Rob Campbell: former Health NZ chair responds to suggestion that private companies build and run public hospitals

There's suggestions private companies should build - and potentially run - our public hospitals.

1News reports Health NZ is urging the Government to consider private sector help, given the investment required for dozens of hospitals.

Former Health NZ chair Rob Campbell says he believes this is being raised now as a diversion.

"It's previously been held off because the very large projects - like the Dunedin Hospital - frankly, wouldn't attract a partner to do the kind of work that needs to be done."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Health in New Zealand is urging the government to consider
allowing private companies to build and even potentially run the
country's hospitals. In addition to the issues with the new
Dunedin Hospital, Health and Z says there are more than
a dozen other large projects classified as having significant risks.
The government says it's open to exploring alternative funding. Former
Health and ZED chair Rob Campbell is with us this afternoon.

(00:22):
Kyoda Rob Cua, Jack, what do you think.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
About Sauvi or the hospital both?

Speaker 1 (00:31):
He never shy up having an opinion. Let's start with
the hospitals and finish at Saudi.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Good. That's a look. I think this is being raised now. Frankly,
it's a bit of a diversion. It is an issue.
The health officials have been working ways around privatization of
health facilities and health practices for quite some time, so

(00:57):
it's not new. A lot of work has been done
on this. It's previously been held off because the very
large projects like the need in the hospital frankly wouldn't
even attract a partner to do the kind of work
that needs to be done. Now we are having an
increasingly privatized health system by default, where the public doesn't provide.

(01:21):
If people can see a way to do it profitably,
they will in the private sector, and there's a lot
of that going on. There was a private hospital oath
them just recently, and the other providers are opening clinics
and all those kinds of things all the time. So
you really go to distinguish between the things that will
just happen in the normal course of having a significantly
privatized healthcare system and what you can do to build

(01:45):
the very large if you like base hospitals or core hospitals,
like the the needing one, where it's quite a different issue.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah. So my take with PPPs, and correct me if
I'm wrong here, is that there is no one size
fits all, right, and you can't simply take a binary
perspective and say they're all good or they're all bad.
But what are the things that we would need to
consider if going down the PPP path when it comes
to the delivery of healthcare.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
That's exactly the question we should be asking. And the
real danger here is and the reason that things like
to need in hospital and to a lesser extent because
they're a bit smaller. Fung Ai and Nelson and some
other projects are in trouble is that the necessary skills
to plan and design and prepare for these projects have

(02:37):
been lost in the New Zealand health system in recent years.
Now that's pretty but it's a fact they're not there,
and you can't solve those way if you like contracting
it out or trying to build a PPP. If you
don't have the skills to build and run a big hospital,
you almost certainly don't have the skills to prepare a
PPP structure in anything other than one which might help

(02:59):
the accounting from the government point of view, because the
money comes in from the private sector in the first instance,
but the cost won't be lower. The risks will all
still sit back with the Crown, with the government, with
the taxpayer, and so it's hugely dangerous to have people
now throwing around these ideas that, ah, it's an answer
to some of our current problems. We've lost the skills,

(03:21):
and until we rebuild those skills, and until we rebuild
a proper way of planning for hospital properties, it's incredibly dangerous.
In fact, I think it's reckless to be talking about
contracting these things out to the private sector.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
What do you make of the government's position with regards
to Needen Hospital.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Look, Duneden Hospital frankly has been a mess right from inception.
I'm not going to go back over the issue as
to whether a very large hospital should be built into
need Met decisions being taken some time ago. But in
the last five or six years there's just been a
constant merry go round of things been added and subtracted.

(04:02):
When I was in the part of the world, we
would get proposals that were called business cases. One of
them excluded any provision whatsoever for the information technology in
the hospital. How stupid is that? So you had these
roundabouts going on, this is in, that's out, this is in,
that's out, and never really focus on a proper plan
to develop over time. And this would be a hospital

(04:24):
that's built over time over time the kind of facilities
that are really needed. So it's a planning and design
and preparation issue. I think the construction part of it
is not the biggest issue, and the plane ticket frankly
is also not the biggest issue.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Right, So does that mean that Dunedin should have its
hospital built in full as originally planned.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Well as originally planned is really the open question because
There's been so many plans that have changed over time.
But I mean, this is not my decision or anyone
now in the health sector is to decision. Governments have
committed to building a certain type of hospital, and yes,
in my view, is therefore the commitment to get on
and build it, and trying to play around was, oh,

(05:10):
whether someone's built into this or you know, whether you know.
One of the ridiculous things now is oh, you may
get cheap and by not having car packs, except you
are going to have car parks. They're just going to
be private and they'll be paid with some other way.
All that mucking about is really a diversion from getting
on with the core of providing the essential facilities that
are needed in that hospital. Whether that's a good idea

(05:32):
or not doesn't really matter anymore. That decision has been
made a long time ago and they've got to get
on with it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Finally, then Rob Saudi the right call for me to
stand down.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
If he stood down, I don't know. I suspect he
was probably helped to stand down, but he's a great
New Zealand cricketer and frankly, if we've put the effort
into planning our hospitals that we put into planning our
top sports teams. We wouldn't have these problems at a target.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Really appreciate your time, Rob, That is the former tier
of Tifata water Health inzed Rob Campbell right now at
sixteen past four. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive,
listen live to News Talk zid B from four pm weekdays,
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