October 13, 2025 • 6 mins
The Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner recently penned an opinion piece in defence of DEI amid ongoing concerns about the measures.
Winston Peters and Judith Collins have taken aim against these policies, with Collins aiming to remove diversity requirements from the Public Service Act.
Gail Pacheco revealed how DEI standards can boost productivity.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now, the Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner has penned an op
ed in the defense of DEI, which is obviously diversity,
equity and inclusion. Earlier this year, Judith Collins announced she
wants to remove DEI requirements from the Public Surface Act.
Winston Peters has long been railing against it, and both
say that we shouldn't stand in the way of hiring
the best people for the job. You need to stop
putting labels on people. Gail Pachaco is the Equal Employment
(00:22):
Opportunities Commissioner and with us. Hey, Gail, Hello, Now I'm
fascinated by the fact that you say it's good for
productivity to implement the DEI. How does that work?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well? As you said, I'm an EEO commissioner, but I'm
also I've been a professor of economics for many years,
and i was a former Productivity Commissioner. So I've looked
at the evidence through all of these lenses, and the
evidence sort of consistently shows, whether it's international evidence or
even New zeal And evidence that I've researched that I've
led that DEI policies, when they're embedded into the workplace,
(00:56):
they're actually good for ensuring meritocracy, they help with productivity growth.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
How do we know that? How can we measure it?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well? The research papers have worked with data from thousands
of firms, So there's McKinsey data, there's work with thousands
of firms. There's Odd data as well, and there's New
Zealand data that we've recently done as well, and that's
worked with two decades of administrative data from across all
of New Zealand firms and in that we find a
(01:28):
very clear and positive link between workplace diversity and productivity growth.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Okay, so you done. You've compiled some data yourself, have you.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yes, So we've done data using the administrative data from
the longitudinal Business data frame.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Okay, now, how do you know that it's definitely about
the DEI.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, in this research, so we use econometric methods where
we also control for other characteristics of the firm, so
you can kind of control for things like size or
other firm characteristics that might also be related to productivity.
And if you can control for those things and you
(02:10):
still find a positive link between diversity and this matches
with dozens of international studies, that's very clear signal that
DEI is actually good for productivity and economic growth.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
But what is it about DEI that's creating productivity growth?
That's the thing I don't understand. I mean, you've got, sure,
you've got. I mean you get yourself a new staff member,
which presumably is good for productivity anyway, because they are,
you know, excited about the job. But then what about
being a woman, or being brown or you know, being
less able suddenly makes productivity shoot up.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, having a diverse range of ideas, diverse range of expertise,
and diverse DEI policies in of themselves mean that you
ensure the best people get to the the role. So
it's not just about particular groups getting into roles. It's
about ensuring the best people get to the role. And
DEI policies ensure that you remove some of those barriers
(03:11):
that sometimes might mean the best people aren't getting to
the role. Okay, So well in the column, I'm focused
on sort of showing how DEI actually supports meritocracy.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Okay, so when you did the study and yet you
saw that there was some sort of a link between
you know, DEI and productivity, did you have a comparison
group that was less diverse and therefore less productive.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, well that's what the study does. It looks at
those with lower productivity and the difference that happens when
or as well as those with higher productivity, and looks
at the differences in terms of workplace diversity. And so
it looks at the full range.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Okay, and so how this is going back years? So
you're telling me that for years, you guys have been
able to access the data of like whether the employees
are women, whether the employee brown, whatever.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah. So the data in the stats New Zealand, the
administrative data on firms allows us to look at firm characteristics.
It also allows us to link with individual information and
you can see the characteristics of the employees by gender,
by ethnicity, etc. And this is data that we've used
(04:22):
even in my previous role when I was director of
the New Zealand Policy Research Institute for dozens of different
projects that were focused on evidence of different policy evaluation,
whether the firm level policy, where the labor market policy,
where the health policy, etc.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Okay, Gail, I'm really open to being convinced, but I'm
not convinced yet. Have you got one example, just one
example of this in practice, Like these guys hired a
woman and therefore they were more productive because she did this.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, these are averages of course across the econotry. But
what's really important, I mean, a really good example I
find to point to is the public service did right.
So the public service had a very concerted effort towards
DEI between twenty twenty one and twenty twenty four. In particular,
actually started back in twenty eighteen. And when they had
(05:12):
a concerted effort and they introduced requirements for public sector agencies,
for instance, to report on pay gaps, they provided a
lot of concrete guidance on DEI, They provided guidance on
removing bias from generation human resources policies, et cetera. The
impact that had over those six years was immense. Like,
(05:33):
the pay gap fell markedly.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
The pay gaps are not product of ADEL.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah, well, the pay gap, well, the data they had
showed the pay gap fell markedly. They also corrected for
salaries of similarly skilled employees in the same or similar role.
So in that race, in that piece of work, they
had really good results in terms of closing the gap.
And I mean the other thing to consider here, he Heather,
(06:02):
is that you know what our workforce is going to
look like in the next twenty years. So if we're
not tapping onto this talent pool of different ethnic communities,
et cetera, that's not going to be good for our
productivity in the long run. Just from a pure demographic
point of view, like within twenty years, sixty percent of
(06:24):
our workforce are going to be either Mari, Pacific or Asian.
And if we don't tap into that workforce capability and
capacity now and start building into that now, what is
going to happen to our productivity in the long run? Right? Gal?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Thank you, Gal Pacheco Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioners. For more
from Hither, Duplessyell and Drive, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
Now, the Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner has penned an op
ed in the defense of DEI, which is obviously diversity,
equity and inclusion. Earlier this year, Judith Collins announced she
wants to remove DEI requirements from the Public Surface Act.
Winston Peters has long been railing against it, and both
say that we shouldn't stand in the way of hiring
the best people for the job. You need to stop
putting labels on people. Gail Pachaco is the Equal Employment
(00:22):
Opportunities Commissioner and with us. Hey, Gail, Hello, Now I'm
fascinated by the fact that you say it's good for
productivity to implement the DEI. How does that work?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well? As you said, I'm an EEO commissioner, but I'm
also I've been a professor of economics for many years,
and i was a former Productivity Commissioner. So I've looked
at the evidence through all of these lenses, and the
evidence sort of consistently shows, whether it's international evidence or
even New zeal And evidence that I've researched that I've
led that DEI policies, when they're embedded into the workplace,
(00:56):
they're actually good for ensuring meritocracy, they help with productivity growth.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
How do we know that? How can we measure it?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well? The research papers have worked with data from thousands
of firms, So there's McKinsey data, there's work with thousands
of firms. There's Odd data as well, and there's New
Zealand data that we've recently done as well, and that's
worked with two decades of administrative data from across all
of New Zealand firms and in that we find a
(01:28):
very clear and positive link between workplace diversity and productivity growth.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Okay, so you done. You've compiled some data yourself, have you.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yes, So we've done data using the administrative data from
the longitudinal Business data frame.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Okay, now, how do you know that it's definitely about
the DEI.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, in this research, so we use econometric methods where
we also control for other characteristics of the firm, so
you can kind of control for things like size or
other firm characteristics that might also be related to productivity.
And if you can control for those things and you
(02:10):
still find a positive link between diversity and this matches
with dozens of international studies, that's very clear signal that
DEI is actually good for productivity and economic growth.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
But what is it about DEI that's creating productivity growth?
That's the thing I don't understand. I mean, you've got, sure,
you've got. I mean you get yourself a new staff member,
which presumably is good for productivity anyway, because they are,
you know, excited about the job. But then what about
being a woman, or being brown or you know, being
less able suddenly makes productivity shoot up.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, having a diverse range of ideas, diverse range of expertise,
and diverse DEI policies in of themselves mean that you
ensure the best people get to the the role. So
it's not just about particular groups getting into roles. It's
about ensuring the best people get to the role. And
DEI policies ensure that you remove some of those barriers
(03:11):
that sometimes might mean the best people aren't getting to
the role. Okay, So well in the column, I'm focused
on sort of showing how DEI actually supports meritocracy.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Okay, so when you did the study and yet you
saw that there was some sort of a link between
you know, DEI and productivity, did you have a comparison
group that was less diverse and therefore less productive.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, well that's what the study does. It looks at
those with lower productivity and the difference that happens when
or as well as those with higher productivity, and looks
at the differences in terms of workplace diversity. And so
it looks at the full range.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Okay, and so how this is going back years? So
you're telling me that for years, you guys have been
able to access the data of like whether the employees
are women, whether the employee brown, whatever.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah. So the data in the stats New Zealand, the
administrative data on firms allows us to look at firm characteristics.
It also allows us to link with individual information and
you can see the characteristics of the employees by gender,
by ethnicity, etc. And this is data that we've used
(04:22):
even in my previous role when I was director of
the New Zealand Policy Research Institute for dozens of different
projects that were focused on evidence of different policy evaluation,
whether the firm level policy, where the labor market policy,
where the health policy, etc.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Okay, Gail, I'm really open to being convinced, but I'm
not convinced yet. Have you got one example, just one
example of this in practice, Like these guys hired a
woman and therefore they were more productive because she did this.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, these are averages of course across the econotry. But
what's really important, I mean, a really good example I
find to point to is the public service did right.
So the public service had a very concerted effort towards
DEI between twenty twenty one and twenty twenty four. In particular,
actually started back in twenty eighteen. And when they had
(05:12):
a concerted effort and they introduced requirements for public sector agencies,
for instance, to report on pay gaps, they provided a
lot of concrete guidance on DEI, They provided guidance on
removing bias from generation human resources policies, et cetera. The
impact that had over those six years was immense. Like,
(05:33):
the pay gap fell markedly.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
The pay gaps are not product of ADEL.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah, well, the pay gap, well, the data they had
showed the pay gap fell markedly. They also corrected for
salaries of similarly skilled employees in the same or similar role.
So in that race, in that piece of work, they
had really good results in terms of closing the gap.
And I mean the other thing to consider here, he Heather,
(06:02):
is that you know what our workforce is going to
look like in the next twenty years. So if we're
not tapping onto this talent pool of different ethnic communities,
et cetera, that's not going to be good for our
productivity in the long run. Just from a pure demographic
point of view, like within twenty years, sixty percent of
(06:24):
our workforce are going to be either Mari, Pacific or Asian.
And if we don't tap into that workforce capability and
capacity now and start building into that now, what is
going to happen to our productivity in the long run? Right? Gal?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Thank you, Gal Pacheco Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioners. For more
from Hither, Duplessyell and Drive, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!