Sir Peter Gluckman: former Chief Science Advisor on the seven Crown Research Institutes merging into three mega science groups

There's belief the science sector is on the right track with a major overhaul.

Seven Crown Research Institutes will now merge into three public research organisations.

Another public research group is also being created to focus on AI and advanced technology, with Callaghan Innovation set to close.

The moves follows a review by the Science System Advisory Group.

Former Chief Science Advisor Sir Peter Gluckman says the changes follow around 80 percent of his recommendations.

"Strategy must precede operations, and what this first report - and how the Government's responded to it - is about getting the architecture of the system right."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So the government has announced a restructure of the seven
Crown Research Institute, so they're going to be merged into
three public research organizations and a fourth public research organization
will be established to focus on advanced technology. But the
government agency Callahan Innovation will be shut down as part
of these reforms. So is this good or bad? The

(00:21):
shutdown of a innovative agency, the Callahan Innovation Agency. Someone
who may very well know is the former Chief Science
Advisor to the Prime Minister, Sir Peter Gluckman, who joins
you now. Hello, Peter, Hi Andrew. You've just done this
review and the report was released today and what did
you find?

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Well, the review looked at the whole architectures on science
and innovation system and make the set of recommendations from
what happens at the level of cabinet right through to
the whole of the sciences and the whole of the
innovation system, and then the bits that the cabinets made

(01:02):
decisions about already. I would say that about a eighty
to ninety percent alignment between our report and what government's
decided it. So I'm very impressed with the decisions they've made.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
But it is fair to say that When it was
first suggested that there were going to be these changes
to these science funds, there was a bit of a
shock and horror because people believe that we need to
fund science publicly as well because science is good and
science can then be monetized if it is good science.
So are these moves by the government going to help science?

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yes they are, But I mean, I mean strategy must
proceed operations and what this first report about and how
the government's responded to it's about getting the architecture of
the system right. We are obviously working and we have
a second phase of our work to do, which then
government must consider, which will deal with more of the

(02:00):
operational details.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Does your report find that more government investment needs to
go into science, not less.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Of course. I mean, I think the internetal evidence on
that is robust, and I think our report RESPEC makes
that point, But it also says we've got to get
the architecture and the basics of it right if we're
going to maximize these yis advantage from knowledge. I mean,
I'm very pleased, for example, that we're going to have

(02:28):
that the areas advanced technology which have been not well
invested in New Zealand and now identified as a priority.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Good. Yes, And you've been watching the sector closely, and
you've been involved in and you've been advising the Prime
Minister and so you know all this stuff. The government
wants to make sure the four new organizations are spending
taxpayers money the best way possible to grow the economy.
So in your experience watching the sector, was this not
happening already?

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, there were a number of barriers. There were significant
barriers which our report described in some detail, which the
governments also picked up in its announcements, between knowledge being
generated in universities and CRIS and knowledge being able to
be exploited. There are issues over what we call technology transfer,

(03:17):
their issues over intellectual property, the whole lot of issues there,
and we've emphasized and the report and some of the
government decisions are about actually addressing those barriers. That's key. Secondly,
we've actually had a rather incowit public research system where
there's lots of duplication competition between CRIS where because of

(03:43):
the model they've had to operate under the incentives they've
worked to and I'm not criticizing the boards, they do
work to the incentives they have. We've got duplication, we've
got gaps, we haven't got a strategic overside over the system,
whether it cannot possibly be the best way to spend

(04:04):
the taxpayers money to advance New Zealand's interests.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
And having four organizations, will there still be enough competition
between them just to write them up?

Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well, what are we competing for. We're trying to actually
develop knowledge which then gets translated to use by the public,
by companies and by the government. The government itself is
the big user of knowledge. And we've got to be
careful what we're talking about here. We want high quality
and we want competition to ensure the quality of the research.

(04:35):
But do we need three cris all doing aquaculture for
example or whatever. Far better to get critical mass so
we can do things well, properly and quickly.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
So from you looking at it, the four organizations aren't
going to be stepping on each other's feet.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Well, let's be key, there is really only we're talking
about two really too, because ESR never really functioned in
the same way as other as other cris. ESR has
always been a support of the health system and the
police system as a service laboratory with some R and
D capacity it needs to be managed separately because it's

(05:16):
a client, either police and the client and the health ministry. Okay,
I saw in a say that's different. The Advanced Technology
Institute is new. We have nothing in that space at
the present time. And what we've done, what the government
has done is aggregated and there need to be something
about the detail the CRIS that are in the life sciences,

(05:39):
the CRIS and the environmental sciences to work better together.
I mean, it's a logical development.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
We also saw in his State of the Nation's speech
that Christopher Laxa was saying that scientists should be motivated
to come up with good innovations by being able to
share in the monetization of those innovations going forward. Is
this a good thing?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Well, at the moment is an extraordinary different University staff
in most of the unit I think in all our
universities can benefit when IP is monetarized in different ways,
but CRI staff are not. Now is that fear? Is
that appropriate? In most parts of the world, all researchers

(06:24):
can benefit from the f intellectual efforts. The incentive is
not there if you cannot get a benefit from making
development discoveries and an entrepreneurship. If you look at Israel's, Singapore, Finland, Denmark, Ireland,
every small country we compare ourself to it does this

(06:46):
far better than we do. It's also problematic and that
New Zealand has far more of its research activity in
research institutes than as a relative proportion of the total
research exercise as other countries. And all of these things
have been factors that lead to New Zealand being not
as productive as it could possibly be in the knowledge world.

(07:09):
And remember, and we all know that the future of
every country and the advanced world requires it to be
at the frontiers of knowledge.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Well, it's very good news that we've still got your
eyes casting your eyes over everything. That's very reassuring. And
i'd like to thank you for your time today and
your experience and obviously your knowledge. Sir Peter Blackman, thank
you so very very much.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
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