September 3, 2025 • 7 mins
Questions have been raised over New Zealand's future in the Paris Accord, with National holding steady in support for the agreement.
Yesterday, ACT's David Seymour said New Zealand should leave unless the terms are changed, but Prime Minister Chris Luxon said backing out would mean we aren't a trusted partner on trade - and would punish our farmers.
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says the Government has no plans to pull out, and they're committed to the emissions targets.
"The reality is, is that we're a major export nation. I've just come back from Beijing on Friday, speaking with the Chinese Minister, they're committed to the Paris Agreement."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now National is holding the line on the Paris Climate
Agreement Act in New Zealand. First are both advocating for
New Zealand to quit the deal unless its conditions significantly improved.
But Prime Minister Chris Luxon says leaving Paris would be
the fastest way to hurt our farmers. Now, Simon Watts
is the National Party Climate Change Minister High Simon, Hey, yeah,
it's good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
How would it hurt our farmers?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Look, I don't believe it will hurt our farmers. The
Paris Agreement doesn't put any sanction. Well, look, we have
no plans to pull out. As a government. Were committed
to the targets and we're committed to the Paris Agreement.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Chris Luxon says, if we pull out, it would hurt
our farmers.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
How well, the reality is is that we are a
major export nation. I've just come back from Beijing on
Friday speaking with the Chinese minister that are committed to
the Paris Agreement. They expect other.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Simon, come off it. They're building coal fired plants right now.
There's and by the way, they want our protein. They
are not going to punish our if we pull out.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
No, I didn't say that. I'm just saying that they
are committed to the Paris Agreement. They're coming out with
their new NDC targets.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Like we have going to hurt us though, Well.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We're not part of the broader commitment to an international agreement,
and right now international trade is highly volatile. Well, we
are into country that wants to be putting that type
of stuff at risk.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
We're getting punished anyway, even if we are committed to
whatever globally, We've just copped tariff. So what's the point
in being part of stuff for trade reasons? I mean,
tell me, tell me, because what Chris Luxon has said
is that we get hurt if we pull out. So
how do we get hurt?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, the reality is we've got a number of our
free trade agreements and international agreements with other countries that
we export to that have considerations requirements for us to
meet our climate obligations.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
And what happens when we don't pulling out and.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
By pulling out of Paris, that we put at risk
some of those trade agreements. And to be honest here,
as an export lead recovery driven by our primary sector,
I want to.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Be putting those What happens in those trade agreements? What
triggers do they pull to punish us if we pull out.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, there's there's a variety of means that they could,
not saying that they would, but they can in terms
of the clauses, and potentially it's a reassessment of that agreement,
and a reassessment of that agreement means volatility and uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
About volatility is assignment. You're saying to me that some
of these agreements could be abandoned all together if we
pull out of out of the Paris Agreement.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
The devils and the detail in the contexts of what
countries would agree.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
In what they would do, but that in some of
those agreements too, that they could abandon the agreement all
together if we pull out of Paris.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
There is commitments within our agreements that means that we
need to remain part of those international agreements for the climate.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Is which agreements might be abandoned all together because we
pull out out of power us?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well, I'm not saying that, but I am saying you and.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
That's what you inferred. So which agreements were fall apart?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
The EU Agreement and the UK agreement have clauses within
them that means we have obligations in regards to our
climate change.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
And might either of those two yet no totally, and
might either of them be abandoned by the other party
altogether if we pull out of Paris.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I can't speak on boats in the UK the worst.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Thing, but simon, what's the worst thing that these countries
or blocks could do to us under the agreement if
we pull.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Out, Well, technically they could invoke those clauses and say
that we're in breach of those agreements and they want
to reassess that agreement, and you know that could go
as far as you know, potentially some form of sanction
or other aspects. So this is the serious stuff.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Heither in listen, I understand. I want to work through
this detail with you, okay, So let's just stick to
the matter at hand. So now let's look at where
we export. We export primarily and when we're talking about
the affected products here, let's say dairy we export primarily
to the US and China, neither of whom are going
to do this to us. So were you telling me
that we are worried about two actually quite small markets
(04:13):
being the UK and EU instead? That's what we're focusing
on as these two small markets were not so worried
about the big ones, right, the big ones are not
under threat.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Hither. I was in China in Beijing on Friday, I
was face to face with a bilateral with my counterpart,
Chinese minister. We were talking about the fact that they
needs to be part of the Paris Agreement was an
alignment between our two countries, and the minister was clear
with me that the China are now looking at the
relationship between climate change and trade as being into linkages.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
That is pretty Is there something in our sca with China.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
In regards to our climate commitments? There is commitments within
that agreement as well.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yet okay, and what could they do to us if
they decided to punish.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Us, Well, again, there was no indication that would.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Be the reason I'm asking you this.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yes, the agreements do have clauses and if they wanted
to trigger those. The reality is climate change now heither
is a trade consideration and can be used by other
countries as a trade barrier. And just with the volatility
in the trade market at the moment, the world's pretty
uncertain at the moment, and to be honest, we don't
want to be shaking the tin any here.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
We don't, I understand. But what I want to be to,
what I want to get to with this line of
questioning is what I want to understand is do the
risks that you are outlining to me outweigh the costs
that the farmers are bearing at the moment?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well, the Paris Agreement doesn't impose sanctions or financial penalties
on us as it stands, so, but the risk of
putting those trades.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I understand that. Please, I understand how this works. But
there are costs, and you know that there are costs
that farmers are bearing. However it is whether it is
through the increased cost of electricity or whatever. Do the
costs that the farmers bear is that outweighed? Which of
the two is great? The risk from us pulling out
all the costs that they're currently bearing under the thing
(06:04):
and and stand to bear.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, Look, hither the risks to our trade is a
much greater and higher risk than the implications around the
cost component that feeds through.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
How you guys want to find this? Have you quantified it?
Have you have you done the sub Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yes, we've quantified and every decision we send in the
recent one. Can I send it to you? Well, it'll
be in the public domain as part of the cabinet agreements.
But we have economic analysis and we did that when
we made the NDC agreement at the beginning of this year.
Actually we had the economic as part of that.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Really important we look at it.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I'm happy to get it to you after this all, Heather,
but it is in the public domain. I'm pretty sure.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Hey, really quickly, on another subject, when are you making
the announcement on the fix for the electricity sector?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Hey, Look, we're taking that through with cabinet. I'm in
Australia with Minister Willis right now and meeting with the
gym ministers in the Australian Treasurer today. We've got that
coming pretty soon. But we're working pretty hard. We know
that we want to I've always said that we want
to get at out quarter three, so we're aiming for
the end of September.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Good stuff, Hey, Simon, thank you. Always appreciate your time.
That Simon. What's the climate change minister? I don't know
about you, but I'm starting to think that these threats
are not real. What do you think It's just like
the worst case scenario, absolute worst case scenario. They might
punish us by triggering something in the FTA worst case scenario,
(07:33):
but probably not actually going to happen, is it?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, Listen live to
news talks they'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Now National is holding the line on the Paris Climate
Agreement Act in New Zealand. First are both advocating for
New Zealand to quit the deal unless its conditions significantly improved.
But Prime Minister Chris Luxon says leaving Paris would be
the fastest way to hurt our farmers. Now, Simon Watts
is the National Party Climate Change Minister High Simon, Hey, yeah,
it's good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
How would it hurt our farmers?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Look, I don't believe it will hurt our farmers. The
Paris Agreement doesn't put any sanction. Well, look, we have
no plans to pull out. As a government. Were committed
to the targets and we're committed to the Paris Agreement.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Chris Luxon says, if we pull out, it would hurt
our farmers.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
How well, the reality is is that we are a
major export nation. I've just come back from Beijing on
Friday speaking with the Chinese minister that are committed to
the Paris Agreement. They expect other.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Simon, come off it. They're building coal fired plants right now.
There's and by the way, they want our protein. They
are not going to punish our if we pull out.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
No, I didn't say that. I'm just saying that they
are committed to the Paris Agreement. They're coming out with
their new NDC targets.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Like we have going to hurt us though, Well.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We're not part of the broader commitment to an international agreement,
and right now international trade is highly volatile. Well, we
are into country that wants to be putting that type
of stuff at risk.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
We're getting punished anyway, even if we are committed to
whatever globally, We've just copped tariff. So what's the point
in being part of stuff for trade reasons? I mean,
tell me, tell me, because what Chris Luxon has said
is that we get hurt if we pull out. So
how do we get hurt?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, the reality is we've got a number of our
free trade agreements and international agreements with other countries that
we export to that have considerations requirements for us to
meet our climate obligations.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
And what happens when we don't pulling out and.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
By pulling out of Paris, that we put at risk
some of those trade agreements. And to be honest here,
as an export lead recovery driven by our primary sector,
I want to.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Be putting those What happens in those trade agreements? What
triggers do they pull to punish us if we pull out.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, there's there's a variety of means that they could,
not saying that they would, but they can in terms
of the clauses, and potentially it's a reassessment of that agreement,
and a reassessment of that agreement means volatility and uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
About volatility is assignment. You're saying to me that some
of these agreements could be abandoned all together if we
pull out of out of the Paris Agreement.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
The devils and the detail in the contexts of what
countries would agree.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
In what they would do, but that in some of
those agreements too, that they could abandon the agreement all
together if we pull out of Paris.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
There is commitments within our agreements that means that we
need to remain part of those international agreements for the climate.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Is which agreements might be abandoned all together because we
pull out out of power us?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well, I'm not saying that, but I am saying you and.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
That's what you inferred. So which agreements were fall apart?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
The EU Agreement and the UK agreement have clauses within
them that means we have obligations in regards to our
climate change.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
And might either of those two yet no totally, and
might either of them be abandoned by the other party
altogether if we pull out of Paris.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I can't speak on boats in the UK the worst.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Thing, but simon, what's the worst thing that these countries
or blocks could do to us under the agreement if
we pull.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Out, Well, technically they could invoke those clauses and say
that we're in breach of those agreements and they want
to reassess that agreement, and you know that could go
as far as you know, potentially some form of sanction
or other aspects. So this is the serious stuff.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Heither in listen, I understand. I want to work through
this detail with you, okay, So let's just stick to
the matter at hand. So now let's look at where
we export. We export primarily and when we're talking about
the affected products here, let's say dairy we export primarily
to the US and China, neither of whom are going
to do this to us. So were you telling me
that we are worried about two actually quite small markets
(04:13):
being the UK and EU instead? That's what we're focusing
on as these two small markets were not so worried
about the big ones, right, the big ones are not
under threat.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Hither. I was in China in Beijing on Friday, I
was face to face with a bilateral with my counterpart,
Chinese minister. We were talking about the fact that they
needs to be part of the Paris Agreement was an
alignment between our two countries, and the minister was clear
with me that the China are now looking at the
relationship between climate change and trade as being into linkages.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
That is pretty Is there something in our sca with China.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
In regards to our climate commitments? There is commitments within
that agreement as well.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yet okay, and what could they do to us if
they decided to punish.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Us, Well, again, there was no indication that would.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Be the reason I'm asking you this.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yes, the agreements do have clauses and if they wanted
to trigger those. The reality is climate change now heither
is a trade consideration and can be used by other
countries as a trade barrier. And just with the volatility
in the trade market at the moment, the world's pretty
uncertain at the moment, and to be honest, we don't
want to be shaking the tin any here.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
We don't, I understand. But what I want to be to,
what I want to get to with this line of
questioning is what I want to understand is do the
risks that you are outlining to me outweigh the costs
that the farmers are bearing at the moment?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well, the Paris Agreement doesn't impose sanctions or financial penalties
on us as it stands, so, but the risk of
putting those trades.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I understand that. Please, I understand how this works. But
there are costs, and you know that there are costs
that farmers are bearing. However it is whether it is
through the increased cost of electricity or whatever. Do the
costs that the farmers bear is that outweighed? Which of
the two is great? The risk from us pulling out
all the costs that they're currently bearing under the thing
(06:04):
and and stand to bear.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, Look, hither the risks to our trade is a
much greater and higher risk than the implications around the
cost component that feeds through.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
How you guys want to find this? Have you quantified it?
Have you have you done the sub Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yes, we've quantified and every decision we send in the
recent one. Can I send it to you? Well, it'll
be in the public domain as part of the cabinet agreements.
But we have economic analysis and we did that when
we made the NDC agreement at the beginning of this year.
Actually we had the economic as part of that.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Really important we look at it.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I'm happy to get it to you after this all, Heather,
but it is in the public domain. I'm pretty sure.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Hey, really quickly, on another subject, when are you making
the announcement on the fix for the electricity sector?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Hey, Look, we're taking that through with cabinet. I'm in
Australia with Minister Willis right now and meeting with the
gym ministers in the Australian Treasurer today. We've got that
coming pretty soon. But we're working pretty hard. We know
that we want to I've always said that we want
to get at out quarter three, so we're aiming for
the end of September.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Good stuff, Hey, Simon, thank you. Always appreciate your time.
That Simon. What's the climate change minister? I don't know
about you, but I'm starting to think that these threats
are not real. What do you think It's just like
the worst case scenario, absolute worst case scenario. They might
punish us by triggering something in the FTA worst case scenario,
(07:33):
but probably not actually going to happen, is it?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, Listen live to
news talks they'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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