June 10, 2025 • 8 mins
Labour's leader says Te Pati Māori should focus on the issues most New Zealanders care about.
Parliament last week voted to hand down the harshest suspensions in history to three MPs over a haka performed during the Treaty Principles Bill vote.
Labour's Willie Jackson and Adrian Rurawhe argued the punishments were too harsh, but also suggested the Party could compromise or say sorry.
Chris Hipkins told John MacDonald housing, health, and education are the main things Māori around the country raise with him.
He says that Te Pati Māori made their point around the haka, but he thinks people want to see them get back to debating the big issues now.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from News Talk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Right now, that's time for our regular catch up with
Labor and Opposition leader Chris Hopkins. Chris kiddo, John, how
are you very well? We've been talking this morning on
the show for the first hour about tragic case in
christ Church where a woman hired a guy to do
some gardening, but then it emerged that he was living
at was a resident at hill Morton Hospital, and she
(00:32):
was in the dark, and the other people that he
had been doing gardening work for were in the dark
as well. And someone raised the investment in mental health
that Labor committed to. Any connection between your investment and
the types of facilities like hill Morton or is it
completely unfair to say that, you know, the labour's failure
(00:55):
to allocate this investment has any part in this.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm not quite sure what your question is, John. I mean,
I think we do need to invest more in mental health.
On the issue of whether someone should need to disclose
mental health to a prospective employer, That's not something that
I've that I've looked at, so I haven't followed that
particular issue. So I'm not quite sure what we're asking there.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
That's all right. Let's bring it back to comments in
my yesterday about to party Mari. You said they need
they need to focus on the basics, on the things
that people are really concerned about. What were you really telling.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Them, Well, I mean, I think you know, issues around jobs,
health and homes, education, those core areas that people want
to see us focused on. Other things that get raised
with me in Maori communities up and down New Zealand,
and I think that they want to see politicians focusing
on those issues.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I think the Marti Party made their point around the huka,
but I think actually people want to see us getting
back to debating the big issues.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Now have you heard from them since you made your comments?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I hope they've shed some feedback publicly, I think. But
you know, at the end of the day, I think
what Kiwis want to see us focused on is the
stuff that act mesters to them, rather than constantly talking
about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Chris Bishop, aside from getting himself out of favor with
Stan Walker, he's also out of favor with the number
of christ Church people and certainly the christ Church City
Council for saying no for the council's request to have
its own special version of housing intensification rules. This is
something that Labor was in favor of when it was
(02:30):
in government. What's your position on housing intensification now.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Well, we do need to intensify housing. We need to
build more houses. We've got a housing shortage in New Zealand,
We've got a housing affordability problem in New Zealand. And
I think one of the key ways that we sold
both of those things is to build more houses. And
that means in our cities, particularly around those major transport
hubs and transport areas, we're going to need to intensify more.
(02:57):
It is simply than you know what, all countries, we're
all cities that have a significantly growing population need.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
To grapple with Yeah, I agree, But the people who
were arguing against my position earlier this week, we're saying
that christ Church has a special thing with sunlight, and
people are concerned about losing sunlight. You are saying that
we're just going to get a grip and accept that
intensifications the future.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I think one of the realities, and it's not just
usialand but if you look around the world, at areas
where housing affordability has become a major problem, it's because
planning rules have favored the rights of existing homeowners over
the rights of the whole community to build more houses.
And you know, I think the medium density rules are
designed to really grapple with that narly problem and say, actually,
(03:44):
we do need to build more houses, because it's not
okay simply to say that we're going to allow to
get communities to block building more houses in perpetuity, which
means that houses just become more and more affordable and
few and few people can buy them.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
So rather than saying that's the kicking the guts to
Christchurch Council just needs to get a grip. Is that
what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I think there's a number of people on the Crossage
Council who have been saying, actually, it's time to move
on now, and I agree with them. I think Classage
doesn't need to move on and just get onto building houses.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
As a former Minister of Education, how did you feel
about the revelation that money has been spent by schools
on all sorts of things, including flesh leaving parties, pilates
classes and jackets for the teachers for the class photos.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, I mean I feel quite uncomfortable about quite a
range of that expenditure or though difficult to comment on
individual school cases, the Ministry of Education do need to
look at those. But I think that.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Was it your government's intention that the money would be
spent on pilates classes for teachers?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
No, no, absolutely not. But actually I think one of
the things that we should look at now is if
principal well being is the issue, then probably the thing
we could look at is a different way of doing this.
If we added natural principal salary and said, look, it's
a well being allowances you get as part of your salary.
How they choose to spend their money is then totally
up to them. I think that would be a better
(05:11):
way of doing it, rather than having the schools paying
this kind of expense.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
But these kind of expenses, But Chris, who else has
that in their in their salaries? I mean, I don't
get it. I don't get it. I don't get a
wellness component for me.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Well, you probably get paid more than your typical school
principle as well, John, But you know, the reality here
is I think if if the issue is that we
want principals to earn enough money to look after themselves,
and then we should deal with the salaries rather than
trying to create something that then that then generates other headaches.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
So let's me let's thraw aligned than to another revelation
this week, the teacher numbers are to record high. Why things?
Why are things so tough that people need pilares classes
to be paid for by the state.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Well, they're different issues.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Not not really, not really, We've got we've got school
saying and we can't cut we don't have enough teachers,
but the governments someone Actually the numbers are at a
record high.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Well, what we know about teaching is that there is
a relationship between people going into teaching and the broader economy.
So typically when unemployment goes up, the number of tea
people training to be teachers goes up. When unemployment is
very very low and the labor market is very tight,
fewer people go into teaching. So it's a bit of
a mixed blessing what we're seeing at the moment. We
see more people going into teaching, but that's also because
(06:25):
unemployment's going up, and there's a pattern over about forty
years where you can see that that's the case.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Here's something that you can drop in if someone else
asks you about these payments. Someone's been in touch saying
that our McDonald's restaurant managers have a wellness payment. How
about that?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So maybe you're wrong, John, Maybe there are other people
who have them.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well McDonald's managers. Yes, I'll give you that one. Let's
talk about three waters, well, not necessarily three waters, but
what the government replaced it with, which was like a
water done well. How do you feel about virtually under
this like a water done well, virtually untreated sewage being
allowed to be discharged into the ocean.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yeah. I've seen the comments from e CAN and from
the Parliamentary Commissions of the Environment, and I do share
their concerns. It does seem that the regulatory standard that
they're proposing for water discharges into the ocean allows for
near real sewage to be discharged into the ocean, and
I don't think that that's acceptable. So I think they've
got this one wrong. So I understand that they haven't
(07:27):
made final decisions, and that you know, they've been going
through a consultation process. So I hope that they will
take that feedback very seriously because the purpose of water
reform is to improve water infrastructure. We've got to invest
in it. We need cleaner water, we need to protect
the environment, protect people's health, and it seems that the
water standard that they've been consulting on it's not going
to do that.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
It seems to me that they're proposing to do this
because sixty percent of the public wastewater infrastructure requires new
consents in the next decade, and so it seems that
the way around it is by not requiring consents to
be of the standard that they have been. Is that
your reading of.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
It, Yeah, I think that clearly seems to be driving
some of it. But I think you know, we've got
to get real here. Our water infrastructure isn't up to scratch.
We had a plan as a government to do something
about it. The current government came in and scrapped there.
And now that what they're trying to do, it would
appear what they're trying to do as low as the standard,
rather than fix the problem. We've got to fix the problem.
We shouldn't be discharging wastewater like that into the ocean.
(08:24):
It's just it's not acceptable.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So you would never have done that.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Certainly would you know, I can't say what the consultation
process for the standard would have been under us, but
certainly that's if we got that kind of feedback, I'd
want to see a change.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
All right. Catch up in fortnite, Thanks for your time.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
For more from Catebory Mornings with John McDonald, listen live
to news talks It'd be christ Church from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from News Talk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Right now, that's time for our regular catch up with
Labor and Opposition leader Chris Hopkins. Chris kiddo, John, how
are you very well? We've been talking this morning on
the show for the first hour about tragic case in
christ Church where a woman hired a guy to do
some gardening, but then it emerged that he was living
at was a resident at hill Morton Hospital, and she
(00:32):
was in the dark, and the other people that he
had been doing gardening work for were in the dark
as well. And someone raised the investment in mental health
that Labor committed to. Any connection between your investment and
the types of facilities like hill Morton or is it
completely unfair to say that, you know, the labour's failure
(00:55):
to allocate this investment has any part in this.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm not quite sure what your question is, John. I mean,
I think we do need to invest more in mental health.
On the issue of whether someone should need to disclose
mental health to a prospective employer, That's not something that
I've that I've looked at, so I haven't followed that
particular issue. So I'm not quite sure what we're asking there.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
That's all right. Let's bring it back to comments in
my yesterday about to party Mari. You said they need
they need to focus on the basics, on the things
that people are really concerned about. What were you really telling.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Them, Well, I mean, I think you know, issues around jobs,
health and homes, education, those core areas that people want
to see us focused on. Other things that get raised
with me in Maori communities up and down New Zealand,
and I think that they want to see politicians focusing
on those issues.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I think the Marti Party made their point around the huka,
but I think actually people want to see us getting
back to debating the big issues.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Now have you heard from them since you made your comments?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I hope they've shed some feedback publicly, I think. But
you know, at the end of the day, I think
what Kiwis want to see us focused on is the
stuff that act mesters to them, rather than constantly talking
about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Chris Bishop, aside from getting himself out of favor with
Stan Walker, he's also out of favor with the number
of christ Church people and certainly the christ Church City
Council for saying no for the council's request to have
its own special version of housing intensification rules. This is
something that Labor was in favor of when it was
(02:30):
in government. What's your position on housing intensification now.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Well, we do need to intensify housing. We need to
build more houses. We've got a housing shortage in New Zealand,
We've got a housing affordability problem in New Zealand. And
I think one of the key ways that we sold
both of those things is to build more houses. And
that means in our cities, particularly around those major transport
hubs and transport areas, we're going to need to intensify more.
(02:57):
It is simply than you know what, all countries, we're
all cities that have a significantly growing population need.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
To grapple with Yeah, I agree, But the people who
were arguing against my position earlier this week, we're saying
that christ Church has a special thing with sunlight, and
people are concerned about losing sunlight. You are saying that
we're just going to get a grip and accept that
intensifications the future.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I think one of the realities, and it's not just
usialand but if you look around the world, at areas
where housing affordability has become a major problem, it's because
planning rules have favored the rights of existing homeowners over
the rights of the whole community to build more houses.
And you know, I think the medium density rules are
designed to really grapple with that narly problem and say, actually,
(03:44):
we do need to build more houses, because it's not
okay simply to say that we're going to allow to
get communities to block building more houses in perpetuity, which
means that houses just become more and more affordable and
few and few people can buy them.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
So rather than saying that's the kicking the guts to
Christchurch Council just needs to get a grip. Is that
what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I think there's a number of people on the Crossage
Council who have been saying, actually, it's time to move
on now, and I agree with them. I think Classage
doesn't need to move on and just get onto building houses.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
As a former Minister of Education, how did you feel
about the revelation that money has been spent by schools
on all sorts of things, including flesh leaving parties, pilates
classes and jackets for the teachers for the class photos.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, I mean I feel quite uncomfortable about quite a
range of that expenditure or though difficult to comment on
individual school cases, the Ministry of Education do need to
look at those. But I think that.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Was it your government's intention that the money would be
spent on pilates classes for teachers?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
No, no, absolutely not. But actually I think one of
the things that we should look at now is if
principal well being is the issue, then probably the thing
we could look at is a different way of doing this.
If we added natural principal salary and said, look, it's
a well being allowances you get as part of your salary.
How they choose to spend their money is then totally
up to them. I think that would be a better
(05:11):
way of doing it, rather than having the schools paying
this kind of expense.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
But these kind of expenses, But Chris, who else has
that in their in their salaries? I mean, I don't
get it. I don't get it. I don't get a
wellness component for me.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Well, you probably get paid more than your typical school
principle as well, John, But you know, the reality here
is I think if if the issue is that we
want principals to earn enough money to look after themselves,
and then we should deal with the salaries rather than
trying to create something that then that then generates other headaches.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
So let's me let's thraw aligned than to another revelation
this week, the teacher numbers are to record high. Why things?
Why are things so tough that people need pilares classes
to be paid for by the state.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Well, they're different issues.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Not not really, not really, We've got we've got school
saying and we can't cut we don't have enough teachers,
but the governments someone Actually the numbers are at a
record high.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Well, what we know about teaching is that there is
a relationship between people going into teaching and the broader economy.
So typically when unemployment goes up, the number of tea
people training to be teachers goes up. When unemployment is
very very low and the labor market is very tight,
fewer people go into teaching. So it's a bit of
a mixed blessing what we're seeing at the moment. We
see more people going into teaching, but that's also because
(06:25):
unemployment's going up, and there's a pattern over about forty
years where you can see that that's the case.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Here's something that you can drop in if someone else
asks you about these payments. Someone's been in touch saying
that our McDonald's restaurant managers have a wellness payment. How
about that?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So maybe you're wrong, John, Maybe there are other people
who have them.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well McDonald's managers. Yes, I'll give you that one. Let's
talk about three waters, well, not necessarily three waters, but
what the government replaced it with, which was like a
water done well. How do you feel about virtually under
this like a water done well, virtually untreated sewage being
allowed to be discharged into the ocean.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yeah. I've seen the comments from e CAN and from
the Parliamentary Commissions of the Environment, and I do share
their concerns. It does seem that the regulatory standard that
they're proposing for water discharges into the ocean allows for
near real sewage to be discharged into the ocean, and
I don't think that that's acceptable. So I think they've
got this one wrong. So I understand that they haven't
(07:27):
made final decisions, and that you know, they've been going
through a consultation process. So I hope that they will
take that feedback very seriously because the purpose of water
reform is to improve water infrastructure. We've got to invest
in it. We need cleaner water, we need to protect
the environment, protect people's health, and it seems that the
water standard that they've been consulting on it's not going
to do that.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
It seems to me that they're proposing to do this
because sixty percent of the public wastewater infrastructure requires new
consents in the next decade, and so it seems that
the way around it is by not requiring consents to
be of the standard that they have been. Is that
your reading of.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
It, Yeah, I think that clearly seems to be driving
some of it. But I think you know, we've got
to get real here. Our water infrastructure isn't up to scratch.
We had a plan as a government to do something
about it. The current government came in and scrapped there.
And now that what they're trying to do, it would
appear what they're trying to do as low as the standard,
rather than fix the problem. We've got to fix the problem.
We shouldn't be discharging wastewater like that into the ocean.
(08:24):
It's just it's not acceptable.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So you would never have done that.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Certainly would you know, I can't say what the consultation
process for the standard would have been under us, but
certainly that's if we got that kind of feedback, I'd
want to see a change.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
All right. Catch up in fortnite, Thanks for your time.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
For more from Catebory Mornings with John McDonald, listen live
to news talks It'd be christ Church from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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