John MacDonald: The Pope won't change the world, but needs to be part of it

I don’t often quote Albert Einstein, but I’m going to today.  

“Those who believe that politics and religion do not mix, understand neither.” 

And if the new pope didn’t understand that before today, he will now. Because Cardinal Robert Prevost —who will be known as Leo XIV— has only just been elected and already he’s being lobbied by politicians around the world.

He’s the first pope to come from the United States, and the pressure on him to start making noises on global issues has been pretty much immediate.  

As I was following the live coverage this morning, Volodymyr Zelensky was already on social media saying that he hopes the new pope will condemn Russia’s invasion of his country. Saying that he wants the Pope to push for international law to be upheld, to condemn Russia’s military aggression and to do whatever he can to protect the rights of innocent civilians.  

Colombia's president was at it too. Saying that he hopes the new pope will back Latino migrants living in the United States who he says have been “humiliated” by the current administration. 

Which raises two questions: 1. How much political sway does the Pope actually carry? And 2. Is it the job of a religious leader to try and influence global politics?  

I’m not convinced that the Pope does actually carry much sway. He does in terms of leading the Catholic Church, but that doesn’t mean that the Pope and other religious leaders can or should hide away and just focus on running the shop.  

Because if they do that, they become irrelevant. 

Take the British royal family. They’ve been criticised over the years for being out of touch —for being too removed from the real world— and look at what’s happened to their power and influence.  

The same goes for the Catholic Church. The same goes for all religions.  

If they ignore what’s going on in the real world —and if they don’t have a view on what’s happening in the real world— then they will become irrelevant in people’s eyes.  

I was reading some comments by Margaret Susan Thompson, who is a professor of history and political science in the United States, and she was saying that the Pope doesn’t necessarily change the world, but he can influence the way Catholics think about global issues.  

She says: "Ultimately, the Pope has very limited political power in terms of shifting peoples' opinions on an issue. But his moral guidance is still helpful to many Catholics.”  

Not that the new pope’s predecessor, Pope Francis, shied away from saying a thing or two. 

I don’t think his comments carried any particular weight —in terms of influencing outcomes— but he did exactly what I think the new pope needs to do. What all religious leaders need to do. Even if their actual influence is limited, they need to show their relevance in the modern world.  

Pope Francis did condemn the war in Ukraine. He said Russia had carried out an unjustified act of aggression. He called Ukraine a "martyred nation" and appealed for peace pretty much every time he appeared in public.  

But he didn't stop the war. He also didn’t stop what’s going on in Gaza, even though he did video calls to a Catholic church in Gaza every day.  

But that doesn't mean he shouldn’t have done it, and it doesn’t mean that the new pope shouldn’t do it, either.  

Because, especially in times like these, it is critical that the Pope and all religious leaders of all types show that they are part of the real world that we all live in.   

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I don't often quote Albert Einstein. I quote all sorts
of people, but I don't often quote Einstein. But I'm
going to today. He once said, those who believe that
politics and religion do not mix understand neither. And if
the new Pope didn't understand that himself before today, he

(00:36):
will now because Cardinal Robert Prevost, who will be known
as Leo the fourteenth, he's only just been elected only
a few hours ago, and already he's been lobbied by
politicians around the world wanting him to do things like
condemn the war in Ukraine. They want him to get
better treatment for migrants in the United States. Is actually

(01:00):
the first pope to come from the United States, and
the pressure on him to start making noises on global
issues has been pretty much immediate. As I was following
the live coverage earlier this morning, straight away ping there
was Volodi Mezelenski already on social media saying that he
hopes the new Pipe will condemn Russia's invasion of his country,

(01:24):
saying that he wants the Pipe to push for international
law to be upheld to condemn Russia's military aggression, and
he wants the Pipe to do whatever he can to
protect the rights of innocent civilians. He wasn't on his own,
Columbia's president he was out there as well, ping. He
was saying that he hopes the new pope will back

(01:45):
Latino migrants living in the States, who he says have
been humiliated. It's a word he used, humiliated by the
current administration. And for me, what this all does is
it raises two questions that we're considering this morning. One
how much political sway does the Pope actually have? And

(02:07):
two is at the job of a religious leader of
any type to try and influence global politics. Oh, when
it comes down to it, I'm I don't think the
Pipe does actually carry much way he does in terms
of leading the Catholic Church. But show me a pope
who has stopped a war in its tracks, for example.

(02:32):
But that doesn't mean I'm not saying, you know, it
doesn't mean that the Pope and other religious leaders can
or should hide away. I'm not saying the Pipe should
just focus on running the shop at the Vatican, because
if he does that, if any religious leader does that,
they will become irrelevant. Take the take the British royal family.

(02:53):
Oh what's the connection there, I'll tell you the connection.
They've been criticized over the years, haven't they for being
out of touch, for being too removed from the real world.
And look look look at what's happened to them with
their power and their influence minished big time. And the
same goes for the Catholic Church. The same goes for
all religious organizations, all religions, if they ignore what's going

(03:16):
on in the real world. And I suppose the conversation
today is largely focused on the Catholic Church. But if
they ignore what's going on in the real world, and
if they don't have a view on what's happening in
the real world, what happens, they will become relevant or
irrelevant in people's lives. I was reading earlier some comments

(03:38):
by Margaret Susan Thompson. She's a professor of history and
political science and the States, and she was saying that
the Pope doesn't necessarily change the world, but he can
influence the way Catholics think about the world, the way
that Catholics think about global issues. She says, quote ultimately,
and I'm with her on that. She says, Ultimately, the

(03:58):
Pope has very limited political power in terms of shifting
people's opinions on an issue, but his moral guyudence is
still helpful to many Catholics. Not that the new pope's
predecessor of Pope for Ances shied away from saying a
thing or too. Ay. I don't think his comments carried
any particular weight in terms of influencing outcomes, but he

(04:22):
did exactly what I think the new Pope needs to do.
What all religious leaders need to do, even if their
actual influence is limited. The key thing is to show
their relevance in the modern world. Pope Parantis there was
anti capitalism, he was big on the environment, He promoted tolerance.
He did actually, he did condemn the war in Ukraine

(04:44):
very clearly. He said Russia had carried out an unjustified
active aggression, and he called Ukraine a martyred nation, and
he appealed for peace pretty much every time he appeared
in public. But he didn't stop the war, did he.
He also didn't stop what's going on in Gaza, even
though he did video calls to a Catholic church in
Gaza every day. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have done it,

(05:07):
and it doesn't mean that the new Pope shouldn't do
it either, because, especially in times like these, it is
critical that the Pope and all religious leaders of all
types show that they're part of the real world, that
we all live in the real world with its Swartz
and everything.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
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