The Flourishing Effect: How Thriving Employees Drive Competitive Advantage

The pandemic transformed work forever, yet many leaders still cling to outdated practices that stifle autonomy, growth, and meaning—killing engagement and squashing performance. But what if thriving employees were the key to unlocking next-level success? In this episode, Tonille Miller, author of The Flourishing Effect, reveals how organizations can harness human potential, create high-performance cultures, and turn flourishing into a true competitive advantage.

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/working-on-purpose--2643411/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W four
CY Radio or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or
comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you

(00:20):
for choosing W FOURCY Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortez.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to with passion and pride since February of
twenty fifteen. Thanks Tondian this week. Great to have you.
I'm your host, doctor Elise corre Test. If we've not
met before and you don't know me, I'm an organizational
psychologist to management consultant, lebal therapist, speaker and author. My
team and I at Gusta Now help companies to enliven
and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high performance

(01:25):
culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose. Did
you know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers by
a factor of two point twenty five two one. In
other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line. You
can learn more about us and how we can work
together at gusto dashnow dot com or my personal site
at leascore test dot com. Now getting today's program we
have with us to Neil Miller a seasoned executive management

(01:48):
consultant and organizational psychologist specializing in transformation, organizational effectiveness, and
human performance. She is passionate about creating thriving ecosystems where
businesses succeed because people are empowered to do their best
work of lives. She's the author of the Flourishing Effect
unlocking employee thriving as your competitive Advantage, which is a
playbook for cultivating an environment where engagement, agility, and high

(02:09):
performance thrive. We'll be talking about various aspects from her book,
including learning from history to create companies and work experiences
that inspire rather than repel, the disconnect from the perspective
of those in the workforce, and what work feels like
for most people, and how companies and leaders can rise
to meet the needs of today's evolved workforce while succeeding mightily.

(02:30):
She judges us from New York to Neil, Welcome to
Working on Purpose.

Speaker 4 (02:33):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
It's great to have you. As I told you, we
are really quite quite aligned. And I loved every single
last word of your book. So excited to help bring
this to our listeners and viewers. First, I got to
start by saying, I just so your introduction to Neil
is one of the best introductions I've ever read in
a book. I was so excited to inspire by it.
So let's let this secret into our listeners and viewers

(02:57):
as well. You open with a fascinating historical account of
the Black Plague and the Italian Renaissance, and then you
situate it's parallel in our COVID pandemic and the promise
of today's world of work. So let's start there.

Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yes, thank you so much, first of all for having me.
I've been excited about this since we first chatted. So
the thing is is, I'm always listening to podcasts like
this one, like others, like a lot of us are.
And when I was writing the book, I was listening
to this podcast about the Renaissance, and I noticed the
parallels right away between the society at that point in
time emerging from the Black Plague in our recent pandemic,

(03:33):
and the more that I dove in I started to
research it, and I just was seeing all these again,
all these parallels and understanding that what was taking place
at that time across the world. It seemed like there
were so many similarities and which really led to an
inspiring result. Right, So the Renaissance obviously so much talent,
so much innovation, and things happened during that time, and
I thought, gosh, what a really great interesting message that

(03:56):
we can tie the parallels to what they did at
the end of the plague before the Renaissance, and we
can tie those parallels to maybe give us some hope
in this moment right when we're emerging from the pandemic
when I wrote this about two years ago, So in
many ways, this moment is similar as I talk about
in the book in the sense that you know, at
that time, society had really outgrown those old institutions, old beliefs,
old ways of being, yet it was really stuck in

(04:18):
kind of this this moment, this morass right from the
Black Plague, which had halted commerce and travel and learning
and innovation. So it was kind of like in this
stuck point, kind of like in that liminal stage, right
And I feel like right when we came out of
the pandemic when I wrote this, it's like we kind
of were in a similar point in time where it's like, well,
we're definitely not in Kansas anymore, but we don't know
where we're going to be next. And so I kind
of wanted to pull these parallels and then say, hey,

(04:41):
by the way, this has happened before, let's take some
lessons from the past. And I thought it was great
to pull on what the Medici family did at that
point in time when they rose to power, because they
did that through really anticipating and fostering that environment that nurtured,
empowered and inspired those great talent of the Renaissance. So
I thought, wow, well that's pretty cool. Why don't we

(05:01):
apply that to our modern environment? Right, these are some
things that leaders can actually do. And as I really
research like some of the things that they did, that gosh,
that's a lot of what I'm talking about in this book.
It's a lot of that meeting the human needs aspects.
So that's really where I got.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
That beautiful toil, great way to open. I was so
inspired by that story, and I love when we can
go back in history and learn from that. And I
think that is a very powerful opening for our listeners
and viewers anyone who reads your book, because when you
see what happened from that, I think that that opens something.
It helps us maybe get unstuck from how we're clinging
to our old ways of doing things and see possibilities

(05:36):
that are really, really grand. And that's what I want too. Yeah, Okay,
so I want to talk a little bit about just
really how it is that you are on this journey yourself.
Why aren't you in accounting or architecture. You've chosen this
particular path, so why this background, Why this kind of
work and why this journey you're taking us on.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
Yeah, I mean, like a lot of folks, I grew
up with a single parent, and for the most part,
basically grew up a single mom, and she juggled, you know,
for the most of my life, two to three jobs
at a time to make ends meet. And so watching
that as a little girl and really observing how much
time and energy that took away from her and from
me as a child and my brother, basically I kind
of just I didn't like it, and I was like,

(06:16):
that just seems weird, that doesn't seem how it should be.
And you know, ever since that time, I kind of
became acutely aware of how work had dominated most people's lives,
not just hers, but most people, no matter what type
of work it was, and also how rare it was
that somebody would say, Wow, I love my job. I
love what I'm doing. And so I kind of always
had that in the back of my mind growing up.
And then I thought, there's got to be a way
to fix this, right, because work takes so much time, energy, lifeblood,

(06:38):
et cetera, away from all of us. And so I
kind of started thinking, well, this is a really big
problem to solve. We all, for the most part, have
to work. So I started out, you know, as a researcher,
as a management consultant and iopsychologists and coach for these
companies trying to kind of figure out like what is
it that makes work so terrible in many cases? Right?
Like why? Why is it bad when it's bad? And
why is it good when it's good? And so I

(06:59):
always was kind of leading with that and picking up
pieces of the puzzle as I went along of like,
you know, employee well being and employee engagement and leadership
and change management, all these different things that I see
as really kind of different pieces of the puzzle or
the system and how they work together and when they work,
they work, and they do some amazing things that I
know we're going to talk about and when they don't work,
they don't work, and we're going to talk about those
things as well. And picking up those pieces as I

(07:21):
went along, I decide, Wow, this is really fascinating, and
a lot of people don't get it. Like we all
know that we have our gripes about work or somebody's
like the lucky person and I love my job, but
we don't really know why that is, and so I
really wanted to dig into that in this book.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
I love it very similar. I grew up on a
farm with farmers who I was raised with the idea
that work as a noble thing. It's the way that
we go through life. It is what we do in
service of our life. It's not something we had to
slog through. And two, I noticed that's part of my
research too. Is part of the reason I started hosting
the show is I wanted people to know that people

(07:55):
could actually really be passionate about what they do for work.
And that's how it started ten years ago anyway. So
such such strong parallels to Neil. So you know you
and I know this because we're researching. We talk about this,
but it's so hard for people to understand how much
the ways of working for so many people aren't working.
And you have some very interesting stats in the book

(08:17):
that I think even if we just share a few
of those, it will help our listeners and viewers understand
the gravity of the problem. Can you share a few
of them?

Speaker 4 (08:24):
Yeah? Absolutely. So we get into a lot of research
in this book because just like you, you got to ground
it in the research. And I think It's helpful too,
because when you read it, if people are HR practitioners
are managers, it's always helpful to ground whatever you're trying
to do in your organization or tell your leader you
should do grounded in the data. We know that that's
kind of the door into doing what you want to do.
So I think a couple of things that really come

(08:46):
to mind is just when you think about, like how
the old formulas you know, don't work anymore. I think
a lot of organizations kind of what's not working is
that they're trying to apply these old ways of thinking
that we're you know, really BUILTNDRED one hundred and fifty
years ago, back on the factory floors, and even before that,
you're trying to still apply those ways of thinking to
the current environment, which really presents I think, kind of

(09:07):
a distorted experience or a distorted reality for people that
are in the workplace. And so that's one of the
things just to keep that in mind is your back pocket.
But then also I think when you think about some
of these operating from the outdated social contract, right, So
I think we all are pretty aware that the days
when people dedicated their careers to a single organization and
in return, they got predictable raises, bonuses, and a pension.

(09:30):
I think we all know that that's kind of gone. Unfortunately,
that's not really happening anymore because there's no pensions. For
the most part, wages are underwhelming. Companies are perfectly comfortable
laying people off as soon as their profits dip below
a certain margin. And so I think that because that
contract isn't valid anymore, but yet we're still operating from that,
I think that also causes a real kind of riff
and like the reality of like what are we doing here?

(09:52):
And so I think there's some of those just different
pieces kind of like the foundational level. So those are
just things to kind of kick us off with. And
then that's even pre pandemic, right and then now coming
out of the pandemic, I mean, it's obviously been a
while now, but essentially leaders, as we're seeing in the media,
are now again continuing for five years trying to force
people to you know, return to the office and do

(10:12):
all these things, and we're just like, guys, we're not
there anymore. You know, it wasn't working leading up to
the pandemic, and now it's definitely not working. We're definitely
in a new world. We know we can work differently,
We've proved it that kind of thing, and because leaders
aren't adapting to that, I think that that's us all
obviously also kind of causing a rift there as well
with folks.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
Which we're going to dive more into as well and
after the break in the second segment. But I also
want to point out something that's really really important that
I think are on the serce and viewers really need
to understand. That's so important of your book, and you
talk about it's the march toward irrelevancy and non existence. Right,
So these when you when you embrace these old ways
of working in these old formulas, you are ripe for disruption.

(10:55):
I think that's really important to understand. If you'd say
more about that.

Speaker 4 (10:59):
Yeah, I mean so again, it's kind of tricky to
talk about this sometimes because I know we're doing this
real time, and things are changing in real time in
our world. You know, ten years ago you could write
about something and it would be relevant right for about
a couple of years at least. Right now we're updating
it moment to moment. So I say that because there's
a lot of things there, right, So there's the word practices,
which we'll get into more of those and more depth,
i'm sure, as we've talked about some of them, like

(11:20):
the return to office all that stuff, but also a
lot of it is really leaders specifically if you think
about just like if you look at the stats of
like how much income level, lived experience, gender, race, all that,
Like the CEO, the average sea level leader doesn't look
or have a lived experience that's similar to their average
employee for the most part. So there's no disconnect there too,

(11:41):
where they're like, oh, I know what my people want,
I know what they need. They got to get back
in the office. That's how you know, it's like that
gap is getting wider and wider every day. And then
also again with technology, it's like people live in a
world where like they have you know, Netflix and Spotify
and Amazon catering to their every need, and then they
go to work and it feels like nineteen eighty five
on the inside, and that's a big disconnect too. So

(12:02):
there's all these things that I'm sure we'll dive into next,
but it's all these things where just organizations the way
they operate from these old school ways of working just
are not relevant to people anymore, and so a lot
of folks, as we're seeing, are really jumping in at
the gig economy and some other structures.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
I really thought it was powerful to know the way
that you really pointed that out, that you know, people
have now gotten so used to a life where they
can order anything they want from Amazon, it's there the
next day or this afternoon, or you know, the whole
Netflix experience, and it's just everything and there's so much
quality around them. And then to your point, now we
go back to work or the office, and to your point,
it feels like nineteen eighty five. I think that's a

(12:37):
really important point for listeners, viewers, and readers to really
understand about this major disconnect. So I wanted to just
hammer that home. I want to also talk a little
bit about this idea of really and I appreciate that
you you know, part of what you're really focused on
is experience. What you're saying here, according to you, since

(12:58):
we have so many more options for for ways to
make money these days, that people are not trusting you
know that they're going to have a job, you know,
for for forever. They're exploring other ways, And so you say,
companies need to offer a compelling experience that the ever
evolving workforce can't find elsewhere, and that takes a lot
of work. And I want to make sure listeners and
viewers that you don't feel like we're talking act you

(13:19):
were down to you. This leading today is one of
the hardest jobs in the whole entire world, and we're
here to help. So if you could say a little
something about, you know some of this, you know these ways,
this so the solution you see people do in side
hustles and the gig economy, entrepreneurship, multiple streams of income.
But if you could see a little bit about you know,

(13:40):
this idea of enticing through this experience and going back
and learning from the meditis, the Renaissance and how they
really created this whole other world, what might this improved
experience look like.

Speaker 4 (13:54):
Oh yes, no, it's it's so good. And there's so
many things too. And here's the other part too that
I'll bring up to because I think it's important, is
it's not just a lot of things that we're going
to talk about, but these are like pretty much low
no cost things. Most of the book is a lot
of practical stuff that doesn't cost a thing or it's
very little, right right, right, right, So so we can't
the leaders don't have any excuse of like, oh that's
too expensive. No it's not. It's literally just being deliberate,

(14:15):
it's not expensive. So all kinds of things. But what
I the way that I frame it up in the
book is I kind of frame it in terms of
meeting people's human needs and not frustrating those needs, which
again we'll talk about shortly. I'm sure of like what
things cause that and that sort of thing. But again,
what the Medici's did, which is very similar to what
we're talking about, is if you think about like needs
for meaning and purpose, needs for connection well being, you know,

(14:39):
we have actualization or growth that kind of thing, autonomy
another one. So these are all things and we can
get into some real practical ways that do it, but
it's like meeting these needs and removing any of the friction,
which we can talk a lot about. There's a lot
of friction in the right and so doing that type
of thing is exactly what the Medici's did. So they
literally just quick for those who don't know, like a

(15:01):
lot of them, just like overview of the things they
did for these folks is again, they were patrons of
these artists, right, so they kind of took care of
their living expenses. They gave him place to live, and
maybe they didn't pay them a ton of money sometimes,
but they had all their basic needs taken care of.
So that's off the table. So they can actually use
their brain and their energy to be creative and innovative
and not stress every day, which the average employee, even
even a year or two ago it was like this,

(15:23):
but especially now. I mean, we talk about the price
of eggs, we talk about everything. We're not getting political,
but the point is the average employee is not the
wages of not cut up. We'll just say that, right,
the wages of not cut up with them surviving and living.
So I guarantee you when I'm stressing about can I
pay my rent? Can I afford to go to the doctor,
Can I afford my prescriptions? Can I afford this child?
All this stuff, I'm definitely not giving you my best

(15:43):
at work. So there's that well being piece that's taken
care of as a foundation. If you think about Maslow's
hierarchy of needs, it's towards the bottom. Then we talk about,
you know, psychological safety, creating that kind of environment. Organization.
The Medici's did that as well, right, like really giving
people the autonomy to go and use their genius. What
do you want to create? I don't care, I'm gonna
fund you. You go do you because we know that
you're good at what you do and that's why we

(16:04):
hired you in the organization. So that kind of stuff
is really important and again offering different growth and meaning
and purpose needs. And the other part too that was
really cool about the Medici's and organizations can easily do
this lots of ways is they created kind of an
artist community. So it was really kind of a cool
thing of being part of these few people that were
patroned by the Medici's and it was like this cool
artist community. There's lots of salons and lots of things

(16:26):
where they go and they interact together and they trade stories.
And some of them were competitive, like Michelangelo and Da
Vinci as we probably all know. So there's all these
kinds of cool dynamics happening there. So it kind of
built some competition too. It was like healthy, but it
was safe. It was psychologically safe. And then I think
finally just again the meaning and purpose they really got.
They got to see what their work did. Even some
of those folks who obviously passed away before they saw

(16:48):
their fame, but they were seeing their statues, they were
seeing their pieces up in the town and just different
things going forward and just being part of this community
was a really big deal for folks. So again, there's
lots of easy ways we can do this in organizations,
but it's really focusing on removing that friction and meeting
those needs.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
Beautiful to Neil, and it's so inspiring. So and that's
the world that I want to help ushuare and as
well Sin. This was a great way to kick us off.
Let's grab our first break. I'm your host, doctor Early's Cortes.
We are on the air with Tanil Miller, a seasoned
executive management consultant and organizational psychologists specializing in transformation, organizational effectiveness,
and human performance. So you's passionate about creating driving ecosystems

(17:26):
where businesses succeed because people are empowered to do the
best work of their lives. We'll be right back. We've
been talking a bit about how things the state of
the possibility of learning from the medicis in that history,
and next after the break, I want to help you
understand We want to help you understand the disconnect for
the workforce, what is their actual experience. We'll be right back. Okay,

(17:47):
all right, so let's dive into this second piece here.
So what I wanted to talk about for this segment here, Tanil,
as you know, is I want to really help our
listeners and viewers understand what it's like for the workforce.
As you said earlier, a lot of executives think they
have a pretty good handle on what it is for
the workforces experiencing, but they really don't. So I like

(18:07):
what you said before that the workforce has outgrown today's economy,
excuse me, today's company structure, operations, and leadership. So let's
talk a little bit about really that. What does that mean?

Speaker 4 (18:17):
Yeah, absolutely, So again not to touch too much on
what we already talked about, but again, a lot of
our current workplace practices are still based if you think
about performance management, you think about just a number of
hours in the chair, all that stuff that was based
on industrial era workplace practices, right, So that was literally
when you had to be in a factory because that's
where the work had to take place. Joe had to

(18:38):
put his cog on here and then Jane did her thing.
Probably Jim probably wasn't a Jane back in the right, right,
right right, So you had to be in the space
and you had to sit there all day. And so
that's how it had to be. So I get it right,
that had to happen. That's not the case anymore. And
so because of that, again, this distorted reality happens. And
so I think one of the things to think about
if you think about that current experience is I kind

(18:58):
of break it down into three different buckets of what's
causing this disengagement at such high levels. I think gallops gosh,
I don't know what it is today, but when I
wrote the book, it was around like eighty five percent
of people are disengaged. And so if you think about
the cost of that is like nine trillion dollars with
a tea, that's insane. So I say that just to
give you that as a burning platform there, and so
I break down into three buckets. So the first piece

(19:21):
that's causing the problem, I think is the organization provides
this distorted reality. As we talked about in the beginning, right,
So using those old ways of working, old formulas, old
ways of measuring performance, return to the office, you have
to be here, old technology. All that stuff is like
again feels like a distorted reality inside the organization, because
we all know that's not how the world is outside

(19:41):
of it. So that's one piece that's really kind of
I think, messing with folks. The other part, as we
again kind of alluded to, is these work practices that
contradict human nature. So again this is usually inadvertently, it's
not usually on purpose, but like when we think about
all the friction, all the frustrating the needs like for autonomy,
for growth, for agency, certainty, mastery, meaning all that stuff,

(20:02):
when that gets frustrated in the workplace, that also causes
a big problem. And again a lot of this treating
adults like children. The return to office demands micromanaging, not
co creating with people when you're launching changes or you know,
doing things that are going to impact their role. A
lot of that time is done in the HR suite, right,
or it's done in private. It's not done with people.

(20:22):
So a lot of my work and change management taught
me that that you want to bring in a cross
section of people, especially the people that you think are
going to be resistant to changes or different things you're
trying to do. Yep, you bring them in early and
you get them to just bring that stuff right out
in the front. We're going to get it all in
the open, and then we can actually proactively build like
a resistance management plan into the change plan and the
ways that we do things. So it's like, oh, we're

(20:43):
going to address your concerns upfront. Oh, you're going to
be even more committed because you're building that change with us, right,
and we listen to you and I see this work
like magic every time. So there's that piece, and then
there's certain things like this, So just see if any
of these ring true for anybody. So there's like treating
people like value to be extracted. Right, So when we
think about layoffs, ghosting people that are applying for jobs,

(21:05):
expecting superhuman you know, non burnout expectations that you're always on,
you're always doing all this stuff like this is treating
people like value to be extracted, not like people. And
we all know we don't like that as a client
or a customer. So we also know people don't like
that as employees. So there's that. There's also I think
one of the big hurdles here is the work itself

(21:26):
often isn't as engaging or isn't engaging, because it's been
stripped of the autonomy, the creativity, the ownership, if you will,
in return for standardizing it. And again that standardization comes
from the Industrial Revolution, It comes from factory floors, which
is not the work we're doing today today. Our people
need to be creative, they need to be innovative, and
that doesn't lend itself to that. And so the interesting

(21:48):
part about this too, and I talk about this in
a book and that was so funny, is that you
know when they went through because again, before the Industrial Revolution,
a lot of the work, to your point, you know,
was farming, it was artisans, it was artists, it was
things like that where people had lots of creativity, autonomy,
they had the meaning and purpose because they saw how
their product impacted the consumer. That type of thing. Well,

(22:09):
when the Industrial Revolution came in, that stripped the work
of all that stuff just to be consistent and standardized.
And I think it was Adam Smith who said something
around the lines of he wanted the work to be
be how did he say it. He said, it's something
like become as stupid and ignorant as possible, Like he
wanted the work to be able to be for people
who were not skilled, not trained, and we basically just

(22:31):
need your hands to move these cogs on the thing.
We don't need your brain. We don't want your brain.
So there's that piece when you think about the lack
of engagement, and then we have bad managers. There's plenty
of stats around that. Again, treating people like children, I
think is a big theme here as well. And then
I think a lot of a lot of folks talk
about I think Gallup talked about this. Over half of

(22:51):
employees say something like they don't know what's expected of
them at work, so a lack of clarity. And it's like, well,
how can I give you my best if I don't
even know what I'm aiming for? Kind of a right,
And then I think the third bucket And again I'm
rattling lots of stuff off here, so please just stop
me along the way. But I want to make sure
everyone gets all the data. But the other piece is
like not taking it from an employee centric lens, because

(23:13):
we try to if we're good as a company. We
do this from a customer perspective pretty well, right, We
build personas we journey map them. We do all kinds
of smell, kinds of money and time and energy get
inside the customer's head. And that's great, but we don't
really do that for our employees unless you're you know,
an anomaly, which is rare. And so I always bring
up the fact that, like with leaders, is like one
of the key tenants of this behavioral economics and persuasion

(23:35):
psychology that we're trying to do with clients and customers
is make it as easy as possible for people to
do what you want them to do. And this works
with your dog and your kids too, right, this works
with everybody. But right, but if we don't do that,
and we and we have all kinds of friction as
we mentioned earlier buocracy, tons of meetings, lots of new tech,
and we're not doing good change management around it, lots
of emotional friction. If it feels like another job on

(23:58):
top of their job, then this is an environment that's
ripe for disengagement of course and burnout. So you know,
so those are those are the kind of the big buckets.
And then in that bucket too, is just kind of
making a lot of the companies I've seen where they
make the leaders of the company like the stars, like
on the on the career's page. It's like, look at
our awesome leadership team and look at how we're number
one in this industry and all this stuff. And I'm

(24:18):
thinking to myself, if I want to work there, do
I care? I mean, maybe I do it, and maybe
if I'm really into being the most customer centric company
in the world, and I think I'm going to go
be the CEO. Fine, But as the average junior employee,
why do I care that you think your leadership team
is great? You know what I mean? Like, why do
we care about this kind of stuff? Like we need
to really make it more of the hero's journey type
of thing and make it the employee the hero and say, hey,

(24:41):
you're the hero. This is the cool mission you're going
to be on when you work in our company. And
here's your manager who's the guide or whwever you want
to phrase it, but like really positioning it in terms
of the employing centric mindset. And so I think a
lot of companies don't do that. And so that's those
are kind of the bigger buckets that I see when
it comes to the experience that are problems.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
Okay, so let me chime in on a of those
things that I really want to kind of hammer home.
I hate to say it that way. That sounds terrible
since we're talking about this bring home, shall we say?
But you know this whole idea you talked about how
the workplace is really designed for efficiency and surveillance. I
mean I still know companies that still are spying on
their employees. That is to me just zero trust and

(25:21):
just really should be eradicated from the planet. And of
course the compliance factor. And so now what we get is,
as you say, is we do get this tremendous burnout.
I mean, burnout is something that more and more organizations
are dealing with. You're going to see it in your
higher healthcare premiums. People leaving or leaving the organization entirely,
or taking time away to try to get well again.
So the turnover, the disengagement, and then I really want

(25:42):
you to speak of it to this. I have never
heard anybody say this before to Neil, and I think
it's so spot on. You say disengagement is a coping
mechanism any healthy human would employ to avoid the cognitive
dissonance or mental discomfort, having to function in an environment
where they find themselves uns they've stifled, or having to

(26:02):
otherwise have it live in a warped experience of reality
many organizations create. I've never heard anybody say that it
was a coping mechanism, and I totally embrace that.

Speaker 4 (26:13):
Yeah, I mean, thank you for that. Yeah, it was
one of those things. It just kind of just occurred
to me, and it seemed like, how do people not
get this? But again, they're not psychologists like us. Of
course they're not thinking that way probably, but you know,
I decided it. I'm like, you know, nobody wakes up
every day and chooses to disengage from work. Like they
don't wake up and say, ooh, I want to spend
all my time a third of my life in a
state of boredom, frustration, anxiety, stress, and alienation. They don't

(26:36):
do that, right, just s areing a paycheck. They are
not doing that on purpose. And I think the disengagement,
as we mentioned, it's a coping mechanism because it helps
them avoid the cognitive dissonance or mental discomfort. I would
call it and having to function in that environment where
they find themselves unsafe or stifled or confused or warped.
Reality that we talked about, it's like their brain, it's

(26:56):
kind of like just not it's just like the subconscious,
like not even conscious. It's like, oh my god, I
have to function here, so I need to find a
way to make it work. Right, So I think they
just kind of do it without even realizing it.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
Yeah, And then again, since we want to really bring
home the experience of the employee, I want to talk
about what you found with John Clifton, the CEO of Gallup.
You quote him as saying, humanity is trying to figure
out every way possible to get away from work. Employees
aren't just emotionally detached. They're angry about what they're what's
happening in the workplace. And that you do quote the

(27:27):
eighty five percent disengage spot figure. So you know, when
you recognize people are coming to work angry, this is
really not working, folks. I mean, mayday, maybe what do
we need to do here to get your attention that
this is not the way to go? I mean, oh,
so you know, and the cost that you put in
there and then you go on to say this I

(27:47):
really align with this is that you know, you have
this notion of, of course, how much time that we
spend talking about these things. But you say, when you
add up to seven point eight trillion dollar cost of
loss productivity due to engaged employees, we're talking about ninety
percent of the global GDP, nearly double the market cap
of Google, Amazon, and Apple combined. And his work gets

(28:09):
interesting form my vantage point. And that doesn't even account
for the time, energy, and life stolen from each disengaged
employee stolen.

Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah, and it doesn't have to be this way. That's
the sick part, like you role, and I don't think
most leaders walk in to work everybody saying, Ooh, I'm
going to make everyone you know feel like crap and
I'm going to steal their life. No one's saying that,
but it's because people aren't deliberate about this, and unfortunately
there aren't enough people like you and I who are.
Actually I would recommend a sea level role in the

(28:40):
organization that looks across the entire vantage point. I'm not
talking to an HR leader, because unfortunately there's some really
great ones, but most of the HR. First of all,
it's fire you know, it's like it's firefighting and it's
reacting to this, and it's payroll, and it's it's often
not that strategic unfortunately, and so we need someone that
can see the vantage point at the sea level across everything.
And it's very much the employee experience. It's all the

(29:01):
stuff we're talking about. They partner with all with it,
with the commer chief commercial officer, with everybody to understand
how it like, just like you would understand every step
of the customer journey, you and I understand every step,
every moment of the employee journey and bring them in
listen to this.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
Yes, and then so then the last thing I want
to talk about for this particular segment is I just
I don't understand why we have all of these large
organizations having a forced mandate return to the office. I
don't you know, during the pandemic, we actually talked about
well being. Even Gallup moved and talked away from engagement too.
Well being. To me, when I see these force mandates,

(29:40):
there's no way that they're taking into consideration what the
employee needs and how they can flourish. There's it's a
one sighted view. I want you here. I want your
dairy er in this seat at this time. What happened
to Neil? Why did we lose the mooring there? And
what is causing Do you think that fears just returned
back to like the riverband, trying to snap back to

(30:01):
where it was.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
Yes, Oh my god. I feel like every time I've
talked about this in the last five years, it's my
answer is a different moment to moment because as we
see different news stories and different companies are making different
demands at different times, and we've gone back and forth,
as you mentioned them with the rubber band, Oh now,
employees have the power, they say, because there's a tougher
job mar or tougher market to find people. Oh now,
it's a tougher job mark all the stuff. And so

(30:23):
unfortunately that's not the game we should be playing. That's
not the game that is being played. But that's the
game that leaders are trying to play. And so the
thing is is to your point, I it's just I'm
almost nauseous when I talk about this now because it's
like I just don't get it. I've spoken to a
lot of them, a lot of the work I've done
in the last five years has been around helping companies
transition to that more hybrid model and not you know,

(30:44):
rescind and not go back in their tracks. And unfortunately
the ones that are especially lately, they're bringing it all back,
bringing the demands back. There's a lot of things here.
I think one of the biggest things is is we
know it's not rocket science. They're just not comfortable, they
don't believe, they don't trust that people are working, they
don't don't know how to lead. I've had some of
them pulled me aside and said, hey, privately, I just
don't feel important if I don't have people in the

(31:04):
office kind of scurrying around and I look important, Like, honestly, candidly,
I don't feel important if I'm not their talent people
what to do? What's my purpose? And so I'm like, wow, right,
And I think that's more common than we realize. So
there's that, there's the old school mindset where this is
how I grew up and I don't know how to
lead any other way. But guess what we can get
up skilled. We can get podcasts, we can get books,
we can get coaching, like all the things. So it's

(31:27):
just kind of like that I think there's a lot
of ego involved with some of them, a lot of
them that are doing it. I do think it's ego,
especially in the last five six months or so that
they're doing it again. But unfortunately they are going to
long term. It's it's such a short game, I think,
and I do think that this is just like I
think Brene Brown calls this Powerover's last stand. So it's
like the last stand. We're just clinging to this what

(31:49):
we think is our power. And unfortunately they're losing their
top talent because when they do that, who leaves top talent?

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (31:56):
Right, there are many other options. Yeah, and they have
other options, and they know that they how they work
best and all this stuff. Top talent, especially in today's
economy that needs creativity and innovation, et cetera. They don't
flourish when they're being told to sit in a chair
for a certain number of hours a day for an
arbitrary reason and check a box and whatever like that's
not really the kind of talent. That's what you should
be getting robots and AI to be doing. Right, So

(32:16):
I think what organizations need to be doing, and I
know they're going to get there it's just taking some time.
Is really focusing on one way to solve this problem,
I think is instead of focusing on ours and all
these old school mindsets of how we measure performance, Let's
find out what the real metrics are, the real KPIs
that actually move the needle, what is the things that
make the impact, and then measure performance on that and

(32:37):
then who cares when we're how what they would work?

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Right?

Speaker 4 (32:41):
But because we don't do that, because leaders don't have
that to reach for quickly, they go back to the
way that things were. So I think that would actually
be a good solve for this.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
Okay, I think that's very powerful. All right, let's grab
our break here. I'm your host, doctor Early's Cortes. We
were on the air with to Neil Miller. She's a
seasoned executive management consulting and an organizational psychologists specializing in transformation,
organizational effectiveness, and human performance. She's passionate about creating thriving
ecosystems where businesses succeed because people are empowered to do
the best work of their lives. We've been talking about

(33:13):
what the experience is like of the actual employees who
you depend on to get the work done and realize
the mission of your organization. After the break, we're going
to bring it home and help you by giving you
giving youse and information on how companies and leadership can
rise to meet the needs of today's evolved workforce and
thus succeed mightily. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Doctor Elise Court says as a management consultant specializing in
meaning and purpose, an inspirational speaker and author, she helps
companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop
purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to
invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit

(34:08):
her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to
get your employees working on purpose. This is working on
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email
to a lease a lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now

(34:31):
back to working on purpose.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I too,
Like Danil, I am dedicated to helping create a world
where people realize their potential at work. Are led by
inspirational leaders who help theme find and contribute their greatness,
and we do business that betters the world. I keep
researching and writing my own books, so my last one
came out in twenty twenty three. It's called a Great
Revitalization How activating meaning and purpose can radically end even

(35:00):
your business, And like to Neil, it's really designed to
help leaders understand how the world of work and workforce
has changed, and it provides twenty two best practices to
fold into your culture to create that for them. You
can find my books on Amazon or my website. Please
Quretts dot com if you are just joining us. My
guest is to Neil Miller. She's the author of The
Flourishing Effect, unlocking employee thriving as your competitive advantage. So,

(35:24):
of course in the last segment we talked about what
it was like for the employee, and for this segment,
I want to start helping our listeners and viewers think
about ways they can start to meet the evolved needs
of today's workforce. And the first thing that you talk
about is the importance of updating your operating system to
meet the moment, and also which includes when you do
want people back in the office, give them a reason

(35:45):
to be there.

Speaker 4 (35:48):
Yes, And this is something that I think is really
interesting and really important because again, we can complain all
day long about the fighting of who's right this and that,
but I think we need to offer real solutions. So
the first thing I would say is again, give them
that that reason to come to the office. And a
few of these things that come to mind from my
perspective is make the office a high profile destination. Right,

(36:08):
So this is something that leaders can do, right, make
it the cool place to go. Right. So it's like
it's it's long been this mundane, boring place where you
just kind of have to come every day. But what
if instead it was like a place where people are
really eager to visit, right, and they heard great things
are happening there and they felt like they're kind of
missing out if they weren't there. So you can do
this by really curating connections, exposure to leaders and offering

(36:32):
I guess tailored I would call it tailored kind of
kind of epic experiences, right, So this could be like
guest speakers or things like that. And really just creating
this environment that fosters that creativity, the collaboration, that type
of thing, because again, we can all work great at
home or in our little coffee shops or whatever, but
when we want to collaborate and come in, it's like
a really cool place. I think that's one way you
can do it is just build build a place that

(36:54):
looks and feels like that and people are buzzing about it.
And then I think with that, you know, like you
kind of woul don't want to have a full calendar
of experiential events, is what I would call it, right,
so things that they can't really get at home they
really want to come to the office for. So again,
some of my clients have done things like they've had concerts,
escape rooms, volunteer community events, you know, speakers again, as
I mentioned things like that, and I think that that

(37:15):
really helps out, especially if it's done ahead of time
and people know ahead of time they have a calendar
to look at and kind of plan their visit. I
think the other piece here again is just number one,
curating the connection, like why are they coming in, giving
them a reason to write, helping them understand what's the reason,
what's the purpose. Maybe it's a working session whatever, but again,
creating that connection is really big. Here. Let's see what

(37:36):
else I.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
Think again, one more thing we've got to talk about.
This is so cool. Choose your own adventure career paths,
like so many people wanted. I guess from my research,
they leave their manager and then because they're not learning
and growing. And I love this idea of choosing your
own adventure career path If you could talk a little
bit about that.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
Yeah, absolutely, And this is what people This is especially
what the younger generation is already doing on the side.
So why not do that organization to keep them in age, right,
because you have more resources to do so. But again
we all know this like one size fits all career ladders. Again,
this old ways of working thing, it's not working anymore.
And so with that, they're they want like they're not
they don't necessarily want the same thing that other generations
want it where it was like very linear and traditional.

(38:14):
Instead they want to like we want to create growth
in like in their earning power and their achievements. Right,
So they want to give them freedom. We want to
give them all kinds of different ways to learn. And
I can talk through some of those what those look like.
But there's like all kinds of things like career marketplaces,
reverse mentoring and embracing their gig, their gig, their side
gig or their side hustle, that type of thing. Like
there's all kinds of different ways we can do this,

(38:36):
but really offering them these ways of kind of lateral moves,
trying things on in different areas, and then with that
not just saying here's another thing, because again, they want
to do different things and learn new things because they
know at the end of the day, they're not getting
that pension. They're not staying there forever. We all know that.
So they want to be more valuable when they leave
your organization, and so giving them these opportunities to learn
and stretch and grow in different ways is going to
be really valuable.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
Love that that's so great. The next you know this
is of course, you can't get off the air without
talking about purpose with me, right, And I love how
you situated as the north Star people can believe in
and I find I'm so amazed to me, like there's
some new oranizations that records. Yeah, purpose is really important.
Oh yeah, we've got this purpose statement that we're not living,
and nobody knows anything about what it means. Right. So,
but more and more of the workforce and the consumers

(39:20):
are more intentional and concerning about the companies they choose
to associate with, and they want to align on those
values for what they buy and where they go to work.
So can you say a little bit more about just
how to activate purpose?

Speaker 4 (39:32):
Yeah? Absolutely, Well, first I just want to throw one
little side note in here too, is that I think
a lot of people, especially leaders, they hear the word
purpose and they think of it like culture. Right. Oh, yeah,
we know it's important, but they don't really understand what
it is, and they don't really understand that it's actually
a very strategic tool. Right, do it the right way.
If you're deliberate about it and you really focus on it,
it does a couple of things, right. So the purpose

(39:53):
of purpose is how I frame it is. It's a
strategic tool to guide the organization. It can build trust,
it can garner respect by your motivation, pride and commitment.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Right.

Speaker 4 (40:02):
So the way that I kind of think about that
is it guides leaders again by serving as that north star, right,
So that kind of helps them understand. Okay, when there's
some social issue in the media, do they speak out
on it or do they not? Right, if it doesn't
align with their purpose, they probably shouldn't be speaking about it.
If it does, then they may want to. It builds
trust because it lets people know what to expect from you.
That could be your employees as well as your shareholders.

(40:22):
That type of thing again unites stakeholders because they know, oh, yeah,
well we want profit. If we think about like capitalism, right,
conscious capitalism, it's like, well, we know that this is
our purpose. So according to that, then you stakeholders over
here need to get on board like it. It offers
I think, a non emotional, very objective way to be
very strategic in nature and really give people that perspective

(40:43):
and really giving again employees, giving them something to believe in, right,
because again, it's one of those things where it's like,
as you mentioned, whether you're a consumer or an employee,
you really want to know that your hours or dollars
and or dollars really matter in today's world. And so
there's a lot of ways you can do this. A
lot of companies do it, but I think one really
good example is Unilever. They actually did what I would

(41:04):
call they get bonus points because they not just developed
their own purpose as a company, which a lot of
companies do have a quote purpose, but they actually said,
let's take it a step further and let's hold some
workshops and do some exercises with our executive team first
and later on they did it with the entire company,
but they rolled it out and they basically in these
smaller workshops, they helped through facilitation, understand what each individual

(41:24):
employee's purpose was, like they kind of worked through that exercise,
and then at the end of that they connected each
of those purposes to the organizational purpose. And so that's
really the most powerful thing ever, right right right, I.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Totally know because I do that as well. I want
to also through in that little pot as As a
great example, the Mexican Bacrease Organization BEMBO. They have they
operate in twenty two different countries around the world. They
have a last coup one hundred and thirty thousand employees.
And because the founder recognized that this isn't a company,
it's it's an organization of combined souls, they do a

(41:56):
similar exercise when they onboard, they have their people learn
to discover or detect their own purpose and their values
and look for how can they thurn that through and
with that of the organization to therefore expand themselves. And
I think it's tremendous, so tremendous love that I did too.
I did too. So I'm just a couple more things

(42:18):
I want to get from you before you go, because
there's so much, so much value here. But I have
to have you talk about the chapter it's called the
King has Been to Throne, the fundamental shift in leadership,
you know, just the importance first of leading yourself first.
Can you talk about a little bit about that?

Speaker 4 (42:34):
Yeah? Absolutely, So this is the thing that I actually
I am writing it a second book right now, and
I'm talking a lot about the individual level, right so,
not just as a leader, but as any person on
an individual level, you have to lead yourself first. So
that means a lot of things, but basically just on
a basic level, super self awareness. Do all the assessments
you can do, all the reflecting, all the journaling, all
the different there's so much out there resource wise. You

(42:54):
get gpt it whatever you want, but get to know
yourself and your motivations, your blind spots, zones of genius,
your shadow, all that stuff like that is number one,
especially as a leader, because all that stuff is going
to come out in the workplace. I'm not aware of it, right,
So we need to do that. Everyone lead yourself. And
then also with that too, understanding like as so many
leaders they praise themselves and each other on ooh, I

(43:16):
hustled in grind and didn't sleep for three days. This
is so great. I'm like, no, it's not great because
we all know that that's coming out in your workforce
and your people are feeling it. It's not good. It's
just it's not good for your health, it's not good
for your well being. You're probably snapping at people all
kinds of things. So just again, leading yourself first, very simple.
But once you fill your own cup, then you have
the resources and the ability to pay it forward, right

(43:39):
and really help focus on other people and be developing
them and focusing on that bigger picture. So the number
one thing is just do that because I think it'll
help you really overcome your ego in a lot of
cases too.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah, And I you know, I also like I believe
very strongly in getting you talk about in your book
and these outside sources outside your usual circle. You know,
I have I always have at least two coaches that
I'm working with for myself. So and then you also
talk about you just recognize you're no longer the hero
your people are. And then you talk about being a
meaning maker, you know, helping people recognize how they matter.

(44:10):
Of course, Zach mccuria has done on my program. He's
coming back a little bit again later. He's known for
that kind of work. There's so much that you can
do to be an effective leader and be dethroned and
you work and therefore be more effective. I really want
to talk about this. I think this is probably benda.
Our last point here is I love the idea, and

(44:30):
I think this should be the promise of every organization,
is to make your people a better version of themselves,
activate their strengths, their potential and their mastery. It's just
spend a little bit of time talking about that.

Speaker 4 (44:41):
Yeah, I mean, I came across as stat when I
was writing it that they said only five percent of
people feel like they are meeting their full potential at work.
Think about that five percent crazy, and companies are complaining
all the time, Oh, we're not productive enough, we're not
this and that, and I'm like, you're only leveraging five
percent of your people and they're getting stifled and leaving
because of it. They're underwhelmed, and that's the cause of
burnout as well, right, just feeling underutilized. It's such a

(45:03):
big deal. It's such a big opportunity for both the
company and for the people. And so in the book
on that chapter, I make it a point to really
talk about like some really interesting cool ways that I've
seen companies do this and again low no cost options here.
So again personal purpose. Right, We've already talked about this,
aligning the purpose. It literally doesn't cost anything. It's just
helping people. It's just how we discuss it and connecting

(45:24):
the dots and helping people see how their work fits
that purpose. Job crafting, amy resisties work. Yep, people can
go google it if you don't know it. It's really impactful.
Internal marketplaces, apprenticeship programs, reverse mentoring again, embracing their side hustles.
I mean I work with clients where they actually are
so transparent with their people that their people tell them
their side hustles, and one of them even funds some

(45:46):
of their side hustles into parts of their business. Like,
there's so many different ways you can do that. But
the point is, because the social contract is different. People
aren't staying forever. They need again to feel more valuable
when they leave you than when they came to you,
which means you need to really folks on this.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
Yeah, I love this. You also talk about peer coaching
as being another thing. I also loved what you talked
about Netflix, your Netflix, your L and D department right
gone to the days of relying solely on traditional training methods,
but to upscale your your your workforce using these other ways,
these other dynamic ways to keep them learning. I love

(46:21):
that as well. M Let's see we are pretty close
to me in here, but maybe you have to say
a little bit about this. You've got a chapter of
purpose in every job, the art of meaning making. We've
talked a little bit about this already, but can you
just say maybe a couple of things about that.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think we all are aware. I
mean I think it's I personally think it's a human need.
It's not just a gen Z need or a millennial need. Correct,
that's what the media talks about, but it's all of
us as humans. We all have a need for meeting
and purpose, as you know with the logo therapy, and
yes that's a whole podcast in its own, I hope.
But the good news is there's so many ways again
as you are building this into the work for your
people that cost nothing. It's simple things like the manager

(47:00):
connecting the dots, showing Joe his picture, his spreadsheet and
how that impacts the client or how it impacts this
upstream team or whatever. Just connecting dots for people, showing
them they matter. David Burkis psychologist, does some great work
on highlighting interdependence, helping people how their inputs contribute to
people's output or you know, vice, whatever the case may be.
And it's simple things like that shared purpose on a

(47:23):
team to get a team rallied around it. There's all
kinds of really interesting ways you can do this, but
it's just a matter of how you language the work basically, maybe.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
Talk about languaging, talk about sense making, you know, really
helping people recognize you're overlooking the actual employee experience and
you're missing the chance to really unleash that intrinsic motivation
when people seeing to your point, how they're connected to
the bigger mission of the organization. I also liked in
terms of making it the return on experience for the offices.

(47:53):
You bring in customers or clients to showcase and share
how they've been impacted by what the company does. When
people see that, I mean, that is really really that
was really powerful idea as well from your book.

Speaker 4 (48:05):
Yeah, and clients love it. That's the thing is, clients
are like, oh, this is so cool, Like I'm a
case study. Right. I think Bill George was the former
CEO of Metronic. He literally at the Christmas party every
year would bring because again Metronic medical devices. He'd bring
some of the folks that were patients and use the
device on stage just to tell a quick story. And
everybody got to see, Oh my god. Every day when
I'm queueing this or doing that, it makes little Susie's heartbeat.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
You know what I mean, right, I know? And Bill
George is a love. He's been on my podcast as well.
He's a love. Okay, we've come to the end of
the show. Al and it happened so fast. Say, in
ditate seconds, what would you like to leave them with you?

Speaker 4 (48:40):
Neil, Well, I'm writing a bit about this in my
next book. As I mentioned it's how individuals can flourish,
and I think the number one thing is, you know,
first self realization, as we mentioned the self awareness, realizing
who you are, what you need, all that stuff. Then
you move into alignment right, making sure you're always operating
from that place as much as possible. You're filling your
own cup, listening to your intuition. All that stuff is foundation.

(49:04):
Then you move into actualization right, so as you grow
in life, you accumulate success, wealth, skills, et cetera. And
the fourth point is transcendence. You can actually pay those
things forward and help others. So that's really my focus
these days.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
I love that and you're coming back on my podcast.
Then you can run for me, but you can hide.
I'm pretty fast to Neil. Thank you so much for
being who you are, for putting this beautiful book in
the world, doing the work that you're doing, for coming
on working on purpose. A delight to know you and
share your work.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 3 (49:33):
Very welcome listeners and viewers. You are going to want
to know more about to Nail Miller, the work she
does as a management consultant or psychologists, and her latest book,
The Flourishing effects, and you can see her at two
different places, just two different websites. What is your personal site?
That's her name to Nail Miller dot com. Let me
spell that for.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
You T N I L.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
L Emiller dot com. And then also her site Experience
and Transformation dot com. Last week we missed in a
life show the show. Last week we were on are
with doctor Ross Blankenship, an organizational psychologist, executive coach, and
a lecturer of the University of Virginia. We talked about
his book Everyday Leadership, A Guide to Developing your Mindset
as a Leader. He shared his perspective on the basic

(50:15):
behavior as leaders are responsible for and how a leadership
mindset can be developed to be more effective. Next week,
we'll be on the air with Patricia Graborik talking about
her new book Leading for Wellness, How to create a
team culture where everyone thrives. See you there and remember,
work is one of the best adventures and means of
realizing our potential and making the impact we crave. It
can give us the opportunity to do business in a

(50:35):
way that betters the world. So let's work on purpose.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four C. Why Together, We'll create
a world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion
performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the
meaning and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work

(51:01):
on Purpose.