Peter Boshier: Chief Ombudsman voices concerns with treatment of prisoners

The Chief Ombudsman says our treatment of New Zealand's most dangerous prisoners does not support rehabilitation. 

The Prisoners of Extreme Risk Unit holds 13 of the countries worst offenders, including the Christchurch mosque shooter. 

Peter Boshier says their treatment is cruel, inhuman, and degrading - breaching the UN Convention against torture. 

He says his conversations with inmates raised concerns about re-integration after release.

Boshier says prisoners felt 'dead', 'full of despair', or 'hopeless' in confinement. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Chief Onwardsman, says he has serious concerns about human
rights abuses at New Zealand's most secure prison. He's released
a report on the prisoners of the Extreme Risk Unit,
which is an Aukland based prison that houses their christ
Church mosque shooter and other serious criminals. According to the report,
conditions in the unit are cruel, inhumane and in breach
of the United Nations Convention against Torture. Peter Bowsher's the

(00:22):
Chief Onwardsman, is with me this afternoon.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Good afternoon, Good afternoon to you. Ryan.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
What exactly are we doing that so bad?

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, what we're doing is this. In twenty nineteen, this
special unit was created and it has a total of
eighteen cells. It's unlike anything else you'll see in the
department's corrections in that it largely self manages, with a
minimum oversight from corrections itself. So it practices these things, Ryan,

(00:52):
solitary consignment, twenty three hours in the cell each day,
with one hour out of the cell, and in a
small concrete yard, no contact with the outside world, no
contact with anyone other than prison officers, and significantly no
attempt at rehabilitation. It's pretty stark. It's pretty dark and

(01:16):
it's pretty awful.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
So that I guess the lessoners don't shoot up a mosque.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Whatever one says about why people are in there, the
fact is, in New Zealand, we've signed up for minimum standards,
we're not reaching those standards. We say we'll do one
thing and we don't. And what concerns me is that
that's just not good enough, and it's not the way
I would have thought New Zealanders would want this rather

(01:45):
dark part of our prison system operating.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
How many hours per day should the let's take the
christ Stretch munstrata for example, how many hours per day
outside or out of cell time should they get?

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, let's not talk at any particular person. What I'd
prefer to do is say that this unit of eighteen
cells and up to eighteen prisoners has prisoners of all
types of different risks, for instance, remand prisoners who haven't
even been sentenced. So we can't just say that everyone
the same, anyone.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
In the unit. How long should they be getting They.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Should have a minimum of one hour of fresh air,
hopefully sunshine, and exercise a minimum of one hour out
of their cell each day. And when I've been through
the so called exercise areas that are joined their cells. Ryan,
They're just reading an extension of their own cells there

(02:45):
just up to the prison of themselves. No one else
is in this little exercise area. But it's the solitary
nature of the confinement. They are just there on their
own all day and every day.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Are we going to rehabilitate these people? And if not,
why should we be paying much in the way of
attention at all?

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Most prisoners, most prisoners there are one or two only
in this category, will come out of prison and have
to mix in the community. I just I despair at
the sort of person they're going to be when they
come out, when they've had no socialization, and when one
would have thought their mental state the solitary confinement is

(03:27):
becoming fairly desperate. So I would have hoped that rehabilitation
would still be on corrections radar, not just mere confinement.
In putting in pens.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
This is a resourcing issue. You know, where are where
are we best to spend our money? I mean, isn't
this the last place you would put resources just because
of the fact that most of it, well, as you say,
some of them might even be getting out.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yes, but when someone comes out of prison and immediately
causes a major serious crime. Think of all the victims
and all the damage that flows from that. I just
want to mark the point that investment in getting it
right is not just humane, it's actually protective of society
as well.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
I don't think it's did you go Did you go
inside to this unit? Did you?

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yes, I've been on twice.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Did you talk to the terb Brendan Tarran.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
I've talked to a range of people inside the unit,
and I'm specifically not going to single out a particular
person I talk to now. I'm not trying to fob
you off. I just want to keep certain people out
of the equation, out the unit.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
I mean, these are the worst of the worst in
New Zealand. What are they? What do they say? Do
they do you try and speak to them like a
normal person?

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Well, I mean they are pretty normal, normal from.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
The point of view people. You know what I mean,
And they're not normal to us?

Speaker 2 (04:58):
No, No, normal from the point of view of me.
I'm sorry, I thought you were saying, are they normal
to talk to? That? Is am I able to converse reasony?
The answer of years? Look, I don't, I don't detract
it all from the henous nature of the crime. I'm
talking of one person to another on what they say
to me, and I just think it's worth repeating two comments.

(05:19):
The confinement makes me feel I am dead, said one prisoner.
Another it's all darkness and despair, no hope. Another prisoner
I talk to all through glass walls and all through
that special system said to me that part of his
keeping a libraryutine is he had run a half marathon

(05:40):
in his cell, a half marathon in his cell. And
I tried to work out how you would actually do that,
but he assured me that he did. I mean, this
is the desperate links we are forcing these guys to
go to to survive, and I just I just want
to pose the question, is that what we want prison

(06:00):
system in New Zealand.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Peter Bosher, thank you very much your time, the chief
on boardsman. A lot of people would say absolutely yes.
I mean, if you have this quote, all darkness, despair
and no hope, I mean that's how the victims feel. Right.
On the other hand, if the person is going to
get out of prison, part of me thinks, you know, well,
we can't just have them, you know, running half marathons
in a dark cell all day. That's not very productive,

(06:23):
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