May 27, 2025 • 50 mins
As more people seek fulfillment and impact in their careers, the words “meaning” and “purpose” are often used interchangeably. But are they truly the same? What exactly qualifies as meaningful, and how do we define meaning itself? What is purpose, and where does it come from? In this thought-provoking conversation with renowned philosopher Thaddeus Metz, we explore the nuanced dimensions of meaning—how it shapes our lives, work, and pursuit of the good life.
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Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, Doctor
Relise Cortes.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning again this week. Great
to have you. I'm your host, doctor Alas Cortes. If
we have not met before and you don't know me,
I'm an organizational psychologist and management consultant, logo therapists, speaker
and author. My team and I at Gusta Now help
companies to enligen and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,
(01:24):
high performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose.
And did you know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied
peers by a factor of two point twenty five to one.
In other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line.
You can learn more about us and how we can
work together at gusto dashnow dot com or my personal
site at least Cortes dot com. Getting into today's program
(01:45):
we have with us today Doctor Thadius Metz, who has
established himself for having helped to develop life's meaning as
a distinct field of Anglo American philosophy and currently serves
as a research professor at the University of Pretoria in
South Africa. He is a prolific author, having published more
than three hundred professional books, chapters and articles which include
such as Meaning in Life and Analytics, Study God's Soul
(02:08):
and the Meaning of Life and what makes life meaningful?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
A debate.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
He joined it today from pretorious, South Africa. Professor Metz
Welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Hi, thanks for having me at least.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It's wonderful to have you. I terribly enjoyed this book.
I read it cover to cover as I always do,
and a couple of the other things that you sent
me as well. So I really applaud your work. And
as I told you before we got on air, I
went down the rabbit hole, and I mean, you really
got me thinking about something. So I really appreciate your work.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Oh that's hardening, glad to hear it.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, so at least you've got at least one fan,
we know that, right, terrific. I want to start with
something that I think is pretty profound. Even the way
you open the book, it's you know, you've situated the
book as a debate between you and Professor Joshua Secris.
And what I love about it that is, I love
that it's one It's there's a playful banter, but there's
(02:59):
a respect for banter. And what I also want to
just call out, here is just how you really, you know,
you you're showing us, you're modeling for us how to
have a productive or respectful debate where you can completely
disagree with each other on tremendous grounds, but then, as
you say, afterwards, but then go have a beer together afterwards.
I think that's the world we need right now, if
you could please help us with that.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
That, Yeah, I think that's a that's a model, and
it's a kind of meaningful engagement. I actually think you
mentioned two things, a dialogue on the one hand, and
searching for truth together in some kind of constructive way.
And I think I don't think that's you know, I
(03:41):
don't think meaning in life is completely a matter of
those things. But when they're absent, we notice and there's
something missing. And we see this in some of the
images that philosophers use to capture a meaningless life. So
Robert knowsick about fifty years ago he was a Harvard
philosopher lecturer there and he imagined that there was an
(04:03):
what he called an experienced machine, and you didn't have
it's basically a virtual reality device, that's what we would
call it these days. But there was no such thing
fifty years ago, and he imagined that you could get
into this device and it would simulate various activities, so
you would think you're writing the great American novel, or
(04:25):
suppose you're having a great romance, but you're not actually
there doing that. You're fooled by the machine. And he
came up with this thought experiment to suggest that while
a life might be happy in such a machine, it
would be missing some meaning. And part of the reason,
he thinks, is that we would be isolated from each other.
We would just be alone with the technology on the
(04:48):
one hand, but we would also be deceived on the
other We wouldn't be in touch with the truth. And
so it looks like for many of us doing philosophy,
meaning comes from coming together and in search of truths.
That's part of what's going on in a meaningful life.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
It's really beautiful. I think it's important for us to distinguish.
I mean, I think really anybody who's listening listening to
us talk on this program today, certainly you can go
a day without hearing two words meaning and purpose. But
the way that you, both you and Professor Seacrest talk
about meaning, So there's the meaning in life, which is
the personal part of it, and then there's a meaning
(05:25):
of light that's the cosmic part of things. So if
you could distinguish a little bit for our listeners and
viewers between those two very very distinct realms, there.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Are really two questions here, two different questions. One is
which life do we want to inquire about? Is it
the life of an individual such as my life? Do
I want to know whether my life is meaningful or
how it is meaningful? That's one sort of question, you know,
distinguishing between whether I want to know whether it's my
life or whether it's the life of the human race
(05:56):
or life anywhere to be found in the universe. That's
one question, whose life are we interested in? But the
second question is, given a choice of which life to evaluate,
how do we appraise it? Do we appraise it from
a sort of human point of view or do we
take a very big cosmicpective, perhaps a god's eye point
(06:19):
of view, and ask about the impact of that life
on not merely those on earth, but potentially the universe
as a whole. Most philosophers of life's meaning these days
focus on the individual as opposed to the meaning of
the human race. As a whole. And furthermore, when they
(06:41):
evaluate the life of an individual, they tend to do
it in terms from a human point of view, and
so many of us treat the category of meaning in
life as similar to inquiry into what makes a life
happy or when is a body health? Those are about
an individual, and they're not cosmic questions. They are questions
(07:03):
about a life here on earth. And many of us
think that when we're talking about meaning in life, we're
talking about mainly something that's similar, a kind of value
that's similar to happiness or health. And I think part
of the reason for that is that when we get
into cosmic questions, if we ask about what the point
of humanity is, or if we ask about whether the
(07:25):
human race has some role to play in the whole universe,
it's hard to avoid invoking God as understood in the
Abrahamic faiths. And relatively few professional philosophers claim to know
that God exists. They might believe on faith, okay, but philosophers,
(07:46):
you know, by definition, we're looking for evidence. We're looking
for good reasons to believe one thing rather than another.
And relatively few professional philosophers think we have a very
solid case in terms of evidence that God exists, and
so that's led many of us to focus on uh
less cosmic questions, more earthly ones.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
So delightful that so wonderful to me too. And I
think I remember which which book it was that I
read about you, But I read a book every single
week for my podcast. But so glad I found you,
and so glad that you said yes, I'll come on
your podcast with you very just chewy questions. So, given
just how much there is to consider around just meaning,
and I'm going to layer some information around that, or
(08:30):
at least my perspective here in just a second. Now,
let's let's just contrast that with purpose. How would you
distinguish meaning from purpose?
Speaker 4 (08:41):
I think a lot of meaning in life is a
matter of achieving a purpose. If I look at my life,
I'm striving to teach my students something, i want to
make a difference to my field. I want to rear
my children with love and wisdom. I want my marriage
to be strong, happy and so. And those are intuitively
(09:02):
sources of meaning for me, where if I were able
to achieve those purposes. But I think there can be
ways of a life being meaningful that don't involve striving
to achieve a goal. And I think one example, might
(09:23):
hear a few examples. I think, if I love other people,
I'm achieving a kind of purpose of my own. But
if others love me, might not involve any goal directed
activity on my part. Right, there's no striving on my part.
It's something I receive. Or if I think of the
(09:43):
life of Vincent van Go and I think of the
recognition he received after he had died, you know, after
he died, we suppose there wasn't any activity, There wasn't
any striving to achieve a goal, but the influence of
his art and the recognition he receive eat for it
probably made his life, for his existence more meaningful. I
(10:07):
think as well, just simply living in certain environments can
make our lives more important. So if if you live
in a beautiful place, perhaps there's there's nature or really
intricate old architecture, I think a life can be more
important for being in that environment, as opposed to just
being in a place with blocks of prefabricated apartments something
(10:30):
like that, you know, sort of standardized, standardized flats, and
that again doesn't evolve striving to achieve a purpose. So
I think a chunk of meaning consists of achieving purpose.
But we can but meaning can sometimes come to us passively.
We can be recipients of love or recognition, or we
(10:50):
can just be in a setting that we didn't create ourselves,
but we're lucky enough to be there.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
So I'll comment on a couple of things there. One
is so from my vantage point as a as a
logo therapist, and we can talk about that next or whatever,
but but definitely want to situate it because that's really
my it's my chief way of really understanding or embracing
the world of meaning. You know, that's the doctor Pritt
Frankel's work, of course, and and so you know, the
(11:18):
way it's situated in logo logo therapy or logo philosophy
is that meaning is really it's our chief concern and
it's our chief source of energy. So how I distinguish
meaning and purpose is meaning is our is our energy source,
and purpose is the directionality, if you will, a where
we're aiming, if you will, our passions and our and
our and our energies. So that's how I like to
(11:40):
I like to situate it. Do you know anything about
logo therapy or.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I read from long ago, and I sort of have
a broad sense of the basics. Sure, you know, from
my own view, I think achieving the purpose is often meaningful.
It's got to be the right purpose. Can't just be
any ye, right. If the p is to just count
blades of grass or walk in a circle consistently and
(12:05):
there's no sort of valuable output, it's not meaningful. It
doesn't make one's life more important. There's got to be
something more to the purpose.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, And that's where this is so interesting that I mean,
I really got interested in the world of meaning and
purpose in my mid twenties when I was then at
that time living with my boyfriend, first in Spain and
then in Brazil for a total of about three years.
An amazing life, you know, a really really beautiful, opulent life,
living made chauffeur, a gardener, the whole thing. And what
I discovered, though was the emptiness of that. And that's
(12:39):
when I discovered that we as humans are you know,
we're best when we're needed. And you talk about that
too in your book, and that's of course the self
transcendence part of things. And so you know, what I
talk about in my work is purpose is always about
serving something beyond yourself. And so you know, the counting
the blades of graphs, etcetera. Really isn't helping someone out
or something else. So therefore wouldn't really qualify for you know,
(13:01):
for a purpose either. But anyway, so that's just where
it came from for me, as I discovered just how
empty it is when you really aren't being of service,
you're not being needed.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Yeah, I think that's true. And a lot of that
comes down to activity doing something. So if I go
back to the experience machine thought experiment, there isn't and
there isn't an agent, There isn't an actor fulfilling a purpose.
It's another problem with a life in that sort of thing.
And again, it can be very happy to passively receive pleasure,
(13:33):
let's suppose, and it sounds like you lived a very
pleasant life when they did. But yeah, eating typically comes
from doing and as you said, contributing to something beyond oneself. Typically.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
I love the phrase that I that I've used. I
don't remember where I came up with it. Oh, I
know I borrowed it wild alife scratching. It's you know,
I do this and the way organizations help them to
wild a life scratch for their purpose to articulate that.
But now I can tell you where that where that
phrase came from. It's doctor Seuss. Oh, yes, they're very wise,
doctor Seuss. The other the other thing I wanted to
(14:09):
comment on that that I really appreciated in your work,
and you just sort of hinted at it just now,
is this is something that I had discovered myself some
time ago, you know, as a you know, a very
very very very amateur philosopher, is that it is more impactful,
more meaningful, more uh yummy, if you will to be
the one who loves versus just being the one who
(14:31):
receives love. There's there's that passive piece that you're talking about.
There's something I've always found it so much more fulfilling
to be to love someone else than it is just
to be loved.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
I think so too, so I you know, I have
colleagues who think it's very important to be loved, whether
by God on the one hand, or I have also
colleagues who think that animals can live meaningful lives if
they're loved by humans. And I guess I don't want
to deny that it would be nice for there to
be a God that loves me. Sure, I'll take that.
(15:06):
And I look at my pets and I suppose, Okay,
perhaps their lives are a bit more meaningful than strays
don't have a family. But you know, if I really
want a substantially meaningful life, I'm not going to remain passive.
I'm not going to be a mayor recipient. Right. So
if I imagine somebody who is widely adored but doesn't adore
(15:28):
anyone himself, or is cared for by lots of people
but never cares for anybody else, that's not very attractive. Yeah,
And it suggests that insofar as love is going to
make our lives meaningful, it's important to be the one loving.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Completely agree with that. And on that note, let's grab
our first break and let our listeners and viewers reflect
on just who it is that they love and who
they can love a bit more. I'm your host, doctor
Lee Cortez. We run the air with Professor of Dadius Metz,
a research professor at the University of Pretoria in South Africa.
We've been talking a bit about distinguishing meaning in life
and meaning of life, among other things. After the break,
(16:05):
we're going to continue the conversation and go a little
bit deeper into naturalist in supernaturalist thought.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
I'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to
invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit
(16:48):
her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to
get your employees working on purpose. This is working on
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email
to Elise alisee at eliscortes dot com. Now back to
(17:12):
working on purpose.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Relise Cortes, as I
am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize
their potential at work and are led by inspirational leaders
that help them find and contribute their greatness and to
business that betters the world. I keep researching and writing
my own books. So one of my latest came out.
It's called a Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose
can radically enliven your business. And I wrote it to
(17:40):
help leaders understand the lay of today's workforce land what
do they want to need to give their best and
want to stay with you? And then I provide twenty
two best practices to help you create a culture that
will provide that for them. You can find my books
on Amazon or my personal site at least Coortes dot
com if you are just now joining us. My guest
is Professor Thautius Metz, the author of numerous articles and books,
including Meaning in Life and analytic study, God, Soul and
(18:04):
the Meaning of Life and what makes Life Meaningful Debate.
So before we get into I want to hear, of course,
about your position on meaning and in life and meaning
of life. But before we do that, if you could
do that, I know in your book you talk about
four distinct cancers, the natural, supernaturalists and a couple that
I forgot. Would you distinguish those for our listeners and viewers.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
First, I think the most important distinction amongst philosophers is
between naturalism. On the one hand, and supernaturalism on the other.
And the naturalist is somebody who thinks that we could,
in principle have a fully meaningful life purely in a
(18:47):
natural world, purely in a world where there isn't a
spiritual realm, no supernatural realms. We suppose that God and
the soul, no angels, they don't exist. And the naturalist
maintains if the world is like that, if we just
are in a physical world, our lives could be meaningful.
To supernaturalist denies. That supernaturalist says, nope, we need some
(19:12):
kind of spiritual condition God or a soul. At least
in the Abrahamic and Western tradition, those feature centrally, those
have to exist. At least the bulk of meaning in
our lives is going to come only from those kinds
of those kinds of beings. And the grand debate in
(19:34):
the Western tradition amongst philosophers over the past two hundred
years or so has been between naturalism on the one
hand and supernaturalism on the other. And I myself plunk
for the naturalist view. And that's because I imagine sort
(19:56):
of exemplars of really meaningful lives. So I imagine the
life of Albert Einstein, or Mother Teresa or John Coltrane,
and I look at their accomplishments and I think to myself, Gosh,
even if there's no God, even if these three individuals
have not survived the death of their body, they don't
have a soul. They're dead and gone. Still they had
(20:19):
meaningful lives. There was much more meaning in them compared
to other lives that existed at the time, for example.
And that suggests to me that it's not essential to
have a spiritual realm in order to have a meaningful life.
If it's going to play a role in making life meaningful,
(20:40):
it's going to be a nice bonus. It's going to
be something extra. Maybe we'll live longer, maybe we'll be
in touch with a carrying creator. I'm happy to think
those would be sources of meaning life. I just don't
think they're essential to have meaning in our lives.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
I tend to see something similar what I've come what
I've come to in my own life is I would
probably be considered more of a naturalist when it comes
to meaning in life, certainly, although I think what I've
come to is I think there is probably some there
is some kind of you know there's intelligent design to
this whole, this whole thing, and that's I don't feel
the need to really go much further than I just
(21:18):
trust that, judge. I trust the process. But I did
find it really fascinating to listen or to as I
should say, read the debate between you and Professor Secrest,
because he's a supernaturalist, right right, So just fascinating that
you could have that conversation. So now at that point,
now if you could situate for us your position on meaning, right.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
So, I think it would be frightfully nice if we
had God or a soul at our disposal to make
our lives more meaningful. But I just you know, even
if they don't exist, still some meaning as possible. And
where would it come from? And at the core of
my proposal is that it comes from our rational or
(22:01):
the exercise of our intelligence. So if I look at Einstein,
mother Teresa, John Coltrane, if I go back to the
other examples we've discussed of making a contribution to others
or achieving a purpose, and what those seem to have
in common are roughly doing things that animals can't do,
(22:23):
at least not nearly as well. There's something higher about
human persons, and philosophers tend to call it rationality. Psychologists
will tend to call it intelligence. But there's something about deliberating, carefully,
being thoughtful, planning, empathizing, being aware of oneself, that cluster
(22:46):
of traits that, when we use them in the right
sort of way, is a source of meaning. And if
I go back to the other cases we've discussed so far,
lee's about where meaning is absent. So it's absent from
the experience machine, and it's it's it's absent from merely
walking around in a circle. Uh, it's absent from merely,
(23:07):
you know, receiving pleasure. Uh. What's what seems to be
missing is the activity. It seems to be the absence
of intelligent behavior on our part. So the way I
argue is to say, well, intuitively these things are meaningful,
and intuitively these things are not. And then I look
(23:28):
for what the difference is between them, and my suggestion
is it's our rational nature being exercised or not.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
It's fascinating, and it's really fascinating. I further went on
and when it when it came to the kinds of things,
I think, if I have this right, but these are
I'm attributing it correctly to you and not to Professor Secres.
The collection of things such as meriting pride, transcending one's
animal self, acting on reasons of love, making a contribution,
(23:55):
connecting with something great, authorughing an interesting life, finding the
world to make sense? Are those yours?
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Are? They are my suggestions, but they're meant to be neutral.
They're meant to be, in fact, common ground between naturalists
on the one hand and supernaturalists on the other. Okay,
so two different questions when philosophers think about meaning in life.
One is what makes our life meaningful or what would
make it meaningful on the one hand, And then on
(24:25):
the other hand, we pause and sometimes ask, what are
we talking about? If we're talking about meaning, what do
we have in mind that makes it different from talking
about happiness or health or morality? And the list of
features you just mentioned, such as making a contribution, or
doing something that merits pride or admiration, or acting out
(24:47):
of love. My suggestion is naturalists and supernaturalists can agree
that that's what we're talking about. When we're debating about
what makes life meaningful, we're figuring out what would make
our lives worthy of pride or admiration. What would give
them a good uh story to tell? What would it
(25:08):
be to make a real contribution? And as I understand it,
the religious folks say, well, those things are going to
come from God roughly, and the naturalist says maybe in part,
but we could do it without God. If we have to.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
That was just there.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
There was a lot that I could I could certainly
connect with on that whole list from for me, of
course make complete sense.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I was.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
I'm in alignment without it for sure.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
There's I don't see.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
I don't know how you could argue against that list personally,
But I do want to go a little bit deeper
into your particular stance about the intelligence is being such
an important construct in and it is how it is
that we experience meaning in life. And then I want
to comment on a couple of things that that are
that I would love to hear your perspective on that
came from my from my work.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
Why don't you go ahead and tell me what how
it might can with you.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Okay, So one thing that I found really interesting, Yeah,
you should be having a beer and not water.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
It's five o'clock in your time.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
So anyway, so one thing that was for me, I've
had this fascination that for years. I guess it started
when I lived in Rio, as I mentioned, and when
I did my PhD in Human development, I studied the
relation between meaning and work and identity. I wanted to
understand how people experienced meaning in their work and how
do they relate it to their sense of self. So
I did that research, and then later I did a
(26:31):
bit much bigger postdoc research, and this time I really
wanted to understand, you know, really the kinds of meaning
that they were talking about. And as I did these
one hundred and fifteen interviews hundred and fifteen m what
I discovered was as people talked about what was meaningful
in their work, I could code it against like Maslow's
hierarchy of needs. And what I discovered when I did
(26:53):
that that when I just when I started coding for
the kinds of meaning people were talking about. You know,
it's one thing to say I make a lot of
money and I have this big house. That's more the
security level down here where people say things like I'm
really proud of my work, or I feel like I
get to live my highest values by doing my work
or you know, I live by my purpose or whatever.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
It is.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
What I discovered, which kind of aligns with what you're
talking about with regard to the power of intelligence to
drive meaning. Is that, generally speaking or not even speaking
in terms of my study, what I discovered was the
more frequently people experienced the higher kinds of meaning available
in Maswow's hierarchy, the more meaningful they found their work,
(27:35):
and generally, the more important it was for their sense
of identity. That's what I discovered. So that's what kind
of made me really want to pay attention to and
hear more about why you were so because it wasn't
just the intellect, because it was also the creativity, which
comes of course maybe from intellect as well. But that's
what I discovered. That makes a lot of sense to me.
(27:57):
So if I recall what Aslo says about self actualization
the highest need, it's a matter roughly of realizing your talents. Right,
you bring aspect yourself together to be creative or to
solve problems, or to achieve something morally, and you do
it moreover, in the light of a clear perception of reality.
(28:18):
That's also important for him.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
And each one of those things looks to me like
a kind of intelligence. So to have a clear apprehension
of reality is to know something that is an exercise
of the intellect. In a more narrow sense, to be creative,
to solve problems, to make some kind of moral achievement. Again,
all of these involve rationality or intelligence. They're different kinds
(28:46):
of intelligence that psychologists distinguish between. It's not all just IQ.
So I think emotional intelligence or esthetic intelligence are also
important sources of meaning, and those can also be in
play in the work. Yeah, and as the count sources
(29:06):
of self actualization, that's.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
What I found as well. So they're variou skins. So today,
what I've kind of come to that is I think
I've really become quite obsessed with the idea of consciousness
and what i'm what i'm and for me, that is
maybe a way too. It's a container for various kinds
of intelligences. Maybe that's what I've kind of come to.
Could you comment on that with your perspective or your
(29:28):
stance on consciousness.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Yeah, so it depends how we define our terms. But
if we say consciousness is a matter of simply an
awareness awareness of something, so awareness of the pain, or
one can see light. I mean those are sort of
more basic, rudimentary forms. I think meaning requires consciousness, but
I think it requires a special kind, which I would
(29:51):
call self consciousness or self awareness. So if you're if
we're talking about self consciousness, we're talking about being aware
of oneself as a self distinct from other parts of
the world and other selves. And it looks like we
human persons have that in a very to a very
rich extent, right, And it looks like animals, or at
(30:14):
least lower animals, don't have that. I just don't think
my cat is aware of itself. It's aware of food,
and it's aware of warmth, but it's not aware of itself.
It doesn't think in terms of an eye, and it
isn't able to step back and say, you know, ask,
you know, should I do this? Or I want this?
(30:35):
But should I pursue? You know, should I do what
I want? We humans are clearly able to do that systematically,
and I think that's at the root of our rationality.
It's what enables us to act for good reasons, to
step back and say, should I do this? Do I
have a good reason to do this? And if I'm
(30:55):
going to do it. How am I going to achieve
achieve this goal? And so if it were just consciousness
that were enough for a meaningful life, then then my
cash would have every bit as meaningful a life as
I do. But I just don't think that. I don't
think his life is meaningless. But I don't. But I
think the human's got a lot more going for it
(31:17):
when it comes to being able to live meaningfully. And
I think ultimately that's because we can be aware of
ourselves and step back and act for good reasons as
opposed to bad ones.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I appreciate how crispy you are that this is a
delicious conversation. Let's let's grub our last break. I'm your host,
doctor Relie's Cortes. We've been on air with Professor Daddius Metz,
a research professor at the University of Buttory in South Africa.
We've been having a most chewy conversation. Will continue when
we come back after the break. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(32:23):
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise
alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Thanks for sting with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I mentioned
in the last break that my book came out, The
Great Revitalization. What I did for you is I created
a simple three page assessment that you can pull off
my website. It will help you understand the extent to
which your organization is meeting the needs of today's discerning workforce.
You can find it at gustodashnow dot com. If you
(33:15):
are just now joining us. My guest is Professor Thadius Metz.
He's the author of numerous articles and books, including Meaning
in Life and Analytics, Study God's Soul and the meaning
of life and what makes life meaningful? A debate which
I just recently read. It was magnificent. So before we
get into further uncovering a bit more of what's under
your perspective and such, I want to share with you
(33:36):
a bit more about logo therapy and let you respond
to that. And I happened. What happened for me is
I of course came across his work when I was
doing my PhD program, but then I was reintroduced to
him in twenty nineteen and I had somebody in my
podcast talking about it, and then I went down and
became like a diplomat level, which is like a level
like a master's level degree in that. So in logo therapy,
(33:58):
the whole idea is that main principle is that our
chief concern as humans is meaning, and it's our chief
energy source and so and our meaning is registered around
that which we value. So what you find meaningful will
be different what I find mean because we have different values.
I already know that you value intelligence and rationale and
intellect I already know that. So the way that it
(34:20):
breaks down is that that we have three sources of
meaning available to us as humans through local therapy. The
first is our creative contributions. What do we give of
ourselves to the world that's important to us, in other words,
that we value. I think for both of us it's
going to be partly our authorship what we have given
to the world in that way. The second source is
what experiences or encounters do we take from the world
(34:43):
that are valuable and meaningful to us. I call that inspiration.
The first one I call passion. So whether it's for me,
this conversation is meaningful to me because of the experience
that it provides me, rights it's inspiring to me. Then
the third source is our attitudinal stance and whatever whatever
however we choose to respond when life throws at us
(35:03):
whatever it does, and of course I call that mindset.
So those are the three sources that are available. And
when I'm out speaking to audiences, I help them. You
understand that, because it's really it's the way. It's one
way we can activate meaning in life on that personal level.
You're talking about that. To me, I want to be
able to offer to people who literally are oftentimes walking
(35:25):
through life debt. Otherwise, I mean, I've been a cardcarry
member of the walking debt I'm not judging anything. I
just want to help those people, right, So could you
comment on just your perspective on logo therapy? How what's
your stance on that now that you've heard a bit
more about it.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Yes, I think it's right to say that for something
to make our lives meaningful, it helps, and maybe it
is essential that we find it meaningful. Got to be
(36:00):
meaningful to us. That sounds That sounds right to me.
But I'd be wary of suggesting that anything we find
meaningful really is. So I gave you a couple of
examples earlier, of counting blades of grass just for the
(36:21):
heck of it, or walking in a circle. You know,
perhaps somebody could find that meaningful, but if they did,
they'd be wrong. I think perhaps better examples come from
the Guinness Book of World Records. So there's one fellow
who has who has achieved the feat of putting the
(36:43):
most number of toothpicks in his beard. And there's another
fellow who has typed out numbers from one to a
million on a typewriter, and not numerically right, he's written
out one, two and so on up to a million.
(37:04):
And I suppose these two were probably fairly dedicated to
their task, and it might well have energized them. Right
after he slept, he's you know, he've got down to
five hundred thousand and one and started the day and
kept going. But you know, maybe there's some meaning there,
(37:25):
but it's not as much, I want to suggest as
other activities these folks could have undertaken. And so you know,
other themes that we've you know, come up in our
conversation at least, like creativity or making a contribution to others.
Those look like important ways to orient one's life if
(37:46):
one wants something meaningful. So it isn't enough to find
an activity meaningful. It's got to be meaningful objectively, as
we philosophers say. And then you want to find what's
really meaningful. Meaning it's got to be meaningful to you,
and it's got to energize you, as you put it,
So I would, I would just tweak things, tweak things there.
(38:10):
I like the suggestion that simply in our attitudes and
the way we think about the world, or way we
orient our mind towards the world, can be a source
of meaning. And I know Frankle was thinking thereof having
been in a concentration camp and not being able to
do very much right. So I've emphasized intelligence, rationality, doing, creativity, morality,
(38:34):
and there just wasn't much opportunity for those kinds of
things where Frunkle was at times. And he suggested plausibly
that simply your mindset can can be a source of meaning.
And so I think, yeah, retaining a sense of self
(38:55):
respect or or being aware of one's dignity in the
face of mystery, that makes sense to me as a
source of meaning. But I think the other thing I'd
want to add is that it's better outside the concentration
camp than in it when it comes to meaning. Yeah,
it's one source, but if we really want a richly
(39:15):
meaningful life, we're going to want to be able to
engage with other people and in creative, constructive ways.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Yeah, you really are augmenting the what the whole stance is.
So it's it's very interesting to hear your perspective on that.
I want to go next. If we can this is
going to be maybe it'll be a continuation what you
just said there. But I was really also intrigued with
this idea that you have in the book that alread anyway,
Meaning is encapsulated in the good, the true, and the beautiful.
(39:47):
Can you say more about that?
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Yeah? So, in my first book titled Meaning in Life,
an Analytics Study, I really poured over what English speaking
for law mainly have had to say about meaning over
the past hundred years, and I kept noticing this cluster
of the good, the true, and the beautiful. And sometimes
(40:10):
it was explicit, sometimes the philosopher would use those words.
Other times it was implicit with the kinds of examples
they would use. They would give examples like Einstein or
Mother Teresa, or Coltrane or artists. And so a lot
of the field thinks that meaning is at least centrally
(40:33):
located in these three kinds of activities. And so by
the good they mean beneficence or acting acting in a
way that makes others better off. And so that would
involve being part of a family, or having friends, or
working for charity or advancing justice. And that's what the
(40:54):
good is supposed to signify. And then the true is
is intellect as you phrased it earlier. So it could
be a matter of getting a formal education, but it
doesn't have to be. It could be a matter of
being wise or coming to know yourself could also be
an instruence of the true and as opposed to being,
(41:14):
you know, deceiving yourself the true of the good and
the beautiful, and that is a matter of creativity. And
there we could be talking about the arts, and that's
the first thing that comes to mind, But it could
also just be a matter of being a good gardener,
or it could be the beautiful could be realized in
(41:38):
one style of clothing, or even in one's humor. Humor
can be creative as well. So I don't think all
meaning is a function of the good, the true, and
the beautiful. And I think I think I can find exceptions.
So if I, as a person overcomes an addiction or
(42:00):
a personality disorder, that doesn't look like it's a matter
of the good, the true, or the beautiful. Right, I'm
not helping other people, I'm not doing anything particularly creative.
Intellect doesn't seem involved in the first instance anyway, but
it would be meaningful, I think, to overcome an addiction.
(42:22):
So I don't think everything about meaning is a matter
of the good, the true, and the beautiful. But it
really that triad captures an awful lot of what we
have in it does it does?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
It's beautiful one of the other things that's coming to me,
and it is the next question I wanted to talk
to you about anyway. But it's really this notion I'm
getting more and more present too. It seems like the
more you know, it's almost like the effort, right, the
more we have to work for something, the more meaningful
it could be. And so right, there's if it comes easy,
(42:55):
maybe it wouldn't be that meaningful. But I couldn't help
noticing in your work that you do. You talk a
lot about like Mandela Nelson. Mandela is somebody that I
really greatly admire. Of course Einstein, but you it seems
that you imply that the more impact one has, the
more meaningful their life is. Is that fair?
Speaker 4 (43:14):
I think that's true. So I think both both are
Both conditions are relevant. So we want to make as
much of an impact as we can, and the more
effort it takes, the more meaning as well. And I
think Mendela encapsulates those both tremendously. Right, So, twenty seven
(43:36):
years in jail but eventually frees an entire country from
a racist dictatorship and becomes the country's first democratically elected president.
You know that's those are impressive outcomes, and it took
a heck of a lot of work, and we want both.
(44:00):
So we don't want to make a lot of effort
without having impact. And I also think that we're not
going to find a lot of meaning if we make
a great impact with little effort. And if I go
back to Robert Nozick, the philosopher who came up with
the thought experiment of the experience machine, he's got another
thought experiment, which he calls the result machine. And it's
(44:21):
a hypothetical device, and you press a button, and you
can do anything to change society. You get any results
you want just by pressing a button. And he suggests, yeah,
maybe you press the button, But is your life going
to have a lot of meaning as a result of
pressing the button. Not nearly as much as if you
(44:42):
had really had to make some kind of effort and
sacrifice to get the same outcome. And so it's another
useful thought experiment when thinking about what makes our lives meaningful,
it does look like it's a matter of both effort
and impact, not just one.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
A very very interesting discovery for me too, And one
of the other things that I want to finish here
with that. I found so so fascinating about your work
that in particular is you've studied various faiths from around
the world, not just stereo Christian, Islamic, et cetera, but
just really throughout the world. And what I appreciate again
about your your style of debate you know in the book,
(45:22):
is you know, the idea of the role of God.
In your discussion with Secris about meaning, it was interesting.
I did find myself wondering something similar as you as
you as you stated in one of the passages, you say,
when Professor Secres speaks of the discrepancy between central longings
of the human heart and the world devoid of God
and afterlife, it is not the human heart as such
(45:44):
that that has these longings, but rather his heart, along
with many others in the West. I think that's a
really really important concept. You know, we tend it's hard
some time to take ourselves out of the equation. Can
you comment and say a little bit more about how that's
distinguished between the two of you and your perspectives.
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Yeah, so, Josh, Professor Seacrest really longs for a world
with God and a soul. Yeah, I got that. I mean,
I think, yeah, some important part of him would be
extremely disappointed to learn that there weren't the world didn't
include those things. And I you know, at certain points
(46:22):
in our debate, I think he thinks, well, all humans
want that, Dan, Yeah, And it is a tempting thought.
If that's your culture, if you're reared, or you just
you've lived only in a Christian culture, that's probably what
you're you know, you're going to be inclined to think that. Yeah.
I've lived outside the United States for more than twenty
(46:42):
five years and have been exposed to lots of different
cultures and religions as a result, and so I'm aware
of some religions and some world views that don't include
notions of God or a soul, and that have literally
billions of adherents. So we've got Confucianism in East Asia,
(47:07):
where there's really no appeal to God or an afterlife
at all. It's quite a this worldly religion. God doesn't
feature in Buddhism either, and Hinduism does feature a God,
but that God isn't a person. It's not a self
aware agent. It's an unconscious force, which is quite different
from you know, the typical Christian understanding of God. And
(47:32):
so we've got billions of people who believe Confucianism, Buddhism,
or Hinduism, and they don't have the deep hankering for
an Abrahamic God or a soul as my colleague does.
And so that that that, you know, that requires a
certain kind of perspective we have to. You know, I
(47:52):
don't think we can dismiss billions of people who've had
you know, I haven't had these desires in the way
my colleague has. And it does lead me to think
not that we have to be pluralists necessarily about religion,
but that we need to be I don't know, respectful
(48:13):
and give consideration to other longstanding traditions when we're debating
these things.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
I very much agree with that. Well, we've already gotten
to the end of the show. Already it goes by
so fast that you know that the show by people
around the world who are interested, of course, in being
able to develop more meaning in their lives and their work,
and want to be part of organizations that are doing
something that is better in the world. What would you
like to leave them with today?
Speaker 4 (48:37):
I guess I'd reflect on what we've done for the
past forty eight minutes or so. It's sometimes said that meaning,
the meaning of life lies in the search for it,
and I don't think that's the full story. We've talked
about lots of other ways to make our lives meaningful
besides searching for meaning, but I think it's probably really
(49:00):
true that one way to make our lives meaningful is
to search for it. And what we've done is to
exercise our intellect together in a constructive way in search
of the truth. And I've really, you know, I've found
it meaningful and I'm grateful to you for the opportunity
to engage.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Thank you, Thad. It's really a delight to know you.
As I say, you really provoked a lot of thinking
and questions for myself, and I thank you very much
for your work, for stuarding, helping to really steward and
establish this field, and for coming on the show. Thanks
for being on working on purpose.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
Thanks again, my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Listeners and viewers. If you want to learn more about
Professor Thaddius Metz, the work he is doing in the
field of meaning in life, or his various articles or books,
the probably the best way to start that would be
to find him on LinkedIn. You can find him and
listed under his full name, It's Thaddeus E H A D.
D e Us Mets Thaddius Mets. See you next week
for another nourishing and inspiring a conversation on working on
(49:59):
purpose and er work is one of the best adventures
and means of realizing our potential and making the impact
We crave and can give us the opportunity to do
business in a way that betters the world. So let's
work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
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Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, Doctor
Relise Cortes.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning again this week. Great
to have you. I'm your host, doctor Alas Cortes. If
we have not met before and you don't know me,
I'm an organizational psychologist and management consultant, logo therapists, speaker
and author. My team and I at Gusta Now help
companies to enligen and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,
(01:24):
high performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose.
And did you know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied
peers by a factor of two point twenty five to one.
In other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line.
You can learn more about us and how we can
work together at gusto dashnow dot com or my personal
site at least Cortes dot com. Getting into today's program
(01:45):
we have with us today Doctor Thadius Metz, who has
established himself for having helped to develop life's meaning as
a distinct field of Anglo American philosophy and currently serves
as a research professor at the University of Pretoria in
South Africa. He is a prolific author, having published more
than three hundred professional books, chapters and articles which include
such as Meaning in Life and Analytics, Study God's Soul
(02:08):
and the Meaning of Life and what makes life meaningful?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
A debate.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
He joined it today from pretorious, South Africa. Professor Metz
Welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Hi, thanks for having me at least.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It's wonderful to have you. I terribly enjoyed this book.
I read it cover to cover as I always do,
and a couple of the other things that you sent
me as well. So I really applaud your work. And
as I told you before we got on air, I
went down the rabbit hole, and I mean, you really
got me thinking about something. So I really appreciate your work.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Oh that's hardening, glad to hear it.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, so at least you've got at least one fan,
we know that, right, terrific. I want to start with
something that I think is pretty profound. Even the way
you open the book, it's you know, you've situated the
book as a debate between you and Professor Joshua Secris.
And what I love about it that is, I love
that it's one It's there's a playful banter, but there's
(02:59):
a respect for banter. And what I also want to
just call out, here is just how you really, you know,
you you're showing us, you're modeling for us how to
have a productive or respectful debate where you can completely
disagree with each other on tremendous grounds, but then, as
you say, afterwards, but then go have a beer together afterwards.
I think that's the world we need right now, if
you could please help us with that.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
That, Yeah, I think that's a that's a model, and
it's a kind of meaningful engagement. I actually think you
mentioned two things, a dialogue on the one hand, and
searching for truth together in some kind of constructive way.
And I think I don't think that's you know, I
(03:41):
don't think meaning in life is completely a matter of
those things. But when they're absent, we notice and there's
something missing. And we see this in some of the
images that philosophers use to capture a meaningless life. So
Robert knowsick about fifty years ago he was a Harvard
philosopher lecturer there and he imagined that there was an
(04:03):
what he called an experienced machine, and you didn't have
it's basically a virtual reality device, that's what we would
call it these days. But there was no such thing
fifty years ago, and he imagined that you could get
into this device and it would simulate various activities, so
you would think you're writing the great American novel, or
(04:25):
suppose you're having a great romance, but you're not actually
there doing that. You're fooled by the machine. And he
came up with this thought experiment to suggest that while
a life might be happy in such a machine, it
would be missing some meaning. And part of the reason,
he thinks, is that we would be isolated from each other.
We would just be alone with the technology on the
(04:48):
one hand, but we would also be deceived on the
other We wouldn't be in touch with the truth. And
so it looks like for many of us doing philosophy,
meaning comes from coming together and in search of truths.
That's part of what's going on in a meaningful life.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
It's really beautiful. I think it's important for us to distinguish.
I mean, I think really anybody who's listening listening to
us talk on this program today, certainly you can go
a day without hearing two words meaning and purpose. But
the way that you, both you and Professor Seacrest talk
about meaning, So there's the meaning in life, which is
the personal part of it, and then there's a meaning
(05:25):
of light that's the cosmic part of things. So if
you could distinguish a little bit for our listeners and
viewers between those two very very distinct realms, there.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Are really two questions here, two different questions. One is
which life do we want to inquire about? Is it
the life of an individual such as my life? Do
I want to know whether my life is meaningful or
how it is meaningful? That's one sort of question, you know,
distinguishing between whether I want to know whether it's my
life or whether it's the life of the human race
(05:56):
or life anywhere to be found in the universe. That's
one question, whose life are we interested in? But the
second question is, given a choice of which life to evaluate,
how do we appraise it? Do we appraise it from
a sort of human point of view or do we
take a very big cosmicpective, perhaps a god's eye point
(06:19):
of view, and ask about the impact of that life
on not merely those on earth, but potentially the universe
as a whole. Most philosophers of life's meaning these days
focus on the individual as opposed to the meaning of
the human race. As a whole. And furthermore, when they
(06:41):
evaluate the life of an individual, they tend to do
it in terms from a human point of view, and
so many of us treat the category of meaning in
life as similar to inquiry into what makes a life
happy or when is a body health? Those are about
an individual, and they're not cosmic questions. They are questions
(07:03):
about a life here on earth. And many of us
think that when we're talking about meaning in life, we're
talking about mainly something that's similar, a kind of value
that's similar to happiness or health. And I think part
of the reason for that is that when we get
into cosmic questions, if we ask about what the point
of humanity is, or if we ask about whether the
(07:25):
human race has some role to play in the whole universe,
it's hard to avoid invoking God as understood in the
Abrahamic faiths. And relatively few professional philosophers claim to know
that God exists. They might believe on faith, okay, but philosophers,
(07:46):
you know, by definition, we're looking for evidence. We're looking
for good reasons to believe one thing rather than another.
And relatively few professional philosophers think we have a very
solid case in terms of evidence that God exists, and
so that's led many of us to focus on uh
less cosmic questions, more earthly ones.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
So delightful that so wonderful to me too. And I
think I remember which which book it was that I
read about you, But I read a book every single
week for my podcast. But so glad I found you,
and so glad that you said yes, I'll come on
your podcast with you very just chewy questions. So, given
just how much there is to consider around just meaning,
and I'm going to layer some information around that, or
(08:30):
at least my perspective here in just a second. Now,
let's let's just contrast that with purpose. How would you
distinguish meaning from purpose?
Speaker 4 (08:41):
I think a lot of meaning in life is a
matter of achieving a purpose. If I look at my life,
I'm striving to teach my students something, i want to
make a difference to my field. I want to rear
my children with love and wisdom. I want my marriage
to be strong, happy and so. And those are intuitively
(09:02):
sources of meaning for me, where if I were able
to achieve those purposes. But I think there can be
ways of a life being meaningful that don't involve striving
to achieve a goal. And I think one example, might
(09:23):
hear a few examples. I think, if I love other people,
I'm achieving a kind of purpose of my own. But
if others love me, might not involve any goal directed
activity on my part. Right, there's no striving on my part.
It's something I receive. Or if I think of the
(09:43):
life of Vincent van Go and I think of the
recognition he received after he had died, you know, after
he died, we suppose there wasn't any activity, There wasn't
any striving to achieve a goal, but the influence of
his art and the recognition he receive eat for it
probably made his life, for his existence more meaningful. I
(10:07):
think as well, just simply living in certain environments can
make our lives more important. So if if you live
in a beautiful place, perhaps there's there's nature or really
intricate old architecture, I think a life can be more
important for being in that environment, as opposed to just
being in a place with blocks of prefabricated apartments something
(10:30):
like that, you know, sort of standardized, standardized flats, and
that again doesn't evolve striving to achieve a purpose. So
I think a chunk of meaning consists of achieving purpose.
But we can but meaning can sometimes come to us passively.
We can be recipients of love or recognition, or we
(10:50):
can just be in a setting that we didn't create ourselves,
but we're lucky enough to be there.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
So I'll comment on a couple of things there. One
is so from my vantage point as a as a
logo therapist, and we can talk about that next or whatever,
but but definitely want to situate it because that's really
my it's my chief way of really understanding or embracing
the world of meaning. You know, that's the doctor Pritt
Frankel's work, of course, and and so you know, the
(11:18):
way it's situated in logo logo therapy or logo philosophy
is that meaning is really it's our chief concern and
it's our chief source of energy. So how I distinguish
meaning and purpose is meaning is our is our energy source,
and purpose is the directionality, if you will, a where
we're aiming, if you will, our passions and our and
our and our energies. So that's how I like to
(11:40):
I like to situate it. Do you know anything about
logo therapy or.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I read from long ago, and I sort of have
a broad sense of the basics. Sure, you know, from
my own view, I think achieving the purpose is often meaningful.
It's got to be the right purpose. Can't just be
any ye, right. If the p is to just count
blades of grass or walk in a circle consistently and
(12:05):
there's no sort of valuable output, it's not meaningful. It
doesn't make one's life more important. There's got to be
something more to the purpose.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, And that's where this is so interesting that I mean,
I really got interested in the world of meaning and
purpose in my mid twenties when I was then at
that time living with my boyfriend, first in Spain and
then in Brazil for a total of about three years.
An amazing life, you know, a really really beautiful, opulent life,
living made chauffeur, a gardener, the whole thing. And what
I discovered, though was the emptiness of that. And that's
(12:39):
when I discovered that we as humans are you know,
we're best when we're needed. And you talk about that
too in your book, and that's of course the self
transcendence part of things. And so you know, what I
talk about in my work is purpose is always about
serving something beyond yourself. And so you know, the counting
the blades of graphs, etcetera. Really isn't helping someone out
or something else. So therefore wouldn't really qualify for you know,
(13:01):
for a purpose either. But anyway, so that's just where
it came from for me, as I discovered just how
empty it is when you really aren't being of service,
you're not being needed.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Yeah, I think that's true. And a lot of that
comes down to activity doing something. So if I go
back to the experience machine thought experiment, there isn't and
there isn't an agent, There isn't an actor fulfilling a purpose.
It's another problem with a life in that sort of thing.
And again, it can be very happy to passively receive pleasure,
(13:33):
let's suppose, and it sounds like you lived a very
pleasant life when they did. But yeah, eating typically comes
from doing and as you said, contributing to something beyond oneself. Typically.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
I love the phrase that I that I've used. I
don't remember where I came up with it. Oh, I
know I borrowed it wild alife scratching. It's you know,
I do this and the way organizations help them to
wild a life scratch for their purpose to articulate that.
But now I can tell you where that where that
phrase came from. It's doctor Seuss. Oh, yes, they're very wise,
doctor Seuss. The other the other thing I wanted to
(14:09):
comment on that that I really appreciated in your work,
and you just sort of hinted at it just now,
is this is something that I had discovered myself some
time ago, you know, as a you know, a very
very very very amateur philosopher, is that it is more impactful,
more meaningful, more uh yummy, if you will to be
the one who loves versus just being the one who
(14:31):
receives love. There's there's that passive piece that you're talking about.
There's something I've always found it so much more fulfilling
to be to love someone else than it is just
to be loved.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
I think so too, so I you know, I have
colleagues who think it's very important to be loved, whether
by God on the one hand, or I have also
colleagues who think that animals can live meaningful lives if
they're loved by humans. And I guess I don't want
to deny that it would be nice for there to
be a God that loves me. Sure, I'll take that.
(15:06):
And I look at my pets and I suppose, Okay,
perhaps their lives are a bit more meaningful than strays
don't have a family. But you know, if I really
want a substantially meaningful life, I'm not going to remain passive.
I'm not going to be a mayor recipient. Right. So
if I imagine somebody who is widely adored but doesn't adore
(15:28):
anyone himself, or is cared for by lots of people
but never cares for anybody else, that's not very attractive. Yeah,
And it suggests that insofar as love is going to
make our lives meaningful, it's important to be the one loving.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Completely agree with that. And on that note, let's grab
our first break and let our listeners and viewers reflect
on just who it is that they love and who
they can love a bit more. I'm your host, doctor
Lee Cortez. We run the air with Professor of Dadius Metz,
a research professor at the University of Pretoria in South Africa.
We've been talking a bit about distinguishing meaning in life
and meaning of life, among other things. After the break,
(16:05):
we're going to continue the conversation and go a little
bit deeper into naturalist in supernaturalist thought.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
I'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to
invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit
(16:48):
her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to
get your employees working on purpose. This is working on
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email
to Elise alisee at eliscortes dot com. Now back to
(17:12):
working on purpose.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Relise Cortes, as I
am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize
their potential at work and are led by inspirational leaders
that help them find and contribute their greatness and to
business that betters the world. I keep researching and writing
my own books. So one of my latest came out.
It's called a Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose
can radically enliven your business. And I wrote it to
(17:40):
help leaders understand the lay of today's workforce land what
do they want to need to give their best and
want to stay with you? And then I provide twenty
two best practices to help you create a culture that
will provide that for them. You can find my books
on Amazon or my personal site at least Coortes dot
com if you are just now joining us. My guest
is Professor Thautius Metz, the author of numerous articles and books,
including Meaning in Life and analytic study, God, Soul and
(18:04):
the Meaning of Life and what makes Life Meaningful Debate.
So before we get into I want to hear, of course,
about your position on meaning and in life and meaning
of life. But before we do that, if you could
do that, I know in your book you talk about
four distinct cancers, the natural, supernaturalists and a couple that
I forgot. Would you distinguish those for our listeners and viewers.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
First, I think the most important distinction amongst philosophers is
between naturalism. On the one hand, and supernaturalism on the other.
And the naturalist is somebody who thinks that we could,
in principle have a fully meaningful life purely in a
(18:47):
natural world, purely in a world where there isn't a
spiritual realm, no supernatural realms. We suppose that God and
the soul, no angels, they don't exist. And the naturalist
maintains if the world is like that, if we just
are in a physical world, our lives could be meaningful.
To supernaturalist denies. That supernaturalist says, nope, we need some
(19:12):
kind of spiritual condition God or a soul. At least
in the Abrahamic and Western tradition, those feature centrally, those
have to exist. At least the bulk of meaning in
our lives is going to come only from those kinds
of those kinds of beings. And the grand debate in
(19:34):
the Western tradition amongst philosophers over the past two hundred
years or so has been between naturalism on the one
hand and supernaturalism on the other. And I myself plunk
for the naturalist view. And that's because I imagine sort
(19:56):
of exemplars of really meaningful lives. So I imagine the
life of Albert Einstein, or Mother Teresa or John Coltrane,
and I look at their accomplishments and I think to myself, Gosh,
even if there's no God, even if these three individuals
have not survived the death of their body, they don't
have a soul. They're dead and gone. Still they had
(20:19):
meaningful lives. There was much more meaning in them compared
to other lives that existed at the time, for example.
And that suggests to me that it's not essential to
have a spiritual realm in order to have a meaningful life.
If it's going to play a role in making life meaningful,
(20:40):
it's going to be a nice bonus. It's going to
be something extra. Maybe we'll live longer, maybe we'll be
in touch with a carrying creator. I'm happy to think
those would be sources of meaning life. I just don't
think they're essential to have meaning in our lives.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
I tend to see something similar what I've come what
I've come to in my own life is I would
probably be considered more of a naturalist when it comes
to meaning in life, certainly, although I think what I've
come to is I think there is probably some there
is some kind of you know there's intelligent design to
this whole, this whole thing, and that's I don't feel
the need to really go much further than I just
(21:18):
trust that, judge. I trust the process. But I did
find it really fascinating to listen or to as I
should say, read the debate between you and Professor Secrest,
because he's a supernaturalist, right right, So just fascinating that
you could have that conversation. So now at that point,
now if you could situate for us your position on meaning, right.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
So, I think it would be frightfully nice if we
had God or a soul at our disposal to make
our lives more meaningful. But I just you know, even
if they don't exist, still some meaning as possible. And
where would it come from? And at the core of
my proposal is that it comes from our rational or
(22:01):
the exercise of our intelligence. So if I look at Einstein,
mother Teresa, John Coltrane, if I go back to the
other examples we've discussed of making a contribution to others
or achieving a purpose, and what those seem to have
in common are roughly doing things that animals can't do,
(22:23):
at least not nearly as well. There's something higher about
human persons, and philosophers tend to call it rationality. Psychologists
will tend to call it intelligence. But there's something about deliberating, carefully,
being thoughtful, planning, empathizing, being aware of oneself, that cluster
(22:46):
of traits that, when we use them in the right
sort of way, is a source of meaning. And if
I go back to the other cases we've discussed so far,
lee's about where meaning is absent. So it's absent from
the experience machine, and it's it's it's absent from merely
walking around in a circle. Uh, it's absent from merely,
(23:07):
you know, receiving pleasure. Uh. What's what seems to be
missing is the activity. It seems to be the absence
of intelligent behavior on our part. So the way I
argue is to say, well, intuitively these things are meaningful,
and intuitively these things are not. And then I look
(23:28):
for what the difference is between them, and my suggestion
is it's our rational nature being exercised or not.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
It's fascinating, and it's really fascinating. I further went on
and when it when it came to the kinds of things,
I think, if I have this right, but these are
I'm attributing it correctly to you and not to Professor Secres.
The collection of things such as meriting pride, transcending one's
animal self, acting on reasons of love, making a contribution,
(23:55):
connecting with something great, authorughing an interesting life, finding the
world to make sense? Are those yours?
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Are? They are my suggestions, but they're meant to be neutral.
They're meant to be, in fact, common ground between naturalists
on the one hand and supernaturalists on the other. Okay,
so two different questions when philosophers think about meaning in life.
One is what makes our life meaningful or what would
make it meaningful on the one hand, And then on
(24:25):
the other hand, we pause and sometimes ask, what are
we talking about? If we're talking about meaning, what do
we have in mind that makes it different from talking
about happiness or health or morality? And the list of
features you just mentioned, such as making a contribution, or
doing something that merits pride or admiration, or acting out
(24:47):
of love. My suggestion is naturalists and supernaturalists can agree
that that's what we're talking about. When we're debating about
what makes life meaningful, we're figuring out what would make
our lives worthy of pride or admiration. What would give
them a good uh story to tell? What would it
(25:08):
be to make a real contribution? And as I understand it,
the religious folks say, well, those things are going to
come from God roughly, and the naturalist says maybe in part,
but we could do it without God. If we have to.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
That was just there.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
There was a lot that I could I could certainly
connect with on that whole list from for me, of
course make complete sense.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I was.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
I'm in alignment without it for sure.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
There's I don't see.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
I don't know how you could argue against that list personally,
But I do want to go a little bit deeper
into your particular stance about the intelligence is being such
an important construct in and it is how it is
that we experience meaning in life. And then I want
to comment on a couple of things that that are
that I would love to hear your perspective on that
came from my from my work.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
Why don't you go ahead and tell me what how
it might can with you.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Okay, So one thing that I found really interesting, Yeah,
you should be having a beer and not water.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
It's five o'clock in your time.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
So anyway, so one thing that was for me, I've
had this fascination that for years. I guess it started
when I lived in Rio, as I mentioned, and when
I did my PhD in Human development, I studied the
relation between meaning and work and identity. I wanted to
understand how people experienced meaning in their work and how
do they relate it to their sense of self. So
I did that research, and then later I did a
(26:31):
bit much bigger postdoc research, and this time I really
wanted to understand, you know, really the kinds of meaning
that they were talking about. And as I did these
one hundred and fifteen interviews hundred and fifteen m what
I discovered was as people talked about what was meaningful
in their work, I could code it against like Maslow's
hierarchy of needs. And what I discovered when I did
(26:53):
that that when I just when I started coding for
the kinds of meaning people were talking about. You know,
it's one thing to say I make a lot of
money and I have this big house. That's more the
security level down here where people say things like I'm
really proud of my work, or I feel like I
get to live my highest values by doing my work
or you know, I live by my purpose or whatever.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
It is.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
What I discovered, which kind of aligns with what you're
talking about with regard to the power of intelligence to
drive meaning. Is that, generally speaking or not even speaking
in terms of my study, what I discovered was the
more frequently people experienced the higher kinds of meaning available
in Maswow's hierarchy, the more meaningful they found their work,
(27:35):
and generally, the more important it was for their sense
of identity. That's what I discovered. So that's what kind
of made me really want to pay attention to and
hear more about why you were so because it wasn't
just the intellect, because it was also the creativity, which
comes of course maybe from intellect as well. But that's
what I discovered. That makes a lot of sense to me.
(27:57):
So if I recall what Aslo says about self actualization
the highest need, it's a matter roughly of realizing your talents. Right,
you bring aspect yourself together to be creative or to
solve problems, or to achieve something morally, and you do
it moreover, in the light of a clear perception of reality.
(28:18):
That's also important for him.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
And each one of those things looks to me like
a kind of intelligence. So to have a clear apprehension
of reality is to know something that is an exercise
of the intellect. In a more narrow sense, to be creative,
to solve problems, to make some kind of moral achievement. Again,
all of these involve rationality or intelligence. They're different kinds
(28:46):
of intelligence that psychologists distinguish between. It's not all just IQ.
So I think emotional intelligence or esthetic intelligence are also
important sources of meaning, and those can also be in
play in the work. Yeah, and as the count sources
(29:06):
of self actualization, that's.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
What I found as well. So they're variou skins. So today,
what I've kind of come to that is I think
I've really become quite obsessed with the idea of consciousness
and what i'm what i'm and for me, that is
maybe a way too. It's a container for various kinds
of intelligences. Maybe that's what I've kind of come to.
Could you comment on that with your perspective or your
(29:28):
stance on consciousness.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Yeah, so it depends how we define our terms. But
if we say consciousness is a matter of simply an
awareness awareness of something, so awareness of the pain, or
one can see light. I mean those are sort of
more basic, rudimentary forms. I think meaning requires consciousness, but
I think it requires a special kind, which I would
(29:51):
call self consciousness or self awareness. So if you're if
we're talking about self consciousness, we're talking about being aware
of oneself as a self distinct from other parts of
the world and other selves. And it looks like we
human persons have that in a very to a very
rich extent, right, And it looks like animals, or at
(30:14):
least lower animals, don't have that. I just don't think
my cat is aware of itself. It's aware of food,
and it's aware of warmth, but it's not aware of itself.
It doesn't think in terms of an eye, and it
isn't able to step back and say, you know, ask,
you know, should I do this? Or I want this?
(30:35):
But should I pursue? You know, should I do what
I want? We humans are clearly able to do that systematically,
and I think that's at the root of our rationality.
It's what enables us to act for good reasons, to
step back and say, should I do this? Do I
have a good reason to do this? And if I'm
(30:55):
going to do it. How am I going to achieve
achieve this goal? And so if it were just consciousness
that were enough for a meaningful life, then then my
cash would have every bit as meaningful a life as
I do. But I just don't think that. I don't
think his life is meaningless. But I don't. But I
think the human's got a lot more going for it
(31:17):
when it comes to being able to live meaningfully. And
I think ultimately that's because we can be aware of
ourselves and step back and act for good reasons as
opposed to bad ones.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I appreciate how crispy you are that this is a
delicious conversation. Let's let's grub our last break. I'm your host,
doctor Relie's Cortes. We've been on air with Professor Daddius Metz,
a research professor at the University of Buttory in South Africa.
We've been having a most chewy conversation. Will continue when
we come back after the break. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(32:23):
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise
alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Thanks for sting with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I mentioned
in the last break that my book came out, The
Great Revitalization. What I did for you is I created
a simple three page assessment that you can pull off
my website. It will help you understand the extent to
which your organization is meeting the needs of today's discerning workforce.
You can find it at gustodashnow dot com. If you
(33:15):
are just now joining us. My guest is Professor Thadius Metz.
He's the author of numerous articles and books, including Meaning
in Life and Analytics, Study God's Soul and the meaning
of life and what makes life meaningful? A debate which
I just recently read. It was magnificent. So before we
get into further uncovering a bit more of what's under
your perspective and such, I want to share with you
(33:36):
a bit more about logo therapy and let you respond
to that. And I happened. What happened for me is
I of course came across his work when I was
doing my PhD program, but then I was reintroduced to
him in twenty nineteen and I had somebody in my
podcast talking about it, and then I went down and
became like a diplomat level, which is like a level
like a master's level degree in that. So in logo therapy,
(33:58):
the whole idea is that main principle is that our
chief concern as humans is meaning, and it's our chief
energy source and so and our meaning is registered around
that which we value. So what you find meaningful will
be different what I find mean because we have different values.
I already know that you value intelligence and rationale and
intellect I already know that. So the way that it
(34:20):
breaks down is that that we have three sources of
meaning available to us as humans through local therapy. The
first is our creative contributions. What do we give of
ourselves to the world that's important to us, in other words,
that we value. I think for both of us it's
going to be partly our authorship what we have given
to the world in that way. The second source is
what experiences or encounters do we take from the world
(34:43):
that are valuable and meaningful to us. I call that inspiration.
The first one I call passion. So whether it's for me,
this conversation is meaningful to me because of the experience
that it provides me, rights it's inspiring to me. Then
the third source is our attitudinal stance and whatever whatever
however we choose to respond when life throws at us
(35:03):
whatever it does, and of course I call that mindset.
So those are the three sources that are available. And
when I'm out speaking to audiences, I help them. You
understand that, because it's really it's the way. It's one
way we can activate meaning in life on that personal level.
You're talking about that. To me, I want to be
able to offer to people who literally are oftentimes walking
(35:25):
through life debt. Otherwise, I mean, I've been a cardcarry
member of the walking debt I'm not judging anything. I
just want to help those people, right, So could you
comment on just your perspective on logo therapy? How what's
your stance on that now that you've heard a bit
more about it.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Yes, I think it's right to say that for something
to make our lives meaningful, it helps, and maybe it
is essential that we find it meaningful. Got to be
(36:00):
meaningful to us. That sounds That sounds right to me.
But I'd be wary of suggesting that anything we find
meaningful really is. So I gave you a couple of
examples earlier, of counting blades of grass just for the
(36:21):
heck of it, or walking in a circle. You know,
perhaps somebody could find that meaningful, but if they did,
they'd be wrong. I think perhaps better examples come from
the Guinness Book of World Records. So there's one fellow
who has who has achieved the feat of putting the
(36:43):
most number of toothpicks in his beard. And there's another
fellow who has typed out numbers from one to a
million on a typewriter, and not numerically right, he's written
out one, two and so on up to a million.
(37:04):
And I suppose these two were probably fairly dedicated to
their task, and it might well have energized them. Right
after he slept, he's you know, he've got down to
five hundred thousand and one and started the day and
kept going. But you know, maybe there's some meaning there,
(37:25):
but it's not as much, I want to suggest as
other activities these folks could have undertaken. And so you know,
other themes that we've you know, come up in our
conversation at least, like creativity or making a contribution to others.
Those look like important ways to orient one's life if
(37:46):
one wants something meaningful. So it isn't enough to find
an activity meaningful. It's got to be meaningful objectively, as
we philosophers say. And then you want to find what's
really meaningful. Meaning it's got to be meaningful to you,
and it's got to energize you, as you put it,
So I would, I would just tweak things, tweak things there.
(38:10):
I like the suggestion that simply in our attitudes and
the way we think about the world, or way we
orient our mind towards the world, can be a source
of meaning. And I know Frankle was thinking thereof having
been in a concentration camp and not being able to
do very much right. So I've emphasized intelligence, rationality, doing, creativity, morality,
(38:34):
and there just wasn't much opportunity for those kinds of
things where Frunkle was at times. And he suggested plausibly
that simply your mindset can can be a source of meaning.
And so I think, yeah, retaining a sense of self
(38:55):
respect or or being aware of one's dignity in the
face of mystery, that makes sense to me as a
source of meaning. But I think the other thing I'd
want to add is that it's better outside the concentration
camp than in it when it comes to meaning. Yeah,
it's one source, but if we really want a richly
(39:15):
meaningful life, we're going to want to be able to
engage with other people and in creative, constructive ways.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Yeah, you really are augmenting the what the whole stance is.
So it's it's very interesting to hear your perspective on that.
I want to go next. If we can this is
going to be maybe it'll be a continuation what you
just said there. But I was really also intrigued with
this idea that you have in the book that alread anyway,
Meaning is encapsulated in the good, the true, and the beautiful.
(39:47):
Can you say more about that?
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Yeah? So, in my first book titled Meaning in Life,
an Analytics Study, I really poured over what English speaking
for law mainly have had to say about meaning over
the past hundred years, and I kept noticing this cluster
of the good, the true, and the beautiful. And sometimes
(40:10):
it was explicit, sometimes the philosopher would use those words.
Other times it was implicit with the kinds of examples
they would use. They would give examples like Einstein or
Mother Teresa, or Coltrane or artists. And so a lot
of the field thinks that meaning is at least centrally
(40:33):
located in these three kinds of activities. And so by
the good they mean beneficence or acting acting in a
way that makes others better off. And so that would
involve being part of a family, or having friends, or
working for charity or advancing justice. And that's what the
(40:54):
good is supposed to signify. And then the true is
is intellect as you phrased it earlier. So it could
be a matter of getting a formal education, but it
doesn't have to be. It could be a matter of
being wise or coming to know yourself could also be
an instruence of the true and as opposed to being,
(41:14):
you know, deceiving yourself the true of the good and
the beautiful, and that is a matter of creativity. And
there we could be talking about the arts, and that's
the first thing that comes to mind, But it could
also just be a matter of being a good gardener,
or it could be the beautiful could be realized in
(41:38):
one style of clothing, or even in one's humor. Humor
can be creative as well. So I don't think all
meaning is a function of the good, the true, and
the beautiful. And I think I think I can find exceptions.
So if I, as a person overcomes an addiction or
(42:00):
a personality disorder, that doesn't look like it's a matter
of the good, the true, or the beautiful. Right, I'm
not helping other people, I'm not doing anything particularly creative.
Intellect doesn't seem involved in the first instance anyway, but
it would be meaningful, I think, to overcome an addiction.
(42:22):
So I don't think everything about meaning is a matter
of the good, the true, and the beautiful. But it
really that triad captures an awful lot of what we
have in it does it does?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
It's beautiful one of the other things that's coming to me,
and it is the next question I wanted to talk
to you about anyway. But it's really this notion I'm
getting more and more present too. It seems like the
more you know, it's almost like the effort, right, the
more we have to work for something, the more meaningful
it could be. And so right, there's if it comes easy,
(42:55):
maybe it wouldn't be that meaningful. But I couldn't help
noticing in your work that you do. You talk a
lot about like Mandela Nelson. Mandela is somebody that I
really greatly admire. Of course Einstein, but you it seems
that you imply that the more impact one has, the
more meaningful their life is. Is that fair?
Speaker 4 (43:14):
I think that's true. So I think both both are
Both conditions are relevant. So we want to make as
much of an impact as we can, and the more
effort it takes, the more meaning as well. And I
think Mendela encapsulates those both tremendously. Right, So, twenty seven
(43:36):
years in jail but eventually frees an entire country from
a racist dictatorship and becomes the country's first democratically elected president.
You know that's those are impressive outcomes, and it took
a heck of a lot of work, and we want both.
(44:00):
So we don't want to make a lot of effort
without having impact. And I also think that we're not
going to find a lot of meaning if we make
a great impact with little effort. And if I go
back to Robert Nozick, the philosopher who came up with
the thought experiment of the experience machine, he's got another
thought experiment, which he calls the result machine. And it's
(44:21):
a hypothetical device, and you press a button, and you
can do anything to change society. You get any results
you want just by pressing a button. And he suggests, yeah,
maybe you press the button, But is your life going
to have a lot of meaning as a result of
pressing the button. Not nearly as much as if you
(44:42):
had really had to make some kind of effort and
sacrifice to get the same outcome. And so it's another
useful thought experiment when thinking about what makes our lives meaningful,
it does look like it's a matter of both effort
and impact, not just one.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
A very very interesting discovery for me too, And one
of the other things that I want to finish here
with that. I found so so fascinating about your work
that in particular is you've studied various faiths from around
the world, not just stereo Christian, Islamic, et cetera, but
just really throughout the world. And what I appreciate again
about your your style of debate you know in the book,
(45:22):
is you know, the idea of the role of God.
In your discussion with Secris about meaning, it was interesting.
I did find myself wondering something similar as you as
you as you stated in one of the passages, you say,
when Professor Secres speaks of the discrepancy between central longings
of the human heart and the world devoid of God
and afterlife, it is not the human heart as such
(45:44):
that that has these longings, but rather his heart, along
with many others in the West. I think that's a
really really important concept. You know, we tend it's hard
some time to take ourselves out of the equation. Can
you comment and say a little bit more about how that's
distinguished between the two of you and your perspectives.
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Yeah, so, Josh, Professor Seacrest really longs for a world
with God and a soul. Yeah, I got that. I mean,
I think, yeah, some important part of him would be
extremely disappointed to learn that there weren't the world didn't
include those things. And I you know, at certain points
(46:22):
in our debate, I think he thinks, well, all humans
want that, Dan, Yeah, And it is a tempting thought.
If that's your culture, if you're reared, or you just
you've lived only in a Christian culture, that's probably what
you're you know, you're going to be inclined to think that. Yeah.
I've lived outside the United States for more than twenty
(46:42):
five years and have been exposed to lots of different
cultures and religions as a result, and so I'm aware
of some religions and some world views that don't include
notions of God or a soul, and that have literally
billions of adherents. So we've got Confucianism in East Asia,
(47:07):
where there's really no appeal to God or an afterlife
at all. It's quite a this worldly religion. God doesn't
feature in Buddhism either, and Hinduism does feature a God,
but that God isn't a person. It's not a self
aware agent. It's an unconscious force, which is quite different
from you know, the typical Christian understanding of God. And
(47:32):
so we've got billions of people who believe Confucianism, Buddhism,
or Hinduism, and they don't have the deep hankering for
an Abrahamic God or a soul as my colleague does.
And so that that that, you know, that requires a
certain kind of perspective we have to. You know, I
(47:52):
don't think we can dismiss billions of people who've had
you know, I haven't had these desires in the way
my colleague has. And it does lead me to think
not that we have to be pluralists necessarily about religion,
but that we need to be I don't know, respectful
(48:13):
and give consideration to other longstanding traditions when we're debating
these things.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
I very much agree with that. Well, we've already gotten
to the end of the show. Already it goes by
so fast that you know that the show by people
around the world who are interested, of course, in being
able to develop more meaning in their lives and their work,
and want to be part of organizations that are doing
something that is better in the world. What would you
like to leave them with today?
Speaker 4 (48:37):
I guess I'd reflect on what we've done for the
past forty eight minutes or so. It's sometimes said that meaning,
the meaning of life lies in the search for it,
and I don't think that's the full story. We've talked
about lots of other ways to make our lives meaningful
besides searching for meaning, but I think it's probably really
(49:00):
true that one way to make our lives meaningful is
to search for it. And what we've done is to
exercise our intellect together in a constructive way in search
of the truth. And I've really, you know, I've found
it meaningful and I'm grateful to you for the opportunity
to engage.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Thank you, Thad. It's really a delight to know you.
As I say, you really provoked a lot of thinking
and questions for myself, and I thank you very much
for your work, for stuarding, helping to really steward and
establish this field, and for coming on the show. Thanks
for being on working on purpose.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
Thanks again, my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Listeners and viewers. If you want to learn more about
Professor Thaddius Metz, the work he is doing in the
field of meaning in life, or his various articles or books,
the probably the best way to start that would be
to find him on LinkedIn. You can find him and
listed under his full name, It's Thaddeus E H A D.
D e Us Mets Thaddius Mets. See you next week
for another nourishing and inspiring a conversation on working on
(49:59):
purpose and er work is one of the best adventures
and means of realizing our potential and making the impact
We crave and can give us the opportunity to do
business in a way that betters the world. So let's
work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
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