn't empower her, you know, to do
the work that she was hired to do, because I
wanted to be in control and I thought I was
the only one who could do it. So I have
learned plenty of my own lessons through all of this.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Well, and that's the beautiful thing and right so, I
don't think either one is what we do in the
work that we're doing if we didn't believe that we
humans can grow throughout the course of our lives, and
now neuropusticity tells us that's true.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
We can. And so one of the things I.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Love about the title of your book is that it's
the subtitle is discovered the hidden forces that shape your
leadership story and how to change them.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
You're not stuck with it. You can grow past this.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
And you know, we both have coached people over the years,
and we can see how their style starts to you know,
really negatively impact their home relationship, which comes with them
to work. And when we help and we work with them,
we can recognize how everything in life gets better because
they've learned a better response style. And that's one of
the things you talk about too in your book, is
(26:23):
is how to.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Develop a better response style.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
But first, you know, being able to recognize this in
yourself and having somebody that you can work with. And
you do make a very strong point in your book
about you know this, some of these things you're dealing
with might mean that you probably want to work with
a therapist. That's not what this book is about. So distinguishing.
And I didn't know about that fourth style by.
Speaker 6 (26:43):
The way, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, because you know,
obviously I want to maintain the ethical boundaries around like
coaching versus psychotherapy and the types of things we talk about.
So when I'm talking with these themes, you know, with
my coaching clients, you know, I'm not down with them
and doing a family history like tell me all about
your you know, about your family like I would if
(27:06):
I were a therapist. Maybe, But when those patterns of
behavior are kind of coming to the surface and I'm
hearing them talk about some of the things that they're
struggling with. I often want just ask the question, well,
where do you think that comes from? And that's where
we start, and that opens the door and then they
might start to explore I'm not you know, I'm not
really sure. I wonder where it does come from. And
(27:26):
so then we can kind of talk about, as you
look back on your life, what are some experiences that
you've had that might inform how you're showing up in
this way. But then if it gets into where they're
noting or even mentioning to me, you know, again, potentially
significant trauma that they haven't really processed or dealt with,
(27:47):
then that's the point at which as a coach, I'm
going to suggest that they seek out therapy.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Now, just to finish this that a little bit more fully.
You already introduced how a secure leader shows up whether
there be neighbors, But let's just go ahead and expand
on that a little bit.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Since we really did.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
You did a great job of really helping to bring
to life the anxious and the avoidant and speaking that
more about how the leader shows shows up as a
secure leader. What kindsic behaviors are we seeing what's what's more,
what's maybe more natural for them.
Speaker 6 (28:16):
There, Yeah, secure leaders, I they're able to really they
they recognize their own blind spots. I think that's maybe
they don't see all their blind spots, but they know
they have them. But they're not afraid of those blind spots.
(28:40):
And they see that as just part of the human condition. Right,
we all have blind spots. And so because of that,
that doesn't mean if they have blind spots or they
make mistakes, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with
me or that I'm not a good person.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
They still see themselves as a good person.
Speaker 6 (28:57):
And they are then able to hear that feedback when
it comes from their leader or from a peer, or
even maybe from a direct report, and they're not They
can hear that without defensiveness. They can listen with curiosity
and be open to different perspectives. As they're getting feedback
(29:17):
about their own leadership and what they're doing in the workplace,
as well as about just their ideas and the work
that's being done. They're open to that feedback, and they
create those teams where feedback is openly shared and everyone
is sharing their perspective and no one's afraid to make
mistakes because it's psychologically safe, and they know if they
make a mistake, it's okay because the leader is going
(29:40):
to be the first one to admit I made a mistake,
I failed here, and this is what I did, but
this is what I'm learning from it. So they very
quickly admit when they've made mistakes, and so they're truly
collaborative in the way that they go about leading their teams,
and they're not territorial again, because they don't feel threatened
(30:00):
by other people who are excellent, right. I think so
many leaders feel threatened by team members who are really talented,
but then they try to kind of grasp at what
they see is their own territory to maintain their own
sense of worth and purpose and secure. Leaders don't hold
(30:23):
on tightly to those things. They welcome the expertise and
the excellence of other people and see that as helping
all of us get better instead of feeling threatened by it.
And they're really able to in terms of connecting with
other people. They are very attuned in terms of being empathetic,
(30:44):
so they are able to sit with discomfort with ambiguity.
They don't feel threatened by it or need to fix everything.
They're okay sitting with that and holding space even for
their teams to be in those places as well.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Beautifully explained, and that really does help really open up
what does that look like? And what who might and
how might I grow into something more than I am today?
And so I think that's a beautiful beckoning for all
of us. Let's grab our last break. I'm your host,
Doctor Ordie's Cortez. We've been on the air of doctor
Jamie Goff. She's the founder of The Empathic Leader, where
she specializes in helping leaders unlock their full potential through
(31:24):
executive coaching, insightful workshops, and thought provoking keynotes. We've been
talking a bit about and really going into detail into
the attachment science and the styles that we all tend
to adopt, and then talking about how that manifests into
our leadership behaviors and effectiveness.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
After the break, we're going to talk about how we
can start.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
To rewire or rewrite excuse me, rewrite our leadership stories.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Will be right back.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(32:25):
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise
ALISEE at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Thankteresting with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose.
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you know by now,
this program is dedicated to empowering and inspiring you along
your journey to realize more of your potential. If you
will learn more about how we can work together and
learn how the Gusto Now Academy for leaders and individuals
on various journeys alike. You can make your way to
Gusto dashnow dot com and then go to the training
(33:16):
tab to find the academy. If you are just now
joining us, My guest is doctor Jamie Goff, she's the
author of The Secure Leader, discover the hidden forces that
shape your leadership story.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
And how to change them.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
So for this next bit here, now, I think we've
helped our listeners and viewers get and some idea of
maybe where they might fall in these different styles and
become a little bit more aware of their behaviors and such.
Now let's talk about how they can start to rewrite
their leadership story. So one of the things that you
talk about in your book is the importance of learning
how to navigate from being reactive to regulate it.
Speaker 5 (33:48):
Can we start there?
Speaker 4 (33:50):
Yeah? Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (33:52):
So when I'm talking about moving from reactive to regulated,
it's really about emotional regulation self regulation, and that begins
with emotional awareness, so becoming attuned to ourselves and our
own emotional experience. I think a lot of people don't
(34:12):
have a very sophisticated emotional vocabulary, so they can be like,
oh I'm mad, sad, glad, but really understanding the nuance
of our emotional experience and being able to slow down
right our amygdala kind of brainstem responses to things that
(34:34):
appear to be threatening in the environment. Being able to
slow down and really analyze what's happening, so that when
we move into action, we're doing something that is proactive
instead of simply reacting to what we're experiencing. And so
it's all about, you know, regulation is all about regulating ourselves,
(34:55):
you know, and that can be through a number of
different exercises, like learning how to regulate yourself physiologically, so
through deep breathing or just pausing.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Before you speak or before you act.
Speaker 6 (35:08):
In certain situations so that you can show up in
the way that you want to.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
And that takes a lot of practice.
Speaker 6 (35:16):
If you are someone who is highly reactive, and you
can react in one of two ways. You can become
hyper aroused, so you can fly off the handle right
and like everyone knows exactly how you're feeling, and you
might be yelling at slamming doors or whatever that might
look like. Or you can become hypo aroused, which is
the other end, which is the silent treatment. I'm going
(35:36):
to withdraw from you. I'm not going to speak from you.
Both are demonstrations of reactivity, and so how do we
manage that more effectively not engage in those reactive behaviors,
but instead make proactive choices about how we want to
show up in relationship to other people.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I also appreciated how you say that emotional suppression really
can hurt us, stuffing our feelings, et cetera. And I
certainly have discovered in my own experience of working with
organizations and their people that so many people have gotten
to a place in life where they've just learned that
they can't share how they feel, and so they just
(36:14):
stuff those feelings. And so of course, part of what
I'm out to do when I'm helped I'm working with
organizations is I'm trying to help open that emotional spectrum
of experience, of understanding and expression in a healthy way,
so people, to your point, have a greater vocabulary for
their emotions and they can experience joint you know. And
(36:35):
then I'm also understanding be able to articulate why something
really bothered them and hurt them. It's just so so important,
And so I really wanted to call that out because
I certainly have found that that emotional suppression piece lives
strongly in.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
A lot of organizations.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
It's not healthy, Yeah, it absolutely does.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
And I think that when we're thinking about attachment styles,
those of.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Us like you and I have talked about we both
kind of.
Speaker 6 (37:00):
All in this camp, those of us who do maybe
lean a little bit more toward that avoidant attachment style,
we're particularly we're more likely to engage in emotional suppression,
So we have to be really careful about that. I
have to be attentive to that because that is my default.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
I definitely can say in my own journey, I can
go back when I was married this, you know, I
can remember I wasn't nearly as well able to understand
and to express and live in my emotions. And I
have done a lot of work over the years to
help develop that capacity. And it's such a different place
(37:42):
to live in when you develop that capacity. So I
and that's another thing that I really want to echo
on our conversation Jamie to our listeners and viewers, is
this is about the inviting you to grow, right this,
You're not stuck with wherever wherever you are, and like
you can grow, you can change a couragious Yeah. The
second one of the other parts about rewriting writing that
(38:04):
I wanted to talk about was moving.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
From disconnection to connection. If we can go there next.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
Yeah, you know, I think in order to become more secure,
you can't do that in isolation.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
You can't, it's not positable.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
You can only become more secure in your style through
relationship with other people. Because to be secure, you have
to feel like others see worth in you and let
you're valued, right, And so being secure requires it's a paradox.
It's this tension between risk and safety.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Right.
Speaker 6 (38:40):
We want to feel safe in our relationships, but in
order to really be safe, we have to be willing
to take risks to let people see who we are
and to hear how we're feeling and what we're experienced
to see us be.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Vulnerable, right. And so that's the tension.
Speaker 6 (38:56):
And I think even as leaders in the workplace, we
have the opportunity to kind of provide that environment for
our teams where they can experience both safety and risk.
And that's honestly, that excites me, and that feels like
such a privilege as a leader to have the opportunity
(39:17):
to provide that environment. But it takes work to get
skilled in doing that, and so there are some things
that I talk about that will help people to do that.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
Leaders do that more effectively. I love that you.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Called out the example from the movie inside Out. I
watched that movie. I was doing some work in India
for one of my clients, and I watched that movie
on their way back. Somebody told me, some young person
told me that I should see it, and I thought, well,
I have time.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
I've got all these hours on the plane. I'm going
to watch it.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
And I like how you situate it. You know, this
is a for those of you who haven't seen it,
listeners and viewers. It's really a beautiful cartoon movie, right,
and it features different different characters that really are being
an ex brushing up different emotions. And so you have
one character that's joy, another character that's sadness, and you
have this central character named bing Bong that has lost
(40:09):
something important to him, and the Sadness and Joy go
about trying to help him in very different ways. Can
you kind of explicate what happens and how what comes
out of that learning and the inside out of that Yeah.
Speaker 6 (40:22):
So yeah, So bing Bong loses something that's important to
him and as a result, he's very you know, he's
very sad and upset and grieving that loss. And so Joy,
the character that represents the emotion of joy, you know,
comes over and she's trying to cheer him up. Immediately right, like,
look at this funny face I'm making bing Bong, or
let me be a tickle monster and try to make
(40:44):
you laugh. And he's just getting deeper into his grief
and sadness as she's doing that, and she can't get
him out of that, right, she's trying to solve the
problemse she's trying to take the grief and the sadness
away from him. The other character, Sadness, who represent you know,
represents the emotion. Sadness comes over and sits down beside
(41:06):
being Bong and just says something along the lines of, oh,
you lost your wagon, you must be really sad, and
then he goes on to share like, yes, I'm so sad.
This is what you know, I was hoping to do
with that thing that I lost, and she, you know again,
continues just to validate him and empathize with him, and
(41:27):
the whole time Joy the other characters over here saying, Sadness,
what are you doing.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
You're going to make it worse.
Speaker 6 (41:32):
Right, we have this goal, we have this place we
have to be, and we need to get a move on,
and Sadness just sits there, you know with bing Bong,
lets him experience his grief, doesn't try to solve the
problem for him at all, and after a moment or two,
he's like Okay, he cries, and he's like, okay, I'm ready,
now let's go. You know, we need to go this
(41:55):
way to meet our goal. And you know, I've been
showing that in the workshops that I've been doing on
the book too, and I talk with leaders like, what's.
Speaker 5 (42:04):
Your reaction to that?
Speaker 6 (42:06):
And I think so many times leaders are like, I
don't have time for that.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
I don't have time for empathy.
Speaker 6 (42:12):
I don't have time to give people the space to
feel their feelings or you know, to kind of let
them sit in that for a moment. And I'm also
my question to them as always, well, but what happens
if you approach it like joy, that person's going to
dig their heels in. They're going to want to stay
(42:34):
in that negativity, that you know, that difficult emotional experience
for a longer time because they don't feel heard, they
don't feel seen, they don't feel validated. And it takes
just a couple moments most of the time to provide
that validation and that empathy and to help someone feel
seen and understood.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
And then you know.
Speaker 6 (42:56):
They get unstuck, right, They're able to process what's happened
and move on on toward the goal or the metric
or whatever the project is that they're working on in
the workplace. So I think there's just so much power
and yeah, and you have to really be a secure
leader to be able to sit in that and not
feel like you have to fix it.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Yeah. Yeah, so beautiful. And I remember watching it and
Joy says, sadness, how did you do that? And she goes,
I don't know, I just said, and I was with them.
I listened to him. Yeah, And I really want to
quote what you just said about, you know, allowing your
people to feel their emotions. I had doctor Nahasango on
my podcast many years ago, and she describes energy emotions
(43:35):
as energy in motion. They must be moved through our
bodies and they carry valuable data, so you understand what
they're trying to tell us and how they're how they're
helping us experience. And so I really appreciate what you
were saying. And I love what you're doing at the
empathic leader, Jamie. It's so important and to be your championship.
You're a cheerleader for this. I do similar work, So
(43:56):
I'm not quite not on the depth level that you're using,
and not through the tools you're using.
Speaker 4 (44:00):
So it's beautiful, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
So we're coming closer, and I want to get a
couple of these. You talk about a few domains of
integration that I think are I was really compelled. I
took a lot of notes on all of the stuff.
We won't have time to go through even just a
few of them. But first, what do you mean by
domains of integration? Why are they useful? And then we'll
talk about a couple examples.
Speaker 6 (44:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think integration. And when I say integration,
I'm really talking about kind of integration of self and
how you understand yourself kind of on a global perspective,
And integration is really an outcome.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
So if you work to become.
Speaker 6 (44:35):
More regulated emotionally and if you're able to have deep
connections with other people, then integration is often an outcome
of that, and there are different areas of integration. And
so really it's about how do we make sense of
our story and our identity as a whole, taking all
(44:59):
of our experiences into account, not you know, not like
you know, painting things with rainbows and butterflies that weren't good,
but also not allowing those things to hold us back,
but to integrate them in terms of what we've learned
and how we've come to make meaning of the things
that have happened in our lives. And so that, on
(45:20):
a kind of a high level, is what integration is
really about. It's about meaning making and having an integrated
sense of yourself.
Speaker 5 (45:29):
Awesome.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Okay, So there's several that you talk about here. I
don't know if there are any favorites that you want
to share.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 6 (45:37):
One of the areas is we talk about brain integration
specifically and so kind of bilaterally in your brain. So
right brain, left brain. And you know, it's not accurate
to say, oh, I'm right brained or oh I'm left brained.
Speaker 5 (45:52):
Science is really both sides.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
Yeah, right, science has really bunked that.
Speaker 6 (45:56):
Right. But people who are have a care attachment and
who are more integrated, they're right and left hemispheres of
their brain work together better, right they you know, so
they're more attuned, you know, to each other. So you know,
the right brain as it takes in sensory information, and
(46:17):
you know, really kind of is the emotional antenna, if
you will, of what's going on, and then the left
brain around meaning making and language and kind of linear thinking,
helps to make sense of what the right brain is experiencing.
And so they're working very well together. And so you
can see how that also relates to regulation, right because
if you're you know, if you're have that bilateral integration,
(46:41):
you're going to be more regulated emotionally as well. And
you can also think about brain integration as being top
down or bottom up, so like from your brain stem
up to your prefrontal cortex. That again, instead of your
like brain stem controlling what you do all the time
or you're amygdala, you can slow down that process and
integrate it with what your prefrontal cortex is able to
(47:03):
do in terms of sense making and more kind of
rational thought.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Amazing, and there's so much in there to listeners of yours,
several others that she talks about as well.
Speaker 5 (47:13):
They are really intriguing.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
I do want to finish the show with our final
little bit of hope about maintaining our new leadership story
since we've rewritten it, we've discovered it and we've rewritten it.
And you talk about doctor Barbara fre Frederickson's work and
the centrality of positive psychology and positive emotions. Can you
kind of bring us home here, say in about a minute,
with how we can maintain our new leadership story.
Speaker 4 (47:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (47:38):
Essentially, positive emotion is incredibly powerful, and you can create
opportunities to experience positive emotion. And so positive emotion is
protective in terms of our health and our well being.
It's also beneficial in a team or in a business context,
(47:59):
and there's some research around that. And so you can
generate experiences where you have positive emotion. There are certain
things that you can do build into your everyday rituals
and routines so that you're building that into your life,
and the more positive emotion you experience, that helps you
to live into a more secure attachment story. So I
(48:20):
think just you know, talking about the power of positive
emotion and really finding ways.
Speaker 4 (48:25):
To cultivate that, not waiting.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
You know, I think sometimes we think we have to
sit back and wait to experience emotion, and that's not
necessarily true. When it comes to positive emotion. We can
cultivate it.
Speaker 5 (48:38):
And go looking forward.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
So really sure that's gratitude and joy, gratitude, those things.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Yeah, savoring the moment you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (48:47):
I love how you heard about savoring. So here we are.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
We come to the enother show already. It goes by
so fast. Don't say Goff. It is a delight to
know you, to count it as a friend, as a colleague.
Thank you for writing this beautiful book, for coming on
working and purpose to talk about it.
Speaker 5 (49:00):
You are a gem.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
Thank you, Thank you, Lise.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
Listeners and viewers, you are going to want to learn
more about doctor Jamie Goff, the work she does at
The Empathic Leader, helping leaders unlock your full potential, and
her new book, The Secure Leader. You can start by
visiting her website. It's doctor Jamie Gooff dot com. Let
me spell that for you, so it's d R ja
im g o f F doctor Jamie dot com, Doctor
(49:26):
Jamiegoff dot com. You can also find her on LinkedIn
to by the way, pretty easily. Last week you missed
the live show, you can always catch it via recorded podcast.
We were on here with James talking about his new
book The Archetype Effect, Unlocking six types of motivation at work.
He helped us understand how differently people are motivated and
the opportunity organizations have to examine their reward systems to
(49:46):
encourage their full team to bring their best. Next week
will be on the air with Roderick Jefferson talking about
his spectacular journey as a stroke survivor and building his
strength further as a speaker and a coach. See you then,
and together, let's lean in and learn how to create
destination workplaces where people thrive while doing business in a
way that betters the world.
Speaker 5 (50:05):
Let's Work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicitor implies shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio
or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should
be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing
(00:21):
W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has
there brought to you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteen. As for tuning again this week. Great
to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elis Cortes. If
we've not met before, you don't know me. I am
a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapists, speaker
and author. My team and I at Gusto Now help
companies enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,
(01:27):
high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nurturing managers activated by
meaning and purpose. And did you know that inspired employees
in purpose that organizations outperform their satisfied peers by a
factor of two point twenty five to one. In other words,
inspiration is good for the bottom line. You can learn
more about us and how we can work together at
Gusto dashnow dot com and my personal site, Elis Coortes
(01:49):
dot com. Getting into today's program, we have doctor Jamie Goff,
the founder of The Empathic Leader, where she specializes in
helping leaders unlock their full potential through executive coaching, insightful workshops,
and thought provoking keynotes. She also serves as the director
of leadership Development for an international health care system, where
she designs and leads innovative programs that inspire leaders to thrive.
(02:11):
Her career began in higher education as a professor of
couple and family therapy and later as an academic dean.
She's the author of The Secure Leader, Discover the Hidden
Forces that shape your Leadership story and how to change them.
We'll be talking about her research and expertise in relational
attachment styles and how they're manifesting leadership effectiveness. She judged
today from Dallas. Jamie, A hearty welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Thank you, e Lise, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Very welcome, and let's celebrate this beautiful thing you brought
into the world. It's gorgeous and I want to say
a couple things about it. One, it's really a unique
take on leadership. As I mentioned before we got on air,
we cover a lot of topics around leadership, but this
is really a unique, specific take that really you are
uniquely qualified to talk about. And I also want to
(02:59):
congratulate you on creating a very cogently written that hangs
together tight. I love the examples. Just really well done, Jamie.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Thank you. That means so much to me at least.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, you're welcome and we were talking before we got
on air. I remember when we met more than a
year ago in Mexican Sugar and this was, you know,
a dream of viewers.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
You were working on making it happen.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
And I said, right then and there, well, when you
get a done, sister, you've got to come on my
podcast to talk about it.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
And here we are.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Here we are, and you've been such a great supporter
along the entire journey. So I'm deeply grateful.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
You're welcome, and you know we need to do that
for each other, right, we all need encouragement and support,
especially when we're going for our dreams.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Absolutely, Well, I want to situate for our listeners and
viewers who don't know you as well as I do.
I think you're the fact that you have a background
first in academia and physically and mental health, and then
as you know your work today as an executive development
and coach and corporate healthcare and other organizations. It's really
quite unique that you have both of those backgrounds. So
(03:59):
if you just sort of situate how you got into
those fields and how maybe they complement each other.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 6 (04:07):
So you know, like many college students, you're just kind
of choosing a major that sounds interesting. So you know,
when I was in college, of course, I majored in psychology,
and then did my graduate in PhD work specifically in
couple in family therapy, and I first began getting into
the attachment sciences. Actually, when I was a PhD student,
(04:30):
I did some work on a research team where we
were working to reunify mothers, very young mothers, most of
them with their infants, who had been removed from the
home due to primarily neglect.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
And I was a.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
Therapist on that team, and I was working with these
young mothers to teach them how to form secure attachments
with their babies, and all of these babies were under
two years of age, helping them to be attuned, to
be able to read their child's responses so that they
could build secure attachment relationships with them, setting them up
(05:07):
for future success when they were eventually reunified. Then, later
on in my career as a couple of family therapists,
I actually decided to specialize in couples therapy and I
became trained in some attachment based couple relational approaches to therapy.
(05:27):
So looking at kind of some of those same dynamics
around attunement and responsiveness to one another in relationships and
how that plays out in couple relationships. And then when
I found myself in my very first leadership role, I
started thinking about how.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Some of these same dynamics.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
As I was observing relationships between leaders and their followers
and also thinking about myself as a leader, I realized
that a lot of the same dynamics were present in
those relationships as well. And so that's when I first
became interested in really exploring how the attachment sciences might
inform how we show up as leaders in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
That is beautiful, What a stunning narration of the steps
along the way that got to where you are today.
You have a lot of great data in your book,
and a lot of the stories are very relatable. And
one of the things I want to call to here
is just the opportunity here which is also disguised as
a problem. And you talk about how your two examples
(06:31):
in your book are are Joanna and David, but you
really talk a lot about how when a recent survey
showed that seventy five percent of workers said that the
most stressful aspect of their job was their immediate boss,
and fifty six claimed their boss was mildly or highly toxic.
So that's why this stuff is so important. Then I
(06:52):
can tell you and I know you can relate to
this is I so badly want to reach and help
more leaders, and so many of them are resistant to
don't really think they need help, but these numbers say otherwise.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Yeah, they absolutely do.
Speaker 6 (07:04):
And that you know, that research comes from McKinsey, of course,
who you know, they're looking at huge populations of leaders
and employees when they when they collect this data and
do this research. So this isn't yeah, this isn't an anomaly.
This this really represents a large population. And uh, you know,
we've all you know, or probably many of us have
(07:25):
seen the research that points to the impact that leaders
have on you know, their employees' mental health, they're just
their overall general well being. And so leaders are incredibly
important in the lives of the people that report to them.
And on top of that, of course, we do spend
most of our time, most of our waking hours at
(07:46):
work in the workplace, right, and so it it can
either be you know, the workplace can either be a
place where you know, we can flourish and feel fulfilled
and have purpose as you like to talk about, or
in this situation, when you know, bosses are seen as
stressful and toxic, they often really drain us and can
(08:10):
take away from our flourishing and hurt us in some ways.
And so to me, that is just so important to
really look at how we can make our workplaces better.
And I do believe it all starts with leadership.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I completely agree, and I completely also agree the huge
impact we can make negatively and positively in people's lives.
So I love your three part formula that you put
in your books. That's part of what I'm speaking of,
how tightly written your book is. And so step one
of your three part formula involves deconstructing our leadership story.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
And I really like how you.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Talk about how to understand the development of our left
and right brains, et cetera. So if you could talk
a little bit about this first step of deconstructing our
leadership story.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
Yeah, you know, I really believe that in order to
kind moved forward, we need to take time to look back,
and that that really this really is about self awareness
and honestly looking at our previous like life experiences, honestly
looking at you know, our childhoods and what we experience,
(09:16):
not not for the purpose of blaming you know, our
parents or you know, trying to find scapegoats for you know,
some of the challenges we might face in our adult lives,
but just for the purpose of self awareness and really understanding,
because I think that awareness helps us to identify where
we need to maybe make some changes. And so deconstructing
(09:38):
our stories is all about looking back at our past
and really trying to understand where some of our patterns
of behavior, especially in leadership for this book, come from,
Like why do we show up the way that we
do as leaders? How did we develop some of these
patterns that we might engage in. Why is it so
(09:59):
challenging for us to delegate or why do we feel
like we always need to be the fun boss? So
really understanding where those dynamics come from, I think is
the first step. And as we look back, you know,
there are likely things in our past and in our past,
you know, our stories as they've developed over time. There
are some themes that we want to keep because they're
(10:20):
valuable and they've served us well and continue to serve
us well. But oftentimes when we look back, what we
can see is that there are some elements of our stories,
of our behaviors and patterns that aren't serving us well anymore,
and so the decision may need to be made to
rewrite that, to do something different, and to change that
part of our lives. Some might need just a little
(10:41):
bit of revision, some might need, you know, complete rewriting.
Speaker 5 (10:46):
Let's just start over.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Well.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
One of the reasons that I co wrote my latest
book it's called The Power of Soulful Healing with the
clinical psychologist Jamie is because the premise is is that
every single one of us are walking humans, every one
of us. It's just it's tender, this thing called life.
And so the more aware we become of how we're
wounded and where we're hurt and what we're doing to
(11:10):
try to heal that, the more effective we are in life,
the better our relationships ECCEA and we all have to
do that work.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yep, absolutely absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I had the first time that I've understood the attachment sciences.
I was dating somebody in twenty twenty and I just
couldn't understand him, and I also wanted to better understand
my daughter as well. So that's how I started learning
about the attachment sciences and came to understand secure, anxious,
and avoidant attachment styles. Can you introduce, excuse me, each
(11:42):
of those for our listeners and viewers.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
Yeah, absolutely, And I do want to mention if anyone
listening you know also has maybe some expertise and attachment sciences.
There is a fourth style, which is disorganized or ambivalent,
depending on if you're looking at children adults. So I
don't really address in the book simply because it's linked
(12:05):
to more severe trauma, and so in speaking about not
that leaders there aren't leaders who don't have severe trauma
in their lives, but especially when it comes to coaching
and looking at leadership in the workplace, I think the
space for that is in psychotherapy, and so I don't
really deal with that piece. But the three major attachment
(12:26):
styles that I do speak about in the book, the
first being secure, and this is the attachment style we
tend to develop when we have what I call good
enough parents. Right, no parents are perfect, but when our
parents are caregivers, maybe they're not parents, but when our
caregivers are generally consistent in the way that they respond
(12:50):
to our needs, especially during those first eighteen months of
our lives. When we feel like we can count on
them to be there when we're hungry, or when we're tired,
or when we're afraid, then we develop security. We develop
the belief that other people are trustworthy and they're going
to be there for us when.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
We need them.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
And we also begin to develop the belief that we're worthy.
Right if someone is taking the time to care for
me and love me and treat me with dignity, even
as a very young person, then I begin to see
myself as having just worth because I'm a human being,
And so that generates a sense of competence and confidence
(13:31):
in the way that we move about the world.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
So that's secure.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
And then in adulthood, obviously, those that have that secure
attachment style, they're able to form more healthy relationships that
have a good balance of both independence and dependence. Right,
there's that interdependence like I know who I am, I
know who you are, but we're there for each other
and we're very deeply connected to one another. And they
(13:58):
also are able to set good bounceies too, because they
recognize that they don't have to take on everybody else's
feelings or everyone else's problems. That they can see the
boundary between themselves and others, and as leaders, then these
people are the ones who are you open to feedback
from anywhere you know in the organization. They can admit
(14:20):
their mistakes. They are able to coach and develop their
teams because they want to lift other people up, and
they're not threatened by the success of other people on
their teams, and they create those environments of psychological safety
and flourishing.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
So that those are secure leaders.
Speaker 6 (14:41):
The second style anxious attachment. Insecure anxious. Oftentimes these individuals
when they're very young, they're in caregiving environments that are
chaotic and inconsistent, and so many times this has been
linked to like alcoholism or some kind of substance abuse
(15:05):
in the home. This can be a common kind of
outcome in that type of situation where sometimes a parent
responds or a caregiver response to my needs, sometimes they don't,
and it's very confusing and I can't identify what makes
the difference, and.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
So many times what that leads to in terms of behavior.
Speaker 6 (15:24):
These are often the children who will throw the very
severe temper tantrums because they're just trying to do whatever
they can to get what they need from their caregivers
and they know that sometimes they respond, so they kind
of up the ante and trying to get that attention
in the care that they need from their caregivers. And
(15:44):
so what these individuals learned through those interactions, they typically
begin to think that there's something They come to believe
that there's something wrong with themselves. There's something wrong with
me because I can't get this person to consistently care
for me. What am I doing wrong when they don't?
And then they also have trouble trusting because there is
(16:05):
so much inconsistency. So in adulthood there drives.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Let me let me stop you the writer the jeners
real quick, because I really want to drill into that
as well. Yeah, since it's time for a break, what
I want to do is after we come back from
the break, I'll ask you to situate the avoidance style
and then I want to dive more deeply into how
those two show up in leadership. You do that through
David and Joanna, and that will help our listeners and
viewers kind of hang on to it. But let's wrap
(16:30):
our first break. Absolutely the host doctor Lea's Cortes, who
run on the year of doctor Jamie Goff the founder
of The Empathic Leader, where she specializes in helping leaders
unlock their full potential through executive coaching, insight for workshops,
and thought provoking keynotes. We've been talking a bit about
how her initial work in attachment science and then executive
(16:51):
coaching has come together, and we're also learning now about
the different styles of attachment how they show up in
our early life. After the work, we're going to talk
more in depth about how those attachment styles and that
science shows up and manifesting leadership.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(17:42):
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise Alisee at Eliscortes dot com now back to Working
(18:06):
on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I am your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as
I too, am dedicated to helping create a world or
organizations thrive because there are people thrive, but they're led
by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness.
And we do business at Betters the World. I keep
researching and writing my own books. So one of my
latest came out called The Great Revitalization, How activating meaning
(18:33):
and purpose can radically in liven your business. And I
wrote it to help leaders and readers understand the dynamics
of today is very diverse and discerning workforce. What do
they want from you and what do they would be
like for you to supply in terms of culture and leadership?
And then I give you twenty two best practices to equip.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
You to provide that for them.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
You can find my books on Amazon or any other
booksellers as well as Elitecortes dot com if you are
just joining us now. My guest is doctor Jamiekoff. She's
the author of The Secure Leader Discovered the Hidden Forces
that shape your leadership story.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
And how to change them.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
So before the break, you were just starting to introduce
us to the insecure, anxious, dominant attachment style or approach,
and you were sharing a bit about where they came
from from our childhoods and such a beginning to start
to talk about how it shows up in our adult behavior.
If you could carry that on, and then I don't
know if you want to talk about the other attachment
(19:26):
style first, or if you want to go over and
talk about Joanna and David as examples.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
Yeah, and so for we can maybe kind of continue
on the anxious attachment style. And in the book, I
kind of speak about David, a coaching client, as an
example of someone with an anxious attachment style who's in.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
A leadership role.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
And one of the dynamics that I noticed in David's
leadership is as we were working together, is that David
had a really different cult time giving feedback. And this
was primarily because David wanted to be liked and validated
and he wanted to belong above everything else. That was
(20:13):
his primary driving need, and so that made it difficult
for him to give feedback to individual team members because
he was afraid that if he did so, they wouldn't
like him, they would leave the team, they wouldn't be
as committed to the project. And so what ended up
happening is that he punished the whole team essentially right
because he didn't know how else to manage this underperforming
(20:38):
team member in a one on one way, and so
he would use kind of passive aggressive ways to deal
with the problem of one person. And so we really
had to dig into, like where did his fear of
giving feedback come from? And that's when we discovered it
came from that need he had to be liked and validated.
He didn't really feel like he had much to offer,
(20:59):
and so he was felt feeling really desperate to keep everybody.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
On the team happy, and that ended up backfiring on him.
Speaker 6 (21:07):
And so we were able to work together to get
himTo a place where he kind of worked through some
of those beliefs and challenged some of those driving needs
for himself and was able to get to a place
where he could give feedback and see the benefits of that.
But he was operating out of that insecure anxious attachment style.
(21:30):
And then the third style is the insecure avoidant attachment style.
And this style develops when we have caregivers in our
early childhood who basically are dismissive. They really don't pay
much attention to us at all. So essentially we developed
the belief that I have to do it on my own.
(21:51):
I can't count on anybody else. I'm the only person
I can count on. I have to take care of
my own needs, and so in leadership in the book,
I use the example of Joeyanna, who was a high
individual high performing individual contributor, which is often the case
among those who have avoidant styles, but when they move
(22:14):
into leadership roles, they really struggle because they have a
hard time delegating because they believe they're the only.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Ones that can do it and can do it right.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
They have a hard time delegating and coaching other people
growing their teams, and oftentimes they prefer to work alone,
so they don't really want to be bothered with other people,
and they see often can see other people as being
a nuisance or as holding them back, and so there
can be a lot of disengagement with the team, and
so teams are left, you know, wondering, how how can
(22:46):
I grow? I'm not allowed to do anything or I'm
really micromanaged in the way I'm trying to do things,
and I'm never able to put my own mark on
my work.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
And so those are some of the dynamics you end
up seeing in leadership.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Well explained it now, listeners and viewers, as you were
listening to that, I really want you to consider which
of those styles maybe might speak to you. I can
tell you when I read this, I realized I fall
into the insecure avoidant group.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
I can totally.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Recognize that, and that is just quite there, just break
there recognizing this can really help. Yeah, you know, there
are probably times when I can be more secure, but
that would be my default style. And so you go
on to say that it's important to recognize that even
those secure adults may have tendencies toward anxious or avoidant
relationship behaviors when they're under stress or when they feel
(23:39):
vulnerable and threatened. As you talk about one of your
mentors in the book where she caught you were caught
off guard by her response and was totally unexpected, and
she came back later and apologized, just something a secure
leader can do when they recognize their behavior. Wasn't that
what they wanted? And what was destroying relationships and results.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Absolutely, and that's repair. Right.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
So, secure leaders make mistakes. It's not that they don't
make mistakes, so they don't miscues, but they are able
to recognize those mistakes more quickly and then repair any
ruptures that result.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, and this is just so so powerful, and I
think the examples you gave with the behaviors that we
see with leaders help will help both individuals listening to
those for our leaders going oh, well that's me, I
recognize me, and I'm also what I've got which was
so beautiful about your book, Jamie, is your impact your
empathy saying, hey, if you're starting to recognize yourself in
these pages, you might be uncomfortable. Great, that's step one.
(24:38):
You know you're realizing this, and that's I think that's
really powerful.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
Yeah, And I mean a lot of this came out
like from my own experience too. Like you, I recognize
that I have avoidant tendencies, especially when I'm overwhelmed and
I'm under stressed. And as I you know, looked honestly
back on my own experiences growing up up, you know,
I could see where where those patterns developed, why I
(25:05):
developed in that way. But then I could also see
how some of that wasn't serving me well anymore. And
I've been sharing the story of actually an administrative assistant
who sat me down and said, Jamie, you have got
to let me do my job because I was so
controlling and I would not.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Give her.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
I wouldn't I wouldn't empower her, you know, to do
the work that she was hired to do, because I
wanted to be in control and I thought I was
the only one who could do it. So I have
learned plenty of my own lessons through all of this.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Well, and that's the beautiful thing and right so, I
don't think either one is what we do in the
work that we're doing if we didn't believe that we
humans can grow throughout the course of our lives, and
now neuropusticity tells us that's true.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
We can. And so one of the things I.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Love about the title of your book is that it's
the subtitle is discovered the hidden forces that shape your
leadership story and how to change them.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
You're not stuck with it. You can grow past this.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
And you know, we both have coached people over the years,
and we can see how their style starts to you know,
really negatively impact their home relationship, which comes with them
to work. And when we help and we work with them,
we can recognize how everything in life gets better because
they've learned a better response style. And that's one of
the things you talk about too in your book, is
(26:23):
is how to.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Develop a better response style.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
But first, you know, being able to recognize this in
yourself and having somebody that you can work with. And
you do make a very strong point in your book
about you know this, some of these things you're dealing
with might mean that you probably want to work with
a therapist. That's not what this book is about. So distinguishing.
And I didn't know about that fourth style by.
Speaker 6 (26:43):
The way, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, because you know,
obviously I want to maintain the ethical boundaries around like
coaching versus psychotherapy and the types of things we talk about.
So when I'm talking with these themes, you know, with
my coaching clients, you know, I'm not down with them
and doing a family history like tell me all about
your you know, about your family like I would if
(27:06):
I were a therapist. Maybe, But when those patterns of
behavior are kind of coming to the surface and I'm
hearing them talk about some of the things that they're
struggling with. I often want just ask the question, well,
where do you think that comes from? And that's where
we start, and that opens the door and then they
might start to explore I'm not you know, I'm not
really sure. I wonder where it does come from. And
(27:26):
so then we can kind of talk about, as you
look back on your life, what are some experiences that
you've had that might inform how you're showing up in
this way. But then if it gets into where they're
noting or even mentioning to me, you know, again, potentially
significant trauma that they haven't really processed or dealt with,
(27:47):
then that's the point at which as a coach, I'm
going to suggest that they seek out therapy.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Now, just to finish this that a little bit more fully.
You already introduced how a secure leader shows up whether
there be neighbors, But let's just go ahead and expand
on that a little bit.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Since we really did.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
You did a great job of really helping to bring
to life the anxious and the avoidant and speaking that
more about how the leader shows shows up as a
secure leader. What kindsic behaviors are we seeing what's what's more,
what's maybe more natural for them.
Speaker 6 (28:16):
There, Yeah, secure leaders, I they're able to really they
they recognize their own blind spots. I think that's maybe
they don't see all their blind spots, but they know
they have them. But they're not afraid of those blind spots.
(28:40):
And they see that as just part of the human condition. Right,
we all have blind spots. And so because of that,
that doesn't mean if they have blind spots or they
make mistakes, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with
me or that I'm not a good person.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
They still see themselves as a good person.
Speaker 6 (28:57):
And they are then able to hear that feedback when
it comes from their leader or from a peer, or
even maybe from a direct report, and they're not They
can hear that without defensiveness. They can listen with curiosity
and be open to different perspectives. As they're getting feedback
(29:17):
about their own leadership and what they're doing in the workplace,
as well as about just their ideas and the work
that's being done. They're open to that feedback, and they
create those teams where feedback is openly shared and everyone
is sharing their perspective and no one's afraid to make
mistakes because it's psychologically safe, and they know if they
make a mistake, it's okay because the leader is going
(29:40):
to be the first one to admit I made a mistake,
I failed here, and this is what I did, but
this is what I'm learning from it. So they very
quickly admit when they've made mistakes, and so they're truly
collaborative in the way that they go about leading their teams,
and they're not territorial again, because they don't feel threatened
(30:00):
by other people who are excellent, right. I think so
many leaders feel threatened by team members who are really talented,
but then they try to kind of grasp at what
they see is their own territory to maintain their own
sense of worth and purpose and secure. Leaders don't hold
(30:23):
on tightly to those things. They welcome the expertise and
the excellence of other people and see that as helping
all of us get better instead of feeling threatened by it.
And they're really able to in terms of connecting with
other people. They are very attuned in terms of being empathetic,
(30:44):
so they are able to sit with discomfort with ambiguity.
They don't feel threatened by it or need to fix everything.
They're okay sitting with that and holding space even for
their teams to be in those places as well.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Beautifully explained, and that really does help really open up
what does that look like? And what who might and
how might I grow into something more than I am today?
And so I think that's a beautiful beckoning for all
of us. Let's grab our last break. I'm your host,
Doctor Ordie's Cortez. We've been on the air of doctor
Jamie Goff. She's the founder of The Empathic Leader, where
she specializes in helping leaders unlock their full potential through
(31:24):
executive coaching, insightful workshops, and thought provoking keynotes. We've been
talking a bit about and really going into detail into
the attachment science and the styles that we all tend
to adopt, and then talking about how that manifests into
our leadership behaviors and effectiveness.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
After the break, we're going to talk about how we
can start.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
To rewire or rewrite excuse me, rewrite our leadership stories.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Will be right back.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(32:25):
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise
ALISEE at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Thankteresting with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose.
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you know by now,
this program is dedicated to empowering and inspiring you along
your journey to realize more of your potential. If you
will learn more about how we can work together and
learn how the Gusto Now Academy for leaders and individuals
on various journeys alike. You can make your way to
Gusto dashnow dot com and then go to the training
(33:16):
tab to find the academy. If you are just now
joining us, My guest is doctor Jamie Goff, she's the
author of The Secure Leader, discover the hidden forces that
shape your leadership story.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
And how to change them.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
So for this next bit here, now, I think we've
helped our listeners and viewers get and some idea of
maybe where they might fall in these different styles and
become a little bit more aware of their behaviors and such.
Now let's talk about how they can start to rewrite
their leadership story. So one of the things that you
talk about in your book is the importance of learning
how to navigate from being reactive to regulate it.
Speaker 5 (33:48):
Can we start there?
Speaker 4 (33:50):
Yeah? Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (33:52):
So when I'm talking about moving from reactive to regulated,
it's really about emotional regulation self regulation, and that begins
with emotional awareness, so becoming attuned to ourselves and our
own emotional experience. I think a lot of people don't
(34:12):
have a very sophisticated emotional vocabulary, so they can be like,
oh I'm mad, sad, glad, but really understanding the nuance
of our emotional experience and being able to slow down
right our amygdala kind of brainstem responses to things that
(34:34):
appear to be threatening in the environment. Being able to
slow down and really analyze what's happening, so that when
we move into action, we're doing something that is proactive
instead of simply reacting to what we're experiencing. And so
it's all about, you know, regulation is all about regulating ourselves,
(34:55):
you know, and that can be through a number of
different exercises, like learning how to regulate yourself physiologically, so
through deep breathing or just pausing.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Before you speak or before you act.
Speaker 6 (35:08):
In certain situations so that you can show up in
the way that you want to.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
And that takes a lot of practice.
Speaker 6 (35:16):
If you are someone who is highly reactive, and you
can react in one of two ways. You can become
hyper aroused, so you can fly off the handle right
and like everyone knows exactly how you're feeling, and you
might be yelling at slamming doors or whatever that might
look like. Or you can become hypo aroused, which is
the other end, which is the silent treatment. I'm going
(35:36):
to withdraw from you. I'm not going to speak from you.
Both are demonstrations of reactivity, and so how do we
manage that more effectively not engage in those reactive behaviors,
but instead make proactive choices about how we want to
show up in relationship to other people.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I also appreciated how you say that emotional suppression really
can hurt us, stuffing our feelings, et cetera. And I
certainly have discovered in my own experience of working with
organizations and their people that so many people have gotten
to a place in life where they've just learned that
they can't share how they feel, and so they just
(36:14):
stuff those feelings. And so of course, part of what
I'm out to do when I'm helped I'm working with
organizations is I'm trying to help open that emotional spectrum
of experience, of understanding and expression in a healthy way,
so people, to your point, have a greater vocabulary for
their emotions and they can experience joint you know. And
(36:35):
then I'm also understanding be able to articulate why something
really bothered them and hurt them. It's just so so important,
And so I really wanted to call that out because
I certainly have found that that emotional suppression piece lives
strongly in.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
A lot of organizations.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
It's not healthy, Yeah, it absolutely does.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
And I think that when we're thinking about attachment styles,
those of.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Us like you and I have talked about we both
kind of.
Speaker 6 (37:00):
All in this camp, those of us who do maybe
lean a little bit more toward that avoidant attachment style,
we're particularly we're more likely to engage in emotional suppression,
So we have to be really careful about that. I
have to be attentive to that because that is my default.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
I definitely can say in my own journey, I can
go back when I was married this, you know, I
can remember I wasn't nearly as well able to understand
and to express and live in my emotions. And I
have done a lot of work over the years to
help develop that capacity. And it's such a different place
(37:42):
to live in when you develop that capacity. So I
and that's another thing that I really want to echo
on our conversation Jamie to our listeners and viewers, is
this is about the inviting you to grow, right this,
You're not stuck with wherever wherever you are, and like
you can grow, you can change a couragious Yeah. The
second one of the other parts about rewriting writing that
(38:04):
I wanted to talk about was moving.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
From disconnection to connection. If we can go there next.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
Yeah, you know, I think in order to become more secure,
you can't do that in isolation.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
You can't, it's not positable.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
You can only become more secure in your style through
relationship with other people. Because to be secure, you have
to feel like others see worth in you and let
you're valued, right, And so being secure requires it's a paradox.
It's this tension between risk and safety.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Right.
Speaker 6 (38:40):
We want to feel safe in our relationships, but in
order to really be safe, we have to be willing
to take risks to let people see who we are
and to hear how we're feeling and what we're experienced
to see us be.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Vulnerable, right. And so that's the tension.
Speaker 6 (38:56):
And I think even as leaders in the workplace, we
have the opportunity to kind of provide that environment for
our teams where they can experience both safety and risk.
And that's honestly, that excites me, and that feels like
such a privilege as a leader to have the opportunity
(39:17):
to provide that environment. But it takes work to get
skilled in doing that, and so there are some things
that I talk about that will help people to do that.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
Leaders do that more effectively. I love that you.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Called out the example from the movie inside Out. I
watched that movie. I was doing some work in India
for one of my clients, and I watched that movie
on their way back. Somebody told me, some young person
told me that I should see it, and I thought, well,
I have time.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
I've got all these hours on the plane. I'm going
to watch it.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
And I like how you situate it. You know, this
is a for those of you who haven't seen it,
listeners and viewers. It's really a beautiful cartoon movie, right,
and it features different different characters that really are being
an ex brushing up different emotions. And so you have
one character that's joy, another character that's sadness, and you
have this central character named bing Bong that has lost
(40:09):
something important to him, and the Sadness and Joy go
about trying to help him in very different ways. Can
you kind of explicate what happens and how what comes
out of that learning and the inside out of that Yeah.
Speaker 6 (40:22):
So yeah, So bing Bong loses something that's important to
him and as a result, he's very you know, he's
very sad and upset and grieving that loss. And so Joy,
the character that represents the emotion of joy, you know,
comes over and she's trying to cheer him up. Immediately right, like,
look at this funny face I'm making bing Bong, or
let me be a tickle monster and try to make
(40:44):
you laugh. And he's just getting deeper into his grief
and sadness as she's doing that, and she can't get
him out of that, right, she's trying to solve the
problemse she's trying to take the grief and the sadness
away from him. The other character, Sadness, who represent you know,
represents the emotion. Sadness comes over and sits down beside
(41:06):
being Bong and just says something along the lines of, oh,
you lost your wagon, you must be really sad, and
then he goes on to share like, yes, I'm so sad.
This is what you know, I was hoping to do
with that thing that I lost, and she, you know again,
continues just to validate him and empathize with him, and
(41:27):
the whole time Joy the other characters over here saying, Sadness,
what are you doing.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
You're going to make it worse.
Speaker 6 (41:32):
Right, we have this goal, we have this place we
have to be, and we need to get a move on,
and Sadness just sits there, you know with bing Bong,
lets him experience his grief, doesn't try to solve the
problem for him at all, and after a moment or two,
he's like Okay, he cries, and he's like, okay, I'm ready,
now let's go. You know, we need to go this
(41:55):
way to meet our goal. And you know, I've been
showing that in the workshops that I've been doing on
the book too, and I talk with leaders like, what's.
Speaker 5 (42:04):
Your reaction to that?
Speaker 6 (42:06):
And I think so many times leaders are like, I
don't have time for that.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
I don't have time for empathy.
Speaker 6 (42:12):
I don't have time to give people the space to
feel their feelings or you know, to kind of let
them sit in that for a moment. And I'm also
my question to them as always, well, but what happens
if you approach it like joy, that person's going to
dig their heels in. They're going to want to stay
(42:34):
in that negativity, that you know, that difficult emotional experience
for a longer time because they don't feel heard, they
don't feel seen, they don't feel validated. And it takes
just a couple moments most of the time to provide
that validation and that empathy and to help someone feel
seen and understood.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
And then you know.
Speaker 6 (42:56):
They get unstuck, right, They're able to process what's happened
and move on on toward the goal or the metric
or whatever the project is that they're working on in
the workplace. So I think there's just so much power
and yeah, and you have to really be a secure
leader to be able to sit in that and not
feel like you have to fix it.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Yeah. Yeah, so beautiful. And I remember watching it and
Joy says, sadness, how did you do that? And she goes,
I don't know, I just said, and I was with them.
I listened to him. Yeah, And I really want to
quote what you just said about, you know, allowing your
people to feel their emotions. I had doctor Nahasango on
my podcast many years ago, and she describes energy emotions
(43:35):
as energy in motion. They must be moved through our
bodies and they carry valuable data, so you understand what
they're trying to tell us and how they're how they're
helping us experience. And so I really appreciate what you
were saying. And I love what you're doing at the
empathic leader, Jamie. It's so important and to be your championship.
You're a cheerleader for this. I do similar work, So
(43:56):
I'm not quite not on the depth level that you're using,
and not through the tools you're using.
Speaker 4 (44:00):
So it's beautiful, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
So we're coming closer, and I want to get a
couple of these. You talk about a few domains of
integration that I think are I was really compelled. I
took a lot of notes on all of the stuff.
We won't have time to go through even just a
few of them. But first, what do you mean by
domains of integration? Why are they useful? And then we'll
talk about a couple examples.
Speaker 6 (44:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think integration. And when I say integration,
I'm really talking about kind of integration of self and
how you understand yourself kind of on a global perspective,
And integration is really an outcome.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
So if you work to become.
Speaker 6 (44:35):
More regulated emotionally and if you're able to have deep
connections with other people, then integration is often an outcome
of that, and there are different areas of integration. And
so really it's about how do we make sense of
our story and our identity as a whole, taking all
(44:59):
of our experiences into account, not you know, not like
you know, painting things with rainbows and butterflies that weren't good,
but also not allowing those things to hold us back,
but to integrate them in terms of what we've learned
and how we've come to make meaning of the things
that have happened in our lives. And so that, on
(45:20):
a kind of a high level, is what integration is
really about. It's about meaning making and having an integrated
sense of yourself.
Speaker 5 (45:29):
Awesome.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Okay, So there's several that you talk about here. I
don't know if there are any favorites that you want
to share.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 6 (45:37):
One of the areas is we talk about brain integration
specifically and so kind of bilaterally in your brain. So
right brain, left brain. And you know, it's not accurate
to say, oh, I'm right brained or oh I'm left brained.
Speaker 5 (45:52):
Science is really both sides.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
Yeah, right, science has really bunked that.
Speaker 6 (45:56):
Right. But people who are have a care attachment and
who are more integrated, they're right and left hemispheres of
their brain work together better, right they you know, so
they're more attuned, you know, to each other. So you know,
the right brain as it takes in sensory information, and
(46:17):
you know, really kind of is the emotional antenna, if
you will, of what's going on, and then the left
brain around meaning making and language and kind of linear thinking,
helps to make sense of what the right brain is experiencing.
And so they're working very well together. And so you
can see how that also relates to regulation, right because
if you're you know, if you're have that bilateral integration,
(46:41):
you're going to be more regulated emotionally as well. And
you can also think about brain integration as being top
down or bottom up, so like from your brain stem
up to your prefrontal cortex. That again, instead of your
like brain stem controlling what you do all the time
or you're amygdala, you can slow down that process and
integrate it with what your prefrontal cortex is able to
(47:03):
do in terms of sense making and more kind of
rational thought.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Amazing, and there's so much in there to listeners of yours,
several others that she talks about as well.
Speaker 5 (47:13):
They are really intriguing.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
I do want to finish the show with our final
little bit of hope about maintaining our new leadership story
since we've rewritten it, we've discovered it and we've rewritten it.
And you talk about doctor Barbara fre Frederickson's work and
the centrality of positive psychology and positive emotions. Can you
kind of bring us home here, say in about a minute,
with how we can maintain our new leadership story.
Speaker 4 (47:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (47:38):
Essentially, positive emotion is incredibly powerful, and you can create
opportunities to experience positive emotion. And so positive emotion is
protective in terms of our health and our well being.
It's also beneficial in a team or in a business context,
(47:59):
and there's some research around that. And so you can
generate experiences where you have positive emotion. There are certain
things that you can do build into your everyday rituals
and routines so that you're building that into your life,
and the more positive emotion you experience, that helps you
to live into a more secure attachment story. So I
(48:20):
think just you know, talking about the power of positive
emotion and really finding ways.
Speaker 4 (48:25):
To cultivate that, not waiting.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
You know, I think sometimes we think we have to
sit back and wait to experience emotion, and that's not
necessarily true. When it comes to positive emotion. We can
cultivate it.
Speaker 5 (48:38):
And go looking forward.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
So really sure that's gratitude and joy, gratitude, those things.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Yeah, savoring the moment you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (48:47):
I love how you heard about savoring. So here we are.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
We come to the enother show already. It goes by
so fast. Don't say Goff. It is a delight to
know you, to count it as a friend, as a colleague.
Thank you for writing this beautiful book, for coming on
working and purpose to talk about it.
Speaker 5 (49:00):
You are a gem.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
Thank you, Thank you, Lise.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
Listeners and viewers, you are going to want to learn
more about doctor Jamie Goff, the work she does at
The Empathic Leader, helping leaders unlock your full potential, and
her new book, The Secure Leader. You can start by
visiting her website. It's doctor Jamie Gooff dot com. Let
me spell that for you, so it's d R ja
im g o f F doctor Jamie dot com, Doctor
(49:26):
Jamiegoff dot com. You can also find her on LinkedIn
to by the way, pretty easily. Last week you missed
the live show, you can always catch it via recorded podcast.
We were on here with James talking about his new
book The Archetype Effect, Unlocking six types of motivation at work.
He helped us understand how differently people are motivated and
the opportunity organizations have to examine their reward systems to
(49:46):
encourage their full team to bring their best. Next week
will be on the air with Roderick Jefferson talking about
his spectacular journey as a stroke survivor and building his
strength further as a speaker and a coach. See you then,
and together, let's lean in and learn how to create
destination workplaces where people thrive while doing business in a
way that betters the world.
Speaker 5 (50:05):
Let's Work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
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