March 18, 2025 • 51 mins
Discover how to shift from an Extinguisher to a Generator leader, transforming workplace wellness and boosting employee satisfaction, commitment, and productivity. Explore how this enlightened approach not only enhances your bottom line but also extends wellness benefits beyond your team, enriching communities. Join us as Katina Sawyer, PhD shares insights on fostering a culture where everyone thrives and leaving a lasting leadership legacy. Ready to empower your team to thrive as a Generator?
Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/working-on-purpose--2643411/support.
Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/working-on-purpose--2643411/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
those of W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's employees are affiliates.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY
Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments
should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working and Purpose program, which has
been brought to with passion and pride since February of
twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week. Great to
have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. If we
have not met before and you don't know me, I'm
an organizational psychologist to management consultant, local therapists, speaker and author.
My team and I at Gusto Now help companies to
enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high
performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose.
(01:28):
And did you know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied
peers by a factor of two point twenty five to one.
In other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line.
You can learn more about us on how we can
work together at gustodashnow dot com or my personal site
at Lascortes dot com. Before we get into today's program,
I am thrilled to announce the registration is open for
a fabulous new conference for women for which I'll serve
(01:49):
as the MC. It's called Thrive in twenty five and
is a jam packed few days in Chicago June twenty
fifth through twenty eight, twenty twenty five, designed to develop
women as whole selves from both during your mindset to
your financial acumen, to leadership, to incorporating nature and art
into your life to raise consciousness, and much more. Visit
thrive in twenty five dot com for information and to register.
(02:11):
Use my promo code Gusto all caps to gain access
to the free books and programs. I'll be gifting registrants
as well. See you there now getting in today's program
we have with us today. Katina Sawyer a PhD and
Associate Professor of Management and Organization in the Ellers College
of Management at the University of Arizona. She's also co
founder of Worker Being, co host of the Thriving at
(02:33):
Work podcast, and co author of Leading for Wellness, How
to create a team culture where everyone thrives, which will
be diving into today. Specifically, we'll be discussing workplace wellness,
why it's important, and what's in it for you as
a leader to improve it, and then discuss several key
behaviors leaders can develop to cultivate wellness in their organizations.
She knows today from Tucson, Arizona. Doctor Sooya a hearty
(02:56):
welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Me too, and I just love celebrating, you know, really
beautiful things that get put into the world, like this
thing right here, right and as you know, of course
I read it cover to cover, can quite sepers but
you're so welcome. You're so welcome. And of course, as
I mentioned in our correspondence, you know, there's a lot
of things that you're up to in your business, your podcast,
your book that aligns a lot with my world. So
that's going to be a fun conversation. Okay, So the
(03:24):
first thing I want to do is I want to
step into just let's talk about definitions and situating what
we're talking about here. So let's talk about what just
wellness means first.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Yeah, So actually this was something we were interested in
when we started writing the book. While wellness has some
academic definitions, and actually those take varied forms, so there's
not a lot of agreement in the scientific literature of
what wellness means either. We feel like when companies say
wellness and when employees say wellness, they're not always speaking
(03:55):
the same language. And so one of the things that
we initially wanted to do in our research for the
book was really tacked down what does wellness mean to
employees when they say they want companies to support their wellness,
And what we found is that it had four components,
a physical component, an emotional component, a mental health component,
and a work life balance component. And those seem to
(04:18):
be the things that employees are looking for when they're
saying they want organizations to support their wellness.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
M beautiful, so, Crisp. The other thing that was kind
of interesting about that is when it comes to this
idea of wellness. I mean I remember during the pandemic, Katina,
when we started talking about well being as an important
thing that the c suitet leaders were focused on, and
I thought, oh, this is good. We haven't been talking
about this for quite someever, have we. Even the Gallup
(04:44):
organization went from engagement to a well being. Yeah, that
was a really good thing. And then you know, something happened.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
So I'm so happy to see that you are advancing
this initiative and you've got resources, you're putting this out
into the world because I think it's sorely needed and important,
and I think it got sort of sent to the
back seat again.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
Yeah, I think specifically, certain components of wellness got sent
to the back seat at the time of the pandemic,
people were emotionally suffering quite a lot and having a
lot of authentic and vulnerable conversations.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And then it was kind of like companies wanted to.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
Put Pandora back in the box, you know, like we're
just going to forget that happen and move forward and
readopt our old norms.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
And that doesn't work.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Like, once the cats out of that bag, it's really
hard to go backwards, right. And So while we still
see companies spending money on workplace wellness initiatives and doing
step challenges and things like that, which aren't bad in
and of themselves, certain components, the tougher components, the components
that are actually about changing the norms of our workplace
seem to have been pushed back to the back burner,
(05:48):
as you're suggesting.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Which is really this conversation is really exciting for me, Katina,
because I really am I'm a future of work sort
of researcher. I'm a social scientist here about work being
a place where people can see it as a experience,
as a playground and not a solow crushing place that
they have to go to with their paycheck. So and
I do I have seen that gap between how the
(06:11):
workforce has evolved, think in part in part because of
what's been catalyzed in the pandemic. But yet, you know,
unfortunately our companies and much of our leadership is still
you know, there's a gap between those two domains.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
Yeah, I think we are really held onto these sticky
norms that we talk about in the book called ideal
worker norms, and those norms were actually derived back in
time when employees had more focused spheres between work and
life that they were dedicated towards. And of course we've
(06:44):
made great progress in having more flexibility and letting people
choose which spheres they're more attracted to. Do they want
to be more focused on life or work or work
or life, right, But at the time that these ideal
worker norms came about, it was more traditional, you know,
a normative couple split, where a husband would go into
the workforce and a wife would stay home. And the
assumption with sort of that work can be number one
(07:07):
at all times and other things aren't interrupting. And while
we've evolved somewhat on that front, the world has changed
much faster than our norms have, and so we're trying
to cling on to this old norm of what it
means to be a leader and what it means to
be a good employee that just doesn't match the realities
of the lives that employees live.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Completely agree, one hundred percent. So you know, there is
a lot of research out there. Your research is gold,
and there's just so much out there that speaks, you know,
to what needs to happen. So why aren't leaders focusing
on wellness? And if they do, how are they, as
you like to say, treating it.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Yeah, so I think that leaders are sort of taking
cues from what their organizations ask them to prioritize. And
while workplaces have been investing more time and energy and
attention into employee health and wellbeing, it's not what they
ask their leaders to focus on. They ask their leaders
to focus on results and the bottom line and making
(08:05):
sure that you know, they're delivering on expectations. And because
they're not asking leaders to see and framing these wellness
initiatives or wellness focuses in as part of what does
help drive those results, leaders view them as being at
odds and so they think, well, either I can make
(08:26):
people happy and healthy, or I can drive results.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
But when push comes to shove.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
I'm going to just try to be results focused, which
often means, you know, overwork making people put the pedals
to the medal, deprioritizing their lives, which we all know
as a recipe for burnout and a lower level of
productivity in the long term. But what they're trying to
do is prioritize what they hear their workplace is saying.
And workplaces are not often putting these two things in
conversation with one another.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
That's very chris So that brings us to then what
can we actually do as leaders just start to change
the tide of the ship. And I love that in
all the search that you do, and I love research too.
This is great. You found at least two kinds of leaders,
and I don't know if they were more in your research,
but I'm interested certainly what you talk about in the book,
the generators and the extinguishers. So let's let our listeners
(09:11):
and viewers understand what are those two leaders like?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Sure?
Speaker 5 (09:14):
Yeah, So in the research we did for the book,
we asked people to nominate and discuss with us leaders
they had who they felt were exemplary at supporting their wellness,
and we did dozens of in depth interviews and then
hundreds of people filled out surveys afterwards to sort of
verify our findings to try to understand who those people
were and what they were doing, and we came up
(09:35):
with the term generator because the leaders who we heard
about who were exemplary at doing this tended to be
leaders who really amplified the energy on their team, made
people feel extra engaged at work, made people feel like
their health was better than ever physical health, mental health.
So not only were they thriving in their workplaces, they
were also feeling like their lives were improving and that
(09:57):
they were having a great level of work life balance
that they act actually we're reaching a balance that was
appropriate for them, that they felt in balance, and so
all of those things led us to name these leaders
who we are providing a roadmap in our book for
how to become more like generators.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
The interesting thing.
Speaker 5 (10:14):
About the process of doing the interviews and surveys for
this book was that while we were asking people to
really focus on we don't want to know what not
to do, because the presence of good leadership isn't just
the absence of bad leadership.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So we don't want this book to be a bunch
of like don't, don't, don't, don't, don't do this right.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
We want it to be what can you do to
get yourself proactively great at this? And what we found
in the interviews was that it was often challenging to
keep people on track from talking about foils to this. So,
you know, we'd hear a lot of let me tell
you about this great leader that I had, this is
what this person did in comparison to this horrible person
(10:52):
that I had, And then they would go on and
talk about and tell stories about.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
These other folks.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
And what we started to realize was that the natural
emergence of these stories about extinguishers, which we ended up
calling them in the book, the extinguishers are really people
who suck energy and life out of a team and
out of their employees. And we realized that one of
the reasons these were organically occurring stories about these folks
(11:17):
were organically occurring was because people really view the generators
in opposition to or they were highlighting a useful distinction
for us that we actually found helpful in conveying these
concepts in our book, which is it's not just about
avoiding being an extinguisher, which you also need to learn.
It's about getting to being a generator, but you kind
(11:37):
of need to understand the behaviors of both to get
yourself to that place.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
Gorgeous, so well said. You know, when I was doing
my meeting and work and identity research for my PhD,
I started to recognize as I was asking people about
their identities and I forget how it came up, but
who people that they'd learned things from. I discovered what
concept that I began to call the anti role model.
People would talk about, you know, who they did not
(12:01):
want to be, Like, thanks very much for showing me
who I don't want to be. Yeah, so listeners and viewers,
let's talk. Let's just distinguishing me from my vantage point
that the anti role model would be the extinguisher.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Correct, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
And I love that term anti role model because you
can and these folks did. Who we talked to learned
a lot from the people who they had negative experiences with.
But it was a painful process, right, So so learning
was happening, but also some strife.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Yeah for sure. Okay, since now we're now getting into
the leader leadership and leader realm, here I think it
makes a ton of sense, especially for people that are
thinking this is really soft and squishy and you know,
not a lot of substance here. Let's talk about the
workplace wellness matters, how it actually matters. I know you've
got at least four perspectives in the book, but let's
let's hit those next.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, so we view workplace wellness as well.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
You know, obviously we wrote this book so we feel
really confident that workplace wellness is an important top to
focus on.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
But we also think about this not.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Just from the perspective of individual employees, which is one
level which we've already talked about a little bit. People
get more satisfied, they feel more engaged, they are more committed,
so the quality of their.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Experience at work improves, right.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
But there's also benefits in it for the leader themselves,
and I think that that's something that often gets overlooked.
We heard not only that the employees were feeling better,
but also that leaders who lead this way actually have
better experiences in their work lives and tend to leave
behind better legacies that they can be more proud of.
They also have teams that are willing to kind of
(13:41):
stick with them stand by them, they have stronger relationships
with them, and as human beings, we want to have
strong relationships with people across domains, whether that's work or
in our personal lives. So the leaders actually end up
having a better time. And then the last two have
to do with organizational and societal implicationations.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
So when individuals and leaders.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Are thriving and having better experiences and stronger relationships and
feeling more productive and committed, that rises the tide of
the organization. The organization overall becomes more productive, bottom line
goes up. They also become a better place to work,
so easier to recruit and retain talent. But word of
mouth goes a long way. People speak more positively, that
(14:23):
net promoter score that folks sometimes talk about, So your organization.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Looks better, feels better, does better.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
And the last piece, which is really what got Patricia
and I into doing industrial organizational psychology to begin with,
is that businesses can have a huge impact on society.
And when we think about the responsibility that organizations have
to produce healthy, whole citizens who have energy to give
(14:51):
back to their communities and their families and their friends,
that's something that can boost an entire area, an entire region,
right when you have good employers in that area. Because
if you're spitting out a bunch of people who are
burn out and irritated and frustrated and just want to
roll up in a ball and go to bed at
the end of the day, versus people who want to
get out of their workplace and have a great meal
(15:12):
with family and friends and go coach their kids.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Sports team or whatever the case may be. That improves
whole communities.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
And that's what we really think is great about unlocking
these secrets is that as a leader, you can see
the ripple effects down, but you can also see the
ripple effects out and up.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
I'm really aligned with that, Katina. You know, I'm a
conscious capitalist, and my business books are certainly grounded in
conscious capitalism. And even if we just forget about all
the amazing bottom line results that you're going to get
by focusing on this and you start to recognize that
business can truly be a force for good in the world,
it's so inspiring. And what we also know, Katina, is
those kinds of organizations that behave that way, that perform
(15:52):
in that way, tend to attract a lot more investors
and I'm more interested. And then, of course, you know, employees,
as you were saying before, opt into that with their feet,
and consumers opt in with their wallets. So yeah, there's
a lot of reason to be able to start to
incorporate this kind of thinking into the way that you
operate as a business. Totally, speaking of business, I got
(16:12):
to ask you about yours and if you've got to
start with why you named it worker being, it's so fantastic.
So tell us about worker being how it came to
be in what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
So, Patricia and I are friends from graduate school. We
met while we were doing our PhDs in industrial organizational psychology,
and we both studied sort.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Of similar things.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
That had to do with what helps employees and workplaces
to thrive. She studied more emotions at work and the
expression of emotions at work. I studied more on the
diversity and inclusion side of things, but we were both
interested in the same end goal. We stayed in touch
as friends after graduation, close touch, and I went into
academia and she went into practice, and we ended up
(16:55):
at a friend's wedding and after a couple of glasses
of wine, we were talking about some of the things
that were kind of frustrating us about what we were
hearing from students and clients, and one of those things
was that we felt like there wasn't a lot of
translation of the science of workplace wellness into the actual workplace, right,
(17:18):
And so we knew there was all this great research
out there that we had learned in graduate school, but
we were still noticing that our students and our clients
were asking us very basic questions for which there was
like decades of research on to answer those questions. And
that was making us realize that this information must not
be very accessible to the average employee.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So we started thinking about why that was.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
And one of the main reasons is because, well, first
of all, you need training to decipher these academic articles
where a lot of this research sits. And second, they're
behind a paywall, and so if your organization doesn't have
access to these things, which most don't, it's really challenging
to get your hands on that. So you're always reading
a synthesis or other people's take on the research as
opposed to the source, and that can sort of muddy
(18:00):
the waters, right. So our initial idea with worker being
was let's start a blog where we take different topics
that we know the research on and we make them
very accessible and we link to other places that are
not behind a paywall where people might be able to
actually access some of this data and start spreading the
word that way. And once people caught onto the blog,
(18:22):
they suggested that maybe we start a podcast, because people
don't always like to read, they also like to listen,
so we did that, and then as we were doing
those two things, we noticed that people kept asking us
a lot for actions. So, yeah, I really believe in
the power of workplace wellness and I like what you
both doing.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm a leader. Give me a Roadmack, give me an
action plan.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
And when we went to the literature to look for that,
that was one of the first times we got kind
of stumped. There wasn't really anything out there that provided that.
So we decided at that point to pivot and do
some of our own original research, which is what produced
the book, and to round out the end or why
do we call it worker being?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
We think the idea of a worker.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Bee is a you know, a well known concept that
you're sort of just this, you know, put your head down,
cog and a wheel, and we want people to shift
their focus away from employees being worker bees to thinking
about their well being.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
So worker being was born gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
I love it. Okay, And on that note, let's let's
let's grab our first break. I'm your host, doctor Earlei Scrtesk.
We're on the air with doctor Katina Sawyer and Associate
Professor of Management and Organization Organizations in the other College
of Management at the University of Arizona, also co founder
of Worker Being, the co host of the Thriving at
Work podcast. We've been talking about what is well placed
(19:40):
workplace wellness, why it's important, and why should care about it.
After the break, we're going to get into teaching you
about some of these generator behaviors leaders can develop an
embrace to to create that kind of a workplace for
your organization. We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning imfuse cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization. Please visit her
(20:30):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Alise A Lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to
(20:54):
working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Thanks for saying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I too,
am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize
their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders that
help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do
business that betters the world. I continue to research and
write my own books. So my last one came out
in twenty twenty three. It's called The Great Revitalization, How
activating meaning and purpose can radically in liven your business.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And I wrote it to.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Help leaders understand what we've been talking about in this program,
how the world the workforce has changed, and what do
you need to do as an organization in your culture
to address that to provide that. So then I provide
you twenty two best practices to equip you to put
that into your culture so that they will stay with
you and actually thrive. You can find my books on
Amazon or on my personal site at least Coortes dot
(21:45):
com if you are just now joining us. My guest
is doctor Katina Sawyer, the co author of Leading for Wellness,
How to Create a Team culture where everyone Thrives. So
now let's get through as many as we can in
the time that we have here. I want to talk
about these beautiful generator behaviors that leaders can develop. So
one of the things that we do in this program
is we educate and we also inspire, So I always
(22:07):
want people to leave the show with actionable things they
can start to do and fold into their practice. So
let's talk about as many of these as we can.
So I'll start with the first one, which of course
I can't resist. You say that generator behaviors that show
that people that they're that humans. Leaders are actually human
beings and not superhumans. So therefore that requires that they
(22:28):
must fire their work self.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yeah, we really couch this.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
Going back to that concept of ideal worker norms, so
many of us take on work personas that we've adapted
and adopted from people we've seen you mentioned, you know,
role models, anti role models.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Who do you want to be like? Who do you
not want to be like?
Speaker 5 (22:50):
However, often the things that we've sort of embodied are subconscious.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
We might be promoting norms that we haven't even.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Thought through, and we might be setting a tone that
we're not even consciously aware of, or that we haven't
selected ourselves. We sort of passed down the behaviors that
we see from other people, we don't often think about
how much they're really us. And so the idea of
firing your work self is really taking some contemplative time
to think about who you are and how you show
(23:20):
up at work and whether that's genuinely and authentically you,
or whether that's a set of norms and behaviors that
you've picked up along the way that don't really really
reflect how you want to lead. And so when we
say fire your work self, we mean really thinking hard
about who your work self is, whether that aligns with
your true self, and firing the parts that are not
(23:42):
authentic to you, and beginning to lead from a place
of centeredness around your individuality totally.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
And for that, this next one I think is probably
going to make a few people cringe just a little bit,
and yet it's so so so important, and that's the
idea of embracing your struggle.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yes, yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
We got this idea from the participants in our study,
but also an anecdote from my personal life. An academic
who I admire so so much told me about a
practice that she does called an anti resume, which is
basically putting all the things she's very decorated many accolades,
(24:22):
and her students were saying, you know, I just don't
know how I can be you like you win at everything.
You're just successful all the time. And she really took
that to heart and thought, you know what, I'm going
to make a list of all the things I've failed at.
Every grant I applied for that I didn't get, every
class I taught where my ratings weren't great, every journal
article that I submitted that got rejected, and I'm going
to give that to my students along with my resume.
(24:44):
And really that line of thinking really has always resonated
with me from early in my career that we don't
see a lot of these struggle statements from people who
have been successful were in leadership roles, and so people
just assume that they're not that they're not struggling, that
things just come to them, that they don't have any
worries or fears. And what we have found out in
(25:06):
this idea that people don't want superhero leaders is that
when you share your struggles, it actually creates stronger and
more authentic bonds with other people around you because they're
struggling with things too, and instead of sort of highlighting
that there's something wrong with you, you're actually highlighting that
there's a commonality between you and the people who you're leading.
So you're thinking you're pointing out something negative about yourself,
(25:28):
Really what you're showing is that you all share in
the fact that you're not perfect, and that creates really strong,
authentic bonds. But it also motivates people to think that
they can also be leaders, because if you think that
leaders have to be perfect and you know that you're
not perfect, you may not try to be a leader
because you don't see that as a possible outcome for you.
So not only is it helpful for building these relationships,
(25:51):
but it's also helpful for making sure that the people
who you're trying to cultivate and mentor actually see leadership
as a viable option for them.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
I love that. And also, in addition, that occurs to
me that that practice of showing your struggles and what
you've dealt with and how you've grown through them, what
that does is it creates a learning culture. Right, we learn,
we grow here, That's how we do here. And I
really like that I have a woman and that she's
a leader that I've been coaching for years as within
(26:19):
the organization that I work with, and she has this
thing where she this is related to both the first
two behaviors. She says, she's developed this pattern of saying
this is me being vulnerable, and then she goes on
to say something that she's struggling with. It works beautiful
because as soon as she says that, one, people are
leaning in and listening yes, and two she's just opened
this beautiful space between them. So it's kind of a
(26:41):
combination the first to the first two generator behaviors. But
I love that in that beautiful And then you know,
having struggle statements. I know in the book you talk
about developing actual struggle statements that show others that you
have weaknesses at work. Too, But I think that is
that just I think there's so much there because people
look at your like, wow, they're the big VP or
they're the CEO whatever, and you know, but they didn't
(27:03):
strip that way right exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Some of the best conversations that I've seen are panels
that I've seen with very senior people in organizations, are
panels where they're really honest about the sacrifices and struggles
that they've had. I saw a panel early on in
my career where someone asked the question of you know,
what do you struggle with most? And I watched three
executives in a row say something to the effect of,
you know, I just think I'm the type of person
(27:27):
who has made for this sort of thing. Had just deflected,
didn't want to say any struggle. And finally there was
a woman at the end of the panel and she said,
I'll tell you exactly what I've struggled with. I've struggled
with a lot named a bunch of struggles. And you
could feel the whole audience just like a sigh of relief.
And the questions that got asked after that, the questions
that she got from the audience and the q and
(27:48):
A were very different from the questions that the other
people got because people are like, Okay, this is an
opportunity for me to hear real information as opposed to
like a canned talk track that I think sometimes we
develop as leaders to be teflon.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so next behavior for generators that we
want to develop ladies and gentlemen setting the right tone.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
So we are taught and you know, I'm guilty of
this too in my own career.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Matricia and I have talked about this.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
We're taught that the measure of productivity and performance and
success is how much time you spend working, and that's
sort of beaten into us from an early age that
time matters. So we see all these time based behaviors,
people sending emails extremely early, extremely late. I had a
friend who worked for a company where they installed nat
(28:36):
pods as part of a wellness initiative, and people used
it to sleep at work to show that, you know,
they were actually never leaving, right. So so there are
you know, these signals that people try to send that
they're putting in the most time. And what these leaders
do is they understand that time is not really the
most important metric. The most important metric is not how
(28:56):
long you're doing something for, but how well you're doing something.
So they focus a lot more on the quality of
experience that employees they're having, which produces a higher quality
level of work. So setting a positive team tone, recognizing
employees for the work that they do, making sure that
people have appropriate levels of balance. These are all things
(29:16):
that come back to you and actually end up saving
the team time. So many leaders tell us that they
don't have time to think about the tone because they're
always putting out fires and things are always going wrong. Well,
when you set a good tone, the people on the
team don't feel like they constantly have to come to
you to solve all their problems. They help each other
solve problems, the environment becomes more collaborative, the product quality
(29:39):
goes up. Right, So all of these things are related,
and the mindset shift away from time to tone is
something that we heard over and over again.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
That these leaders are.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Doing really well and then they have more time to
spend thinking about the higher level problems and issues that
they have to solve for instead of constantly running around
school watching everyone's little problems.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
This is not quite the same thing that there's a
tangential relationship here. I wrote about this in my book
The Great Vitalization is we need to move away from
management by presenteeism. Can I see you to management by productivity?
What is your output?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (30:16):
And it might be that that same output gets done
in six hours instead of nine or ten. But back
to the quality piece of it, and I think that
is a crucial, critical next step to get us to
focus on that, to get us away from these outdated
practices of how we've been managing employees to really this
new or more productive, conscious elevated way that I think
is really merited for today's times.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
Yeah, agreed, and that Deliverable's focused culture is important. The
thing that now we're struggling with is that you know,
once somebody gets something done in six hours that could
have taken nine, they're like, oh great, you have an
extra three hours, Now do this other thing. Right, So
you also have to realize that and we'll get more
into this later. The joy in allowing your employees to
(30:59):
have a life that if they finished their work and
that's not an excuse to pile more on that, you
can actually let them then take that time to replenish
themselves from what was probably a lot of hard, focused
work that they did for that period of time.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
And to take into consideration, there's a lot of research
out there that I've been seeing that indicates how traditionally
employees that have been you know, the ones that were
full time in the office, they would spend a lot
of time in the office, but they were also spending
a considerable amount of time planning their vacations at work,
handling their social calls, et cetera at work. So if
we're more we're more expeded and focused and actually what
(31:36):
we're producing, and therefore it seems to take less time.
I think it would be really interesting to see, are
we really comparing apples to oranges or apples to apples here?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
One hundred percent. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
If anybody tells you that they can focus hard for
eight straight hours and do that repeatedly day after day,
they are lying.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
I agreed. Yeah, we call that fibbing from the town
that I came from. Yeah, okay, let's grab our last break.
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. We've been on the
air with doctor Katina Sawyer and Associate Professor of Management
and Organizations in the Ellers College of Management at the
University of Arizona, co founder of Worker Being, and the
co host of the Thriving at Work podcast. We've been
(32:16):
talking about a few of the generator behaviors that you
can develop as a leader to start to create an
organization that's thriving and that promotes wellness. After the break,
we're going to cover off on a few more. We'll
be right back.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the world. To learn more or to
invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her
(33:05):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Alise A. Li Se at eliscortes dot com. Now back
(33:28):
to working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Thanksteresting with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose.
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I mentioned in the
last break that my last book came out at the
Great Revitalization. What I did for you is I created
a very simple three page organizational assessment that will help
you to determine the extent to which your current culture
is meeting the needs of today's discerning workforce. It's three pages.
You can find it at gustodeshnow dot com if you
(33:58):
are just joining us. My guest is doctor Katina Sawyer,
co author of Leading for Wellness, How to create a
team culture where everyone thrives. So let's talk about this another.
We're going to continue on and get through as many
of these generator behaders as we can. I love this
next one. It's just so crisp, crisp or swiftly becoming
a confidant.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Yes, yeah, So in this portion of the book, we
talk about the fact that leaders who are quite good
at building strong relationships focus on them from the beginning
and invest the time.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
And energy upfront in those relationships.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Doesn't mean that you can't go backwards if you haven't
done this already with other people, but as you onboard
new people, thinking about how you invest the time upfront
to really quickly build a strong connection. And so we
came with this idea of swift, and so swift is
all about setting aside time to dedicate a time to
really have meetings with employees where you don't talk about work,
(34:55):
you talk about things that are important to them outside
of life. You're creating a welcoming environment where they feel
comfortable to speak with you.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
So you're not sitting behind the desk being all rigid.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
You're inquiring about things that matter to them, asking a
lot of questions so you can learn more about who
they are as people and what matters to them and
what motivates them.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
And then you're following up on the things that you learn.
Speaker 5 (35:15):
You're bringing them back up in conversation, asking them about
things that they mentioned. So if they mentioned that, and
their children are extremely important to them, and there are
certain activities, you know, maybe their son is excellent at violin.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
You know, the next time you see that.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
Person saying, you know, how are things going with the
violin with your son? And you know, bringing up things
that you share in common. Little things like that go
a long way. And then finally reflecting, taking time to
think about okay, based on everything that I know about
the people on my team, how can I make my
leadership even better? How can I facilitate creating a motivating
environment or a more connected environment given the information that
(35:49):
I've garnered through these swift meetings.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
I really embrace that too. Of course, there's nothing in
your book that I don't embrace. But you know, remember
years I've taught over the years life so many supervisors
first time that they've managed people, then managers and leaders
and senior leaders. And one of the things I've always
said over the years is just how critical it is
to develop the capacity to really go looking for and
seeing and celebrating your people. There's something so beautiful and
(36:15):
magical when people feel seen, really seen for who they
are and celebrated for it. Not just I tolerate you,
I see you, but you're amazing, you know, I see
how special in the unique human that you are walking
the planet.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
One hundred percent agree.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
Yeah, And you can't really celebrate those things if you
don't know what they are. So asking those kinds of
questions can help you get that information.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
Yeah, I don't think it counts that we can celebrate.
Oh look, you're breathing that's so cool, gat Yeah, agreed. Okay,
this next one is really really near and dear to
my heart, Casina, be elastic. Your way isn't always right.
And the reason I want to start with their situate
that that way is, I know how easy it is
when you're wet. This works really great for me, wonderful.
(37:00):
Not the only meat in the room, especially not on
your full team. So if you could expand on this
generator behavior, be elastic.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
I think a lot of times, particularly for leaders, we
think that what got us to this position is going
to be exactly what gets other people to this position.
And the reality is that different people work in different
ways and both can be where both of your ways
if you're thinking about employee who you're mentoring, can be
equally effective while looking quite different. And we see a
lot of we saw a lot in the extinguisher camp
(37:29):
of leaders being like, do it this way, you need
to do it this way. I worked with someone who
an interview question that they used to ask was you know,
if you found out that a very successful person structured their.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Day this way, what would you do with that information?
Speaker 5 (37:42):
And if you gave the answer in the interview anything
other than I would also structure my day exactly that way.
That was considered a wrong answer in the interview. That's
the sort of thing that we're talking about here. There's
not one way to success, and it's great for you
to share what's helped you get to be where you are,
and maybe that will resonate with other people, But the
expectation that people have to do it exactly the way
(38:02):
that you've done it is really putting people in a
box that's not aligning with their personal preferences and what's
going to make them most successful.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
One hundred percent agree. Now related to that, this is
really fresh for me. I guess I knew this intuitively,
but I've never seen anybody distinguish it this way. You
describe how people approach work either as segmenters or integrators
in terms of how they fit work in life together.
Speaker 5 (38:27):
Yeah, So this is a term that came from the
research and not from our research from other folks with
research that we saw coming up again and again in
our research that seemed to matter for how generators were
managing their employees. So integrators are folks who like to
intersperse work in life activities across the course of the
(38:48):
day that means that their workday is usually longer because
they're taking time out.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
In the middle of the day to do life activities,
and they don't find any.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
Hindrance in switching back and forth between life and work
tests They like it that way.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Segmentors are different.
Speaker 5 (39:06):
Segmentors are people who say, I'm starting my work day
at whatever time, and my work day ends at this time,
and interruptions really throw them. They like to be in
one head space and then shift to another headspace, so
they're much more bothered by sick person in their household
who keeps interrupting them during work time, or a boss
(39:28):
who calls them outside of work hours right that throws
them off much more. Neither of these is better or
worse than the other. They both can be equally productive.
The problem is that people often expect that the way
they would do things is the way that other people
should do things. So an integrator who you know has
spent their day sprinkling in other life activities and then
(39:50):
reaches out to a coworker on their team at six
pm who's a segmentor and says, hey, can we talk
for a few minutes is going to get annoyed when
that person says no, I'm not available, what we can
talk tomorrow morning, right, thinking that they're not maybe as
dedicated or on on the job. The reality is that
person may have put in more time during the day
than that person did, and they're just being good about
setting their boundaries. So a first step or an entry
(40:12):
point into understanding these two ways of operating is to
ask the question, to get a sense of who on
your team operates this way, and then to recognize that
your way is not the best way. So the same
idea of being elastic, right, just because you're an integrator,
segmentor doesn't mean everybody else has to be.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Yeah, I think it's helpful, and I know that I've
I've heard many people have been a little bit surprised
the simple idea of you know, what's the golden world
tretose as you would like to be treated. Except that's
not good enough. You need the platinum rule, which is,
you know, treat others as they wish to be treated.
That's another level of understanding and engagement, so so so
important not to assume just because it works for you,
(40:51):
that you know that will work for them. And I'm
an I'm an integrator, so I can appreciate that, and
I part of my team that are mentors, and I
totally appreciate that and apply that. But I really liked
how crisp it is that you've given me this terminology
to be able to distinguish that. It's just gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Thank you, You're welcome.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
So you mentioned boundaries before, and this next one I
thought was really powerful when it comes to really cultivating
wellness in an organization. The idea of becoming a boundary bouncer.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Yeah, So we were thinking about what's the right imagery
for this, and one of the things that kept coming
up for us was this idea of a bouncer at
a club and there's a velvet rope and you have said,
you know, this is my boundary is this is my
non negotiable. I won't take a work call during my
(41:42):
daughter's soccer practice, right like, I want to be really
present for that. And unfortunately, what we see in a
lot of the stories about extinguishers is that the extinguisher
will say, oh, yeah, no, totally, that makes sense, and
then they'll text or call during that time period and
say I know that you you know said that you
don't like to take calls right now, but you know
it's just going to take a few minutes, or you
know they're they're constantly breaking these boundaries that employees are
(42:05):
asking them to uphold. And so we like the vision
of thinking of yourself standing as a leader with this
velvet rope and your employees are back there and you're
trying to figure out, okay, who gets.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Let through right?
Speaker 5 (42:21):
Who are we going to say is okay to break
these boundaries and being very judicious about that. So let's
say you feel better in your wellness. I know, for me,
my eyes start to hurt if I stare at a
screen for too long, So taking a little screen break
is very helpful for me in being able to continue
to be productive in my day.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So let's say someone has that and they say, you know, I.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
Would love to, you know, be able to get away
from the computer and take a walk every day from
twelve to twelve thirty. And if I could hold that
time sacred on my calendar, it'll make me much more
productive later in the afternoon. The leader would make sure
that other people on the team respect that boundary. If
there's a non urgent or even you know, an urgent
(43:06):
but could be done at a different time that day
meeting that comes across their desk that.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
That employee needs to be in.
Speaker 5 (43:11):
They would make sure that people are not trampling over
that or encourage the employee to hold that time. However,
let's say there's a client call that's happening and the
only time the client can make it is noon on Thursday,
and so for this one time, you might have to
take your walk at one instead of noon. The leader
might say, okay, velvet rope for this one instance. That
(43:31):
can't repeat over and over again, right, but being really
clear about making sure that the default is upholding the boundary.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
You're not really allowed in here.
Speaker 5 (43:41):
This is a VIP area as opposed to the default
being like the velvet ropes open and just run on in.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Yeah. I think that's really really powerful when when people
feel like the leaders protect and them really cares about
their well being, their wellness, and they recognize, you know,
when somebody from another department calls and says, hey, you know,
I really needed to get this report up. Actually know,
they don't let is there I think, is there room
for us? It gets to you tomorrow kind of thing,
exactly right, And I just I think that's just such
(44:07):
a really crisp, fresh perspective, Katina, just really good stuff. Thanks, Yeah,
good stuff. Okay, now let's talk about the next behavior
generator behavior the power of person centered planning.
Speaker 5 (44:20):
Yeah, so this is sort of at the heart of
a lot of things that we talk about in the book,
but we put it at the end because it's one
of the meteor concepts and you kind of need to
work up some of the other skills to be able
to engage in this well. But the idea is that
you're tailoring your approach to the individual employees who are
on your team and trying to avoid blanket solutions. And
(44:44):
what this means is that you're The idea of person
centered planning is a Roseerian idea from the psychology literature,
where you know, it's been used in therapy, where you're
listening to someone with non judgmental, positive regard about what
is important to them, what they'll need to feel in balance,
(45:04):
and you're using these skills of you know, recognizing that
your away is not always the way and building these
swift connections in order to really facilitate a positive process.
But the idea is that the employee feels comfortable sharing
with you, things that are getting in their way of
being productive at work, things that would be really helpful
for them to be productive at work, things that would
(45:25):
be helpful for them in their lives, right to feel
more whole and happy at human beings, and that you're
really listening to and gathering that information and using that
information kind of like a map of how to support
that employee, and then looking across the employees who you
support and understanding what can you do to create an
environment where they're all most likely to thrive. And that
(45:45):
might mean meeting people where they are with certain things,
and that might also mean, like, hey, win for me.
Everybody said that they would love for us to take
a fifteen minute mindfulness break at three pm.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Every day, So we're going to try to do that,
you know.
Speaker 5 (45:59):
So there are certain things that might work for everybody,
and there are certain things that might work only for
one person or two people.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
So trying to.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
Be as much as possible. No world is perfect and
nobody is going to get every single one of their
needs checked off right, But to the extent that you can,
trying to tailor your approach to your team can be
really helpful.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
And again that takes you know that time that we're
just focusing on the person, the relationship development as we
talked about before, all those things that are so important,
and what I want to emphasize here, ladies and gentlemen,
is that the more you incorporate these behaviors into yourself
as a as a as a leader, the more all
your relationships across your life are going to improve. Everybody,
everything is going to get better when you when you
(46:41):
incorporate this this across your life. So it's just beautiful,
goes that ripple effect we were talking about before. So
we're coming to the end of the show, and you
did have a you have a chapter here on you know,
leaders embracing the idea of eliminating mental health stigma, which
we don't have time to go into, but I want
to situate that is also an important thing that they
got to take a stand for that to really make
this work well. And then also, you know, as you
(47:04):
incorporate and start to embrace these behaviors, especially in an
organization that doesn't naturally have them, you're going to get
back last and you're going to get pushed back. So
Katina and Patricia have some great stuff in there in
their book, and I'm sure on their podcast and in
their consulting to help you with that navigate those waters.
So I just want to situate that we want to
round this up as we recognize that you becoming this
(47:27):
human being that we're talking about encouraging you to become,
you will face resistance from those who don't understand it
and who haven't quite gotten there yet.
Speaker 5 (47:35):
Absolutely, yeah, and we do provide some strategies for navigating
what if you're housed in a toxic work culture, or
what if you don't have a lot of champions that
think that this is a good idea, or what if
you're getting burntout trying to, you know, tailor these solutions
to everybody on the team and you're feeling like it's
(47:55):
taking a lot of your time and energy.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
How can you streamline things and how can you replenish
your own energy?
Speaker 4 (48:00):
It's greatness. Well, as you can see, I'm a fan.
I'm certainly happy to evangelize this and I'm so happy
to meet you, Katina. I'm so grateful that this all
worked out that you and I got to meet us.
So I look forward to meeting Patricia as well. Yes,
I think you probably know by now that this show
is listened to, why people around the world who really
are either trying to cultivate their own leadership, acumen, prowess,
(48:21):
or they're trying to learn how to become better in
their own career, or maybe even their leaders that are
trying to create those organizations that better the world. What
would you like to leave them with?
Speaker 5 (48:32):
Yeah, I think that if we could summarize things in
one sentence, it would be that wellness is not a
program or a band aid. Wellness is about the day
to day experiences that your employees have. So if you
really think about how to cultivate positive and uplifting and
supportive day to day experiences that match people's wellness needs,
(48:52):
you're going to do a lot better than throwing spaghetti
at the wall with a wellness budget and putting a
bunch of programs in place that you're not sure why
it's going to stick.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
Beautiful way to finish, Katina not surprised, all right, So listener,
thank you so much for being on Katina.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
It's just real life.
Speaker 4 (49:08):
It's a great, wonderful surprise that we that I got
to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Awesome, all right.
Speaker 4 (49:12):
So listeners and viewers, you are going to want to
learn more about Katina Sawyer and also her co author,
doctor Patricia Grayberick, their podcast The work they do at
worker Being, So start by visiting their website. It's worker being.
Let me spell it for you because it's a little
bit of a different spelling on both. Worker is w
O r k R no E being b e I
(49:33):
G two to to b e ing dot com so
workerbeing dot com. Last week, if you missed the live show,
you can always catch a via recorded podcast. We were
on air with Taniel Miller talking about her book The
Flourishing Effect, Unlocking Employee thriving and high Performance as your
competitive Advantage. It was an incredibly educational and inspiring conversation.
One important thing I took from more conversation is that
(49:55):
in a time when seventy percent of the workforce is disengaged,
to neil help us understand that people don't choose to
disengage from work, deciding to wake up and spend most
of their day in a state of boredom, frustration and anxiety,
stress and alienation just to earn a paycheck. Rather, disengagement
is a coping mechanism any healthy human would employ to
(50:16):
avoid the cognitive dissonance or mental discomfort of having to
function in an environment where they find themselves unsafe, stifled,
or in an otherwise warped experience of reality. In other words,
there is so much we can do to create environments
and work experiences to help people thrive at work that
are not present today in most workplaces. Next, we will
(50:36):
be on air with Robert Bordoni and Joel Salinez talking
about their powerful new book, Conflict Resilience, Negotiating disagreement without
giving up or giving in a toolkit for coming together
in a conflicted world. See you then, and remember work
as one of the best adventures and means of realizing
our potential and making the impact we crave and can
give us the opportunity to do business in a way
(50:58):
that betters the world. So let's Work on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, let's work on purpose.
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
those of W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's employees are affiliates.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY
Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments
should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
(00:51):
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor
Elise Cortes.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working and Purpose program, which has
been brought to with passion and pride since February of
twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week. Great to
have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. If we
have not met before and you don't know me, I'm
an organizational psychologist to management consultant, local therapists, speaker and author.
My team and I at Gusto Now help companies to
enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high
performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose.
(01:28):
And did you know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied
peers by a factor of two point twenty five to one.
In other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line.
You can learn more about us on how we can
work together at gustodashnow dot com or my personal site
at Lascortes dot com. Before we get into today's program,
I am thrilled to announce the registration is open for
a fabulous new conference for women for which I'll serve
(01:49):
as the MC. It's called Thrive in twenty five and
is a jam packed few days in Chicago June twenty
fifth through twenty eight, twenty twenty five, designed to develop
women as whole selves from both during your mindset to
your financial acumen, to leadership, to incorporating nature and art
into your life to raise consciousness, and much more. Visit
thrive in twenty five dot com for information and to register.
(02:11):
Use my promo code Gusto all caps to gain access
to the free books and programs. I'll be gifting registrants
as well. See you there now getting in today's program
we have with us today. Katina Sawyer a PhD and
Associate Professor of Management and Organization in the Ellers College
of Management at the University of Arizona. She's also co
founder of Worker Being, co host of the Thriving at
(02:33):
Work podcast, and co author of Leading for Wellness, How
to create a team culture where everyone thrives, which will
be diving into today. Specifically, we'll be discussing workplace wellness,
why it's important, and what's in it for you as
a leader to improve it, and then discuss several key
behaviors leaders can develop to cultivate wellness in their organizations.
She knows today from Tucson, Arizona. Doctor Sooya a hearty
(02:56):
welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Me too, and I just love celebrating, you know, really
beautiful things that get put into the world, like this
thing right here, right and as you know, of course
I read it cover to cover, can quite sepers but
you're so welcome. You're so welcome. And of course, as
I mentioned in our correspondence, you know, there's a lot
of things that you're up to in your business, your podcast,
your book that aligns a lot with my world. So
that's going to be a fun conversation. Okay, So the
(03:24):
first thing I want to do is I want to
step into just let's talk about definitions and situating what
we're talking about here. So let's talk about what just
wellness means first.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Yeah, So actually this was something we were interested in
when we started writing the book. While wellness has some
academic definitions, and actually those take varied forms, so there's
not a lot of agreement in the scientific literature of
what wellness means either. We feel like when companies say
wellness and when employees say wellness, they're not always speaking
(03:55):
the same language. And so one of the things that
we initially wanted to do in our research for the
book was really tacked down what does wellness mean to
employees when they say they want companies to support their wellness,
And what we found is that it had four components,
a physical component, an emotional component, a mental health component,
and a work life balance component. And those seem to
(04:18):
be the things that employees are looking for when they're
saying they want organizations to support their wellness.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
M beautiful, so, Crisp. The other thing that was kind
of interesting about that is when it comes to this
idea of wellness. I mean I remember during the pandemic, Katina,
when we started talking about well being as an important
thing that the c suitet leaders were focused on, and
I thought, oh, this is good. We haven't been talking
about this for quite someever, have we. Even the Gallup
(04:44):
organization went from engagement to a well being. Yeah, that
was a really good thing. And then you know, something happened.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
So I'm so happy to see that you are advancing
this initiative and you've got resources, you're putting this out
into the world because I think it's sorely needed and important,
and I think it got sort of sent to the
back seat again.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
Yeah, I think specifically, certain components of wellness got sent
to the back seat at the time of the pandemic,
people were emotionally suffering quite a lot and having a
lot of authentic and vulnerable conversations.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And then it was kind of like companies wanted to.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
Put Pandora back in the box, you know, like we're
just going to forget that happen and move forward and
readopt our old norms.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
And that doesn't work.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Like, once the cats out of that bag, it's really
hard to go backwards, right. And So while we still
see companies spending money on workplace wellness initiatives and doing
step challenges and things like that, which aren't bad in
and of themselves, certain components, the tougher components, the components
that are actually about changing the norms of our workplace
seem to have been pushed back to the back burner,
(05:48):
as you're suggesting.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Which is really this conversation is really exciting for me, Katina,
because I really am I'm a future of work sort
of researcher. I'm a social scientist here about work being
a place where people can see it as a experience,
as a playground and not a solow crushing place that
they have to go to with their paycheck. So and
I do I have seen that gap between how the
(06:11):
workforce has evolved, think in part in part because of
what's been catalyzed in the pandemic. But yet, you know,
unfortunately our companies and much of our leadership is still
you know, there's a gap between those two domains.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
Yeah, I think we are really held onto these sticky
norms that we talk about in the book called ideal
worker norms, and those norms were actually derived back in
time when employees had more focused spheres between work and
life that they were dedicated towards. And of course we've
(06:44):
made great progress in having more flexibility and letting people
choose which spheres they're more attracted to. Do they want
to be more focused on life or work or work
or life, right, But at the time that these ideal
worker norms came about, it was more traditional, you know,
a normative couple split, where a husband would go into
the workforce and a wife would stay home. And the
assumption with sort of that work can be number one
(07:07):
at all times and other things aren't interrupting. And while
we've evolved somewhat on that front, the world has changed
much faster than our norms have, and so we're trying
to cling on to this old norm of what it
means to be a leader and what it means to
be a good employee that just doesn't match the realities
of the lives that employees live.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Completely agree, one hundred percent. So you know, there is
a lot of research out there. Your research is gold,
and there's just so much out there that speaks, you know,
to what needs to happen. So why aren't leaders focusing
on wellness? And if they do, how are they, as
you like to say, treating it.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Yeah, so I think that leaders are sort of taking
cues from what their organizations ask them to prioritize. And
while workplaces have been investing more time and energy and
attention into employee health and wellbeing, it's not what they
ask their leaders to focus on. They ask their leaders
to focus on results and the bottom line and making
(08:05):
sure that you know, they're delivering on expectations. And because
they're not asking leaders to see and framing these wellness
initiatives or wellness focuses in as part of what does
help drive those results, leaders view them as being at
odds and so they think, well, either I can make
(08:26):
people happy and healthy, or I can drive results.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
But when push comes to shove.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
I'm going to just try to be results focused, which
often means, you know, overwork making people put the pedals
to the medal, deprioritizing their lives, which we all know
as a recipe for burnout and a lower level of
productivity in the long term. But what they're trying to
do is prioritize what they hear their workplace is saying.
And workplaces are not often putting these two things in
conversation with one another.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
That's very chris So that brings us to then what
can we actually do as leaders just start to change
the tide of the ship. And I love that in
all the search that you do, and I love research too.
This is great. You found at least two kinds of leaders,
and I don't know if they were more in your research,
but I'm interested certainly what you talk about in the book,
the generators and the extinguishers. So let's let our listeners
(09:11):
and viewers understand what are those two leaders like?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Sure?
Speaker 5 (09:14):
Yeah, So in the research we did for the book,
we asked people to nominate and discuss with us leaders
they had who they felt were exemplary at supporting their wellness,
and we did dozens of in depth interviews and then
hundreds of people filled out surveys afterwards to sort of
verify our findings to try to understand who those people
were and what they were doing, and we came up
(09:35):
with the term generator because the leaders who we heard
about who were exemplary at doing this tended to be
leaders who really amplified the energy on their team, made
people feel extra engaged at work, made people feel like
their health was better than ever physical health, mental health.
So not only were they thriving in their workplaces, they
were also feeling like their lives were improving and that
(09:57):
they were having a great level of work life balance
that they act actually we're reaching a balance that was
appropriate for them, that they felt in balance, and so
all of those things led us to name these leaders
who we are providing a roadmap in our book for
how to become more like generators.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
The interesting thing.
Speaker 5 (10:14):
About the process of doing the interviews and surveys for
this book was that while we were asking people to
really focus on we don't want to know what not
to do, because the presence of good leadership isn't just
the absence of bad leadership.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So we don't want this book to be a bunch
of like don't, don't, don't, don't, don't do this right.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
We want it to be what can you do to
get yourself proactively great at this? And what we found
in the interviews was that it was often challenging to
keep people on track from talking about foils to this. So,
you know, we'd hear a lot of let me tell
you about this great leader that I had, this is
what this person did in comparison to this horrible person
(10:52):
that I had, And then they would go on and
talk about and tell stories about.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
These other folks.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
And what we started to realize was that the natural
emergence of these stories about extinguishers, which we ended up
calling them in the book, the extinguishers are really people
who suck energy and life out of a team and
out of their employees. And we realized that one of
the reasons these were organically occurring stories about these folks
(11:17):
were organically occurring was because people really view the generators
in opposition to or they were highlighting a useful distinction
for us that we actually found helpful in conveying these
concepts in our book, which is it's not just about
avoiding being an extinguisher, which you also need to learn.
It's about getting to being a generator, but you kind
(11:37):
of need to understand the behaviors of both to get
yourself to that place.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
Gorgeous, so well said. You know, when I was doing
my meeting and work and identity research for my PhD,
I started to recognize as I was asking people about
their identities and I forget how it came up, but
who people that they'd learned things from. I discovered what
concept that I began to call the anti role model.
People would talk about, you know, who they did not
(12:01):
want to be, Like, thanks very much for showing me
who I don't want to be. Yeah, so listeners and viewers,
let's talk. Let's just distinguishing me from my vantage point
that the anti role model would be the extinguisher.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Correct, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
And I love that term anti role model because you
can and these folks did. Who we talked to learned
a lot from the people who they had negative experiences with.
But it was a painful process, right, So so learning
was happening, but also some strife.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Yeah for sure. Okay, since now we're now getting into
the leader leadership and leader realm, here I think it
makes a ton of sense, especially for people that are
thinking this is really soft and squishy and you know,
not a lot of substance here. Let's talk about the
workplace wellness matters, how it actually matters. I know you've
got at least four perspectives in the book, but let's
let's hit those next.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, so we view workplace wellness as well.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
You know, obviously we wrote this book so we feel
really confident that workplace wellness is an important top to
focus on.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
But we also think about this not.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Just from the perspective of individual employees, which is one
level which we've already talked about a little bit. People
get more satisfied, they feel more engaged, they are more committed,
so the quality of their.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Experience at work improves, right.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
But there's also benefits in it for the leader themselves,
and I think that that's something that often gets overlooked.
We heard not only that the employees were feeling better,
but also that leaders who lead this way actually have
better experiences in their work lives and tend to leave
behind better legacies that they can be more proud of.
They also have teams that are willing to kind of
(13:41):
stick with them stand by them, they have stronger relationships
with them, and as human beings, we want to have
strong relationships with people across domains, whether that's work or
in our personal lives. So the leaders actually end up
having a better time. And then the last two have
to do with organizational and societal implicationations.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
So when individuals and leaders.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Are thriving and having better experiences and stronger relationships and
feeling more productive and committed, that rises the tide of
the organization. The organization overall becomes more productive, bottom line
goes up. They also become a better place to work,
so easier to recruit and retain talent. But word of
mouth goes a long way. People speak more positively, that
(14:23):
net promoter score that folks sometimes talk about, So your organization.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Looks better, feels better, does better.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
And the last piece, which is really what got Patricia
and I into doing industrial organizational psychology to begin with,
is that businesses can have a huge impact on society.
And when we think about the responsibility that organizations have
to produce healthy, whole citizens who have energy to give
(14:51):
back to their communities and their families and their friends,
that's something that can boost an entire area, an entire region,
right when you have good employers in that area. Because
if you're spitting out a bunch of people who are
burn out and irritated and frustrated and just want to
roll up in a ball and go to bed at
the end of the day, versus people who want to
get out of their workplace and have a great meal
(15:12):
with family and friends and go coach their kids.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Sports team or whatever the case may be. That improves
whole communities.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
And that's what we really think is great about unlocking
these secrets is that as a leader, you can see
the ripple effects down, but you can also see the
ripple effects out and up.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
I'm really aligned with that, Katina. You know, I'm a
conscious capitalist, and my business books are certainly grounded in
conscious capitalism. And even if we just forget about all
the amazing bottom line results that you're going to get
by focusing on this and you start to recognize that
business can truly be a force for good in the world,
it's so inspiring. And what we also know, Katina, is
those kinds of organizations that behave that way, that perform
(15:52):
in that way, tend to attract a lot more investors
and I'm more interested. And then, of course, you know, employees,
as you were saying before, opt into that with their feet,
and consumers opt in with their wallets. So yeah, there's
a lot of reason to be able to start to
incorporate this kind of thinking into the way that you
operate as a business. Totally, speaking of business, I got
(16:12):
to ask you about yours and if you've got to
start with why you named it worker being, it's so fantastic.
So tell us about worker being how it came to
be in what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
So, Patricia and I are friends from graduate school. We
met while we were doing our PhDs in industrial organizational psychology,
and we both studied sort.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Of similar things.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
That had to do with what helps employees and workplaces
to thrive. She studied more emotions at work and the
expression of emotions at work. I studied more on the
diversity and inclusion side of things, but we were both
interested in the same end goal. We stayed in touch
as friends after graduation, close touch, and I went into
academia and she went into practice, and we ended up
(16:55):
at a friend's wedding and after a couple of glasses
of wine, we were talking about some of the things
that were kind of frustrating us about what we were
hearing from students and clients, and one of those things
was that we felt like there wasn't a lot of
translation of the science of workplace wellness into the actual workplace, right,
(17:18):
And so we knew there was all this great research
out there that we had learned in graduate school, but
we were still noticing that our students and our clients
were asking us very basic questions for which there was
like decades of research on to answer those questions. And
that was making us realize that this information must not
be very accessible to the average employee.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So we started thinking about why that was.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
And one of the main reasons is because, well, first
of all, you need training to decipher these academic articles
where a lot of this research sits. And second, they're
behind a paywall, and so if your organization doesn't have
access to these things, which most don't, it's really challenging
to get your hands on that. So you're always reading
a synthesis or other people's take on the research as
opposed to the source, and that can sort of muddy
(18:00):
the waters, right. So our initial idea with worker being
was let's start a blog where we take different topics
that we know the research on and we make them
very accessible and we link to other places that are
not behind a paywall where people might be able to
actually access some of this data and start spreading the
word that way. And once people caught onto the blog,
(18:22):
they suggested that maybe we start a podcast, because people
don't always like to read, they also like to listen,
so we did that, and then as we were doing
those two things, we noticed that people kept asking us
a lot for actions. So, yeah, I really believe in
the power of workplace wellness and I like what you
both doing.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm a leader. Give me a Roadmack, give me an
action plan.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
And when we went to the literature to look for that,
that was one of the first times we got kind
of stumped. There wasn't really anything out there that provided that.
So we decided at that point to pivot and do
some of our own original research, which is what produced
the book, and to round out the end or why
do we call it worker being?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
We think the idea of a worker.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Bee is a you know, a well known concept that
you're sort of just this, you know, put your head down,
cog and a wheel, and we want people to shift
their focus away from employees being worker bees to thinking
about their well being.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
So worker being was born gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
I love it. Okay, And on that note, let's let's
let's grab our first break. I'm your host, doctor Earlei Scrtesk.
We're on the air with doctor Katina Sawyer and Associate
Professor of Management and Organization Organizations in the other College
of Management at the University of Arizona, also co founder
of Worker Being, the co host of the Thriving at
Work podcast. We've been talking about what is well placed
(19:40):
workplace wellness, why it's important, and why should care about it.
After the break, we're going to get into teaching you
about some of these generator behaviors leaders can develop an
embrace to to create that kind of a workplace for
your organization. We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning imfuse cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a lease to speak to your organization. Please visit her
(20:30):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Alise A Lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to
(20:54):
working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Thanks for saying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I too,
am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize
their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders that
help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do
business that betters the world. I continue to research and
write my own books. So my last one came out
in twenty twenty three. It's called The Great Revitalization, How
activating meaning and purpose can radically in liven your business.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And I wrote it to.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Help leaders understand what we've been talking about in this program,
how the world the workforce has changed, and what do
you need to do as an organization in your culture
to address that to provide that. So then I provide
you twenty two best practices to equip you to put
that into your culture so that they will stay with
you and actually thrive. You can find my books on
Amazon or on my personal site at least Coortes dot
(21:45):
com if you are just now joining us. My guest
is doctor Katina Sawyer, the co author of Leading for Wellness,
How to Create a Team culture where everyone Thrives. So
now let's get through as many as we can in
the time that we have here. I want to talk
about these beautiful generator behaviors that leaders can develop. So
one of the things that we do in this program
is we educate and we also inspire, So I always
(22:07):
want people to leave the show with actionable things they
can start to do and fold into their practice. So
let's talk about as many of these as we can.
So I'll start with the first one, which of course
I can't resist. You say that generator behaviors that show
that people that they're that humans. Leaders are actually human
beings and not superhumans. So therefore that requires that they
(22:28):
must fire their work self.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yeah, we really couch this.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
Going back to that concept of ideal worker norms, so
many of us take on work personas that we've adapted
and adopted from people we've seen you mentioned, you know,
role models, anti role models.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Who do you want to be like? Who do you
not want to be like?
Speaker 5 (22:50):
However, often the things that we've sort of embodied are subconscious.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
We might be promoting norms that we haven't even.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Thought through, and we might be setting a tone that
we're not even consciously aware of, or that we haven't
selected ourselves. We sort of passed down the behaviors that
we see from other people, we don't often think about
how much they're really us. And so the idea of
firing your work self is really taking some contemplative time
to think about who you are and how you show
(23:20):
up at work and whether that's genuinely and authentically you,
or whether that's a set of norms and behaviors that
you've picked up along the way that don't really really
reflect how you want to lead. And so when we
say fire your work self, we mean really thinking hard
about who your work self is, whether that aligns with
your true self, and firing the parts that are not
(23:42):
authentic to you, and beginning to lead from a place
of centeredness around your individuality totally.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
And for that, this next one I think is probably
going to make a few people cringe just a little bit,
and yet it's so so so important, and that's the
idea of embracing your struggle.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yes, yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
We got this idea from the participants in our study,
but also an anecdote from my personal life. An academic
who I admire so so much told me about a
practice that she does called an anti resume, which is
basically putting all the things she's very decorated many accolades,
(24:22):
and her students were saying, you know, I just don't
know how I can be you like you win at everything.
You're just successful all the time. And she really took
that to heart and thought, you know what, I'm going
to make a list of all the things I've failed at.
Every grant I applied for that I didn't get, every
class I taught where my ratings weren't great, every journal
article that I submitted that got rejected, and I'm going
to give that to my students along with my resume.
(24:44):
And really that line of thinking really has always resonated
with me from early in my career that we don't
see a lot of these struggle statements from people who
have been successful were in leadership roles, and so people
just assume that they're not that they're not struggling, that
things just come to them, that they don't have any
worries or fears. And what we have found out in
(25:06):
this idea that people don't want superhero leaders is that
when you share your struggles, it actually creates stronger and
more authentic bonds with other people around you because they're
struggling with things too, and instead of sort of highlighting
that there's something wrong with you, you're actually highlighting that
there's a commonality between you and the people who you're leading.
So you're thinking you're pointing out something negative about yourself,
(25:28):
Really what you're showing is that you all share in
the fact that you're not perfect, and that creates really strong,
authentic bonds. But it also motivates people to think that
they can also be leaders, because if you think that
leaders have to be perfect and you know that you're
not perfect, you may not try to be a leader
because you don't see that as a possible outcome for you.
So not only is it helpful for building these relationships,
(25:51):
but it's also helpful for making sure that the people
who you're trying to cultivate and mentor actually see leadership
as a viable option for them.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
I love that. And also, in addition, that occurs to
me that that practice of showing your struggles and what
you've dealt with and how you've grown through them, what
that does is it creates a learning culture. Right, we learn,
we grow here, That's how we do here. And I
really like that I have a woman and that she's
a leader that I've been coaching for years as within
(26:19):
the organization that I work with, and she has this
thing where she this is related to both the first
two behaviors. She says, she's developed this pattern of saying
this is me being vulnerable, and then she goes on
to say something that she's struggling with. It works beautiful
because as soon as she says that, one, people are
leaning in and listening yes, and two she's just opened
this beautiful space between them. So it's kind of a
(26:41):
combination the first to the first two generator behaviors. But
I love that in that beautiful And then you know,
having struggle statements. I know in the book you talk
about developing actual struggle statements that show others that you
have weaknesses at work. Too, But I think that is
that just I think there's so much there because people
look at your like, wow, they're the big VP or
they're the CEO whatever, and you know, but they didn't
(27:03):
strip that way right exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Some of the best conversations that I've seen are panels
that I've seen with very senior people in organizations, are
panels where they're really honest about the sacrifices and struggles
that they've had. I saw a panel early on in
my career where someone asked the question of you know,
what do you struggle with most? And I watched three
executives in a row say something to the effect of,
you know, I just think I'm the type of person
(27:27):
who has made for this sort of thing. Had just deflected,
didn't want to say any struggle. And finally there was
a woman at the end of the panel and she said,
I'll tell you exactly what I've struggled with. I've struggled
with a lot named a bunch of struggles. And you
could feel the whole audience just like a sigh of relief.
And the questions that got asked after that, the questions
that she got from the audience and the q and
(27:48):
A were very different from the questions that the other
people got because people are like, Okay, this is an
opportunity for me to hear real information as opposed to
like a canned talk track that I think sometimes we
develop as leaders to be teflon.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so next behavior for generators that we
want to develop ladies and gentlemen setting the right tone.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
So we are taught and you know, I'm guilty of
this too in my own career.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Matricia and I have talked about this.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
We're taught that the measure of productivity and performance and
success is how much time you spend working, and that's
sort of beaten into us from an early age that
time matters. So we see all these time based behaviors,
people sending emails extremely early, extremely late. I had a
friend who worked for a company where they installed nat
(28:36):
pods as part of a wellness initiative, and people used
it to sleep at work to show that, you know,
they were actually never leaving, right. So so there are
you know, these signals that people try to send that
they're putting in the most time. And what these leaders
do is they understand that time is not really the
most important metric. The most important metric is not how
(28:56):
long you're doing something for, but how well you're doing something.
So they focus a lot more on the quality of
experience that employees they're having, which produces a higher quality
level of work. So setting a positive team tone, recognizing
employees for the work that they do, making sure that
people have appropriate levels of balance. These are all things
(29:16):
that come back to you and actually end up saving
the team time. So many leaders tell us that they
don't have time to think about the tone because they're
always putting out fires and things are always going wrong. Well,
when you set a good tone, the people on the
team don't feel like they constantly have to come to
you to solve all their problems. They help each other
solve problems, the environment becomes more collaborative, the product quality
(29:39):
goes up. Right, So all of these things are related,
and the mindset shift away from time to tone is
something that we heard over and over again.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
That these leaders are.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Doing really well and then they have more time to
spend thinking about the higher level problems and issues that
they have to solve for instead of constantly running around
school watching everyone's little problems.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
This is not quite the same thing that there's a
tangential relationship here. I wrote about this in my book
The Great Vitalization is we need to move away from
management by presenteeism. Can I see you to management by productivity?
What is your output?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (30:16):
And it might be that that same output gets done
in six hours instead of nine or ten. But back
to the quality piece of it, and I think that
is a crucial, critical next step to get us to
focus on that, to get us away from these outdated
practices of how we've been managing employees to really this
new or more productive, conscious elevated way that I think
is really merited for today's times.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
Yeah, agreed, and that Deliverable's focused culture is important. The
thing that now we're struggling with is that you know,
once somebody gets something done in six hours that could
have taken nine, they're like, oh great, you have an
extra three hours, Now do this other thing. Right, So
you also have to realize that and we'll get more
into this later. The joy in allowing your employees to
(30:59):
have a life that if they finished their work and
that's not an excuse to pile more on that, you
can actually let them then take that time to replenish
themselves from what was probably a lot of hard, focused
work that they did for that period of time.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
And to take into consideration, there's a lot of research
out there that I've been seeing that indicates how traditionally
employees that have been you know, the ones that were
full time in the office, they would spend a lot
of time in the office, but they were also spending
a considerable amount of time planning their vacations at work,
handling their social calls, et cetera at work. So if
we're more we're more expeded and focused and actually what
(31:36):
we're producing, and therefore it seems to take less time.
I think it would be really interesting to see, are
we really comparing apples to oranges or apples to apples here?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
One hundred percent. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
If anybody tells you that they can focus hard for
eight straight hours and do that repeatedly day after day,
they are lying.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
I agreed. Yeah, we call that fibbing from the town
that I came from. Yeah, okay, let's grab our last break.
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. We've been on the
air with doctor Katina Sawyer and Associate Professor of Management
and Organizations in the Ellers College of Management at the
University of Arizona, co founder of Worker Being, and the
co host of the Thriving at Work podcast. We've been
(32:16):
talking about a few of the generator behaviors that you
can develop as a leader to start to create an
organization that's thriving and that promotes wellness. After the break,
we're going to cover off on a few more. We'll
be right back.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the world. To learn more or to
invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her
(33:05):
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to
Alise A. Li Se at eliscortes dot com. Now back
(33:28):
to working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Thanksteresting with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose.
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I mentioned in the
last break that my last book came out at the
Great Revitalization. What I did for you is I created
a very simple three page organizational assessment that will help
you to determine the extent to which your current culture
is meeting the needs of today's discerning workforce. It's three pages.
You can find it at gustodeshnow dot com if you
(33:58):
are just joining us. My guest is doctor Katina Sawyer,
co author of Leading for Wellness, How to create a
team culture where everyone thrives. So let's talk about this another.
We're going to continue on and get through as many
of these generator behaders as we can. I love this
next one. It's just so crisp, crisp or swiftly becoming
a confidant.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Yes, yeah, So in this portion of the book, we
talk about the fact that leaders who are quite good
at building strong relationships focus on them from the beginning
and invest the time.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
And energy upfront in those relationships.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Doesn't mean that you can't go backwards if you haven't
done this already with other people, but as you onboard
new people, thinking about how you invest the time upfront
to really quickly build a strong connection. And so we
came with this idea of swift, and so swift is
all about setting aside time to dedicate a time to
really have meetings with employees where you don't talk about work,
(34:55):
you talk about things that are important to them outside
of life. You're creating a welcoming environment where they feel
comfortable to speak with you.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
So you're not sitting behind the desk being all rigid.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
You're inquiring about things that matter to them, asking a
lot of questions so you can learn more about who
they are as people and what matters to them and
what motivates them.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
And then you're following up on the things that you learn.
Speaker 5 (35:15):
You're bringing them back up in conversation, asking them about
things that they mentioned. So if they mentioned that, and
their children are extremely important to them, and there are
certain activities, you know, maybe their son is excellent at violin.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
You know, the next time you see that.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
Person saying, you know, how are things going with the
violin with your son? And you know, bringing up things
that you share in common. Little things like that go
a long way. And then finally reflecting, taking time to
think about okay, based on everything that I know about
the people on my team, how can I make my
leadership even better? How can I facilitate creating a motivating
environment or a more connected environment given the information that
(35:49):
I've garnered through these swift meetings.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
I really embrace that too. Of course, there's nothing in
your book that I don't embrace. But you know, remember
years I've taught over the years life so many supervisors
first time that they've managed people, then managers and leaders
and senior leaders. And one of the things I've always
said over the years is just how critical it is
to develop the capacity to really go looking for and
seeing and celebrating your people. There's something so beautiful and
(36:15):
magical when people feel seen, really seen for who they
are and celebrated for it. Not just I tolerate you,
I see you, but you're amazing, you know, I see
how special in the unique human that you are walking
the planet.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
One hundred percent agree.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
Yeah, And you can't really celebrate those things if you
don't know what they are. So asking those kinds of
questions can help you get that information.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
Yeah, I don't think it counts that we can celebrate.
Oh look, you're breathing that's so cool, gat Yeah, agreed. Okay,
this next one is really really near and dear to
my heart, Casina, be elastic. Your way isn't always right.
And the reason I want to start with their situate
that that way is, I know how easy it is
when you're wet. This works really great for me, wonderful.
(37:00):
Not the only meat in the room, especially not on
your full team. So if you could expand on this
generator behavior, be elastic.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
I think a lot of times, particularly for leaders, we
think that what got us to this position is going
to be exactly what gets other people to this position.
And the reality is that different people work in different
ways and both can be where both of your ways
if you're thinking about employee who you're mentoring, can be
equally effective while looking quite different. And we see a
lot of we saw a lot in the extinguisher camp
(37:29):
of leaders being like, do it this way, you need
to do it this way. I worked with someone who
an interview question that they used to ask was you know,
if you found out that a very successful person structured their.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Day this way, what would you do with that information?
Speaker 5 (37:42):
And if you gave the answer in the interview anything
other than I would also structure my day exactly that way.
That was considered a wrong answer in the interview. That's
the sort of thing that we're talking about here. There's
not one way to success, and it's great for you
to share what's helped you get to be where you are,
and maybe that will resonate with other people, But the
expectation that people have to do it exactly the way
(38:02):
that you've done it is really putting people in a
box that's not aligning with their personal preferences and what's
going to make them most successful.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
One hundred percent agree. Now related to that, this is
really fresh for me. I guess I knew this intuitively,
but I've never seen anybody distinguish it this way. You
describe how people approach work either as segmenters or integrators
in terms of how they fit work in life together.
Speaker 5 (38:27):
Yeah, So this is a term that came from the
research and not from our research from other folks with
research that we saw coming up again and again in
our research that seemed to matter for how generators were
managing their employees. So integrators are folks who like to
intersperse work in life activities across the course of the
(38:48):
day that means that their workday is usually longer because
they're taking time out.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
In the middle of the day to do life activities,
and they don't find any.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
Hindrance in switching back and forth between life and work
tests They like it that way.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Segmentors are different.
Speaker 5 (39:06):
Segmentors are people who say, I'm starting my work day
at whatever time, and my work day ends at this time,
and interruptions really throw them. They like to be in
one head space and then shift to another headspace, so
they're much more bothered by sick person in their household
who keeps interrupting them during work time, or a boss
(39:28):
who calls them outside of work hours right that throws
them off much more. Neither of these is better or
worse than the other. They both can be equally productive.
The problem is that people often expect that the way
they would do things is the way that other people
should do things. So an integrator who you know has
spent their day sprinkling in other life activities and then
(39:50):
reaches out to a coworker on their team at six
pm who's a segmentor and says, hey, can we talk
for a few minutes is going to get annoyed when
that person says no, I'm not available, what we can
talk tomorrow morning, right, thinking that they're not maybe as
dedicated or on on the job. The reality is that
person may have put in more time during the day
than that person did, and they're just being good about
setting their boundaries. So a first step or an entry
(40:12):
point into understanding these two ways of operating is to
ask the question, to get a sense of who on
your team operates this way, and then to recognize that
your way is not the best way. So the same
idea of being elastic, right, just because you're an integrator,
segmentor doesn't mean everybody else has to be.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Yeah, I think it's helpful, and I know that I've
I've heard many people have been a little bit surprised
the simple idea of you know, what's the golden world
tretose as you would like to be treated. Except that's
not good enough. You need the platinum rule, which is,
you know, treat others as they wish to be treated.
That's another level of understanding and engagement, so so so
important not to assume just because it works for you,
(40:51):
that you know that will work for them. And I'm
an I'm an integrator, so I can appreciate that, and
I part of my team that are mentors, and I
totally appreciate that and apply that. But I really liked
how crisp it is that you've given me this terminology
to be able to distinguish that. It's just gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Thank you, You're welcome.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
So you mentioned boundaries before, and this next one I
thought was really powerful when it comes to really cultivating
wellness in an organization. The idea of becoming a boundary bouncer.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Yeah, So we were thinking about what's the right imagery
for this, and one of the things that kept coming
up for us was this idea of a bouncer at
a club and there's a velvet rope and you have said,
you know, this is my boundary is this is my
non negotiable. I won't take a work call during my
(41:42):
daughter's soccer practice, right like, I want to be really
present for that. And unfortunately, what we see in a
lot of the stories about extinguishers is that the extinguisher
will say, oh, yeah, no, totally, that makes sense, and
then they'll text or call during that time period and
say I know that you you know said that you
don't like to take calls right now, but you know
it's just going to take a few minutes, or you
know they're they're constantly breaking these boundaries that employees are
(42:05):
asking them to uphold. And so we like the vision
of thinking of yourself standing as a leader with this
velvet rope and your employees are back there and you're
trying to figure out, okay, who gets.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Let through right?
Speaker 5 (42:21):
Who are we going to say is okay to break
these boundaries and being very judicious about that. So let's
say you feel better in your wellness. I know, for me,
my eyes start to hurt if I stare at a
screen for too long, So taking a little screen break
is very helpful for me in being able to continue
to be productive in my day.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So let's say someone has that and they say, you know, I.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
Would love to, you know, be able to get away
from the computer and take a walk every day from
twelve to twelve thirty. And if I could hold that
time sacred on my calendar, it'll make me much more
productive later in the afternoon. The leader would make sure
that other people on the team respect that boundary. If
there's a non urgent or even you know, an urgent
(43:06):
but could be done at a different time that day
meeting that comes across their desk that.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
That employee needs to be in.
Speaker 5 (43:11):
They would make sure that people are not trampling over
that or encourage the employee to hold that time. However,
let's say there's a client call that's happening and the
only time the client can make it is noon on Thursday,
and so for this one time, you might have to
take your walk at one instead of noon. The leader
might say, okay, velvet rope for this one instance. That
(43:31):
can't repeat over and over again, right, but being really
clear about making sure that the default is upholding the boundary.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
You're not really allowed in here.
Speaker 5 (43:41):
This is a VIP area as opposed to the default
being like the velvet ropes open and just run on in.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Yeah. I think that's really really powerful when when people
feel like the leaders protect and them really cares about
their well being, their wellness, and they recognize, you know,
when somebody from another department calls and says, hey, you know,
I really needed to get this report up. Actually know,
they don't let is there I think, is there room
for us? It gets to you tomorrow kind of thing,
exactly right, And I just I think that's just such
(44:07):
a really crisp, fresh perspective, Katina, just really good stuff. Thanks, Yeah,
good stuff. Okay, now let's talk about the next behavior
generator behavior the power of person centered planning.
Speaker 5 (44:20):
Yeah, so this is sort of at the heart of
a lot of things that we talk about in the book,
but we put it at the end because it's one
of the meteor concepts and you kind of need to
work up some of the other skills to be able
to engage in this well. But the idea is that
you're tailoring your approach to the individual employees who are
on your team and trying to avoid blanket solutions. And
(44:44):
what this means is that you're The idea of person
centered planning is a Roseerian idea from the psychology literature,
where you know, it's been used in therapy, where you're
listening to someone with non judgmental, positive regard about what
is important to them, what they'll need to feel in balance,
(45:04):
and you're using these skills of you know, recognizing that
your away is not always the way and building these
swift connections in order to really facilitate a positive process.
But the idea is that the employee feels comfortable sharing
with you, things that are getting in their way of
being productive at work, things that would be really helpful
for them to be productive at work, things that would
(45:25):
be helpful for them in their lives, right to feel
more whole and happy at human beings, and that you're
really listening to and gathering that information and using that
information kind of like a map of how to support
that employee, and then looking across the employees who you
support and understanding what can you do to create an
environment where they're all most likely to thrive. And that
(45:45):
might mean meeting people where they are with certain things,
and that might also mean, like, hey, win for me.
Everybody said that they would love for us to take
a fifteen minute mindfulness break at three pm.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Every day, So we're going to try to do that,
you know.
Speaker 5 (45:59):
So there are certain things that might work for everybody,
and there are certain things that might work only for
one person or two people.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
So trying to.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
Be as much as possible. No world is perfect and
nobody is going to get every single one of their
needs checked off right, But to the extent that you can,
trying to tailor your approach to your team can be
really helpful.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
And again that takes you know that time that we're
just focusing on the person, the relationship development as we
talked about before, all those things that are so important,
and what I want to emphasize here, ladies and gentlemen,
is that the more you incorporate these behaviors into yourself
as a as a as a leader, the more all
your relationships across your life are going to improve. Everybody,
everything is going to get better when you when you
(46:41):
incorporate this this across your life. So it's just beautiful,
goes that ripple effect we were talking about before. So
we're coming to the end of the show, and you
did have a you have a chapter here on you know,
leaders embracing the idea of eliminating mental health stigma, which
we don't have time to go into, but I want
to situate that is also an important thing that they
got to take a stand for that to really make
this work well. And then also, you know, as you
(47:04):
incorporate and start to embrace these behaviors, especially in an
organization that doesn't naturally have them, you're going to get
back last and you're going to get pushed back. So
Katina and Patricia have some great stuff in there in
their book, and I'm sure on their podcast and in
their consulting to help you with that navigate those waters.
So I just want to situate that we want to
round this up as we recognize that you becoming this
(47:27):
human being that we're talking about encouraging you to become,
you will face resistance from those who don't understand it
and who haven't quite gotten there yet.
Speaker 5 (47:35):
Absolutely, yeah, and we do provide some strategies for navigating
what if you're housed in a toxic work culture, or
what if you don't have a lot of champions that
think that this is a good idea, or what if
you're getting burntout trying to, you know, tailor these solutions
to everybody on the team and you're feeling like it's
(47:55):
taking a lot of your time and energy.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
How can you streamline things and how can you replenish
your own energy?
Speaker 4 (48:00):
It's greatness. Well, as you can see, I'm a fan.
I'm certainly happy to evangelize this and I'm so happy
to meet you, Katina. I'm so grateful that this all
worked out that you and I got to meet us.
So I look forward to meeting Patricia as well. Yes,
I think you probably know by now that this show
is listened to, why people around the world who really
are either trying to cultivate their own leadership, acumen, prowess,
(48:21):
or they're trying to learn how to become better in
their own career, or maybe even their leaders that are
trying to create those organizations that better the world. What
would you like to leave them with?
Speaker 5 (48:32):
Yeah, I think that if we could summarize things in
one sentence, it would be that wellness is not a
program or a band aid. Wellness is about the day
to day experiences that your employees have. So if you
really think about how to cultivate positive and uplifting and
supportive day to day experiences that match people's wellness needs,
(48:52):
you're going to do a lot better than throwing spaghetti
at the wall with a wellness budget and putting a
bunch of programs in place that you're not sure why
it's going to stick.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
Beautiful way to finish, Katina not surprised, all right, So listener,
thank you so much for being on Katina.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
It's just real life.
Speaker 4 (49:08):
It's a great, wonderful surprise that we that I got
to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Awesome, all right.
Speaker 4 (49:12):
So listeners and viewers, you are going to want to
learn more about Katina Sawyer and also her co author,
doctor Patricia Grayberick, their podcast The work they do at
worker Being, So start by visiting their website. It's worker being.
Let me spell it for you because it's a little
bit of a different spelling on both. Worker is w
O r k R no E being b e I
(49:33):
G two to to b e ing dot com so
workerbeing dot com. Last week, if you missed the live show,
you can always catch a via recorded podcast. We were
on air with Taniel Miller talking about her book The
Flourishing Effect, Unlocking Employee thriving and high Performance as your
competitive Advantage. It was an incredibly educational and inspiring conversation.
One important thing I took from more conversation is that
(49:55):
in a time when seventy percent of the workforce is disengaged,
to neil help us understand that people don't choose to
disengage from work, deciding to wake up and spend most
of their day in a state of boredom, frustration and anxiety,
stress and alienation just to earn a paycheck. Rather, disengagement
is a coping mechanism any healthy human would employ to
(50:16):
avoid the cognitive dissonance or mental discomfort of having to
function in an environment where they find themselves unsafe, stifled,
or in an otherwise warped experience of reality. In other words,
there is so much we can do to create environments
and work experiences to help people thrive at work that
are not present today in most workplaces. Next, we will
(50:36):
be on air with Robert Bordoni and Joel Salinez talking
about their powerful new book, Conflict Resilience, Negotiating disagreement without
giving up or giving in a toolkit for coming together
in a conflicted world. See you then, and remember work
as one of the best adventures and means of realizing
our potential and making the impact we crave and can
give us the opportunity to do business in a way
(50:58):
that betters the world. So let's Work on Purpose.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance,
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there, let's work on purpose.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!