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April 15, 2025 52 mins
Work isn’t just about a paycheck— it’s the framework that shapes our lives. In this episode, we explore the tension between pursuing a job, a career, or a calling and the practical realities of economic necessity. From the fallout of 9/11 to the global upheaval of the COVID-19 pandemic, we've seen how societal shifts influence our work-life connection. What if we flipped the script? Instead of letting work dictate our lifestyle, could we design our careers around the lifestyle we truly want?

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicitor implies shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio
or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should
be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

(00:21):
W FOURCY Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortez.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to with passionate pride since February of twenty fifteen.
Thanks for Tune eighty and this week. Great to have you.
I'm your host, doctor Eliscoretes. If we've not met before
and you don't know me, I'm an organizational psychologist, workforce advisor,
management consultant, speaker and author, and my team and I
at gusto Now help equip your organization to best attract, engage,
and keep today's diverse and discerning workforce. We do so

(01:27):
in part by teaching you how to activate meeting and
purpose and inspiration throughout your leadership and culture. And did
you know that inspiration is good for the bottom line?
In fact, inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers by a
factor of two point twenty five to one. You can
learn more about us and how we can work together
at gustodashnow dot com or my personal site at Lascortes
dot com. Before we get into today's program, I am

(01:50):
thrilled to announce that registration is ongoing for the fabulous
new conference for women for which I'll serve as the MC.
It's called Thrive in twenty five and it's a jam
packed few days in Chicago, twenty fifth through twenty eighth,
twenty twenty five is designed to develop women as whole seals,
from bolstering your mindset to your financial acumen, to leadership,
to incorporating nature and art into your life, to raise

(02:10):
consciousness and much more. Visit thrive in twenty five dot
com for more information and to register. Use my promo
code Gusto in all caps to gain access to the
free books and programs I'll be gifting registrants. See you
there now getting back in today's program we have with
us for the second time around. We have doctor Christopher
Wong Michaelson, a philosopher with twenty five years of experience

(02:31):
advising business leaders, pursuing meaning and providing work with purpose.
He is the Barbara and David A. Coch Coach Endowed
Cheer in Business Ethics and Academic director of the Melrose
and the Toro Company Center for Principal Leadership at the
University of Saint Thomas and on the Business and Society
Faculty of NYU's Stern School of Business. Also with us

(02:55):
back again a second time is doctor Jennifer Toci Coattis,
who is the Camillia Latino Spinel Endowed Termchair and Professor
of Management and at Bapst College. She teaches researchers and
coaches others about what it means to craft a meaningful
career and appreciate the risk and rewards of work as
a calling. Today, they have written The Meaning and Purpose

(03:16):
of Work and Interdisciplinary Framework for Considering what Work is for,
which will be talking about today. Christopher joins us from
minne Amplis and Jennifer from Boston. Christopher and jen and
welcome back to Working on Purpose.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
It's great to be back. Thank you, Elise, so welcome.

Speaker 5 (03:31):
Thank you, Elise.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
This is wonderful, so welcome. And look at this a
beautiful thing you brought forth. It's just beautiful. You know,
it's not a lot of pages, but there is a
lot in here which I really appreciate. So you've packed
in a lot of really interesting, juicy, yummy information. So
we're going to dive into it. Would I'd venture to
say that most of the people that are listening to
this podcast today probably don't know just how much variance

(03:55):
and nuance there is to the world and meaning and purpose.
So we're going to dive in. Okay, so let's do this.
I would love to open with your perspectives. One of
you or both of you. Why people do you think
are so fixated today on meaning and purpose? What's the
draw and do you think it does stiffer by generations?
I think it does, But what's your perspective?

Speaker 5 (04:18):
I'll jump in, Oh, go ahead, CHRISTI regin. I was
gonna say, I'll jump in briefly and then let Christopher
take it. As you can see, we're both eager to answer.
I do want to give a shout out Elisa as
you held up that beautiful book, and I do think
it's more beautiful, perhaps than like the average book. The
cover art was done by Christopher's wife, Beth, who is
a people loved that it reminds us of the sea

(04:42):
and the sky and just this contemplative you know, color
and vision, and so that's what we hoped to bring forward.
So to answer your question, I think that meaning and
purpose are hopefully always on our minds to some extent,
but never more so than when we're faced with a crisis.
And so I think, especially now post pandemic, people are

(05:06):
still grappling with the pandemic feels sort of near but far,
and we have a lot of remnants and vestiges of it.
And I think one of those is people still wondering,
you know, if the work that they do, which pulls
them away from anything else they might do with their life,
maybe pulls them away from loved ones or requires sacrifices

(05:26):
of various kinds, really is how they want to be
spending their time. And so I think we all get
a little more contemplative, a little more intentional when faced
with crisis, and I just think we still feel those
traces of the you know, sort of formative impact that
the pandemic had on us. To your question about generations,
I think no one feels this more acutely than today's

(05:50):
youngest generation in the workforce, Generation Z, who really, you know,
came of age, sort of entered the workforce, grappled directly
with what the pandemic meant. And so research is showing
Generation Z, compared to prior generations, values things like having
a stable job, having financial security. It's sort of like

(06:12):
they saw how tumultuous things could be and how unpredictable,
and they're seeking a bedrock. And I think part of
that because the Millennials were described they're one generation older.
Generation was described as the purpose generation. But I think
that what we're seeing is the same holds true for
Generation Z. They value like a third of Generation Z

(06:36):
says their number one criterion for work is that they
feel that it makes a difference in the world, that
it has a clear meaning and a clear purpose. So
I just think that's part of that post COVID nature
that it kind of forces us to ask the big
questions completely.

Speaker 4 (06:56):
It alludes to there are people who study generations for
a living, and so there are people who know far
more about the characteristics of Generation Z versus millennials than
I do. And I think that I'm out of the
generational forecasting business because it's so complex, these forces that

(07:19):
influence their choices. But I can say something about some
members of Generation Z who I happen to be meeting
with an hour from now in class. And these are
students who are actually mostly seniors in college who are
doing internships. And it's April fifteenth, tax Day, and most
of my students in this class are actually doing internships

(07:41):
with tax accounting firms. They's sort of arms and legs
for the piles and piles of tax returns that they
have to get through. And I have to say that
at the beginning of the semester. When my students were
new in their internships, they were expressing great satisfaction from
learning a new technique or a new statute and just

(08:01):
getting from the beginning to the end of a tax form.
But now that that's old hat, they're wanting more. A
lot of them are saying, hmm, this was great. I
learned a lot, But I wonder if a lifetime of
doing tax returns is enough for me. So in that sense,
I think the questions of meaning and purpose can be timeless.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
I really appreciate you saying that. Christopher. Also in your
book this came up. I noticed you said something about
people saying I want more. And what I've discovered as
well in my work and what I'm out speaking is
that what they really oftentimes mean by that is they
do want more. Meaning that more is very interesting sort
of as tell. It's a very simple tell. So this
idea of work, right especially you've been talking about the

(08:43):
idea of its tax returns and oh my gosh, I
got my done on Sunday. But work can be, you know,
at its best, wildly fulfilling and a chance to really
do meaning for work, and it's worst, it can be
soul sucking. So let's talk a little bit about what
it looks like when it's at its best.

Speaker 4 (09:01):
I have an example of when it's at it's worst,
but hopefully we can transition to when it's at its best.
For tonight's class, my students read the opening of Adam
Smith The Wealth of Nations, which famously depicts a pin
making factory in which it takes eighteen manual steps to
create a fully fashioned straight pin. So just imagine eighteen

(09:26):
steps to make this simple little item, and how dull
each one of those steps must be. So one thing
that we're going to be talking about is, well, why
why do we break those tasks into simpler and simpler
tasks such that they're eighteen of them? And one of

(09:48):
the reasons is that it's incredibly productive to do so.
It's far more efficient to work in organizations than to
work on our own, and so in that sense, what
makes work at its best meaningful is the ability to
do much more than we can individually to as the

(10:08):
saying goes, to be part of something much bigger than ourselves.
And yet that example shows the risk that work can
also kind of destin us for doing something much smaller
than ourselves. So it's really up to the people who
have the power to assign and divide and distribute work

(10:30):
to think about how it is assigned and designed and
distributed to make it more fulfilling.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
I like what you said in the book about how
work can give meaning and purpose and it can take
it away. I think that's a really powerful way to
think about it. Did you want to add anything to that, Jim.

Speaker 5 (10:47):
Well, it's funny. Christopher keeps referencing his class, and so
I just came from class. He's going to class, and
I just came from class. One of the things we
talked about in this class in particular was the concept
of flow. So this state where you are so fully
engaged in your mind and body that, for example, you
lose track of time. And just as Christopher is talking

(11:09):
about these sort of double edged sword, the students have
a lot of trouble disentangling trueflow from I had a
boring job and I zoned out to get through it.
They're like, is that flow? Because I basically go somewhere
else in my mind to get through the day. And
we had to explain how that's like the opposite, you know,
the opposite of flow. I think the only thing other

(11:29):
thing I want to So I think flow, a flow
state could be a work at its best kind of state,
and then the opposite of that sort of I have
to numb myself to get through the workday. Is is
the you know, is work at its worst. But I
think the other piece that matters a lot is about
recognition and appreciation. And so I think often we have

(11:52):
important work in society that we know is important, but
that too often gets looked down upon or goes unnoticed.
And so I think that's the other our other side
of it is that few of us are lucky enough
to work in both you know, occupations that we feel
sufficient autonomy, we love it, we're engaged. Maybe we do

(12:13):
occasionally or often reach a state of flow and that
are also recognized and appreciated within society.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
Well, that is certainly what I'm out to do, as
you both know, is out to create more workplaces where
you can really feel that sense of being fulfilled and
that this is where I want to be, This is
where I belong, and I don't want to leave what
I call destination workplaces. So I'm certainly out to help
champion more of those experiences because I want people to
be able to define work as we want to talk

(12:42):
about next, in a way that really matters to them.
So let's talk a little bit about definitions of work.
And I like how you talk about how when people
do start talking about definitions of work for themselves, that
it really reveals what they value. So you could situate
for us what work really means.

Speaker 5 (13:00):
Yeah, we define work as that which is effortful, purposeful,
and recognized by society. And here I don't mean recognized
by society like what I was just talking about in
terms of really valuing and recognizing and appreciating the work
sort of in its own rights, So not I don't know,

(13:20):
you know, walking by the street sweeper or the office
cleaner without you know, thanking and acknowledging their work, which
is more what I was alluding to in the first answer.
But I mean, at a very basic level, like we
would say we consider it work in society, we consider
it to be work. Now often that overlaps with paid employment.

(13:40):
So a question might be what gets left out of
this definition, And what gets left out is are things
that are purposeful and effortful, but which we generally do
not consider to be work in the in the you know,
colloquial sense that we use it in every day language.

(14:01):
So things like if we clean our own homes or
raise our own children, those are a heck of a
lot of work, extremely purposeful, and yet when we pay
someone else to do it, it's work. When we do
it for ourselves, it's not. Of course, it excludes you know,
historically marginalized work like that which was done by women

(14:22):
or minorities like housework and childcare. But that's we're sort
of meeting a contemporary definition, you know, sort of where
it's at. The generally dovetails with paid employment.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
One of the things I thought was interesting you talked
about the notion of how you know, how someone describes
their work is going to speak to what they value.
That I went straight to as a logo therapist. Logos
is Greek for meaning, So that's one of my degrees
and one of one of my practicums that I use
in my consulting. What we know through logo therapy, the
lens of logo therapy and logo philosophy is that meaning

(14:56):
is registered along our value. So what you find meaningful
gen will be for what I find meaningful and was
for Christopher because we have different values. And I certainly
saw that in my own research, and I see it
when I'm out speaking, and even when I told you
I spoke with Professor Thaudius Metz, it's very very clear
to me that one of his chief values is cognitive contribution.

(15:17):
So what he finds meaningful and valuable is very much
his research and all of his articles and books that
he's written because he values cognitive contribution. So just kind
of interesting to me how that really called out it,
and I could see how I could dance and play
with your research as well through my lens.

Speaker 4 (15:33):
A true philosopher. Of course, the philosopher appreciates cognitive contribution
right absolutely. I'm also thinking, as I listened to the
two of you, that the way in which we express
the word work kind of betrays our values. So I
was giving a talk recently and somebody came up to
me before I was beginning to speak, and he said,

(15:53):
you know, work is a four letter word, which is
I think a very old joke, but it was new
to me, and I thought, well, he's just demonstrated his
work values. Whereas I grew up in a home with
a mother whose very identity was her work, and she
kind of inherited that from her father, and so work
was very much not a four letter word in the

(16:15):
way that I came to value it same.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
It is true for me, very very very similar kind
of background in that way. Let us rub our first
break and let our listeners of yours too, and what
we've been talking about so far. I'm your host, doctor
Leis Cortez. We've been on the air with doctor Christopher Wong,
Michael Send, a philosopher with twenty five years of experience
advising business leaders, pursuing meaning and providing work for a purpose,
and doctor Jennifer Tosti Karus, who teaches researchers and coaches

(16:41):
others about what it means to craft a meaningful career
and appreciate the risks and rewards of work as a calling.
We've been talking about the good and the bad, the
pros and cons of work and what it can mean
for us. After the break, we're going to start with
how we distinguish meaning from purpose. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

(17:34):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Alise A Lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to

(17:58):
working on Purpose.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I too,
am dedicated to help create a world where organizations thrive
because of their people thrive, and they're led by inspirational
leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness, and
we do business that betters the world. I keep researching
and writing my own books. So one of my latest
that came out is called The Great Revitalization. How activating
meaning and purpose can radically in liven your business. And

(18:26):
I wrote it to help leaders understand the needs and
wants of today's evolved workforce and then provide twenty two
best practices to help you fold that into your culture,
to provide that for them. You can find my books
on Amazon or my personal site at Leiscortes dot com
if you are just joining us. My guests are doctor
Christopher Wong Michaelson and doctor Jennifer Toasti Karis, the authors
of The Meaning and Purpose at Work and Interdiscplinary Framework

(18:49):
for Considering what work is for which what we've been
talking about here so far. So I think what I've
noticed a lot of times when I'm out speaking is
people tend to conflate the words meaning and purpose. From
my benache point, they are wildly and radically different. How
would you distinguish the two?

Speaker 4 (19:06):
You know, I've had a lifetime of research to think
about this, plus the break we just had, and I
still don't know exactly how to answer this question. So
I'm actually really curious about the clarity of the distinction
that you have, the least because I'm not incredibly clear
about it. I will say that we say in the
book that purpose is inherently teleological, which means that it

(19:31):
is goal oriented. There's a destination in mind, whereas meaning
can be sort of experienced in the moment without necessarily
having a purpose, And I think there's some truth to
that in the way that we sometimes use the words
meaning and purpose. But as you alluded to, some people
conflate the definitions and some people have the definitions completely reversed.

(19:56):
I'll just say one more thing, which is that Emanuel
the Great Philosopher refers to the experience of appreciating an
esthetic object as he said this in German, but it's
often translated into English as purposiveness without purpose, And I

(20:17):
just I love that phrase, even though I think there's
a lot of disagreement about what it actually means. But
to me, that suggests that you can sort of discover
in that moment of esthetic appreciation a reason for being
Like an art object can be an end in itself,
and yet it doesn't have purpose because you don't have

(20:40):
to do anything with it. It doesn't have to be
useful in any way. So I think that's probably closer
to what I just described as meaning, because purpose does
have an end in mind. But those are just some
of the things that I think about as a philosopher
in trying to distinguish these concepts.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Thing you want to add before weigh with my perspective, I.

Speaker 5 (21:03):
Guess just the way I feel like I'm here to say,
the way we tend to use these words in the
you know, typical both consulting and research, is when we
talk about we rarely talk about meaning at the organizational level,
but we do talk about purpose at the organizational level,
which I think is interesting and that I do wonder

(21:23):
about the you know, end, the ending in sight that
Christopher just mentioned and whether that's you know, is that
intentional or should we read too much into it that
it's purpose that got adopted at the organizational level and
not meaning. But I think that is potentially just another distinction,
whether it's a you know, a merely a way we

(21:44):
use the language, or if there's some deeper meaning to it.
We do tend to talk about organizations with a purpose
in a way that we don't talk about organizations with meaning.
I think that's all.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
This is incredibly astute. What I would add to layer
in to this whole conversation is from my vantage point,
and what I talk about is really meaning is our
energy supply, and we can find meaning in the moment
meaning and this this is a meaningful conversation. So of course,
unlike professor Thats that we met so that we talked
about before, who talks about meaning in work and meaning

(22:17):
in life. I am focused in meaning, meaning and meaning
of work and meaning of meaning in work. So so
for me, meaning is always that, that's that energizing source
for us. It's the thing that allows us to be
to be moved by our work in some way. And
then purpose, of course, really is that why you know,

(22:37):
why are we doing? We know? Why are we here?
Why are we do we exist as an organization? Why
do we exist as an individual human? And so that
really speaks to it's a it's a directional sort of
orientation that can guide one's choice, one's choices and values
and decisions. And this is where I think it gets
interesting is it's from my view, it's also connected to
our potential. And that is why I believe people are

(23:00):
so convicted by it because they know on some level
this has something to do with my potential. And I
believe it does. When you finally, when you really fall
into it on a deep level, I believe you can
reach and realize more of your potential.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
I actually think that there was a lot in what
you said that was very clear. That was aligned with
what I said, which was very unclear, and I think
that's probably a good thing. I think one thing that
scholars might talk about is do we need common definitions
of these words? Do we need to understand a common distinction?
I certainly think it makes it easier for us to

(23:36):
talk about these things, but in some way there is meaning,
so to speak, in just talking about the distinctions.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
Completely agree. I can talk about this all day long.
You guys need to go to class afterwards, or you're good,
We're just going to keep going. Okay, Well along those lines,
I have to say, and I'm jealous. I think it
was hu jenn that that studied under Professor Amy. I
want to seems new Ski is that Resneski are very close.
Resneski I knew. I've known of her work for a

(24:05):
long time. I know I've cited it many many times,
and so I want to talk about what she came
up with. She and others I believe came up with.
She has a few co authors looking at work as jobs, careers,
and calling. And this is really important too, not just
for your own individual self, but you in relation to
your partner. That was really really interesting. I can tell

(24:27):
you probably part of the reasons that I'm divorced because
I have a calling orientation and my ex husband had
has a career orientation. I can almost guarantee you that's
part of it. So let's get into it. Yeah, career
calling awesome, all right.

Speaker 5 (24:43):
So I was unbelievably lucky understatement to study at the
Stern School of Business when Amy Resneski was there as
a professor. She ended up being my dissertation chair. From there,
she moved to Yale School of Management and she's now
at Wharton. So you know, her long, illustrious academic career continues,
and I like merely try to just you know, follow

(25:03):
ride on her coatails basically. But so she popularized this
idea of job career and calling for specifically sort of
vocational psychology, organizational psychology, and organizational behavior within the management discipline.
But this was an idea of job career calling that
originated actually in sociology. So Robert Bella and colleagues wrote

(25:24):
this book, Habits of the Heart, which was all about
actually engagement in civic life and as we discuss in
the book, our relationship to our work, where you know,
we spend kind of the majority of our waking hours
most of us do. Was given five pages in the
book was dedicated to work, and in those five pages
they came up with job, career, and calling. And it

(25:45):
was all based on interviews with people to understand their
engagement with civic society or lack thereof. And again work
was not explored in depth, but there was this like
nugget of wisdom in there that then Amy had the
corresponding wisdom to really run with and translate and then
subsequently relate to all these various organizational and individual outcomes,

(26:11):
which has been really her you know, the legacy of
her own research. And so just for readers or sorry
to readers, readers and listeners who may be unfamiliar with
these terms, a job is when the work is a
means to an end, typically a financial end, and the
most common job orientation is mostly about making money from
the work. A career orientation is more about again a

(26:32):
means to an end, but this time it's advancement within
one's career. Traditionally that looked like ascension within an organizational hierarchy.
But today, and I just told this to my students,
actually today it might look like, you know, respect within
your peer group. However, that's defined centrality within an occupational community.
I mean, I don't want to say out loud to
them number of subscribers or you know, anything like that,

(26:55):
but you just figure whatever is your metric of success
and the achievement or that's a career orientation. And then finally,
a calling is where the work is a meaningful end
unto itself and often but not always affiliated with the
idea that your work makes the world a better place
or does a societal good. And so, you know, again

(27:18):
a calling, we glorify it, we tend to talk about,
we tend to advise people, you know, find your calling,
you know, find your purpose, find your calling. And so
we know an awful lot about the calling orientation now
and a lot of research, including my own, has sort
of run with that orientation. I did want to briefly
touch on Amy's work with Winnie Jong. That's all about

(27:40):
this congruence of work orientations in couples. I agree. I
think it's completely fascinating and the overall finding that when
our work orientations are incongruent with you know, a spouse
or life partner, that this is generally bad. So, for example,
if one partner were to become unemployed, it takes them

(28:01):
longer to find a job if the if their partner
is not congruent with their work orientation. And this really
actually then links back to research Christopher and I have
done about how our work orientations are perceived by those
around us, those who are close relations, whether you know spouses, siblings, parents, children,

(28:22):
co workers, et cetera. But that we sort of to
know someone and to know about their life largely is
to also know something about their work. And this idea
of Christopher and I look more at sort of how
do others view the work? You know, how would my
spouse view my work? Which is a little different than
saying are our own work orientations congruent or incongruent? But

(28:45):
I think there's just something so fascinating about And I
think this is where research on job career calling is going.
We're looking more at these sort of relational complexities and
dynamics and sort of the interplay of it. Used to
be just what is my own orientation, not even thinking
about other people. And I even have a paper it's

(29:06):
not yet published, but we're working on that's all about
work orientations and teams. I mean, you can think of superior,
subordinate congruence. I mean, there's just lots of places that
this can go, which I think is really exciting.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
I completely agree. Did you want to chime into something
to Christopher one.

Speaker 4 (29:24):
I'm just thinking back to the research that brought Jen
and I together as colleagues. Actually, and I'm going to
give another shout out to Amy Razniwski because she's the
reason that we met at a conference that Amy organizes.
But our initial research together was on nine to eleven
victims and love It. Of course, the writing about these

(29:46):
victims lives and working lives was based on interviews with
their loved ones, who often didn't really understand the work
from the inside. They weren't coworkers, they were family members.
So if you think about how much actually see the
work that your significant other does, maybe a little bit
more today when we work remotely, but rarely do we

(30:09):
get to see the office from the inside. And so
we did find in our research probably a disproportionate level
of attributions of work as a calling in a sense,
because we hypothesize that the close relations of the victims
of the attack in a sense romanticized the work of

(30:32):
their loved ones. They wanted to remember them as having
worked at something that they loved doing with people that
they loved doing it with.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
And I really I appreciate that. I can completely see
how that would be. I love the work that you've done,
by the way, I'm such a fan of that. When
it comes to looking at these different ways that people
relate to their work, I think I want to mention
too that my meaning. My research for my dissertation and
then my post arc research was on meaning and work
and identity. I want to understand how people experienced meaning

(31:04):
in their work and how it related to their sense
of self. And so I found five modes when I
did my dissertation. But then when I layered in the
depth the kind of meaning along Maslow's hierarchy, and I
looked at so that was the you know, the meaning levels,
then also the affect whether it's positive or negative. What
I found were fifteen modes of engagement and they were

(31:26):
anywhere from the most. Most most engaged was transcendent connection.
Connection people felt like they were doing work where they
were helping to elevate or connect people to a higher
source or God or whatever. And then next living your purpose,
which is the one that I experienced today, and at
the very very end, the most negative is existential crisis.

(31:46):
So I thought it was interesting that that Amy's work
does sort of align with some of that. I could
probably plunk several of my modes in there, but when
you add the negative balance in there, it becomes something else.
It's really kind of interesting. So anyway, amazing stuff. We
can talk more about this some other time, but that's
my research. I do want to cut to a break,
but unless if you want to say anything before we
go on our break, just.

Speaker 5 (32:08):
That I found. I mean, what I have read about
your research I think is fascinating and I do really
like that hierarchy. So Christopher and my nine to eleven
research sort of challenge. We often talk about job career
calling and that an order of hierarchy or an order
of importance, and the nine to eleven research sort of

(32:31):
challenges that and says, even a you know, a job
could be valuable if it provides for one's family or
a means to a valuable end, but I think your
typology is much more. That hierarchy really is built in
in a much more intuitive way. So it's just something
I appreciate about it. Thanks Jen, I appreciate that I

(32:53):
loved it. Obviously, it's a it's truly, it's truly a
passion of mine. Okay, let's grab our last break. I'm
your host, doctor Early Cortes. We've been on the air
with doctor Christopher Wong Michael Sen, a philosopher with twenty
five years of experience advising business leaders pursuing meaning and
providing work for a purpose, and doctor Jennifer Tostikarus, who
teaches researchers and coaches others about what it means to

(33:14):
craft a meaningful career and appreciate the risks and rewards
of work as a calling. We've been talking about the
differences between meaning and purpose and really getting into the
nitty gritty of purpose.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Excuse me of meaning. After the break, we want to
talk about the pros and the cons of pursuing a calling.
We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Doctor Elise Court has as a management consultant specializing in
meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps
companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop
purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused culture that elevate fulfillment
performance and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or
to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please

(34:07):
visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how
to get your employees working on purpose. This is Working
on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program
today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an
email to Elise A Lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now

(34:31):
back to working on Purpose. Thanks for stating with us,
and welcome back. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I
mentioned in the last break that my one of my
books came out recently. It's called a Great Revitalization. What
I did for you is I created a very simple
three page assessment. It's free that you can pull off
my Gusto dash Now site and will help you understand

(34:54):
the extent to which today your culture is meeting the
discerning needs of today's workforce. If you are just joining us,
my guest are doctor Christopher wrong Michaelson and doctor Jennifer
Toasty Krus, the authors of the Meaning and Purpose of
Work and Interdisciplinary Framework for Considering what Work is for.
So I think people will be really interested to hear.
This is some of the notions of both. I think

(35:14):
most people will probably think that there's only pros to
pursuing a calling, and I think it's valuable that you
have distinguished that there are some very very strong cons
which do you want to talk about?

Speaker 5 (35:24):
First? Yeah, well, let me start with the reason that
everybody thinks that callings are so positive, and boy do they.
And that's in part because we have this very strong
cultural message, find your calling, love your life, do what
you love. The money will follow. Steve Jobs telling people,
you know, the only way to do good work is
to do what you love back in a Turn of

(35:45):
the Millennium commencement speech speech at Stanford, and so people
just sort of and it makes an intuitive sense.

Speaker 4 (35:52):
You know.

Speaker 5 (35:52):
There's all these studies coming out now that I think
are fascinating about people in positions of power within organizations,
and they're sort of lay theories, if you will, about
the calling oriented employees being the good employees and wanting
to evaluate them better, promote them, faster, pay them more.
So again, this is a cultural message that's out there

(36:13):
and that really does have I think some legs within organizations.
And of course let me also say by way of
framing that certainly an alternative to meaningful work. Meaning less
work or drudgery, or work that feels like there's no point,
no recognition. It makes the world a worse place, you know,
all these things that are sort of if we were

(36:35):
to say the theoretical opposite of work as a calling,
you know, we don't want that either. So I'm not
here to say no, calling's bad and we should all
embrace like meaning less work. The way I want more
to phrase it is that a calling can be an
extreme orientation toward work. That extreme can come with extreme pros.

(36:56):
But we are having a one sided conversation if we
don't talk about the extreme cons And it's kind of
similar to how people talk about things like you know,
I mean basically any any cognition, any personality, trait, any attitude.
You can sort of have this one side of it
and then another side of it.

Speaker 4 (37:15):
Right.

Speaker 5 (37:15):
So I'm, you know, a hard worker, but then do
I sometimes work too hard and I don't know when
to you know, put the work away. And it's like
that with work as a calling. So you know, I
and others have done studies that have really linked a
calling at work to feeling overall that life is both
sort of better. You're you're living a better life and

(37:35):
a more purposeful life. And I mean, in some ways,
maybe we could say, if that's the end goal, that's
all we need to know. But there are other I
think more like hidden and insidious ways potentially that work
as a calling can to some extent maybe erode an
otherwise good quality of life. So one of those would
be through workplace relationships. So we talked earlier about you know,

(37:58):
congruins with a spouse and all that kind of things.
But just as as a calling can make us have
very high standards for our work, and maybe we put
in more effort and perform better, which the research backs up,
we can sometimes be selective and when and how we
do that, and judgmental of others and even of our organizations.

(38:18):
So the calling, because it's so meaningful, because it's so
deeply held, because it's so important to me and central
in my life, and I might even see it people
have described it as a moral duty. What it means
to do less than one hundred percent, or to see
anyone else in the organization doing less than let's say,
one hundred and fifty percent. I don't like that if

(38:39):
I have a very strong calling, I might judge that
I might have unhealthy workplace relationships, strained relationships with you know,
people at the same level and different levels as me,
and that might come out in ways that are like
not that adaptive for the organization. The other then, is
that personal cost to myself?

Speaker 3 (38:59):
Do I know?

Speaker 5 (39:00):
How I mean? The positive side is to say, oh,
the calling oriented employees, they will always go above and beyond,
which the research backs up they will, but they'll do
so even at a cost to themselves. So it could
be a literal cost, like I'm more likely to be
the one to show up and do the extra work
for no additional pay, nights, weekends, whenever you need me.

(39:23):
At what point does that either strain relations at home
or create a you know, sort of unsustainable even maybe
exploitative situation at an extreme and at what point am
I not looking out for my own health and well being?
So re search backs up that employees with stronger callings
have trouble detaching from work at the end of the

(39:45):
work day. They are thinking about work, sometimes ruminating about
work even at night, waking up with less energy. Physical
and mental health can decline. So again, this seems a
little bit at odds. You know, on one hand, we're
saying calling can be so so beneficial for all these
same factors, and it's really sort of that tipping point

(40:05):
where can you draw the healthy boundary and at what
point does deep engagement go into potential for burnout? And
I just think that's a that's a you know, that's
part of our cultural conversation now too, is a conversation
about drawing boundaries and burnout. And again, you know, Covid
led us all to think, Okay, I'm working from home
now but working more than ever. So I just, you know,

(40:27):
I want to sort of caution people as much as
we as much as we want our work, you know,
to not be meaningless and to have meaning, there can
be some unexpected things that come with us just to
be unguard for m hm.

Speaker 4 (40:43):
So one thing I love about this conversation is that
I'm learning and discovering as we have it. Jen and
I have talked about these phenomena a million times, and
of course we've written about them together, but I've never
heard Jen express calling in such an Aristotelian way to
use a big word. So Aristotle famously had this table

(41:04):
of virtues and vices, and the virtues were always in
the mean between the extremes. So, for example, courage is
a virtue, but too much courage is rashness, and not
enough courage is cowardliness. And I was just thinking, if
work is a calling is a virtue, what's the extreme

(41:26):
where there's too much of it? And that is Victor
Frankenstein Mary Shelley's character of you know, this guy who
creates life from lifeless parts in order to make this
scientific breakthrough, and in the course of doing so, ruins
his relationships, ruins his community, ruins the life of the

(41:46):
being that he's created. And then, if I'm thinking about
what is a deficiency of work as a calling, another
literary character I think of is Melville's Bartleby, who just
stops doing his work altogether and says I prefer not
to when asked to do that work, and dies sad
and alone. So I think this idea of calling as

(42:09):
a healthy balance is probably where we ought to be
instead of encouraging such an excess of it.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
And that's that's our next book, folks. Okay, well, well
we got to come back. Remember that this is you
got to break the record of four. So so what's
interesting just layer and we layering in one more bit.
For me when it comes to the world of calling,
is for my own experience, is that there's so much
fulfillment in it, in the idea and that which is
so it's like an elix, sir, it's and it's a

(42:38):
drug and and of course you know, getting the feedback
this is what I needed, this is what I needed
kind of thing, and it's it's just it does feel
like it's such a social good, it's such a it's
a it's a good beyond myself. So that is probably
part of you know, what keeps me going so strongly
is I keep getting you know, more and more of

(42:59):
that wonder full drug of fulfillment and it just it
just keeps the train going. So we haven't really talked
about that part of it, but that's a big part
of it as well. I would say I.

Speaker 4 (43:09):
Think calling it a drug is really insightful because there
is a sense in which a calling can be addictive.

Speaker 5 (43:16):
Oh very much so, no question.

Speaker 4 (43:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (43:19):
I think the addictive married with the morality, the perceived
morality of a calling, gets us into lots of fascinating
territory for sort of callings going you know, too much,
too little judgments. It's I think it's fascinating.

Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yeah, And this kind of get us into where I
want to go next is there's a part of it,
for at least for me where I really feel like
when people tell me how much it helps them. So
that feeling like I'm being of service, that's such a
strong And what I know, of course from the world
of loco therapy is that we humans are at our
best when we are helping. Where we are serving other people,
that's when we're at our best. So to get to

(44:00):
serve it your best, at your highest possible place feels
all of that's this wonderfully vicious cycle that keeps feeding itself,
so the drug gets stronger and stronger and stronger. So
one of the things that you did say in the
book that I thought was really interesting. I wanted to
go here next for a little bit of time we
have left, is you know the importance of seeing the
positive effects of our work on others. And so when

(44:22):
we can actually see oh, that's the that's the that's
the end game of our work. This is where it
actually landed. That can increase our meaningfulness. So if you
could say a little bit about that.

Speaker 5 (44:33):
Yeah, we reference in the book pretty famous study by
uh just happens to be another work management professor Adam
Grant and colleagues where they found that even in an
otherwise very mundane, very you know, kind of the lowest
level job, we can imagine a job that probably a
lot of us all would like to avoid telemarketing that

(44:56):
in the in this case it was college students who
are fundraised but you know, still cold calling alums and
asking for money. Again, these are the calls on my
phone that I kind of you know, skip no offense
to my you know, my institution. But that when they
were fundraising for scholarships and met the scholarship recipients, there

(45:18):
was a tangible increase because you might say, oh, scholarship recipients,
that's inherently meaningful, that's you know, no need to pump
that up. But there was a significant boost in both
in basically every metric of success. You can imagine time
spent on the phone, number of calls, amount fundraised, you know,
amount per person, and an aggregate and all these kinds

(45:39):
of things based on and by the way, this was
a brief meeting with these beneficiaries. And I think that's
the single biggest actually a lease what you just mentioned,
single biggest when people when I go giftalks and organizations
and the question invariably comes up, how can I make
my work seem more meaningful like my same job that
I have today? That's always my recommendation. Try to find

(46:00):
who is that? And sometimes it's an ultimate and beneficiary,
several steps are removed, or sometimes it's based on again,
let's say the purpose of your company and that you
doing your job well helps your company, which in turn
in turn advances that purpose. But what what is made
better because of your work? And I think all too

(46:21):
often in our daily office jobs we can lose sight
of that bigger picture. And so just that either you know,
interaction with someone who's you know, life was made better
or changed or helped by the work I do can
really help and can really show again like measurable productivity
and motivational increases.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
It's power, no questions to do. Seeing who it is
you know, going looking for who who is actually being
helped by my work is very very powerful. And then
leaders and organizations can do a lot too by setting
up the way that they do their business and their
culture to usher in and bring in like Striker does
the medical device company, it will very frequently bring in
patients who have been either helped by the medical devices

(47:04):
that they've been implanted with or that have saved their lives.
And so that all employees can hear how their work,
whether they're in accounting, whether they're in marketing, whether they're
in R and D, contributed to that person is still
standing here. And that's powerful, really powerful, And.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
I think the reality of the human being that's being
helped is part of the power. Because I'm listening and
thinking about what did I do wrong when I was
a management consultant and I was trying to motivate a
team to make their way through long, boring lists of
financial disclosures in the interest of saving the world by

(47:42):
loaning money to developing countries. And what I did wrong
was I didn't bring them to developing countries where the
work was being done. I just told them about it
from a windowless conference room. And that is much less
powerful than seeing the actual and beneficiaries of one's work,
and even.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
Videos of what they were doing in their lives, I mean,
would make a big difference. Okay, so you two. We
could talk about all these kind of things for hours,
and I do know one of you us to go
to a class. You know, this show is listening to
why people around the world, and the people that are
listening to this podcast probably really care about meaning and
how to find more of an experience more of it.
What would you each like to leave them with?

Speaker 5 (48:22):
Well, we I mean, I think I just said it,
and I'm trying to think of a better way to
say it. So I think if I think it is
possible to find more meaning in your work, I mean, certainly,
if you feel like your work is at a you know,
sort of at a deficit or a decline, uh, it
is probably time to take more extreme action. But often

(48:44):
just thinking about you know, what is it in the
daily task, the variety of things you do that brings
you the most joy. You know, you you feel it's
the most meaningful, and then the other side has the
potential to help or make it difference or have meaning
to someone else. Try to do more of those things,

(49:05):
or try to interact more with the people who either
bring you joy or help affirm that meaning. And I
think the other is if you are in a job
where you're saying, and this is the outcome of our
nine to eleven research. You know, I'm in it for
the money, and I really want to fuel the meaning
in my life that takes place outside of the workplace.

(49:26):
My job allows me to do that. That's okay, that's
still a meaningful life. But then just make sure am
I being paid enough to fuel that? You know, whatever
my goals are outside of work, am I being paid fairly?
Am I? You know? I mean there are all these
sort of considerations that then go along with that. But
in the spirit that calling doesn't need to always just

(49:47):
sit in the privileged part of the hierarchy. There can
be very meaningful jobs and careers as well.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
Beautiful, I wish very briefly just if we have to close.

Speaker 4 (49:57):
But yeah, I'll second everything that Jen said. But also,
if you are looking for a job with purpose, there's
often a perception that that comes at a trade off
with pay, and that might be a false dichotomy. Try
to make it a false dichotomy. But if it's not
a false dichotomy, If there is a trade off between
purpose and pay, then don't put pressure on yourself to

(50:19):
always find both in one position, or you might be disappointed.
If you can find them both over the course of
your working life, you're a very fortunate person.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
It is so wonderful to no both, to you, to
learn from you, to be inspired by you, to be
connected to you. Thank you for coming back on working
in purpose, and you'll come back again with the next book.

Speaker 4 (50:37):
Yes we can wait.

Speaker 5 (50:39):
Bok it originated here, so thank you Elise and likewise,
Oh goodness, I want to hear more about that.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
Okay, listeners and viewers, you are going to want to
learn more about doctor Christopher Wong Michaelson and doctor Jennifer Tostiicatis,
their book and the work that they do. So visit
Christopher wongmichaelson dot com. So Christopher standard spelling Wong is
this middle name Wong and Michael an Iccha E l
Son Christopher wongmichaelson dot com. Last week, if you missed

(51:06):
The Life Show, we were on air at doctor Zach
mccurio talking about his latest book, The Power of Mattering,
How Leaders can create a culture of Significance. He helped
us understand the power of all leaders assuming that people
don't feel seen, heard, or appreciated, and then acting accordingly
to assure they do. Sounds very simple, but it's very powerful.
Next week will be on the air of Sebastian Page,

(51:28):
the author of the Psychology of Leadership. Timeless Principles to
improve your management of individuals, teams, and yourself. Promised to
be another fascinating and inspiring conversation. See you then, and
remember work is one of the best adventures and means
of realizing our potential and making the impact we crave
and can give us the opportunity to do business in
a way that betters the world. So let's work on Purpose.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four C. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
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