Helmut Modlik: Te Rūnanga o Toa Rangatira chief executive challenges ACT's David Seymour to debate Treaty Principles Bill

Wellington-based iwi Ngāti Toa Rangatira has asked ACT leader David Seymour to front up and debate the Treaty Principles Bill.

Te Rūnanga o Toa Rangatira chief executive Helmut Modlik has labelled Seymour's suggestions to have a national conversation about the Treaty a 'charade'.

Modlik says he hopes this debate will receive plenty of media coverage.

"The audience for the debate I'm hoping for isn't David, it's actually our fellow citizens. I'm really wanting to surface, for New Zealanders, the issues that keep getting alluded to, but never really directly addressed." 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now Wellington EWE NA Tangata is challenging ACT Party leader
David Seymour to a public debate on the Treaty Principles Bill.
The EE says Seymour has constantly challenged New Zealanders to
have a national conversation about the Treaty and now it's
time for him to front up and have a conversation.
The ewe's chief executive, Helmet Modelick, is with us. Now, hey,
Helmet Shelder, Okay, when and where do you want to

(00:22):
have this debate?

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Anytime? Anywhere, as long as we're able to actually ensure
that it gets some coverage, because the audience for the
debate that I'm actually hoping for isn't David is actually
as our fellow citizens, I'm really wanting to surface for
New Zealanders the issues that keep getting alluded to but
never really directly addressed, so that anywhere, anytime, I'll be happy.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Obviously you want to do it and put it all.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Right, well, that would be nice, but I'm happy if
you do it to go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
You could come and do it up here with me
and bring some bring some economic developments into my part
of the world. But I'm sure you want to bring
it to yours right, Yes, we'll that to yet, okay,
and then are you happy to wait till November?

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, nothing really will happen in November other than that
people yell at each other, you know. So if I
sit in a if I'm in a select committee and
I'm making a submission, I'm giving him a ten minutes.
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
I'm not suggesting you have to go to a select committee.
What I mean is are you happy to wait until
we've actually seen the draft of the bill in November.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
So David's made allusion to the alluded to the fact
that he thinks will be surprised with what he has
as to offer up. Yeah, but if you have a
read of what x website says about everything to do
with this issue, it's not really credible that it's going
to be a departure from that. And so that's a
marginal consideration. I mean, if we wait till November and

(01:49):
he has a debate, then cool. Truly, I'd be happy
then too. It's just really about engaging with the issue
and letting New Zealanders actually hear the range of considerations
that are relevant.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
That's all I'm after now, I think fair enough, But
why does he need to debate No disrespect to you,
but why does he need to debate you on this
when he can actually be having that debate with other
elected parliamentarians when the bill is put before the house.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Have you ever been to parliament? Have you listened to
what they say? And then that's not that's not a
deliberation exercise. They just talk at each other, play games.
No one, This is a good faith invitation. So I
actually know David a bit. I've spent a bit of
time with him. I actually think he's a genuine person.
I think he believes entirely what he's trying to do.

(02:37):
So this is a good faith exercise to surface for
the country the breadth of issues that are in play.
I'm not looking for an entertainment exercise or to embarrass David.
I really am trying to just surface for New Zealanders,
both sides of the debate. It's that important.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Hey, on the general subject of whether we need to
have a debate on this, what do you reckon excellently?
You're cool about it, just because a lot of people
are pretty opposed to the fact that he's raised this
at all. But you're saying this is okay for us.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
To do well. I think that one of the big
mistakes that's been made around the world and other democracy
is that people have retrenched into positions where they actually
don't talk to each other anymore, and it's created you know,
the democracies around the world. The United States is probably
one of the biggest messes in that regard. So we
don't want to go down that route. So let's have

(03:28):
the conversation in a respectful, open dialogue and then let's
play it out. That's all I'm looking for.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
If we have the debate helmet, it's always possible that
it goes at the end result. I mean, because regardless
of what this particular parliament may do, it may be
around for the next parliament, and it may be that
he actually has support and he passes the Treaty Principles
Bill into law. How would you feel about that, whatever
it is?

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, yeah, well, look, there's a key issue that keeps
getting conflated. Right, So David keeps talking about democracy. Democracy
has not actually got anything to do with truth. If
we had half the population were color blind and all
voted that the sky was green, it wouldn't really change
the fact that it's not right. And so the historical

(04:13):
reality that relates to titidity, your white tongue, and what
it is to say and what it means, that's not
a debate. But the debate is what are we going
to do about it in the twenty fifth century? Now,
that is a conversation with having. Now, if the majority
of New Zealanders actually end up in a place that
does violence to the facts, to the truth, to the

(04:36):
legitimacy of the position as it's laid out, then that's
a call that New Zealanders will make. I don't believe
they will. I think, in fact, that this is a
last gasp Anglo Saxon kickback of baby boomers and those
at that end of their life cycle. If you spoke
to most New Zealanders of forty years or under, they

(04:56):
will have a very different attitude to most of this stuff.
So I'm not particularly concerned about where it will land.
For the reason is that, you know, to be frank,
We're right. The treaty does say what it says, and
all we have to figure out is what are we
going to do about it? In the twenty fifth century. Now,
we were on a trajectory of figuring that out. Now.
I knew it was discomforting to some people, but we

(05:18):
had for three or four decades we've been on a
pathway of truth and reconciliation and figuring that out. That's
all we got to do. Get back on that path
and keep talking.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Helmet. It's good to talk to you, mate, Thank you
very much, really appreciate it. Is Helmet Modlock. Modlock, who
is the chief executive of NATI, tour the eway around Wellington.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
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