August 5, 2025 • 51 mins
Mattering—feeling valued and knowing one adds value—is essential to mental health, wellbeing, and flourishing. How does one recognize mattering in oneself and others? Why does it seem so elusive in personal and professional life? What can individuals do to elicit it, how can leaders celebrate it, and how do we collectively embrace it to champion the world we can all thrive in? Guest: Dr. Isaac Prilleltensky
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Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
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make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now here's your host, Doctor
Relise Quartet.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passion and prize since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks tuning in this week. Great to
have you. I'm your host, doctor Elis Cortes. If we
have not met and you don't know me, I am
a workforce advisor, organizational psychologists, management consultant, loco therapists, speaker
and author. My team and I at gusterer Now help
companies to enligen and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,
(01:27):
high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nursery managers activated by
meaning and purpose. Many organizations are not aware of how
critical it is to invest in developing their leaders and managers,
not just for their own effectiveness, but also to avoid
burnout and keeping them fulfilled. Did you know that inspired
employees outperform their satisfied peers by factor of two point
(01:47):
twenty five to one. In other words, inspiration is good
for the bottom line. You can learn more about us
and how we can work together at gustodashnow dot com
or my personal site at least core test dot com.
Getting in today's program and we have with us today.
Doctor Isaac Priltenski, who holds the inaugural Erwin and Barbara
Mottner Chair in Community well Being at the University of Miami.
(02:10):
He has published twelve books in over one hundred and
forty articles in chapters. His interests are in the promotion
of well being in individuals, organizations, and communities, and in
the integration of wellness and fairness. He is the co author,
alongside his wife Aura, of the book How People Matter,
Why It affects health, happiness, love, work and society, which
we're talking about today. He Georges to Day from Miami,
(02:33):
Doctor Prilatinski, Welcome to working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Nice to be here. Thank you for the invitation. Claud c.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Bienvinedo.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I love that you know that you're from Argentina. Buenosaris
is one of my favorite cities of the.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Whole entire world.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I don't know how much where which city you hail from,
but that is one of my favorites.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
I come from Gordoa, but I acknowledge Buenos Aires is
in Levey City. Corda Bay is better.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
But okay, fair enough, I'll just have to go back.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Let's celebrate this beautiful book that you and or put
into the world.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
I really it was beautiful.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I learned so much, and I want to also think
our fellow colleague Zach mccurrihew. It was in his book
that I learned about your work, So I really am
glad to meet you and know you.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Likewise, it's nice to be here and spend some time
talking with you and talking to your listeners.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Wonderful, they're all over the world.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
So we will appreciate inspiring and with your with your
your your good education. So first i'd like to be
able to start by just asking you know how it
was that you decided or what led you into a
career in psychology. I mean, why not architecture, why not accounting?
What's what's it with the psychology stuff?
Speaker 4 (03:47):
So, like many other folks go onto a career, it
has a lot to do with your biography. I lost
my parents in a car accident when I was years old,
and that experience led me to believe that I could
(04:08):
share with other people how to become resilient, how to
overcome adversity. So I think from a young age I
decided that I wanted to put my own experience to
good use and try to help other people. So I
(04:29):
decided to study psychology in large part out of my
personal biography, in my history, and out of an interest
in not only helping, but also understanding what makes human
beings tick and do the things they do and pursue happiness,
(04:51):
and how comes some people are happier than others, and
what role the environment place in our own happiness. So
I was driven by both my personal story and by
questions about human nature.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I can very much appreciate that. And of course, then
we each have some very interesting niche areas. Mine has
been meaning in purpose, yours has been mattering, well being, fairness,
et cetera. How did you gravitate to those specific areas well?
Speaker 4 (05:26):
I have had the, I guess, the good fortune of
living in five countries. I grew up in Argentina, and
then I studied in Israel, Canada, I worked in Canada,
in Australia, then we came to the US, and I
have had the opportunity to visit many countries, work with
(05:47):
colleagues around the world, and wherever I went, I felt
I saw that people were driven, but I mattered by
the motivation to feel like they mattered. And we saw
(06:09):
all over the world, in a variety of occupations, across
social groups, religions, the cultures, languages, that people had this income.
We all want to feel valued and we all want
(06:31):
to add value, and that was the motivation to study
mattering and the role of feeling valued and adding value
in life, to feel valued by ourself and others, and
to contribute to add value to our own life but
(06:56):
also to the life of other people. And then we
decided to study how is mattering related to well being
and what are some of the precursors of mattering, what
leads us to feel like we matter. Well, it turns
(07:16):
out that conditions of fairness, when I experience fairness in
my home, at work, in the community, when I feel
treated with dignity, with respect, when I am giving a
chance to develop my potential. When there are conditions of airness,
(07:41):
people feel like they matter. Not only that, when people
feel like they matterer, their wellbeing goes up. So we
demonstrated that in studies with individuals and also in international
studies comparing countries. So it turns out that countries where
(08:06):
there are social justice policies that may citizens feel like
they matter, their happiness, quality of life, life sattisfaction, overall
well being goes up. So I'm interested in this triangle.
I call this the golden triangle formed by wellness fairness
(08:31):
and worthiness.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
M There's so many words that I could use to
describe that, Isaac, but I'm gonna go with yummy, a
yummy combination. Part of what also intrigued me about your work,
you do talk about this idea of human being driven
by some fundamental needs but also some fears. You already
said that we have need to feel value and the
(08:57):
need to add value, And of course we might recognize
that in gentlemen when people say things like I want
to make a difference, I think they're also adding their
the idea of adding value. But then you also talk
about two unique, pretty primary fears. If you could address
those for us, Yes, so.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
I think two fundamental fears are the fear of being devalued, ignored, excluded, marginalized,
like we don't belong. And there are a lot of
evolutionary reasons why human beings are wired to connect to
(09:39):
be part of a group, initially just to survive. Unless
we're part of a group. In the African savannah, if
you were not part of the group, nobody would protect
you from wild beasts and animals, and nobody would go
(10:00):
operate with you to fij you when you were hungry,
or to take care of you when you were sick.
But it's not only for survival reasons. It's also for
thriving reasons, because human beings thrive in the context of
social relationships. So one we're afraid of being the value
(10:21):
ignored longly, and two we're afraid of being helpless. That
for an encounter situation, and I feel out of control,
I feel anxious. There is a great deal of uncertainty.
Human beings don't like uncertainty. We like to know what's
(10:43):
happening with us. We like to know that I can
exercise self efficacy, mastery, autonomy, self determination. So here you
have the driving part of our existence, which is to
feel valued and to have value, and the corresponding fears
(11:08):
of feeling devalued and helpless.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Extremely well explained. I also really thought it was so
crisp that.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
You have it right out in your pocket. That gets
chapter one.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
You have the mattering wheel, which of course is comprised
of the two fundamental needs feeling value and adding value,
but also then across the four arenas of self, relationships, work,
and community. And I really thought that was also a
crisp way to describe this notion of mattering and where
might you feel great in life about mattering? Maybe where
(11:40):
it needs from shoring up.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Yes, so we are forever creating that we're on image
based on inputs we receive from other people. So the
mattering wheel consists, as you said, have you know the
feeling value and the adding value have and the feeling
(12:05):
value part of the will is fed by four sources.
What I think of myself? Do I value myself? Do
I have a sense of self work? But also do
other people convey to me the feeling that I am
a worthy individual? Starting with our own parents through a
(12:27):
healthy and secure attachment, creating a bond of connection with
our caregivers, and then it extends to our school, schooling experience,
spear group work, and community at large, and they all
interact right. So, ideally, if my parents provide a secure
(12:51):
environment for me to explore the world, to feel like
I can have a secure base from which to explore
or the world, and they provide me with the right
amount of supports when I feel threatened, maybe then I
(13:11):
internalize this confidence that I get from parental support and
I become more confident. Ideally, in my teachers, my peers
will reinforce their idea but the extent to which my
colleagues at work or my friends in the neighborhood will
(13:35):
value me depends on how much value I add to
their lives. So in the best of times, I am
able to contribute to other people in many different ways.
You know, we say that we can hape others, add
value to others through gifts of the head, the heart,
(13:59):
or the hand. You know, we can give them good ideas,
emotional support, or we can just help them with the
groceries or to cut the loan. Right, So there are
multiple ways in which we can help ourselves and we
can help others. If I'm helping others, ideally, they will
(14:19):
reciprocate and they will say thank you, Isaac. We value
you're volunteering in the community. We value your leadership at work.
We value everything you bring to this environment. So I
get reinforced and I want to do more of it.
This is a virtuous cycle, right. It starts with my
(14:41):
immediate environment, boosting my confidence, making me feel valued, and
then taking chances and contributing to others. That's in an
ideal world, and there are less than ideal circumstances. If
I grow up in a family where I don't feel value.
(15:02):
Then that generates a vicious cycle. I am not confident
to contribute to others because I'm used to being put
down by my parents and my siblings and my grandparents
and cousins. I don't feel confident. So why should I
raise my hand in classrooms just to feel rejected, to
(15:25):
feel to take a big risk, to be exposed for
what I don't know, or my failures or my shorts.
That creates a vicious cycle.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Oh, there's just so much in there. I want to
celebrate quickly because it's almost my first grab, first practice.
That you and your wife or have been married for
more than forty years and you have one son. And
I also know that among your other many many interests,
that you are well known and are published and do
(15:58):
work on humor.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yes, so you want me to talk about that.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
I want to know why where did that come from?
And why does it when you join?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Well, you know, most people develop hobbies over time. One
hobby that brings me joy and satisfaction and sense of
flow is writing humor. So I living in Miami. Miami
(16:35):
is a very colorful place, a very funny place if
you come with curious eyes. So just being part of
this crazy city inspired me to write about what I
(16:56):
see in my surroundings. So I started experimenting with some
humor columns, and I had a column for a while
for the Miami Herald and Miami Today local newspapers. And
I just found that that was very rewarding because when
(17:17):
you write it professionally, it's one type of writing. It's
very methodic, it's very logical, it's very analytical, it's very scholarly.
When you write humor, it's a completely different experience. Yes,
So I just found that I could make people laugh
(17:40):
in my lectures, my presentations, so I decided to nurture
that skill, and it brought me a lot of joy.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I'm going to comment and that when we take our
when we come back from Bradley Let's letter Less viewers
to a bit on this notion of being value and
feeling valued. That's been the basis we've been talking about here.
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. We run on the
air with doctor Isaac Perletenski, who holds the inaugural Edward
(18:11):
and Barbara Sorry Mountainer, I guess it is Chair and
Community well Being at the University of Miami. His interests
are in the promotion of well being and individuals, organizations
and communities, and in the integration of wellness and fairness.
And his latest book is How People Thrive, Promoting the
synergy of Wellness, fairness, and Worthiness. We're going to dive
(18:32):
deeper into some of these key areas that support his
work in the next segment.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps com
Copanyes's visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to
invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her
(19:14):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working
(19:38):
on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Thanks for sting with us and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host doctor Elise Cortes as I
am dedicated to helping create a world where organizations thrive
because they're people thrive w they're led by inspirational leaders
that help them find and contribute their greatness so they
know they matter and we do business that matters the world.
I keep researching and writing my own books. So one
of my latest came out recently. It's called a Great Revitalization,
(20:06):
How activating meaning and purpose can radically and live in
your business. I wrote to help leaders understand the needs
and wants it today it's very discerning and diverse workforce.
And then I provide twenty two as practices that you
can add or to equip you in your culture, to
give that to in terms of your culture and your leadership.
You can find my books on Amazon or my personal
(20:27):
site at leastest dot com if you.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
Are just joining us.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
My guest is doctor Isaac Prilatenski, co author alongside his
wife Aura, of How People Matter Might affects, health, happiness, love,
work and society. So we were talking about humor before
we went our break there. Isaac and I know that
you speak, of course Spanish as your native tongue English,
while Hebrew and a little Italian and maybe something else.
(20:51):
I also learned that if you can be funny in
a language outside of your own, there's something there.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
It's one thing to be funny in your own language,
but when you and be funny another language, there's something
to that, and it's it's really spectacular. So I haven't
written about humor as you have, but I certainly enjoy
being able to laugh and make others laugh.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Well, yeah, I think it's a unique experience to make
other people laugh. It's a wonderful way to add value,
you yes, experience, you know, to their life.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
I haven't thought about that way.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Thank you for that, and so I wanted to in
this segment get a little bit more distinctive about your
work here, Isaak. There's so many beautiful things about what
you have written about, and of course, many things that
I've come across in my study self efficacy, of course,
and all those kinds of things that were intriguing to me.
So one of the things that I thought was interesting
is you talk about how victims of injustice feel that
(21:50):
a psychological contract has been violated. And this gets into
your interest in fairness, et cetera. If you could talk
a little bit about this idea of fairness in justice
and how victims experience that.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Yes, so let's go back for a minute to a
basic definition of justice. So justice refers to people getting
their due do you e? In English? Do means people
(22:28):
getting what they deserve, their fair shake. And it turns
out that we all yearn to be treated with dignity
and respect. That is the psychological do do you e?
(22:49):
That all of us are owed by virtue of being
a human being? So, because we have this fundamental need
to feel like you matter and that you have significance
and importance in the world, when people treat you without
(23:10):
dignity and respect, it feels like they're hurting your basic humanity.
If you are not treated with respect, it means that
if fundamental breach has been perpetrated, you are not honoring
(23:33):
me as a human being. I feel disregarded, I feel dismissed,
I feel ignored. So it feels like an injustice because
I am out like everybody else respect and dignity, and
(23:54):
if you're not treating me with such compassion and care,
it feels like a lack of justice. This can feel
not only in the great scheme of society where there
is discrimination and racism and classism and inequality, but it
(24:16):
can also feel like that in the context of the workplace,
in our very own relationships with our spouses, with their siblings,
with their parents, with their closest friends. So fairness or
lack of fairness is not just an experience at the
macro level of social system, but also at the micro
(24:41):
level of close relationships and the workplace. So when we
are made to feel like we don't matter, we feel
like an injustice has been perpetrated, and that has very
serious consequences, which we can get into maybe later in
(25:06):
the show.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Oh, there's so much there, and I was very interested
to see that. I think you make a connection between
this kind of injustice because it's related to feeling exclusion.
We feel excluded in our basic community, isn't respected and seen,
And of course we see that all the time in
the workplace, when you can see people literally shrinking back
(25:29):
because they feel like they don't belong, they're in the
outside group, and it's terrible just ramifications for the individuals
well being in certainly for the productivity of the team.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Right. Absolutely, there is the misperception among many leaders in
the workplace that we are basically there to add productive
(26:02):
productive value without paying attention to relational value. But what
drives people the most at work is not productive value.
It's not where I bring how many widgets I can make,
or how many apps can I develop, or how many
(26:24):
toyotas we can building the plant, or how many houses
we can build and sell, or whatever product or service
you're rendering. What drives people at work is relational value.
First and foremost. Human beings want to feel accepted, honored, valued.
(26:50):
And once we do that, once we feel accepted, honored,
value recognize seeing then were provactive value goes right. We
should pay attention first and foremost to the relational value,
and not only then we can experience an increase in
(27:15):
productive value.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
And to that end, I'm kind of jumping around her
just because I know I won't have time to get.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
To everything I want to talk to you about.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
But I was quite interested, because I of course study
these things as well, but related to the need to
add value. Talking about being productive to add value, you
do talk about a couple of pretty well known psychological theories,
and that self determination and self effort adficacy, which we've
already talked about.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Can you speak a bit.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
To both of those when it comes to adding value,
especially in the workplace.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Right, So when you look at the second half of mattering,
which is adding value, you can see that there are
a lot of psychological theories that support the need to
exercise mastery and control over the world, over our environment.
(28:16):
So self determination is a psychological theory of well being
that really consists of mastery, competent or competence, autonomy, and relationships.
So two of the three components of self determination are autonomy.
(28:37):
I am a self directed individual, which speaks about adding
value to myself. I want to be the master of
my own destiny. I want to feel in control of
my presence and my future. And in addition to autonomy,
(28:58):
I want to feel competent, the second pillar of self
determination theory. What is competence all about? Competence is a
means of both feeling good about myself and also adding
value to the world. And I can be competent in
(29:20):
music playing the violin, and I can derive great satisfaction
from doing that, But I can also delight to audiences
with my music. So I'm adding value to myself and
I'm adding value to others. Now, self efficacy is very
closely related to competence, that I feel that I have
(29:43):
the wrewithal, the ability not only to achieve things, but
also to cope with adversity, that if I fall, I
can get up. This is what a growth mindset is
all about. This is what optimism is all about. Not
only that I will be always successful, because that's unrealistic,
(30:09):
but the fact that when I am not successful, I
can learn from experience and feel confident enough to get
up and keep going. And this applies not just to
work but also to personal circumstances. If I am facing
a chronic condition and illness, loss of a family member,
(30:33):
I need to feel capable that I can cope with
adversities of different types.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
And related to that, this is really fascinating to me.
Tout to Isaac, and that is you talk about how
helplessness and powerlessness emerge when we feel.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Like we cannot add value.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
And I certainly witness this when I'm working as organizations,
When people feel helpless, it's a horrible, atrocious thing to
witness and a human spirit. Can you say more about
helplessness and powerlessness?
Speaker 4 (31:09):
Well, just like feeling value, that having value are pillars
of happiness and well being. Helplessness and powerlessness are pillars
of misery. They go against everything human beings try to
(31:35):
achieve in the world. We try to achieve a measure
of control. We try to grow, We try to be
part of a community, a part of a work environment,
part of a family. And it's not coincidental that powerlessness
(31:57):
and helplessness are great predictors of depression and in some cases, suicide.
Because I feel that I'm running out of options, my
world shrinks. I cannot see opportunities. I don't have the
cognitive agility to brainstorm alternatives to my current predicaments, whatever
(32:21):
they may be. So as parents, as teachers, friends, managers,
political leaders, one of the most important skills i'm gifts
we can give other people is the gift of control.
(32:43):
People should have a sense of control over their lives.
This is why empowerment is so important. We want people
to experience what it's like to have a challenge, to
meet the challenge, and to overcome a challenge. For that,
(33:06):
we need to cultivate the environments where people have choices,
where people have the freedom to experiment with mastery and
autonomy in a climate of positive relationships.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
And this, of course is one of the many reasons
that micromanagement does not work. Let's grab our last break here.
We'll come right back to some good conversation. I'm your host,
doctor Elise Cortez. We're going in the air with doctor
Isaac Perlatnski, who really is focused on the idea of
well being and individuals, organizations and communities and in the
(33:44):
integration of wellness and fairness. He has a book out
that has just came out, which means you've got to
come back again and talk about that, Isaac, and that
is how people thrive promoting this synergy of wellness, fairness
and worthiness. After the break, we're going to talk about
how these concepts we've been discussing so far really show
up and manifest in the greater world at large as
well as in our workplaces.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(34:42):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise A. Lise at eliscortes dot com. Now back to
(35:06):
working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you
know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.
If you want to learn more about how we can
work together, you can visit the Gusto Now Academy. It's
for leaders and for individuals on various kinds of journeys.
You can find it at gustodashnow dot com and then
(35:33):
navigate to the training tap if you are just now
joining us. My guest is doctor Isaac Perlotenski. He's the
co author, alongside his wife Aura, of the book How
People Matter. Why It Affects health, happiness, love, work and society.
So I think I might have mentioned to you or
maybe in one of our interactions. As one of my
(35:54):
degrees is in logo philosophy, I'm a big fan and
follower of doctor Victor Frankel, and of course for me,
his work about really activating and nurturing the human spirit
is just so beautifully interwoven and correspond with the work
that you do. Do you have a perspective about his
work in logo philosophy or logo therapy?
Speaker 4 (36:15):
Well, yes I do, and I think what I find
most fascinating about Victor Frankel's work is the inspirational nature
of his work. As your listeners probably know, he was
(36:37):
a psychiatraist. He was taken to a concentration camp during
the Holocaust. His family was exterminated. They were killed by
the Nazis, But throughout his stay in the concentration camps
he found meaning in he helping other people. He found
(37:04):
meaning in preserving his dignity and the most horrendous and
in humane conditions, he was able to retain a sense
of humanity about himself and literally adding value with the
(37:30):
little that he had it to other prisoners like him,
other people in the concentration camps. Obviously, not everyone has
the wherewithal to withstand these conditions and exert self determination
(37:52):
and autonomy. But it shows that it is possible, and
if we extrapolate from Victor Frankel's experiences to our daily life. Thankfully,
most people don't live in concentration camps. It is true
(38:15):
that many people experience oppression and discrimination, but very few
people today experience what Victor Frankly did, So, in my mind,
is a call to action to promote the common good,
(38:37):
to promote wellness, fairness, and worthiness for everyone, not just
for the privileged few in society. So I find his
work both inspiring and educational at the same time. I
am also Jewish, and I also had in like many
(39:02):
many people have known many people who had to flee
Europe or perished in the Holocaust, and I just find
his war both personally relevant to my history and inspirational
for humanity at large.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Very much agree with that, in align with that natur Isaac,
and that really brings us to where I wanted to
go next, which was that was the opening to really
start talking about the way that your work really helps
us understand the greater world in which we live in.
And I was very, very very interested to see you
and read about this in your book. When you talk
about what your depression, disengagement at work, and divisive movements
(39:46):
around the world have in common, you say they all
reflect a.
Speaker 5 (39:49):
Lack of worth and lack of mattering.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
I think this is really critical for us to understand,
especially in today's climate that we're living in. It's incredibly polarized,
very divisive, and in my view, very very dangerous because
of that.
Speaker 5 (40:03):
Can you help us better.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Understand how what you've been writing and talking about and
studying helps us understand these really really big issues.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Yes. So, as you mentioned, when we ask ourselves, what
do this engagement, depression, even aggression, and radicalization have in common?
They share one origin, the fact that people feel devalue
(40:35):
in society. And when people feel devalued because of their
own skills, personality and the environments where they grew up
in and the networks where they participate, people can develop
to type of responses. They can develop internalizing problems like depression, anxiety,
(41:03):
low self esteem, suicidal thoughts. We call this an internalizing problem,
or they can develop an externalizing problem criminal behavior, aggressive behavior,
narcissistic behavior, all the way to radicalization and joining terrorist organizations.
(41:26):
Why is that when you feel ignored, that you've been rejected, excluded, ostracized,
marginalized by society, you will want to do whatever you
can to assert your self determination. Some people do it
(41:52):
in a pro social way, right. Some people will do
what Victor Frankel did that in the world the worse
possible circumstances, he was able to still act in pro
social moral ways. But there is another option. Depending on
(42:13):
your personality, your resilience, or the networks you belong to,
you may not always choose to do what Victor Frankl did,
but you may choose to join a criminal organization, even
a terrorist organization, that promises you a sense of belonging
and accept it. And people are so desperate to have
(42:37):
a sense of worth that they will even gravitate towards
terrorist organizations, radical groups, radical cults just because they make
you feel value. Just because they say, oh, you're good
with us here, come join our cult and work group.
(42:58):
You will feel part of thing larger than yourself. It
almost doesn't matter what the content is for as long
as they make you feel value. And that is how
many terrorist organizations around the world recruit new members. They
(43:19):
find people marginalized by society, lonely, unhappy people, and they
promise them glory and recognition through hineous acts. But it
doesn't matter that these are hineous acts, because they promise
you the sense of belonging and significance that you've been
(43:42):
looking for unsuccessfully in other parts of society. So I
just want to say, if we want to prevent criminal
behavior antisocial behavior in general, one of the best things
we can do is to make sure that everyone in
(44:02):
society feels valued and has an opportunity to contribute to
themselves and others, so they develop a sense of self
worth and they don't have to resort to look in
that sense of worth and value in antisocial groups.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Oh, there's so much I could ask you about that
coming to a cloture, so I want to get to
two other things before I hope I can let you go.
And one is you did an amazing job in a
way that I have only seen before explicating the.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
Rise of narcissism. Can you say a bit more about that?
Speaker 4 (44:43):
Well? As I mentioned earlier, when when you suffer from
lack of recognition and lack of worth, people will go
to great length to assert their importance sometimes they do
(45:08):
this in pro social ways, sometimes they do this in
antisocial ways. Right, and again, as I said before, it
depends on your personality, your competencies, your social emotional skills,
your emotional intelligence. But also it depends on the environment
where you grow up. So nowadays we live in a
(45:33):
highly individualistic culture that tends to promote narcissistic personalities. So
if I am not able to achieve a sense of
mattering in a healthy way, let's say, by helping others,
(45:54):
being a valued member of my family and community, being
I liberate war, or being just a supportive peer and friend.
When I feel that I don't have this healthy outlet
to add value, a lot of people just turn towards
(46:16):
a narcissistic way to feel like they murder. So it's
not enough for them to feel like they marter in
small ways. They have to feel like they marterer in
huge ways. They have to be the most important and
the center of attention, even if it comes at the
(46:38):
expense of minimizing the war and well being of other people.
They don't care because they're solely focused on regaining a
sense of mattering that may not have been provided to
them early on in life. So this is a classic
(46:58):
compensatory defense mechanism, a compensatory response that you are overdoing
what you did not experience earlier in life. And again,
it doesn't matter who are the victims, who gets in
the way of your grandiosity. You are just invested in
(47:24):
being the best, the most admired, the most talked about,
the most famous, the one with the most followers, et cetera,
et cetera. That is, needless to say, extremely toxic for
everyone around these people.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Well, and that's where I think we probably have to
finish here is if to me that the reason that
way is, I think that part of what you just
share there then informs how you differentiate between then culture
versus the WII culture. If maybe in a minute or so,
you could address that topic, and it's what's different about
them and why we maybe ought to embrace the weak culture.
Speaker 4 (48:08):
So basically, if there was a motto or a driving
force behind our Western culture, it would be a meek culture.
A mean culture says the following, I have the right
to feel valued so that I can be happy, the
(48:31):
emphasis on I have the right to feel valued so
that I can be happy. So then I asked, just
a minute, what about other people. What about not just
wellness but also fairness. So a weak culture is the
culture in which we all have not only the right
(48:56):
to feel valued, but also the response ability to add
value so that we can all experience not only wellness
but also fairness. So the difference is in a me culture,
it's all about having rights, feeling valued, and being happy.
(49:19):
That nurtures a narcissistic society. A weak culture where we
all have rights but also responsibilities to feel valued, but
also to add value so that we can pay attention
not just wellness but also to fairness. That cultivates a
(49:39):
culture of solidarity, caring, compassion, and mutual support. So I
rather live in a weak culture where it's not all
about me feeling valued, but it's rather about all of
us feeling valued and adding value by creating conditions of
(50:04):
fairness that leads to experiences of worldliness and outcomes of wildness.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
What a powerful way to finish the show, doctor Isaac.
Thank you so much for sharing your beautiful heart, your wisdom,
your work with us.
Speaker 5 (50:19):
It's a pleasure to have you on working in a
purpose and I do want to have you back on.
Thank you for coming on.
Speaker 4 (50:25):
Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 5 (50:27):
Very welcome listeners and viewers.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
You are going to want to learn more about doctor
Isaac Perletensky, the work he does and well being, wellness
and fairness. You can find him simply at professor Isaac
dot com. Last week, I give us the live show
you always catch it be recorded podcast wherever you get
your podcast, and see you next week for another nourishing
and inspiring conversation featuring another thought leader. Remember that work
(50:48):
is one of the best adventures and means of realizing
our potential and making the impact of the crave and
can give us the opportunity to business in a way
that betters the world. So let's work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now here's your host, Doctor
Relise Quartet.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passion and prize since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks tuning in this week. Great to
have you. I'm your host, doctor Elis Cortes. If we
have not met and you don't know me, I am
a workforce advisor, organizational psychologists, management consultant, loco therapists, speaker
and author. My team and I at gusterer Now help
companies to enligen and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,
(01:27):
high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nursery managers activated by
meaning and purpose. Many organizations are not aware of how
critical it is to invest in developing their leaders and managers,
not just for their own effectiveness, but also to avoid
burnout and keeping them fulfilled. Did you know that inspired
employees outperform their satisfied peers by factor of two point
(01:47):
twenty five to one. In other words, inspiration is good
for the bottom line. You can learn more about us
and how we can work together at gustodashnow dot com
or my personal site at least core test dot com.
Getting in today's program and we have with us today.
Doctor Isaac Priltenski, who holds the inaugural Erwin and Barbara
Mottner Chair in Community well Being at the University of Miami.
(02:10):
He has published twelve books in over one hundred and
forty articles in chapters. His interests are in the promotion
of well being in individuals, organizations, and communities, and in
the integration of wellness and fairness. He is the co author,
alongside his wife Aura, of the book How People Matter,
Why It affects health, happiness, love, work and society, which
we're talking about today. He Georges to Day from Miami,
(02:33):
Doctor Prilatinski, Welcome to working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Nice to be here. Thank you for the invitation. Claud c.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Bienvinedo.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I love that you know that you're from Argentina. Buenosaris
is one of my favorite cities of the.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Whole entire world.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I don't know how much where which city you hail from,
but that is one of my favorites.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
I come from Gordoa, but I acknowledge Buenos Aires is
in Levey City. Corda Bay is better.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
But okay, fair enough, I'll just have to go back.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Let's celebrate this beautiful book that you and or put
into the world.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
I really it was beautiful.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I learned so much, and I want to also think
our fellow colleague Zach mccurrihew. It was in his book
that I learned about your work, So I really am
glad to meet you and know you.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Likewise, it's nice to be here and spend some time
talking with you and talking to your listeners.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Wonderful, they're all over the world.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
So we will appreciate inspiring and with your with your
your your good education. So first i'd like to be
able to start by just asking you know how it
was that you decided or what led you into a
career in psychology. I mean, why not architecture, why not accounting?
What's what's it with the psychology stuff?
Speaker 4 (03:47):
So, like many other folks go onto a career, it
has a lot to do with your biography. I lost
my parents in a car accident when I was years old,
and that experience led me to believe that I could
(04:08):
share with other people how to become resilient, how to
overcome adversity. So I think from a young age I
decided that I wanted to put my own experience to
good use and try to help other people. So I
(04:29):
decided to study psychology in large part out of my
personal biography, in my history, and out of an interest
in not only helping, but also understanding what makes human
beings tick and do the things they do and pursue happiness,
(04:51):
and how comes some people are happier than others, and
what role the environment place in our own happiness. So
I was driven by both my personal story and by
questions about human nature.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I can very much appreciate that. And of course, then
we each have some very interesting niche areas. Mine has
been meaning in purpose, yours has been mattering, well being, fairness,
et cetera. How did you gravitate to those specific areas well?
Speaker 4 (05:26):
I have had the, I guess, the good fortune of
living in five countries. I grew up in Argentina, and
then I studied in Israel, Canada, I worked in Canada,
in Australia, then we came to the US, and I
have had the opportunity to visit many countries, work with
(05:47):
colleagues around the world, and wherever I went, I felt
I saw that people were driven, but I mattered by
the motivation to feel like they mattered. And we saw
(06:09):
all over the world, in a variety of occupations, across
social groups, religions, the cultures, languages, that people had this income.
We all want to feel valued and we all want
(06:31):
to add value, and that was the motivation to study
mattering and the role of feeling valued and adding value
in life, to feel valued by ourself and others, and
to contribute to add value to our own life but
(06:56):
also to the life of other people. And then we
decided to study how is mattering related to well being
and what are some of the precursors of mattering, what
leads us to feel like we matter. Well, it turns
(07:16):
out that conditions of fairness, when I experience fairness in
my home, at work, in the community, when I feel
treated with dignity, with respect, when I am giving a
chance to develop my potential. When there are conditions of airness,
(07:41):
people feel like they matter. Not only that, when people
feel like they matterer, their wellbeing goes up. So we
demonstrated that in studies with individuals and also in international
studies comparing countries. So it turns out that countries where
(08:06):
there are social justice policies that may citizens feel like
they matter, their happiness, quality of life, life sattisfaction, overall
well being goes up. So I'm interested in this triangle.
I call this the golden triangle formed by wellness fairness
(08:31):
and worthiness.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
M There's so many words that I could use to
describe that, Isaac, but I'm gonna go with yummy, a
yummy combination. Part of what also intrigued me about your work,
you do talk about this idea of human being driven
by some fundamental needs but also some fears. You already
said that we have need to feel value and the
(08:57):
need to add value, And of course we might recognize
that in gentlemen when people say things like I want
to make a difference, I think they're also adding their
the idea of adding value. But then you also talk
about two unique, pretty primary fears. If you could address
those for us, Yes, so.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
I think two fundamental fears are the fear of being devalued, ignored, excluded, marginalized,
like we don't belong. And there are a lot of
evolutionary reasons why human beings are wired to connect to
(09:39):
be part of a group, initially just to survive. Unless
we're part of a group. In the African savannah, if
you were not part of the group, nobody would protect
you from wild beasts and animals, and nobody would go
(10:00):
operate with you to fij you when you were hungry,
or to take care of you when you were sick.
But it's not only for survival reasons. It's also for
thriving reasons, because human beings thrive in the context of
social relationships. So one we're afraid of being the value
(10:21):
ignored longly, and two we're afraid of being helpless. That
for an encounter situation, and I feel out of control,
I feel anxious. There is a great deal of uncertainty.
Human beings don't like uncertainty. We like to know what's
(10:43):
happening with us. We like to know that I can
exercise self efficacy, mastery, autonomy, self determination. So here you
have the driving part of our existence, which is to
feel valued and to have value, and the corresponding fears
(11:08):
of feeling devalued and helpless.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Extremely well explained. I also really thought it was so
crisp that.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
You have it right out in your pocket. That gets
chapter one.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
You have the mattering wheel, which of course is comprised
of the two fundamental needs feeling value and adding value,
but also then across the four arenas of self, relationships, work,
and community. And I really thought that was also a
crisp way to describe this notion of mattering and where
might you feel great in life about mattering? Maybe where
(11:40):
it needs from shoring up.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Yes, so we are forever creating that we're on image
based on inputs we receive from other people. So the
mattering wheel consists, as you said, have you know the
feeling value and the adding value have and the feeling
(12:05):
value part of the will is fed by four sources.
What I think of myself? Do I value myself? Do
I have a sense of self work? But also do
other people convey to me the feeling that I am
a worthy individual? Starting with our own parents through a
(12:27):
healthy and secure attachment, creating a bond of connection with
our caregivers, and then it extends to our school, schooling experience,
spear group work, and community at large, and they all
interact right. So, ideally, if my parents provide a secure
(12:51):
environment for me to explore the world, to feel like
I can have a secure base from which to explore
or the world, and they provide me with the right
amount of supports when I feel threatened, maybe then I
(13:11):
internalize this confidence that I get from parental support and
I become more confident. Ideally, in my teachers, my peers
will reinforce their idea but the extent to which my
colleagues at work or my friends in the neighborhood will
(13:35):
value me depends on how much value I add to
their lives. So in the best of times, I am
able to contribute to other people in many different ways.
You know, we say that we can hape others, add
value to others through gifts of the head, the heart,
(13:59):
or the hand. You know, we can give them good ideas,
emotional support, or we can just help them with the
groceries or to cut the loan. Right, So there are
multiple ways in which we can help ourselves and we
can help others. If I'm helping others, ideally, they will
(14:19):
reciprocate and they will say thank you, Isaac. We value
you're volunteering in the community. We value your leadership at work.
We value everything you bring to this environment. So I
get reinforced and I want to do more of it.
This is a virtuous cycle, right. It starts with my
(14:41):
immediate environment, boosting my confidence, making me feel valued, and
then taking chances and contributing to others. That's in an
ideal world, and there are less than ideal circumstances. If
I grow up in a family where I don't feel value.
(15:02):
Then that generates a vicious cycle. I am not confident
to contribute to others because I'm used to being put
down by my parents and my siblings and my grandparents
and cousins. I don't feel confident. So why should I
raise my hand in classrooms just to feel rejected, to
(15:25):
feel to take a big risk, to be exposed for
what I don't know, or my failures or my shorts.
That creates a vicious cycle.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Oh, there's just so much in there. I want to
celebrate quickly because it's almost my first grab, first practice.
That you and your wife or have been married for
more than forty years and you have one son. And
I also know that among your other many many interests,
that you are well known and are published and do
(15:58):
work on humor.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yes, so you want me to talk about that.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
I want to know why where did that come from?
And why does it when you join?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Well, you know, most people develop hobbies over time. One
hobby that brings me joy and satisfaction and sense of
flow is writing humor. So I living in Miami. Miami
(16:35):
is a very colorful place, a very funny place if
you come with curious eyes. So just being part of
this crazy city inspired me to write about what I
(16:56):
see in my surroundings. So I started experimenting with some
humor columns, and I had a column for a while
for the Miami Herald and Miami Today local newspapers. And
I just found that that was very rewarding because when
(17:17):
you write it professionally, it's one type of writing. It's
very methodic, it's very logical, it's very analytical, it's very scholarly.
When you write humor, it's a completely different experience. Yes,
So I just found that I could make people laugh
(17:40):
in my lectures, my presentations, so I decided to nurture
that skill, and it brought me a lot of joy.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I'm going to comment and that when we take our
when we come back from Bradley Let's letter Less viewers
to a bit on this notion of being value and
feeling valued. That's been the basis we've been talking about here.
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. We run on the
air with doctor Isaac Perletenski, who holds the inaugural Edward
(18:11):
and Barbara Sorry Mountainer, I guess it is Chair and
Community well Being at the University of Miami. His interests
are in the promotion of well being and individuals, organizations
and communities, and in the integration of wellness and fairness.
And his latest book is How People Thrive, Promoting the
synergy of Wellness, fairness, and Worthiness. We're going to dive
(18:32):
deeper into some of these key areas that support his
work in the next segment.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps com
Copanyes's visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to
invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her
(19:14):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working
(19:38):
on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Thanks for sting with us and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host doctor Elise Cortes as I
am dedicated to helping create a world where organizations thrive
because they're people thrive w they're led by inspirational leaders
that help them find and contribute their greatness so they
know they matter and we do business that matters the world.
I keep researching and writing my own books. So one
of my latest came out recently. It's called a Great Revitalization,
(20:06):
How activating meaning and purpose can radically and live in
your business. I wrote to help leaders understand the needs
and wants it today it's very discerning and diverse workforce.
And then I provide twenty two as practices that you
can add or to equip you in your culture, to
give that to in terms of your culture and your leadership.
You can find my books on Amazon or my personal
(20:27):
site at leastest dot com if you.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
Are just joining us.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
My guest is doctor Isaac Prilatenski, co author alongside his
wife Aura, of How People Matter Might affects, health, happiness, love,
work and society. So we were talking about humor before
we went our break there. Isaac and I know that
you speak, of course Spanish as your native tongue English,
while Hebrew and a little Italian and maybe something else.
(20:51):
I also learned that if you can be funny in
a language outside of your own, there's something there.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
It's one thing to be funny in your own language,
but when you and be funny another language, there's something
to that, and it's it's really spectacular. So I haven't
written about humor as you have, but I certainly enjoy
being able to laugh and make others laugh.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Well, yeah, I think it's a unique experience to make
other people laugh. It's a wonderful way to add value,
you yes, experience, you know, to their life.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
I haven't thought about that way.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Thank you for that, and so I wanted to in
this segment get a little bit more distinctive about your
work here, Isaak. There's so many beautiful things about what
you have written about, and of course, many things that
I've come across in my study self efficacy, of course,
and all those kinds of things that were intriguing to me.
So one of the things that I thought was interesting
is you talk about how victims of injustice feel that
(21:50):
a psychological contract has been violated. And this gets into
your interest in fairness, et cetera. If you could talk
a little bit about this idea of fairness in justice
and how victims experience that.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Yes, so let's go back for a minute to a
basic definition of justice. So justice refers to people getting
their due do you e? In English? Do means people
(22:28):
getting what they deserve, their fair shake. And it turns
out that we all yearn to be treated with dignity
and respect. That is the psychological do do you e?
(22:49):
That all of us are owed by virtue of being
a human being? So, because we have this fundamental need
to feel like you matter and that you have significance
and importance in the world, when people treat you without
(23:10):
dignity and respect, it feels like they're hurting your basic humanity.
If you are not treated with respect, it means that
if fundamental breach has been perpetrated, you are not honoring
(23:33):
me as a human being. I feel disregarded, I feel dismissed,
I feel ignored. So it feels like an injustice because
I am out like everybody else respect and dignity, and
(23:54):
if you're not treating me with such compassion and care,
it feels like a lack of justice. This can feel
not only in the great scheme of society where there
is discrimination and racism and classism and inequality, but it
(24:16):
can also feel like that in the context of the workplace,
in our very own relationships with our spouses, with their siblings,
with their parents, with their closest friends. So fairness or
lack of fairness is not just an experience at the
macro level of social system, but also at the micro
(24:41):
level of close relationships and the workplace. So when we
are made to feel like we don't matter, we feel
like an injustice has been perpetrated, and that has very
serious consequences, which we can get into maybe later in
(25:06):
the show.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Oh, there's so much there, and I was very interested
to see that. I think you make a connection between
this kind of injustice because it's related to feeling exclusion.
We feel excluded in our basic community, isn't respected and seen,
And of course we see that all the time in
the workplace, when you can see people literally shrinking back
(25:29):
because they feel like they don't belong, they're in the
outside group, and it's terrible just ramifications for the individuals
well being in certainly for the productivity of the team.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Right. Absolutely, there is the misperception among many leaders in
the workplace that we are basically there to add productive
(26:02):
productive value without paying attention to relational value. But what
drives people the most at work is not productive value.
It's not where I bring how many widgets I can make,
or how many apps can I develop, or how many
(26:24):
toyotas we can building the plant, or how many houses
we can build and sell, or whatever product or service
you're rendering. What drives people at work is relational value.
First and foremost. Human beings want to feel accepted, honored, valued.
(26:50):
And once we do that, once we feel accepted, honored,
value recognize seeing then were provactive value goes right. We
should pay attention first and foremost to the relational value,
and not only then we can experience an increase in
(27:15):
productive value.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
And to that end, I'm kind of jumping around her
just because I know I won't have time to get.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
To everything I want to talk to you about.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
But I was quite interested, because I of course study
these things as well, but related to the need to
add value. Talking about being productive to add value, you
do talk about a couple of pretty well known psychological theories,
and that self determination and self effort adficacy, which we've
already talked about.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Can you speak a bit.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
To both of those when it comes to adding value,
especially in the workplace.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Right, So when you look at the second half of mattering,
which is adding value, you can see that there are
a lot of psychological theories that support the need to
exercise mastery and control over the world, over our environment.
(28:16):
So self determination is a psychological theory of well being
that really consists of mastery, competent or competence, autonomy, and relationships.
So two of the three components of self determination are autonomy.
(28:37):
I am a self directed individual, which speaks about adding
value to myself. I want to be the master of
my own destiny. I want to feel in control of
my presence and my future. And in addition to autonomy,
(28:58):
I want to feel competent, the second pillar of self
determination theory. What is competence all about? Competence is a
means of both feeling good about myself and also adding
value to the world. And I can be competent in
(29:20):
music playing the violin, and I can derive great satisfaction
from doing that, But I can also delight to audiences
with my music. So I'm adding value to myself and
I'm adding value to others. Now, self efficacy is very
closely related to competence, that I feel that I have
(29:43):
the wrewithal, the ability not only to achieve things, but
also to cope with adversity, that if I fall, I
can get up. This is what a growth mindset is
all about. This is what optimism is all about. Not
only that I will be always successful, because that's unrealistic,
(30:09):
but the fact that when I am not successful, I
can learn from experience and feel confident enough to get
up and keep going. And this applies not just to
work but also to personal circumstances. If I am facing
a chronic condition and illness, loss of a family member,
(30:33):
I need to feel capable that I can cope with
adversities of different types.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
And related to that, this is really fascinating to me.
Tout to Isaac, and that is you talk about how
helplessness and powerlessness emerge when we feel.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Like we cannot add value.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
And I certainly witness this when I'm working as organizations,
When people feel helpless, it's a horrible, atrocious thing to
witness and a human spirit. Can you say more about
helplessness and powerlessness?
Speaker 4 (31:09):
Well, just like feeling value, that having value are pillars
of happiness and well being. Helplessness and powerlessness are pillars
of misery. They go against everything human beings try to
(31:35):
achieve in the world. We try to achieve a measure
of control. We try to grow, We try to be
part of a community, a part of a work environment,
part of a family. And it's not coincidental that powerlessness
(31:57):
and helplessness are great predictors of depression and in some cases, suicide.
Because I feel that I'm running out of options, my
world shrinks. I cannot see opportunities. I don't have the
cognitive agility to brainstorm alternatives to my current predicaments, whatever
(32:21):
they may be. So as parents, as teachers, friends, managers,
political leaders, one of the most important skills i'm gifts
we can give other people is the gift of control.
(32:43):
People should have a sense of control over their lives.
This is why empowerment is so important. We want people
to experience what it's like to have a challenge, to
meet the challenge, and to overcome a challenge. For that,
(33:06):
we need to cultivate the environments where people have choices,
where people have the freedom to experiment with mastery and
autonomy in a climate of positive relationships.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
And this, of course is one of the many reasons
that micromanagement does not work. Let's grab our last break here.
We'll come right back to some good conversation. I'm your host,
doctor Elise Cortez. We're going in the air with doctor
Isaac Perlatnski, who really is focused on the idea of
well being and individuals, organizations and communities and in the
(33:44):
integration of wellness and fairness. He has a book out
that has just came out, which means you've got to
come back again and talk about that, Isaac, and that
is how people thrive promoting this synergy of wellness, fairness
and worthiness. After the break, we're going to talk about
how these concepts we've been discussing so far really show
up and manifest in the greater world at large as
well as in our workplaces.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(34:42):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise A. Lise at eliscortes dot com. Now back to
(35:06):
working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you
know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.
If you want to learn more about how we can
work together, you can visit the Gusto Now Academy. It's
for leaders and for individuals on various kinds of journeys.
You can find it at gustodashnow dot com and then
(35:33):
navigate to the training tap if you are just now
joining us. My guest is doctor Isaac Perlotenski. He's the
co author, alongside his wife Aura, of the book How
People Matter. Why It Affects health, happiness, love, work and society.
So I think I might have mentioned to you or
maybe in one of our interactions. As one of my
(35:54):
degrees is in logo philosophy, I'm a big fan and
follower of doctor Victor Frankel, and of course for me,
his work about really activating and nurturing the human spirit
is just so beautifully interwoven and correspond with the work
that you do. Do you have a perspective about his
work in logo philosophy or logo therapy?
Speaker 4 (36:15):
Well, yes I do, and I think what I find
most fascinating about Victor Frankel's work is the inspirational nature
of his work. As your listeners probably know, he was
(36:37):
a psychiatraist. He was taken to a concentration camp during
the Holocaust. His family was exterminated. They were killed by
the Nazis, But throughout his stay in the concentration camps
he found meaning in he helping other people. He found
(37:04):
meaning in preserving his dignity and the most horrendous and
in humane conditions, he was able to retain a sense
of humanity about himself and literally adding value with the
(37:30):
little that he had it to other prisoners like him,
other people in the concentration camps. Obviously, not everyone has
the wherewithal to withstand these conditions and exert self determination
(37:52):
and autonomy. But it shows that it is possible, and
if we extrapolate from Victor Frankel's experiences to our daily life. Thankfully,
most people don't live in concentration camps. It is true
(38:15):
that many people experience oppression and discrimination, but very few
people today experience what Victor Frankly did, So, in my mind,
is a call to action to promote the common good,
(38:37):
to promote wellness, fairness, and worthiness for everyone, not just
for the privileged few in society. So I find his
work both inspiring and educational at the same time. I
am also Jewish, and I also had in like many
(39:02):
many people have known many people who had to flee
Europe or perished in the Holocaust, and I just find
his war both personally relevant to my history and inspirational
for humanity at large.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Very much agree with that, in align with that natur Isaac,
and that really brings us to where I wanted to
go next, which was that was the opening to really
start talking about the way that your work really helps
us understand the greater world in which we live in.
And I was very, very very interested to see you
and read about this in your book. When you talk
about what your depression, disengagement at work, and divisive movements
(39:46):
around the world have in common, you say they all
reflect a.
Speaker 5 (39:49):
Lack of worth and lack of mattering.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
I think this is really critical for us to understand,
especially in today's climate that we're living in. It's incredibly polarized,
very divisive, and in my view, very very dangerous because
of that.
Speaker 5 (40:03):
Can you help us better.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Understand how what you've been writing and talking about and
studying helps us understand these really really big issues.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Yes. So, as you mentioned, when we ask ourselves, what
do this engagement, depression, even aggression, and radicalization have in common?
They share one origin, the fact that people feel devalue
(40:35):
in society. And when people feel devalued because of their
own skills, personality and the environments where they grew up
in and the networks where they participate, people can develop
to type of responses. They can develop internalizing problems like depression, anxiety,
(41:03):
low self esteem, suicidal thoughts. We call this an internalizing problem,
or they can develop an externalizing problem criminal behavior, aggressive behavior,
narcissistic behavior, all the way to radicalization and joining terrorist organizations.
(41:26):
Why is that when you feel ignored, that you've been rejected, excluded, ostracized,
marginalized by society, you will want to do whatever you
can to assert your self determination. Some people do it
(41:52):
in a pro social way, right. Some people will do
what Victor Frankel did that in the world the worse
possible circumstances, he was able to still act in pro
social moral ways. But there is another option. Depending on
(42:13):
your personality, your resilience, or the networks you belong to,
you may not always choose to do what Victor Frankl did,
but you may choose to join a criminal organization, even
a terrorist organization, that promises you a sense of belonging
and accept it. And people are so desperate to have
(42:37):
a sense of worth that they will even gravitate towards
terrorist organizations, radical groups, radical cults just because they make
you feel value. Just because they say, oh, you're good
with us here, come join our cult and work group.
(42:58):
You will feel part of thing larger than yourself. It
almost doesn't matter what the content is for as long
as they make you feel value. And that is how
many terrorist organizations around the world recruit new members. They
(43:19):
find people marginalized by society, lonely, unhappy people, and they
promise them glory and recognition through hineous acts. But it
doesn't matter that these are hineous acts, because they promise
you the sense of belonging and significance that you've been
(43:42):
looking for unsuccessfully in other parts of society. So I
just want to say, if we want to prevent criminal
behavior antisocial behavior in general, one of the best things
we can do is to make sure that everyone in
(44:02):
society feels valued and has an opportunity to contribute to
themselves and others, so they develop a sense of self
worth and they don't have to resort to look in
that sense of worth and value in antisocial groups.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Oh, there's so much I could ask you about that
coming to a cloture, so I want to get to
two other things before I hope I can let you go.
And one is you did an amazing job in a
way that I have only seen before explicating the.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
Rise of narcissism. Can you say a bit more about that?
Speaker 4 (44:43):
Well? As I mentioned earlier, when when you suffer from
lack of recognition and lack of worth, people will go
to great length to assert their importance sometimes they do
(45:08):
this in pro social ways, sometimes they do this in
antisocial ways. Right, and again, as I said before, it
depends on your personality, your competencies, your social emotional skills,
your emotional intelligence. But also it depends on the environment
where you grow up. So nowadays we live in a
(45:33):
highly individualistic culture that tends to promote narcissistic personalities. So
if I am not able to achieve a sense of
mattering in a healthy way, let's say, by helping others,
(45:54):
being a valued member of my family and community, being
I liberate war, or being just a supportive peer and friend.
When I feel that I don't have this healthy outlet
to add value, a lot of people just turn towards
(46:16):
a narcissistic way to feel like they murder. So it's
not enough for them to feel like they marter in
small ways. They have to feel like they marterer in
huge ways. They have to be the most important and
the center of attention, even if it comes at the
(46:38):
expense of minimizing the war and well being of other people.
They don't care because they're solely focused on regaining a
sense of mattering that may not have been provided to
them early on in life. So this is a classic
(46:58):
compensatory defense mechanism, a compensatory response that you are overdoing
what you did not experience earlier in life. And again,
it doesn't matter who are the victims, who gets in
the way of your grandiosity. You are just invested in
(47:24):
being the best, the most admired, the most talked about,
the most famous, the one with the most followers, et cetera,
et cetera. That is, needless to say, extremely toxic for
everyone around these people.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Well, and that's where I think we probably have to
finish here is if to me that the reason that
way is, I think that part of what you just
share there then informs how you differentiate between then culture
versus the WII culture. If maybe in a minute or so,
you could address that topic, and it's what's different about
them and why we maybe ought to embrace the weak culture.
Speaker 4 (48:08):
So basically, if there was a motto or a driving
force behind our Western culture, it would be a meek culture.
A mean culture says the following, I have the right
to feel valued so that I can be happy, the
(48:31):
emphasis on I have the right to feel valued so
that I can be happy. So then I asked, just
a minute, what about other people. What about not just
wellness but also fairness. So a weak culture is the
culture in which we all have not only the right
(48:56):
to feel valued, but also the response ability to add
value so that we can all experience not only wellness
but also fairness. So the difference is in a me culture,
it's all about having rights, feeling valued, and being happy.
(49:19):
That nurtures a narcissistic society. A weak culture where we
all have rights but also responsibilities to feel valued, but
also to add value so that we can pay attention
not just wellness but also to fairness. That cultivates a
(49:39):
culture of solidarity, caring, compassion, and mutual support. So I
rather live in a weak culture where it's not all
about me feeling valued, but it's rather about all of
us feeling valued and adding value by creating conditions of
(50:04):
fairness that leads to experiences of worldliness and outcomes of wildness.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
What a powerful way to finish the show, doctor Isaac.
Thank you so much for sharing your beautiful heart, your wisdom,
your work with us.
Speaker 5 (50:19):
It's a pleasure to have you on working in a
purpose and I do want to have you back on.
Thank you for coming on.
Speaker 4 (50:25):
Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 5 (50:27):
Very welcome listeners and viewers.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
You are going to want to learn more about doctor
Isaac Perletensky, the work he does and well being, wellness
and fairness. You can find him simply at professor Isaac
dot com. Last week, I give us the live show
you always catch it be recorded podcast wherever you get
your podcast, and see you next week for another nourishing
and inspiring conversation featuring another thought leader. Remember that work
(50:48):
is one of the best adventures and means of realizing
our potential and making the impact of the crave and
can give us the opportunity to business in a way
that betters the world. So let's work on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
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