John MacDonald: Detaining young shoplifters is a dangerous idea

The Government wants to free-up the laws relating to citizens' arrests. But should this include letting retail staff detain children and young people caught shoplifting?  

The Chief Children’s Commissioner, Dr Claire Achmad, is saying today that it shouldn’t. And I agree with her. But not for the same reason.   

She says allowing shop owners and shop staff to detain young people would contravene the right of children to be free from violence. 

She says that right applies to kids anywhere and everywhere - including in shops and retail outlets. Even when they’re nicking stuff.

Dr Achmad says shop staff have every right to ask for stolen stuff to be handed over. But it wouldn’t be fair on the young offenders if the people in the shops also had the right to detain them. And I agree with her. But not for the same reason.  

Overall, I’m 50/50 on this idea of citizens arrests.  

At the moment, there are limitations on when and where they can be done. But the Government wants to loosen those limitations. And isn’t ruling out loosening them to the point where shopkeepers could detain kids stealing stuff.

When I say I’m 50/50, I’m all for security guards getting stronger powers to detain people. Providing they get the right training. But as for the rest of us. Forget about it. As for shopkeepers arresting young people. Forget about it. Because it’s got danger written all over it.  

Danger from over-enthusiastic vigilantes going overboard. And danger for the people taking these young crims on. 

Which is why I don’t want to see people in shops being given the green light to arrest or detain kids and young people stealing their stuff.

That's where I differ from the Chief Children's Commissioner. She's opposed because of the kids' right to be protected from violence. I'm opposed because of the danger to retailers who, collectively, lose about $2.5 billion every year through retail crime. 

I detest shoplifting just as much as the next person. But if we give shop owners and shop workers the power to make citizens arrests of kids and young people caught stealing their stuff any time, any place - what do you think will happen?

It would mean unfair pressure being placed on, often young, retail workers to intervene and put themselves at risk.

I know some retailers would tell their staff either not to intervene or only do so if they felt confident enough to.

But there would also be some employers who would see a law change as a licence to require their staff to intervene. And, as we’ve seen countless times, just because someone is 11, 12 or 13, it doesn’t make them any less of a risk or less or a danger.

There are kids who carry weapons. There are kids who have no regard for other people and who are quite prepared to use these weapons. 

Do we really want shop staff being given the powers to take these kids on and to try and arrest them? Of course we don’t. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from NEWSTALKSB.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
So, the government wants to free up the laws relating
to citizens' arrests. But should this include this is the question.
Should this include letting retail staff detain children and young
people caught shoplifting? If you ask the Chief Children's Commissioner,
she says no, Doctor Clair Akhmad, she's saying today that

(00:37):
it shouldn't. And look, I agree with her, but not
for the same reason. She says. Allowing shop owners and
shop staff to detain young people to make citizens arrests
of young people, she says that would contravene the right
of children to be free from violence. And she says

(00:57):
that right applies to kids anywhere and everywhere, including and
shops and retail outlets, even when they're nicking stuff. That's
what she's saying. They've got a right to free of violence.
Doctor Aukmanz says shop staff have every right to ask
for the stolen stuff to be handed back, but it

(01:18):
wouldn't be fair on the young offenders if the people
in the shops also had the right to detain them.
And as I say, I agree with her, but not
for the same reason, which I'll explain in a second. Overall, overall,
I'm fifty to fifty on this idea of citizens arrests.
At the moment, there are limitations on when and where

(01:41):
they can be done, but the government wants to loosen
those limitations, and today it isn't ruling out loosening them
to the point where shopkeepers could detain kids stealing their stuff.
And look, when I say I'm fifty to fifty, are
more four security guards getting stronger powers to detain people, providing,
providing they get the right training. As for the rest

(02:03):
of us, forget about it. As for shopkeepers, forget it
it because it's got danger ridden all over it. And
as for shopkeepers detaining kids nicking stuff, forget about it.
The whole thing's got danger written all over it. First
of all, danger from over enthusiastic vigilantes going overboard, and

(02:26):
danger for the people taking these crimson And what's more,
what the government's talking about overall, anyway, goes completely against
everything the police tell us. Every time you hear a
story about someone taking on a crim what did the
cops say? We shouldn't have done that? Which is why
I don't want to see people in shops being given
the green light to arrest or detain kids and young

(02:48):
people stealing their stuff. Why is that because the danger
wouldn't be much different whether someone's an adult, whether someone's
detaining an adult, a young person or a child, there's danger.
And we're a differ though, from the Chief Children's Commissioner,
who was saying to day that these kids have rights
to be free of violence, despite the fact, despite the

(03:10):
fact they don't give a damn about the rights of
the retailers who collectively lose about two and a half
billion dollars every year through retail crime. Where I differ
from the Children's Commissioner is that I don't want to
see people having the right to arrest kids because of
the danger the people doing the arresting can find themselves in.
You know, I detest shoplifting just as much as the

(03:31):
next person, just as much as the next person, And
I can't quite believe how widespread this belief has become
among some people who think they can just help themselves
to other people's stuff. It's hard to believe how widespread
and how commonplace it's become, almost how accepted it's become.
But If we give shop owners and shop workers the
power to make citizens arrests of kids and young people

(03:54):
caught stealing their stuff any time, any place, what do
you think would happen. It will mean unfair pressure being
placed on often young retail workers intervene and put themselves
at risk. I mean, I know some retailers would tell
their staff either not to intervene, or only intervene if
they felt confident enough to and when I don't where

(04:15):
there will. There would also be some employers who would
see a law change as a license to require their
staff to intervene. And as we've seen countless times, just
because someone's eleven, twelve thirteen does not make them any
less of a risk or less of a danger. There
are kids who carry weapons. There are kids who have

(04:36):
no regard at all for the people or for other people,
and these kids are quite prepared to use these weapons.
And do we really want shop staff being given the
powers to take these kids on and to try and
arrest them. Well, of course we don't. Well that's what
I think. But what about you? How do you feel

(04:58):
about the Chief Children's Commissioner coming up today and saying
that any changes to the citizens arrests. Laws must not
allow retail staff to detain kids and young people because
it would contravene the right of these kids to be
free from violence. She says, you know, you've got every
right to say you don't hand the stuff back, but
it wouldn't be fair on the young crims if staff
or the owners had the right to detain them. I

(05:19):
feel the same, but only because of the risk it
would create for the shop staff.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
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