February 4, 2025 • 49 mins
Purpose in business attracts employees who are willing to work for less to feel fulfilled, customers who are ready to pay more for meaningful products, and investors who recognize the higher returns of purpose-driven companies. But how can you activate purpose in your organization? And how can you be sure it’s making a difference? Join us to learn a simple yet effective approach to measuring and managing the experience of purpose, empowering leaders to unlock its full potential.
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Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/working-on-purpose--2643411/support.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
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(00:21):
W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has
been brought to you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteenth. Exture tuning again this week. Great to
have you. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortes. If we've
not met before and you don't know me, I'm an
organizational psychologist and lag with therapist, speaker and author. My
team and I at gusto Now help companies to enlive
and then fortify their operations by building a culture and
leadership activated by meaning and purpose. Our mission is to
(01:27):
help clients create a destination workplace where people flocked to join,
are intrinsically motivated to perform at their best, can grow
into their fuller potential, and are committed to stay in
an an deliver on their company's mission, which translates to
higher profits for you. You learn more about us and how
we can work together at gustodashnow dot com or my
personal website at Leisecortes dot com. Getting in today's program
(01:48):
we have with us today, Doctor Carlsure. He's the Professor
of Strategic Management and director of the Chair of the
Chair Management by Missions and Corporate Governance at University that
journas Now. He's the founder of DPMC, provider of strategy
and change management services for companies such as Coca Cola,
Sony Camper, Repsol, and Bristol Myers Squib. He is co
(02:11):
author of Management by Missions, published in six languages, editor
of the open access book Purpose Driven Organizations, Management Ideas
for a Better World, and other books and articles in
leading journals like Long Range Planning and Journal of Business Ethics.
Today we're talking about his work and researching purpose driven organizations.
He joins us today from Barcelona, Spain. Carlos A hearty
(02:32):
welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Hello, thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
It's so wonderful to cross paths with you, Carlos. I
love what you're doing. I want to drink it up
and be a part of it, so I really want to.
I'm looking forward to sharing it with our listeners and
viewers today.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Thank you very much. It was really looking forward to
have this conversation with you, and also the things about
these things about purposon I'm talking.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Well, let's just sitch week for our listeners and viewers
who haven't been drinking, you know, from the firehose of
your LinkedIn articles and from your books, et cetera. Let's
just start with what you're pouring yourself into today. So
let's just situate where are you putting your heart and
soul these days? What do you want to.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Well, you know, I think for many years I've been
working and purpose. I've done many things, as you said,
a couple of books. Also, my PhD dissertation was about purpose,
realizational corporate purpose. Also I've been working with more than
two hundred companies today. But really now what I am
(03:39):
really a concern is how to connect your the personal
purpose of people with a company purpose. I think this
is a challenge. This is a challenge for many companies
because now really it's not only to define the purpose
in the corporate purpose for a company, but also the
question is how do you really connect the personal purpose
(04:03):
of your people with a corporate purpose. And this is
probably the thing I am more working on for the
last three four years. I will say.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
It's the life one. We're going to die a little
bit more deeper into that as we go. I think
that's amazing. One of the many things that I see
you really leading the field with is that's one of them.
The other one, of course, is the measuring, which we'll
get to in just a second. But I am interested.
I know I found myself in the purpose space because
my dissertation was around studying meaning and working identity. So
I had the meaning stuff which botanly led me into
(04:36):
the purpose camp. But I'm interested in learning when and
how did you discover the opportunity and the need for
organizations to operate from purpose.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Well, when I discovered, really good question, I would think
it was not an academy. Indeed, it was research. It
was volunteering. Yeah, I was voll with Mother Teresa, you
know Indian Mother Teresa from Kalkatats.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I remember this in your book, Yes, well.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I mentioned this in the Yes, in the A pillar
of the book, you know, So I there is where
I discovered Mother Teresa was alive at that time. And
I was working in a house that was called Caligat
for infirmed people that were living on the streets. And
there there was a house that we were taking care
(05:28):
of forty people that they were close to die. And
I remember the day when I arrived. One of the
nuns told me, hey, you know this guy, this a
Hindu guy, and he has been living probably all his
life in the street and you are going to take
care of him. And I was feeding him every morning.
(05:50):
Then I was giving some pills watching him. Also, I
learned from Hindu poems and learn to Hindu songs and
and and really I discovered meaning, this is a purpose.
Those days were very meaningful days for me. And it happened,
but it was going to happen. This guy died in
(06:12):
my arms, and then all the purpose went on, all
the things, all the I was thinking, wow, what is
And I remember the following day I went to busy
mother Terisa, and we had a conversation. I was very
upset that really Ann also thinking about everything would happened
(06:35):
the day before this guy. And we was telling to
mother Test what is the meaning of all this? And
what is the meaning of all this? We how many
people we are taking care in this house just forty
We have hundreds of people dying on the streets every
day here in calcut in the world alone. And ver
Test was listening to me. When I finished, she said, look, Carlos,
(06:58):
put love in everything you do, because what counts, what
really counts, it's not how much you do, but how
much love you put in the Do you know for me?
That day I will tell you I really discover what
purpose means, because really, I said, way, now I understand
why I was so happy and why that house was
(07:19):
so purposeful and it was full of purpose. Why because
the important thing was not how much you feed the people,
or how many songs you said, or the poems or
the time you spend with them. The really the important
thing was the love we were putting all those things.
And this is where I where I discovered the importance
(07:39):
of purpose for an organization. And I think this counts
or if you're volunteering, but also it comes if you're
in a factory, in a banking, a distribution, in a hospital.
I mean, this is the big discovery I met. And
to be honest, for twenty five years now, since then,
(08:00):
I've been doing just one thing, just bringing this message
to companies. And I think purpose is a very good channel,
a very good concept to give this meaning to the
work that you were doing. The relevant thing. The important
thing is not how much you do, but how much
enough you put in the doing.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
What a beautiful story, Carlos, What a great way to
open our conversation for our listeners and viewers. And I
would say one thing to what you just shared, and
that is, of course you know what I whole thing
about purposes. It's ultimately always about serving, serving and helping.
But I love how you've now injected the word love
in there. And I'm increasingly finding that that little four
letter word is finding its way into more conversations around
(08:45):
business than I've ever noticed it before, and I take
that as a good sign.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yes, absolutely, you know, this is something I love to
talk about love in business, and I think it's something
not only love, but also friendship. It is a very
important word. This is something very important world. We need
to use friendship, this is compassion, all these things, communion.
(09:13):
I think all these words we need spirituality to incorporate
as well into business because business is human, so we
cannot detach all these things from business. And purpose is
a good way to discover this, you, because you know,
when we talk about purpose, then all these things make
more sense. Purpose is bringing is not. And I like
(09:38):
Simon Sinek, for example, he says, it's not what you do,
is why you do it. But when you talk about
this why you're doing the things, then love is there.
It's so beautiful, Yes, and it's so I think it's
purpose is a very good way to connect with all
these human basic things.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Pretty much a lot of the work that I'm doing
too chology. To me, it just makes intimate sense, right,
immediate and intimate sense. But it seems that we need
to do a little bit more persuading that of some
other folks that haven't quite gotten on the same BANDWAGONES yet,
which is why we're doing the work that we're doing.
And one of the things that I think can really
help that initiative is what you're doing, which is how
(10:20):
we originally met on LinkedIn. I was so intrigued to
learn about your measure to Improve initiative? Can you share
more about how did that come about? What are you
trying to accomplish?
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yeah, thank you, well, yes, I love this one displayed
and it's very connected with the what I mentioned before,
the personal connection, the personal connection with the employees with
the company. Yeah. And you know when companies have a purpose,
then normally they measure it or they're trying to find
a way to ask the different stakeholders. They ask the clients,
(10:55):
or they ask a society. You have different certifications like
bi Corps or you have also some other companies that
can certify ESG certification. But in thing we have missed
something that is very important is the voice of employees.
And it's fundamental. I mean, employees is the main stap
holder that participate on the purpose. So really and I
(11:19):
think we want really to have purpose and to measure purpose.
The first one you need to ask is your employees.
And this is what we want to achieve with this movement.
We've been doing this for many years not we develop
in our research, grow different scales to measure purpose and
(11:39):
to give boys to the employees. And then after some
years we say, hey, why not to create a movement
that we are going to encourage companies to do it
and to help companies to make this measurement and to
give boys to the employees so that the employees can
that Okay, my company, in the company I'm working for.
(12:00):
Purpose really is something that is alive. It's not just
the sentence on the website or is something for proper relationships.
It's something that is connecting with me. I see also
the management is consistent with it, and also my colleagues.
This is what we are. We are mentioning and the
objective is giving boys, giving voice to the employees.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I think that's incredible. Carlos and I certainly know of
of the big corpor certifications in the esgy stuff that
you talked about before, but beyond that, I personally have
not accounted very many companies that lease in the United
States that are really measuring purpose the way that you're
putting forth, which is why I'm so excited about this.
And I think it will really help excuse me, really
(12:48):
help us maybe help more people get on the bandwagon
who think it's a little bit too fluffy. So you
have a three D index and purpose, so I think
it's just very potent and size and maybe you can
cover that next.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Yes, this is well. We had at the beginning, we
developed setting scales with more than one hundred measures, not
then we validated forty eight and then it was okay
with this with this survey is we can measure many
aspects of purpose. But then one of the companies we
(13:24):
are working here from a big company here in Spain and
other companies, they said to us, we'll like to have
an index like the net Promoted score, that is asking
do you do you would like to recommend the companies,
We would like to have one for measuring purpose. I said, wow,
this is very good, I mean, and we started developing
(13:47):
with this company and another sixty companies research and then
we fail, I will say, because we were not able
to find just one question, and you know, purposes something
that at least you need three questions, three questions, and
this is a and then so will reduce the forty
(14:08):
eight questions into three and this is the good thing.
And then with these three questions, we are making what
we call a synthetic index, so that we have and
we have also we can identify people that is supporting,
that is connected with the purpose, people that is indifferent.
Also identify the percentage of people that they say, well,
(14:29):
purposes not with me, and also that are disconnected. So
and also with different percentages. And here we assess and
we can measure. But the most important thing is not
only measuring, but what we are providing we are want
to do with this movement is that companies communicate to
the employees that results. So it's not only given the
(14:52):
boys to measure, but also to communicate the resources and
to ask for ideas for improvement. This is why it's
called measure to improve, because it's not measure to prevent
or measure to display or measure to improve. And the
important thing is not only to measure, but also to
communicate the results and say, okay, this is the results.
(15:14):
If they are good, okay, so we are going to
celebrate it. But can what can what can we do
to improve? And also the results and that are not
very good? Okay, give me ideas and give me solutions.
And this is and this is what we want that
companies to measure and then communicate to the emplices giving
the boys not only in giving boys not only for measuring,
but also to provide ideas on how to improve it.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I think it's stunning. So let's take our first break
and will continue the conversation about that. I'm your host, doctor,
really is Cortes were only Carlos Professor of Strate Management
and Director of Chair Management, Missions and Corporate Governance at
University's University Starts and International Cataluna, and is the founder
of dp m C, a provider of strategy and change
(16:00):
management services. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment performance and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(16:39):
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise Alise at a least Coortes dot com. Now back
(17:02):
to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, Doctorby's Cortes, as I too,
am dedicated to help creating a world where people realize
their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders that
help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do
business at better as the world. I keep researching and
writing my own books, So my last one came out
in March of twenty twenty three. It's called The Great Revitalization.
(17:29):
How activating meaning and purpose can radically live in your business.
And I wrote that to help leaders understand the lay
of the land of today's workforce. What do they want
to be happy and fulfilled around? And then I offer
twenty two best practices to help you to put that
into your culture to help make that happen. If you
are just now joining us, my guest is Carlos Rey.
(17:50):
He's the co author of Management by Missions, published in
six different languages, and the editor of the open access
book Purpose Driven Organizations Management Ideas for a Better World. So, Carlos,
before we go on to the next topic, before we
leave that three D index, I wanted if you want
to bring to life. I appreciated that you you talk
about how the treaty index is really designed to help
(18:12):
empower companies to activate internalize their purpose. And you have
three levels of insights from employee I think theater employees correct, yes,
would you speak to them? Coherence, authenticity, and integrity.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Well, this is this. This was the initial research. Okay,
the initial research and this was the result of my
pit with dissertation in it many years ago. Uh, this
is where the dimensions where you need to explain what purpose?
This is? What what is purpose? And where? Where where
(18:49):
do you find purpose? In my case for example, in
your case, now where is purpose? And I explained it
in this way. If you put your hands like this
head and know you said purpose is more or less?
Here is head heard and hands. It's more or less
in this area here. You know, it's in the head,
(19:11):
it's in the heart, and it's in the hands. And
we're explaining this is purpose is head. It's something that
you can explain. It's something that you know is knowledge.
And it's important because if you don't know the purpose,
you can even explaining with your own words. Then but
(19:32):
it's not only knowing the purpose. It's not the sentence.
You can have the sentence, but really it's not the
most important thing. If we want to know your purpose,
my purpose. So what you are going to look at
is your hands, what you are doing. And this is
the second thing is action. So it's not only knowledge
but also hands with you in action. But you know,
(19:55):
if you consider just knowledge action, knowledge action, knowledge, action, notice, action,
then purpose is not different than objectives, strategy, procedures, because
procedures everything is knowledge, action, action and then control and
then plan control. But purpose is this, but not only this,
also you incorporate the heart. So it's it's really some
(20:17):
motivation and this is the most important thing. Where people
and companies fail sometimes they consider just the good sentence
and then they need to implement it, and it's not
only to implement it, but also to internalize it. So
most important thing is to understand that purpose is the
three things at the same time. The three things at
(20:37):
the same time is the head, is the heart enhance
And also it's really related. We told k before, it's
putting love in the things you're doing at the end
of the day. So my PhD was basically explaining in
scientific words and demonstrating this with a lot of data
(20:57):
and companies and et cetera and statistics. But really to
implement purpose effectively, you need to incorporate the three things.
So I would say more I was right, you need
to put love in the things. You need to put
love if you want to really implement purpose. And then
this day mentions that that you mentioned is the connection
(21:19):
between the head and the hands. So between what you think,
what you know is your purpose and what you're doing.
This is what we call coherence, and it makes sense.
But then we differentiate because you can be coherent, but
sometimes maybe your heart is not there. Then we put
you an example, give you an example. This is a
pharm atholtical companies. Some people think, oh, yes, there they
(21:41):
are doing their purpose, because of course they are pharmathetical companies.
They are improving the health of people. But some people say, yeah,
but they don't have a real purpose. Why do they
so say they are coherent, but they are not authentic.
Authenticity is you explain it, relationship between your head and
your heart. There is a line that goes here to here.
(22:03):
This there is a like strings. You know, I play
the guitar. I like playing. We say that we have
some strings from your head to your heart. And really,
when when you are practicing your purpose, these strings are
moving and are making music. And this is oftenty. This
is authenticity, you know. But not only this, but also
(22:23):
is hey, what are you doing? What you are not
even thinking? This is hard two hands. When it is integrated,
this is what we call integrity or disintegrated in your acts.
So at the end of the day, the things that
you are doing normally, even without thinking about it, then
it's your purpose. So and this is this is the
(22:44):
these three things. That is the coherence, the authenticity and integrity,
And this you can apply to the whole organization. And
this is the you say, okay, is the organization is
coherent when they are doing what they say in the
website and also as the purpose. But also they are
authentic when they own motivations. They really the motivation of
(23:08):
the people is doing that purpose, and very is for
the purpose. I like to say that that the purpose
of purpose is purpose. There is no other purpose. So
you're going to say, no, I'm doing this purpose for
maximizing the holder value now and there is not going
to work. The purpose of purpose is purpose. So and
(23:32):
this is the integrity is when you are where you're
connecting hard and hands, you know, it's when really the motivation,
the spontaneous motivation of people is doing the purpose because
it is natural. And these are the three, the three
ideas that laterally we are measuring also with h this
(23:52):
index because at the end of the day, when we
say the connection, so the management behavior is consistent with
the company purpose. This is the first question. This is
the coherence. There's management consistency. Then the second one is
the purpose of your company is connected with your personal values.
This is authenticity, is going to the heart, It is
(24:14):
asking to the heart of people. Yes, And one is
when the behavior of my colleagues is consistent my colleagues mean,
I mean, if you have five thousand people and you
ask this question to five thousand people in your company,
then you have five thousand answers of what is happening around.
So this is the integrity and with this you can
(24:37):
you can measure and know how the purpose is coherent,
is integrated and also is authentic in the company.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So beautiful, explained reminding me, and I know you've seen
this before too, when you ask somebody an organization what's
the purpose of this place and they go, wit, is
a second, I know there's something on the wall. Just
a second, let me find it. It's on the wall someplace.
Oh no, no, that's not that's what. How you find the
purpose of organization? You're not living it, that's for sure.
(25:07):
You surely don't know it.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Let me tell you something that really this happened to
me once. Remind me, I was in talking to a
big company and a new c and the CEO was
was new for six months or so, and then he
wanted to plement the purpose, to develop it. And he
called me and I was waiting, and then when we
(25:30):
met him in his room and his office, then I
mentioned to him. He mentioned to me, well, I wo
would like to define the purpose because we don't have purpose.
And I said, well, I was in the in the
waiting room and there.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
Is a big there is that says but the purpose
of the company said, oh really, and he went out
and he didn't know for.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
Really the company for six months and he didn't know
the company had already to find the purposing a picture
on it. So yeah, something even it is it worse
that the people is having to purpose somewhere there and
they are not even recognizing it?
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Boy, did he need to Carlos well to that. And
the next thing I wanted to talk about that I
really really align with is you talk about how discovering
or rediscovering purpose as a whole organization is not a
top down job, that it's essential that you're it's your
full You mentioned this a little bit earlier, but if
you could just speak to really how you're encouraging organizations
(26:34):
to really involve all employees into the process. I do
something similar as well, But if you could speak to that,
that'd be great.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
Yeah, thank you much. I think when I started, I
was thinking more because everyone at that time, this was
the two thousand or least man and at that time,
the top down approach was the one on people was
thinking of defining the mission division the values of ORB
and all these things, and then to implement it top down,
(27:03):
et cetera. But then I discovered that, okay, this probably
it's necessary to clarify some how the purpose in the study,
and this is required, but also you can implement it
from bottom up bottom up. And then we started combining
top down and bottom up with people and asking how
(27:27):
just it was very simple. We went to the people
and we were asking, how do you contribute to this purpose?
How are you connecting with this? And sometimes we said,
well I don't understand the purpose very well or okay,
but tell me all you think what is your purpose?
And then with this conversation we started people started reflecting
(27:47):
about their own purpose. And this is the way to
combine the top down and the bottom up. But you
know this, this was more or less like fifteen years ago,
but now more recently, and there was a little bit
after I wrote that book that you mentioned it was
in twenty nineteen and the Purpose of Organizations. But more
(28:08):
recently I'm discovering that it is not only top down
on bottom ap Now probably the more important thing is
that is inside out and outside. And this is a world.
I have a very good friend John Man Dog has
published and it's explaining very well. And when Johnny was
publishing this work and he said, wow, this is the key.
(28:31):
It's not only top down on bottom app but also
inside out and outside in. And it's very important because
when with this approach, you can go straight, for example,
to the middle management and then you're gonna go not
so you can do everything. You know, it's okay inside out.
I mean this, what is your purpose in life? What
do you think is your contribution to the purpose of
(28:53):
the company or the purpose of the organization. And even
when the maybe the purpose is not very clear, even
in transition. We discovered this within COVID as well. Many
times between COVID the purpose was blurred. I mean it
was difficult to understand what is the purpose of our
company now? And then we are at home and then
(29:14):
everything some people have the stores closed and everything, so
they need to redefine. So soon as I say okay,
inside out, so hey from your purpose, because we don't
want to lose the sense of purpose in our companies.
So inside out. But the other one is outside in.
(29:34):
What are the things that are happening in the world
that really you think you can contribute? You can help.
And here you have many things, many different courses and
different things that in your companies you can do. So
whether discovered let's put this top down, bottom map, inside out,
Let's say it. Okay, but that before before, at the
(29:56):
same time, and this is it's powerful. I mean I
discovered for the three four years, the last three four years,
and is very is a completely new way to develop
purpose in your organizations when you are considering these two
perspectives together together.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
That was beautiful, Carlos. Again, so many reasons why I
wanted to have you on the podcast. So I think
you're just going to have to come back in another
time because we'll have more to talk about. But let's
grab our last break here. I'm your host, doctor Releas
Cortez were run the air with doctor Carlos Rey, Strategic
Management and director of the Chair Management by Missions and
Corporate Governance at University STA International. Cataluna is also the
(30:38):
founder of DPMC, provider of strategy and change management services.
After the break, we're going to talk also about a
few examples of some leading organizations that are really living
this stuff in a way that I think you'll find inspiring.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(31:28):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Alise A. L Se at elisecortes dot com. Now back
(31:51):
to working on purpose.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Thanks for stating with us on look back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, Doctor Relea's Cortes. I mentioned
in this break that my lab came out in March
twenty three called the Great Vitalization. What I did for
you is I created a very simple three page assessment
that you can take off my website pust attation now
dot com, and that will help you understand the extent
to which your current culture is meeting the discerning needs
of today's workforce. If you are just now joining us,
(32:21):
my guest is doctor Carlos Rey. He's a theor of
management bus published in six different languages, and the editor
of the open excess book Purpose Driven Organizations Management Ideas
for a Better World. So for this next segment here, Carlos,
what I thought we could do was really help our
listeners and viewers really on this stuff is living in
the world in different companies, and you have given various
(32:42):
examples that I thought were so compelling and so inspiring,
and I wanted to start first if you would bring
to life like what Bimbo is doing. Now. I knew
of the book because once upon a time I used
to sell baking flower by the truckload. So I knew
of Bimbo, but I had no idea what they were
doing in this space of purpose. Could you share a
(33:02):
bit about how they are the power of discover organilation
individual purpose in their organization.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Yeah, well, you know, I was also knowing Bimbo as
a consumer or at home. I was a kid, Bimbo
was at home, but I didn't know anything about a purpose.
And then one day it was a friend that told
me I Carlos, this topic that you are doing the
research about purpose. You know, I know a company that
(33:32):
is doing this very well, Well, what does the company
Bimbo in Mexico? Oh so okay, I didn't know even
that it was Mexican, to be honest, I thought it
was a Spanish because and I said, well it's from Mexico, yes,
And why did you say to me that there is?
Then they are living the purpose? And he explained to
(33:54):
me something that you know, there is a there's something
that happened in Bimbo that one day, you know, in Bimbo,
just to have in Mexico these tracks, you know, these
trucks that were they're carrying with Bimbo trucks. And then
when police it was many many years ago, like forty
years ago, something that one of the policemen stopped the
(34:18):
Bimbo and asked for a bribery, you know, something more
wow for the Mordida I know. And then the other
policeman said, don't ask for this because they are not
they were not going to pay. They are from Bimbo.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
This is an example when when this guy explained me
this and said, wow, this is so in Mexico. The
people know that they are going to be ethic and
they prefer to have them or the punishment or whatever,
but not to pay anything. And I said, wow, this
is and then I wrote them and I brought the
(34:55):
president and Lorenzo said, VIC and I fled to Mexico
and I asked them to have one week research and
we started a very very nice relationship. And you know,
I discovered and I remember talking with Lorenzo Slovic the
first day. He was screaming about the company when he
founded the company, and he said, you know, Carlos, I
(35:17):
was going to Harvard to learn things. And then I
tried to explain this to my employees, but then they
were looking at me like understanding that. And I say,
I think, I think these things for Harbor are very interesting,
but maybe this is not the right way to do
the things. And then I decided to listen to my people.
So I listened, to spend time with them and to listen.
(35:39):
And he said, I discovered something, Carlos, And he gave
me a paper and he wrote in nineteen fifty two
or something and that and the title was the company
has a soul that is made of the soul of
every employee. And I said this, when we talk about purpose,
I mean because I love to say that the purpose
(36:02):
of a company is made of the purpose of every employee.
And I said, wow. So and then he was telling
to me, and you know, the key thing and the
key thing and this that you are teaching to manage
and to presidents of companies, tell them, tell them the
most important thing is to feed the soul of your employees,
(36:25):
so that you're feeding the soul the soul of your company.
So the most important thing is to feel the soul
of the business. And then he said, of a good business,
because he was a very good business man, indeed, and
he was quite good business because you have to do.
(36:47):
And then he explained me about the things about the world,
the values they have except you know, and it was
very good example. They had the course and they studied
they call it and the heavy you know, the boss
at the beginning it was the sixties, the boss in
cultural heavy, the boss in cultural heafy.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
The course, yeah, of course you know.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
Something and that then and then in that course they
were talking about the values, the personal values and the
connection between personal values and the values of the company.
Fifty years ago fifty years ago, you imagine, and then
in the eighties they call it the Leaders, the Leaders
scores and then Excel and it was given by the
(37:35):
same employees, and I was well, I was revealing all
the exercises and everything that was great and all the
so Pinbo is a very very good example how they're
doing it with more than one hundred thousand people. And
this is a challenge because sometimes you have one hundred people.
One hundred people, people can say, Okay, this is easy
to to but it's not easy. But it could be easier. No,
(37:57):
but we had one more than one hundred though, some
people all over the world, different countries, and the way
they are doing it is great. I learned a lot
from them.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
I love the idea of coming and camping out of
learning from a company like that. I signed me up
for that. I want to do that, but specifically for
our listeners and viewers. I want to bring this home
for them, because I was so impressed to read this
in your book, Carlos, that you said that people the
idea so that when people come on board with Bimbo,
they shortly after joining they take one of these courses
(38:28):
you're talking about to help reflect on their personal purpose
and values relative to those of the company. And you
said it was at the time of your writing, it
was one hundred and thirty thousand employees, and they do
this around the globe, and so I just wanted to
situate that's going to be one of the best onboarding
programs I have ever heard of.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Yes, absolutely, and many things I learned this. I tell you,
it was like fifteen years ago when I was doing
this this week, and then I have been implementing this
with many companies and it works. It's a practice that
you can you can do. I mean, this is what
I told you is something even maybe a company for
(39:09):
many years they have this purpose and they have this culture,
et cetera. But you can develop with this kind of training.
You can develop from inside out, from inside. This is
a way to also to Flori is the purpose that
is already there in the people. So and this is
(39:30):
a way to when you are doing this, and it
could happen that somethings that people discover that this is
not the company they want to work for. And also it's.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Good, it's much as valuable. Absolutely, No, of course.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
It's better than having people that they don't want to
work and it's not aligned with the values and not
because they are against or sometimes because they have different
values and good h beautiful.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
So Bimbo is really a leading example and has been
for decades. That's amazing. The next one that I wanted
us to talk about was the univers Liver example around
the brand purpose that you were talking about in your book.
If you could bring that one to life.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
Yes, this is another one. But I started conversations with
univer here in Spain. Really I was interested to know
what they were implementing. And they developed like different programs
at different levels. Was it was the time where performance
was the seal, and they started developing the purpose for
(40:36):
the company, but also the brand purpose and then personal purpose.
And I think working at the three levels more or
less at the same time, they with one year the
difference they started running these different problems. There is another
way to trying to connect is not only company purpose
(40:59):
with personal purpose, but also and I think you delivery
is a very good example of this with the brand
purpose because it's a way to connect also with your customers.
So I think the big combination is the personal purpose,
company purpose and customers clients purpose. This connection of the
(41:22):
three is your company, your people and your clients. And
when you are connecting the three is magic. And this
is what I think they did. I mean, they show
me statistics that they have when they are successful implementing
the brand purpose together with the personal purpose, they have
(41:44):
growth that double the other brands that they are not
implementing a double they double. They have a lot of
statistics and numbers, and they're investing a lot of money
and this and this is very very important. But maybe
the challenge on this is to maintain this this connection
because then you make changes and you know Uniliver now
(42:07):
has made changes and they have a new CEO, a
different perspective, different and then this connection so also you
need to redefine, you need to adjust to so you
need to incorporate also the dynamism. When we were talking
on this, no, and this is probably something that Unliver
I was and I am doing research with Unilver. From
(42:30):
time to time we talk and I am following the
evolution of all these things. And the last time it
was one month ago. Uh, they explain it and well,
now we are with these challenges, we need to really
see how to make this alignment not to keep this
alignment also with the brands also, and this is something
it's not static and mean, it's purpose is a living thing,
(42:53):
so it's cultural. So anything. The key that I learned
from from this, from from Unilver others, but also we
are implemented in companies is this connection with the clients,
with the purpose of the client, with the purpose of
your people, and the purpose of your company.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Oh, this is such good stuff. I don't know why
anybody would wanted to stop everything they're doing and get
to work right on this in their company.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Okay. The last example I wanted to talk about, which
I was just so delighted to learn about, is you
talk about how an Indian it services company called HCl
Technologies promotes what they call the employee Passion Indicator, is
used to identify the key passions of employees and to
steer them towards jobs where they can actually put them
to best use. What a concept.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Wow, it is very nice. I think what they did
it in this way. You know in India they have
very good ideas, good names and concepts, and yeah, this
passion indicator, but this is very important. I have also
seen this in many many other companies where we are
finding Indeed, when you're touching the passion, you're touching personal
(44:06):
purpose somehow. You know this is a way at the
end of the day where you put a passion is
something normally where you are is the best of yourself purpose.
So you're something you are passionate about. But the important
thing is to keep it alive, to keep it alive,
and this is very important. You know this. This reminds
(44:30):
another another example that I'm living these days. I can
I can bring is a company that is called Alpha
Mega in Israel. This company it was I receive a
call from the CEO like twelve years ago and he said,
I wrote an article that you published about management, my
(44:51):
missions and purpose. Can you and you know I have
a company where we are working fifty arabs and fifty
percent juice. And I say, my goodness, how are you
doing this?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Serious, Well it's not easy, but we are very committed.
We want because we want to be an example of
peace and we want to demonstrate that in our company
it is possible to reach peace and this is our purpose.
Can you help me to develop this purpose in the
company as well? And the first I said that came
(45:27):
to my mind was Okay, do you have any other
company that is doing this and he said, no, we're
the only one in the whole Israel. Only we had
an orchestra that tried to do it and it was
a failure. It was impossible to do it. So I said, okay,
I have no idea how to do it, but I'm
going to fly to yoursel. And then I started working
with them. And you know, this is something because the
(45:50):
challenge is how to keep it alive. And why are
we telling you this because now they're in a severe war,
you know, yeah, yes, they are maintaining this commitment. They
are working together Arabs and US and being assigned an
example of how to live in peace and Urian and
it's incredible. You cannot imagine the kind of innovation. But
(46:14):
when I started working with this company, they were only
for it was like a startup for the employees. Now
they are in China, they are in the States, they
are competing against Metroni. They are really so the company
is incredible and they are keeping maintaining this commitment. Do
you want to be an example of how to live
(46:35):
on peace and in the middle of the war. So
it's something, and this is this is purpose. But it's
sense of purpose.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Oh my gosh, Carlos, thank you for sharing that. That
is amazing. I am so encouraged and heartened by that,
and I think our listener will be as well. So
it happened very fast. This our time goes together very by,
very quickly, already into the program. And I think you
know that the show is listening to my people around
the world, and many of them are looking for new
(47:07):
novel ways to be able to elevate their leadership, to
operate their businesses, or they're just looking for inspiration. What
should like to leave them with today?
Speaker 4 (47:17):
Let me allow let me repeat one thing that I
already said something, but the most important is what I
learned from other tress. Put love in everything you do,
because what counts is not how much you do, but
the love you put in the doing them. She was saying,
the love you put in the doing, you know the
(47:38):
most important thing. And for me it's the sumery of
everything I'm doing and to understand purpose. If you take
this idea, put love in the doing, then you get
ninety nine percent.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
Oh that is an amazing way to finish the colors today.
I am so beyond delighted to know you to be
connected to you, and you really can't hit away from me.
Now you do understand that, right. So I'm a pretty
fast runner and I do know how to get on
an airplane. So I'm sure there will be other conversations
for us to have because you're just doing too many
amazing things that I'm going to need you to come
(48:15):
back and we'll talk about some other things. And maybe
we can talk about some of the other projects that
you find out find out about or that you've been
investigating that will help us further show the examples of
how the stuff is being lived. I think that really
helps people understand take it from the abstract, this sounds
really nice. To wow, this is how it's lived and
how it actually makes a difference to the bottom line
of the organization.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Absolutely, thank you, my studies.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Very very very welcome doctor Carlos. Listeners and viewers, you're
going to want to learn more about this man, doctor
Carlos Sore and the work he is doing to elevate
the performance of companies at DPMC and his various publications.
So you can start by visiting the site. It's DPMC
dot e S for Spanish, you can go to dp
MC dot ees forward slash e N for English. So again,
(49:00):
that's D like dog, P like Paul, M, like Mary
C like Charles DPMC dot ees. We will see you
next week for another inspiring conversation on working on purpose
and remember work is one of the best means of
realizing potential on making the impact we crave. So let's
work on purpose.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicitor implies shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio
or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should
be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing
(00:21):
W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has
been brought to you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteenth. Exture tuning again this week. Great to
have you. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortes. If we've
not met before and you don't know me, I'm an
organizational psychologist and lag with therapist, speaker and author. My
team and I at gusto Now help companies to enlive
and then fortify their operations by building a culture and
leadership activated by meaning and purpose. Our mission is to
(01:27):
help clients create a destination workplace where people flocked to join,
are intrinsically motivated to perform at their best, can grow
into their fuller potential, and are committed to stay in
an an deliver on their company's mission, which translates to
higher profits for you. You learn more about us and how
we can work together at gustodashnow dot com or my
personal website at Leisecortes dot com. Getting in today's program
(01:48):
we have with us today, Doctor Carlsure. He's the Professor
of Strategic Management and director of the Chair of the
Chair Management by Missions and Corporate Governance at University that
journas Now. He's the founder of DPMC, provider of strategy
and change management services for companies such as Coca Cola,
Sony Camper, Repsol, and Bristol Myers Squib. He is co
(02:11):
author of Management by Missions, published in six languages, editor
of the open access book Purpose Driven Organizations, Management Ideas
for a Better World, and other books and articles in
leading journals like Long Range Planning and Journal of Business Ethics.
Today we're talking about his work and researching purpose driven organizations.
He joins us today from Barcelona, Spain. Carlos A hearty
(02:32):
welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Hello, thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
It's so wonderful to cross paths with you, Carlos. I
love what you're doing. I want to drink it up
and be a part of it, so I really want to.
I'm looking forward to sharing it with our listeners and
viewers today.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Thank you very much. It was really looking forward to
have this conversation with you, and also the things about
these things about purposon I'm talking.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Well, let's just sitch week for our listeners and viewers
who haven't been drinking, you know, from the firehose of
your LinkedIn articles and from your books, et cetera. Let's
just start with what you're pouring yourself into today. So
let's just situate where are you putting your heart and
soul these days? What do you want to.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Well, you know, I think for many years I've been
working and purpose. I've done many things, as you said,
a couple of books. Also, my PhD dissertation was about purpose,
realizational corporate purpose. Also I've been working with more than
two hundred companies today. But really now what I am
(03:39):
really a concern is how to connect your the personal
purpose of people with a company purpose. I think this
is a challenge. This is a challenge for many companies
because now really it's not only to define the purpose
in the corporate purpose for a company, but also the
question is how do you really connect the personal purpose
(04:03):
of your people with a corporate purpose. And this is
probably the thing I am more working on for the
last three four years. I will say.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
It's the life one. We're going to die a little
bit more deeper into that as we go. I think
that's amazing. One of the many things that I see
you really leading the field with is that's one of them.
The other one, of course, is the measuring, which we'll
get to in just a second. But I am interested.
I know I found myself in the purpose space because
my dissertation was around studying meaning and working identity. So
I had the meaning stuff which botanly led me into
(04:36):
the purpose camp. But I'm interested in learning when and
how did you discover the opportunity and the need for
organizations to operate from purpose.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Well, when I discovered, really good question, I would think
it was not an academy. Indeed, it was research. It
was volunteering. Yeah, I was voll with Mother Teresa, you
know Indian Mother Teresa from Kalkatats.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I remember this in your book, Yes, well.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I mentioned this in the Yes, in the A pillar
of the book, you know, So I there is where
I discovered Mother Teresa was alive at that time. And
I was working in a house that was called Caligat
for infirmed people that were living on the streets. And
there there was a house that we were taking care
(05:28):
of forty people that they were close to die. And
I remember the day when I arrived. One of the
nuns told me, hey, you know this guy, this a
Hindu guy, and he has been living probably all his
life in the street and you are going to take
care of him. And I was feeding him every morning.
(05:50):
Then I was giving some pills watching him. Also, I
learned from Hindu poems and learn to Hindu songs and
and and really I discovered meaning, this is a purpose.
Those days were very meaningful days for me. And it happened,
but it was going to happen. This guy died in
(06:12):
my arms, and then all the purpose went on, all
the things, all the I was thinking, wow, what is
And I remember the following day I went to busy
mother Terisa, and we had a conversation. I was very
upset that really Ann also thinking about everything would happened
(06:35):
the day before this guy. And we was telling to
mother Test what is the meaning of all this? And
what is the meaning of all this? We how many
people we are taking care in this house just forty
We have hundreds of people dying on the streets every
day here in calcut in the world alone. And ver
Test was listening to me. When I finished, she said, look, Carlos,
(06:58):
put love in everything you do, because what counts, what
really counts, it's not how much you do, but how
much love you put in the Do you know for me?
That day I will tell you I really discover what
purpose means, because really, I said, way, now I understand
why I was so happy and why that house was
(07:19):
so purposeful and it was full of purpose. Why because
the important thing was not how much you feed the people,
or how many songs you said, or the poems or
the time you spend with them. The really the important
thing was the love we were putting all those things.
And this is where I where I discovered the importance
(07:39):
of purpose for an organization. And I think this counts
or if you're volunteering, but also it comes if you're
in a factory, in a banking, a distribution, in a hospital.
I mean, this is the big discovery I met. And
to be honest, for twenty five years now, since then,
(08:00):
I've been doing just one thing, just bringing this message
to companies. And I think purpose is a very good channel,
a very good concept to give this meaning to the
work that you were doing. The relevant thing. The important
thing is not how much you do, but how much
enough you put in the doing.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
What a beautiful story, Carlos, What a great way to
open our conversation for our listeners and viewers. And I
would say one thing to what you just shared, and
that is, of course you know what I whole thing
about purposes. It's ultimately always about serving, serving and helping.
But I love how you've now injected the word love
in there. And I'm increasingly finding that that little four
letter word is finding its way into more conversations around
(08:45):
business than I've ever noticed it before, and I take
that as a good sign.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yes, absolutely, you know, this is something I love to
talk about love in business, and I think it's something
not only love, but also friendship. It is a very
important word. This is something very important world. We need
to use friendship, this is compassion, all these things, communion.
(09:13):
I think all these words we need spirituality to incorporate
as well into business because business is human, so we
cannot detach all these things from business. And purpose is
a good way to discover this, you, because you know,
when we talk about purpose, then all these things make
more sense. Purpose is bringing is not. And I like
(09:38):
Simon Sinek, for example, he says, it's not what you do,
is why you do it. But when you talk about
this why you're doing the things, then love is there.
It's so beautiful, Yes, and it's so I think it's
purpose is a very good way to connect with all
these human basic things.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Pretty much a lot of the work that I'm doing
too chology. To me, it just makes intimate sense, right,
immediate and intimate sense. But it seems that we need
to do a little bit more persuading that of some
other folks that haven't quite gotten on the same BANDWAGONES yet,
which is why we're doing the work that we're doing.
And one of the things that I think can really
help that initiative is what you're doing, which is how
(10:20):
we originally met on LinkedIn. I was so intrigued to
learn about your measure to Improve initiative? Can you share
more about how did that come about? What are you
trying to accomplish?
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yeah, thank you, well, yes, I love this one displayed
and it's very connected with the what I mentioned before,
the personal connection, the personal connection with the employees with
the company. Yeah. And you know when companies have a purpose,
then normally they measure it or they're trying to find
a way to ask the different stakeholders. They ask the clients,
(10:55):
or they ask a society. You have different certifications like
bi Corps or you have also some other companies that
can certify ESG certification. But in thing we have missed
something that is very important is the voice of employees.
And it's fundamental. I mean, employees is the main stap
holder that participate on the purpose. So really and I
(11:19):
think we want really to have purpose and to measure purpose.
The first one you need to ask is your employees.
And this is what we want to achieve with this movement.
We've been doing this for many years not we develop
in our research, grow different scales to measure purpose and
(11:39):
to give boys to the employees. And then after some
years we say, hey, why not to create a movement
that we are going to encourage companies to do it
and to help companies to make this measurement and to
give boys to the employees so that the employees can
that Okay, my company, in the company I'm working for.
(12:00):
Purpose really is something that is alive. It's not just
the sentence on the website or is something for proper relationships.
It's something that is connecting with me. I see also
the management is consistent with it, and also my colleagues.
This is what we are. We are mentioning and the
objective is giving boys, giving voice to the employees.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I think that's incredible. Carlos and I certainly know of
of the big corpor certifications in the esgy stuff that
you talked about before, but beyond that, I personally have
not accounted very many companies that lease in the United
States that are really measuring purpose the way that you're
putting forth, which is why I'm so excited about this.
And I think it will really help excuse me, really
(12:48):
help us maybe help more people get on the bandwagon
who think it's a little bit too fluffy. So you
have a three D index and purpose, so I think
it's just very potent and size and maybe you can
cover that next.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Yes, this is well. We had at the beginning, we
developed setting scales with more than one hundred measures, not
then we validated forty eight and then it was okay
with this with this survey is we can measure many
aspects of purpose. But then one of the companies we
(13:24):
are working here from a big company here in Spain and
other companies, they said to us, we'll like to have
an index like the net Promoted score, that is asking
do you do you would like to recommend the companies,
We would like to have one for measuring purpose. I said, wow,
this is very good, I mean, and we started developing
(13:47):
with this company and another sixty companies research and then
we fail, I will say, because we were not able
to find just one question, and you know, purposes something
that at least you need three questions, three questions, and
this is a and then so will reduce the forty
(14:08):
eight questions into three and this is the good thing.
And then with these three questions, we are making what
we call a synthetic index, so that we have and
we have also we can identify people that is supporting,
that is connected with the purpose, people that is indifferent.
Also identify the percentage of people that they say, well,
(14:29):
purposes not with me, and also that are disconnected. So
and also with different percentages. And here we assess and
we can measure. But the most important thing is not
only measuring, but what we are providing we are want
to do with this movement is that companies communicate to
the employees that results. So it's not only given the
(14:52):
boys to measure, but also to communicate the resources and
to ask for ideas for improvement. This is why it's
called measure to improve, because it's not measure to prevent
or measure to display or measure to improve. And the
important thing is not only to measure, but also to
communicate the results and say, okay, this is the results.
(15:14):
If they are good, okay, so we are going to
celebrate it. But can what can what can we do
to improve? And also the results and that are not
very good? Okay, give me ideas and give me solutions.
And this is and this is what we want that
companies to measure and then communicate to the emplices giving
the boys not only in giving boys not only for measuring,
but also to provide ideas on how to improve it.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I think it's stunning. So let's take our first break
and will continue the conversation about that. I'm your host, doctor,
really is Cortes were only Carlos Professor of Strate Management
and Director of Chair Management, Missions and Corporate Governance at
University's University Starts and International Cataluna, and is the founder
of dp m C, a provider of strategy and change
(16:00):
management services. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment performance and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(16:39):
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise Alise at a least Coortes dot com. Now back
(17:02):
to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, Doctorby's Cortes, as I too,
am dedicated to help creating a world where people realize
their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders that
help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do
business at better as the world. I keep researching and
writing my own books, So my last one came out
in March of twenty twenty three. It's called The Great Revitalization.
(17:29):
How activating meaning and purpose can radically live in your business.
And I wrote that to help leaders understand the lay
of the land of today's workforce. What do they want
to be happy and fulfilled around? And then I offer
twenty two best practices to help you to put that
into your culture to help make that happen. If you
are just now joining us, my guest is Carlos Rey.
(17:50):
He's the co author of Management by Missions, published in
six different languages, and the editor of the open access
book Purpose Driven Organizations Management Ideas for a Better World. So, Carlos,
before we go on to the next topic, before we
leave that three D index, I wanted if you want
to bring to life. I appreciated that you you talk
about how the treaty index is really designed to help
(18:12):
empower companies to activate internalize their purpose. And you have
three levels of insights from employee I think theater employees correct, yes,
would you speak to them? Coherence, authenticity, and integrity.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Well, this is this. This was the initial research. Okay,
the initial research and this was the result of my
pit with dissertation in it many years ago. Uh, this
is where the dimensions where you need to explain what purpose?
This is? What what is purpose? And where? Where where
(18:49):
do you find purpose? In my case for example, in
your case, now where is purpose? And I explained it
in this way. If you put your hands like this
head and know you said purpose is more or less?
Here is head heard and hands. It's more or less
in this area here. You know, it's in the head,
(19:11):
it's in the heart, and it's in the hands. And
we're explaining this is purpose is head. It's something that
you can explain. It's something that you know is knowledge.
And it's important because if you don't know the purpose,
you can even explaining with your own words. Then but
(19:32):
it's not only knowing the purpose. It's not the sentence.
You can have the sentence, but really it's not the
most important thing. If we want to know your purpose,
my purpose. So what you are going to look at
is your hands, what you are doing. And this is
the second thing is action. So it's not only knowledge
but also hands with you in action. But you know,
(19:55):
if you consider just knowledge action, knowledge action, knowledge, action, notice, action,
then purpose is not different than objectives, strategy, procedures, because
procedures everything is knowledge, action, action and then control and
then plan control. But purpose is this, but not only this,
also you incorporate the heart. So it's it's really some
(20:17):
motivation and this is the most important thing. Where people
and companies fail sometimes they consider just the good sentence
and then they need to implement it, and it's not
only to implement it, but also to internalize it. So
most important thing is to understand that purpose is the
three things at the same time. The three things at
(20:37):
the same time is the head, is the heart enhance
And also it's really related. We told k before, it's
putting love in the things you're doing at the end
of the day. So my PhD was basically explaining in
scientific words and demonstrating this with a lot of data
(20:57):
and companies and et cetera and statistics. But really to
implement purpose effectively, you need to incorporate the three things.
So I would say more I was right, you need
to put love in the things. You need to put
love if you want to really implement purpose. And then
this day mentions that that you mentioned is the connection
(21:19):
between the head and the hands. So between what you think,
what you know is your purpose and what you're doing.
This is what we call coherence, and it makes sense.
But then we differentiate because you can be coherent, but
sometimes maybe your heart is not there. Then we put
you an example, give you an example. This is a
pharm atholtical companies. Some people think, oh, yes, there they
(21:41):
are doing their purpose, because of course they are pharmathetical companies.
They are improving the health of people. But some people say, yeah,
but they don't have a real purpose. Why do they
so say they are coherent, but they are not authentic.
Authenticity is you explain it, relationship between your head and
your heart. There is a line that goes here to here.
(22:03):
This there is a like strings. You know, I play
the guitar. I like playing. We say that we have
some strings from your head to your heart. And really,
when when you are practicing your purpose, these strings are
moving and are making music. And this is oftenty. This
is authenticity, you know. But not only this, but also
(22:23):
is hey, what are you doing? What you are not
even thinking? This is hard two hands. When it is integrated,
this is what we call integrity or disintegrated in your acts.
So at the end of the day, the things that
you are doing normally, even without thinking about it, then
it's your purpose. So and this is this is the
(22:44):
these three things. That is the coherence, the authenticity and integrity,
And this you can apply to the whole organization. And
this is the you say, okay, is the organization is
coherent when they are doing what they say in the
website and also as the purpose. But also they are
authentic when they own motivations. They really the motivation of
(23:08):
the people is doing that purpose, and very is for
the purpose. I like to say that that the purpose
of purpose is purpose. There is no other purpose. So
you're going to say, no, I'm doing this purpose for
maximizing the holder value now and there is not going
to work. The purpose of purpose is purpose. So and
(23:32):
this is the integrity is when you are where you're
connecting hard and hands, you know, it's when really the motivation,
the spontaneous motivation of people is doing the purpose because
it is natural. And these are the three, the three
ideas that laterally we are measuring also with h this
(23:52):
index because at the end of the day, when we
say the connection, so the management behavior is consistent with
the company purpose. This is the first question. This is
the coherence. There's management consistency. Then the second one is
the purpose of your company is connected with your personal values.
This is authenticity, is going to the heart, It is
(24:14):
asking to the heart of people. Yes, And one is
when the behavior of my colleagues is consistent my colleagues mean,
I mean, if you have five thousand people and you
ask this question to five thousand people in your company,
then you have five thousand answers of what is happening around.
So this is the integrity and with this you can
(24:37):
you can measure and know how the purpose is coherent,
is integrated and also is authentic in the company.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So beautiful, explained reminding me, and I know you've seen
this before too, when you ask somebody an organization what's
the purpose of this place and they go, wit, is
a second, I know there's something on the wall. Just
a second, let me find it. It's on the wall someplace.
Oh no, no, that's not that's what. How you find the
purpose of organization? You're not living it, that's for sure.
(25:07):
You surely don't know it.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Let me tell you something that really this happened to
me once. Remind me, I was in talking to a
big company and a new c and the CEO was
was new for six months or so, and then he
wanted to plement the purpose, to develop it. And he
called me and I was waiting, and then when we
(25:30):
met him in his room and his office, then I
mentioned to him. He mentioned to me, well, I wo
would like to define the purpose because we don't have purpose.
And I said, well, I was in the in the
waiting room and there.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
Is a big there is that says but the purpose
of the company said, oh really, and he went out
and he didn't know for.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
Really the company for six months and he didn't know
the company had already to find the purposing a picture
on it. So yeah, something even it is it worse
that the people is having to purpose somewhere there and
they are not even recognizing it?
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Boy, did he need to Carlos well to that. And
the next thing I wanted to talk about that I
really really align with is you talk about how discovering
or rediscovering purpose as a whole organization is not a
top down job, that it's essential that you're it's your
full You mentioned this a little bit earlier, but if
you could just speak to really how you're encouraging organizations
(26:34):
to really involve all employees into the process. I do
something similar as well, But if you could speak to that,
that'd be great.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
Yeah, thank you much. I think when I started, I
was thinking more because everyone at that time, this was
the two thousand or least man and at that time,
the top down approach was the one on people was
thinking of defining the mission division the values of ORB
and all these things, and then to implement it top down,
(27:03):
et cetera. But then I discovered that, okay, this probably
it's necessary to clarify some how the purpose in the study,
and this is required, but also you can implement it
from bottom up bottom up. And then we started combining
top down and bottom up with people and asking how
(27:27):
just it was very simple. We went to the people
and we were asking, how do you contribute to this purpose?
How are you connecting with this? And sometimes we said,
well I don't understand the purpose very well or okay,
but tell me all you think what is your purpose?
And then with this conversation we started people started reflecting
(27:47):
about their own purpose. And this is the way to
combine the top down and the bottom up. But you
know this, this was more or less like fifteen years ago,
but now more recently, and there was a little bit
after I wrote that book that you mentioned it was
in twenty nineteen and the Purpose of Organizations. But more
(28:08):
recently I'm discovering that it is not only top down
on bottom ap Now probably the more important thing is
that is inside out and outside. And this is a world.
I have a very good friend John Man Dog has
published and it's explaining very well. And when Johnny was
publishing this work and he said, wow, this is the key.
(28:31):
It's not only top down on bottom app but also
inside out and outside in. And it's very important because
when with this approach, you can go straight, for example,
to the middle management and then you're gonna go not
so you can do everything. You know, it's okay inside out.
I mean this, what is your purpose in life? What
do you think is your contribution to the purpose of
(28:53):
the company or the purpose of the organization. And even
when the maybe the purpose is not very clear, even
in transition. We discovered this within COVID as well. Many
times between COVID the purpose was blurred. I mean it
was difficult to understand what is the purpose of our
company now? And then we are at home and then
(29:14):
everything some people have the stores closed and everything, so
they need to redefine. So soon as I say okay,
inside out, so hey from your purpose, because we don't
want to lose the sense of purpose in our companies.
So inside out. But the other one is outside in.
(29:34):
What are the things that are happening in the world
that really you think you can contribute? You can help.
And here you have many things, many different courses and
different things that in your companies you can do. So
whether discovered let's put this top down, bottom map, inside out,
Let's say it. Okay, but that before before, at the
(29:56):
same time, and this is it's powerful. I mean I
discovered for the three four years, the last three four years,
and is very is a completely new way to develop
purpose in your organizations when you are considering these two
perspectives together together.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
That was beautiful, Carlos. Again, so many reasons why I
wanted to have you on the podcast. So I think
you're just going to have to come back in another
time because we'll have more to talk about. But let's
grab our last break here. I'm your host, doctor Releas
Cortez were run the air with doctor Carlos Rey, Strategic
Management and director of the Chair Management by Missions and
Corporate Governance at University STA International. Cataluna is also the
(30:38):
founder of DPMC, provider of strategy and change management services.
After the break, we're going to talk also about a
few examples of some leading organizations that are really living
this stuff in a way that I think you'll find inspiring.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(31:28):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Alise A. L Se at elisecortes dot com. Now back
(31:51):
to working on purpose.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Thanks for stating with us on look back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, Doctor Relea's Cortes. I mentioned
in this break that my lab came out in March
twenty three called the Great Vitalization. What I did for
you is I created a very simple three page assessment
that you can take off my website pust attation now
dot com, and that will help you understand the extent
to which your current culture is meeting the discerning needs
of today's workforce. If you are just now joining us,
(32:21):
my guest is doctor Carlos Rey. He's a theor of
management bus published in six different languages, and the editor
of the open excess book Purpose Driven Organizations Management Ideas
for a Better World. So for this next segment here, Carlos,
what I thought we could do was really help our
listeners and viewers really on this stuff is living in
the world in different companies, and you have given various
(32:42):
examples that I thought were so compelling and so inspiring,
and I wanted to start first if you would bring
to life like what Bimbo is doing. Now. I knew
of the book because once upon a time I used
to sell baking flower by the truckload. So I knew
of Bimbo, but I had no idea what they were
doing in this space of purpose. Could you share a
(33:02):
bit about how they are the power of discover organilation
individual purpose in their organization.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Yeah, well, you know, I was also knowing Bimbo as
a consumer or at home. I was a kid, Bimbo
was at home, but I didn't know anything about a purpose.
And then one day it was a friend that told
me I Carlos, this topic that you are doing the
research about purpose. You know, I know a company that
(33:32):
is doing this very well, Well, what does the company
Bimbo in Mexico? Oh so okay, I didn't know even
that it was Mexican, to be honest, I thought it
was a Spanish because and I said, well it's from Mexico, yes,
And why did you say to me that there is?
Then they are living the purpose? And he explained to
(33:54):
me something that you know, there is a there's something
that happened in Bimbo that one day, you know, in Bimbo,
just to have in Mexico these tracks, you know, these
trucks that were they're carrying with Bimbo trucks. And then
when police it was many many years ago, like forty
years ago, something that one of the policemen stopped the
(34:18):
Bimbo and asked for a bribery, you know, something more
wow for the Mordida I know. And then the other
policeman said, don't ask for this because they are not
they were not going to pay. They are from Bimbo.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
This is an example when when this guy explained me
this and said, wow, this is so in Mexico. The
people know that they are going to be ethic and
they prefer to have them or the punishment or whatever,
but not to pay anything. And I said, wow, this
is and then I wrote them and I brought the
(34:55):
president and Lorenzo said, VIC and I fled to Mexico
and I asked them to have one week research and
we started a very very nice relationship. And you know,
I discovered and I remember talking with Lorenzo Slovic the
first day. He was screaming about the company when he
founded the company, and he said, you know, Carlos, I
(35:17):
was going to Harvard to learn things. And then I
tried to explain this to my employees, but then they
were looking at me like understanding that. And I say,
I think, I think these things for Harbor are very interesting,
but maybe this is not the right way to do
the things. And then I decided to listen to my people.
So I listened, to spend time with them and to listen.
(35:39):
And he said, I discovered something, Carlos, And he gave
me a paper and he wrote in nineteen fifty two
or something and that and the title was the company
has a soul that is made of the soul of
every employee. And I said this, when we talk about purpose,
I mean because I love to say that the purpose
(36:02):
of a company is made of the purpose of every employee.
And I said, wow. So and then he was telling
to me, and you know, the key thing and the
key thing and this that you are teaching to manage
and to presidents of companies, tell them, tell them the
most important thing is to feed the soul of your employees,
(36:25):
so that you're feeding the soul the soul of your company.
So the most important thing is to feel the soul
of the business. And then he said, of a good business,
because he was a very good business man, indeed, and
he was quite good business because you have to do.
(36:47):
And then he explained me about the things about the world,
the values they have except you know, and it was
very good example. They had the course and they studied
they call it and the heavy you know, the boss
at the beginning it was the sixties, the boss in
cultural heavy, the boss in cultural heafy.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
The course, yeah, of course you know.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
Something and that then and then in that course they
were talking about the values, the personal values and the
connection between personal values and the values of the company.
Fifty years ago fifty years ago, you imagine, and then
in the eighties they call it the Leaders, the Leaders
scores and then Excel and it was given by the
(37:35):
same employees, and I was well, I was revealing all
the exercises and everything that was great and all the
so Pinbo is a very very good example how they're
doing it with more than one hundred thousand people. And
this is a challenge because sometimes you have one hundred people.
One hundred people, people can say, Okay, this is easy
to to but it's not easy. But it could be easier. No,
(37:57):
but we had one more than one hundred though, some
people all over the world, different countries, and the way
they are doing it is great. I learned a lot
from them.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
I love the idea of coming and camping out of
learning from a company like that. I signed me up
for that. I want to do that, but specifically for
our listeners and viewers. I want to bring this home
for them, because I was so impressed to read this
in your book, Carlos, that you said that people the
idea so that when people come on board with Bimbo,
they shortly after joining they take one of these courses
(38:28):
you're talking about to help reflect on their personal purpose
and values relative to those of the company. And you
said it was at the time of your writing, it
was one hundred and thirty thousand employees, and they do
this around the globe, and so I just wanted to
situate that's going to be one of the best onboarding
programs I have ever heard of.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Yes, absolutely, and many things I learned this. I tell you,
it was like fifteen years ago when I was doing
this this week, and then I have been implementing this
with many companies and it works. It's a practice that
you can you can do. I mean, this is what
I told you is something even maybe a company for
(39:09):
many years they have this purpose and they have this culture,
et cetera. But you can develop with this kind of training.
You can develop from inside out, from inside. This is
a way to also to Flori is the purpose that
is already there in the people. So and this is
(39:30):
a way to when you are doing this, and it
could happen that somethings that people discover that this is
not the company they want to work for. And also it's.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Good, it's much as valuable. Absolutely, No, of course.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
It's better than having people that they don't want to
work and it's not aligned with the values and not
because they are against or sometimes because they have different
values and good h beautiful.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
So Bimbo is really a leading example and has been
for decades. That's amazing. The next one that I wanted
us to talk about was the univers Liver example around
the brand purpose that you were talking about in your book.
If you could bring that one to life.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
Yes, this is another one. But I started conversations with
univer here in Spain. Really I was interested to know
what they were implementing. And they developed like different programs
at different levels. Was it was the time where performance
was the seal, and they started developing the purpose for
(40:36):
the company, but also the brand purpose and then personal purpose.
And I think working at the three levels more or
less at the same time, they with one year the
difference they started running these different problems. There is another
way to trying to connect is not only company purpose
(40:59):
with personal purpose, but also and I think you delivery
is a very good example of this with the brand
purpose because it's a way to connect also with your customers.
So I think the big combination is the personal purpose,
company purpose and customers clients purpose. This connection of the
(41:22):
three is your company, your people and your clients. And
when you are connecting the three is magic. And this
is what I think they did. I mean, they show
me statistics that they have when they are successful implementing
the brand purpose together with the personal purpose, they have
(41:44):
growth that double the other brands that they are not
implementing a double they double. They have a lot of
statistics and numbers, and they're investing a lot of money
and this and this is very very important. But maybe
the challenge on this is to maintain this this connection
because then you make changes and you know Uniliver now
(42:07):
has made changes and they have a new CEO, a
different perspective, different and then this connection so also you
need to redefine, you need to adjust to so you
need to incorporate also the dynamism. When we were talking
on this, no, and this is probably something that Unliver
I was and I am doing research with Unilver. From
(42:30):
time to time we talk and I am following the
evolution of all these things. And the last time it
was one month ago. Uh, they explain it and well,
now we are with these challenges, we need to really
see how to make this alignment not to keep this
alignment also with the brands also, and this is something
it's not static and mean, it's purpose is a living thing,
(42:53):
so it's cultural. So anything. The key that I learned
from from this, from from Unilver others, but also we
are implemented in companies is this connection with the clients,
with the purpose of the client, with the purpose of
your people, and the purpose of your company.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Oh, this is such good stuff. I don't know why
anybody would wanted to stop everything they're doing and get
to work right on this in their company.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Okay. The last example I wanted to talk about, which
I was just so delighted to learn about, is you
talk about how an Indian it services company called HCl
Technologies promotes what they call the employee Passion Indicator, is
used to identify the key passions of employees and to
steer them towards jobs where they can actually put them
to best use. What a concept.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Wow, it is very nice. I think what they did
it in this way. You know in India they have
very good ideas, good names and concepts, and yeah, this
passion indicator, but this is very important. I have also
seen this in many many other companies where we are
finding Indeed, when you're touching the passion, you're touching personal
(44:06):
purpose somehow. You know this is a way at the
end of the day where you put a passion is
something normally where you are is the best of yourself purpose.
So you're something you are passionate about. But the important
thing is to keep it alive, to keep it alive,
and this is very important. You know this. This reminds
(44:30):
another another example that I'm living these days. I can
I can bring is a company that is called Alpha
Mega in Israel. This company it was I receive a
call from the CEO like twelve years ago and he said,
I wrote an article that you published about management, my
(44:51):
missions and purpose. Can you and you know I have
a company where we are working fifty arabs and fifty
percent juice. And I say, my goodness, how are you
doing this?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Serious, Well it's not easy, but we are very committed.
We want because we want to be an example of
peace and we want to demonstrate that in our company
it is possible to reach peace and this is our purpose.
Can you help me to develop this purpose in the
company as well? And the first I said that came
(45:27):
to my mind was Okay, do you have any other
company that is doing this and he said, no, we're
the only one in the whole Israel. Only we had
an orchestra that tried to do it and it was
a failure. It was impossible to do it. So I said, okay,
I have no idea how to do it, but I'm
going to fly to yoursel. And then I started working
with them. And you know, this is something because the
(45:50):
challenge is how to keep it alive. And why are
we telling you this because now they're in a severe war,
you know, yeah, yes, they are maintaining this commitment. They
are working together Arabs and US and being assigned an
example of how to live in peace and Urian and
it's incredible. You cannot imagine the kind of innovation. But
(46:14):
when I started working with this company, they were only
for it was like a startup for the employees. Now
they are in China, they are in the States, they
are competing against Metroni. They are really so the company
is incredible and they are keeping maintaining this commitment. Do
you want to be an example of how to live
(46:35):
on peace and in the middle of the war. So
it's something, and this is this is purpose. But it's
sense of purpose.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Oh my gosh, Carlos, thank you for sharing that. That
is amazing. I am so encouraged and heartened by that,
and I think our listener will be as well. So
it happened very fast. This our time goes together very by,
very quickly, already into the program. And I think you
know that the show is listening to my people around
the world, and many of them are looking for new
(47:07):
novel ways to be able to elevate their leadership, to
operate their businesses, or they're just looking for inspiration. What
should like to leave them with today?
Speaker 4 (47:17):
Let me allow let me repeat one thing that I
already said something, but the most important is what I
learned from other tress. Put love in everything you do,
because what counts is not how much you do, but
the love you put in the doing them. She was saying,
the love you put in the doing, you know the
(47:38):
most important thing. And for me it's the sumery of
everything I'm doing and to understand purpose. If you take
this idea, put love in the doing, then you get
ninety nine percent.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
Oh that is an amazing way to finish the colors today.
I am so beyond delighted to know you to be
connected to you, and you really can't hit away from me.
Now you do understand that, right. So I'm a pretty
fast runner and I do know how to get on
an airplane. So I'm sure there will be other conversations
for us to have because you're just doing too many
amazing things that I'm going to need you to come
(48:15):
back and we'll talk about some other things. And maybe
we can talk about some of the other projects that
you find out find out about or that you've been
investigating that will help us further show the examples of
how the stuff is being lived. I think that really
helps people understand take it from the abstract, this sounds
really nice. To wow, this is how it's lived and
how it actually makes a difference to the bottom line
of the organization.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Absolutely, thank you, my studies.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Very very very welcome doctor Carlos. Listeners and viewers, you're
going to want to learn more about this man, doctor
Carlos Sore and the work he is doing to elevate
the performance of companies at DPMC and his various publications.
So you can start by visiting the site. It's DPMC
dot e S for Spanish, you can go to dp
MC dot ees forward slash e N for English. So again,
(49:00):
that's D like dog, P like Paul, M, like Mary
C like Charles DPMC dot ees. We will see you
next week for another inspiring conversation on working on purpose
and remember work is one of the best means of
realizing potential on making the impact we crave. So let's
work on purpose.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
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