Judith Collins: Defence Minister and Attorney-General on the directive around race in prosecution and the finding of the Manawanui's navigation book

Judith Collins says race shouldn't be a factor in prosecution decisions. 

Solicitor-General Una Jagose KC has been under fire after advising prosecutors to "think carefully about particular decisions... where a person is Māori". 

Collins —in her capacity as Attorney-General— is refusing to endorse the directive. 

She told Ryan Bridge all prosecution decisions should be carefully thought about, but based on circumstances, not on race. 

Collins says it's not just about whether someone can be prosecuted, but whether they can be prosecuted in those circumstances. 

The HMNZS Manawanui’s navigation book has also been found by the crew of a British ship. 

A New Zealand Defence Force spokesman has confirmed Royal Navy patrol vessel HMS Tamar was able to recover the book 

The navigation record book and black box are expected to be key evidence in the Court of Inquiry. 

Defence Minister Collins told Bridge the HMS Tamar has found good information.  

She says the ship was in the area to see what they could do to help, and that information will be part of the investigation. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The NATO Defense Minister's meeting has been held in Brussels
amid ongoing global tensions the Middle East, Europe. Where isn't
it happening? Frankly? Earlier this week, China held military drills
that completely surrounded Taiwan, just a few weeks after the
hmnz Alte was sailed through the Taiwan straight. Ukraine's President
Zezelenski is set to be at the meeting today. Judith

(00:21):
Collins is our Defense Minister and she's with us live
from Brussels. Minister, Welcome to the show. Oh hi Ryan,
great to have you here. Minister, tell me I understand
you've been meeting with the US Secretory of Defense Lloyd Austin,
You've been meeting with the Secretary General of NATO. What
are you being told? What is the key thing New
Zealand needs to know about from your meetings?

Speaker 2 (00:44):
So we've had a meeting as well of the all
of the defense ministers and what's called the IP four
and that's ourselves, Australia, Japan, and South Korea Republic of Korea.
We're all hearing the same thing that what happened in Europe,
what happens in Ukraine? Actually matters in the Indo Pacific
region and what happens in the end the Pacific is

(01:06):
being noted and matters to Europe as well as NATO generally.
So what we're hearing is everything's interconnected. I think many
of us know that, but it's being noted that the
world is quite a different place than it was a
few years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Would do you think that NATO's an organization that could
ever expand furtherest South?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well, no one's talking about that, and certainly on their rules,
anybody knew joining NATO would have to come from Europe,
and so I don't think that's the point. But the
fact is that the IP four has been invited. This
is our very first time as defense ministers for the
End of Pacific four to be invited to the NATO

(01:49):
discussions and be invited to NATO Defense Ministers meeting. What
I'm really hearing is because we always know New Zealm
knows that what happens in Europe's important to us, but
it's good to hear the Europeans and the members of NATO,
Canada and US, as well as Europeans and Turkey actually
saying it matters to them too. What happens in the

(02:11):
Pacific and the end of the Pacific region.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
They's talk about with your with your Attorney General hat
On from a moment, just if I could, Minister, the
Solicitor General says that you need to think carefully about
a particular decision, decision where a person is mildly This
has obviously been an issue that's been bubbling away here
in New Zealand. David Seymour's had something to say about it.
What do you have to say about it?

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Well, I'm really clear on this. The law needs to
be blind as the people's ethnicity or who they are.
And I'm very much of the view that these are
these Solicitor General's prosecution guidelines. They're certainly not rules, they're guidelines.
But actually I did not write a forward to them,

(02:55):
as most attorneys have been the past, and I do
not agree that people should be treated differently based on
their ethnicity. It's simply not in my understanding that is
what we should have. We have the rule of law
that need that means that everyone is subject to the
same law.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Has the Solicited General, in your view, overstepped their independence.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, Sister General is independent in relation to individual cases,
but we've had it. Obviously, this is this is different
because of the way it's words. I think it has
led people to believe that mari or will be treated
differently when it comes to prosecution decisions. My view is

(03:43):
that all prosecution decisions should be carefully thought about because
it's not just about whether or not someone can be prosecuted.
It should they be prosecuted in those circumstances. And we
know that that's something that's that's standards. But based on
ethnesty No, yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
So will the solicit will anything change or is there
nothing actually you can do?

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well? There is, there's are the Sister generals. I think
that she is looking at the fact that there has
been an overwhelming backlash from the public, but that's something
that she needs to come to herself. I'm very clear
myself that the law must not discriminate based on ethnesty.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Sarma. The navigation records of the manamon Nue have apparently
been found by a British warship. Have you been briefed
on that and what else are they finding?

Speaker 2 (04:40):
No, I've seen that there has been some very good
information has been found by the HMS TMMA which was
in the area and for the you know, obviously to
see what they could do to help. That will no
doubt be going through defense. It will be part of
the investigation, which is a court of inquiry set up
under the Armed Forces Discipline Act, so no doubt be

(05:06):
part of that.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Do you have any update on the size of any
oil leaks.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
Well, I think there's very little that we can say
about oil leaks in terms of not so much that
more diesel, and even then it seems to be relatively small.
There are a couple of leaks understand that have been
stopped and that the main work now is going on
to remove the containers, but also to see what else

(05:34):
can be done in terms of a removal of the
fuel that is remaining those big tanks. Certainly, everything I've
seen and been told is that although it's always very
concerning and we certainly don't want something happening and it's
a massive leak or anything like that, so far it's
not nearly as bad as we thought it might have
been at the start.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Just coming back to NATO for a second, and obviously
we're not a part of NATAP before, but bottomy Zelensky
has made it very clear that part of his victory
plan is being part of NATO is being a member
of NATO, and you can understand the reluctance from some
countries within it to that. But I mean, is that
what victory means for Ukraine.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
I don't know, you'd have to ask him. My concern
is is that Ukraine has been illegally and immorally invaded
by Russia. It has caused immense misery to the people.
Ukraine did nothing to deserve that, and I'm just really
pleased that New Zealand has both the previous government and

(06:40):
ours stepped up and done what we can to assist Ukraine.
And I think it's you know, the international rules based
order is very important for smaller nations. We can't possibly
defend ourselves by ourselves and we need people to fit
their own borders.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
Judith Collins, we really appreciate your time this morning thing.
Thank you very much for joining us the Defense Minister
Judith Collins live in Brussels, NATO. For more from Early
edition with Ryan Bridge. Listen live to News Talks. It'd
be from five am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.