Greg Barton: professor of global Islamic politics on Donald Trump suggesting neighbouring regions help 'clean out' Gaza

US President Donald Trump's push for Arab nations to take in Palestinians to 'clean out' Gaza could be a genuine suggestion.

He's said Egypt and Jordan should take in Gazans - with the Strip extensively damaged and people dying.

Greg Barton, a noted professor of global Islamic politics, says Trump is 'flying a kite' to see the response, and what he can away with.

"Donald Trump will typically say things that are contradictory - and allow himself plausible deniability, so he can walk his way back from this one, but he's clearly got an interest in seeing if it's got traction."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay. Donald Trump has described Gaza as a demolition site
and suggested to clean the whole thing, clean out the
whole thing exact words, either temporarily or for the long
term to allow rebuild. He wants Egypt and Jordan to
take in Palestinian some Gaza. It's not the first time
he's floated this idea. Last week he said this. You know,

(00:22):
Gaza is interesting. It's a phenomenal location on the sea,
best weather, you know, everything's good. It's like some beautiful
things could be done with it. It is a beautiful place.
It used to be a beautiful place, and then it wasn't.
Greg Barton is Deacon University's professor of Global Islamic Politics

(00:43):
in Australia, joins us.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Now, good a, Greg, goodbye, Good to be with you.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Second time in a week he's talked about this idea.
How serious do you think? It is?

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Pretty serious. I think he's flying a kite to see
what sort of response he gets to what he can
get away with. So Donald Trump typically will will say
things that you know, a contradictory and allow himself plausible deniability.
So he could walk his way back from this one.
But clearly he's got an interest to see whether it's

(01:12):
got traction. What he's expressing has been expressed by the
fire right elements of the current Israeli government, And to
be fair, even Joe Biden's administration did speak to Jordan
and Egypt about whether they could take some of the
people of Gaza. Different motivations, but I mean the idea
has been out there. People in Gaza very worried about this.
They worry that they're being pushed off their land. Trump

(01:34):
may not go through with this, but he's giving it
a try to see what it might lie.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Well, the United States was traditionally or recently anyway a
proponent of the two states solution. But in suggesting this
where you can't have a two states solution when you've
moved everybody into Egypt, do you think he's going back
on that? Things are changing.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah. Look, I think if Donald Trump has his way,
and bear in mind, he's not deeply ideological, he's transactional,
and he'll pick his sights. And you know, he liked
nothing but have been being a winner. He's not going
to die in a ditch over this. But in Donald
trum Trump's own mind, there's no deep commitment to a
two state solution or a peace process, or indeed sort
of broad conceptions of justice. He's he's got a very

(02:15):
different view than what America has held traditionally, but his
view may not hold well.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Look, here's the thing about being transactional and just going
for quick wins and stuff. Because some people were surprised
when Donald Trump forced benj Vnetnyaho to sign the cease
fire deal with Hamas. Could it be that he was
going for this idea which was supported by the far
rights in Israel? And could that have had anything to
do with it?

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Certainly possible. I think one of the factors that play
with both of us and whose government is the unpredictability
of Donald Trump. From their perspective, they just don't know
what he might do. They know he's given to blossom bluster.
He himself famously in that book that his name is
on the Art of the Deal, said that, you know,
part of the making is to put outrageous claims upfront
and see what he can get away with test people.

(03:05):
So perhaps that's what he's doing, but it does mean
that for anyone dealing with him, they can't be certain.
So I think Amass was genuinely anxious that things make
it worse under Donald Trump. I think Metnya, who also
thought better to take a bird in the hand than
risk uncertainty. It's almost inevitable that there's been the floating
of this idea and other sort of ideas that would

(03:26):
please far right elements of the cabinet in Israel. It
doesn't mean that Trump is going to commit himself to
going through with it, but this is certainly inching closer
to being something they're going to try and put on.
It's worth nerving too that his Donald Trump's, the son
in law shared Kushna, has been part of real estate
consortium's looking at having Jewish settlements in Gaza and sort

(03:48):
of great real estate deals on the beach front.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
But do you think he realizes how deeply this resonates
with Arab nations, Because if you go back to nineteen
forty eight, the movement of Palestinians out of what they
thought was their homeland was as kind of like what
started this whole thing off.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
I don't think he understands that history or cares about it.
What he does care about, though, is his relationship with
Muhammad Bin some One, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia MBSNBS, Yes,
that's right and NBS. Trump recently approached NBS and said, look,
you know, maybe we should pick it up the deal

(04:23):
we had talked about last time when I was president,
and NBS came back and said, sure, we'll increase it.
I think he spoke of a trillion dollars. NBS also
is pretty good at negotiating, perhaps better than Donald Trump.
But there's a transactual interest on both sides there. And
of course one of the hallmark politicians of the previous
Trump government was this idea of Abraham Accord's and peace

(04:45):
between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which makes a lot of
people angry because it covers over what we're just discussing,
that history of occupation, but it also potentially opens the
way forward, opens the way forward for Saudi and other
Arab support for regu and Regaza Strip with a new
Palestinian administration. So the devil was very much the details.
It could be something that is a force for good

(05:07):
in a very difficult situation, or it could be something
that just further adds to injustice.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Thank you so much. Greg Barton is the professor of
Global Islamic politics at the Deacon University, which is in Australia.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
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