March 20, 2025 • 8 mins
Winston Peters has concluded his trip to the United States where he met with US Secretary Marco Rubio.
Peters has given little insight into the meeting, but said it was successful.
Former Australian Prime Minister Malcom Turnbull has been outspoken about standing up to the Trump administration, does he agree with Peters approach to the US President?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yes. Winston Peters has concluded his visit to the United
States without a splash is exactly how our government prefers it.
Peters has been very diplomatic about his meeting with US
Secretary of State Marco Rubio. He said it was a
successful meeting, but wouldn't go into many details about what
the US wants from New Zealand. Malcolm Turnbull is Australia's
(00:20):
former Prime minister. He's been outspoken about standing up to
the US administration. He joins me now, mister Turnbull, good.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Afternoon, good afternoon, great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Thank you. Winston Peters has been has concluded as some
of his meetings in the US, he's been taking a
sort of head down, headlow, polite, don't say anything to
frighten the horses. Do you agree with that approach.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, look, it's probably it's fair enough.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I mean, in a sense, it doesn't really really What
really matters is what he says.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
What you say privately, you know, in the.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Direct discussions, that's the important thing. As long as you're
standing up country. In the private discussions, you can be
as you know, as.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Just discreet and polite, I suppose flattering. In the in
the pressure releases.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
You know, the real the real question is what's happening
inside the room.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I gather you don't feel quite as constrained these days.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Well no, look I know, of course not. I'm not
not you know I'm a former prime minister. So but
the no, I'm free to speak my own mind, just
as you are.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Do you think, though, given your position as a former
prime ministrobacy, you have standing and your words are going
to be obviously reported and get some attention. How do
you sort of navigate you saying what you really want
to say versus how is this going to help Australia?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Well, I think you know we were astray. All of
us have an.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Interest in in free speech. I mean, what can you
just give me an example. I'm struggling to understand the
point you're trying to make.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I think a few size Donald Trump, and we all
have our feelings about Donald Trump. But if you say
something that doesn't quite fit him with the Australian government
wants to take a more softly softly approach, and you
sort of put your head above the parapet and attract
his attention in a way that they might not be
happy with. Is I'm not meaning this as a really
hard question or something, but how do you navigate what
(02:19):
the Australian government wants versus malcol time.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I mean, the Australian Government's got to manage its own affairs.
I mean, I'm a you know, I speak my own mind. Yeah,
And I'm not going to censor myself to avoid the
wrath of Donald Trump. And I don't think anyone should.
I mean, he he is a bully and he seeks
to well, I mean, look at the ways try and
look at the extraordinary bullying of.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
That Federal Court judge that's going on at the moment.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
You know, he's calling for the guy to be impeached
and called him a radical left wing lunatic and he
was actually appointed by George W.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Bush.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
So and it doesn't look to me to be either radical,
lunatic or left but you know, like it's it's perfectly obvious.
I mean, if a court, I mean, what Trump is
doing is attacking the judiciary in an attempt to intimidate it.
So that you know, if you're you know, perhaps you
should suggest to Americans that they should censor themselves and
(03:15):
not speak up for fear of being criticized by the President.
I mean, really, I just look, I'm sorry, I'm an
old fashioned free speech person and I believe that you
should people should stand up and state their views. Obviously,
if you're in government, you've you know, you could got
(03:35):
to be more perhaps discrete or tactical than others. But
but really, you know, you can't let the bullies win,
and you can't let them go unchecked full stop.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
How would you be managing the relationship if you were Prime.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Minister of which country mine or yours?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, let's well you can you can offer your thoughts
on either. Let's start with Australia, and then you can.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Well, well, look, I've yeah, starting with Australia, that's the
one I understand the best. Look, you've just got to
be true to yourself. You've got to stand up for
your own country. You have to recognize that, particularly with Trump,
you're dealing with a guy who believes might is right,
who is a bully, I mean, makes no bones about that,
(04:19):
and he's highly transactional. So you've got to set aside
all sorts of sentiment and naive views that you know,
Washington has altruistic views, you know, affection for US I mean,
we kid ourselves in this part of the world that
you know, we've got a you know, a big big
brother over there in Washington who's always got our best
(04:42):
interests at heart. Now, look, I hope they do, and
I hope they do most of the time, but you
can't assume that. So we have to stand our ground
and be as hard headed and objective about our position
as they are about theirs.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
It's so in other words, nothing personal, it's business.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
What's your take on the negotiations that we've seen sort
of unfolding with the Ukraine and the USA and Russia
obviously with Putin and Trump.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Well, look, I hope a peace can be achieved, but
you know, so far, Donald Trump has used his muscle
to force Zelenski to agree to.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You know, to agree to cease fire.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
You know, it would have been a lot better if
he'd used his muscle to pressure Putin, but so far
he's used all the muscle and power to essentially kneecap
Zelenski with drew military assistance, with drew intelligence sharing. Now
that's been restored, so that's good. But now he's got
to deal with Putin, and so far he hasn't really
(05:52):
got anything out of him.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I mean, they've.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
They're a long way from getting to a peace deal.
I'm afraid that they've agreed read to apparently thirty days,
you know, a cessation of attacks on each other's energy infrastructure.
But then no soon had press that press release gone
out than the Russians attacked the Ukrainian energy infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I mean, I have to say, you know, you would
have hoped that the Trump would have said to Putin
if you don't, you know, come to a realistic deal
on the that that ensures Ukraine continues as a sovereign,
independent state, then we will give them, you know, every
(06:41):
bit of military assistance they need and more. But instead,
what he's done is effectively sided with the weaker, the invaded,
the wronged party. And that's not very edifying, is it?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Just?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
This might be a slightly trivial question to ask, but
Trump likes people who if you're a friend to try,
he's a friend to you. He admires Putin.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
It seems.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And I was just curious that Putin kept him waiting
for a couple of hours, and I was wondering, is
there a point where Trump might decide, actually, maybe Putin's
not my friend.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, I don't know. I mean, he is fascinated by Putin.
I've seen that firsthand. But he's but he's you know,
he's fascinated by Putin. He likes strong men, you know,
he likes Erduwan in Turkey, or Ban in Hungary, siegein Ping.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You know that's I guess that's that's what he'd like to.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Be, you know, a kind of a strong man, a
dictator that that can't be checked. Didn't he say he
was going to be dictator on day one? I think,
and in the campaign, so you know, Trump does say
the quiet bits out loud. But you know, as far
as friendship concerned, Trump's fallen out with a lot of people.
(07:50):
So I wouldn't you know that you suggested that if
Trump is your friend, he's you know, his friend for life.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I mean, that's that is not this.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
There are countless people, libraries of books written by people
who's fallen out with.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, Malcolm Turnble, thanks for your time. Really appreciated this
form of primer. Australian PM Melcom Turnble. It says interesting,
I never had quite worked out my thoughts on his
approach to diplomacy givenies no longer in the gig. For
more from Hither duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to news
talks It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
Yes. Winston Peters has concluded his visit to the United
States without a splash is exactly how our government prefers it.
Peters has been very diplomatic about his meeting with US
Secretary of State Marco Rubio. He said it was a
successful meeting, but wouldn't go into many details about what
the US wants from New Zealand. Malcolm Turnbull is Australia's
(00:20):
former Prime minister. He's been outspoken about standing up to
the US administration. He joins me now, mister Turnbull, good.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Afternoon, good afternoon, great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Thank you. Winston Peters has been has concluded as some
of his meetings in the US, he's been taking a
sort of head down, headlow, polite, don't say anything to
frighten the horses. Do you agree with that approach.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, look, it's probably it's fair enough.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I mean, in a sense, it doesn't really really What
really matters is what he says.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
What you say privately, you know, in the.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Direct discussions, that's the important thing. As long as you're
standing up country. In the private discussions, you can be
as you know, as.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Just discreet and polite, I suppose flattering. In the in
the pressure releases.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
You know, the real the real question is what's happening
inside the room.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I gather you don't feel quite as constrained these days.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Well no, look I know, of course not. I'm not
not you know I'm a former prime minister. So but
the no, I'm free to speak my own mind, just
as you are.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Do you think, though, given your position as a former
prime ministrobacy, you have standing and your words are going
to be obviously reported and get some attention. How do
you sort of navigate you saying what you really want
to say versus how is this going to help Australia?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Well, I think you know we were astray. All of
us have an.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Interest in in free speech. I mean, what can you
just give me an example. I'm struggling to understand the
point you're trying to make.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I think a few size Donald Trump, and we all
have our feelings about Donald Trump. But if you say
something that doesn't quite fit him with the Australian government
wants to take a more softly softly approach, and you
sort of put your head above the parapet and attract
his attention in a way that they might not be
happy with. Is I'm not meaning this as a really
hard question or something, but how do you navigate what
(02:19):
the Australian government wants versus malcol time.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I mean, the Australian Government's got to manage its own affairs.
I mean, I'm a you know, I speak my own mind. Yeah,
And I'm not going to censor myself to avoid the
wrath of Donald Trump. And I don't think anyone should.
I mean, he he is a bully and he seeks
to well, I mean, look at the ways try and
look at the extraordinary bullying of.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
That Federal Court judge that's going on at the moment.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
You know, he's calling for the guy to be impeached
and called him a radical left wing lunatic and he
was actually appointed by George W.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Bush.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
So and it doesn't look to me to be either radical,
lunatic or left but you know, like it's it's perfectly obvious.
I mean, if a court, I mean, what Trump is
doing is attacking the judiciary in an attempt to intimidate it.
So that you know, if you're you know, perhaps you
should suggest to Americans that they should censor themselves and
(03:15):
not speak up for fear of being criticized by the President.
I mean, really, I just look, I'm sorry, I'm an
old fashioned free speech person and I believe that you
should people should stand up and state their views. Obviously,
if you're in government, you've you know, you could got
(03:35):
to be more perhaps discrete or tactical than others. But
but really, you know, you can't let the bullies win,
and you can't let them go unchecked full stop.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
How would you be managing the relationship if you were Prime.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Minister of which country mine or yours?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, let's well you can you can offer your thoughts
on either. Let's start with Australia, and then you can.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Well, well, look, I've yeah, starting with Australia, that's the
one I understand the best. Look, you've just got to
be true to yourself. You've got to stand up for
your own country. You have to recognize that, particularly with Trump,
you're dealing with a guy who believes might is right,
who is a bully, I mean, makes no bones about that,
(04:19):
and he's highly transactional. So you've got to set aside
all sorts of sentiment and naive views that you know,
Washington has altruistic views, you know, affection for US I mean,
we kid ourselves in this part of the world that
you know, we've got a you know, a big big
brother over there in Washington who's always got our best
(04:42):
interests at heart. Now, look, I hope they do, and
I hope they do most of the time, but you
can't assume that. So we have to stand our ground
and be as hard headed and objective about our position
as they are about theirs.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
It's so in other words, nothing personal, it's business.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
What's your take on the negotiations that we've seen sort
of unfolding with the Ukraine and the USA and Russia
obviously with Putin and Trump.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Well, look, I hope a peace can be achieved, but
you know, so far, Donald Trump has used his muscle
to force Zelenski to agree to.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You know, to agree to cease fire.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
You know, it would have been a lot better if
he'd used his muscle to pressure Putin, but so far
he's used all the muscle and power to essentially kneecap
Zelenski with drew military assistance, with drew intelligence sharing. Now
that's been restored, so that's good. But now he's got
to deal with Putin, and so far he hasn't really
(05:52):
got anything out of him.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I mean, they've.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
They're a long way from getting to a peace deal.
I'm afraid that they've agreed read to apparently thirty days,
you know, a cessation of attacks on each other's energy infrastructure.
But then no soon had press that press release gone
out than the Russians attacked the Ukrainian energy infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I mean, I have to say, you know, you would
have hoped that the Trump would have said to Putin
if you don't, you know, come to a realistic deal
on the that that ensures Ukraine continues as a sovereign,
independent state, then we will give them, you know, every
(06:41):
bit of military assistance they need and more. But instead,
what he's done is effectively sided with the weaker, the invaded,
the wronged party. And that's not very edifying, is it?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Just?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
This might be a slightly trivial question to ask, but
Trump likes people who if you're a friend to try,
he's a friend to you. He admires Putin.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
It seems.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And I was just curious that Putin kept him waiting
for a couple of hours, and I was wondering, is
there a point where Trump might decide, actually, maybe Putin's
not my friend.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, I don't know. I mean, he is fascinated by Putin.
I've seen that firsthand. But he's but he's you know,
he's fascinated by Putin. He likes strong men, you know,
he likes Erduwan in Turkey, or Ban in Hungary, siegein Ping.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You know that's I guess that's that's what he'd like to.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Be, you know, a kind of a strong man, a
dictator that that can't be checked. Didn't he say he
was going to be dictator on day one? I think,
and in the campaign, so you know, Trump does say
the quiet bits out loud. But you know, as far
as friendship concerned, Trump's fallen out with a lot of people.
(07:50):
So I wouldn't you know that you suggested that if
Trump is your friend, he's you know, his friend for life.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I mean, that's that is not this.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
There are countless people, libraries of books written by people
who's fallen out with.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, Malcolm Turnble, thanks for your time. Really appreciated this
form of primer. Australian PM Melcom Turnble. It says interesting,
I never had quite worked out my thoughts on his
approach to diplomacy givenies no longer in the gig. For
more from Hither duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to news
talks It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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