Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY
Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments
should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for
(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working on a Purpose program, which
has been brought to you with passion and price since
February of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week.
Great to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes.
If we haven't met before and you don't know me,
I'm an organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapist, speaker and author.
And my team and I Augusta now help companies to
enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high
(01:24):
performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose
for today's enlightened in dynamic world. And did you know
that inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers by a factor
of two point twenty five to one. In other words,
inspiration is good for the bottom line. You can learn
more about us and know we can work together at
Gusto dshnow dot com and my personal site at Lascortes
(01:44):
dot com. Today we have with us Rashad Tobakawala, who
has four decades of global and multi disciplinary experience in
driving personal, team and business growth. He most recently served
as the global strategist and Chief Growth Officer at the
one hundred thousand plus person and marketing and business Transformation
Publicist Group. He is the host of the What Next
(02:06):
podcast and publishes a thought letter called The Future Does
Not Fit Into the Containers of the Past, which is
read by thirty thousand doar every week. He is the
author of Restoring the Soul of Business, Staying Human in
the Age of Data, which helps people think, feel, and
see differently about how to grow their companies, their teams,
and themselves to remain relevant in the transformational time, and
(02:27):
also Rethinking Work, which helps people thrive amidst the seismic
changes that will occur at work due to a combination
of changing demographics, new mindsets, the rise of distributed work,
and the spreaday by eye, which is the focus of
our conversation today. He Jose is from Chicago, Rishat a
very hearty welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Thank you very much, thank you for having me on
your show.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I'm so glad that you said yes when I reached
out to you, because I got to read this amazing
book that you put out. I saw you. I forget
how I found you on Amazon, but I was, just
as I told you in our LinkedIn exchange, devoured your book.
It's just what the world in business needs today. Thank you, Rashad,
Thank you You're welcome. You're so welcome. Well, you, my
(03:09):
dear new friend. As a futurist, in forty years of
your own experience starting and building companies, have come to
understand what's the need, what's behind the need to rethink
how we lead and run businesses? And I want to
talk about just a few. I know we don't have
time to talk about all them, but just a few
of their driving forces behind the need for rethinking business
and leadership.
Speaker 5 (03:28):
Today's let's start there.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Absolutely well, there are five big forces. The first one
of societal change, which is aging and declining populations, many
generations that work with different mindsets. Maybe Loma is believing
in capitalism, gen Z not. There's obviously the rise of technology,
of which air happens to be one, which is also
going to basically change work more than we know it
(03:52):
and makes knowledge free to a certain extent. It is
the rise of marketplaces, and those marketplaces could be anything
from Amazon website services to Etsy to shopify that allows
people to access markets as well as make themselves available
to markets. There is the rise of the gig worker,
the side hustle. In the United States, one out of
(04:16):
every two people will be a side we'll get a
ten ninety nine this year, not just a W two
people who work. And finally, there's the long term impact
of COVID, which is in some part on where you work,
but more importantly why you work, and who you work
for and what you think about work. So those five forces,
(04:36):
which obviously are interconnected, are the five seismic changes changing work.
Speaker 5 (04:41):
Just a few to deal with.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
You know, I have a lot of empathy for the people,
the leaders that I work with you have to help support.
This is a hard time to be a leader. And
I think your book really beautifully, as I was telling
one my executive before we got on, really summarizes and
encapsulates just really everything that's there for for us.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
So let's talk next.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
If we can. You mentioned that they're among these societal shifts,
of course, which are not going away. I don't. I
personally find it really kind of amusing that people are
still saying things like, you know, when we go back
to the way things were, why would we want to
go back? Why would we want to be a graduate
from college and say, you know, second grade back in
elementary school was really good. I want to go back
(05:24):
to those times, right. I'm just amazed by that. So
let's situate next year some of the things that you
suggest that organizations reimagine that will help us help them
situate the needs and wants of today's workforce.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
Sure, so there are four. So one of the interesting
things which I find that people find about my book
that they like, which hopefully, as you have indicated you
have liked, is that it's very recent, balanced with facts,
and then says you know things you want to think about.
It isn't a screed that says there is a symbol
(06:00):
bullet answer you and I work too much in the
real world to believe that there's some silver bullet that
someone can find. So with that, what I basically sense
is that there are four things that any business of
insight should be looking at. The first one really is
to think about do they need a new type of employee.
So most companies today have three types of employees. Basically
(06:21):
a full time employee, a contract employee who basically appears
to be full time it works for another company really
and you just hire them. And then there's a freelance employee.
I believe it's time for another employee, which is a
fractionalized employee. So what is a fractionalized employee. They're an
employee of the firm with all the benefits that an
employee has. That in addition to base compensation if they're eligible,
(06:45):
they have both either equity or bonuses, and they have
one hundred percent healthcare, but they only work maybe sixty
or eighty percent of their time. This person is different
than the freelance because they have both health care and
they have benefits, if that makes sense, but different from
a full time employee than they only work sixty to
eighty percent. Why is that a good idea? The reason
(07:07):
it is a good idea is a it offers the
individual and the talent a lot more options than they
had before. A lot of people want to spend a
little less time working because they may need to spend
that time either looking after kids, aging parents, their own health,
or following some side passion. It is a good idea
(07:27):
for the company because eight can attract this type of talent.
But more importantly, in an AI age, I think most
companies are going to find that they need about fifteen
to twenty percent fewer employees to do the same amount
of work. And this is a fantastic way of actually
having a fifteen to twenty percent savings without having to
do any layoffs, without hurting your company, because in effect,
(07:49):
you turn around you ask everybody do you want to
work sixty eighty, one hundred percent? Some people will say hundred,
some will say sixty, some will say eighty. You may
end up with about eighty percent without having to do
any layoffs, and in effect you can then move up
and down based on demand and supply. So that's one
key thing. Second is how do you machines and human
(08:09):
beings co exist, which is how do you train? How
do you rethink your company for an age of AI
where knowledge is free. A third one is very importantly
to unbundle the office. So I truly do believe that
in many many companies, in many many industries, in person
interaction is important, which is human being connecting together. But
(08:32):
nobody said that that necessarily was ever done most meaningfully
in the office. In my career, when we needed to
do creative brainstorming, we'd go to offsites. But I wanted
to build relationships, I'd go to bars and restaurants. When
I wanted to learn, I would go to events. And
nobody goes around and bangs into people in a water cooler.
We basically you carry our own water bottels. And there's
(08:53):
a lot of research that says, unless somebody is twenty
five meters from me, you're not going to bang into
anybody in a large company on different floors. So, in effect,
rethinking the office and rethinking the question not how do
I get people back into the office, but how do
I maximize the benefits of in person interaction while allowing
as much flexibility that I possibly can and also eliminate
(09:16):
costs of real estate as much as I can. And
the last one, and this one is particularly fun, is
I've begun to believe that one of the reasons people
are not wanting to come back to the office may
not just be because it is a long commute, it's
a waste of time and a whole bunch of other things,
but they don't want to come back to the bosses.
(09:37):
That's one the key things in my book is what
I call about the fall of managers and the rise
of leaders, and managers and bosses tend to be people
who have zones of control, while leaders have zones of influence.
Boss is basically what all the people sitting in their
seats so they can conduct them. A leader is improvisational
(09:57):
like jazz, and I basically believe those four things. A
new type of employee figuring out how to basically have
the machine human coexistence, rethinking in person interactions to maximize
them with flexibility, and retraining leadership to actually lead versus
just be a boss are the four things every company
should be thinking about right away.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
Let me come around a couple of those things.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
One the first thing about this idea of a fractionalized employee,
I really like that concept for show. I haven't really
seen much of that as socially novel concept to me,
And one of the things I like about that is
it also allows more people in the full population to work,
giving people more access to the world of work and
being able to earn an income for themselves, which I
think is going to reduce the overall lift for us
(10:45):
to support everybody in the community. And then, of course,
going back to what you're also just saying there, that
flexibility piece, you know, offering different ways for people to
embrace and engage in the world of work versus what
we're seeing today these forced mandate you turn to office
the same hours, so that ability to be able to
(11:05):
recognize that the need for that flexibility. You're going to
get a much more engaged, motivated, committed person when you
offer that flexibility.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Absolutely. I think one of the key things is the
same companies who basically talk about agility, flexibility at personalization
show no agility, flexibility or personalization for people coming back
to the office, which means they're lying. That's all. It's
completely fake. And that's what I tell leaders, the fact
that you don't give personalization, agility, or flexibility to your talent,
(11:36):
and then you go around telling your customers you're an agile,
flexible and personalized company. How does that work? Please tell you, sir.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, speaking of that, Rasharda, the other thing that I
also quite enjoyed about your book is the idea of
really encouraging leaders and companies to embrace gigwork, side hustles
and passion projects so you can speak to why there's
a benefit for them to do so.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
So there are three benefits, So let me begin with
the benefit to the talent. To the talent, the side
gig its side hustle allows you to basically have your
cake and eat it too. To a great extent, I
had managed to attract and retain world class talent who
might have wanted to have a passion of starting a
gaming company. So I said, look, you can work here,
(12:19):
work with us on gaming practice, and start a gaming company.
That's one. The other is what it also basically does
is that side hustle or side gig brings skills and
credibility to our own clients. Look, this person is doing
this other thing so they get more credible, Which is one,
they can have their cake and eat it too. And
(12:39):
the third is they're maximizing their optionality, which is they
now have two revenue streams versus one revenue stream, which
also allows them to take a little bit more crap
at work because they have an outlier or something. Right,
So it's really good enough for the company. Why is
it good for the company? It's good for the company.
One because you're reducing your costs without losing your talent.
(13:02):
You still have your talent right. Second is, in most cases,
talent loves you even more because now they get to
have their kk need it too, so they're more likely
to be loyal. They're actually likely to work more than
the percentage that they said they were going to basically do.
Third is you begin to be a place where people
who have amazing talent come and work with you because
they say they can work with you and do what
(13:22):
they want to do. So your costs are better, you've
got more better people in your culture, and you can
attract more talent, So it's a win when and why
that's very important, especially in the US versus let's say,
Canada or other places, is it's also the only way
that people can get healthcare of a particular type, because,
(13:43):
unfortunately the US, outside of the Affordable Care Act, most
of your health is directly associated with having a job. Right.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
So one of the things that I got from one
of my previous guests that I really have not been
able to forget, which I want to have you speak
to next, is what she's put forward is that the
old way that we worked, where we required people to
be in the office certain hours, you know, do the
commune and everything else. What it does, really fundamentally, from
a humanistic dvantage point, is it reduces people's overall potential,
their ability to realize more of their potential. It squashes that.
(14:18):
And I think you do a really amazing job in
your book of describing just how COVID changed our minds,
and so can you see some of the ways that
it did.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
So it did. The biggest thing that it did was
basically it did four key things to change our mind.
The first one is what I basically call existential questions.
And existential questions is during COVID, and most of us
will still remember, we weren't sure whether we would live okay,
(14:47):
and we were seeing people who we knew or loved
ones being either very sick or sometimes passing away. So
you begin to ask a question, what am I here for?
What am I doing? How am I using my time? Right?
Am I doing meaningful stuff? So that was the first
big thing. That was the thing that I said, what
really changed the way people think about work, not just
(15:10):
where they work. That was the first thing. Second is
while people were doing that, they were beginning to realize
that since nobody was looking, they could now do these
other things that also fulfill them. Because all of us
are multitudes of personalities. We're not like bipolar or skidsphrantic.
It's just we have multiple personalities or multiple interests and passions,
(15:32):
and now we could feed all of those because we
had the time to do that and nobody was monitoring
and watching and looking, and we said, hey, this is
much more meaningful. The third is, hey, you know what,
I'm getting a lot done without somebody telling me what
to do and having a boss on my head right
and forth. When time became very important because we didn't
know how long we would live, we began to realize
(15:55):
we were wasting a lot of time moving our physical
body parts to a place to be the front of
a screen. And usually the technology and the office was
not as good as the technology at home. It wasn't
as comfortable, and it was loud and noisy because people
had removed real estate anyway. So you basically came in
and said, wait, that going back to twenty nineteen is
(16:18):
not going back to some Holcin days. It's going back
to the dark ages.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
Second grade.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Yeah, it's going back to the dark ages. And my
whole basic belief is why does anybody want to go
back to the dark ages?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
And then the other a couple of other things you
also included there too, is people began to recognize that
they were going to reject over work and burnout as
well as toxic work cultures.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
No thank you, no thank you, And what basically begins
to happen. Is what I always tell people is many
companies thought and tried to convince people that they had
a culture. Many people companies had is they had a cult.
An adult requires two things. It requires a compound like
(17:10):
Jones down, and it requires you to drink something all
the time, like a kool Aid. Now people have left
the compound because they're at home and they are not
being given the kool aid. So all of a sudden
they're opening their mind and saying, oh my god, I
was so unhappy. That was actually a cult. It was
(17:30):
a toxic place that some or the other I wasn't thinking.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
It's sort of like this very famous sick like sort
of a speech, which is, you know what is water?
Which is a fish? When they're in water, it's another fish?
What is water? Right? And sometimes you have to leave
to understand exactly where you were.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yes, And which is why when you and I go
into organizations, we can hold up that mirror a little
bit more easily than they.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
Can see themselves.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
That is exactly right.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
All right, let's grab our first break. I'm your host,
doctor Lee's Cortes. We've been on the air with Rashad
Talkbakawala a futurist and seasoned businessman who helps unleash the
superpowers of each individual talent by helping them see, think,
and feel differently so they can grow themselves, their team
and their businesses. We've been talking a bit about some
of the forces driving the great rethinking. After the break,
when I get into what work will become, We'll be
(18:24):
right back.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infuse cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more, or to
invite at least to speak to your organization, please visit
(19:01):
her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to
get your employees working on purpose. This is working on
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email
to Alise A Lisee at eliscortes dot com. Now back
(19:25):
to working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Thanks for sting with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I too,
am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize
their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders that
help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do
business that better is the world. I keep researching and
writing my own books, and one of my last ones
came out. It's called The Great Revitalization. How activating meaning
and purpose can radically in liven your business. And I
(19:54):
wrote it in some ways to do some of the
things that Rashad is doing to help leaders understand how
the world has, what does the workplace want and need
from them, and then offer twenty two best practices that
you can start to fold into your culture to help
create that. You can find my books on Amazon or
my personal site at least Cortes dot com if you
are just now joining us. My guest is Rashaw Tobakawala.
He's the author of Restoring the Soul of Business, Staying
(20:17):
Human in the Age of Data, which helps people to think, feel,
and see differently about how to grow their companies, their teams,
and themselves to remain relevant in transformational time. And the
book that we're talking about today rethinking work which helps
people thrive amidst the seismic changes that will occur at
work due to a combination of changing demographics, new mindsets,
and the rise of distributed work as well as the
(20:38):
spreader AI.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
So to kick this.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Part off here, this segment off for shab this is
about what work will become. You already situated for us
several of those things, including the fractionalized employees, the machine
human coexistence, the unbundling of the office. You did that
already for us, beautiful in the first segment. If we
can now, if we can start by talking about more
of what the office can and become. The future of
the office, you have at least I think six different
(21:03):
aspects or ideas in your book that really champion what
could look like that's much different.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
Yeah, So you know, one of the biggest things is
we should think about the office as being a place
where people can come to a interact with other people
because it's being programmed. So you actually have programming. So
(21:29):
when people come into the office, I always basically say,
what are they going to do here in the office
that's different than what they do at home? Are they
going to listen to somebody. Is there going to be
a training program, Are they going to actually have a
formal brainstorming? Are they going to go have lunches and
dinners together? So, you know, the whole idea is rethinking
about it and says, okay, how do I benefit in
(21:51):
person interaction. The other is, you know, in many cases,
if for global companies, there may be advanced technology at
the office so that you can better communicate and better
better connect with people in the company all over the world.
If but that is increasingly less and less likely because
technology is getting better at home. But that's you know,
(22:11):
sort of a second one. The third is for training
for education. So the idea really is to rethink it.
But in addition, don't think about where these people come
together just being necessarily the office. It could be an
off site, it could be a hotel. It could even
basically be using you know, university spaces during holidays, so
(22:32):
it's literally during summer moving people into a campus for
two three weeks where there's dormitories and everything else and
people get together. So the idea basically is rethinking what
do you want to do when people come together? And
it is all those things, but no longer necessarily thinking
about it in the current office, or reconfiguring and rethinking
(22:55):
the office, and also doing things like around events. So
for instance, if there's a great show that having things
built around the show and buying people tickets for the show,
it's those kinds of stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
That is radically different than hey, you know, in fact,
I just saw this on a on a chatboard recently
we shot. Somebody was asking about what are you doing
to re engage people? When ask them to do they're
still talking about parties and pizza and potlocks.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Yeah, And my whole thing is like listen, you know,
in fact, I'm going to put on LinkedIn something that
I found actually somewhere else. But which is what what
do companies think people want? So companies think what people
want is they basically want a big, nice, interesting office space,
(23:42):
they want free food, and they want some technology. Well,
what people actually want is meaningful work, leadership, autonomy, optionality,
good income. None of those are what they're doing when
they're basically my own stuff is you know, if you're
if you're providing people with free food and foodsball, then
(24:04):
why don't you basically go there, go and send them
to Dan and Basto Chuck E cheese, that's better to
do it.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
There completely with you. And this is so listeners and viewers,
you know, we're with you. We're arm in arm on this.
We just want to show you that there's such a
better way than what many people are probably thinking about today.
I definitely want to go into because of course, so
much in my world is also focused on developing managers
(24:29):
and leaders. And I really really like what you have
to say about the fallable managers and the rise of
new leaders. And you talk about five ways to become
a better manager, and I think that really bears These
are very different sorts of behaviors than people have been
probably taught or exposed to. If you could talk about those.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
Yeah, you know, I would say that, you know, some
of the big things, which like I'll sort of and
I will sort of pull it out so I could
give you the entire you know, sort of list without
sort of uh like sort of losing losing the flow.
But the thing that to me is one of the
(25:07):
most important things about it is just by basically thinking
what does a leader do?
Speaker 6 (25:13):
How does how does a leader spend their time? Versus
how does a manager spend their time. Does that make
sense absolutely? And so what tends to happen? And not
that leaders don't have to have some sort of management
like jobs or do some management, but a management a
manager spends a lot of their time overseeing, checking in, monitoring, allocating, delegating,
(25:40):
delegating right, while a leader tends to basically be much
more about creating, making, mentoring, guiding, inspiring and so the
five things that I basically sort of mentioned to be
a better manager is one is to basically think about
when you're talking to people abouth, nuance and personalization, understand
(26:03):
the person who is working with you and each one
has sort of a different personality and how do you
deal with them and how do you modify things.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Second, in many cases is get people to raise their
hand when they need your help. Was just constantly checking
in right. You don't have to monitor, you have to
be like a drone, like you know, hovering over somebody.
You can just basically say, hey, look, your is a
bad signal, and when you need me, press the button
right and then I will show up. The third we
(26:37):
underestimate how important communication is, which is continuously keeping people
apprized of what is going on. Because one of the
things I've basically now come to believe is, you know,
very much like insiens, they say, nature abores or vacuum.
When there is a vacuum of information, people make up
(26:58):
whatever they think should be there, and usually they make
up the most worst case scenario and the most scandalous outcome, right,
and so what tends to basically happen. It makes a
little bit of time if you actually tell people this.
The fourth which is the thing I've already mentioned, which
is please invest your time more in creating, building, coaching,
(27:19):
and servicing versus all this monitoring stuff. And finally, something
that is so so important, and this, by the way,
it can be done in any form, is feedback, because
we grow through feedback, both giving and receiving it. But
a lot of companies now have become very reticent about
(27:40):
giving feedback. They don't even call it feedback. They call
it envisioning sessions or something like that, whatever it is.
But if you're constantly giving feedback, so when you do
quote unquote a formal appraisal, it's nothing. The person has
already known everything and you're moving back and forth and
it's just like, okay, the appraisal really is much. Well,
what are some of what goes for next year or
(28:02):
the next six months, and what have we achieved? So
those five things, which is nuance communication changing to become
more of leading like things versus managing like things, providing
people with sort of feedback if that makes if that
makes sense, and then obviously encouraging employees to signal with
(28:22):
the bad signal when they need your help. Of five ways, I.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Want to echo a couple of things that you said
there were shout and what you also have in the book,
which is just tremendous solicits of viewers. You just you
got to get the book. There's just so much in
it that's going to help you. But on one thing
you talked about the constant communication, and you know this
idea of today people crave being being in connection, They
crave feeling connected to other people. So that connection communication
is so important. And one thing that you say very
(28:48):
overtly in your book, which I profoundly agree with this,
especially the younger generations resist being monitored. That's software monitoring
stuff that's going on.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
Oh that is terrible.
Speaker 5 (28:58):
That is it is.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
It should be outlawed. It really should be. And so
that's the first thing I just wanted to echo there,
and then the other thing I wanted to echo too,
on this notion of really, you know, how to give
you know, good feedback, the kind of feedback that grows people.
And I really like what you offer in your book
for shot, where you're talking about, you know, don't just
don't be harsh about it, said that wasn't good. It's
not what I want. It's hey, let's talk about what
(29:21):
really good performance looks like. You know that last project
that you just just set in that was that was
where it was at. That's great, So we can do
more of that over here. So now what you're doing
is you're teaching your people to develop greater, deeper skills.
You're showing them what's good and writing them already, and
you're helping to elevate their performance for the future. And
most managers are not definitely not doing that right.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
So the idea always basically is, you know, when you're
providing people with feedback, as you say, the key is
you can remind them that this time they were not
doing it to the potential that they'd done in the past. Time,
was there something that was preventing them from doing so?
Which is, hey, you you have done this at this
high level. Today you didn't do this high level. Is
(30:03):
there something going on personally? Nil? Right? Or is there
a reason? Or is there something that I have set
up an obstacle that didn't allow you to do it.
So the idea is you're basically not criticizing the person
or their potential. You're basically pointing out that this time
they weren't working at their level of excellence. And that's
so much easier. So the whole idea is, I'm you
(30:25):
work at a high standard. Today, you did not work
at that high standard. Can you explain to me was
it something I did? Was there an external situation or
just it didn't happen this time? That kind of things.
And the other one is to remind them that you
have gone through the same thing. So I would basically say, hey, listen,
I've gone through the same challenges and yes, how I
your storytelling? So this empathy storytelling giving people there that
(30:49):
you have a sense of belief. So I always say
you should leave a feedback meeting with clarity, energy, and belief.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
I like that to be inspired. Yeah, well, let's grab
our last break. I'm your host doctor Realise Cortes. We've
run on the air with Harbershaud Tobakawala, a futurist and
seasoned businessman who helps unleash the superpowers of individual talent
by helping them see, think, and feel differently so they
can grow individual, individually, as teams and as organizations. We've
(31:18):
been talking a bit this time about what the work
will become in the future. In the last segment, we're
talking about how to prepare for the future of work.
Speaker 5 (31:27):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Doctor Elise Courts has as a management consultant specializing in
meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps
companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop
purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to
invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her
(32:05):
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Elise A LISEE at Eliscortes dot com. Now back to
(32:29):
Working on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, if you're
just now joining us. My guest is Rashad to Bakawalah.
He's the author of Restoring the Soul of Business, Staying
Human in the Age of Data, which helps people to think, feel,
and see differently about how to grow their companies, their teams,
and themselves to remain relevant in the transformational time. In
his latest book, which we're talking about today, Rethinking Work,
(32:58):
which helps people thrive the seismic changes that will occur
at work due to combination of changing demographics, new mindsets,
and the rise of distributed work as well as the
spread of AI. So for this last segment here, Rashot,
I want to get as much as I can as
well out of you. This has already been nice and
dense and tight you situate, but you come back at
this at the last section of your book talking about
(33:18):
how you've situated these major seismic shifts here and so
now we want to talk about what organizations and leaders
can do to be able to create this future. And
one of the things I really appreciate that you say
is that many senior leaders are saying, well, the future
is too uncertain to make any change right now, and
you really push against that. In fact, several my other
(33:39):
guests have also said organizations that don't change are perfectly
right for disruption. So if you could say a few
things about how now, since we're talking about orchitecting the
future of work, what can leaders and organizations do.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Well. One of the biggest things to great extent, when
somebody basically says, you know, I cannot make any decisions
because the future is uncertain, I basically say, I just
want to let you know. You've just described the inherent
reality of life. Life is uncertain. So in effect, you're
basically saying you want certainty when life is not certain, Like,
(34:19):
how does that work? So what is you can't do that?
But interestingly, there are some things that are tending to
be certain, and those certainties make your current business model
uncertain and you're not willing to actually adjust to those certainties.
There are certain certainties. So my book basically puts forth
(34:39):
certain certainties which are quite shocking for a lot of
business people. So one is that increasingly in many many industries,
scale will not be an advantage. So many companies basically say,
you know, we've got scale of spending, scale of manufacturing,
scale of talent, and AI these new market at places
(35:02):
else basically is the technology that allows David to bring
down Goliath. Now there's obviously in some industries like semiconductor manufacturing, pharmaceuticals,
scale may matter, but not everywhere. That's number one, So okay,
I've built a business model where scale will be less important.
Second is a lot of people say I'm going to
(35:22):
use AI to make myself more efficient and more effective.
I said, that's very cool, but every company is going
to basically use AI to be more efficient and effective.
So you're not going to go running around saying you're
better than another company because you use electricity. You're not
going to say you're going to better the company because
you use AI. The biggest challenge of AI is not
how to take your current business model and make it
(35:44):
faster and cheaper, but to rethink your business. And the
big thing today is companies that rethink their business have
to recognize that their opportunities and threats come from outside
their category. Very much like the automobile companies saw the
biggest opportunity and threat emactly from Tesla and Uber and
not from each other. So the first thing to think
(36:05):
about is why does your firm exist? Why is it
designed like that when there is no scale advantages. The
other one to actually think about, which is even more
further like a front. The whole thing is why you
even organize the way you are and could it be
that in the future a majority of the work that
is done inside your organization is going to be done
(36:26):
outside your organization by people who aren't in your organization,
And you might say, what are you talking about, Well,
that's existing. It exists. For instance, in the world of entertainment,
very few people work at the studios, right they work
on the show, they work on the movie, they work
on the Broadway play or whatever. That is. So in
effect that your company is organized wrong. Scale may not
(36:49):
be the big issue. Those things are all quite certain
because of AI, because of distributed work, because of marketplaces.
At least get ready for those certainties if you think
you can't operate uncertainty, if that makes sense, and then
you have to retrain your people because everybody basically says
I want to transform my company and you and I
know that companies don't transform, people do, right, and where
(37:13):
are you helping them transform? So it's so obvious, so
a lot of people when they've read my book. So
you make it so obviously. You tell us exactly, what
are some of the things we should be thinking about
on what to do? I said, Yeah, which of these
makes sense for your category, your country? You should start
thinking about, right, and you come up with a solution.
I can't tell you what the solution is because I
don't know your company, your category, and your current life
(37:35):
cycle of your company, but clearly I can tell you
it's not the same as it used to be. And
by the way, going backwards, you're not going to find
an answer. The answer is you in you with your partners,
and in the future, your answer is not looking back.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Yeah. I want to echo to this notion of retraining
the workforce, and you also really talk about the importance
of embracing growth mindset. Completely agree in a line with that.
Everything you've got in your book, I can't argue with
anything but this notion.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
How many organizations push against investing in developing their people.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Yes, they do. And one of the things I've always
basically said is if you want to transform your company,
And because once upon a time I had a big job,
and with my teams and with my CEO and board,
we did transform a company. And what did we learn.
What we learned the hard way was that there are
six things that make transformation happen, and most companies don't
(38:33):
even get the first three right, which are difficult in themselves,
which is coming up with a strategy, then figuring out
what gaps do you have to strategy I call future
competitive advantage? Then what gaps do you have? And that
can be either you hire people or do M and A,
and then often you do a reorganization. Those are hard
to do. And let's say you get those three done.
What we learn the hard way is that started off, four, five,
(38:57):
and six are all about people. People don't fit in spreadsheets.
People are messy, right, So I always basically say, you
know very much like it. Supposedly it was Michael Tyson,
but I think with Joe Lewis is said everybody's got
a plan till they get punched in the face. I said,
every leadership team, after they have their Excel spreadsheet and
their board meetings, gets punched in the face by something
(39:17):
called people. Everybody in their organization basically says, what's wrong
with you? And they ask the following three questions, which
nobody answers. Why is this good for me? I understand
it's good for the company. It's good for you, big hotshots.
Why is it good for me? Right, nobody's answering that.
The next question is, can you tell me how my
incentives will change? If you want me to do this
(39:39):
new behavior, how will that impact my salary? And if
you're basically continue to promote people who are doing the
old stuff and telling me to do the new stuff,
I'll do the old stuff right. And finally, okay, you
want me to go in this new direction, maybe because
I will grow and you're changing my incentives. That's interesting.
Now explain to me how I'm going to learn these
new skill sets. Are you going to give me tuition?
(40:00):
Are you going to give me resources? Are you going
to give me time to self learn? Where is that? Right?
And So, basically, a company that wants to get to
the future and sees investment in their talent as an
expense is lost at sea because as I always tell
people in the agency business, they would say, our assets
(40:21):
go up and down the elevator. Okay, And I said,
that's true, but you don't treat them like your assets
are going up and down the elevator, because if your
assets were going up and down your elevator, you would
invest in your assets. I believe you are treating them
as an expense, and your expense is going up and
down the elevator, and therefore you think any investment in
(40:42):
your expense is another expense, while an investment in an
asset grows the asset. And then of a sudden everybody
keeps quiet and says, oh, what do we do? I said,
we'll invest in training.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
You know, I have had a privilege of working with
a leader where I've we've followed him I don't know,
four different places. The very first thing he does when
it comes in is he invests in training. The very
first thing he does is he comes and he lifts
up the team. It's the first thing he does. So
I want to just echo that. Okay, Now I want
to talk about you. You put forth these ideas, this
idea of how to redesign structures, and you talk about
(41:14):
three transformations and the first one that I found so
so intreatuing. Again, I never heard this before. Is you
talk about moving from legacy structures to roots and wings design.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Yeah. Yeah, So one of the things is the following,
which is I do believe and you know as someone
who worked in the same company, that I believe roots
are very important because roots of are the history of
a company offered. It's the culture, the story, the founder's beliefs,
all those are important. But what happens is if you
(41:44):
just hang out to your roots to become a stump,
because you need to grow. I need to grow in
the where the future is so very much like the
you know, the branches, right, the wings of the branches
of a tree, right, basic find a way towards light,
(42:04):
because that's what they're trying to do. They're phototropic, so
the roots provide them with some water, but they grow
looking for lights and then that light feeds the roots.
And you need the root and wing design, which means
you need both a focus and where you came from,
but also very importantly where you're going. And if you
(42:25):
have only roots, you become a stump, and if it
only wings, you become like we work, you get blown
away because you don't have any of the discipline and
the brand and the financial wherewith all which you also need,
you just can't be like airy fairy. But on the
other hand, you can't be like sitting down and looking
at your belly button, which is your best So you
have to do the roots and wings. So that's you know,
(42:46):
one of those things. And have this other thing about
jazz versus you know, classical music, yes, and the other one.
And the other one is basically thinking about running schizophrenic models,
which is one focused on today and one focused on tomorrow,
but letting the tomorrow really compete and focus on tomorrow
versus having to carry a lot of today.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
M so good, so much good stuff for Sean. Okay,
so now we're getting close to the in here already.
You have a whole chapter on revisioning the work rippled world,
if you will, and so you know, you address what
will make future companies great. So if you can say
just a little bit about what you're kind of getting
at in that chapter.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
So if the future will probably so, I'm increasingly beginning
and I did have this line in my book, but
as I've been thinking about it, I believe that in
the future, the book says, is there will be there'll
be fewer companies there will be companies. Most companies will
have fewer employees than they have today, and there'll be
(43:50):
very few, very large companies, but there will be. But
there will actually be more work and more employment in
the future than today because they will be attually more companies,
and the companies will be smaller, but there'll be many.
So I call it the whale and blanked in model.
There will be some whales and they'll be planked, and
there'll be the occasional squid and shock in between, but
(44:11):
it's a whale and blanketed model. And in that particular model,
you know, a lot of what talent and management are
going to have to do is they're going to basically
have to run companies in a way that is built
a on a growth mindset, which is how do we
actually continue to basically sort of learn. They're going to
have to find ways to basically embrace technology and talent
(44:32):
in very interesting, you know sort of ways. They're going
to have to be very good inspirational storytellers because you're
going to have to pay into vision for the future
and you're going to have to get people there.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Yeah, that's one of the many things that I, of
course I gravitated to in your book is how you
describe how managers and leaders must evolve. And of course
you do talk about the importance of in terms of
the leader is to prioritize inspiration, and you talk about
how many many leaders are very very very strongly astute
(45:07):
intellectually but incredibly flat emotionally. You talk about the need
for faster, continuous learning, right and then also connecting the dots,
making sure that you can see how all the things
fit together, your synergies, your ecosystems. And then I also
can't help but you know, illustrate this idea that you
put forth of the need to learn how to communicate clearly,
eloquently and motivationally. You just sort of mentioned that the
(45:29):
storyteller piece of that. That's the reason, of course I
focus on that is because that's the world that I
also help organizations with too. And it was so heartening
to hear you say that, like, oh, yes, this is
it's just not me who believes this.
Speaker 4 (45:42):
There's this, it's it's it's critically important. As I tell
people again and again, there are three things that people forget.
One is, you know, Joan Didion have this great line,
which is she was the famous essays which as we
tell ourselves stories in order to live. Okay, and in
many ways, all technology is really about enhancing storytelling. And
(46:05):
we're living in this ai another age. So when we
had fire, in addition to having warmth and food that
we could eat, it also let people gather around and
tell stories to each other. When you had the veal,
you can visit other places. That's why most stories now
start with someone goes on a journey or a stranger
comes to town, right, and so there is a direction
(46:27):
between advances in technology and storytelling.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
How and terribly enlightening this suspense such a great conversation.
I have two last questions for you, both kind of fast.
One is, since you've written the book, of course, we
all know that takes a long time to write a book.
Has there been any other thoughts that you've come to
since you've wrote You've written that book that you want
to share. And then I'm going to ask you just
to close the conversation.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
Sure, So there's one analogy that I've come up with
a line, which is since I've written the book, which
is in the future, there'll be far fewer jobs than
there are today, but there'll be much more work to
be done, okay, And the best way to describe it
is that music is the best analogy that I give.
(47:12):
In the past, the way you if you wanted to
listen to music, you had to go where Mozart was
playing the music right right, Then you have the gramophone record,
but you have to afford it. Then you have the
sody workmen you can walk around. Today we listen to
music which is completely up in the cloud, disconnected from
any physical device, disconnected from the song next to it,
(47:34):
which the person who made the music might I've wanted
you to. And how do we listen to music. We
listen to music through playlists based on what we need
to get done. You want to run, you have this playlist.
You want to be calm, you have this playlist which
is either algorithmically created or you hand curate. Doesn't make sense.
So we're living in a world where there is going
(47:55):
to be far more music than there is today, right,
far more musicians than there is in the past, but
far less of a music industry, and far less of
CDs and LPs and shops and all of those other
kinds of things. And that's where the future of work
is going fewer jobs, more work to be done.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
That is a powerful way to finish the conversation. Anything
else you want to say in closing see in the
next thirty seconds.
Speaker 4 (48:21):
Absolutely not accepting, but thank you very much for the
opportunity to be on your show and hope your guests enjoy.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
I learned so much from you, Rashad. You have elevated
my heart, my mind, everything, and I really really appreciate
you coming on working and purpose, sharing your thoughts and
what you've learned.
Speaker 5 (48:36):
Over the last forty some years.
Speaker 4 (48:38):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Listeners in viewers, you are going to want to learn
more about Rashad Tobakawaala the work he does advising leaders
and companies on reinventing themselves and growing in his books,
including Rethinking Work. You can start by going to one
of his websites, it's Rethinkingwork dot. IOW see you next
week for another nourishing and in elevating conversation. And remember,
work is one of the best events and means of
(49:00):
realizing our potential and making the impact we crave and
can give us the opportunity to business in a way that.
Speaker 5 (49:05):
Betters the world. So let's work on purpose.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program, be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's Work on Purpose.