John MacDonald: Will police and judges deliver what the Govt wants?

The Government has obviously decided that its law and order week. It started with tougher sentences for people who attack first responders and prison officers – which is a good thing.   

Then it was tougher sentences for people who dish out coward punches – that can’t come soon enough.  

And the latest are these tougher measures to try and do something about the rate of shoplifting. Again, something I’ve got no argument against.  

But here’s where the seed of doubt starts to emerge.   

When it comes to crime, pretty much the only thing governments can do is make sure there are laws in place to try and deal with it adequately.  

The last government was accused of being easy-osey on crime. The previous Police Commissioner was accused of being the same.  

Then, National especially, promised things would be different under its watch, which is why we’re seeing all these announcements this week.  

But where the rubber hits the road is what is actually done to catch the criminals —that’s where the police come into it— and, once they are caught, what punishments are actually handed out to them. Which is where the justice system comes into it.  

And those two areas are where I see the Government’s good intentions struggling.  

Because you ask anyone and they’ll tell you that the cops are struggling to keep on top of things as it is.  

Even with a change in Police Commissioner —with the new guy seeming to be much more up the Government’s street than the last guy— the police are still struggling to cope with their workload, aren’t they? 

That's not a criticism of the police, it’s just how things are. So that’s one stumbling block.  

The other one is the justice system.   

How confident are you that, even when these criminals do make it to court, the judges they appear before aren't going to be unswayed by the usual talk about hard upbringings and misfortune and “poor decision-making”? 

In some respects, I see that as more of a problem than the lack of police resources.   

And when I say the justice system, I’m not just talking about the judges, I’m also talking about the people who represent these criminals.  

Because I think there is a systemic issue within the justice system that has taken years to develop and which, I believe, will take years to change. Where the lawyers fight for minimum sentences and where the judges often, it seems, fall for it.   

Which is why people are asking why the Government isn’t requiring minimum sentences for shoplifting, coward punches, and attacks on first responders and corrections staff. It’s setting higher maximum sentences, but no minimum sentences.  

Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith said on Newstalk ZB today that the Government might look at minimum sentences, but not for now. Despite the precedent that has been set with some of the ridiculously low sentences we’ve seen in our courts in recent times.  

Which is why, although I’m pleased the Government is doing what it’s doing, I have serious doubts that the police and the justice system will deliver what the Government wants. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from News Talks AB.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
You've probably worked this out for yourself, but the government
has obviously decided that it is law and auder week
this week with all these announcements that's been making since Monday.
Started off with tougher sentences for people who attack first
responders and prison officers. Good thing, absolutely, Then it was

(00:36):
tougher sentences for people who dishout coward punches and they
can't come soon enough, can they. And the latest are
these tougher measures to try and do something about the
rate of shoplifting retail crime as it's known as these days.
But we know it is nicking stuff shoplifting again, something

(00:57):
I've got no argument against. But here's where the seed
of doubt starts to emerge for me anyway, in terms
of these measures that have been announced and this is
what I want to get your view on today as well.
When it comes to crime, pretty much the only thing

(01:19):
governments can do is to make sure that there are
laws in place to try and deal with it adequately,
and people have different views of what adequately means. The
last government, they were accused of being easyosy on the
old crime, weren't they The previous police commissioner was accused
of of being the same, and then National Especially promised

(01:44):
that things would be different under its watch, which is
why we're seeing all these announcements this week. If there's
been any criticism, it seems that the changes happening quick
enough for some people. But pretty much the government is
doing all it can do to tackle crime, which is

(02:05):
make the laws or change the laws and then pretty
much hope for the best. But where the rubber hits
the road is the tricky bit. Where the rubber hits
the road is what has actually done to catch the crims,
and that's where the police come into it. And then
once they are caught, what punishments are actually handed out

(02:28):
to them, which is where the justice system comes into it.
And those two areas are where I see the government's
good intentions struggling, if not falling over, because you ask
anyone and they'll tell you one thing that the cops
are struggling to keep on top of things as it is,
even with a change in police commissioner, with the new
guy seeming to be much more up the government street

(02:51):
than the last guy. Even with a new boss at
the Helm. Police are still struggling to cope with the workload,
aren't they. No one can deny that. And this is
not a criticism of the police, it's just how things are.
So that's one stumbling block that I see. The one
is the justice system. For several reasons, even though these

(03:12):
and even though these low level shoplifters, for example, who
nick stuff worth less than five hundred bucks, even though
they're going to get these instant fines, the high level
retail criminals, once they're caught by a struggling police force,
they're going to be dealt with by a justice system
that can't cope with the workload it already has either.
Besides which I think this is almost probably the bigger

(03:34):
point about the justice system. How confident are you that,
even when these crims do make it to court, how
confident are you that our judges aren't going to be
swayed by the usual talk about hard upbringings and misfortune
and poor decision making. And as I say, in some respects,
I see that is more of a problem than the

(03:54):
lack of police resources in the first place. And when
I say the justice system, I'm not just talking about
the judges who just out the sentences. I'm also talking
about the people who represent these criminals because I think
there is a systemic issue within the justice system that
has taken years to develop, in which I believe will
take years to change. Where we have the lawyers fighting

(04:18):
for minimum sentences and where we have the judges, often
it seems falling for it. And that's why Mike asked
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith this morning when he was on
a couple of hours ago, why the government isn't requiring
minimum sentences for shoplifting, coward punches and attacks on first
responders and correction staff. Setting highest sentences but no minimum sentences.

(04:42):
And here's what Paul Goldsmith had to say about that.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
We may well in the future. What we've done in
the past in New Zealand has always been a maximum
sentence with a discretion under that for you to deal
with all the many multitudinal, different situations that judges are
dealing with. That's been our approach and we're tightening that.
But the next option if we don't feel like we're
making progress and the messages and getting through would be

(05:06):
the alternatives.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Oh you see, So when I hear the Minister talking
like that, and when I consider the precedent that's been
set with some of the ridiculously low sentences we've seen
in our courts in recent times, When I consider all
of those things and the workload that the police are
struggling with, consider all of that, I'm still pleased the
government's doing what it's doing. But then I do have

(05:30):
serious doubts that the police and the justice system will
deliver what the government wants.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
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