Nicola Toki: we wouldn't risk Kākāpō for mining, so why not do the same for lizards?

The Department of Conservation's declined a permit to clear vegetation at the Central Otago site - citing missing details on rehoming thousands of lizards. 

Resources Minister Shane Jones has voiced frustration it puts hundreds of jobs at risk. 

But Chief Executive of the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society, Nicola Toki, says the lizards' existence are already under threat so mining would put their population on the brink of extinction.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now Doc, they might be doing a bit of a
U turn. This is the case of the lizards and
the mine in Otago. So initially they denied the mining
company Oceania Gold, permission to clear grass and vegetation. Off
their mind this was over the concern about the lizard
relocation plan. But Ruth Isaac from DOC has gotten in
touch with us says there was a miscommunication and the

(00:23):
Department will now work closely with Oceania Gold to quote
swiftly progress their application. Resources Minister and Martyr of Mining
Shane Jones said this morning that he felt concerns were
a bit overblown about these ten thousand lizards.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
These lizards are as common as acne on a teenager.
That's first thing. Secondly, they are scattered throughout the entirety
of Otago. Every time a farmer does something on his
or her land, they don't need a special wildlife permit.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
So Nikola Tokey is Forest and Bird Chief Executive with me. Now, Hi, Nikola,
gyeeddo Ryan?

Speaker 3 (00:58):
How are you good?

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Thank you?

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Sounds like DOC might be changing their minds a little
bit here.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Hard to say at this point. What they're saying from
what I get is that they're looking for further information.
But I just wonder whether we, you know, should just
focus on facts not feelings. And I worry. I guess
I'm a little bit worried about Shane Jones. He seems
rather fixated on small reptiles at the moment in this country.

(01:28):
But yeah, this is about a business needing to follow
due process in order to carry out their works, much
like many of your business owner listeners will have to
do in their daily lives. And they didn't have the
right information to the table, and as such the department
was unable to progress what they wanted to do at
that point.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
What is it about so clearing some vegetation? Could it
really kill ten thousand lizards? Or is that overblown?

Speaker 3 (01:53):
No? So the issue here is in New Zealand. And
you know we often talk about New Zealand being called
being the land of birds. Probably more accurately, we could
be and should be known as the land of lizards.
So we have well over one hundred species of lizard,
either geckos or skinks found here in New Zealand, found
nowhere else in the world. Right, So once you destroy

(02:13):
a habitat that these things live in, there's nowhere else
you can replace them from And I wonder Ryan whether
if they were in fact Crackapool or somehow Hector dolphins
ministry evolve to live in a tuft landscape, we'd even
be having this conversation. And what we see repeatedly from
Shane Jones, for example, is this kind of constant belittling.

(02:37):
And he loves it, right, he loves all that stick.
And I think New Zealanders are getting bad over it
because most New Zealanders care very much about our threatened
species in our native wildlife here in New Zealand and
expects that they're protected through the regulations that we have
in place.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Are the lizards we're talking about endangered?

Speaker 3 (02:53):
So all of New Zealand lizard species are threatened in
some way, shape or form because of mostly because of
the cumulative impact of the of the various threats that
they have. Right, So, if they're not getting eaten by
cats and hedgehogs and then the habitats getting destroyed by
mining companies, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
So what's the difference between threatened and endangered? Because I
asked are they endangered? And you said they're threatened?

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Well, so in New Zealand we have a threat Classification list,
and there are a number of categories on that list, right,
And if you are in the worst category, like for example,
a carcupul or a Hector's dolphin, then you sit within
the nationally critical. If you are just the next least worse,
you are naturally endangered. And on and on it goes

(03:38):
what politicians and decision makers sometimes to realize.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
So threatened not as bad as endangered. So they're threatened
but not endangered.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
I'm just no, no, no, no, it's not quite right, and
it's it sounds complex, but it's not.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
So.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
New Zealand has the highest proportion of threatened species on
the planet right, which is kind of embarrassing because we
love to be number one in the world. This is
a of a jubius honor. And it costs more to
protect species that are more threatened or more endangered because
you have to put so much effort into protecting them
before they once they've fallen off the cliff, if you like.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
And what happens if they do fall off the cliff?
Does the world end?

Speaker 3 (04:17):
I think part of our identity and how we describe
ourselves to the world ends. We also have international and
national legislative requirements that you know in New Zealanders very
much here about this stuff.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, but does the ecosystem fall apart?

Speaker 3 (04:32):
Yeah, So every time you pull a species or remove
a species from an ecosystem, the resilience of that ecosystem
gets less and less. It's like taking instruments out of
an orchestra, right, and ultimately the resilience of that ecosystem
and the fragile nature of it threatens us. So it's
really important and reconsibility.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
Just clearing the vegetation, won't the lizards just move to
the next but of grass?

Speaker 3 (05:00):
I mean, that's very much sounds like Luke Clark and
Door's sketch about the the boat with the with the
oil leak, that they're just going to tow it out
of the environment. These these these things they can move
millions of years to exist in the various habitats and
niches that they've found. But look, I do want to
get to the facts here because what's happened with Minister

(05:21):
Jones and Nichol.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
I'm just I'm just want to I'm genuinely trying to
get my head about it. Cat can they not just
move to the next paddock?

Speaker 3 (05:31):
It's not that simple, Ryan, because these things to be
protected well because in the next paddock there may well
be cats and hedgehogs or that you know it might
not have.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
There are no cats and hedgehogs in this in this
in this area.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
It's not serving your listener as well to simplify an
issue as complex as New Zealand's ecology that defines the film.
But why I do want to come out of business.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
I'm a simple person. I'm simple person. I'm just trying
to get a simple answer. That's all it is.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
Okay, Well, simply put the using their lizards in this case,
or the moths or at one point, I think Minister
Jones was blaming EWE Consultation as a distraction for what
the real issue is here. So this is a business right.
This is a company that has had their application recommended
for decline by the Attager Regional Council, initially declined by Zock,

(06:21):
has had two separate audits to look into the fact
that they repeatedly breached their resource consent requirements. And the
reason that you know, anybody is putting this kind of
business at risk is not the lizards skittering around the landscape.
It's a bad business with bad business Prectice that answered
filling their normal requirements.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Nichola, we have tolieve it. They appreciate you coming on
the show. Nikola, Takey Forest and Bird chief executive.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Listen live to news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays,
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