John MacDonald: An apprenticeship is anything but second-best

I always have and always will be a huge fan of on-the-job training. Which is why I think it’s brilliant that we’ve got an education expert saying today that the apprenticeship system needs an overhaul.  

And not only that, he wants to see schools doing more, and is suggesting they could offer a trades preparation qualification to create a pipeline of new apprentices - but also to remove the stigma that an apprenticeship is second fiddle to a university degree.   

Michael Johnston from the NZ Initiative think-tank says in Germany, 50% of school-leavers end up in working in the trades. But here in New Zealand, a university education is given much higher status than apprenticeship training.  

He says we need a more coherent apprenticeship system connecting schools, the trades and the training organisations.   

Michael Johnston is saying that part of the problem is that trades historically have been seen or have been promoted as the thing kids do if they’re not bright enough to go to university or not interested in going to university.  

Which is crazy for a number of reasons – for starters, I marvel all the time at what tradespeople know and what they can do.  

He says maybe we also need some sort of bonding system that would keep require tradespeople once they’ve finished their apprenticeship to stick around and not bugger off somewhere else.   

He says that would probably encourage more employers to take someone on in the first place. He might have a point there, but I suspect that businesses look at apprentices and just see extra work.  

I don't think they’re necessarily concerned whether the apprentice is going to stick around once they’ve got their qualification.  

But the idea of his that I really like, is this bit where he says schools need to up their game when it comes to promoting trades and getting kids ready to move into a trade.  

Because I think, over the years, schools —but, in particular, school careers advisors— have pointed kids in the wrong direction, making them think that a university degree is the be-all and end-all.  

Another reason why I’m so excited at the ideas Michael Johnston is pushing today, is that on-the-job training is how I started my working life. So maybe I’m biased.  

I wanted to be a journalist, so I did a cadetship at the local newspaper.  

And, since then, I have been dismayed at how so many people have been sucked in by this idea that a university degree is way better than an apprenticeship or any other form of on-the-job training.  

Of course, there are some professions where people have to go to university – law, medicine, engineering are examples.  

But I have never understood why a degree makes someone a better journalist, for example.  

The other great thing about apprenticeships is that someone can start one, realise they're not actually cut out for that particular trade, and move on to something else without racking up huge debt and then, after three or four years, realising they’re not cut out for the career they studied for.  

A guy I went to school with took on a plumbing apprenticeship when he left. Realised pretty quickly it wasn’t him, then moved an electrical apprenticeship and flourished.  

The other thing about all of this is that it seems we’ve been saying forever that we need more apprenticeships, and we need to take the trades more seriously, but nothing seems to have changed.  

Maybe it’s because —if we’re really honest— we’ve been so brainwashed over the years and still believe that that you only do a trade if you’re not bright enough to go to university.  

Hopefully, there aren’t any careers advisors who still hold on to that view. Because I agree completely that the apprenticeship system needs an overhaul and the

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from Newstalk ZB. I have.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Always and always will be a huge fan of on
the job training, which is why I think it's brilliant
that we've got an education expert saying today that the
apprenticeship scheme or the system needs an overhaul. And not
only that he wants to see schools doing more and

(00:36):
is suggesting they could offer a trades preparation qualification to
create a pipeline of new apprentices but also, and I
think this is more important to remove the stigma that
an apprenticeship is second fiddle to a university degree. Now,
Michael Johnston is the person speaking out today, is involved
with the New Zealand Initiative think tank, and here's how

(00:58):
he sums up the situation.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
At the moment, university education has much higher status in
New Zealand than apprentice ship training. That can trust really
strongly with countries like Germany, which has half of its
young people leaving school going straight into apprenticeships. We need
to do much.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
More at various levels of the system to bring together
apprenticeship training into a coherent system so that young people
are aware of its existence and also see it as
a high status option.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Aman to that. The way they're just on that, the
way they do things in Germany sounds brilliant in it
fifty percent of the kids living school going into apprenticeships.
So Michael Johnston, that's the chat there. He's heard there.
He's saying that part of the problem is that trades
historically have been seen or have been promoted as the
thing kids do. If they're not bright enough to go

(01:54):
to university, you're not interested in going to university, which
is crazy, crazy for a number of reasons, a whole
lot of reasons. I mean for starters. I marvel all
the time at what trades people know and what they
can do, which is why Michael Johnson says that we
need schools, the trades, and the training organizations to be

(02:18):
better connected so that some of these big brains end
up doing the jobs they're best suited for and not
being forced to university. He says maybe we also might
need some sort of bonding system that would keep or
require trades people once to finish their apprenticeship to stick
around and not take off somewhere else. He says that

(02:40):
would probably encourage more employers to take someone on in
the first place. He might have a point there, but
I suspect that businesses look at apprentices and just see
the extra work from day one. They're not thinking three
years ahead. I just don't think they're necessarily concerned whether
the apprentice is going to stick around or not once
they've got their qualification. But the idea of his that
I really like is this bit where he says schools

(03:03):
need to up their game when it comes to promoting
trades and getting kids ready to move into a trade.
Because I was going to say, I think, well, I
don't just think. I know that over the years, schools
and in particular school's careers advisors, they've pointed a lot
of kids in the wrong direction, making them think that

(03:24):
a university degree is that be all end all, haven't they.
Another reason why I'm so excited at the ideas Michael
Johnston is pushing today is that on the job training
it's how I started my working life, so it may
be unbiased. Maybe you might have heard me say before
that when I left school, I wanted to be a journalist,
so I did what they called a cadet ship at
the local newspaper in Dunedin. And since then I have

(03:47):
been dismayed at how so many people have been sucked
in by this idea that a university degree is way
better than an apprenticeship or any other form of on
the job training. And of course there are some professions
where people have to go to university. Law, medicine, engineering
their examples, although there are different types of engineer, but
you might have to go to a polytech. But I

(04:10):
have never understood, for example, why a degree makes someone
a better journalist. The other great thing about apprenticeships and
versus probably not a great thing for employers, but someone
can start an apprenticeship, realize they're not actually cut out
for that particular trade, and move on to something else
without racking up huge debt at university and then after

(04:31):
three or four years realizing I'm not actually cut out
for the thing I studied for, not really cut out
to be an engineer. I'm not really cut out to
be a doctor, you know, I feel faint at the
side of blood. Might be a slight exaggeration. A guy
who went to school with for example, he took on
a plumbing apprenticeship. When he left, he realized pretty quickly
it wasn't for him moved on to an electrical apprenticeship

(04:55):
and he's flourished ever since. And the other thing about
all of this is that that seems we've been saying
forever that we need more apprenticeships and we need to
make the trades, you know, taken a seriously, but nothing
seems to have changed, and maybe so everything about it.
Maybe it's because if we are really honest, maybe we've

(05:18):
been so brainwashed over the years that you only do
a trade if you're not bright enough to go to university,
that we're part of the problem as well. We probably
don't want to admit it. Maybe deep down some of
us still believe it. I don't for a minute, but
some might do. And hopefully there aren't any careers advisors
who still hold on to that view, because I agree

(05:40):
one hundred percent with this education expert saying today that
the apprenticeship system leads an overhaul and that schools should
be offering a trades preparation qualification to create a pipeline
of new apprentices and to remove the stigma that an
apprenticeship is second best to a university degree.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
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