Leading in Chaos for High Performance: Wisdom Straight from the C-Suite

Leading for high performance in today’s complex, ever-changing world takes seeking out and drawing on a wealth of guidance from experts who can help you “see around corners” you didn’t even know existed. A leader in eleven successful mergers, transformations, and reinventions himself, Ken Banta has tapped into the wisdom and experience of a dazzling array of C-Suite leaders who provide perspective on navigating tariffs, government upheaval, and immigration crackdowns while blazing forward.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
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make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose?

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Anyway?

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People
ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their
talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave
being part of an organization that inspires them and helps
them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be
such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.
In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help

(00:52):
usher in this world we all want working on Purpose.
Now here's your host, doctor Elise Cortez.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has
been brought to you with passionate a pride since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for Tunadian this week. Great to
have you. I'm your host, doctor Release Courts. If we've
not met before and you don't know me, I'm a
course advisor, organizational psychologist to management consultant, logo therapist, speaker
and author. My team and I at gusto Now help
companies to alignment and fortify their operations by building a

(01:26):
dynamic high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nursering managers activated
by meeting and purpose. You can learn how to work
with us and what we offer at gustodeshnow dot com
or my personal site at lease courtes dot com. Getting
into today's program, we have Ken Banta, who is a leader,
a leader in eleven successful mergers, transformations and reinventions, including

(01:49):
pharmacia sharing, Plow and Bausch and Lohm. At the Vanguard Network.
He has built a unique organization that brings experience, dynamic
top executives together for unfettered, uncentered, censored, and highly interactive
exchanges around leadership. He's the author of Seeing Around Corners
c C Wisdom from America's Insightful Leaders, which we're talking
about today. He joined us from New York City Ken.

(02:11):
Welcome to Working on Purpose.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
It's great to have you. I thoroughly enjoy this beautiful
book you brought into the world. In fact, I did
reach out to I think all of the contributors on
LinkedIn to connect with them, and I had one of
your contributors, Wes Adams, on my podcast. I think it
was a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
O terrific.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
So I really really appreciate what you did. It's delightful.
So I want to start by let's just start with
what you're doing. I love the idea of the Vanguard Network.
Can you kind of help us understand that because it
seems to me I'm wondering if that's how you've met
several of your contributors. But what's the Vanguard network?

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah, thanks for asking. The Vanguard Network really emerged out
of the work that I did in those turnarounds and
transformations that you mentioned in a prior life of mine
as an executive in some of these very large but
very troubled companies, and we were very successful in turning
them around in a positive way, in the sense that

(03:12):
not to dismantle them, but to actually turn them into growth.
Engines again and so after that period I was advised
by a couple of the previous people I'd worked with
it wouldn't it be an interesting idea to apply some
of these insights to helping other executives and companies. So
that's how Vanguard was created back in twenty fourteen. We

(03:33):
started out initially working with Life Science as leaders and
the focus though has always stayed the same, which was
to help develop leadership capabilities and insights among senior people,
and then also through our advisory side, to work with
some of them on their own company turnarounds, transformations or

(03:57):
personal leadership. So that was the genesis of Vanguard, and
then in the past roughly ten years, we've expanded what
we do to include General counsels and their deputies, and
you know gcs play really important and growing role in companies.
We also have a dedicated group now of life sciences CEOs,

(04:19):
and we recently launched a network of executives in risk management,
which cuts across sectors. It's not to any one one
one one person or one one role, but often people
in everything from compliance to finance to the General Council's
office can be involved in risk. So we have a
kind of a multidisciplinary group on that network. So those

(04:41):
are the two things we do, networks of these senior
people and then also advising some of them on their
own leadership.

Speaker 4 (04:48):
Brilliant. You must have just famulous company that you get
to keep.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, it's exciting, it's you know, very stimulating people. And
the topics that we cover are usually very very hot
topics because those are the things that are on the
of these senior people.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
Awesome. Well, what I thought we could do for our
conversation here, Ken, since your book is a collection of voices,
I mean, I don't know how many voices that were
in there, but you have them arranged by chapter by topic.
So what I wanted to do was just for some
of the chap chapters particularly that called out to me.
There was a couple of people in there in their
perspective that I thought perhaps we could call out, and

(05:22):
I didn't want to hear your perspective too, if you
had something you wanted to say on the matter. So
the first one, of course, is on leadership and success.
I did grab one of your quotes from there. I
don't know if you want to start with that, sure,
go ahead, So you say there is a special challenge
for founders of companies to continue their journey to the

(05:42):
next level and maintain success. And in fact, the track
record is not good for founders leading their companies into
a third or fourth or fifth year. Very often, as
we know, they get derailed. And it's so sad because
we all start with such conviction, such passion, such determination.
Then the numbers are we crashing for why is that?

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Well? I think there's a few things going on there.
In some cases there's an opportunity to reinvent yourself as
a leader, which doesn't happen, and that can be one
cause of failure. As circumstances change or as the demands
for bandwidth grow, some leaders succeed in reimagining what they

(06:23):
are and how they'll work. A good example would be today,
some leaders who may even be you know, in their
in their fifties or sixties, may have figured out how
to connect with the new generation of Gen zs and
able to get on their wavelength. Others really are kind
of stuck in the past. They may find this generation
frustrating or somehow you know, not the way they used
to be, which I always think is a kind of

(06:44):
an indicator that they they themselves have sort of passed
their sell by date, but the same, you know, but
others do that very well to that. And there's a
there's a c I worked with in the past on
a number of these turnarounds and transformations named Fred Hassen
who's still really a legendary figure in the world of CEOs,

(07:05):
and during a meeting we asked him his view about
how to deal with the gen zs. And this is
someone who's in his seventies now, and he had one
of the best answers I've heard from anyone in a
long time. So you have to really treat this generation
with great care because they had to grow up during
COVID and go to college during COVID, and during a

(07:27):
vast technological revolution that they're in at the moment that
we're all facing with generative AI and all the other things.
So you know, you've really got to see them for
who they are and also have to really work hard
to help them succeed because they are the future. So
you know, that's the right kind of it.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
I like that while we're on that subject, Ken, let's
just go ahead and jump to you. I really thought
this was fantastic and I have, of course, am a
champion for making sure that everyone is fulfilled and succeeds
in the workplace, all generations, all people. And I love
this quote that you have that is given through Paul Hastings,
the CEO of Nikarta Therapeutics. He says, he says, He says,

(08:07):
he said, some guys stood up in some meeting apparently
and said, I don't know about the rest of you guys,
but I don't know how to manage gen zers. I
don't know how to manage millennials, and read says. I
looked at him and said, then get the hell out,
because your company's full of generations Zers and millennials, and
if and if you don't want to deal with them,
you should get out. All dogs need to learn new tricks.

(08:28):
And the tricks about Generation Z is that they care
whether they're They don't care whether they're LGBT or straight.
They have pronouns and words for everything, and I think
it's wonderful that's what they want. And so we as leaders,
if we want millennials and want gen zers, guess what
we have to learn that language.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah, well, I think Paul is a great CEO in
many respects. I think that that's really a not only
a kind of admirable point of view, but it's a
very practical point of view. You know, you can't escape reality.
And to be a CEO who has sort of decided
they an't going to have anything to do with the
next generation of people, is is a sort of bizarre approach. Certainly,

(09:09):
you know that that would be the kind of approach
I think we're going to not not be necessarily very successful.
And back to that question, I don't know what the
generation was of that person who said those things, but
you know, it might be that they were you know,
sort of let's call it more tenured person. But that
kind of you know, reaction to an entire generation of
people who are you know, the future of your businesses

(09:31):
is I think really kind of counterproductive. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
I do too, I do too, Head and sand for sure.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:37):
I actually had a I was speaking at HR Southwest
conference here last week and there was a conversation about
gen z ers, and even Johnny C. Taylor said some
remarks about gen zers, and I thought, well, these different
conversations were along the same tone of you know, you
can't do anything with gen zers, and I reached out
to a CEO friend that I know down in Houston

(09:58):
and asked, Hey, you know you run a very large
e commerce organization. I know you have all kinds of
gen z Ers and Milendos in your organization, as has
been your perspective, And he said no, he said, my
experience is that gen z and millennials want purpose. They
want to be able to live their values. They want transparency,
they want meaningful work, and they want to be able

(10:19):
to enjoy their fuller lives. And if you can appeal
to that, they're pretty darn good workers.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yes. And also, I think we all get a little
confused between a certain generational factor of characteristics that we
associate with gen Zs or that are associated with them
a certain attitude or way of operating. And I think
that's something that just gets confused with the fact that
they're all in a certain age of their life. And
so any of the people who are very critical about

(10:44):
gen Z's should probably recollect what they were like at
twenty one and just and think about it, because I
think a lot of people grow out of some of
the habits that bother people. You know, for example, you
know gen Zs are often associated with being very opinionated
and very willful and very uh uh judgmental of other people.
And you know my own feeling about that as well,

(11:05):
that's pretty much the way I was when I was
at agent. I. You know, maybe I'm still a bit
like that, but you know, people do mature, and I
think that's probably what we're going to see with this
generation as well.

Speaker 4 (11:15):
That is a fresh perspective. And thank you for that.
That's really fresh. Let's let's go on to the next
topic here and there when you have a chapter on
making a great leader, and I think there's a there's
one particular contribution in there that really called me because
it really spoke about the need for leaders today to
get tough feedback. If you have some perspective, you want
to add.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
To that that they need to seek out tough feedback.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, got tough feedback yet and receive it?

Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yes, Well take it in the further up you go
in any organization, whether it's you know, the Boy Scouts
or or a or Microsoft, you're going to get more
and more isolated from reality. And so I think really
really good leaders make a special effort to stay connected.
And one of the best ways to be connected is
to hear uh, you know reality right, And Romsharan, the

(12:02):
Great Strategic Advisor, wrote an entire book on confronting reality,
And I think that's really what tough feedback essentially provides.
It's probably tough, but fair would be the right way
to look at it. I don't think you benefit from
really imaginary bad feedback, but realistic tough feedback I think
is really useful in terms of, you know, what are

(12:22):
people really thinking, what are people really saying? How do
people respond to the way you operate? You know, I've
had my own team explain to me that I tend
to dominate the conversation and have an answer for a
lot of things, and I should actually just ask some questions.
So that's, you know, perfectly legitimate, and I'm glad they
raise it. But you know, when you become a CEO
of a very large organization, it's unfortunately very hard to

(12:46):
get that kind of honest feedback. And I would say though,
also that really good leaders bring people around them who
will provide that kind of input, And in a way
it's the sort of commentary on your leadership of all
you have around you are yes people.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
No doubt, no doubt, You're reminding me ken I had
a guest on I don't remember when it was sometime
back who his name is Jeff Wetzler. He wrote a
really fantastic book about the power of the feedback that's
constantly availble to you and around you if only you'll
tap into it. So learning how to ask people, hey,
how'd that go? How did this land for you? Making
it safe for them to give you real candid feedback,

(13:21):
and then making them feel that you really appreciate their
contribution and that you recognize it, and then you make
that part of your culture. That becomes pretty powerful.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
I think a lot of that kind of behavior can
be almost turned into a trademark for your leadership. And
a good example for me is that in one of
these past companies that I was part of, in fact,
in several, we made a habit of going out to
country operations or field operations, to manufacturing sites or to

(13:55):
markets outside the US or in the US. And the
first thing that we did, I think it was a
you know, symbolically important was to not go talk to
the leadership team, but to go have a meeting with
the people who are on the front lines, whether it's
the manufacturing people or the salespeople, and we then had
a very sort of an sop of always inviting them

(14:16):
to provide their thoughts and feedback on how the company
is operating. Not feedback really about, you know, how top
management operates, but their insights about how we're doing, what
we could do better as an organization, and in some
cases asking their opinions about how that country that they
work in or that manufacturing plant could be could be improved.
But you made a point of always telling them that,
you know, they can check the record. There's never been

(14:39):
anyone who was fired or demoted because of something they said.
And we kept those conversations confidential, but they were really valuable,
and you know, the word of mouth was terrific because
of course, for every you know, ten people that were
in the room, there were probably another couple thousand that
heard about it. And you know, that type of session,
just the fact that it occurred is really incredibly valuable.

(15:02):
But how you run those meetings is really important. And
I'm working on another book where I learned a few
things from Mary Bera, the CEO of General Motors, and
she seems to have a really astonishing capability of getting
into a room with people at the working level, and
rather than telling them what she thinks about things, or

(15:23):
just taking Q and a about, you know, where the
company is going and what it should be doing, she
always asks, as I understand it shows, ask what's the
biggest problem that you see us facing right now? Whatever
that may be in your field of work. I mean,
not trying to come up with cosmic problems, but problems
that are getting the way of us succeeding in the
area that you're in. And then they spend the rest
of that time working with her on what could be

(15:45):
done about it, and she'll then always circle back to
ask how could she help them with what they're trying
to achieve and what is that? How are we doing
on solving that problem? And you know, it's both a
symbolically really important thing and also practically because that does
actually get things to happen.

Speaker 4 (16:01):
Celtics kind of leader that most of the would like
to work for.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, I'm sure
she's got her issues, but on that front, from what
I can tell, really effective in a huge organization like that.
Of course, she's not going to talk to more than
a fraction of the employees any one year, but by
doing it in a purposeful way like that, I think again,
the word of mouth must be terrific.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
Mm hmm, indeed not know. Let's grab our first break.
I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortez. We're on the air
with Ken Banta. He's the CEO of the Vanguard Network,
a unique organization that brings experienced, dynamic top executives together
for unfettered, uncensored, and highly interactive exchanges around leadership. We've
been talking about some of the topics and the people
that he's featured in this book. After the break, we're

(16:42):
going to we're going to tackle on leading with purpose
and also culture. Will be right back.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

(17:24):
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working on purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise A.
Lisee at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to Working on Purpose.

Speaker 4 (17:54):
Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As I
too embedk to help create a world or organizations thrive
because they're people thrive and they're led by inspiritual leaders
that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we
do business that betters the world. I keep researching and
writing my own books. So one of my latest came
out called The Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose

(18:14):
can radically in liven your business. And I wrote it
to really help today's leaders understand the diverse and discerning workforce.
What do they want in need to be able to
give you their best and want to stay. And then
I offer twenty two best projects to equip you to
provide that for them through your leadership and your culture.
You can find my books on Amazon or my personal
site at least coorretest dot com. If you are just

(18:35):
joining us. My guest is Ken Banta. He's the author
of Seeing Around Corners, Wisdom from America's Insightful Leaders. So
I would be completely remiss ken if we didn't talk
about leading with purpose, and I wouldn't I I couldn't
let I let you off the show without that. And
I appreciated the contribution by doctor Jeremy Levin, the CEO
of is it OVID Therapeutics OVID Therapeutical Therapeutics. Essentially the

(19:02):
gist that I got from, and if you wanted to
comment or expand, was that today today our society is
driven by meaning and purpose. They want it, and of
course what they really want and their organizations and their
leaders is to make sure that that they walk that
talk it's actually real.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yes, I think Jeremy is a terrific CEO, and I've
known them for some time. I think that the concept
of leading with purposes is very important. It is probably
important that would also say to put in front of
the word purpose, sort of meaningful and ethical purpose, because
you can lead with purpose but down the wrong road,

(19:39):
and you know, you see that all the time in
companies as well as countries, and so I do think
that's important, just like the concept of leadership is in
itself not a it's a value free concept. It can
be very negative or very positive. So when people talk about,
you know, inspiring leadership, I think it's often important to
sort of reflect on exactly what are you talking about?
You know, is it leader ship that's leading to a

(20:02):
better place or is it leadership that's leading to a
darker place. So that said to I think it's it's
really again one of those roles that only a senior
leader and probably the top leader in an organization can
do is to help establish what that purpose is. They
ought to do it in consultation with others, including the
people at the working level, but ultimately it's that's one

(20:23):
of the I think the most important jobs of a
of a of a CEO, or a leader of an organization,
even a leader of a you know, of a of
a photo club or anything else. They need to They
need to help convey why why we exist essentially and
what we're going to if we do what we do,
what what are we going to deliver? And it's usually
more complicated than you think.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
I completely agree. We love doing that work ourselves. Yeah,
And the other thing that I would add to that
that I think is so powerful and that many organizations
are missing is once they have in conjunction with their
with their with their people articulated and defined that the
purpose is that they then help enroll and align their
employees to that purpose through their values. Do that right?

(21:07):
And now?

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Yeah? Absolutely? And the other thing I think that I
think you'd probably share on this viewpoint as well, is
that it's not enough to have this attack to the wall,
which is what often happens nothing else occurs. You've really
got to then figure out how you're going to operationalize it.
And so that's a huge task and it's not enough,
I think, to simply kind of so called walk the

(21:31):
talk on that when you've got to figure out how
it's actually going to get transmitted and really in some
way instilled into the DNA of the organization. And there
are a lot of different ways to do it, but
it really requires a lot of kind of tenacity and
also sort of inspiration in terms of how to make
that stick. And again I think you know, for every

(21:51):
person who leads an organization that does that, they're probably
ten or twenty that don't, and I think that's unfortunate.
Same thing goes for branding. I have a very good
friend who runs Straight Line, a global branding company. His
name is Michael Watris, and I think he finds it
sometimes quite disappointing that the really terrific branding work that
they do, that you know, captures where the organization ought

(22:12):
to be and how it should be seen, doesn't always
get translated into action and they can't control that. But
I think it's, uh, you know, it's it's unfortunate when
that doesn't happen. On the other hand, when you do
have terrific branding of the kind that they generate and
it does get really picked up and and and and
embedded in the in the in the DNA, you know,

(22:32):
then you have a really powerful, powerful impact.

Speaker 4 (22:36):
Agreed. And you know, I over the years have had
so many fantastic guests that have contributed and expanded my knowledge
and the way that we practice and are consulting around that.
And doctor carlosre At of Barcelona really has some great
work around helping to really operationalized purpose around the head,
art and the hands as you do that. And you literally,
I love your word operationalized. We use that too. You

(22:59):
really can oragialized purpose throughout the organization. And here's the
cool thing, you can actually measure how purposes lived through
those three aspects. So you do that, now you know
where the problem is and where you need to address
it in the organization.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
That's terrific. And you know, the other thing that I'm
sure we've both seen is how important it is to
have the purpose really be genuine. In other words, there
are organizations that you know, sort of manufacture a sense
of direction or purpose that isn't really believable, and I
think that actually causes more harm than having none at all,
you know, and I'm really thinking of, you know, examples

(23:36):
where I'm not thinking of a specific law firm, but
you know, you can always imagine a law firm that
says that, you know what, we are the best possible vendor,
not even vendors, but we've gone from being a vendor
to a peer advisor to our clients. And you know,
if that doesn't resonate with the people in the organization,
which it probably wouldn't, you then really sort of undermine

(24:00):
and your external credibility, but you've also undermined your internal cohesion.

Speaker 4 (24:05):
Mm hmm. Yeah. I've actually had interviews with with with
employees who were part of oorizations, who whose purpose was
not being lived. In fact, just the opposite was it was.
It's incredibly debilitating for people. And then back to your
point too about it not being clear. When I was
speaking at the HR Southwest conference, I did a workshop
as well on helping that participants on just what we've

(24:27):
been talking about here, how to be able to detect
and embed this better purpose into your culture etctera, And
there were sobody in there who struggling, And I said, well,
what's what's the purpose of your company? And she said,
to provide great customer service? And I said, what's the
name of company? What was it that you actually do?
And she said, we provide warranties. And I said, well,

(24:48):
I think that you have a value on customer service,
but your purpose is to provide peace of mind? Yes
she said, and she said, I we don't think about
it that way. So like that would be a real
opportunity to start to turn on some of the soul
in that organization who maybe can get excited about just
great customer service, but can get and get behind the
idea and helping people sleep better at night.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yes, and potentially much more real as well. And you know,
again I think back to the front line people. They
usually I wouldn't say they always know best, but they
know at least as well as top management what things
like that should be and what will resonate, you know,
not only with themselves, but with the people that they contact,
who are the customers of the organization or the stakeholders.

(25:32):
And so it seems to me as a bit bizarre
really when you hear about purpose statements or other things
being created either in a vacuum or being created by
an external agency together with the senior management team. Right
at some point there's a missing link here which is
everybody else. And that'll help you, you know, not only
will you get buy in, but of course you'll get

(25:53):
you know, you'll get mid course correction because people will
say who actually are in the warranty side of things?
They will say, well, we aren't. We don't do customer service.
We do peace of mind. And that's the message that
should be heard at the top.

Speaker 4 (26:06):
Indeed, so much that we can talk about it here,
I appreciate getting to talk with someone who's been involved
with so many organizations and turnarounds and transformations and really
understands the value of this. Let's move on, since I
think we've done a pretty good job of dealing with
the culture and that conversation. Let's talk about innovation. I
think you have one of your remarks on there I

(26:27):
grabbed here. You say that I think strategy is somewhat overrated.
The world is changing too quickly at having a three
year strategy is sometimes meaningless. Having a sense of purpose
and where you're going with your organization and then being
very agile about how you get there, and especially making
sure that the people in the organization understand what the
purpose is and that you can get there. So kind

(26:48):
of related to what we've been talking about here, But
now I think it's really interesting to focus that whole
conversation on innovation if you want to add a little
more color to that.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
Sure, I think what I've observed, both in inside companies
and then working with executives on their companies, is that
the whole concept of innovation sometimes can be First of all,
you know, very narrow people think of innovation as something
that happens in a lab or with some sort of
scientific endeavor. But what you know, I've seen is that

(27:19):
innovation can happen, you know, in the administrative assistant role.
There can be innovation in sales and marketing. There can
be innovation also in the role of senior management and
how they interact with people or how they do their job.
So I think innovation is you know, there's lots of
different ways of defining it, but I think, you know,
one way that I've heard that resonates with me is
it's a way of doing things better and more and

(27:42):
better and faster and differently. And so you know, if
you think of those criteria, then an awful lot of
things are innovation. And also a lot of things that
organizations do or not innovation. And sometimes that's the problem
is that they're not you know, thinking around the corners,
and they're not looking at the way the environment is
changedging there's uh you know, I think that especially in

(28:03):
a time of intense uh change, which I think we're
in currently, you know, change environments I think go like waves.
You know, there's not there's change all the time, but
then they're increasing uh waves and pressures that arise, and
I think, you know, we're in one of those now
for sure, on lots of fronts. That's the time when
innovation becomes even more essential because you've got to be

(28:25):
able to uh, you know, move agilely and come up
with new ways to do things, new ways to get
to where you're going. And in that element, I think
it's not that strategy is a bad idea, but I
think it can get overrated because people talk about sticking
to their strategy when really perhaps they need to be
sticking to their to their goal and then how they

(28:46):
get there is going to change possibly by the day. Yeah,
very you know, you need the agility, you need the adaptability,
and I think that's something that you know, and nimbleness
and that those are things that you know. If you
look at strategy in the wrong way, it becomes kind
of a jacket. Well, you know, we said we were
going to do it, and we have a five year plan,
so we're going to do things for the next five
years just like that. But if the five year plan

(29:07):
is to actually be add and adaptive, then you know,
that's a different kind of strategy.

Speaker 4 (29:14):
Just so much in this conversation, Kim so so happy
to meet you, cross paths, learn from you, connect with you.
You have a contributor in your book named Gina Cox,
who's an organizational psychologist and the author of Leading Inclusion,
and I appreciated her perspective on the real value of diversity,
and specifically, what she was saying that I could really

(29:34):
really get behind is that people what they really want
they don't want but belonging per se, they don't want
diversity per se. What they want is respect. And that
made a lot of sense to me. That resonates with me.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
Yes, I think very highly of Jenna. I think that
another way of thinking about diversity as well is that's
what really matters is something that's connected to innovation, which
is diversity of ideas and experiences, and that's not really
based on you know, quotas of people of a certain
color or a certain gender or other things. Those If
you pursue the goal of diversity of thought and experience,

(30:11):
then you'll get those other things as a result of it.
But that's, in my mind, shouldn't be the driver. And
so I do understand the discomfort some people have with
what appear to be quotas for different things. And in fact,
Jena it's a good, good example someone who really doesn't
go for that type of approach at all. She's much
more nuanced about what diversity really is. And as you said,

(30:32):
part of it is that sense of people being respected,
and in my mind, another piece of genuine diversity is
that diversity of ideas and diversity of experience, which will
then lead to other types of diversity, but not the
other way around. And you know, so you're not are
you going to get a more diverse and innovative organization
by simply hiring, you know, fifty percent more people of

(30:52):
a certain background. No, But if you aim to diversify
the inputs into the organization, the other part of it
will follow.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
I love that amazing. I can't argue with that at all. Again,
another sort of fresh take on the matter. I appreciate
that very much. Ken. Let's talk just a little bit
about the on the role of General Counsel. I have
to say I was very taken by surprise when Greg
Baker of the General councilor for a Giant Eagle, says

(31:22):
that he says, I think that he's talking about the
role of that of General Council as the conscience of
the company. I have never been seen it. I've never
thought about it that way. Ever. Perspective on the role
of General Council, especially as a conscience.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
Well, one thing for sure, I think is that the
role of the GC has grown overall in lots of
different directions over the last five or six years and
probably even beyond that, but certainly those this last five
to six year period. It's certainly never restricted to being
the chiefly officer. But I think now more than ever before,

(32:03):
the GC is is someone who plays a strategic role
in the organization and a role as a advisor and
as a as a as a business decision maker for
the organization. It used to be said that gcs would
be a business partner, meaning they kind of supplied some
form of support to the functions that brought in the
income or did other stuff, But I think that view

(32:25):
is now becoming a bit outdated, and really the GC
is a co leader of the business. That idea of
being a conscience for the business is absolutely right. I
think they play it a very important role of sort
of identifying what the moral compass of the organization should
be and to you know, call out things that are
being done in a way that is not appropriate. And

(32:47):
there's a couple of gcs I know who have said that.
You know, they've often had some very uncomfortable conversations with
their CEO about behavior of either the CEO or the
board or the leadership team because they felt that they
were bordering on doing things that were not as ethical
as they would want. And you know, usually those things
weren't being done on purpose. They kind of fell into it.

(33:07):
But that was the role of the GC to close
the door and say, you know, I really have to
tell you that that's not the way things should be done.
So that's one aspect of that GC role. Another very
important aspect of it is more and more, i think,
providing a kind of strong direction to even the commercial
elements of the business. And very interesting. A guy who's

(33:32):
one of the really most tenured gcs named Tom Savatino,
who's i think just finished his ninth role as a
general counsel, which is probably at nine times more than
most gcs, said that his approach to working with business
leaders in business is to not come in with direction

(33:55):
or guidance, but to ask questions. And he said, by
asking the right questions, you can get people to rethink
what they're doing and you can help to redirect the decisions.
But the way to do it is by asking questions.
Because as a GC, you come in with you know,
zero street credibility necessarily as a business operator and you
have no real authority over the decisions that these groups

(34:17):
are making. But you know, he pointed out that if
you approach in the right way, you have tremendous impact
by by asking the right questions.

Speaker 4 (34:26):
Tremendous ask Rubbert. Our last break here, Ken, I'm I'm
your host, Doctor e releas core Test. We only air
with Ken Banta. He's the CEO of the Vanguard Network,
a unique organization that brings experienced, dynamic top executives together
for unfettered, uncensored, and highly interactive exchanges around leadership. We've
been talking about some of the key aspects of the
book that especially appealed to me and how this show works.

(34:50):
After the break, we're going to cover off on environmental
and social impact as well as work life balance, among
other matters. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

(35:33):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise A. L Se at elisecortes dot com. Now back

(35:57):
to working on Purpose.

Speaker 4 (36:03):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. As you
know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.
If you want to learn more how we can work
together and what we offer at the gust Now Academy,
you can go to Gusto dashnow dot com and then
go to the training tab and you'll find the information
there if you're just now joining us. My guest is

(36:25):
Ken Banta. He's the author of Seeing Around Corners c
See Wisdom from America's Insightful Leaders. So I realized we're
moving fast through with this conversation. I do want to
move on to I think let's go straight to work
life balance. I really liked the entry and here from
let's see James Harrington, who's the chief Global Intellectual Property

(36:46):
Council for Radius Health. I like how he essentially is
talking about leading by example. So what that means is
that if he in his case, do you have somebody
that you want us to get to a game or
a soccer game, and you want to show that I'm
going to this, I'm leading the office and I'm going
to go see my son soccer game. Just showing that
is a way to be able to cascad it through

(37:06):
the organization. So I thought that was very powerful. Is
leading work life balance by modeling it?

Speaker 3 (37:14):
I think it's very important. And of course, in today's
environment where everyone can work remotely from anywhere, it can
on one hand, enable a lot of flexibility in your
working environment and balance between work and other things. And
on the other hand, it can cause you to be
working all the time no matter where you are, and

(37:35):
so I think it does take a lot of I
think a lot of discipline in fact, to find the
right way to stop doing that and going on to
other things. Especially important, I think if you're a very
senior person in an organization, because your behavior is what
other people will model, and if the head of the
unit or the head of the organization is sending out

(37:59):
emails all day and night. Other people feel like they
have to do that as well. And I'm certainly, really
quite often guilty of doing that, and I've realized that
I've got to, you know, for example, do simple things
like put a new time on the delivery for something
that I may be working on later in the day.
There's no reason for it to go out at eight pm.

(38:19):
It can go out at eight thirty am. And I'm
not always good at remembering that. But that's one of
those important things that I think people need to do.
And on the other hand, it's interesting that in some
organizations people will find it worrying if the especially if
the C for example, is really working nine to five.

(38:40):
They really do expect them to be working longer than that.
So I think sometimes it's partly it's behavior, and sometimes
it's being really quite transparent about what's going on, you know,
to the tune of you know, as CEO, I do
have to work on the weekend, and I am going
to do that, but you do not have to do that,
and I don't expect you. And that's before honest than

(39:01):
saying everyone around here is going to work only you
know their tools will drop at five pm because people
will see that you didn't do that. On the other hand,
if you're quite transparent about why you in a particular
role need to work even different hours, perhaps maybe you're
going to not be visible, you know, from two to
four in the afternoon because you're doing something else, but
you will be working from eight to ten by especially

(39:22):
if you're someone who's in a lead leadership role, it
can often be just very effective to explain that context.
And that's not quite role modeling, it's kind of role explaining.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
I like that, especially you know that situating that, hey,
part of my job is to work on the weekend.
That's what I signed up for. But if we're not
saying it's yours, I think that's that's very very powerful,
and not just once saying that, but that's an ongoing
discussion or part of the conversation. That makes a lot
of sense to me.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
Yeah, and probably I've seen some very good senior leaders
call people out in a really nice fashion, you know,
good fashion of saying, well, I just sort of saw
you sending me an email on Saturday. And while I
may send out emails on Saturday, I really don't want
to see one from you and not sending a that's
set in a much more of a kind of supportive

(40:12):
fashion than angry. It's just saying, you know, I really
want to make sure that people in your kind of
role don't feel compelled to send me emails on Saturday,
even if I sent one to you.

Speaker 4 (40:25):
Moving on now to a really critical topic that's near
dear to our heart as well, and that's the idea
of empowering people. What we know, of course, is we
look at the global and employee engagement rate, it's twenty
one percent. In the US it's thirty one percent. There
is a reason for that, and there are a lot
of organizations that really swash the drive the initiative of
people and don't empower them. And you have several interest

(40:49):
in your chapter on this, and I could go into one,
but I would just start. I'd love to start with
your perspective on how to empower people and why it's important.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Well, I think that it's important in certain respects for
people to feel like they have value in what they're
doing and feel like they are working in a way
that they can go home and tell people was meaningful.
So Wes Adam So I think you had on the show,
has written an entire book on meaningful work, and so

(41:22):
I think empowerment is either a subset of that or
the other way around. But I think that's very, very important.
So that's why empowerment is important to the individuals. On
the other hand, and it may or may not be
the right word, you know, empowerment sometimes conveys certain control
over things which people may not actually feel or have,

(41:44):
So it may be that sometimes there needs to be
different kind of nomenclature. And while in our book we
talk about empowerment, it may be that, you know, what
Wes has talked about about meaning and work might be
even more sort of universal, because you can have meaningful
work even if you don't have a lot of power
over it. If you, for example, are working in a

(42:05):
nonprofit that does great things for people, your role is
as a assistant to somebody. You may not have a
lot of power literally over the environment that you're in,
but you have a tremendous amount of meaning to what
you're doing, and that may be the thing that makes
you feel like you want to come back the next
day and get up in the morning. So there's I

(42:26):
guess the nomenclature is important, the words. The other aspect
of empowerment or meaning in work is, of course, you know,
it does generate better work. So if you're a person
running an organization, whether it's a for profit or nonprofit
or something else, you know, it really does literally, you know,
pay off to have people who feel like this is worthwhile,

(42:47):
so you have a kind of it's one of those
things where you should be able to have a virtuous
circle where people feel like what they're doing is really meaningful,
and in turn they do better work because they feel
like they want to. The other final aspect I mentioned
those that you know, sometimes people really you know, employees
in certain sectors or maybe in certain roles, want to

(43:09):
see limits on how much empowerment they have. They they
see their job, as you know, not the main part
of their life, and they want to be there for
eight hours a day, but they don't want to be
taking control of things. They don't want to be overly
responsible for certain things. I've had people working with me
who did a great job, but they really were not
interested in responsibility in a certain sense. They wanted to

(43:32):
avoid for lots of good reasons, they didn't want to
be responsible for outcomes. And so you know, I think
you have to you have to draw a fairly nuanced
line through that word of empowerment, because I think in
some cases it can scare people. You know, they don't
they don't want to be empowered the way you want
them to be empowered.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
Yeah, very very very good point, indeed, and West actually
we did talk about that when we were on. When
we were on, we did discuss it. I also have
James rut coming on who wrote the archetype Effect, and
he's identified six motivators at work, and one of the
groups is the operators, and that that would probably describe
a lot of what you're talking about. We need them

(44:10):
very important part of organizations. It moves very differently. So
I think that's really important not to assume that everybody
wants the same thing, just like in the course of
the generations and everything else we're talking about here.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Yeah, the several of the organizations I've been in have
talked about the importance of having a players, and you know,
that's that's valuable up to a point. But if everybody
is a person who's taking initiative and making decisions and
demanding more and wanting to rise up in the organization.
You know, you're gonna have a you're gonna have a
dysfunctional place. There's room for what are so called, you know,

(44:44):
maybe not in a positive sense, described as the bees
and the c's. But if you change it around to
say the operators, Uh, those are people who really make
things happen. Do they have ambitions to run the unit
or the company? No, but if everyone did, we'd.

Speaker 4 (44:59):
Actually have a right Indeed. Indeed, well, speaking of this conversation,
we're really talking also about building the team and staffing.
That's how I started in this industry, like twenty eight
years ago, was recruiting and staffing. So I like the
contribution that Andy Broemberg, who's the chairman of Echo. I
think it is he says, we use a principle at

(45:20):
Echo called hell yes or no. And so the the
question is if it's about hiring somebody, should we bring
this person on the answer the two choices are hell
yes or no. I thought that that's fairly fairly funny.
But perspective on that that idea.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
Well, I think that you know, he's an interesting younger executive,
and he's built up some interesting things. I think as
you move along in at least you know, maybe more
layered organizations, you find that you know, you're you're probably
having a somewhat more nuanced approach to how you bring

(45:59):
people on. I mean they you know, there's a reality
is there's a very good chance that opinions are going
to be divided about a person. And so you know
as a as a and and people are probably going
to have pluses and minuses for how they will operate.
So you're typically I think, making decisions either. You know,
you're never going to get consensus about who's the best person.

(46:21):
So if you are the senior leader, eventually just have
to decide. You have to be prepared to compromise on
certain things. No one's going to be perfect. I was
just working with someone in a nonprofit that I'm on
the board of, and I was she's planning to bring
in a new person to work with her, and she
had a laundry list of things that this person ought
to be able to do. And you know what we
agreed in the end was, well, you know, let's put

(46:42):
those into buckets of A, B and C. You know,
A being top priority, be you know great, and C
you know, nice to have, because otherwise you're going to
be trying to find a person that doesn't exist, which
is who has all these capabilities, or they're going to
say they do and you'll be very disappointed. And then
the other thing you have to be prepared for is
even if you say yes to somebody, turn out to

(47:02):
six months later to realize that they're the wrong person,
and you have to have the insight to realize that
that happened, not necessarily that they're a bad person, but
it's a bad fit.

Speaker 4 (47:10):
Indeed. Indeed, we also have something in the book here
that they don't really have time to talk about, but
I do want to call it out. Is it's the
idea that many people organizations tend to hire ourselves. And
I discovered it when I was in recruiting too, Ken
when you when I was taking the wreck or dispect,
people would say, wow, want this business is businessness? And

(47:31):
what they would be describing, I'd look right up and say,
you want me to hire a clone of you? Oh no, no,
well that's what you just described. So I just want
to point that out as it's one of the many
evils and things that we just have to be aware
of and bring to our consciousness to do differently.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Yeah, I think it's related to that diversity topic, right.
I mean that if you hire nothing but people like yourself,
you aren't going to have the diversity of insights around
you that you need to have, and then you'll be disappointed.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
Indeed, indeed, well, well, this show can has listened to
by people around the world who are interested in either
elevating their organizations to a higher level like we're talking
about here, a more highly functional, becoming better versions of
leaders themselves, or are really trying to be able to
weigh in and contribute to the world of work in
a more positive way. What would you like to leave
them with?

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Well, I think that I would leave behind the thought
that while sometimes we think of leaders as people at
the top of an organization, I really think everyone is
a leader in different ways, and often most especially the
people who are at the working level, because they are
the ones who work with the stakeholders figure out how
to get things done and make things happen. And so

(48:41):
I think to me, that's the best concept, best definition
of leadership.

Speaker 4 (48:45):
Beautiful way to finish. Thanks for coming on working on purpose, Kein,
very happy to know you you really have taught me
a lot, you and your colleagues and inspired Thank.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
You thanks for having me. It was great to be
with you and I learned a lot as well.

Speaker 4 (48:58):
I'm glad I should be like that. So what doctor
Sue says, it should be like that? Listeners and viewers,
you're going to want to learn more about Ken Banks,
the Vancard Network and the book that he has out
Seeing around Corners. So I suggest a couple of things. One,
you can go to the main website, it's the Vanguardnetwork
dot nyc. You can also find him on LinkedIn, and

(49:19):
you can also directly email him at Kabanta at the
Vanguardnetwork dot NYC. Last week, give you missed a live
show you can always catch be a recorded podcast. We
were on the air with Marilyn Vetter, the CEO of
Pheasants Forever, a six hundred team championing habitat Conservation, talking
about Champanese culture as a leader's job with everyone else

(49:40):
having a hand. Next week, we'll be on the air
with James talking about his new book, The Archetype Effect,
Unlocking the six Types of Motivation. Network. See you then
and together, let's lean in and learn together. How to
make workplaces that work for everyone, and find ways to
do business in a way that betters the world. Let's
Work on Purpose.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.