Paul Barber: Salvation Army Principal Social Policy Analyst explains why they don't want mandatory work experience for beneficiaries

The Salvation Army says sanctions on beneficiaries which force people to find volunteer work for a few hours a week isn't the best use of resources.

New 'non-financial' sanctions are set to come into force for beneficiaries who don't meet their obligations - including having part of their weekly benefit put on a payment card or finding volunteer work for at least 5 hours a week.

But Salvation Army principal social policy analyst Paul Barber doesn't believe that's the right way to go for people who are struggling to find work.

"There are already a lot of sanctions available... we're talking about a relatively small group of people within the total number of people who are receiving welfare."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now our benefits sanctions. So we've got some new benefits
sanctions kicking in today. They include requiring the beneficiaries to
find volunteer work. But this is not being met with
universal approval, including from the Salvation Army. Paul Barber is
the principal social policy analyst. Then is with us now, hey, Paul?

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, Hello, not loving to talk to you, good to
talk to you? Well, look, the Salvation Army ready welcomes
people seeking out community work experience, and it is an
important way that people can help and build up their
experience and find ways to get involved in their community

(00:36):
and reconnect and build up skills that may lead to employment.
But we certainly do not support making that mandatory, making
your requirement, making it a sanction. They don't believe that's
the right way to engage with people who are really
already struggling on to find a space in the employment market.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Why isn't it a good idea?

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well, the arts are already a lot of sanctions available.
People are already the welfare, work and income has a
whole range of things of being used heavily. We're talking
about a relatively small group of people within the total
number of people who are receiving welfare. And what happens

(01:19):
is those people are often the ones who've got multiple
and complex things going on in their lives, and they
really need to be engaged with in a way that
actually can help them deal with those issues. Rather than,
as I say, enforcement of volunteering simply doesn't work. You've
got to get beside the people. It sounds, it might sound,

(01:43):
I don't know, sound practical, but in actual fact that's
what we're doing every day in the Salvation Army. But
the people we do get beside is to find the
ways to engage positively to help people change their lives.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Paul, I mean if I would imagine that what they're
trying to do here the government is basically get people
who've just gotten to this rut of laziness, get them
off out of the couch, off the couch, out of
the lounge room, engaging with people and starting to join
a community again. Right, If it's not going to be
volunteer work, how do you do it?

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Well? First of all, I don't think that's necessarily what's
going on. Often it's at some ate as we find
when we are engaging to support people who are trying
to deal with working income and been told have been
sanctioned or been threatened with sanctions. The fact is it's
a simple communication issue. The ministry doesn't isn't able to
get hold of that person. For instance, often people don't

(02:35):
even have credit on their phones. They may not have
a phone. They struggle to get through on these eight
hundred numbers where they can be left waiting for ages
or they miss return calls because I.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Guess I get those are the wrinkles of the situation.
But in some cases we just need kids, young people
especially to get out of the house and have a
shower and go and engage with the world. Right, if
it's not going to be volunteer work, what is it
that gets them out?

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Well, certainly volunteer work can be part of that. And
what we're saying is, let's do that in a constructive way,
not as a punishment, as a sanction, but as just
simply something that Work and Income does with all its clients,
attempting to engage them in a positive pathway towards work
with employers who are willing to take a chance on

(03:25):
people and provide a working situation. That recognize is that
sometimes people come in offer of welfare of had a
rough ride and may well struggle to meet you.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
To enter people who take the piss right. You know,
there are people who are just sitting there playing games
all day. You know they exist.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, And of course we are are also working with
people who are pretty challenging. Get some people who can
be pretty challenging. But that's not just the point.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
The thing is, you can't rely on old mate who's
nineteen years old and playing grand theft auto to want
to go out and hang out with a self army
unless you make it compulsory. So how else do you
do it?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well? What what is known as works is that positive?
For instance, if I can explain to you, the Ministry
of Social Development has reallocated people away from working on
work that was designed to identify people at risk of
becoming homeless before they became homeless, so prevention work. Social

(04:26):
Development has stopped doing that work to so that frontline
people can be applied to working on sanctions for people now.
So our plea is actually that work identifying trying to
prevent people getting into these situations that work to support
organizations constructively. For instance. You know, as far as I'm aware,

(04:48):
there is no additional resourcing being offered to any of
the n g os that people are being asked to
volunteer with to be involved in this program. We would
be looking instead for the ministry to take a constructive
approach a lot to fundwork that actually helps unwrap the
complex situations that some people are in.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
All Right, Paul, thank you very much. I do appreciate it.
That's Paul Barber, principal social policy analyst at Salvation Army.
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