September 9, 2025 • 6 mins
One expert has outlined the next steps for Tom Phillips' children to recover after four years of isolation.
The manhunt for Phillips and the children came to an end yesterday, when police shot and killed him in rural Waikato.
One of his children was found with him, and the other two were located at a campsite in dense bush.
Child psychologist Sara Chatwin says for the children to feel secure, they need consistent care and unconditional love.
"Pretty much none of which these kids have had for a long time. And I'm not just talking four years, but prior to that, there was obviously some dispute."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
By the way, we'll be giving you updates. There's lots
to talk about in the Phillips case that's transpired over
the last twenty four hours, or bringing all the updates
as we go through now. As I mentioned, it's going
to be a really tough road to recovery for the
recovered Phillips children. They are now in state care. Sarah
Chatwin is a child psychologist and with us Hi Sarah, Hi, Heather,
what do you, by the way, what do you think
about that the documentary idea?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm team Heather.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I think I can't imagine what the point of that is.
So a man is now dead, his children are retraumatized,
It's just a mess. I'm a psychologist and I'm in shock.
What would be the point of that documentary? Can you
tell me what the point is? Is it making.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Heroes of the police? I don't know what the.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Point are I think I think that probably was the
point originally if you think Aboutnett from a police perspective,
as to show the effort that they're making to get
this right.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And I understand, and you know, boy, they had a
big job ahead of them because it's been four years
right now, I just don't see how this has played out,
how that necessitates a documentary that's just sensationalizing a time
in our history that we just want to let go
of and allow these children to. Oh, you know, they've
(01:12):
got a lot of hurdles. It's a journey. And I
believe in the resilience of children and people generally, but
this is a biggie. You've been living a certain way
for four years. You have seen a lot of stuff
that kids shouldn't see. You have not been exposed to
social connection and interaction. You've lost a lot of time,
you've had no education, You've been living with your dad.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
You love him, he's now dead.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
And then, as you said, you know, in years to come,
you're reliving it.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I did talk about responsible reporting yesterday when I was,
you know, talking to people about what had happened. I'm
not sure that that's a responsible documentary. I understand, and
I do appreciate, and I'm sure we all do appreciate
the links that the police went to to try to
secure a better outcome than this, more peaceful outcome than this,
(02:02):
But it hasn't happened, and this is a really, really
bad time for a whole lot of people and families.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So no, I'm team here.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
All right, Sarah. I'm pleased to get your perspective on
that now from tell me after four years in the bush,
presumably having not seen your mother and your grandparents, are
these people basically strangers to you if you're twelve, nine
to eight.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Look, I definitely think there's road to recovery there, and
those people will obviously always be a part of the
children's lives. I mean, I don't know why there was
such a fracture in this family to begin with, and
why a mother wasn't more involved in the upbringing of
her children. I don't have all the facts on that,
so I'm not going to comment to that, but I
(02:46):
think that you know, there are hopefully people that are
very willing and able to be part of these children's
lives in a secure kind of a way, but for
kids to feel secure, which points us in the direction
of consistent care, unconditional love, and physical and emotional safety
(03:07):
pretty much none of which these kids have had for
a long time.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And I'm not just talking four years, but prior to.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
That, there was obviously some dispute and things going on
in a marital relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
A relationship that wasn't quite right.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
So, you know, these kids very very quickly need to
gain that sense of security, and they need consistent care,
unconditional love.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Physical and emotional safety.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
So whoever can give them that is the right person
to be put in front of them. And I'm just
not sure who that is. I'm not in possession of
those facts, and I'm not in a position to say,
you know, where they are at the moment. I guess
there's a lot of assessment going on, right.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, So what it sounds like is, judging by what
the cops are saying, they are allowing the kids to
settle wherever it is that they're settling. This is not
with the mother, it's not with the grandparents. They're settling somewhere,
and in the weeks to come, the police will only
interview them with an expert. Is that kind of how
you expect that it should play.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I would have expected that there was, yes, a period
of assessment, both you know, physiological and psychological.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So that sounds that sounds right. I'm not sure about
the context.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I guess because they have been away from mother, grandparents,
I guess we're taking into account members of you know,
their uncles and aunties on their father's side.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Or grandparents on their father's side.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I'm not sure who is available, but I guess that
the powers that be would look or the experts, you know,
psychologists such as myself, would look at who those key
people are and how they could be introduced to the
children again without retraumatizing them. So it's a it's a
very it's a delicate situations together all of them. The children, Yes,
(04:52):
I would, Well, they've been to get they've been their
own support crew for four years that you know, obviously
the only one missing his dad, So absolutely I would
suggest that they're kept together. That would be again another insult,
adding that insult to already a very injured kind of
a situation.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So yes, I would keep them together.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I mean, the three children same genetic background, but they're
probably all very different children. They're at slightly different ages,
and they have different needs, different personality types. I mean,
one child was obviously a child that the father you know,
took with him when he went and you know, did
some pretty out there kind of stuff with regard to
(05:31):
including a child and that kind of stuff, you know,
the theft and the rakens and all the rest of it.
I guess, you know, is that what you do when
you're very desperate to survive. So you know, there would
be different perceptions that those kids would have of the
four years. They played different roles in that scenario, They
had different things that they were doing, and all the while,
(05:53):
you know, there was a lot of deprivation. There was
social deprivation, for menial deprivation. I suspect that at times
they were hungry, tired. So there's a lot to assess
in this period.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Sarah, Thank you. Was always really appreciate your expertise. Sarah Chatwin,
child psychologist from from Basically, we're gleaning things every single
time there is a press conference. And it would appear
that at this stage, even though the children were rescued
at around about this time yesterday, the mother has not
yet been granted access by ordering a tamaikey to see them,
(06:24):
and also Tom Phillips's parents haven't either. Now that at
the stage, OT is simply not answering any questions as
to whether that is standard procedure or if that has
got anything to do with the family court rulings that
have been made in the past. No idea, no idea,
what is going on. But that is the fact as
we understand it. Hither I agree. I don't want these
kids chased like the Laws and Quins or the Ingham Twins.
(06:47):
Good point, Trisha. For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive,
listen live to news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
By the way, we'll be giving you updates. There's lots
to talk about in the Phillips case that's transpired over
the last twenty four hours, or bringing all the updates
as we go through now. As I mentioned, it's going
to be a really tough road to recovery for the
recovered Phillips children. They are now in state care. Sarah
Chatwin is a child psychologist and with us Hi Sarah, Hi, Heather,
what do you, by the way, what do you think
about that the documentary idea?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm team Heather.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I think I can't imagine what the point of that is.
So a man is now dead, his children are retraumatized,
It's just a mess. I'm a psychologist and I'm in shock.
What would be the point of that documentary? Can you
tell me what the point is? Is it making.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Heroes of the police? I don't know what the.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Point are I think I think that probably was the
point originally if you think Aboutnett from a police perspective,
as to show the effort that they're making to get
this right.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And I understand, and you know, boy, they had a
big job ahead of them because it's been four years
right now, I just don't see how this has played out,
how that necessitates a documentary that's just sensationalizing a time
in our history that we just want to let go
of and allow these children to. Oh, you know, they've
(01:12):
got a lot of hurdles. It's a journey. And I
believe in the resilience of children and people generally, but
this is a biggie. You've been living a certain way
for four years. You have seen a lot of stuff
that kids shouldn't see. You have not been exposed to
social connection and interaction. You've lost a lot of time,
you've had no education, You've been living with your dad.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
You love him, he's now dead.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
And then, as you said, you know, in years to come,
you're reliving it.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I did talk about responsible reporting yesterday when I was,
you know, talking to people about what had happened. I'm
not sure that that's a responsible documentary. I understand, and
I do appreciate, and I'm sure we all do appreciate
the links that the police went to to try to
secure a better outcome than this, more peaceful outcome than this,
(02:02):
But it hasn't happened, and this is a really, really
bad time for a whole lot of people and families.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So no, I'm team here.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
All right, Sarah. I'm pleased to get your perspective on
that now from tell me after four years in the bush,
presumably having not seen your mother and your grandparents, are
these people basically strangers to you if you're twelve, nine
to eight.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Look, I definitely think there's road to recovery there, and
those people will obviously always be a part of the
children's lives. I mean, I don't know why there was
such a fracture in this family to begin with, and
why a mother wasn't more involved in the upbringing of
her children. I don't have all the facts on that,
so I'm not going to comment to that, but I
(02:46):
think that you know, there are hopefully people that are
very willing and able to be part of these children's
lives in a secure kind of a way, but for
kids to feel secure, which points us in the direction
of consistent care, unconditional love, and physical and emotional safety
(03:07):
pretty much none of which these kids have had for
a long time.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And I'm not just talking four years, but prior to.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
That, there was obviously some dispute and things going on
in a marital relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
A relationship that wasn't quite right.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
So, you know, these kids very very quickly need to
gain that sense of security, and they need consistent care,
unconditional love.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Physical and emotional safety.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
So whoever can give them that is the right person
to be put in front of them. And I'm just
not sure who that is. I'm not in possession of
those facts, and I'm not in a position to say,
you know, where they are at the moment. I guess
there's a lot of assessment going on, right.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, So what it sounds like is, judging by what
the cops are saying, they are allowing the kids to
settle wherever it is that they're settling. This is not
with the mother, it's not with the grandparents. They're settling somewhere,
and in the weeks to come, the police will only
interview them with an expert. Is that kind of how
you expect that it should play.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I would have expected that there was, yes, a period
of assessment, both you know, physiological and psychological.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So that sounds that sounds right. I'm not sure about
the context.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I guess because they have been away from mother, grandparents,
I guess we're taking into account members of you know,
their uncles and aunties on their father's side.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Or grandparents on their father's side.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I'm not sure who is available, but I guess that
the powers that be would look or the experts, you know,
psychologists such as myself, would look at who those key
people are and how they could be introduced to the
children again without retraumatizing them. So it's a it's a
very it's a delicate situations together all of them. The children, Yes,
(04:52):
I would, Well, they've been to get they've been their
own support crew for four years that you know, obviously
the only one missing his dad, So absolutely I would
suggest that they're kept together. That would be again another insult,
adding that insult to already a very injured kind of
a situation.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So yes, I would keep them together.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I mean, the three children same genetic background, but they're
probably all very different children. They're at slightly different ages,
and they have different needs, different personality types. I mean,
one child was obviously a child that the father you know,
took with him when he went and you know, did
some pretty out there kind of stuff with regard to
(05:31):
including a child and that kind of stuff, you know,
the theft and the rakens and all the rest of it.
I guess, you know, is that what you do when
you're very desperate to survive. So you know, there would
be different perceptions that those kids would have of the
four years. They played different roles in that scenario, They
had different things that they were doing, and all the while,
(05:53):
you know, there was a lot of deprivation. There was
social deprivation, for menial deprivation. I suspect that at times
they were hungry, tired. So there's a lot to assess
in this period.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Sarah, Thank you. Was always really appreciate your expertise. Sarah Chatwin,
child psychologist from from Basically, we're gleaning things every single
time there is a press conference. And it would appear
that at this stage, even though the children were rescued
at around about this time yesterday, the mother has not
yet been granted access by ordering a tamaikey to see them,
(06:24):
and also Tom Phillips's parents haven't either. Now that at
the stage, OT is simply not answering any questions as
to whether that is standard procedure or if that has
got anything to do with the family court rulings that
have been made in the past. No idea, no idea,
what is going on. But that is the fact as
we understand it. Hither I agree. I don't want these
kids chased like the Laws and Quins or the Ingham Twins.
(06:47):
Good point, Trisha. For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive,
listen live to news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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