Geoff Chase: Canterbury University professor on the new evidence disputing Lucy Letby murder case

High insulin levels in babies - used to convict UK nurse Lucy Letby - could have occurred naturally. 

A jury found the 35-year-old guilty of the murder or attempted murder of 14 babies.

Some experts have suggested in a report that the deaths could be from errors or natural causes. 

Canterbury University professor, Geoff Chase, assisted in the report.

He says Letby was found guilty of adding insulin to two babies' intravenous food - and their levels were unexpected, but not impossible. 

He also explained their levels were unexpected, but not impossible - and in pre-term newborns, most to all bets are off. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
To the bombshell announcement from the UK. Now a group
of experts are claiming that convicted British serial killer Lucy
Letbee didn't murder a single baby in her care. Fourteen
international experts have come together and authored a new report.
They concluded that these seventeen newborns let Bee was charged
with harming deteriorated due to natural causes or broader quote

(00:22):
bad medical care. The former nurse was found guilty by
a jury in twenty twenty three and given fifteen whole
life sentences. The report's going to be presented by her lawyers,
who want the case to be investigated as a potential
miscarriage of justice. Professor Jeff Chase from the University of
Canterbury was involved in this report and he's with me
this afternoon. Jeff, Hello, Hi, Hoiriott. Thank you for being

(00:44):
with me. First of all, how did you get involved
with this report?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
I actually first heard about the lb case only in
April last year. Our reporter called me asking some questions
they were investigating in the UK, whether or not there
was even a story there. I knew nothing and it
went nowhere. At that time I got another call from
a BBC reporter and someone doing some modeling who felt

(01:10):
that something was wrong with this case last July, and
I got involved from there my reason or the reason
I should be involved, I suppose, so we do seem
to controlling model insulin kinetics and insulent action, how insulin
effects blood gluecose levels, and not only adults and for

(01:31):
the intensive care unit and managing blood glucos there, but
also in pre term neon ads. These are the really
tiny babies that are maybe eight hundred one thousand grands
a KI though or less in the neonatal unit here
at Crusher twomen's. And we've been safely dosing insulin, which
is actually quite difficult in these cohorts and is often
not done for that reason, for as a standard of

(01:54):
care with these models for something like sixteen seventeen years.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Okay, so you are very qualified in this area. How
is it that you can because obviously this has been
before the courts, they have looked at all of the
evidence extensively. I mean, you're not there, you'll hear. So
what is it that you're looking at that you're saying
that that leads you to believe that these babies that
were murdered well, four of the seven that were murdered

(02:21):
that they weren't in fact.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
So in this case the other babies that there were
over nine babies, but two of them were. The conviction
was based that they were dosed with insulin and the
nutrition bags, so a bag that hangs and provides daxtros
and libids and nutrition called tepee and or total parential nutrition,

(02:44):
but nutrition given to you straight into So that was
the convection was based that Lucy had spiked the bags
with insulin and that that caused the hype I've got
seeing of their experience. Babies did not die, but she
was convicted of as I understand, that attempted murder in

(03:04):
those two cases. One of those was in the press
release report today referred to as Baby six. In the
court cases are referred to as Baby FM Baby L.
So in that sense, these are separate from some of
the cases around air embolism and air injection to the
into stomach or the ETT tube the naso gastric tube. Sorry,

(03:28):
and in essence, they were based strictly on a very
high measurement from a lab test for insulin that was
higher than the level of what's called seat peptide. In
your body, and so that was the sole basis that
says that no. Normally, in a healthy person, if I

(03:50):
measured your blood right now, your insulin level will be
lower than your seapeptide level for a wide range of
physiological reasons about how insolince peptide are produced by the
body together but are used and cleared by the body
at different rates.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Right, So, you were saying she was convicted on insulin
rates in the baby's bodies, that it could actually be
naturally occurring.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
In the short answer, yes, wow, they can occur by
other means. Particularly, there's an assumption in the interpretation of
the evidence based on what is normal. So I would
not expect that kind of measurement in you right now.
But in any kind of critical care setting, and particularly
with pre term neonates, most to all bets are off.

(04:36):
There are behaviors and trends, but they're not newly as
guaranteed as there would be if we both got together
and tested a healthy person.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
So there's an argument to be made, and I could
understand that if it was one baby, but given there
are so many babies, you know, seven murders and six
attempted murders is what she was convicted for. You know,
is it common for a nurse to have that many cases?

Speaker 2 (05:00):
I wouldn't know nurse murders, and these convictions are probably
an interesting field of a sociological study and their own right.
There are two other nurses either imprison or convicted in
the UK that I've heard about around the similar kinds
of cases with geriatrics. So one argument I guess would

(05:22):
be that this is quite common. It is easy to
find disparate data. So one thing to know about the
insulent cases was that there was a cluster of deaths
in this unit, and then they went looking to see
who was on duty at these times. After that, they
were looking for the records to see who else might
have been harmed. So they went looking for babies that

(05:43):
she had treated to see if there were measurements or
other things out of balance, as they were out of
their expectations. And that is how these two insulin babies
that I've been asked to look at along with somebody.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Else, that's when they cropped up. Jiff, thank you very
much for being with uscinating case. As you say. Jeff Chase,
who's a professor at the University of Canterbury and who
is part of the group of academics who have looked
at this case and come up with a report and
Lucy Letby, you will know the case from the UK.

(06:15):
Her lawyers are now trying to have this investigated as
a potential miscarriage of justice. For more from Heather Duplessy
Allen Drive. Listen live to news Talks. It'd be from
four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.