October 28, 2025 • 10 mins
Labour had their Capital Gains Tax policy leaked earlier this week.
The tax would only apply to residential and commercial property sales, not any other taxable areas. A decision which has led some to question if this is really a Capital Gains Tax.
Labour leader Chris Hipkins had previously said that there would be no Capital Gains Tax under his leadership. However, he told John MacDonald that, 'after the election when we lost, I said, well, everything goes back on the table.'
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from News Talk Z'B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So I'm for a regular fortnight. They catch up with
Labor and Opposition leader Chris Hopkins.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
You know Chris here you good?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Ay?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
John?
Speaker 1 (00:19):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yeah? Good?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Any more leaks?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
No? No, and look it's not I'm not even quick
clear that it was right.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
And hold on old and let me come back to that.
Let me come back to that. I want to ask
you first what we've been talking about this morning so
far on the show, the New Zealand Initiative saying that
we need fifty more MPs. What's your response to that.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I think the New Zealand Initiative's report argues for a
number of other things as well, including fewer cabinet ministers,
more MPs and so on. I don't think that's the
most precing issues facing the country at the moment, to
be honest, John, I'm not sure that no one's coming
up to the street in me to me and saying, oh,
we need more members of Parliament.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Now what are we getting at? When you started to
tell me you don't actually think it was a leak
that ended up forcing you to make your capital gains
tax announcement yesterday. What are you announcing? What are you saying?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Well, a lot of people were involved in preparing the policy.
It did make it into the public domain a few
days earlier that we had been planning for, but that
could simply have been someone speaking to someone who's spoke
to someone. If it was a deliberate leak, though, and
we find out who it was, then that person will
no longer be in the New Zealand Labor Party.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Are you just saying that to be as part of
damage controlled try and make it appear that you're a tight,
happy ship.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
No, not at all. I'm just saying it's almost always
impossible to find out how these things have happened. Your
journalistic friends don't generally tell us who tells them things,
and it's almost impossible to find out.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And you've in the past you've endorsed whistle blowers, so
be a bit rich of you to come crashing down
on some of wudn't it?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Well, No, I don't think there's any whistle blowing here.
This is a policy that was going to be announced anyway.
Unfortunately you had to be brought forward to early. But
it gives us an opportunity a couple more days to
go out and explain to New Zealand is what it
is that we're proposing to do, including the three free doctors'
visits that we're proposing every New Zealander should have access to.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
All right, well, come to that. Two years ago you
said this, You said, under a government I lead, there
will be no capital gains tax. What's changed since then?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
We lost the election. I was very clear when I
made that statement that I was talking about in the
next term of government. We clearly weren't in government for
this current term of parliament. And after the election when
we lost, I said, well, everything goes back on the table.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
And so why are you now supportive of it when
previously you weren't.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I've always been reasonably supportive of a capital gains tax.
I said that we wouldn't do it had we been
elected for this term of government. We weren't prepared to
campaign on it. I didn't think that right at that
time it was the right thing for New Zealand for
us to be focused on that. But I do think
that a capital gains tax is something that New Zealand
(03:06):
to tackle. So why it doesn't have one.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, sure, So why is now the right time to
be looking at it and talking about it when two
years ago it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
We're in a very different situation now to what we
were in a few years ago. If you look at
what's happened with the overall state of our economy. We
have to make some changes. We've got to get investment
out of the housing market into productive investment that's creating jobs.
We cannot sustain two hundred New Zealanders a day giving
(03:35):
up and leaving the country because they can get better
pay elsewhere, when they can afford to buy their own
homes elsewhere. They should be able to do both of
those things here in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So you talk about wanting people to stay here, But
how can you also make the claim that a capital
gains tax wouldn't lead to higher rents? How can you
say that, because it would There'd be.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
No justification for that whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
You only pay justifications.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
You tell your rental property yes.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And then you buy another one, and then you want
to make up for the for the taxation loss that
you've just incurred, and you'd be looking to recoup that, wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
You You pay the capital gain on the sale of
a property, not other purchase of a property. So there
no justification for increasing rents.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
All right, But justification and reality can be two different things, can't.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
They Well, only if the landlords are trying to rip
off their tenants.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
What makes you think the company or the country can
cope with giving everybody three free doctor's visits.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
We've set out a plan that will help to free
up about four and a half million GP visits each
year to cope with any increase in demand. The results
that flows from what does that you've run in a title,
which are three free doctors visits?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
How are you going to free How do you free
up four and a half million GP visits? How do
you do that?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
So we've set out a pretty comprehensive plan that we
released the details of yesterday. It includes providing clinics more
tools to improve doctors the GP product, to provide better
triaging services, to expand the number of clinics that are
available so that they're getting into areas where there's currently shortages.
So it's a pretty big plan that we've put it there.
(05:18):
We've worked with GP representatives to develop it so that
we know that there are tools in there that are
going to work for GPS.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So why should someone like you who earns a decent living,
someone like me, who earns a decent living, Why should
you and I get free GP visits?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Because universal free healthcare is a basic entitlement that all
New Zealanders should have access to. All New Zealanders pay taxes,
that higher income New Zealanders pay more tax and everyone
should have access to a quality public health system, regardless
of where you live or how much you earn.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
So if you were Prime Minister, and which would then
mean that you were able to introduce this capital gains
tax and you were earning somewhere in the realm of
five hundred thousand dollars, you'd have no qualms taking your
three free doctors' visits.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Ever, I said, I want all.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
New Zealanders the questions, I know what you've said.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
That includes me, So it includes me, it includes you,
includes everybody else, because ultimately, if we go to the
doctor when we need to and we all stay healthy,
it actually eases pressure on our health system. Yes, I know,
but there ensure that everyone gets health care they need
when they need it, rather than ending up in emergency
departments because they didn't go to the doctor.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
That's not the answer the question. The question was if
you're Prime Minister, which means you can bring in this
capital gains tax, and you're running around half a million bucks,
you'd be quite comfortable going to the doctor for free
three times a year because you're entitled to it.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I think all New Zealanders should have access to free healthcare,
just as all of our kids deserve access to free
public education, even people, even people in education, and everyone
gets access to New Zealand superannuation.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
How can you say, how can you say that someone
earning half a million dollars a year deserves to get
three free doctors visits? How can you justify that?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Because I want to have all New Zealanders having access
to it.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, I know, but it's very different Pross. It's very
different someone earning half a millain. It's very different to
someone on the minimum wage. Well, because and I've never
heard it said. I've never heard it said that someone
earning half a million dollars doesn't go to the doctor
because they can't afford it.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Well, if you want a means test health care, that's
an argument you can make. I'm not going to say
to a cancer patient. Sorry about you, and too much
money is you're going to pay for your own health care,
but healthcare should not be means tested.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
How do you feel about the government looking into Glory
Vale and you've got the Louise Upston who was heading
a panel or a group of ten ministers saying that
she's not ruling out closing the place down.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I'm very comfortable with the government looking at Gloria of Vale.
I'm very concerned about it. We had a cross government
group that were looking very actively at Gloria Vale. The
current government disbanded that two years ago when they became
the government. They seem to have re established it. I
think that's a good thing. There are a lot of
very concerning things about Gloria Veil.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Right, and so how do you feel about the government
threatening to close it down?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Well, I don't know that you can practically close it
down because you can't tell people where they're going to live.
People can still live where they choose to live. But
there's more that government can do to protect vulnerable people
within Gloria of Vale, particularly the children.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And what would that be.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Well, I mean, government agencies have the power to do
things or anger Tamadiki have the power in the worst
cases to actually remove children from the situation, and I
think they should absolutely have that option on the table.
And what education agencies need to look at whether or
not they should be allowed to operate educational facilities within
Gloria Vale. I think all of those things need to
be very closely looked at.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And when you were Prime minister, what did you do
about Gloria Vale?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
And I said, we had a group of the cross
government group which included the police or Unger, Tamadiki education
working on the issue to provide recommendations to government.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
That's the thing is what are the government story saying?
The storyl saying got agents looking at it. But what
did you as prime minister and what did your government
do to remedy the situation at Gloria Vale.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
We did have a range of things. Remember we have
the Education Review Office going into Gloria Vale to look
at their school. There were a range of different things
that we were doing. Within the law, you can't actually
force people to move, but we were making sure that
we were intervening where there was evidence to suggest that
they know we should have intervened. One of their whoes
was works. Theyfe intervened to ensure that everybody gets paid
(09:36):
the minimum wage and people weren't being exploited like slaves.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
How do you wat your interpretation of the fact that
Gloria Vail is actually appealing, as we speak, appealing that ruling.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Well, you know, everyone's entitled to their day in course,
and so it's important that I don't get a hear
of debt, but I stand by the exit that we
took in government.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
How do you feel about the curriculum changes? One final thing?
The curriculum changes in particularly I'm curious about the history curriculum,
and David Seymour says it's taking the politics out of
history in schools. What's your view.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Well, David Sema seems to think that anything that mentions
Mardy makes it political. That the reality is, you know,
whitewashing the New Zealand school curriculum. And that's literally what
David Sema was talking about is in the way forward,
we should be open to the fact that some of
our history isn't so pretty and kids should be able
to learn about that.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
All right, talk to you in two weeks time.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Thanks Chris for more from Caterbory Mornings with John McDonald.
Listen live to news talks It'd be christ Church from
nine am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from News Talk Z'B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So I'm for a regular fortnight. They catch up with
Labor and Opposition leader Chris Hopkins.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
You know Chris here you good?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Ay?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
John?
Speaker 1 (00:19):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yeah? Good?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Any more leaks?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
No? No, and look it's not I'm not even quick
clear that it was right.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
And hold on old and let me come back to that.
Let me come back to that. I want to ask
you first what we've been talking about this morning so
far on the show, the New Zealand Initiative saying that
we need fifty more MPs. What's your response to that.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I think the New Zealand Initiative's report argues for a
number of other things as well, including fewer cabinet ministers,
more MPs and so on. I don't think that's the
most precing issues facing the country at the moment, to
be honest, John, I'm not sure that no one's coming
up to the street in me to me and saying, oh,
we need more members of Parliament.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Now what are we getting at? When you started to
tell me you don't actually think it was a leak
that ended up forcing you to make your capital gains
tax announcement yesterday. What are you announcing? What are you saying?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Well, a lot of people were involved in preparing the policy.
It did make it into the public domain a few
days earlier that we had been planning for, but that
could simply have been someone speaking to someone who's spoke
to someone. If it was a deliberate leak, though, and
we find out who it was, then that person will
no longer be in the New Zealand Labor Party.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Are you just saying that to be as part of
damage controlled try and make it appear that you're a tight,
happy ship.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
No, not at all. I'm just saying it's almost always
impossible to find out how these things have happened. Your
journalistic friends don't generally tell us who tells them things,
and it's almost impossible to find out.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And you've in the past you've endorsed whistle blowers, so
be a bit rich of you to come crashing down
on some of wudn't it?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Well, No, I don't think there's any whistle blowing here.
This is a policy that was going to be announced anyway.
Unfortunately you had to be brought forward to early. But
it gives us an opportunity a couple more days to
go out and explain to New Zealand is what it
is that we're proposing to do, including the three free doctors'
visits that we're proposing every New Zealander should have access to.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
All right, well, come to that. Two years ago you
said this, You said, under a government I lead, there
will be no capital gains tax. What's changed since then?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
We lost the election. I was very clear when I
made that statement that I was talking about in the
next term of government. We clearly weren't in government for
this current term of parliament. And after the election when
we lost, I said, well, everything goes back on the table.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
And so why are you now supportive of it when
previously you weren't.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I've always been reasonably supportive of a capital gains tax.
I said that we wouldn't do it had we been
elected for this term of government. We weren't prepared to
campaign on it. I didn't think that right at that
time it was the right thing for New Zealand for
us to be focused on that. But I do think
that a capital gains tax is something that New Zealand
(03:06):
to tackle. So why it doesn't have one.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, sure, So why is now the right time to
be looking at it and talking about it when two
years ago it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
We're in a very different situation now to what we
were in a few years ago. If you look at
what's happened with the overall state of our economy. We
have to make some changes. We've got to get investment
out of the housing market into productive investment that's creating jobs.
We cannot sustain two hundred New Zealanders a day giving
(03:35):
up and leaving the country because they can get better
pay elsewhere, when they can afford to buy their own
homes elsewhere. They should be able to do both of
those things here in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So you talk about wanting people to stay here, But
how can you also make the claim that a capital
gains tax wouldn't lead to higher rents? How can you
say that, because it would There'd be.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
No justification for that whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
You only pay justifications.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
You tell your rental property yes.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And then you buy another one, and then you want
to make up for the for the taxation loss that
you've just incurred, and you'd be looking to recoup that, wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
You You pay the capital gain on the sale of
a property, not other purchase of a property. So there
no justification for increasing rents.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
All right, But justification and reality can be two different things, can't.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
They Well, only if the landlords are trying to rip
off their tenants.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
What makes you think the company or the country can
cope with giving everybody three free doctor's visits.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
We've set out a plan that will help to free
up about four and a half million GP visits each
year to cope with any increase in demand. The results
that flows from what does that you've run in a title,
which are three free doctors visits?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
How are you going to free How do you free
up four and a half million GP visits? How do
you do that?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
So we've set out a pretty comprehensive plan that we
released the details of yesterday. It includes providing clinics more
tools to improve doctors the GP product, to provide better
triaging services, to expand the number of clinics that are
available so that they're getting into areas where there's currently shortages.
So it's a pretty big plan that we've put it there.
(05:18):
We've worked with GP representatives to develop it so that
we know that there are tools in there that are
going to work for GPS.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So why should someone like you who earns a decent living,
someone like me, who earns a decent living, Why should
you and I get free GP visits?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Because universal free healthcare is a basic entitlement that all
New Zealanders should have access to. All New Zealanders pay taxes,
that higher income New Zealanders pay more tax and everyone
should have access to a quality public health system, regardless
of where you live or how much you earn.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
So if you were Prime Minister, and which would then
mean that you were able to introduce this capital gains
tax and you were earning somewhere in the realm of
five hundred thousand dollars, you'd have no qualms taking your
three free doctors' visits.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Ever, I said, I want all.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
New Zealanders the questions, I know what you've said.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
That includes me, So it includes me, it includes you,
includes everybody else, because ultimately, if we go to the
doctor when we need to and we all stay healthy,
it actually eases pressure on our health system. Yes, I know,
but there ensure that everyone gets health care they need
when they need it, rather than ending up in emergency
departments because they didn't go to the doctor.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
That's not the answer the question. The question was if
you're Prime Minister, which means you can bring in this
capital gains tax, and you're running around half a million bucks,
you'd be quite comfortable going to the doctor for free
three times a year because you're entitled to it.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I think all New Zealanders should have access to free healthcare,
just as all of our kids deserve access to free
public education, even people, even people in education, and everyone
gets access to New Zealand superannuation.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
How can you say, how can you say that someone
earning half a million dollars a year deserves to get
three free doctors visits? How can you justify that?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Because I want to have all New Zealanders having access
to it.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, I know, but it's very different Pross. It's very
different someone earning half a millain. It's very different to
someone on the minimum wage. Well, because and I've never
heard it said. I've never heard it said that someone
earning half a million dollars doesn't go to the doctor
because they can't afford it.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Well, if you want a means test health care, that's
an argument you can make. I'm not going to say
to a cancer patient. Sorry about you, and too much
money is you're going to pay for your own health care,
but healthcare should not be means tested.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
How do you feel about the government looking into Glory
Vale and you've got the Louise Upston who was heading
a panel or a group of ten ministers saying that
she's not ruling out closing the place down.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I'm very comfortable with the government looking at Gloria of Vale.
I'm very concerned about it. We had a cross government
group that were looking very actively at Gloria Vale. The
current government disbanded that two years ago when they became
the government. They seem to have re established it. I
think that's a good thing. There are a lot of
very concerning things about Gloria Veil.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Right, and so how do you feel about the government
threatening to close it down?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Well, I don't know that you can practically close it
down because you can't tell people where they're going to live.
People can still live where they choose to live. But
there's more that government can do to protect vulnerable people
within Gloria of Vale, particularly the children.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And what would that be.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Well, I mean, government agencies have the power to do
things or anger Tamadiki have the power in the worst
cases to actually remove children from the situation, and I
think they should absolutely have that option on the table.
And what education agencies need to look at whether or
not they should be allowed to operate educational facilities within
Gloria Vale. I think all of those things need to
be very closely looked at.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And when you were Prime minister, what did you do
about Gloria Vale?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
And I said, we had a group of the cross
government group which included the police or Unger, Tamadiki education
working on the issue to provide recommendations to government.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
That's the thing is what are the government story saying?
The storyl saying got agents looking at it. But what
did you as prime minister and what did your government
do to remedy the situation at Gloria Vale.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
We did have a range of things. Remember we have
the Education Review Office going into Gloria Vale to look
at their school. There were a range of different things
that we were doing. Within the law, you can't actually
force people to move, but we were making sure that
we were intervening where there was evidence to suggest that
they know we should have intervened. One of their whoes
was works. Theyfe intervened to ensure that everybody gets paid
(09:36):
the minimum wage and people weren't being exploited like slaves.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
How do you wat your interpretation of the fact that
Gloria Vail is actually appealing, as we speak, appealing that ruling.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Well, you know, everyone's entitled to their day in course,
and so it's important that I don't get a hear
of debt, but I stand by the exit that we
took in government.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
How do you feel about the curriculum changes? One final thing?
The curriculum changes in particularly I'm curious about the history curriculum,
and David Seymour says it's taking the politics out of
history in schools. What's your view.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Well, David Sema seems to think that anything that mentions
Mardy makes it political. That the reality is, you know,
whitewashing the New Zealand school curriculum. And that's literally what
David Sema was talking about is in the way forward,
we should be open to the fact that some of
our history isn't so pretty and kids should be able
to learn about that.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
All right, talk to you in two weeks time.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Thanks Chris for more from Caterbory Mornings with John McDonald.
Listen live to news talks It'd be christ Church from
nine am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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