October 7, 2025 • 50 mins
In a time of unprecedented change at work—remote teams, burnout, shifting values—one timeless force continues to drive engagement and performance: meaning. In this episode, we explore how leaders can activate meaning as the powerful engine behind both fulfillment and results. Discover three key aspects of meaning: building community, spotlighting contributions, and inspiring continuous challenge and growth to take your team to new heights in today’s times. Guest: Wes Adams
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Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People
ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their
talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave
being part of an organization that inspires them and helps
them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be
such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.
In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help
(00:53):
usher in this world we all want Working on Purpose. Now,
here's your host, doctor Elise Cortez.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passionate and pride since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week. Great
to have you. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortes. If
we've not met before and you don't know me, I'm
a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapists, speaker,
and author. My team and I at Gusta Now help
companies to unlive it and fortify their operations by building
(01:25):
a dynamic, high performance culture, inspirational leadership, and nurturing managers
activated by meaning and purpose. Many organizations are not aware
of how critical it is to invest in developing their
leaders and managers not just for their own effectiveness, but
also to avoid burnout and keep them fulfilled, and also
that they can measure and monitor the purpose experience in
their organizations to keep it working as an operational imperative.
(01:47):
So much you can do with meaning and purpose. Did
you know that inspired employees in purpose led organizations outperform
their satisfied peers by a factor of two point twenty
five to one. In other words, inspiration is good for
the bottom line. You can learn more about us and
how we can work together at gusto dashnow dot com
or my personal site at Leisquortes dot com. Getting into
(02:08):
today's program, we had with us Wes Adams, the founder
and CEO of SV Consulting Group. He helps leading companies
build organizational resilience, develop leadership excellence, and draw out peak
performance through a meaning Work lens. He's a co author
of the book Meaningful Work, How to Ignite Passion and
Performance in Every Employee, which we'll be talking about today. Wes,
welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Thanks so much, Elise. Great to be here.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
Thank you, You're so welcome.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Look at this gorgeous thing that you put into the world.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Isn't that gorgeous?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
It's exciting to see it.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
Yeah, a lot of work went into it. My co
author Tamora and I spent a number of years doing
the research for it, and it's pretty crazy to see
it out in the world.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
I understand.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
I really appreciate that, and I know since you're a
gent I can be confident in telling you what you
did there is harder than bringing a baby into the both,
so just so you know, harder than childbirth.
Speaker 6 (03:03):
I appreciate that and that you can say it and
I can't know.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I know where it is together with Well, let's talk
about how this book came together, how you and Tomorrow
Miles brought this thing together, how you met, Why is
the book and its message important to you?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Absolutely?
Speaker 6 (03:20):
So, Tomorrow and I actually met in grad school. We
both have a master's of Applied Positive Psychology from University
of Pennsylvania. We studied with Martin Martin Seligman, who is
known as the father of positive psychology. And you know,
we had come there for kind of slightly different reasons,
but we had the same goal. I had been working
(03:42):
for a number of years in the social enterprise space,
and when I first started working in the space, I
think I somewhat naively thought that, oh, because you know,
these are mission driven or purpose driven organizations, they're naturally
going to be amazing places to work because everybody's got
the same.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Goal in mind, and we're all going to hold hands
and you know, march forward together.
Speaker 6 (04:04):
And you know, there are certainly some great organizations that
I had experiences with, but what I learned was that
not all of them were great places to work. And
this idea of having a mission or having a purpose
wasn't enough to create an amazing place to work. And
so I got really interested in organizational psychology and started
reading Adam Grant and you know, all all of the
(04:27):
other stuff, and that eventually led me to PEN because
I was really interested in understanding, like, could you deconstruct
how to create an amazing workplace? What were the leadership
practices and organizational structures that would help people thrive, help
people do their best work?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And so that's what that's what kicked all of this off.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Well, as I said before we got on air, we
are two piece or three piece in a pod, right,
the three of us are really working from we're singing
from the same sheet of music here and very much
echo and really applaud what you've written and created together.
And I really align with how you talk about meaning.
Was what really powers high performance and well being at work?
It's the sun, soil and space that makes our gardens grow.
(05:13):
I think that's a powerful way to think about meaning.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, it's what we found.
Speaker 6 (05:20):
You know, there's several decades of research on meaning at
work and the impact that it has, and it's really
the upstream factor that drives all of the outcomes that
we're looking for individually. It drives job satisfaction, engagement, well
being and at the team and organizational level things like innovation, productivity.
(05:40):
There's even great new research from Oxford showing it drives
profitability and stock price. So it's really something it's not
a nice to have, you know. The idea of meaning
can sound a little soft sometimes, but it's actually a
business imperative, especially as we're moving into a world where
our core human and skills are going to be the
(06:01):
most valuable. As you know, things like AI are taking
over some of the more repetitive things. So we see
it as really something you've got to be investing in.
And so that's why we wrote the book because we're
particularly interested in understanding how leaders help people find meeting.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
We're going to get.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Into the more of the details listeners and viewers as
to what we mean by meaning as we go along here,
But I do want to say just a bit more
about just the business case for this. You've said lots
of the areas that when we really work on making
work more meaningful impact, but just a couple of things
that stood out for me from your book is just
crazy things like employees who report higher levels of meaning
(06:43):
at work are sixty four percent more fulfilled, four and
a half times more engaged, sixty nine percent less likely
to quit. I mean, these are significant factors if we
can numbers here, and so I think it's really important
that we position for our listeners and viewers just the
critical out because I think a lot of people think
that meaning and the work that I also do in
purpose can be a little bit Mushy's And you also
(07:05):
talk about being able to measure the impact of meaning
as well. So I just want to if you have
any other stats that you want to throw out here
that really help bring it home for our listeners and
viewers sys to why they should pay attention to this
and embrace it as an imperative.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
That's a great question.
Speaker 6 (07:20):
I should probably have more statistics in my head, but
you know, I will say, like you, I'm you know,
my primary job is I'm a consultant. I do leadership
development and organizational design work with a range of companies,
and so I'm actively teaching these practices and helping companies
implement these structures, and I can tell you that it
(07:42):
has a huge impact on the business, on the company's
ability to grow, to perform, to deliver the bottom line.
So you know, it continues to play out again and again,
how much these practices benefit organizations.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Well, let me throw out another one that I have
seen several times over and over again that I'll bet
will be very surprising and interesting to our listeners and viewers.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
And that is that you say.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
In a recent study, nine out of ten workers stated
that meaning at work is so important that they would
that they would take a more meaningful job elsewhere, even
if it paid less. These workers are willing to give
up almost one quarter of their lifetime earnings for work
that is more meaningful. That is, if that is not
sobering to listeners and viewers, it doesn't have your attention,
(08:29):
you know. In other words, whatever you invest in helping
making work more meaningful, you have an immediate payoff people
sticking around. So I just wanted to be able to
service a few more of those really meeting numbers for
our listeners viewers that are given more to the quantitative
aspects of this stuff. I appreciate that absolutely. So you
mentioned the importance of what leaders do. I want to
(08:50):
go there next, Wes, you talk about nearly fifty percent
of an employee's experience of meaning at work is tied
to what leaders do or fail to do. You say
a bit more about.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
That yeah, I think that's a really important finding. So
one of the things that Tomorrow and I found when
we started doing research on this topic was there's a
lot available around how do I find a more meaningful
job or what can I do to craft my job
and find more meaningful work, and there was very little
(09:22):
available for leaders who wanted to help people find meaning
in their jobs. And I think also this idea that
you know, meaning is reserved for people who work in
nonprofits or in healthcare or that sort of thing, and so,
you know, we really wanted to dig into that. And
so what we found, you know, over several years of
doing this research and you know, doing quantitative studies to
(09:46):
understand the impact of these behaviors on people's sense of
meaning and other outcomes like job satisfaction, retention, those sorts
of things, was that these behaviors that we identified account
for about how off of how meaningful people find their jobs.
And that's enormous, you know, that is a that is
an incredible responsibility that leaders have and also a huge opportunity,
(10:11):
what an incredible leverage point, you know, if we know
that meaning is the upstream factor that drives all of
these things that we want leaders have a huge potential
impact on that if they're employing these practices and you know,
thinking about how they're actively investing in these things. And
I think the other thing that we found was that
(10:32):
you know, people in every job, every day can experience meaning,
especially when leaders are employing these practices. You know, your
job doesn't have to be your life's calling for your
worth to for your work to feel worthwhile. You know,
these moments of meaning can happen in every job. And
you know, we talk to people who are you know, hairstylists, janitors,
(10:53):
you know, people working in data centers who found their
jobs incredibly meaningful. And so I think that bodes well
for all of us. You know that we can get
more than just a paycheck out of our jobs, whatever
that is.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
For my PAGDA study team and development and I research
for my dissertation how meaning is experienced by people actually
it managers back then, how to related to their sense
of self? And then I did a big postoc research
back in twenty fourteen, and I found these fifteen modes
of engagement when I looked at the levels in kind,
the depth and quality of the meaning and its relationship
(11:32):
to their person and so yes, the same thing. I
also researched many different kinds of individuals, and the richness
that's available around how people experience and express what's meaningful
is just dazzling, and it's there. There's an opportunity to
your point, and that's why I also, as a fellow consultant,
really love getting to support leaders because this is not
(11:56):
super hard, but it maybe isn't super obvious to be
able to help ste does this meaning journey?
Speaker 6 (12:03):
Yeah, I well, first of all, I'm really interested in
that research, so I'd.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Love for you to send it to me after and
I think I might swap what you just said.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
I think actually a lot of these practices are a
little bit more obvious than you might think.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
But they're not easy. They're not easy to remember to
do every day.
Speaker 6 (12:25):
They're not easy to implement, especially when we're too busy,
when we're not in the same room, you know, when
we're faced with all of this change. You know, I
think one of the things that surprised us when we
were doing this research was that, you know, I think
I think we were kind of thinking, Oh, we're going
to come up with these groundbreaking behaviors and structures that
(12:48):
no one's ever found before and unlock the secret to
creating meaning at work. And actually, you know a lot
of them are very time tested behaviors leadership practices. I
don't know that they've all necessarily been collected in one
place before, but.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
You know, none of them were sort of.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
As groundbreaking as we had expected, I think, with the
exception of the importance of recruiting and onboarding and how
you handle that process and the impact that it has
throughout the life of your relationship with an employee. But
otherwise I think they're you know, a lot of them
are time tested, and they're very hard to do well,
(13:31):
to do consistently and intentionally.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
So I want to situate kind of going back to
what we were talking about what leaders can do to
be able to make work more meaningful. And one of
the things I think makes your work so powerful and compelling, Wes,
is that you've really isolated into really three main buckets,
three c's, if you will. And so you go on
to say that leaders who build community, help people understand
(13:57):
their contributions matter and challenge them, and opportunities to learn
and grow foster meaning for everyone on their team. So
it's that whole thing of community, contribution, challenge that I
think really makes your work so compelling and I think
helps maybe everyone be able to better access what we
mean by this squishy thing called how do we make
(14:17):
work more meaningful?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, let's dive into those.
Speaker 6 (14:21):
So the three seas of meaning, the three sources of meaning, community, contribution,
and challenge. As you mentioned, So, community is this sense
that you belong, that you can show up authentically, bring
your full self and your full ideas to the table.
Contribution is understanding how you are positively impacting other people,
(14:42):
whether that's clients or coworkers, or how your work is
laddering up to a larger organizational goal. And finally challenges
that individual opportunity to learn and grow. How are you
becoming the best version of yourself and seeking their full potential.
What we found was that, you know, there's a multiplier
(15:04):
effect that happens here, so you know, they kind of
play off of each other. Sometimes some of these practices,
you know, fit in a couple of those buckets, and
also if one of them is missing, it can cancel
out the other two. So going back to this idea
of you know, some of the social enterprises or nonprofits
that you know I've been a part of that haven't
(15:24):
been such great places to work? Well it might it
might have been high in contribution, but one of those
other seas could have been missing.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Beautiful way to summarize what you're at the heart of
what you've created here together and let's rub our first
break here. We have been on air with Wes Adams
talking about his new book that he's put out into
the word Heal and he's the author of Meaningful Work.
He's the founder and CEO of c ME Consulting Group.
We have been talking so far about why, what's the
(15:52):
business case for being able to make work more meaningful
and getting into the heart of their their core research
around the three SE's. After the break, we're going to
situate the importance of aligning values to behavior is one
of these aspects to drive an organization forward. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a Lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(16:45):
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with a Lease, send an email
to a lease a Lisee at a lascortes dot com.
(17:08):
Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor release Cortes, as I too,
am dedicated to help and create a world where organizations
thrive because they're people thrive and they're led by inspirational
leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness. And
we do business at Betters to the Worlds. I keep
researching and writing my own books. So one of my
latest came out. It's called The Great Revitalization, How activating
(17:35):
a Median Purpose can radically enliven your business. And it's
similar to Wes and Tomorrow's book and that it really
is designed to help readers understand the lay of today's
discerning workforce. What do they want to need to stay
engaged and give their best? And then I offer you
twenty two best practices to help equip you in your
(17:55):
culture to provide that for them. You can find my
books on Amazon or my personal at least quretes dot com.
So coming back into the conversation here, so we can
orient our view our listeners and viewers here, West, I
just want to remind and maybe do us a quick
summary here that you define meaningful work as work that
provides community, helps us contribute to something that matters, and
(18:18):
challenging us, challenges us to learn and grow. And so
what you said just before the break, I think is
that we really need all three of those components for
it to registers meaningful.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yes, no, kind of absolutely, yeah, all three are important. Cool. Cool.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
So I do want to talk about this idea of alignment.
It's something that we also measure when it comes to
purpose and values as well. And I think that the
way you talk about aligning values to behavior and certainly
how leaders can can model that is so so critical.
Speaker 6 (18:47):
Absolutely, so this was an interesting finding from our research,
and that's this idea that you know, you have to
walk your talk right, you know, you have to be
a good role model for organizational value. And it was
really this idea of alignment between behavior and spoken values
was really a prerequisite for meaningful work, So it was
(19:09):
sort of it precedes the three c's. It was a
necessary but not sufficient part of the equation here. It
didn't really add much when people were aligned, but it
was the quickest way to destroy meaning was to not
be aligned. And so you know, very often we throw
our values up on the wall transparency, you know, trust,
(19:32):
teamwork and things like that, and people look to leaders
to their behavior to understand whether those things really matter right,
what are the real values, what's the real culture of
the organization, And if we're saying one thing and doing another,
it really breaks trust in a way that's hard to
recover from.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
I actually had someone talk to me some years ago
when she found out what we did here at our company,
and she went on to share experience and where she
had worked for it was a firefighting organization, and she said,
you know, it was so demoralizing because she said the
leaders actually acted in direct opposition to the values, and
dragging myself to work every day felt like I was
(20:15):
crucifying myself every day. So back to what I was
saying on my own research, part of what the reason
there are fifteen modes of engagement. Is that we look
at both the positive and negative balance of meaning. In
that case, that's a negative contribution to meaning, and it
can be incredibly destructive to the souls of the organization
that you're depending on to power your mission. So it
(20:36):
just really wanted to bring that home just how devastating
it can be when leaders are literally or anyone in
the organization, especially the leaders are acting in opposition to
those stated values.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
This is one of the biggest complaints I hear when
I start a project with a client and do discovery
work and start talking to people on the ground, this
is one of the first things that comes up is, Oh,
you know, leaders here say this, but actually this is
how it really works, and it's very hard to navigate
through that to get to the important work that needs
(21:08):
to happen, you know, to move an organization forward.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Yeah, indeed, well we have some. You have many great
examples in the book. I love all of your examples
and the people that you cite, and I definitely want
to celebrate our dear Bob Chapman at Barry Way Miller.
He is a dear colleague of mine, not colleague. I
consider him. I say that I'm one of his followers, right.
I believe in his leadership discipline. He's been on my
(21:34):
podcast a couple of times, He's written testimonies for a.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Couple of my books.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
I really believe in him his leadership philosophy. So let's
talk about just what that looks like when we are
a leader like Bob Chapman was going through back in
the financial crisis, what in two thousand and eight, two
thousand and nine, and was really faced with some difficult
situations that They're a manufacturing company located I think in
Saint Louis, and he went back and said, let's look
(22:01):
at our values here, how do we get through this together?
So can you paint a little bit of that picture.
I'll add in some details that I remember from your
book that I think are really compelling.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
Absolutely, you know, it was a very difficult time the
financial crisis, I think, if I'm remembering correctly, their business
took a huge dive, you know, in from one year
to the next, and they were faced with a situation
where they weren't going to be able to make it
and unless they reduce costs in a pretty significant way.
(22:31):
And so normally what organizations do in that situation is
they lay off a chunk of the workforce and you know,
save on those costs. And you know, Bob had been
and the leadership team for several years before that, had
really been invested in the these values of the organization
(22:53):
talking about these values, living these values, and so you know,
this was a in a crisis moment. I think that's
when that does matter most, Right, are you do the
work when it gets hard? You know, it's easy to
be aligned with your values when things are going well.
And so you know, I think he and the senior
leadership team really took a step back and looked at
(23:18):
I believe their value was you know, uh, you know
this idea of working as a family. What would a
family do? Yes, And they really thought about, well, what,
you know, a lot of these folks were also going
to be in hard times. You know, if they had
lost their jobs. It was you know, tough financial situation
for everyone. And so what they decided to do instead
(23:39):
of laying people off was a series of furloughs. So
people would get a couple of weeks furloughed and that
would rotate throughout the year so that no one had
to lose their job. Everyone would make a little bit less,
but everyone would keep their job. Everyone be able to
navigate through this situation, and some people in the organization
(24:01):
actually put their hand up for double furloughs so that
people who really needed the money or you know, had
families that were struggling, could you know, keep their full
paychecks and that sort of thing. And I believe he
also halted four oh one K matches with the tend
to repay them, you know, when he could, and they
(24:22):
navigated that year of the financial crisis, and I think
they came back stronger than ever and within a year
or eighteen months, you know, people were back full time.
They had paid back all of the four oh one
K contributions that they had held back, and you know,
it was really a testament to what happens when you
live your values in the long term impact that that
(24:44):
has on the organization.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yeah, let me add just a few more details to that,
because I think this is really really powerful listeners and
viewers think about the impact of what this would have
on your organization if you had, if you really lived
the values like this. So in addition, Bob took a
major pay cut self. He he went from one eight
hundred and seventy five thousand a year to ten thousand,
five hundred dollars that year.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Talk about walking the talk.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Talk about walking the talk, and he did put the
bonuses in four one K matches on hold, and specifically,
I want to I want to make sure that y'all
understand how this furlough works. And so he asked all
their associates to take an unpaid four week furlough to
distribute the impact equally. And to your point, Wes, some
of those people said, Hey, Jane needs more of an
income right now with her three kids or whatever than
(25:28):
I do. I'll take double furlow kind of thing. So
think about what that does. Together, and Bob and doctor
Roschasodi have co written a book called Everybody Matters and
that is again walking the talk. And I just if
you think about what does this do? Boy, how many
people would you know? Almost I don't want I'm not
going to say that what I was about to say,
(25:49):
because in these political times it could be really really charged,
but you know, really give them themselves over for this
company because they believe they were there in the hard time.
So I just really want to say, situay This is
really unusual behavior, but it's also incredibly distinguished. Bob speaks
all over the world, and people seek his counsel because
they see how successful they have been over the years.
(26:12):
They don't talk about headcounts in their company, they talk
about heart count. I mean, it's just it's really, really
a beautiful example of truly walking talk.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I love that.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
Yeah, it's really incredible to see what happens when you
are willing to invest in this stuff and walk your talk,
especially in the long term. You know, I think we
have a lot of short term pressures on organizations these days,
and you know, those those decisions. I mean just the
research on laying people off and the impact that that
(26:45):
has on an organization.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I was reading.
Speaker 6 (26:48):
I'm forgetting who the researcher was, but you know, they
can measure the negative impacts of that three years and
further beyond an organization. It hurts the organization's reputation, It
hurts that sense of teamwork and collaboration in ways that's
really difficult to recover from.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Indeed, and on that note, I did want to go
into how you offer some ways that leaders can cultivate connection.
I thought that your ideas about shared experiences were really
really interesting. The portfolio approach you talk about in the
book was really interesting, and I think it's really critical
that when we talk about shared experiences, a lot of
(27:26):
people immediately when you think about the lower hanging fruit,
they are like, oh, yeah, let's have a pizza party,
let's do you know, let's do a happy hour or whatever.
And you distinguish some more when you add in the
challenge piece of that, a shared challenge. How much more
meaningful that is than a nice mix of those activities
can really make a difference to cultivating that connection. If
(27:50):
you could see a bit more about these ways that
leaders and organizations can cultivate shared experiences and also that
portfolio approach.
Speaker 6 (27:59):
Yeah, so doing things together is a great way to
build authentic relationships with each other. And one of the
things that we talk about in the book is as
leaders creating a portfolio of shared experiences along two axes,
that a difficulty axis.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And also a purpose access.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
So you know, in one part of this matrix you
would have you know, kind of lower difficulty, lower purpose
activities and that could look like you know, something we
talk about in the book, which is the Swedish practice
of FIKA, which is basically just having a coffee break together,
synchronizing coffee breaks across the organization, which you know, just
(28:42):
means that people happen to be free at the same time.
They bump into each other, they chat, they have a
chance to you know, get to know each other a
little bit. And that's actually there's research on it been
a very powerful way to build connection and even collaboration
across functions and that sort of thing. And then you
can get into higher difficulty, higher purpose experiences like we're
(29:07):
going to go do a volunteering today day together at
the local soup kitchen or whatever that is. That takes
a lot more time. It's a little bit more difficult
to do that sort of thing. And what we want
is sort of a range of experiences across the spectrum,
so that we're varying, you know, opportunities for different types
(29:27):
of people, and we're creating all of these different entry
points for folks across that portfolio.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
And one of the things.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Too that I appreciate about that, and you do talk
about in the book as well, and I've also written
about it and spoken about it, is, you know, if
you want people to come together and there's a lot
there's it makes more sense for people to come together
when they are learning together, they're trying to connect together,
and when you do ask them to come together, essentially,
you do need to need to be able to earn
(29:56):
that commute, to earn the effort, the resources it takes
for them to get there. And I think some of this,
this idea of a portfoli of experience, really helps situate
for leaders how you can make these things compelling and
really meaningful and meaning for people. So I just really
want to celebrate how you've situated those opportunities for organizations.
Speaker 6 (30:16):
I appreciate that, and I think we could probably do
a whole episode on how the psychological contract of showing
up at work has changed, no doubt significantly, And I
think there's this new capability that's needed within organizations, which
is thinking about how to organize people when they come
into the office. How are you thinking about that like
an event planner, an experiential marketer. You know, there's no
(30:40):
reason to come into the office to be on zoom
calls all day or teams calls all day.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I can do that from home.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
How are you creating opportunities for us to connect for
us to collaborate, be creative, brainstorm, have inspirational connection with
each other. That's what we need to do when we're
in person.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Well, on that note, I also wanted to call out
and embrace the idea that you have in your book
about about embracing authenticity and doing it in a way
through personal storytelling and which allows people to also summon
their higher emotions. I'm a big fan of Barbara Fredrickson,
and I really love the idea of being able to
encourage people to share their personal stories what matters to them.
(31:22):
And what I love about this in aligns with what
I'm also doing too west on some of my newer
offerings is it allows them when they are able to
bring in their full selves and share what matter to
them that we are now building through their positive emotions
such as joy and gratitude and curiosity, which she expands
our thinking and prompts us to explore new possibilities and ideas,
(31:44):
and that is connective and sticky, and there's just so
much richness and what you can create from and innovate
from that sort of an experience point.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
Absolutely, and I think you know a huge fan of
Barbara Frederickson. She was one of my professors, and J.
Dutton's work on high quality connections also just the even
very brief interactions with people that elicit those positive emotions
are hugely powerful and connecting us to each other.
Speaker 7 (32:13):
You and I can probably keep out all day, absolutely,
but let's grab our last break here. I'm your host,
doctor release Cortes. I'm on that area with Wes Adams.
He's the founder and CEO of SV Consulting Group. He
helps leading companies build organizational resilience, develop leadership excellence, and
draw and draw out peak performance through a meaningful work lens.
(32:35):
We've been talking a bit about more of the concepts
of how leaders can cultivate this sense of meeting and organizations.
After the break, we're going to continue the conversation and
talk about how we can start that whole process right
from the beginning when we hire people.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(33:26):
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise A.
LISEE at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Thanks for staying with us to welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Relise Cortez. As you
know by now, the program is dedicated to empowering and
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.
You will learn more about how we can work together
and learn about the gusto Now Academy for leaders and
individuals on various journeys alike. Make your way to gustodesh
now dot com and then go to the training tab
(34:16):
and you'll find the academy there if you are just
joining us. My guest is Wes Adams. He's the co
author of Meaningful Work, How to Ignite Passion and Performance
in Every Employee. So you had mentioned this before when
we were speaking in the first segment here, but this
notion of how we can even start this whole meeting
journey before we even bring people into our organization by
(34:37):
hiring through values. And I think this is really really
powerful if you could speak a bit about the idea
of the values interview, their values journey and how it
shows up in their work. This is not something I've
heard too many people talk about.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
This was really fascinating to us when we found it
in the research. And what we learned was that even
just talking about an organization's values in the recruiting process
in someone's interview had an impact on the meaning that
they felt later in their career, even years later, right,
(35:11):
there was a measurable impact there. And so this practice
first of all of talking about values, of being asked
about your own values and understanding what the organization believes
in and how they operate and what the culture is.
You know, our theory on that is first of all,
it signals that this is a place where you know,
(35:32):
we behave in line with our values.
Speaker 6 (35:34):
And second of all, it allows people to self select
in you know, it's it helps build that alignment between
you know, my personal values and the organizational values of
the company.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
That I'm interviewing with.
Speaker 6 (35:47):
And you know, there are a couple organizations that we
talk about, Zappos, I think being one of them, that's
pretty well known for their values interview, which is a
behavioral interview that's really around alignment with Zappo's values. And
so there's a whole separate interview that's just about values alignment,
(36:12):
or I guess I should say values add because one
of the important distinctions here is we don't want people
who think exactly like us. We want people who share
the same values but are still willing to challenge us
on how those live in the world. And so, you know,
they have an interview and they rate people on the
values according to you a very specific scale, and that
(36:35):
trumps all of the other interviews. So even if you
have a very high quality candidate, if you're desperate for
a new engineer and this person went to MIT and
they have all the qualifications, if they don't pass the
values interview, they don't make it in. And so they
really walk their talk in that way, which I think
is powerful, and it means that people that make it
(36:57):
into the organization are really going to feel an increased
sense of belonging because they know everyone else is aligned
on those things.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
Very powerful.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
And one of the things that we do is when
we when we help when people understand their own individual
values and they can align them with and through that
of the organizational purpose. Now it's it's really powerful. It's
really that's what's what allows them to feel amplified by
being part of the organization. So the values piece is
really really important, and I don't see too many organizations
doing that work upfront. Like you're talking about, let's talk
(37:31):
a little bit about feedback. I have I work with
several different leaders right now. I'm amazed by several of
them who have said just recently to me as we
talk a little bit about appreciation, and I such an
who almost literally said the exact same phrase to me,
I think people should be if they're doing their job.
I don't think I need to say thank you or
(37:54):
show appreciation because that's what I expect of them.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
And I.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
That they're The research is overwhelming to the contrary, right,
And so you go on to say that, you know,
one study found that participants who were asked to give
positive feedbacks typically underestimated how much it would matter to
the person receiving it. And also how surprised the recipients
would be to hear it. Participants assume their gratitude would
be more obvious and less meaningful to the recipient that
(38:22):
it actually was.
Speaker 6 (38:24):
Yeah, this is I have also heard people say that
many times. Why should I thank somebody for doing their job?
They're just meeting expectations. Uh, and yeah, it's it's pretty
mind blowing sometimes going into an organization and hearing that
people haven't been thanked ever, you know, or recognized ever
(38:49):
for the work that they're doing, or it's been months
or years since they've heard something like that from a manager,
and you know, I think the there's there's recent research
from Gallup and work Human showing that one thank you
once a week cuts from a manager cuts disengagement and
burnout in half. That's one thank you once a week
(39:09):
from a manager, and less than forty percent of the
people in that study felt adequately recognized for their work. Right,
So this is a huge This is one thing I'm
very passionate about. It's a huge leverage point and it's
one of the most underused leadership tools out there. You know,
just saying thank you or good job on a regular
basis incredibly powerful to let people know that their work matters,
(39:34):
to show them that they have a valuable contribution to
the organization, and even better if we can be specific
about that. So we talk about feedback model, the best
model for positive feedback in the book, that's behavioral, explicit
strengths based and timely. And we want to call out
(39:55):
exactly what was the thing that you did that I'm appreciating,
What was the impact of that had? Can we be
explicit about that, what's the strength that I see in you?
And we always want to do that as soon as
possible after you know, that event happened, and so that
would be you know.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
A lease.
Speaker 6 (40:14):
I really appreciated that you followed up earlier today to
make sure that I felt prepared for the podcast. You know,
it really made me feel comfortable coming in and it
showed a lot of you know, consideration on your part,
and so thank you for doing that right And so
now you've known, you know, first of all that you
(40:35):
know what you did was appreciated and it wasn't wasted time.
And second of all, you're going to be much more
likely to do that again because you know that that's
a valued behavior. And so you know, one of the
one of my biggest learnings, you know, studying positive psychology
is it's much more powerful to help identify what people
are doing well and double down on those things. It's
(40:58):
just to focus on what people are getting wrong.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
No, no doubt, one hundred percent alignment on that. A
lot of listeners and yours don't understand. And I learned
this in my years and that I continue continue to
measure and improve employee engagement. But there's there's a couple
of really standard value what I want to say, values
or whatever that people really care about when it comes
(41:23):
to engagement. One is the value being valued and appreciated,
which we're talking about. That's one of the strongest indicators
or factors that drive employee engagement. Another one is learning
and development. Of course, there's also the connection to the
manager that we've been talking about through this whole time.
So I want to go to that learning and development piece,
but I want to do it specifically through your lens
that you talk about in your book about creating meaning
(41:45):
through challenge. Now you wouldn't know this, but one of
my three master's degrees is a master well three just three, yes,
three three masters.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
My mother kept saying, when are you going to stop
going to school? I'd be like, wep never, and that
would give her like a small series of many heart attacks.
But it's it's called it. It's a it's a diplomat
in logo philosophy. That is doctor Victor Frankel's existential psychology work.
Of course that so I know he's worked very well,
and so I really want to situate what you have
in your book about how you put forth. For those
(42:19):
of you who don't know who he is, he's a
He was an Austrian psychiatrist, holocaust survivor, and the author
of many, many different.
Speaker 5 (42:28):
Works of book works books.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
But he put forth the idea that what people, when
he says, man, what people actually really need is not
a tensionless state, but rather the striving and struggling for
some goal worthy of them. What this, what people need
is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but
the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled
(42:51):
by them. And so the opportunity is that it is
just that right to be able to fill that bucket,
to elicit that that reach, and that that difficult do.
That is what brings out the best in people. So
if you could speak a little bit about creating meaning
through challenge.
Speaker 6 (43:07):
First of all, A huge fan of Victor Frankel, and
I have that quote in several of the workshops. I
t we're aligned there, and I'll say, just to frame things,
one of the first things that I do when I'm
giving a presentation on meaning or doing a workshop that
involves some of these practices is ask people to think
(43:31):
about a time that was especially meaningful to them, a
time at work that they feel really proud of or
that's really stuck with them. That's powerful. And I would
say more than eighty percent of the time, people don't
talk about things that were easy. They talked about Man,
there was this thing that was really hard. I didn't
think I could do it. It was a real struggle,
(43:53):
but our team banded together. I pushed myself beyond my
capabilities in a way that you know, I was sure
was possible, and we came out the other side and
we did it. And in the moment you know that
I think this is this is where this idea that
people should be happy at work sometimes conflicts with this
(44:13):
idea of meaning. Right, you know, we're not going to
be happy all the time. We can't expect to be
happy all the time. But that struggle is what allows
us to grow and to learn and to get better.
There is no growth without struggle, without pushing ourselves beyond
the bounds of what we can already do. And that's
that's a really important part of being human. And so
(44:36):
we want to Very few of us want to sit
in the same job, doing the same thing for the
next forty years. We want to progress, we want to
move up, we want to do more difficult things. We
want to expand, and you know, we have to provide
people the opportunity to do that. If you know, we
want them to experience meaning and if we want to
(44:57):
get their best work out of them, we have to
give them a true projectory and to do it.
Speaker 5 (45:02):
So I like how you situate.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
You want to meaningfully challenge them but also support them
along the way. Don't just throw them into the deep
en and say so I'm to the other side. You know,
you're challenging it while also supporting them. I think that's
really really important. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (45:15):
Bob Quinn, who's you know from Michigan, one of the
founders of the Center for Positive Organizations there uses the
analogy It's like a leader has one hand on your
back pushing you forward and another under your arm helping
you navigate yes terrain, And we found that's really important.
You you need high expectations.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
You want to.
Speaker 6 (45:37):
Push people outside of their comfort zone to give them
stretch assignments, to give them opportunities to grow. And you
need to support them through that, not just push them
out of the nest and hope they fly, but actually
give them the tools, the resources, the coaching that they
need to find their way forward.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
And I did want to finish on that note.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
Wes, this idea the zone of possibilities you call in
the last chapter of your book, and setting high expectation
for all to lean into, and what I want to
situate here. I do like how you draw on the
Pygmalion effect, But which is really all about is putting
forth the expectation that one manager's believe in the potential
of their people. They're not expecting them just to deliver
(46:20):
the least amount, to be able to do their work
at all. And that that nineteen word phrase that you
talk about in the book, I'll have to find it here.
I've got it in my notes.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
That really is feedback imagining.
Speaker 6 (46:32):
Yeah, I'm giving you this feedback because I have high
expectations of you and I know that you will achieve them.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
Yes, And you imagine if you community that to your people,
they want to deliver on that and they if they
really believe that you believe in them, they will move
heaven and earth to be able to do that for you.
So we only have like maybe about a minute or
so to address it, But if you could say a
bit more about how magical that this idea of the
zone of possibilities and setting those high expectations can be.
Speaker 6 (46:58):
Yeah, just communicy that telling people that you have high
expectations of them, treating them as if they have high
potential is a very powerful way to communicate to them
that they have the opportunity to grow. I mean, I
think we all have somebody that believed in us, that
pushed us, that saw something that we didn't see for ourselves.
(47:19):
I know I have a number of those people to
thank for learning and growing.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
And being where I am now.
Speaker 6 (47:26):
And leaders and managers can be that for someone else
and taking the time to coach somebody to you know,
help connect them with someone who might be a valuable
resource to them, to make recommendations for things that they
should read or learn or whatever. You know, is a
very powerful way to instill that sense of challenge and
(47:48):
give people a way forward.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
Yeah, and really quick leasures and viewers. Wes and Tamar
and I are aligned on this. This is not about
just your high po your high performance performers, which is
I have to ten percent of your people. It's everybody
in your organization needs to have this kind of gaze
and support and encouragement to become their best. So I'm
all for it. You know, just eradicating to hypo focus myself.
(48:13):
So now you know that this is the show is
listened to by people around the world. Say, in about
fifteen seconds, what would you like to leave them with?
Speaker 6 (48:22):
Remember to say thank you. It's the easiest thing that
you can do, and I promise.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
You it has a huge impact.
Speaker 5 (48:30):
That is gorgeous. Well let's just do that.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
Thank you Wes for writing this perfect book, for being you,
and for coming on the podcast and sharing about it.
Speaker 5 (48:38):
It's been a delight to have you on.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Thank you. I've loved the conversation me too.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Listeners and viewers, you're going to want to learn more
about Wes Adams and the work he does the book
that he and Tomorrow have e written. You can start
by visiting make work Meaningful dot com. How easy is that?
Make work meaningful dot com? Last week, if you missed
the live show, you can always catch a year QUI podcast.
We're on air with tomorrow with Tamera Ryan, former longtime
(49:04):
CEO of the Women's Bean Project, talking about her book
Followship Sixteen lessons to become a Leader worth following and
I am completely aligned with her message that was excited
to share it with you. Next week will be on
the air with Dana Williams talking about her freshly released
book The Internal Revolution. Lead authentically and build your personal
brand from within. See you then together, let's lean in
(49:26):
and learn together how to make workplaces that call for
it the best from everyone, build our inspirational leadership capacity
and find ways you do business that serves all of
our stakeholders.
Speaker 5 (49:35):
Let's Work on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (49:39):
Welcome you.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion. Performance
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose. They crave see you there. Work on purpose,
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY
Radio or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments
should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for
(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's working on Purpose? Anyway?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People
ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their
talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave
being part of an organization that inspires them and helps
them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be
such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.
In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help
(00:53):
usher in this world we all want Working on Purpose. Now,
here's your host, doctor Elise Cortez.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has
been brought to you with passionate and pride since February
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week. Great
to have you. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortes. If
we've not met before and you don't know me, I'm
a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapists, speaker,
and author. My team and I at Gusta Now help
companies to unlive it and fortify their operations by building
(01:25):
a dynamic, high performance culture, inspirational leadership, and nurturing managers
activated by meaning and purpose. Many organizations are not aware
of how critical it is to invest in developing their
leaders and managers not just for their own effectiveness, but
also to avoid burnout and keep them fulfilled, and also
that they can measure and monitor the purpose experience in
their organizations to keep it working as an operational imperative.
(01:47):
So much you can do with meaning and purpose. Did
you know that inspired employees in purpose led organizations outperform
their satisfied peers by a factor of two point twenty
five to one. In other words, inspiration is good for
the bottom line. You can learn more about us and
how we can work together at gusto dashnow dot com
or my personal site at Leisquortes dot com. Getting into
(02:08):
today's program, we had with us Wes Adams, the founder
and CEO of SV Consulting Group. He helps leading companies
build organizational resilience, develop leadership excellence, and draw out peak
performance through a meaning Work lens. He's a co author
of the book Meaningful Work, How to Ignite Passion and
Performance in Every Employee, which we'll be talking about today. Wes,
welcome to Working on Purpose.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Thanks so much, Elise. Great to be here.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
Thank you, You're so welcome.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Look at this gorgeous thing that you put into the world.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Isn't that gorgeous?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
It's exciting to see it.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
Yeah, a lot of work went into it. My co
author Tamora and I spent a number of years doing
the research for it, and it's pretty crazy to see
it out in the world.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
I understand.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
I really appreciate that, and I know since you're a
gent I can be confident in telling you what you
did there is harder than bringing a baby into the both,
so just so you know, harder than childbirth.
Speaker 6 (03:03):
I appreciate that and that you can say it and
I can't know.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I know where it is together with Well, let's talk
about how this book came together, how you and Tomorrow
Miles brought this thing together, how you met, Why is
the book and its message important to you?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Absolutely?
Speaker 6 (03:20):
So, Tomorrow and I actually met in grad school. We
both have a master's of Applied Positive Psychology from University
of Pennsylvania. We studied with Martin Martin Seligman, who is
known as the father of positive psychology. And you know,
we had come there for kind of slightly different reasons,
but we had the same goal. I had been working
(03:42):
for a number of years in the social enterprise space,
and when I first started working in the space, I
think I somewhat naively thought that, oh, because you know,
these are mission driven or purpose driven organizations, they're naturally
going to be amazing places to work because everybody's got
the same.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Goal in mind, and we're all going to hold hands
and you know, march forward together.
Speaker 6 (04:04):
And you know, there are certainly some great organizations that
I had experiences with, but what I learned was that
not all of them were great places to work. And
this idea of having a mission or having a purpose
wasn't enough to create an amazing place to work. And
so I got really interested in organizational psychology and started
reading Adam Grant and you know, all all of the
(04:27):
other stuff, and that eventually led me to PEN because
I was really interested in understanding, like, could you deconstruct
how to create an amazing workplace? What were the leadership
practices and organizational structures that would help people thrive, help
people do their best work?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And so that's what that's what kicked all of this off.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Well, as I said before we got on air, we
are two piece or three piece in a pod, right,
the three of us are really working from we're singing
from the same sheet of music here and very much
echo and really applaud what you've written and created together.
And I really align with how you talk about meaning.
Was what really powers high performance and well being at work?
It's the sun, soil and space that makes our gardens grow.
(05:13):
I think that's a powerful way to think about meaning.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, it's what we found.
Speaker 6 (05:20):
You know, there's several decades of research on meaning at
work and the impact that it has, and it's really
the upstream factor that drives all of the outcomes that
we're looking for individually. It drives job satisfaction, engagement, well
being and at the team and organizational level things like innovation, productivity.
(05:40):
There's even great new research from Oxford showing it drives
profitability and stock price. So it's really something it's not
a nice to have, you know. The idea of meaning
can sound a little soft sometimes, but it's actually a
business imperative, especially as we're moving into a world where
our core human and skills are going to be the
(06:01):
most valuable. As you know, things like AI are taking
over some of the more repetitive things. So we see
it as really something you've got to be investing in.
And so that's why we wrote the book because we're
particularly interested in understanding how leaders help people find meeting.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
We're going to get.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Into the more of the details listeners and viewers as
to what we mean by meaning as we go along here,
But I do want to say just a bit more
about just the business case for this. You've said lots
of the areas that when we really work on making
work more meaningful impact, but just a couple of things
that stood out for me from your book is just
crazy things like employees who report higher levels of meaning
(06:43):
at work are sixty four percent more fulfilled, four and
a half times more engaged, sixty nine percent less likely
to quit. I mean, these are significant factors if we
can numbers here, and so I think it's really important
that we position for our listeners and viewers just the
critical out because I think a lot of people think
that meaning and the work that I also do in
purpose can be a little bit Mushy's And you also
(07:05):
talk about being able to measure the impact of meaning
as well. So I just want to if you have
any other stats that you want to throw out here
that really help bring it home for our listeners and
viewers sys to why they should pay attention to this
and embrace it as an imperative.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
That's a great question.
Speaker 6 (07:20):
I should probably have more statistics in my head, but
you know, I will say, like you, I'm you know,
my primary job is I'm a consultant. I do leadership
development and organizational design work with a range of companies,
and so I'm actively teaching these practices and helping companies
implement these structures, and I can tell you that it
(07:42):
has a huge impact on the business, on the company's
ability to grow, to perform, to deliver the bottom line.
So you know, it continues to play out again and again,
how much these practices benefit organizations.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Well, let me throw out another one that I have
seen several times over and over again that I'll bet
will be very surprising and interesting to our listeners and viewers.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
And that is that you say.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
In a recent study, nine out of ten workers stated
that meaning at work is so important that they would
that they would take a more meaningful job elsewhere, even
if it paid less. These workers are willing to give
up almost one quarter of their lifetime earnings for work
that is more meaningful. That is, if that is not
sobering to listeners and viewers, it doesn't have your attention,
(08:29):
you know. In other words, whatever you invest in helping
making work more meaningful, you have an immediate payoff people
sticking around. So I just wanted to be able to
service a few more of those really meeting numbers for
our listeners viewers that are given more to the quantitative
aspects of this stuff. I appreciate that absolutely. So you
mentioned the importance of what leaders do. I want to
(08:50):
go there next, Wes, you talk about nearly fifty percent
of an employee's experience of meaning at work is tied
to what leaders do or fail to do. You say
a bit more about.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
That yeah, I think that's a really important finding. So
one of the things that Tomorrow and I found when
we started doing research on this topic was there's a
lot available around how do I find a more meaningful
job or what can I do to craft my job
and find more meaningful work, and there was very little
(09:22):
available for leaders who wanted to help people find meaning
in their jobs. And I think also this idea that
you know, meaning is reserved for people who work in
nonprofits or in healthcare or that sort of thing, and so,
you know, we really wanted to dig into that. And
so what we found, you know, over several years of
doing this research and you know, doing quantitative studies to
(09:46):
understand the impact of these behaviors on people's sense of
meaning and other outcomes like job satisfaction, retention, those sorts
of things, was that these behaviors that we identified account
for about how off of how meaningful people find their jobs.
And that's enormous, you know, that is a that is
an incredible responsibility that leaders have and also a huge opportunity,
(10:11):
what an incredible leverage point, you know, if we know
that meaning is the upstream factor that drives all of
these things that we want leaders have a huge potential
impact on that if they're employing these practices and you know,
thinking about how they're actively investing in these things. And
I think the other thing that we found was that
(10:32):
you know, people in every job, every day can experience meaning,
especially when leaders are employing these practices. You know, your
job doesn't have to be your life's calling for your
worth to for your work to feel worthwhile. You know,
these moments of meaning can happen in every job. And
you know, we talk to people who are you know, hairstylists, janitors,
(10:53):
you know, people working in data centers who found their
jobs incredibly meaningful. And so I think that bodes well
for all of us. You know that we can get
more than just a paycheck out of our jobs, whatever
that is.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
For my PAGDA study team and development and I research
for my dissertation how meaning is experienced by people actually
it managers back then, how to related to their sense
of self? And then I did a big postoc research
back in twenty fourteen, and I found these fifteen modes
of engagement when I looked at the levels in kind,
the depth and quality of the meaning and its relationship
(11:32):
to their person and so yes, the same thing. I
also researched many different kinds of individuals, and the richness
that's available around how people experience and express what's meaningful
is just dazzling, and it's there. There's an opportunity to
your point, and that's why I also, as a fellow consultant,
really love getting to support leaders because this is not
(11:56):
super hard, but it maybe isn't super obvious to be
able to help ste does this meaning journey?
Speaker 6 (12:03):
Yeah, I well, first of all, I'm really interested in
that research, so I'd.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Love for you to send it to me after and
I think I might swap what you just said.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
I think actually a lot of these practices are a
little bit more obvious than you might think.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
But they're not easy. They're not easy to remember to
do every day.
Speaker 6 (12:25):
They're not easy to implement, especially when we're too busy,
when we're not in the same room, you know, when
we're faced with all of this change. You know, I
think one of the things that surprised us when we
were doing this research was that, you know, I think
I think we were kind of thinking, Oh, we're going
to come up with these groundbreaking behaviors and structures that
(12:48):
no one's ever found before and unlock the secret to
creating meaning at work. And actually, you know a lot
of them are very time tested behaviors leadership practices. I
don't know that they've all necessarily been collected in one
place before, but.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
You know, none of them were sort of.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
As groundbreaking as we had expected, I think, with the
exception of the importance of recruiting and onboarding and how
you handle that process and the impact that it has
throughout the life of your relationship with an employee. But
otherwise I think they're you know, a lot of them
are time tested, and they're very hard to do well,
(13:31):
to do consistently and intentionally.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
So I want to situate kind of going back to
what we were talking about what leaders can do to
be able to make work more meaningful. And one of
the things I think makes your work so powerful and compelling, Wes,
is that you've really isolated into really three main buckets,
three c's, if you will. And so you go on
to say that leaders who build community, help people understand
(13:57):
their contributions matter and challenge them, and opportunities to learn
and grow foster meaning for everyone on their team. So
it's that whole thing of community, contribution, challenge that I
think really makes your work so compelling and I think
helps maybe everyone be able to better access what we
mean by this squishy thing called how do we make
(14:17):
work more meaningful?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, let's dive into those.
Speaker 6 (14:21):
So the three seas of meaning, the three sources of meaning, community, contribution,
and challenge. As you mentioned, So, community is this sense
that you belong, that you can show up authentically, bring
your full self and your full ideas to the table.
Contribution is understanding how you are positively impacting other people,
(14:42):
whether that's clients or coworkers, or how your work is
laddering up to a larger organizational goal. And finally challenges
that individual opportunity to learn and grow. How are you
becoming the best version of yourself and seeking their full potential.
What we found was that, you know, there's a multiplier
(15:04):
effect that happens here, so you know, they kind of
play off of each other. Sometimes some of these practices,
you know, fit in a couple of those buckets, and
also if one of them is missing, it can cancel
out the other two. So going back to this idea
of you know, some of the social enterprises or nonprofits
that you know I've been a part of that haven't
(15:24):
been such great places to work? Well it might it
might have been high in contribution, but one of those
other seas could have been missing.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Beautiful way to summarize what you're at the heart of
what you've created here together and let's rub our first
break here. We have been on air with Wes Adams
talking about his new book that he's put out into
the word Heal and he's the author of Meaningful Work.
He's the founder and CEO of c ME Consulting Group.
We have been talking so far about why, what's the
(15:52):
business case for being able to make work more meaningful
and getting into the heart of their their core research
around the three SE's. After the break, we're going to
situate the importance of aligning values to behavior is one
of these aspects to drive an organization forward. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
a Lease to speak to your organization, please visit her
(16:45):
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or
to open a conversation with a Lease, send an email
to a lease a Lisee at a lascortes dot com.
(17:08):
Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor release Cortes, as I too,
am dedicated to help and create a world where organizations
thrive because they're people thrive and they're led by inspirational
leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness. And
we do business at Betters to the Worlds. I keep
researching and writing my own books. So one of my
latest came out. It's called The Great Revitalization, How activating
(17:35):
a Median Purpose can radically enliven your business. And it's
similar to Wes and Tomorrow's book and that it really
is designed to help readers understand the lay of today's
discerning workforce. What do they want to need to stay
engaged and give their best? And then I offer you
twenty two best practices to help equip you in your
(17:55):
culture to provide that for them. You can find my
books on Amazon or my personal at least quretes dot com.
So coming back into the conversation here, so we can
orient our view our listeners and viewers here, West, I
just want to remind and maybe do us a quick
summary here that you define meaningful work as work that
provides community, helps us contribute to something that matters, and
(18:18):
challenging us, challenges us to learn and grow. And so
what you said just before the break, I think is
that we really need all three of those components for
it to registers meaningful.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yes, no, kind of absolutely, yeah, all three are important. Cool. Cool.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
So I do want to talk about this idea of alignment.
It's something that we also measure when it comes to
purpose and values as well. And I think that the
way you talk about aligning values to behavior and certainly
how leaders can can model that is so so critical.
Speaker 6 (18:47):
Absolutely, so this was an interesting finding from our research,
and that's this idea that you know, you have to
walk your talk right, you know, you have to be
a good role model for organizational value. And it was
really this idea of alignment between behavior and spoken values
was really a prerequisite for meaningful work, So it was
(19:09):
sort of it precedes the three c's. It was a
necessary but not sufficient part of the equation here. It
didn't really add much when people were aligned, but it
was the quickest way to destroy meaning was to not
be aligned. And so you know, very often we throw
our values up on the wall transparency, you know, trust,
(19:32):
teamwork and things like that, and people look to leaders
to their behavior to understand whether those things really matter right,
what are the real values, what's the real culture of
the organization, And if we're saying one thing and doing another,
it really breaks trust in a way that's hard to
recover from.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
I actually had someone talk to me some years ago
when she found out what we did here at our company,
and she went on to share experience and where she
had worked for it was a firefighting organization, and she said,
you know, it was so demoralizing because she said the
leaders actually acted in direct opposition to the values, and
dragging myself to work every day felt like I was
(20:15):
crucifying myself every day. So back to what I was
saying on my own research, part of what the reason
there are fifteen modes of engagement. Is that we look
at both the positive and negative balance of meaning. In
that case, that's a negative contribution to meaning, and it
can be incredibly destructive to the souls of the organization
that you're depending on to power your mission. So it
(20:36):
just really wanted to bring that home just how devastating
it can be when leaders are literally or anyone in
the organization, especially the leaders are acting in opposition to
those stated values.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
This is one of the biggest complaints I hear when
I start a project with a client and do discovery
work and start talking to people on the ground, this
is one of the first things that comes up is, Oh,
you know, leaders here say this, but actually this is
how it really works, and it's very hard to navigate
through that to get to the important work that needs
(21:08):
to happen, you know, to move an organization forward.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Yeah, indeed, well we have some. You have many great
examples in the book. I love all of your examples
and the people that you cite, and I definitely want
to celebrate our dear Bob Chapman at Barry Way Miller.
He is a dear colleague of mine, not colleague. I
consider him. I say that I'm one of his followers, right.
I believe in his leadership discipline. He's been on my
(21:34):
podcast a couple of times, He's written testimonies for a.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Couple of my books.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
I really believe in him his leadership philosophy. So let's
talk about just what that looks like when we are
a leader like Bob Chapman was going through back in
the financial crisis, what in two thousand and eight, two
thousand and nine, and was really faced with some difficult
situations that They're a manufacturing company located I think in
Saint Louis, and he went back and said, let's look
(22:01):
at our values here, how do we get through this together?
So can you paint a little bit of that picture.
I'll add in some details that I remember from your
book that I think are really compelling.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
Absolutely, you know, it was a very difficult time the
financial crisis, I think, if I'm remembering correctly, their business
took a huge dive, you know, in from one year
to the next, and they were faced with a situation
where they weren't going to be able to make it
and unless they reduce costs in a pretty significant way.
(22:31):
And so normally what organizations do in that situation is
they lay off a chunk of the workforce and you know,
save on those costs. And you know, Bob had been
and the leadership team for several years before that, had
really been invested in the these values of the organization
(22:53):
talking about these values, living these values, and so you know,
this was a in a crisis moment. I think that's
when that does matter most, Right, are you do the
work when it gets hard? You know, it's easy to
be aligned with your values when things are going well.
And so you know, I think he and the senior
leadership team really took a step back and looked at
(23:18):
I believe their value was you know, uh, you know
this idea of working as a family. What would a
family do? Yes, And they really thought about, well, what,
you know, a lot of these folks were also going
to be in hard times. You know, if they had
lost their jobs. It was you know, tough financial situation
for everyone. And so what they decided to do instead
(23:39):
of laying people off was a series of furloughs. So
people would get a couple of weeks furloughed and that
would rotate throughout the year so that no one had
to lose their job. Everyone would make a little bit less,
but everyone would keep their job. Everyone be able to
navigate through this situation, and some people in the organization
(24:01):
actually put their hand up for double furloughs so that
people who really needed the money or you know, had
families that were struggling, could you know, keep their full
paychecks and that sort of thing. And I believe he
also halted four oh one K matches with the tend
to repay them, you know, when he could, and they
(24:22):
navigated that year of the financial crisis, and I think
they came back stronger than ever and within a year
or eighteen months, you know, people were back full time.
They had paid back all of the four oh one
K contributions that they had held back, and you know,
it was really a testament to what happens when you
live your values in the long term impact that that
(24:44):
has on the organization.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yeah, let me add just a few more details to that,
because I think this is really really powerful listeners and
viewers think about the impact of what this would have
on your organization if you had, if you really lived
the values like this. So in addition, Bob took a
major pay cut self. He he went from one eight
hundred and seventy five thousand a year to ten thousand,
five hundred dollars that year.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Talk about walking the talk.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Talk about walking the talk, and he did put the
bonuses in four one K matches on hold, and specifically,
I want to I want to make sure that y'all
understand how this furlough works. And so he asked all
their associates to take an unpaid four week furlough to
distribute the impact equally. And to your point, Wes, some
of those people said, Hey, Jane needs more of an
income right now with her three kids or whatever than
(25:28):
I do. I'll take double furlow kind of thing. So
think about what that does. Together, and Bob and doctor
Roschasodi have co written a book called Everybody Matters and
that is again walking the talk. And I just if
you think about what does this do? Boy, how many
people would you know? Almost I don't want I'm not
going to say that what I was about to say,
(25:49):
because in these political times it could be really really charged,
but you know, really give them themselves over for this
company because they believe they were there in the hard time.
So I just really want to say, situay This is
really unusual behavior, but it's also incredibly distinguished. Bob speaks
all over the world, and people seek his counsel because
they see how successful they have been over the years.
(26:12):
They don't talk about headcounts in their company, they talk
about heart count. I mean, it's just it's really, really
a beautiful example of truly walking talk.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I love that.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
Yeah, it's really incredible to see what happens when you
are willing to invest in this stuff and walk your talk,
especially in the long term. You know, I think we
have a lot of short term pressures on organizations these days,
and you know, those those decisions. I mean just the
research on laying people off and the impact that that
(26:45):
has on an organization.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I was reading.
Speaker 6 (26:48):
I'm forgetting who the researcher was, but you know, they
can measure the negative impacts of that three years and
further beyond an organization. It hurts the organization's reputation, It
hurts that sense of teamwork and collaboration in ways that's
really difficult to recover from.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Indeed, and on that note, I did want to go
into how you offer some ways that leaders can cultivate connection.
I thought that your ideas about shared experiences were really
really interesting. The portfolio approach you talk about in the
book was really interesting, and I think it's really critical
that when we talk about shared experiences, a lot of
(27:26):
people immediately when you think about the lower hanging fruit,
they are like, oh, yeah, let's have a pizza party,
let's do you know, let's do a happy hour or whatever.
And you distinguish some more when you add in the
challenge piece of that, a shared challenge. How much more
meaningful that is than a nice mix of those activities
can really make a difference to cultivating that connection. If
(27:50):
you could see a bit more about these ways that
leaders and organizations can cultivate shared experiences and also that
portfolio approach.
Speaker 6 (27:59):
Yeah, so doing things together is a great way to
build authentic relationships with each other. And one of the
things that we talk about in the book is as
leaders creating a portfolio of shared experiences along two axes,
that a difficulty axis.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And also a purpose access.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
So you know, in one part of this matrix you
would have you know, kind of lower difficulty, lower purpose
activities and that could look like you know, something we
talk about in the book, which is the Swedish practice
of FIKA, which is basically just having a coffee break together,
synchronizing coffee breaks across the organization, which you know, just
(28:42):
means that people happen to be free at the same time.
They bump into each other, they chat, they have a
chance to you know, get to know each other a
little bit. And that's actually there's research on it been
a very powerful way to build connection and even collaboration
across functions and that sort of thing. And then you
can get into higher difficulty, higher purpose experiences like we're
(29:07):
going to go do a volunteering today day together at
the local soup kitchen or whatever that is. That takes
a lot more time. It's a little bit more difficult
to do that sort of thing. And what we want
is sort of a range of experiences across the spectrum,
so that we're varying, you know, opportunities for different types
(29:27):
of people, and we're creating all of these different entry
points for folks across that portfolio.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
And one of the things.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Too that I appreciate about that, and you do talk
about in the book as well, and I've also written
about it and spoken about it, is, you know, if
you want people to come together and there's a lot
there's it makes more sense for people to come together
when they are learning together, they're trying to connect together,
and when you do ask them to come together, essentially,
you do need to need to be able to earn
(29:56):
that commute, to earn the effort, the resources it takes
for them to get there. And I think some of this,
this idea of a portfoli of experience, really helps situate
for leaders how you can make these things compelling and
really meaningful and meaning for people. So I just really
want to celebrate how you've situated those opportunities for organizations.
Speaker 6 (30:16):
I appreciate that, and I think we could probably do
a whole episode on how the psychological contract of showing
up at work has changed, no doubt significantly, And I
think there's this new capability that's needed within organizations, which
is thinking about how to organize people when they come
into the office. How are you thinking about that like
an event planner, an experiential marketer. You know, there's no
(30:40):
reason to come into the office to be on zoom
calls all day or teams calls all day.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I can do that from home.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
How are you creating opportunities for us to connect for
us to collaborate, be creative, brainstorm, have inspirational connection with
each other. That's what we need to do when we're
in person.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Well, on that note, I also wanted to call out
and embrace the idea that you have in your book
about about embracing authenticity and doing it in a way
through personal storytelling and which allows people to also summon
their higher emotions. I'm a big fan of Barbara Fredrickson,
and I really love the idea of being able to
encourage people to share their personal stories what matters to them.
(31:22):
And what I love about this in aligns with what
I'm also doing too west on some of my newer
offerings is it allows them when they are able to
bring in their full selves and share what matter to
them that we are now building through their positive emotions
such as joy and gratitude and curiosity, which she expands
our thinking and prompts us to explore new possibilities and ideas,
(31:44):
and that is connective and sticky, and there's just so
much richness and what you can create from and innovate
from that sort of an experience point.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
Absolutely, and I think you know a huge fan of
Barbara Frederickson. She was one of my professors, and J.
Dutton's work on high quality connections also just the even
very brief interactions with people that elicit those positive emotions
are hugely powerful and connecting us to each other.
Speaker 7 (32:13):
You and I can probably keep out all day, absolutely,
but let's grab our last break here. I'm your host,
doctor release Cortes. I'm on that area with Wes Adams.
He's the founder and CEO of SV Consulting Group. He
helps leading companies build organizational resilience, develop leadership excellence, and
draw and draw out peak performance through a meaningful work lens.
(32:35):
We've been talking a bit about more of the concepts
of how leaders can cultivate this sense of meeting and organizations.
After the break, we're going to continue the conversation and
talk about how we can start that whole process right
from the beginning when we hire people.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at
(33:26):
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise A.
LISEE at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Thanks for staying with us to welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Relise Cortez. As you
know by now, the program is dedicated to empowering and
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.
You will learn more about how we can work together
and learn about the gusto Now Academy for leaders and
individuals on various journeys alike. Make your way to gustodesh
now dot com and then go to the training tab
(34:16):
and you'll find the academy there if you are just
joining us. My guest is Wes Adams. He's the co
author of Meaningful Work, How to Ignite Passion and Performance
in Every Employee. So you had mentioned this before when
we were speaking in the first segment here, but this
notion of how we can even start this whole meeting
journey before we even bring people into our organization by
(34:37):
hiring through values. And I think this is really really
powerful if you could speak a bit about the idea
of the values interview, their values journey and how it
shows up in their work. This is not something I've
heard too many people talk about.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
This was really fascinating to us when we found it
in the research. And what we learned was that even
just talking about an organization's values in the recruiting process
in someone's interview had an impact on the meaning that
they felt later in their career, even years later, right,
(35:11):
there was a measurable impact there. And so this practice
first of all of talking about values, of being asked
about your own values and understanding what the organization believes
in and how they operate and what the culture is.
You know, our theory on that is first of all,
it signals that this is a place where you know,
(35:32):
we behave in line with our values.
Speaker 6 (35:34):
And second of all, it allows people to self select
in you know, it's it helps build that alignment between
you know, my personal values and the organizational values of
the company.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
That I'm interviewing with.
Speaker 6 (35:47):
And you know, there are a couple organizations that we
talk about, Zappos, I think being one of them, that's
pretty well known for their values interview, which is a
behavioral interview that's really around alignment with Zappo's values. And
so there's a whole separate interview that's just about values alignment,
(36:12):
or I guess I should say values add because one
of the important distinctions here is we don't want people
who think exactly like us. We want people who share
the same values but are still willing to challenge us
on how those live in the world. And so, you know,
they have an interview and they rate people on the
values according to you a very specific scale, and that
(36:35):
trumps all of the other interviews. So even if you
have a very high quality candidate, if you're desperate for
a new engineer and this person went to MIT and
they have all the qualifications, if they don't pass the
values interview, they don't make it in. And so they
really walk their talk in that way, which I think
is powerful, and it means that people that make it
(36:57):
into the organization are really going to feel an increased
sense of belonging because they know everyone else is aligned
on those things.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
Very powerful.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
And one of the things that we do is when
we when we help when people understand their own individual
values and they can align them with and through that
of the organizational purpose. Now it's it's really powerful. It's
really that's what's what allows them to feel amplified by
being part of the organization. So the values piece is
really really important, and I don't see too many organizations
doing that work upfront. Like you're talking about, let's talk
(37:31):
a little bit about feedback. I have I work with
several different leaders right now. I'm amazed by several of
them who have said just recently to me as we
talk a little bit about appreciation, and I such an
who almost literally said the exact same phrase to me,
I think people should be if they're doing their job.
I don't think I need to say thank you or
(37:54):
show appreciation because that's what I expect of them.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
And I.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
That they're The research is overwhelming to the contrary, right,
And so you go on to say that, you know,
one study found that participants who were asked to give
positive feedbacks typically underestimated how much it would matter to
the person receiving it. And also how surprised the recipients
would be to hear it. Participants assume their gratitude would
be more obvious and less meaningful to the recipient that
(38:22):
it actually was.
Speaker 6 (38:24):
Yeah, this is I have also heard people say that
many times. Why should I thank somebody for doing their job?
They're just meeting expectations. Uh, and yeah, it's it's pretty
mind blowing sometimes going into an organization and hearing that
people haven't been thanked ever, you know, or recognized ever
(38:49):
for the work that they're doing, or it's been months
or years since they've heard something like that from a manager,
and you know, I think the there's there's recent research
from Gallup and work Human showing that one thank you
once a week cuts from a manager cuts disengagement and
burnout in half. That's one thank you once a week
(39:09):
from a manager, and less than forty percent of the
people in that study felt adequately recognized for their work. Right,
So this is a huge This is one thing I'm
very passionate about. It's a huge leverage point and it's
one of the most underused leadership tools out there. You know,
just saying thank you or good job on a regular
basis incredibly powerful to let people know that their work matters,
(39:34):
to show them that they have a valuable contribution to
the organization, and even better if we can be specific
about that. So we talk about feedback model, the best
model for positive feedback in the book, that's behavioral, explicit
strengths based and timely. And we want to call out
(39:55):
exactly what was the thing that you did that I'm appreciating,
What was the impact of that had? Can we be
explicit about that, what's the strength that I see in you?
And we always want to do that as soon as
possible after you know, that event happened, and so that
would be you know.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
A lease.
Speaker 6 (40:14):
I really appreciated that you followed up earlier today to
make sure that I felt prepared for the podcast. You know,
it really made me feel comfortable coming in and it
showed a lot of you know, consideration on your part,
and so thank you for doing that right And so
now you've known, you know, first of all that you
(40:35):
know what you did was appreciated and it wasn't wasted time.
And second of all, you're going to be much more
likely to do that again because you know that that's
a valued behavior. And so you know, one of the
one of my biggest learnings, you know, studying positive psychology
is it's much more powerful to help identify what people
are doing well and double down on those things. It's
(40:58):
just to focus on what people are getting wrong.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
No, no doubt, one hundred percent alignment on that. A
lot of listeners and yours don't understand. And I learned
this in my years and that I continue continue to
measure and improve employee engagement. But there's there's a couple
of really standard value what I want to say, values
or whatever that people really care about when it comes
(41:23):
to engagement. One is the value being valued and appreciated,
which we're talking about. That's one of the strongest indicators
or factors that drive employee engagement. Another one is learning
and development. Of course, there's also the connection to the
manager that we've been talking about through this whole time.
So I want to go to that learning and development piece,
but I want to do it specifically through your lens
that you talk about in your book about creating meaning
(41:45):
through challenge. Now you wouldn't know this, but one of
my three master's degrees is a master well three just three, yes,
three three masters.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
My mother kept saying, when are you going to stop
going to school? I'd be like, wep never, and that
would give her like a small series of many heart attacks.
But it's it's called it. It's a it's a diplomat
in logo philosophy. That is doctor Victor Frankel's existential psychology work.
Of course that so I know he's worked very well,
and so I really want to situate what you have
in your book about how you put forth. For those
(42:19):
of you who don't know who he is, he's a
He was an Austrian psychiatrist, holocaust survivor, and the author
of many, many different.
Speaker 5 (42:28):
Works of book works books.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
But he put forth the idea that what people, when
he says, man, what people actually really need is not
a tensionless state, but rather the striving and struggling for
some goal worthy of them. What this, what people need
is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but
the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled
(42:51):
by them. And so the opportunity is that it is
just that right to be able to fill that bucket,
to elicit that that reach, and that that difficult do.
That is what brings out the best in people. So
if you could speak a little bit about creating meaning
through challenge.
Speaker 6 (43:07):
First of all, A huge fan of Victor Frankel, and
I have that quote in several of the workshops. I
t we're aligned there, and I'll say, just to frame things,
one of the first things that I do when I'm
giving a presentation on meaning or doing a workshop that
involves some of these practices is ask people to think
(43:31):
about a time that was especially meaningful to them, a
time at work that they feel really proud of or
that's really stuck with them. That's powerful. And I would
say more than eighty percent of the time, people don't
talk about things that were easy. They talked about Man,
there was this thing that was really hard. I didn't
think I could do it. It was a real struggle,
(43:53):
but our team banded together. I pushed myself beyond my
capabilities in a way that you know, I was sure
was possible, and we came out the other side and
we did it. And in the moment you know that
I think this is this is where this idea that
people should be happy at work sometimes conflicts with this
(44:13):
idea of meaning. Right, you know, we're not going to
be happy all the time. We can't expect to be
happy all the time. But that struggle is what allows
us to grow and to learn and to get better.
There is no growth without struggle, without pushing ourselves beyond
the bounds of what we can already do. And that's
that's a really important part of being human. And so
(44:36):
we want to Very few of us want to sit
in the same job, doing the same thing for the
next forty years. We want to progress, we want to
move up, we want to do more difficult things. We
want to expand, and you know, we have to provide
people the opportunity to do that. If you know, we
want them to experience meaning and if we want to
(44:57):
get their best work out of them, we have to
give them a true projectory and to do it.
Speaker 5 (45:02):
So I like how you situate.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
You want to meaningfully challenge them but also support them
along the way. Don't just throw them into the deep
en and say so I'm to the other side. You know,
you're challenging it while also supporting them. I think that's
really really important. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (45:15):
Bob Quinn, who's you know from Michigan, one of the
founders of the Center for Positive Organizations there uses the
analogy It's like a leader has one hand on your
back pushing you forward and another under your arm helping
you navigate yes terrain, And we found that's really important.
You you need high expectations.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
You want to.
Speaker 6 (45:37):
Push people outside of their comfort zone to give them
stretch assignments, to give them opportunities to grow. And you
need to support them through that, not just push them
out of the nest and hope they fly, but actually
give them the tools, the resources, the coaching that they
need to find their way forward.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
And I did want to finish on that note.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
Wes, this idea the zone of possibilities you call in
the last chapter of your book, and setting high expectation
for all to lean into, and what I want to
situate here. I do like how you draw on the
Pygmalion effect, But which is really all about is putting
forth the expectation that one manager's believe in the potential
of their people. They're not expecting them just to deliver
(46:20):
the least amount, to be able to do their work
at all. And that that nineteen word phrase that you
talk about in the book, I'll have to find it here.
I've got it in my notes.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
That really is feedback imagining.
Speaker 6 (46:32):
Yeah, I'm giving you this feedback because I have high
expectations of you and I know that you will achieve them.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
Yes, And you imagine if you community that to your people,
they want to deliver on that and they if they
really believe that you believe in them, they will move
heaven and earth to be able to do that for you.
So we only have like maybe about a minute or
so to address it, But if you could say a
bit more about how magical that this idea of the
zone of possibilities and setting those high expectations can be.
Speaker 6 (46:58):
Yeah, just communicy that telling people that you have high
expectations of them, treating them as if they have high
potential is a very powerful way to communicate to them
that they have the opportunity to grow. I mean, I
think we all have somebody that believed in us, that
pushed us, that saw something that we didn't see for ourselves.
(47:19):
I know I have a number of those people to
thank for learning and growing.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
And being where I am now.
Speaker 6 (47:26):
And leaders and managers can be that for someone else
and taking the time to coach somebody to you know,
help connect them with someone who might be a valuable
resource to them, to make recommendations for things that they
should read or learn or whatever. You know, is a
very powerful way to instill that sense of challenge and
(47:48):
give people a way forward.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
Yeah, and really quick leasures and viewers. Wes and Tamar
and I are aligned on this. This is not about
just your high po your high performance performers, which is
I have to ten percent of your people. It's everybody
in your organization needs to have this kind of gaze
and support and encouragement to become their best. So I'm
all for it. You know, just eradicating to hypo focus myself.
(48:13):
So now you know that this is the show is
listened to by people around the world. Say, in about
fifteen seconds, what would you like to leave them with?
Speaker 6 (48:22):
Remember to say thank you. It's the easiest thing that
you can do, and I promise.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
You it has a huge impact.
Speaker 5 (48:30):
That is gorgeous. Well let's just do that.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
Thank you Wes for writing this perfect book, for being you,
and for coming on the podcast and sharing about it.
Speaker 5 (48:38):
It's been a delight to have you on.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Thank you. I've loved the conversation me too.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Listeners and viewers, you're going to want to learn more
about Wes Adams and the work he does the book
that he and Tomorrow have e written. You can start
by visiting make work Meaningful dot com. How easy is that?
Make work meaningful dot com? Last week, if you missed
the live show, you can always catch a year QUI podcast.
We're on air with tomorrow with Tamera Ryan, former longtime
(49:04):
CEO of the Women's Bean Project, talking about her book
Followship Sixteen lessons to become a Leader worth following and
I am completely aligned with her message that was excited
to share it with you. Next week will be on
the air with Dana Williams talking about her freshly released
book The Internal Revolution. Lead authentically and build your personal
brand from within. See you then together, let's lean in
(49:26):
and learn together how to make workplaces that call for
it the best from everyone, build our inspirational leadership capacity
and find ways you do business that serves all of
our stakeholders.
Speaker 5 (49:35):
Let's Work on Purpose.
Speaker 4 (49:39):
Welcome you.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion. Performance
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose. They crave see you there. Work on purpose,
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