There's been suggestions we need to move away from relying on pine trees to offset our emissions.
The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment recently put out a report examining forestry drivers in New Zealand - and says we need to phase out the current approach to forestry.
David Norton from Pure Advantage says we can't offset our way out of a climate emergency - and we need to work on reducing CO2.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Right now. If you're one of those people who flies
and texts the yes, I will offset my carbon emissions
by planting a pine tree, thank you very much, and
then feel totally fine about flying, then you might want
to listen to this. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment
has recommended a big shakeup in the way that we
do forestry in this country. He's put out a report
that recommends we should stop using pine forest to offset
(00:22):
carbon emissions. He basically thinks we should phase out forestry
offsets for carbon emissions. David Norton is a strategic science
advisor with pure advantage with me tonight, David.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good evening, Cured, Nice to be here, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Good to have you on the show. So why can't
we keep using pine forest? It seems easy to do
and feels good.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, it does seem easy to do and it does
feel good. That The problem, the fundamental problem, is that
we've got to stop producing emissions. We can't offset our
way out of the climate emergency. So I guess the
first reason is that we've also got to stop producing
all the CO two out there.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
But if we are going to keep doing it, which
let's face it, we are going to keep doing for
some time to come. Then are we not better off
offsetting it by planting trees, by planting pine? Is that
is that a problem now?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yes, So that's a really good question. And the problem
with pines is that there's no guarantee they're going to
be permanent. So when you want to offset something, you
want to be sure that carbon is going to stay
in the ground forever. And there is zero guarantee they're
going to be permanent. They'll grow for thirty forty fifty years,
but beyond that we know very little about how they'll perform.
So we'd be clear here, we're talking about permanent radiator
(01:34):
pine forests have been planted for carbon. We're not talking
about sustainably managed plantations for timber and the real warriors.
They're not going to be permanent, So it's going to
be a liability. The guys people who plant them made
their money over the short term from the carbon offsets,
But who's going to be liable for the environmental the
downstream impacts of those forests collapse, and of course for
the loss in the carbon. And that's the real concern.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
What do you mean collapse? What will happen to them
after that period of time.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, there's no even to say that a pine forest. Remember,
pine trees come from California. They're adapted to the Californian environment.
There is no evidence that pine forest will stay permanently
in the ground in Altero and New Zealand. It's not
adapted to our New Zealand environment. And in fact is
being suggested that as climate change becomes more and more
extreme weather from climate change that these tall, thin pine
(02:20):
trees that have been carefully selected to grow fast and
supquest lots of carbon, become very prone to wind throw
to all sorts of extreme storm events.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So they'll just down fall over.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah yeah, and so the useless. So someone's got a
liability for the carbon that's been stored in them. It's
an economic cost, probably the government in the future. But
what about all the downstream impacts that are going to
occur when those forests collapse and impact downstream communities?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So what's the what do we do? I mean, the thing,
whenever we talk about climate change, I just go I
don't care, Like it's easier for me to just actually
not think about it and carry on with my life.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, you know what I mean, totally Look, look, we've
got to try and reduce our emissions. That there's no
two ways a doubt that, and every little step helps
of that. But I think we've got to think about
New Zealand and what New Zealand is facing. So cycling Gabriel,
you know, is going to happen again and again and again,
and it's not a one off event, and we've got
to start thinking how do we build resilient landscapes. How
(03:18):
do we make our catchments, our landscapes resilient to these
storm events and forests are really important, but we need
permanent native forests. And I'm involved with Pure Advantage in
this project called Recloaking Papa Too our Nukou, which is
proposing that we restore, regenerate, assist the development of two
million hectares of native forest, not in big blocks, but
carefully interwoven through landscapes in New Zealand to try and
(03:41):
build landscape resilience and have those native forests will also
draw down.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Carbon as well as not as much as the pine though,
right that's the problem with NAIs and they take so much.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, but they'll do it over the longer term and
they'll help build up our resilient landscapes. And the Commission
is quite clear in his report that you know, native
forest can actually provide all these benefits and of course
they help bio diversity. The part of who we are.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Who who pays for them?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well, again he recommends by taking forestry out of the
t s, it's going to make the emitters of carbon
Dix side have to pay more to buy their carbon
preaduce from government and that money then gets invested back
into doing to doing forestry cross and.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Then we pay more. We have higher power bills presumably
whatever it might be, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well not none if it's renewably generated. And I mean
that's the whole thing. The whole idea of the mission
we have scheme is to get us to change our behavior.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And I suppose, but then in my petrol will be
more expensive, won't it Ye?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
But then maybe we need to be have more evs
and use use use other trans.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Haven't got a story for you, David. Have you read
the story today? Go ahead, a reader. There's a study
from Aukland University. Basically, we can't have the pine forests,
we can't have the e vs. I'm banging my head
against the wall here David, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's about no, it's not about tuning out. It's about
about looking at everything we do and thinking about all
those individual small actions can all help in the long run.
But I think to me and my expertise as ecology,
as a forest ecologist and to me, we need to
build resilient communities, resilient landscapes in New Zealand, and native
forests interwoven through our primary production systems, our farms and
(05:25):
our horticultural areas can really help build that and it's
going to be in the long term, and it's what
we all want all. We all relate to cody or
to cabbage trees, or to cattarou and toy you know,
it's all part of who we are.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
And I think I don't know how much I relate
to a cabbage tree, but I certainly I think if
we're going to go down that track, I think I
would relate more to a cabbage tree than I would
to a pine. That's a fair point. Hey, thanks for
coming on the show, David. Interesting stuff. David Norton Pure
Advantage Strategic Science Advisor talking there about the Parliamentary Commission
for the Environment saying that you know pine plantations, not
(05:58):
the plantations, but PEDDICKX Peddicks filled with pine not necessarily
the best thing in the long run.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
News Talks A B from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
Right now. If you're one of those people who flies
and texts the yes, I will offset my carbon emissions
by planting a pine tree, thank you very much, and
then feel totally fine about flying, then you might want
to listen to this. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment
has recommended a big shakeup in the way that we
do forestry in this country. He's put out a report
that recommends we should stop using pine forest to offset
(00:22):
carbon emissions. He basically thinks we should phase out forestry
offsets for carbon emissions. David Norton is a strategic science
advisor with pure advantage with me tonight, David.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good evening, Cured, Nice to be here, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Good to have you on the show. So why can't
we keep using pine forest? It seems easy to do
and feels good.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, it does seem easy to do and it does
feel good. That The problem, the fundamental problem, is that
we've got to stop producing emissions. We can't offset our
way out of the climate emergency. So I guess the
first reason is that we've also got to stop producing
all the CO two out there.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
But if we are going to keep doing it, which
let's face it, we are going to keep doing for
some time to come. Then are we not better off
offsetting it by planting trees, by planting pine? Is that
is that a problem now?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yes, So that's a really good question. And the problem
with pines is that there's no guarantee they're going to
be permanent. So when you want to offset something, you
want to be sure that carbon is going to stay
in the ground forever. And there is zero guarantee they're
going to be permanent. They'll grow for thirty forty fifty years,
but beyond that we know very little about how they'll perform.
So we'd be clear here, we're talking about permanent radiator
(01:34):
pine forests have been planted for carbon. We're not talking
about sustainably managed plantations for timber and the real warriors.
They're not going to be permanent, So it's going to
be a liability. The guys people who plant them made
their money over the short term from the carbon offsets,
But who's going to be liable for the environmental the
downstream impacts of those forests collapse, and of course for
the loss in the carbon. And that's the real concern.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
What do you mean collapse? What will happen to them
after that period of time.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, there's no even to say that a pine forest. Remember,
pine trees come from California. They're adapted to the Californian environment.
There is no evidence that pine forest will stay permanently
in the ground in Altero and New Zealand. It's not
adapted to our New Zealand environment. And in fact is
being suggested that as climate change becomes more and more
extreme weather from climate change that these tall, thin pine
(02:20):
trees that have been carefully selected to grow fast and
supquest lots of carbon, become very prone to wind throw
to all sorts of extreme storm events.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So they'll just down fall over.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah yeah, and so the useless. So someone's got a
liability for the carbon that's been stored in them. It's
an economic cost, probably the government in the future. But
what about all the downstream impacts that are going to
occur when those forests collapse and impact downstream communities?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So what's the what do we do? I mean, the thing,
whenever we talk about climate change, I just go I
don't care, Like it's easier for me to just actually
not think about it and carry on with my life.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, you know what I mean, totally Look, look, we've
got to try and reduce our emissions. That there's no
two ways a doubt that, and every little step helps
of that. But I think we've got to think about
New Zealand and what New Zealand is facing. So cycling Gabriel,
you know, is going to happen again and again and again,
and it's not a one off event, and we've got
to start thinking how do we build resilient landscapes. How
(03:18):
do we make our catchments, our landscapes resilient to these
storm events and forests are really important, but we need
permanent native forests. And I'm involved with Pure Advantage in
this project called Recloaking Papa Too our Nukou, which is
proposing that we restore, regenerate, assist the development of two
million hectares of native forest, not in big blocks, but
carefully interwoven through landscapes in New Zealand to try and
(03:41):
build landscape resilience and have those native forests will also
draw down.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Carbon as well as not as much as the pine though,
right that's the problem with NAIs and they take so much.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, but they'll do it over the longer term and
they'll help build up our resilient landscapes. And the Commission
is quite clear in his report that you know, native
forest can actually provide all these benefits and of course
they help bio diversity. The part of who we are.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Who who pays for them?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well, again he recommends by taking forestry out of the
t s, it's going to make the emitters of carbon
Dix side have to pay more to buy their carbon
preaduce from government and that money then gets invested back
into doing to doing forestry cross and.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Then we pay more. We have higher power bills presumably
whatever it might be, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well not none if it's renewably generated. And I mean
that's the whole thing. The whole idea of the mission
we have scheme is to get us to change our behavior.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And I suppose, but then in my petrol will be
more expensive, won't it Ye?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
But then maybe we need to be have more evs
and use use use other trans.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Haven't got a story for you, David. Have you read
the story today? Go ahead, a reader. There's a study
from Aukland University. Basically, we can't have the pine forests,
we can't have the e vs. I'm banging my head
against the wall here David, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's about no, it's not about tuning out. It's about
about looking at everything we do and thinking about all
those individual small actions can all help in the long run.
But I think to me and my expertise as ecology,
as a forest ecologist and to me, we need to
build resilient communities, resilient landscapes in New Zealand, and native
forests interwoven through our primary production systems, our farms and
(05:25):
our horticultural areas can really help build that and it's
going to be in the long term, and it's what
we all want all. We all relate to cody or
to cabbage trees, or to cattarou and toy you know,
it's all part of who we are.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
And I think I don't know how much I relate
to a cabbage tree, but I certainly I think if
we're going to go down that track, I think I
would relate more to a cabbage tree than I would
to a pine. That's a fair point. Hey, thanks for
coming on the show, David. Interesting stuff. David Norton Pure
Advantage Strategic Science Advisor talking there about the Parliamentary Commission
for the Environment saying that you know pine plantations, not
(05:58):
the plantations, but PEDDICKX Peddicks filled with pine not necessarily
the best thing in the long run.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
News Talks A B from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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