A new report shines a light on the balance of power gangs hold in prisons - and how it impacts other inmates.
A Corrections-commissioned study, chiefly authored by criminologist Jarrod Gilbert, shows gang-affiliated prisoners has doubled over the past decade.
Corrections deputy director for men's prisons, Neil Beales, says there's been a noticeable increase in violent acts carried out by prisoners connected to the gangs.
"What we are seeing is an increase in violence, particularly in some of the newer gangs...also, there's the resources and the money that they have to carry out some of their criminal activities."
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Our prisons are a recruiting ground for gangs. This is
according to a new report from the researcher doctor Jared Gilbert,
which found the top dog model of leadership and prisons
has now shifted and there are groups of gangs running
our prisons. Non gang members are put under pressure to
join the gangs because they obviously need protection, leading to
calls for greatest segregation amongst our prison population. Neil Beels
(00:23):
is the Corrections Deputy Director for Men's Prisons. Neil Good afternoon,
Good afternoon, Ryan. Is it true to say that gangs
are running our prisons?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
No, it's not true, and I don't think that's what
the report says. The report says that they have an
assumed power in prison, and I think what is fair
and what I'll say first and foremost is this is
actually a very good report and very helpful to us.
What is fair to recognize is that power gangs do
hold some power in prisons because of the very nature
of the things that they do, the violence they perpetuate,
(00:56):
the risks that they run, the contraband that they organize
to bring in, etc. There's always been us it's been
the case for decades. It isn't anything new for us
in terms of dealing with that kind of behavior from gangs.
So what we are seeing is an increase, particularly by
some of the newer gangs. We're seeing an increase in
the violence perpetuated and also just the resources and the
(01:17):
money that they have to carry out some of their
criminal activities.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yes, that requires, I mean for them to do that
because they're doing drugs on the inside. They've got cell
phones on the inside, We're seeing them doing the common cheers,
doing hackers. They've managed to film that, get the footage
out on the outside. You say they're not running the place,
but they're clearly running a mark.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
They're not running a mark. Look, we have handfuls of
incidence in prisons all the time, right, that's the nature
of prisons. We deal with people who don't surprisingly just
start behaving themselves a minute they come through the door.
They want to carry on behaving in the way that
they do. We operate anywhere between thirty five and forty
percent of gang or gang members or gang affiliated people
(01:59):
in at any given time, we're currently operating in our
prison system that ten thousand, five hundred people ten thousand,
four hundred to five hundred people. That's an awful lot
of people. And when you look at the number of
incidents that we're dealing with, relatively few compared to what
we could be dealing with if we weren't doing the
things that we are doing very well, which again I
(02:21):
think is highlighted in the report here.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
So what happens at the moment, What happens at the
moment with gang members in terms of segregation, like do
you segregate them so that the gang members who are
all in one gang are together, or do you segregate
the rival gang members from each other? How does it work?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
No, we don't have gang only units. That's been proven
through research elsewhere and looking at overseas models that it's
just not a good model. What we tend to do
is we try and balance the power out within units.
So you might have a unit forraday mistake. You go
on to my old prison that I used to run
in Aubland. You know, you go in there, you might
see on any given landing two or three Mongol Mob,
(03:02):
two or three Black Power two or three tribesmen. And
then you try and keep that that that kind of
balance going. And as Jared reflects in his report. It's
kind of like the Cold War. You know, if there's
if there's a balance of power, then nobody can take control.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Always We're sorry, sorry, continue so that.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
That doesn't always work. When when you are dealing with
the different security classifications, not all gang members will be
high security or maximum security. There will be some in
the lower security echelons as well. You've also then got
to think of those who are voluntarily segregated, that they
may be under threat because of the type of offense
that they've committed. There may be in depth of the
gang members, there may be in fear of the gang members.
(03:43):
So the the kind of the ecosystem that we deal
with is not as simplistic and as easy as what
some people may think it is. If you know, if
you just lock them up, then you've solved the problem.
You haven't solved the problem. You're just you're probably just
ignoring the problem is if all you're doing is operating
a containment of peration, because that will have a time
and of it, and eventually you will be dealing with
other issues as well.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
The sad part about all this is the civilians, or
what they call the neutrals, or in this report, they
called sometimes peasants or bundies. These are just people who
aren't members of gangs and the bottom of the food chain.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, and and and again. You know that that's a
sad nature of prison, right, you know, you're dealing with
criminal elements in prison, people and people who will take
advantage of those deemed to be more vulnerable or weaker
than others. And that's exactly what we see gangs doing
on the outside. Do you do they do this in
the communities they come from.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Do you do drug testing? How many of our prison
population are on drugs?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
We do do drug testing. We do it for various reasons.
So we have random drug testing operations going on, so
we can you know, we can literally just press a
button on a machine and all tell us to go
and and randomly drug test a percentage of our population
at any given time. And that's what gives us our percentage.
I'll get I'll get our team to send those figures
onto your if you is it hard to do? No,
(05:02):
it's come down a lot, and we see it flot
you eight. It's come down a little bit over over
recent years, but we have seen peaks, particularly when we
see if you look at the Matthews. Last year, it
was reported Matthews in New Zealand. I'm not talking about prisons.
I'm talking about New Zealands in general. Matthews doubled last year.
So what you see prison prisons are a microcosm of society.
(05:22):
So what happens on the outside happens on the inside only.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
But the point is you're in prison. You're not meant
to be able to get your hands on meath right.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So well clearly and you're not. You're also not supposed
to be violent against other people, and you're not supposed
to intimidate other people. But these are criminal elements of
our society and they will do whatever they need to do.
So Ryan, imagine you're an officer and you get offered
thirty thousand dollars to bring a cell phone in. That
is what our staff are dealing with now. I mean
(05:52):
the common cerios and mongols have got incredible resources. I was,
I've been at rim attack of prison. You talk to
the talk to the general manager room at a prison.
He will tell you these are the challenges that his
officer say.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
How do you stop how do you stop them accepting
the money?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Well, it all comes down to good selection, good training,
and as Jared points out in his report, you know,
we need to make sure that we are learning and
have a we need to have an environment where staffield
that can come safely and tell us, look, I've being
approached by these people. This spble to do and the
vast majority do. Let's make no jokes about this. Yeah,
the vast majority of our staff will stand up against
this report it We will deal with it, but it
(06:29):
is incessant. You know, the gangs are pervasive. They have
a deep reach in our communities, they have a deep
reach in our prisons. It's a reality that we deal
with every single day.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Right Neil, Neil. We have to leave it here, Neil,
but I appreciate you coming on the program. A fascinating
report to have a read of. You can find it
on the HEROLD website. Actually, Neil Bill's who's been with
us from Corrections. He's the Correction's Deputy Commissioner for men's prisons.
Time is sixteen after four. The number is nine to
nine two. Would love to get your ticks on this.
Darcy Waldegrave here nix with Small for more from Hither
(07:01):
Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to News Talk SETB from
four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
Our prisons are a recruiting ground for gangs. This is
according to a new report from the researcher doctor Jared Gilbert,
which found the top dog model of leadership and prisons
has now shifted and there are groups of gangs running
our prisons. Non gang members are put under pressure to
join the gangs because they obviously need protection, leading to
calls for greatest segregation amongst our prison population. Neil Beels
(00:23):
is the Corrections Deputy Director for Men's Prisons. Neil Good afternoon,
Good afternoon, Ryan. Is it true to say that gangs
are running our prisons?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
No, it's not true, and I don't think that's what
the report says. The report says that they have an
assumed power in prison, and I think what is fair
and what I'll say first and foremost is this is
actually a very good report and very helpful to us.
What is fair to recognize is that power gangs do
hold some power in prisons because of the very nature
of the things that they do, the violence they perpetuate,
(00:56):
the risks that they run, the contraband that they organize
to bring in, etc. There's always been us it's been
the case for decades. It isn't anything new for us
in terms of dealing with that kind of behavior from gangs.
So what we are seeing is an increase, particularly by
some of the newer gangs. We're seeing an increase in
the violence perpetuated and also just the resources and the
(01:17):
money that they have to carry out some of their
criminal activities.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yes, that requires, I mean for them to do that
because they're doing drugs on the inside. They've got cell
phones on the inside, We're seeing them doing the common cheers,
doing hackers. They've managed to film that, get the footage
out on the outside. You say they're not running the place,
but they're clearly running a mark.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
They're not running a mark. Look, we have handfuls of
incidence in prisons all the time, right, that's the nature
of prisons. We deal with people who don't surprisingly just
start behaving themselves a minute they come through the door.
They want to carry on behaving in the way that
they do. We operate anywhere between thirty five and forty
percent of gang or gang members or gang affiliated people
(01:59):
in at any given time, we're currently operating in our
prison system that ten thousand, five hundred people ten thousand,
four hundred to five hundred people. That's an awful lot
of people. And when you look at the number of
incidents that we're dealing with, relatively few compared to what
we could be dealing with if we weren't doing the
things that we are doing very well, which again I
(02:21):
think is highlighted in the report here.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
So what happens at the moment, What happens at the
moment with gang members in terms of segregation, like do
you segregate them so that the gang members who are
all in one gang are together, or do you segregate
the rival gang members from each other? How does it work?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
No, we don't have gang only units. That's been proven
through research elsewhere and looking at overseas models that it's
just not a good model. What we tend to do
is we try and balance the power out within units.
So you might have a unit forraday mistake. You go
on to my old prison that I used to run
in Aubland. You know, you go in there, you might
see on any given landing two or three Mongol Mob,
(03:02):
two or three Black Power two or three tribesmen. And
then you try and keep that that that kind of
balance going. And as Jared reflects in his report. It's
kind of like the Cold War. You know, if there's
if there's a balance of power, then nobody can take control.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Always We're sorry, sorry, continue so that.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
That doesn't always work. When when you are dealing with
the different security classifications, not all gang members will be
high security or maximum security. There will be some in
the lower security echelons as well. You've also then got
to think of those who are voluntarily segregated, that they
may be under threat because of the type of offense
that they've committed. There may be in depth of the
gang members, there may be in fear of the gang members.
(03:43):
So the the kind of the ecosystem that we deal
with is not as simplistic and as easy as what
some people may think it is. If you know, if
you just lock them up, then you've solved the problem.
You haven't solved the problem. You're just you're probably just
ignoring the problem is if all you're doing is operating
a containment of peration, because that will have a time
and of it, and eventually you will be dealing with
other issues as well.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
The sad part about all this is the civilians, or
what they call the neutrals, or in this report, they
called sometimes peasants or bundies. These are just people who
aren't members of gangs and the bottom of the food chain.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, and and and again. You know that that's a
sad nature of prison, right, you know, you're dealing with
criminal elements in prison, people and people who will take
advantage of those deemed to be more vulnerable or weaker
than others. And that's exactly what we see gangs doing
on the outside. Do you do they do this in
the communities they come from.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Do you do drug testing? How many of our prison
population are on drugs?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
We do do drug testing. We do it for various reasons.
So we have random drug testing operations going on, so
we can you know, we can literally just press a
button on a machine and all tell us to go
and and randomly drug test a percentage of our population
at any given time. And that's what gives us our percentage.
I'll get I'll get our team to send those figures
onto your if you is it hard to do? No,
(05:02):
it's come down a lot, and we see it flot
you eight. It's come down a little bit over over
recent years, but we have seen peaks, particularly when we
see if you look at the Matthews. Last year, it
was reported Matthews in New Zealand. I'm not talking about prisons.
I'm talking about New Zealands in general. Matthews doubled last year.
So what you see prison prisons are a microcosm of society.
(05:22):
So what happens on the outside happens on the inside only.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
But the point is you're in prison. You're not meant
to be able to get your hands on meath right.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So well clearly and you're not. You're also not supposed
to be violent against other people, and you're not supposed
to intimidate other people. But these are criminal elements of
our society and they will do whatever they need to do.
So Ryan, imagine you're an officer and you get offered
thirty thousand dollars to bring a cell phone in. That
is what our staff are dealing with now. I mean
(05:52):
the common cerios and mongols have got incredible resources. I was,
I've been at rim attack of prison. You talk to
the talk to the general manager room at a prison.
He will tell you these are the challenges that his
officer say.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
How do you stop how do you stop them accepting
the money?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Well, it all comes down to good selection, good training,
and as Jared points out in his report, you know,
we need to make sure that we are learning and
have a we need to have an environment where staffield
that can come safely and tell us, look, I've being
approached by these people. This spble to do and the
vast majority do. Let's make no jokes about this. Yeah,
the vast majority of our staff will stand up against
this report it We will deal with it, but it
(06:29):
is incessant. You know, the gangs are pervasive. They have
a deep reach in our communities, they have a deep
reach in our prisons. It's a reality that we deal
with every single day.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Right Neil, Neil. We have to leave it here, Neil,
but I appreciate you coming on the program. A fascinating
report to have a read of. You can find it
on the HEROLD website. Actually, Neil Bill's who's been with
us from Corrections. He's the Correction's Deputy Commissioner for men's prisons.
Time is sixteen after four. The number is nine to
nine two. Would love to get your ticks on this.
Darcy Waldegrave here nix with Small for more from Hither
(07:01):
Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to News Talk SETB from
four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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